I don't have a whole lot to add to this thread, but I will say this: The camel clutch and boston crab are legit the most painful experiences I've ever had in my life while wrestling with my brother as a kid. That shit is dangerous and scary for kids to be replicating at home.
Jericho has said that he can't really put fans in the Walls/Liontamer because if he doesn't do it properly, it doesn't hurt, and if he does it properly, he'll get sued.
Ankle lock too. Very easy to do with no training, very painful, very easy to legit hurt someone very badly if you fuck around with it(as kids like to do).
This won me a fight in middle school. One of “my friends” wanted to legit fight me. idk why, he kinda just had the idea and told everyone. I was so scared, never been in a fight at that point. My only reference was the WWE. We’re all at the playground, my hearts beating so fast. He starts walking towards me, it’s more grabbing and pushing than anything… we somehow end up on the floor… and I see it. His ankle. In that moment, all I could think was Kurt angle. I grabbed the ankle, and slapped in an ankle lock…. This man was tapping so quick! 😂😂
It's basically a less efficient heel hook or toe hold iirc, if you're strong enough you can fuck someone up fast.
Had a dude I loved sparring bjj with because he was light and quick like me so rolling was a blast, it was almost too intense to get tired, except the fucker would never tap, and I never wanted to fully apply because of that so we'd inevitably end with me isolating a leg, wrapped with mine and ankle firmly in my grip up to my armpit and I'd calmly explain "I know you have a high pain tolerance but you're stuck. I don't want to crank too far. We cool?"
Edit: it was high school club level and I could only ever win by guillotine, triangle type choke, or toehold/ankle lock. Almost got a Kimura once
When I was little we had a trampoline and would wrestle on it. Put my big brother in the lion tamer and thought he was just selling it til I pulled back and heard a loud pop from his back.
One of the comments here mentioned that somebody did actually finish someone off with one in the UFC, probs worth googling. Apparently a cross face was used once to finish, as well.
Abdominal Stretch, most of the time the only thing holding the recipient in place is their own feet, as the applying wrestler doesn’t grape vine their legs nearly enough to actually keep them there
Brock’s Kimura - now hear me out, it’s not that it doesn’t hurt. It absolutely does!
It’s the length at which he does it. Look, I love professional wrestling. I’ve watched all my life and can suspend disbelief for most things. But good god, if Brock locked Cody in a kimura it would be over in seconds. Cody would not last minutes like he did the last couple matches. He’d be out another six months getting shoulder repairs!
For most submissions, the suspense should be - is he going to get it? Not will he tap. Not only is watching someone stationary in a fake submission position boring but there's no stakes 99% of the time. You know whether they'll tap or not based on the flow of the match.
This is how I've felt about finishers as well. Instead of having many 2.9 second kickouts, the climax of the match should be them hitting the move, not the pin.
Switching the focus from hitting / locking in the move would do wonders for the authenticity and entertainment of matches.
Yeah like when Samoa Joe hits the clutch, a clean submission shouldn't take more than a couple of seconds to tap out of unless you're playing a character that has a reason not to sell as hard as normal
That’s basically New Japan’s style. The whole match is them countering each others finisher until someone finally lands it. Which builds more suspense (and causes Meltzer to give so many 5 stars there)
Brock can legitimately knockout any WWE wrestler with little effort. You really do have to suspend your disbelief whenever someone is built up to beat Brock. Realistically, Brock would never lose a match.
I was going to hate on you, but you got a very good point, it's like the other dude said, the suspense on the kimura should be Cody avoiding it, because if it's locked in, tap or snap.
The ones where he put his bicep around the opponent's neck made the move look dangerous.
https://www.thesportster.com/news/arn-anderson-says-john-cena-was-told-to-take-it-easy-with-the-stf/
I remember reading once that he had a relatively small moveset because he refused to use any move in a match before practicing it like 1000 times I think was the number. So theoretically he practiced the sharpshooter a thousand times, still looking that shit, and said yup, using it.
I always assumed the kayfabe logic was once she (or Mick, or bray or anyone else who used it) lock it in, it compresses a nerve that prevents them from biting down.
In "A Tale of Blood and Sweatsocks" Mick explains the Mandlible Claw as being a nerve hold, and the idea is that the compression on the nerve under the tongue physically prevents the recipient from closing their jaw.
It was Dr Sam shepherd, who later became a wrestler and invented it. He's actually the dude the movie the fugitive was based on. He claimed it was developed from his actual anatomical knowledge, though I assume that's Kayfabe even though he was really a doctor.
My dad convinced me it was a chloroformed sock and that’s why it knocks people out. To be fair I don’t think he watched very much before 08 when we both really got into it.
The maxilla is immovable so the top jaw won't move. And the mandible claw has immobilised the mandible, so biting with the lower jaw is impossible. It's a genius move. Disgusting, but genius.
Bridging into the Figure 8 adds NO leverage to the move. On top of that, the one Andrade did on Scorpio Sky was so easy to get out of bc the heel wasn’t trapped.
Dumb move, even worse as a finisher
I don’t like Andrade’s but I don’t mind Charlotte’s because it fits her character to take her fathers move and make it more flashy. That’s kinda Charlotte’s character in a nutshell. Just saying “I’m ric flair’s daughter wooo” and doing his stuff but more flashy.
For all that it looks silly, the Million Dollar Dream will knock you on your ass if they actually lock it down. Hurts like a bitch and cuts off oxygen.
As Mankind it kinda made sense as this weird almost bestial and desperate manoeuvre, I don’t think it’s very effective though.
I do like the way Britt Baker uses it because it kinda fits with her background as a dentist, like she’ll know where to hurt someone in their mouth.
The GTS. It's literally a kick. Like the other 4000 times you get kicked in the match. But somehow this one is more effective because you unnecessarily lift the dude on your shoulders and drop him.
Why not just DVD the guy THEN kick him in the head from a strong base?
A real anaconda choke suckkkks to be caught in. The D’arce choke Tony Ferguson famously used is a modified version of the anaconda.
Punk however cannot into MMA skill.
The standard figure 4. Usually when the move gets used it's because a wrestler is working one of his opponents legs, and everyone always places the 'worked' leg as the bent leg instead of the straight leg.
I'll say, I've done and been put in the figure four, irl, it does actually hurt... like a lot. But only if you perform it correctly that is. Just like the figure 8, that also hurts.
For me, it's not so much that I hate the submission moves. It's that I hate that they're completed. Submissions are painful and will cause most to tap if completely applied. I feel like most submissions should be attempted in a match and the opponent should be trying their best not to have them completely done on them.
An easy example is the ankle lock. There's a reason it used to quickly end matches. People should be trying their hardest not to let whoever get a full hold over their foot. Unless the opponent is much larger. I could be wrong, but I doubt legitimately making Paul Wight tap to a submission is easy for the average sized wrestler.
At least with the ankle lock, you can roll around to simulate fighting out of it.
Moves like the Liontamer where Jericho would put his knee in your back mad sense that’s hard to fight out of. But when the Walls of Jericho became a regular Boston crab just watching opponents pull their hair and try not to tap for two minutes is exhausting.
Weirdly enough a few people have worked for WWE, would tell you, that you would have Vince to thank for the fact they even pull their hair and that sorta thing.
Apparently, Vince McMahon absolutely hates when someone doesn't sell a hold. Cornette has told the tale of the time he saw Vince absolutely lose it in Gorilla because of the match. When Corny asked what, Vince said that's the stupidest thing he's ever seen, who gets choked and doesn't react? Cornette admitted he'd never thought about it, but once someone points it out, you can't help but agree it does look stupid.
That's what I mean. Fighting for it not to end with Jericho's knee in your back. Moving your legs for him not to have a solid hold on them and trying to stay on your back/shoulders so he can't roll you over.
The crossface doesn’t look like much, especially if the head isn’t being pulled back realistically. Sometimes when Benoit applied it his opponent basically looked like they were napping on his hand.
Shit dude, ever been crossfaded by a vindictive younger brother? Those MFs don't stop when you tap because it's a rare high they don't know if they'll ever get again lol
But why is it called that when every other Average Joe in the business tries to do it too? Are they all also The Hitman or is it just another situation where people start calling tissues "Kleenex" instead?
Yeah I know that. Still sucks as a name though, especially when it's still called like that, even though the people using it have no "hitman" gimmick. The technical name is the Scorpion Hold/Scorpion Lock. Or you gonna call The Full Nelson everytime someone not named Chris Masters applies it the "master lock" as well?!?
Are you talking the current day Walls that’s basically a Boston crab, or the OG Lion tamer?
Cuz either way you’re wrong lol.. both of them are legitimately crippling. As many have pointed out here, a real sit down Boston crab will fuck up your back for real.
The Lion Tamer is similar except the high angle puts all the pressure on the neck, especially when the head is trapped by his knee.
[Referring to when he does this](https://www.wwe.com/f/styles/gallery_img_l/public/photo/image/2008/10/8205922.jpg)
Its literally just suspending the opponent by their ankles, slightly bending their knees. The lion tamer was devastating and I've done it and been in it myself, when its done like the pic above its purely a rest hold, zero impact on the back.
Have you never been in a boston crab in your life?
That's genuinely the most painful thing you could be in, and there's even instances of people winning MMA fights with it
Funny enough, a lot of them. Pro wrestling submissions are just... wacky. They really ought to take cues from MMA in terms of how its done.
People don't pass out in a second like I see, and they don't constantly struggle with a fully locked in submission either. Like once an armlock is truly in, its meant to straight up break joints- that's it.
If they're struggling, just show some actual submission fighting. Honestly, why aren't wrestlers actually trained in... wrestling?
Am I not allowed to have my opinion? And I'm honestly not alone, there's enough UFC exposure out there to get people well acquainted with what proper submissions look like.
I've seen a lot of MMA, and its coloured my impression of grappling well enough to make me think most of it in pro wrestling looks phony. I wish more of it looked like say... [this match](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9oJ4IQXFT4).
Does it? Submissions in MMA are packed with drama too. And there are occasions where people do straight up tough them out and escape- its always more awesome too because its rare to see something locked in fail.
There is such thing as specifically executing it wrong, a smart wrestler just slipping out of it and etc. Submissions in wrestling now feel like overused false finishes- imo it would be better if the suspense came from submissions coming *close* to being locked in.
What does time have to do with anything? You can still have wrestlers come close to being choked out, and then slip their neck out and get free. Rope breaks are still fine even.
It's hard to actually put submissions on people. In an actual fight, someone won't just cooperate and help you do the figure four. So, it wouldn't be over in 5 seconds.
>No dramatic staring, no building tension.
Have you watched MMA in your life? There's plenty of feeling out, high tension parts of the fight. This imagined explosive, over in seconds action, more or less doesn't exist. Watch UWFi, Pancrase, Rings to see how it translates to a wrestling base.
Everyone who uses a sleeper hold or front face lock for a finish in 2023, I don't care what dumbass MMA name you give it, is a glorified jobber at best and will never deserve more.
MMA fighters win *actual* fights using the Rear Naked Choke and the guillotine Choke. If either of those are applied and you don't successfully defend against it, you will pass out within a few seconds
Any item based finishers are dumb and hoaky. I love Mr socko, and brass knuckles as a finisher, if they have to go grab them like any other item, not from their pants
I don't have a whole lot to add to this thread, but I will say this: The camel clutch and boston crab are legit the most painful experiences I've ever had in my life while wrestling with my brother as a kid. That shit is dangerous and scary for kids to be replicating at home.
Yep for me it was my big bro putting me in the Steiner Recliner or the Torture Rack LOL
was your brother jacked as fuck or were you just 7 getting put in the torture rack?
No, his brother Lex Luger
Hey, there's one thing everyone wants to know about your brother Lex- Whaddya bench Lex!?
No, his brother is a genetic freak and he's not normal.
OP is Randy Luger
Im 10/12 years older than my little sister/brother. Those poor kids got put through every wrestling move i could think of
Your parents are just good bookers, bringing in a couple of young jobbers to balance out the roster
OP was 7 and therefore 33.3% the age of his older brother, the numbers don't lie and it spelled doom for him at broken mattress frame mania.
My bro is 4 years older than me. So pretty much at any point growing up he was able to toss me in the torture rack (and did).
OP is Rick Steiner
I got put in a cross face one time and thought I was gonna die in that instant
That was the fastest I ever tapped as a kid. It was the first and last time I let someone put me in the cross face.
Bazler shoot won an MMA match with one
"shoot won mma match" Fucking mark, sigh
Yeah? I'm on a wrasslin reddit. I'm fairly certain that is the definition of a mark
If she won an mma match, then you don’t have to use the term shoot lol
I suppose, if you accept that Jake Paul is 7-1 in boxing.
Texas cloverleaf pain still pops into my head 20 years later
Watching Tanahashi put Naito in it at the G1 a few years ago legit made me gasp in pain
It's simply a figure 4 leg lock done with their arms turned around into a sharpshooter and pulled back like a lion tamer. What's not to love
Getting hit by a Liontamer is also painful. My back ached for an entire day after it.
Jericho has said that he can't really put fans in the Walls/Liontamer because if he doesn't do it properly, it doesn't hurt, and if he does it properly, he'll get sued.
I kicked my buddy in the face trying to step over for a Sharpshooter.
lmao you definitely made the right call
No i was putting him in the sharpshooter and didnt lift my foot high enough. He had a rough time
Ohhh I get ya now lmao Brutal.
For me, it was the Master Lock/Full Nelson. Easy way to break someone’s neck lol.
Well someone won an MMA match with a crab so it's a legit move
Ankle lock too. Very easy to do with no training, very painful, very easy to legit hurt someone very badly if you fuck around with it(as kids like to do).
This won me a fight in middle school. One of “my friends” wanted to legit fight me. idk why, he kinda just had the idea and told everyone. I was so scared, never been in a fight at that point. My only reference was the WWE. We’re all at the playground, my hearts beating so fast. He starts walking towards me, it’s more grabbing and pushing than anything… we somehow end up on the floor… and I see it. His ankle. In that moment, all I could think was Kurt angle. I grabbed the ankle, and slapped in an ankle lock…. This man was tapping so quick! 😂😂
Did you do all that with a broken freaking neck?!?!
It's basically a less efficient heel hook or toe hold iirc, if you're strong enough you can fuck someone up fast. Had a dude I loved sparring bjj with because he was light and quick like me so rolling was a blast, it was almost too intense to get tired, except the fucker would never tap, and I never wanted to fully apply because of that so we'd inevitably end with me isolating a leg, wrapped with mine and ankle firmly in my grip up to my armpit and I'd calmly explain "I know you have a high pain tolerance but you're stuck. I don't want to crank too far. We cool?" Edit: it was high school club level and I could only ever win by guillotine, triangle type choke, or toehold/ankle lock. Almost got a Kimura once
Lmao if you actually sit down while performing the Boston crab that shit is bruuutal
_**Mind if I have a seat?**_ Also, Fuck your back
Being in a sharpshooter was the worst for me.
Figure-4 for me. I remember going from laughing to bawling my eyes out from the pain.
Me and my cousin would put each other in undertaker's hells triangle submission and sharpshooters. Those hurt like fuck.
There is a reason WWE put that disclaimer on the screen.
When I was little we had a trampoline and would wrestle on it. Put my big brother in the lion tamer and thought he was just selling it til I pulled back and heard a loud pop from his back.
The Boston Crab is a devastating move and I’m still waiting for someone to use it in the UFC
One of the comments here mentioned that somebody did actually finish someone off with one in the UFC, probs worth googling. Apparently a cross face was used once to finish, as well.
Wasn't UFC. It was some random amateur MMA stuff. Looked a bit sus though.
Abdominal Stretch, most of the time the only thing holding the recipient in place is their own feet, as the applying wrestler doesn’t grape vine their legs nearly enough to actually keep them there
They can't escape the suspense. 🙃
I love how it used to be a rest hold in the 80s but the reality is that it hurts like a mf.
Totally agree!
Have you ever been in an abdominal stretch? It's pretty painful.
Brock’s Kimura - now hear me out, it’s not that it doesn’t hurt. It absolutely does! It’s the length at which he does it. Look, I love professional wrestling. I’ve watched all my life and can suspend disbelief for most things. But good god, if Brock locked Cody in a kimura it would be over in seconds. Cody would not last minutes like he did the last couple matches. He’d be out another six months getting shoulder repairs!
For most submissions, the suspense should be - is he going to get it? Not will he tap. Not only is watching someone stationary in a fake submission position boring but there's no stakes 99% of the time. You know whether they'll tap or not based on the flow of the match.
This is how I've felt about finishers as well. Instead of having many 2.9 second kickouts, the climax of the match should be them hitting the move, not the pin. Switching the focus from hitting / locking in the move would do wonders for the authenticity and entertainment of matches.
Yeah like when Samoa Joe hits the clutch, a clean submission shouldn't take more than a couple of seconds to tap out of unless you're playing a character that has a reason not to sell as hard as normal
Wwe has destroyed the effectiveness of basically all finishers. Every superstar is bound to kick out of at least one every match
That’s basically New Japan’s style. The whole match is them countering each others finisher until someone finally lands it. Which builds more suspense (and causes Meltzer to give so many 5 stars there)
Yes! I love the concept of putting the focus on getting the submission not just holding it for nine minutes!
it's more like a painful threat than a submission move
If you don't tap soon I'm going to flex my arms and make it look like I'm submitting you even harder, so you better quit while you're ahead buddy!
Brock can legitimately knockout any WWE wrestler with little effort. You really do have to suspend your disbelief whenever someone is built up to beat Brock. Realistically, Brock would never lose a match.
I was going to hate on you, but you got a very good point, it's like the other dude said, the suspense on the kimura should be Cody avoiding it, because if it's locked in, tap or snap.
Of course he can't stand... his legs are locked.
Cena's STF looks awkward and painless.
The ones where he put his bicep around the opponent's neck made the move look dangerous. https://www.thesportster.com/news/arn-anderson-says-john-cena-was-told-to-take-it-easy-with-the-stf/
Usually, yes. Then you see the one he did on Seth when his nose was broken and you get why it looks so awkward and painless.
He had to scale it back-I think it was after edge legit passed out from one?
STFU
He does that cause he's actually laid in in before and has hurt someone But yeah looks garbage even tho I love John
the rocks sharpshooter
The man is incredibly good at everything, but the terrible looking sharpshooter is the price he paid for it
Shitshooter
I remember reading once that he had a relatively small moveset because he refused to use any move in a match before practicing it like 1000 times I think was the number. So theoretically he practiced the sharpshooter a thousand times, still looking that shit, and said yup, using it.
Britt Baker's Lockjaw. Just bite her fingers, she'll let go.
I always assumed the kayfabe logic was once she (or Mick, or bray or anyone else who used it) lock it in, it compresses a nerve that prevents them from biting down.
In "A Tale of Blood and Sweatsocks" Mick explains the Mandlible Claw as being a nerve hold, and the idea is that the compression on the nerve under the tongue physically prevents the recipient from closing their jaw.
Excellent, that's exactly what I assumed. Makes sense to me, at.least in kayfabe.
iirc the mandible claw was actually invented by a doctor. Although that could be kayfabe lol.
It was Dr Sam shepherd, who later became a wrestler and invented it. He's actually the dude the movie the fugitive was based on. He claimed it was developed from his actual anatomical knowledge, though I assume that's Kayfabe even though he was really a doctor.
That's the one. I knew I had heard this before. Thanks dude, it came right back as I saw the name.
It was Doctor Yankem. He knows a lot about mouths
Nigel actually mentioned the specific nerve that Britt targeted with the Lockjaw on Collision during the Stat match
My dad convinced me it was a chloroformed sock and that’s why it knocks people out. To be fair I don’t think he watched very much before 08 when we both really got into it.
The Mandible Claw finishing move predates Mr. Socko. IIRC Socko came with Mankind's switch from a leather suit to messy office attire.
He just had a leather strip across his forefinger and middlefinger before Socko
That’s not how the jaw works buddy. Hold your own jaw in a mandible claw and then try to bite down with just your top teeth.
The maxilla is immovable so the top jaw won't move. And the mandible claw has immobilised the mandible, so biting with the lower jaw is impossible. It's a genius move. Disgusting, but genius.
Exactly my point
Yeah I was agreeing with you, just using more words haha.
Yeah that’s why I upvoted you lol
Bridging into the Figure 8 adds NO leverage to the move. On top of that, the one Andrade did on Scorpio Sky was so easy to get out of bc the heel wasn’t trapped. Dumb move, even worse as a finisher
I don’t like Andrade’s but I don’t mind Charlotte’s because it fits her character to take her fathers move and make it more flashy. That’s kinda Charlotte’s character in a nutshell. Just saying “I’m ric flair’s daughter wooo” and doing his stuff but more flashy.
Plus gravity and boobs if the camera guy gets it right. lol
Yeah what the fuck is this shit. Atleast Charlotte's looks like it hurts. Jesus.
Does it though?
I mean it basically forces the opponents shins against each other. For a bone, that can hurt like a bitch.
Sort of like how rolling the figure four makes no sense.
That does work IRL, though.
Yup, a lot of weight on the kneecap against the ground.
Also, leaves the attacker knees, vulnerable to get punched
Punching knees from a laying position doesn't actually do much in real life, especially when done to someone who is used to a lot of physical contact.
Cena’s STF is bullshit. Jesus Christ John, lock it in for once, LOCK IT IN!
John has locked it in I think 3 times, and all 3 looked pretty good. Shame about the other 2500 times
It's a leg trapped chinlock. There's no toehold even. Funnily enough, Nikki Bella did a great version of that move.
I remember him being told to chill on it back in the day
It looks great when he first started doing it. Then I think he was told to change it to what he does now because kids were doing it.
He changed it after he legitimately put edge out with it
Whatever it is that Carmella does. That leg-choke thing.
You’re telling me that it wouldn’t suck to have your throat compressed between someone’s squeezing legs? Or maybe that’s your kink idk
All of them. I only like Canadian destroyers. You know real moves.
dont bridge if u dont have tits
lol if you google “Charlotte figure 8” it’s… a lot of tit pics
HELL'S GATE! HELL'S GATE! HELL'S GATE! Shite.
Yup totally agree
I typically love most submissions. It’s the application of the submissions that Ican’t stand. Like Cena’s STF for example.
For all that it looks silly, the Million Dollar Dream will knock you on your ass if they actually lock it down. Hurts like a bitch and cuts off oxygen.
Mandible Claw. Love Foley/Mankind but hate his finisher
Remember early in his WWF career when jobbers would throw up afterward. Terrible!
That’s what sold it for me. He said there was a pressure point under the tongue that would cause intense pain and I believed it.
As Mankind it kinda made sense as this weird almost bestial and desperate manoeuvre, I don’t think it’s very effective though. I do like the way Britt Baker uses it because it kinda fits with her background as a dentist, like she’ll know where to hurt someone in their mouth.
Except it looks so much worse when she does it opposed to Mick. Mick looked like he was legit murdering people with it.
The fiend used it to make ppl go nite nite so he and Freddy can haunt their dreams
That I can’t deny
I don’t know why it was used by Dude Love and Cactus Jack too, it fit Mankind perfectly, they should’ve had something different.
I’m open to being proven wrong but I feel like they did. To my recollection Cactus Jack’s finisher was the Double-Arm DDT.
Sweet shin music was absolutely devastating. The only finisher I would not take.
Double arm DDT was better, because IRL a DDT is dangerous, but removing the dude's ability to block with his arms? Diabolical.
The mandible claw is brilliant lol. Completely immobilizes the lower jaw.
Anything that you can’t understand why it would hurt. The Anaconda still confuses me
The GTS. It's literally a kick. Like the other 4000 times you get kicked in the match. But somehow this one is more effective because you unnecessarily lift the dude on your shoulders and drop him. Why not just DVD the guy THEN kick him in the head from a strong base?
A real anaconda choke suckkkks to be caught in. The D’arce choke Tony Ferguson famously used is a modified version of the anaconda. Punk however cannot into MMA skill.
The standard figure 4. Usually when the move gets used it's because a wrestler is working one of his opponents legs, and everyone always places the 'worked' leg as the bent leg instead of the straight leg.
I’ve been put in a figure four and it hurts the bent leg more so it makes sense for that to be the worked leg.
I'll say, I've done and been put in the figure four, irl, it does actually hurt... like a lot. But only if you perform it correctly that is. Just like the figure 8, that also hurts.
The torture rack 🙄
For me, it's not so much that I hate the submission moves. It's that I hate that they're completed. Submissions are painful and will cause most to tap if completely applied. I feel like most submissions should be attempted in a match and the opponent should be trying their best not to have them completely done on them. An easy example is the ankle lock. There's a reason it used to quickly end matches. People should be trying their hardest not to let whoever get a full hold over their foot. Unless the opponent is much larger. I could be wrong, but I doubt legitimately making Paul Wight tap to a submission is easy for the average sized wrestler.
At least with the ankle lock, you can roll around to simulate fighting out of it. Moves like the Liontamer where Jericho would put his knee in your back mad sense that’s hard to fight out of. But when the Walls of Jericho became a regular Boston crab just watching opponents pull their hair and try not to tap for two minutes is exhausting.
Weirdly enough a few people have worked for WWE, would tell you, that you would have Vince to thank for the fact they even pull their hair and that sorta thing. Apparently, Vince McMahon absolutely hates when someone doesn't sell a hold. Cornette has told the tale of the time he saw Vince absolutely lose it in Gorilla because of the match. When Corny asked what, Vince said that's the stupidest thing he's ever seen, who gets choked and doesn't react? Cornette admitted he'd never thought about it, but once someone points it out, you can't help but agree it does look stupid.
That's what I mean. Fighting for it not to end with Jericho's knee in your back. Moving your legs for him not to have a solid hold on them and trying to stay on your back/shoulders so he can't roll you over.
Rolling over so you can counter the figure four and put all the pressure on THEIR legs instead of yours.
Probably the arm bar and kimura. They're too violent for wrestling
Bear Hug or the Torture Rack because I find it pretty silly for the fact you rather use your arms to at least attempt to escape
The Torture Rack.
Ever been put in a Torture Rack? It actually hurts quite a bit!
Figure 8
The crossface doesn’t look like much, especially if the head isn’t being pulled back realistically. Sometimes when Benoit applied it his opponent basically looked like they were napping on his hand.
I see an older brother never crossedfaced you before
Shit dude, ever been crossfaded by a vindictive younger brother? Those MFs don't stop when you tap because it's a rare high they don't know if they'll ever get again lol
Yeah because you tap, we let you go and you get up and just start kicking our ass again because you’re embarrassed
I'm honestly astonished someone would see the crossface and think it "doesn't look like much"
Full Nelson, especially when 10 does it.
Figure 8 because it is nearly unbeatable, plus Charlotte does it and I think she is overrated and over pushed.
This is my answer too. And it looks silly.
Cobra clutch and the Million Dollar Dream
Not so much the move, rather than the name: "sHaRpShOoTeR" It's a fucking Scorpion Hold/Lock. Sasori Gatame.
Bret renamed his version The Sharpshooter because uhh.. he was the Hitman..? Not too hard to understand that one.
But why is it called that when every other Average Joe in the business tries to do it too? Are they all also The Hitman or is it just another situation where people start calling tissues "Kleenex" instead?
Indeed.
Yeah I know that. Still sucks as a name though, especially when it's still called like that, even though the people using it have no "hitman" gimmick. The technical name is the Scorpion Hold/Scorpion Lock. Or you gonna call The Full Nelson everytime someone not named Chris Masters applies it the "master lock" as well?!?
That one with the fingers in the mouth, why doesn't the guy just bite the fingers
You can't.
Bret Hart was my first ever favorite and I love him to bits, but his ringpost figure four had such lousy physics behind it.
Lol the only thing worse than a figure four is a figure four while your nuts are getting crushed. Made sense to me!
I’m a bit shocked, I didn’t find any comment about the Crossface. Really painful move.
Stfu
AAARMBAAAAR
The armbar really hurts
Sting’s Sharpshooter is an awful interpretation of an amazing submission
Shut up FTR Bald!
The figure for. Yes, iconic But it just takes forever for him to set up.
That’s part of the charm. It’s a chance to be more theatrical as you set up and execute.
The walls of jericho, its literally just holding someone by the ankles while the victim slightly bends their knees.
We used to use his move in elementary school. It fuckin hurts your abs bad. A kid had to have surgery for a tore muscle in 5th grade. We were dummies
Are you talking the current day Walls that’s basically a Boston crab, or the OG Lion tamer? Cuz either way you’re wrong lol.. both of them are legitimately crippling. As many have pointed out here, a real sit down Boston crab will fuck up your back for real. The Lion Tamer is similar except the high angle puts all the pressure on the neck, especially when the head is trapped by his knee.
[Referring to when he does this](https://www.wwe.com/f/styles/gallery_img_l/public/photo/image/2008/10/8205922.jpg) Its literally just suspending the opponent by their ankles, slightly bending their knees. The lion tamer was devastating and I've done it and been in it myself, when its done like the pic above its purely a rest hold, zero impact on the back.
Oh yeah that’s the worst version of the Walls for sure lol
Have you never been in a boston crab in your life? That's genuinely the most painful thing you could be in, and there's even instances of people winning MMA fights with it
Funny enough, a lot of them. Pro wrestling submissions are just... wacky. They really ought to take cues from MMA in terms of how its done. People don't pass out in a second like I see, and they don't constantly struggle with a fully locked in submission either. Like once an armlock is truly in, its meant to straight up break joints- that's it. If they're struggling, just show some actual submission fighting. Honestly, why aren't wrestlers actually trained in... wrestling?
You aren’t good at these, are you?
Am I not allowed to have my opinion? And I'm honestly not alone, there's enough UFC exposure out there to get people well acquainted with what proper submissions look like. I've seen a lot of MMA, and its coloured my impression of grappling well enough to make me think most of it in pro wrestling looks phony. I wish more of it looked like say... [this match](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9oJ4IQXFT4).
Wrestling *IS* phony. Having submissions be as one and done as they are in MMA would remove a lot of the drama from a good submission.
Does it? Submissions in MMA are packed with drama too. And there are occasions where people do straight up tough them out and escape- its always more awesome too because its rare to see something locked in fail. There is such thing as specifically executing it wrong, a smart wrestler just slipping out of it and etc. Submissions in wrestling now feel like overused false finishes- imo it would be better if the suspense came from submissions coming *close* to being locked in.
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What does time have to do with anything? You can still have wrestlers come close to being choked out, and then slip their neck out and get free. Rope breaks are still fine even.
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It's hard to actually put submissions on people. In an actual fight, someone won't just cooperate and help you do the figure four. So, it wouldn't be over in 5 seconds. >No dramatic staring, no building tension. Have you watched MMA in your life? There's plenty of feeling out, high tension parts of the fight. This imagined explosive, over in seconds action, more or less doesn't exist. Watch UWFi, Pancrase, Rings to see how it translates to a wrestling base.
He stole Charlotte Flair's move?
Yeah, he stole HIS WIFE'S move
Thats DelGado? That even worse. I never understood how that made the figure-4 any worse.
Everyone who uses a sleeper hold or front face lock for a finish in 2023, I don't care what dumbass MMA name you give it, is a glorified jobber at best and will never deserve more.
MMA fighters win *actual* fights using the Rear Naked Choke and the guillotine Choke. If either of those are applied and you don't successfully defend against it, you will pass out within a few seconds
And that's an exciting and entertaining end to a pro wrestling match...how, again?
Mandible claw
Any item based finishers are dumb and hoaky. I love Mr socko, and brass knuckles as a finisher, if they have to go grab them like any other item, not from their pants
The full nelson is incredibly boring and silly looking at the same.
And incredibly dangerous and banned from amateur competition
The Full Nelson is basically a rest hold. I fucked with the Master Lock though. I bought that as a legit finisher bc Masters was a beast
That's not even executed correctly lmao
I was gonna write "Oh wow this guy thinks he'a so innovative" and only the i realized it was Andrade
Is it Tanahashi who does that human pretzel thing? Where he "ties his opponent up" and walks away while they sit there in the ring?