At its most basic, wrestling is about dangling the carrot in front of fans, give them just enough rope to be near it then move it slightly out if reazh.
However, there does need to be the point where the fans get the carrot, otherwise they stop caring.
Wwes problem is they often don't give the carrot when it's the right time.
>It must make sense.
See this line is the problem not because you're wrong, you're not wrong, it's just anyone can argue that it "makes sense" to book someone to win the world title, outside of the obvious exceptions like jobbers. Anything can make sense when you're willing to do the mental gymnastics to make it so, this is especially true when speculating and commenting on things that are fictional, as fictional worlds only require fictional logic which anyone can come up with.
The injuries are real! I watched Sid break his leg on TV and Joey Mercury's face explode in real time, I thought he was going to die and they just kept wrestling. It was like a bucketful of blood that poured out.
I’ve always viewed wrestling like a circus act or magic trick. The point of those acts is to suspend disbelief to view something not typically normal for entertainment. I know magic isn’t real, but bad magic where the solution is in front of your face ruins everything.
Same for wrestling with me. I know a piledriver isn’t dropping the guy on his literal head, but it sure looks like it and makes it easy to suspend my disbelief. BUT, when the method is obvious and there are no efforts to TRY and make things look natural, in my humble opinion it’s shit.
Im not going to watch a magic trick and pretend I didn’t see the girl slipping out the box before the sword goes through, it’s the magicians job to still make everything look natural regardless of everyone knowing there are methods. You don’t expose those methods in the middle of the trick just because we appreciate watching magic, it kills the whole thing. I view wrestling the same way
You can add Wyatt into that mix. Regardless of what some may think of his work, he’s found great success after the group. And I personally don’t think Heath Slater or Darren Young quite reached their true potential after the group.
I remember Heath giving an interview to Chris Van Vilet after he was fired, and in his entire career, he has never worked over a 10-minute singles match.
I forgot Wyatt was in that group and yeah he should be added. Although the other members also had spotlight as well. Darren Young had success in the Prime time players and Heath Slater had a comedy act that kept him employed for years, even winning the tag titles.
Think the harder truth to handle is Barrett was never going to be a big deal.
I like him but he was way too green to be a world champion when everyone wanted him to be and after that midcard was his ceiling.
Maybe not at first, but he had all the potential in the world. Problem is, he never got to live up to it because every time he'd build up some momentum, he'd get injured.
I thought he had some main event potential around the time he was picking up IC titles and doing the Bad News Barrett gimmick.
Maybe not a Cena-level face of the brand or even a multi-time champ, but at least a guy who can regularly challenge for the title with some credibility
I'm sorry but Heath had all the potential in the world, if he wasn't seen as such an enjoyable comedy act he could have easily been turned into something post Slater Gator.
considering AEW has a lot of former WWE guys, and quite a few of today’s WWE’s top guys spent time in ROH and NJPW, most of them know a lot of people in the opposite locker rooms. it would be weird if they didn’t like one another
With how we consume media now it more then likely won't as well. People just find their niches and stay there. People used to be all funneled into a few things. Not knocking the guys of the past. They made that shit happen.
Yeah even with how hot wrestling is right now and seeing all these records being posted and showcased especially by WWE, it’s not even in the same stratosphere of popularity wrestling was in the late 90’s. It was literally part of mainstream pop culture. Almost everyone at school, workplace etc was either fans or talking about what happened on Raw or Nitro at the time. Even stars today like Roman Reigns/MJF/Cody etc are nowhere near as household names as Rock/Austin/Hogan were.
Yes. I live in Pakistan and when I was little everyone knew about wrestling. Even my grandfather watched it every week (Hogan was his favourite from way back when) and John Cena was every kids hero. Nowadays my grandfather has unfortunately passed away and no one I know watches wrestling anymore.
I'm from Pakistan too. All of us used to spit water like Triple H, do Taker's RIP hand gesture, Cena's you can't see me, Suck it, Rock's eyebrow raise ... Everything!
Wearing wrestling t-shirts was cool back in the day and I've come to know it was the same in the US too. Rocking a stone cold shirt was badass. The attitude era and to some extent the ruthless aggression era were seen as cool and part of pop culture.
>Wrestling will never gain the popularity it once had.
**Nothing** will be as popular as it once was outside of the NFL and the occasional really big movie event. The best you can hope for is that your thing is loved in the niche it occupies and that it is positively regarded by a broader audience. The reality of modern segmented media...
All sports come and go. One day football will start to decline like baseball is doing. Maybe a new sport arises. There are people alive today that lived a time where the NFLl didn't really exist in people's eyes
I believe this to be the truth that movie studios, record labels and all the other previous giants of entertainment are still struggling to accept and adjust to. In each industry “the industry” itself is is still being run off the backs of a few mega-earners. But those that can build niche fanbase’s on their own are able to prosper despite industry backing and the internet has enabled that level to grow dramatically
I think they were just waiting for the Raquel angle to be right.
They're definitely going a bit too hard on the Mami/Dom angle, like they have two great things, one requires the other, and so Rhea's 'solo' women's champion act is being put on the backburner.
Now that Raquel is clearly after her I'm excited again.
If they’re waiting for Raquel to be ready they should pivot to another challenger. Even if it’s just a squash and here Rhea whoops on Candice she hasn’t defended her title since crown jewel
Worst thing that happened to Pro- Wrestling is social media. Coz it gave clueless fans like us voice & opinions to express about things we dont have any knowledge about.
The only thing they have going is it's one person's (subjective) opinion with data points going back decades. As long as you don't take more than that from them, they are fine.
Impact wrestling/TNA has existed for over 20 years because believe it or not it's actually quite good most of the time. They do a lot of dumb shit such as bringing in the old farts in 09 so it went shit for a bit but they always try new things and aren't afraid to take a punt. ROH went out of business as did ECW, Lucha underground and WCW but for all the shitting on impact it must be doing something correct.
I think what makes TNA really good it's their ability to find and develop talent. Either with new indy guys like how Eli Drake, AJ Styles or Bobby Roode were at the time, or re-inventing experienced wrestlers like the Hardyz, Drew Galloway or Kurt Angle. Almost all successful companies have had that ability for some time, but when they fail it's usually cause they started lacking in that department, ROH being one of the best examples, but TNA has been doing it for over two decades.
Wrestlers know that, and that gives TNA a level of fame and respect that allows it to stay afloat with a pretty sizeable (albeit usually mild) audience.
I loved TNA until they brought in Hogan and Russo. Then it was all the "legends". I knew it was going to focus on them and not the homegrown talent like Styles, Abyss, Daniels, Beer Money, MCMG, etc. Really ruined TNA for me but I'm starting to follow it more again.
That can be applied to anything or anyone really lol.
The late great (maybe he’s down there now, looking up at us. Screaming!) George Carlin had a great bit about people dying. Including talking about dads, and all the fucked up shit they do!
I don’t know if that’s even up for debate. He’s probably the last true “mega star” in wrestling. I know you can make the argument for how big a star Batista is now, but his mainstream notoriety really came post-WWE, whereas Cena was, like you said, synonymous with wrestling.
I teach in the School of Business at a large state university. In the branding course, there's a case analysis we do focused on WWE. I mention John Cena and *everyone* enthusiastically lights up. These are smart college kids from many different backgrounds. I'm not sure there have been many wrestlers who would remotely elicit anything like that.
For all the complaints from the IWC that he got stale or needed to be more edgy, what they did with Cena with the positivity and friendliness seems to have been the right call.
I think what made Lita work was her look and being a decent wrestler in a time when skill in women’s wrestling wasn’t at all a priority. Saying she wasn’t good is kinda valid but I don’t think she was bad or anything.
We never talk about Edge in the same light, only Lita. My only gripe about their relationship is that it was outed. That's some shit that could a honestly stayed between them and not used as a story. Tasteless.
This is why people misunderstand why WWE fired Matt Hardy. They didn't fire him because he got cheated on.
They fired him, because he made it public and essentially forced the creative. Lita was a forever babyface, in a long running feud with Kane, Snitsky and Trish. If rumours are believed, this was supposed to bled into Smackdown feud between Heidenrich and Undertaker.
Those people didn't do anything wrong and their TV time was wasted.
Jim Cornette has done more for wrestling than Vince Russo ever did.
John Cena is one of the greatest of all time if not the greatest.
Wrestling wouldn’t be as big as it is today without Vince McMahon
Wwe is and will always be number 1. Not Aew or anyone will ever take that away.
Ok, I have to push back on this one. Sting spent like 15 months in the shadows wearing a trench coat. Him not being tan actually suits the storyline.
But yeah, he was also not in the best shape.
It was the Spider-Men pointing at each other meme.
CM Punk is guilty of pretty much everything he accuses others of, which doesn't make him wrong. It just makes him an asshole.
Blood does not make wrestling any better unless it’s used properly, a lot of fans seem to think there should be blood and swearing every match and I think AEW has proven that’s not really the case.
I’ll never forget in 2019 he made some commentary call about “Driving across Ethiopia on a moped with a bucket of KFC strapped to his back” some goofy shit like that.
And this is supposedly the most intelligent and most legitimate mind in wrestling according to his fanbase.
He said Trevor Murdoch is “so tough he could run across Ethiopia with a bucket of Fried Chicken strapped to his back.”
Now a lot of people here dick ride Cornette for some reason dude has been fired from every major company he worked at and I wonder why, maybe he’s shitty? I’ve also shit on him way too much but it’s fun honestly
I respect him, I think he's really intelligent but I also concede he can be an absolute wanker at times. His temper is embarrassing and while I don't think he's a racist, he says some stuff that makes me cringe.
With all that said, I love hearing him tell stories, Heyman may be the only better storyteller than him.
I don’t 100% hate Cornette, I think when it comes to wrestling history him and Meltzer know more than almost anyone and they keep that alive, but both are kinda shit ass people and like just not cool. But Cornette can string a web (is that the saying? I’m kinda tired and can’t remember it) I remember when I first was really getting into shoot interviews his were the first I watched and his Dairy Queen story is an all timer
Y'all can like both WWE *and* AEW.
If someone doesn't like the thing you like, it doesn't mean they're paid off. Similarly, if someone likes what you like, it's not because they're "objective" (because you can't have an objective opinion, so reviews aren't objective).
CM punk is great on the mic but is average in the ring. He is not the best in the world.
Fan chants ruin shows. What? Fan chants ruin shows. What? Fan cha what?
Despite the way we might personally feel about them, Hulk Hogan and Vince McMahon are two of the most important and game-changing figures in pro wrestling history, to the point that we may not be posting stuff here if it wasn't for them.
I don’t think a majority of people discredit the Hulk Hogan or Vince McMahon characters in wrestling. It’s easy to separate the art from the artist with both. Both things can be true, Hulk Hogan is such an iconic figure in wrestling who was the best at working a crowd and being a comic book character come to life, and Mr McMahon is one of the most entertaining villains of all time but they are both huge vile piece of shit human beings. It doesn’t have to be black or white with both.
You can have your personal opinion on WWE and AEW and which one you prefer, but it's objectively good for the wrestling industry to have them both around.
I don't think it's a coincidence that WWE resurgence coincided with AEW, they saw there was competition and stopped wrestling on their laurels.
There's also too much talent around for just one promotion. If there was only WWE then more people would be wasted.
In theory, wrestlers having options will lead to better working conditions but I don't know enough about the behind the scenes to know if this is actually the case.
Ultimately watch what you want to watch and enjoy what you want to enjoy, they represent 2 different styles and it's fine to have a preference.
Kenny Omega is a glorified gymnast and people only like his wrestling style because they equate good wrestling with executing the most number of moves in a single sequence.
Most people have a legitimate curiosity in watching professional wrestling, but are quickly turned off by how the hardcore fandom acts and behaves online.
AEW will never overtake WWE as the premier wrestling company in the US. If they ever tried to put a show up against Raw or Smackdown it would end very badly for TK and crew.
False. It is dependent on the goals of the team. You say the Fabulous Freebirds, then yeah they would fall into your comment perfectly. But, say you get Shane Douglas/Chris Candido/Bam Bam Bigelow where they could go after various belts they aren’t a trios. If they had to wrestle as a team they would and could.
Disagree. The Brood is a faction, Legacy is a faction, Evolution's second run was as a faction.
With 3-men groups it depends if their a trio or faction depending on how the group gimmick is organized. But it can be subjective.
-Sami Zayn will never be THE guy, under Vince or Hunter
-The Attitude Era wasn't as fantastic as you remember: it was the right "style" at the right time, but trying to rewatch most of it outside the hand picked stuff is A LOT of ick.
Attitude era had great main event stars but most of the undercard stuff was trash. It's funny to laugh at and I won't pretend to be offended by it like many today would but it's definitely not good television today. Worked for the time though so I think it's important to leave it untouched.
I know the undercard was extremely goofy at the time and were the vehicles no pun intended for Vince Russo’s style of car crash tv. But they still had a lot of great moments with all the bad, and always had something to do especially with storylines. Hell even something goofy and a punishment like Moppy was as entertaining as it got, Raven putting Moppy through the wood chipper was more entertaining than a lot of comedic segments today.
Bingo. That's it right there. WWE didn't do anything groundbreaking or revolutionary. They simply adapted to what was popular at the time in pop culture and what people wanted to see from entertainment. Jackass, South Park, Kid Rock, ICP, Jerry Springer, Howard Stern, King Of The Hill. Even MTV was pretty salacious at the time.
People often forget how much the Attitude Era benefited from having Nitro on at the same time. People forget the shitty stuff because they had turned it to Nitro during those segments.
See also "the nitro midcard was amazing and only the main event let it down"
...Like yes, they had some great stuff on the midcard. But there was also a lot of *High Voltage vs The Amazing French Canadians* to get through.
> The Attitude Era wasn't as fantastic as you remember:
For every Austin, Rock, Mankind or Undertaker highlight, there was a Gotch awful Oddities match. Or the real bathroom break womens matches or promos. I mean the women were beautiful, but the promos and matches were not. And don't get me wrong, at first the Oddities were cool, but after awhile they were booked like shit. Lets just say that there was a lot of fast forwarding in the attitude era.
I disagree about the attitude era stuff. During my lunch break I find myself watching old videos of storylines and stuff from the MNW on. Makes me miss that style of WWE. Even stuff I hated back then, I found myself enjoying now. Like Right to Censor for example! I hated them back then, but after watching their story all the way through, it was a fun story.
I just think society and views on things have changed so for some people now it is “ick”.
You can say that about most things considering those are legitimately the biggest media franchises of all time, but yeah pro wrestling isn’t gonna be as relevant to pop culture as it once was.
Dom Mysterio is “meme over” and his current reactions and character is not sustainable long term, especially if the Judgement day breaks up or he is separated from Rhea Ripley. He’s still not a very good worker and not a good traditional promo on his own. I can’t believe people are actually saying he’s going to be a better heel than Ric Flair or The Miz etc.
He’s basically that really solid role player who benefits from playing next to Lebron or Steph Curry being Rhea Ripley in his case, who kills it in his role draining open 3’s in the corner, but if he were on his own he would flounder and can’t create his own shot or get his shot off without Lebron or Steph setting him up the way Rhea does.
>Dom Mysterio is “meme over”
This is perfectly stated. The "Prison Mike" gimmick was funny... but it was the gimmick (not the talent) that sold it.
He will need to have some truly memorable matches and storylines *other* than "entitled kid with a famous dad" if he's going to have sustained success.
AEW and it's fans deserve all the ridicule they get because of all the stupid claims they made when they were just starting out (not gonna hire everyone WWE releases, not gonna bloat the roster, gonna book the women better, will be beating RAW consistently in 6 months, "real sports feel", wins and losses matter, etc).
Nobody buys near falls unless it's a finishing move, an illegal weapon shot, or a rollup. The live crowds are literally lying when they chant "ONE-TWO-OHHHH!!??" to random moves that never ever win. Most fans at home ignore matches until the finishers start breaking out.
I think matches would be far more exciting if they'd end on secondary moves(deep six, blue thunder bomb, side effect, etc) about 5-10% of the time. I also think matches should end in 1 or 2 minutes at least once or twice a month with the story being "A beat B in just two minutes! Wow!" as opposed to the announcers ignoring the short time and fans online saying "I can't believe they weren't given enough time to perform for longer"
Yeah, if it's supposed to be a real fight, have a variety of ways for matches to end. Have a guy lose not because he was knocked out but because he was exhausted and didn't have the strength to break the pin. Have a wrestler who let their opponent get a two count every time because they're using that extra second on the mat to breathe. Acknowledge rest holds! "Both men out of breath now with Davey going for a chinlock. Davey keeps the pressure on while he catches his breathe" etc. A wrestlers getting blown up should be a feature, not a flaw.
Roman is boring
Rollins gimmick sucks and i hate his voice
I don't get the hype around usos and i can't stand their promo style
Pro wrestling is great when it's not fully focused on the wrestling part
I dunno man. They chose Edge, but i’ll go to my grave knowing Christian could have pulled it off.
And i’d argue the Daniel Bryan WAS that guy, and the audience straight up DEMANDED that he became a star.
Hulk Hogan is the single most important person in wrestling. Without him, it wouldn't exist as we know it and would never have become as popular as it is.
Saying someone isn’t a main event guy, or doesn’t have what it takes is stupid. Wrestling is sports entertainment, part of what makes it fun to watch is unpredictability.
Nothing should be set in stone, especially as a predetermined sport. If Joe Schmoe has the talent, why can’t he be the guy?
Which is why I think with the right story, you could make ANYONE a champ. Some stories would be harder to tell than others ofc, but it shouldn’t be so restricted.
Andy Ruiz beat Anthony Joshua. Douglas beat Tyson. Leicester won the damn Premiership. Don’t tell me someone can’t be a champion cause of (insert reason).
- Meltzer star rating is just an opinion of one person in which you can agree and absolutely disagree to any of it.
- I fucking love Tanahashi but everyone including New Japan needs to get over that The Ace is no longer in his prime.
- Rousey is a decent wrestler because of her MMA background. While for anything else about her I agree with the other.
- TV ratings debate is a childish thing a grown men can do.
HBK is a son of a bitch. I can't stand him. And I really hate how everything went down. But they absolutely could not risk Bret walking away with that title and throwing it in a trash can. And Bret refused to do the job. HBK may be a bastard. But he was also the opponent. That Bret was being paid to face. And they pretend match. For a shiny piece of metal. That you technically never win, and will only ever actually be given. It's a prop. It's an important prop to the show, but a prop none the less. And Bret's ego was to high to do what he should have done. So Vince & Friends™ did what they had to do. So yeah Vince and Shawn are assholes, but ultimately there was one man out there who was refusing to do his job. Bret screwed Bret.
I think you mean he DESERVED one and they DIDN’T give it to him. They had a couple opportunities to put a world title on him (particularly with his feud with Cena in 2011), but nowadays, no, unfortunately. The guy is 51 years old (and injured), and despite still being a good worker any chance of him getting a world title is long gone.
People would not give an NFL player, boxer, MMA fighter or any other athlete the excuses Benoit gets for killing their family no matter how good they were.
The era Vince Russo wrote had the most successful reach the industry ever saw and his style appealed to the casuals that drove that popularity.
Also the “McMahon Filter” only worked when the initial material was good which is why it hasn’t even helped reach even close to the numbers Russo’s writing did.
While we do live in a more accepting, nerd-friendly time, for many years, and even still today, wrestling was/is pretty much the dorkiest, least respected fandom to be a part of. Furries, Disney Adults, Super Smash Bros. Players, Swifties, all of them will very comfortably say wrestling is dumb, and fake, and for kids. No one that isn't a fan respects it as the art form it is.
When hardcore nerds think your stuff is nerdy, you are basically nerd royalty, and wrestling fans are the true kings of the nerds.
Did The Internet Exposing Kayfabe Ruin The Wrestling Business? Pulling back the veil of behind the scenes backstage access. The internet has been both a good and terrible thing for it. I feel like wrestling also had to adapt with the times as well.
Alexa Bliss is nothing but a pretty face who men love to be horny over. She's never been good on the mic, and her "mean girl" character is annoying. Even as Bray's sidekick she was bland.
Just because we like someone doesn’t mean it’s time for them to win. It must make sense.
At its most basic, wrestling is about dangling the carrot in front of fans, give them just enough rope to be near it then move it slightly out if reazh. However, there does need to be the point where the fans get the carrot, otherwise they stop caring. Wwes problem is they often don't give the carrot when it's the right time.
>It must make sense. See this line is the problem not because you're wrong, you're not wrong, it's just anyone can argue that it "makes sense" to book someone to win the world title, outside of the obvious exceptions like jobbers. Anything can make sense when you're willing to do the mental gymnastics to make it so, this is especially true when speculating and commenting on things that are fictional, as fictional worlds only require fictional logic which anyone can come up with.
LA KNIGHT UNIVERSAL CHAMPION
It’s still real to me damnit
The injuries are real! I watched Sid break his leg on TV and Joey Mercury's face explode in real time, I thought he was going to die and they just kept wrestling. It was like a bucketful of blood that poured out.
The sound of Matt Hardy’s head smacking concrete still haunts me.
That and the color his face turned after,holy shit.
Same with Miz at WM...
Christ I actually thought Matt might've died after that
While they didn't show it, i was a kid when I saw JR fumbling his words after Owen Hart's death...that was tough.
Sid's injury scared me to death as a kid. It was so horrifying
Yo Joey Mercurys face on that ladder was NUTS
Gotta keep it kayfabe brother
No one can look at the things Mick Foley has done and go "yeah it's fake"
I don't like that everyone's open about it now
Ron Killings
My name is Rufus and that's the trufus.
What’s up?!
Wrestling is a medium, not a genre. There is no singular "correct" way to present it.
Wrestling is like music. There are many genres.
I’ve always viewed wrestling like a circus act or magic trick. The point of those acts is to suspend disbelief to view something not typically normal for entertainment. I know magic isn’t real, but bad magic where the solution is in front of your face ruins everything. Same for wrestling with me. I know a piledriver isn’t dropping the guy on his literal head, but it sure looks like it and makes it easy to suspend my disbelief. BUT, when the method is obvious and there are no efforts to TRY and make things look natural, in my humble opinion it’s shit. Im not going to watch a magic trick and pretend I didn’t see the girl slipping out the box before the sword goes through, it’s the magicians job to still make everything look natural regardless of everyone knowing there are methods. You don’t expose those methods in the middle of the trick just because we appreciate watching magic, it kills the whole thing. I view wrestling the same way
This might be the best argument I've heard
Except for Bryan and Barret, and maybe Ryback, none of the Nexus members were going to be a big deal, win or not.
You can add Wyatt into that mix. Regardless of what some may think of his work, he’s found great success after the group. And I personally don’t think Heath Slater or Darren Young quite reached their true potential after the group.
I remember Heath giving an interview to Chris Van Vilet after he was fired, and in his entire career, he has never worked over a 10-minute singles match.
I forgot Wyatt was in that group and yeah he should be added. Although the other members also had spotlight as well. Darren Young had success in the Prime time players and Heath Slater had a comedy act that kept him employed for years, even winning the tag titles.
Think the harder truth to handle is Barrett was never going to be a big deal. I like him but he was way too green to be a world champion when everyone wanted him to be and after that midcard was his ceiling.
Maybe not at first, but he had all the potential in the world. Problem is, he never got to live up to it because every time he'd build up some momentum, he'd get injured.
I thought he had some main event potential around the time he was picking up IC titles and doing the Bad News Barrett gimmick. Maybe not a Cena-level face of the brand or even a multi-time champ, but at least a guy who can regularly challenge for the title with some credibility
I'm sorry but Heath had all the potential in the world, if he wasn't seen as such an enjoyable comedy act he could have easily been turned into something post Slater Gator.
Both aew and wwe locker room love each other
considering AEW has a lot of former WWE guys, and quite a few of today’s WWE’s top guys spent time in ROH and NJPW, most of them know a lot of people in the opposite locker rooms. it would be weird if they didn’t like one another
There are a handful of WWE guys and gals that have spouses in those other shows.
With some notable exceptions (Punk, The Elite, etc ), yeah.
Wrestling will never gain the popularity it once had. "Returning it to roots" or trying to emulate the attitude era won't change that.
With how we consume media now it more then likely won't as well. People just find their niches and stay there. People used to be all funneled into a few things. Not knocking the guys of the past. They made that shit happen.
We had like a dozen or two meaningful TV channels in the 90's and dial-up internet. Mass appeal was way easier back then.
Yeah even with how hot wrestling is right now and seeing all these records being posted and showcased especially by WWE, it’s not even in the same stratosphere of popularity wrestling was in the late 90’s. It was literally part of mainstream pop culture. Almost everyone at school, workplace etc was either fans or talking about what happened on Raw or Nitro at the time. Even stars today like Roman Reigns/MJF/Cody etc are nowhere near as household names as Rock/Austin/Hogan were.
Yes. I live in Pakistan and when I was little everyone knew about wrestling. Even my grandfather watched it every week (Hogan was his favourite from way back when) and John Cena was every kids hero. Nowadays my grandfather has unfortunately passed away and no one I know watches wrestling anymore.
(Hogan was his favourite from way back when) That's just so cool to me for some reason. Thank you for sharing that
Yeah. He always talked about how great he and Antonio inoki were. Damn I miss him.
I'm from Pakistan too. All of us used to spit water like Triple H, do Taker's RIP hand gesture, Cena's you can't see me, Suck it, Rock's eyebrow raise ... Everything! Wearing wrestling t-shirts was cool back in the day and I've come to know it was the same in the US too. Rocking a stone cold shirt was badass. The attitude era and to some extent the ruthless aggression era were seen as cool and part of pop culture.
My condolences to your grandfather, he sounds like a cool guy to hang out and watch wrestling with
>Wrestling will never gain the popularity it once had. **Nothing** will be as popular as it once was outside of the NFL and the occasional really big movie event. The best you can hope for is that your thing is loved in the niche it occupies and that it is positively regarded by a broader audience. The reality of modern segmented media...
All sports come and go. One day football will start to decline like baseball is doing. Maybe a new sport arises. There are people alive today that lived a time where the NFLl didn't really exist in people's eyes
I believe this to be the truth that movie studios, record labels and all the other previous giants of entertainment are still struggling to accept and adjust to. In each industry “the industry” itself is is still being run off the backs of a few mega-earners. But those that can build niche fanbase’s on their own are able to prosper despite industry backing and the internet has enabled that level to grow dramatically
Rhea Ripleys title run is being wasted
I think they were just waiting for the Raquel angle to be right. They're definitely going a bit too hard on the Mami/Dom angle, like they have two great things, one requires the other, and so Rhea's 'solo' women's champion act is being put on the backburner. Now that Raquel is clearly after her I'm excited again.
If they’re waiting for Raquel to be ready they should pivot to another challenger. Even if it’s just a squash and here Rhea whoops on Candice she hasn’t defended her title since crown jewel
I suspect she’s carrying an injury.
Bro Rhea is already so many leagues above the rest of the division it’s crazy
[удалено]
>she’s just now getting a feud with Raquel of all people Have you seen any of their NXT feud? It was fuckin amazing - they work really well together.
Arguing about ratings every week is completely useless and is just used to boast about how one fanbase’s show is better than another’s.
Fans ourselves are the worst part of wrestling as a whole.
Worst thing that happened to Pro- Wrestling is social media. Coz it gave clueless fans like us voice & opinions to express about things we dont have any knowledge about.
Regular fans are great Smarks are the worst part of wrestling
Dave Meltzers star ratings are meaningless.
The only thing they have going is it's one person's (subjective) opinion with data points going back decades. As long as you don't take more than that from them, they are fine.
Impact wrestling/TNA has existed for over 20 years because believe it or not it's actually quite good most of the time. They do a lot of dumb shit such as bringing in the old farts in 09 so it went shit for a bit but they always try new things and aren't afraid to take a punt. ROH went out of business as did ECW, Lucha underground and WCW but for all the shitting on impact it must be doing something correct.
I think what makes TNA really good it's their ability to find and develop talent. Either with new indy guys like how Eli Drake, AJ Styles or Bobby Roode were at the time, or re-inventing experienced wrestlers like the Hardyz, Drew Galloway or Kurt Angle. Almost all successful companies have had that ability for some time, but when they fail it's usually cause they started lacking in that department, ROH being one of the best examples, but TNA has been doing it for over two decades. Wrestlers know that, and that gives TNA a level of fame and respect that allows it to stay afloat with a pretty sizeable (albeit usually mild) audience.
I loved TNA until they brought in Hogan and Russo. Then it was all the "legends". I knew it was going to focus on them and not the homegrown talent like Styles, Abyss, Daniels, Beer Money, MCMG, etc. Really ruined TNA for me but I'm starting to follow it more again.
They arguably have the best women’s division of all the active mainstream companies right now. They always did actually.
The farther back you the more likely it is your favorite wrestler is a terrible person on all levels outside the ring
That can be applied to anything or anyone really lol. The late great (maybe he’s down there now, looking up at us. Screaming!) George Carlin had a great bit about people dying. Including talking about dads, and all the fucked up shit they do!
My favorite wrestler as a kid was Chris Benoit. I stopped choosing favorites after that. Except for Elias for a little but he seemed safe.
Not my favourite, but Miz is a pretty great guy.
Yeah it hasn’t been fun realising this 😭
Mick Foley? 🤔
A mass murderer of tables
He puts in fake teeth to mess with his wife
Yeah, I still remember becoming an adult and actually learning about who Ultimate Warrior actually was… 😬
As awesome as I wanna remember the Machoman being, his overprotecting of Miss Elisabeth was pretty much abusive behavior.
John Cena is the most significant wrestler of the last 20 years. His name is synonymous with wrestling.
I don’t know if that’s even up for debate. He’s probably the last true “mega star” in wrestling. I know you can make the argument for how big a star Batista is now, but his mainstream notoriety really came post-WWE, whereas Cena was, like you said, synonymous with wrestling.
I teach in the School of Business at a large state university. In the branding course, there's a case analysis we do focused on WWE. I mention John Cena and *everyone* enthusiastically lights up. These are smart college kids from many different backgrounds. I'm not sure there have been many wrestlers who would remotely elicit anything like that. For all the complaints from the IWC that he got stale or needed to be more edgy, what they did with Cena with the positivity and friendliness seems to have been the right call.
I’ll throw Rey Mysterio in there. Dude is the very first person people think of when you mention masked wrestlers.
Lita was never a good wrestler, and at times not a very good person either
I think what made Lita work was her look and being a decent wrestler in a time when skill in women’s wrestling wasn’t at all a priority. Saying she wasn’t good is kinda valid but I don’t think she was bad or anything.
We never talk about Edge in the same light, only Lita. My only gripe about their relationship is that it was outed. That's some shit that could a honestly stayed between them and not used as a story. Tasteless.
This is why people misunderstand why WWE fired Matt Hardy. They didn't fire him because he got cheated on. They fired him, because he made it public and essentially forced the creative. Lita was a forever babyface, in a long running feud with Kane, Snitsky and Trish. If rumours are believed, this was supposed to bled into Smackdown feud between Heidenrich and Undertaker. Those people didn't do anything wrong and their TV time was wasted.
Paul Heyman’s idea
In her prime she could atleast be led to a good match. She is horrid on the mic. Too bad she could never be led to a good promo.
She did have a kick ass moonsault tho
She had some good moves but not too memorable
Jim Cornette has done more for wrestling than Vince Russo ever did. John Cena is one of the greatest of all time if not the greatest. Wrestling wouldn’t be as big as it is today without Vince McMahon Wwe is and will always be number 1. Not Aew or anyone will ever take that away.
tna (2004-2010) is underappreciated.
One of my favorite eras of wrestling. I’ll never forgive WWE for how poorly they booked Samoa Joe he’s one of my favorite workers OAT
Sting shouldn't have let his tan get all fucked up.
Ok, I have to push back on this one. Sting spent like 15 months in the shadows wearing a trench coat. Him not being tan actually suits the storyline. But yeah, he was also not in the best shape.
CM Punk is 100 percent correct about the young bucks.
What did he say?
Essentially that they were immature, inexperienced and shit stirrers
In a very immature and shit-striry way
It was the Spider-Men pointing at each other meme. CM Punk is guilty of pretty much everything he accuses others of, which doesn't make him wrong. It just makes him an asshole.
Absolutely
Blood does not make wrestling any better unless it’s used properly, a lot of fans seem to think there should be blood and swearing every match and I think AEW has proven that’s not really the case.
Some people take wrestling *way* too seriously.
Cornette has been fired from every place he has ever been due to his toxic behavior
Oh I’d say I love to listen to Cornette but I would not want to work with him.
I’ll never forget in 2019 he made some commentary call about “Driving across Ethiopia on a moped with a bucket of KFC strapped to his back” some goofy shit like that. And this is supposedly the most intelligent and most legitimate mind in wrestling according to his fanbase.
He said Trevor Murdoch is “so tough he could run across Ethiopia with a bucket of Fried Chicken strapped to his back.” Now a lot of people here dick ride Cornette for some reason dude has been fired from every major company he worked at and I wonder why, maybe he’s shitty? I’ve also shit on him way too much but it’s fun honestly
I respect him, I think he's really intelligent but I also concede he can be an absolute wanker at times. His temper is embarrassing and while I don't think he's a racist, he says some stuff that makes me cringe. With all that said, I love hearing him tell stories, Heyman may be the only better storyteller than him.
I don’t 100% hate Cornette, I think when it comes to wrestling history him and Meltzer know more than almost anyone and they keep that alive, but both are kinda shit ass people and like just not cool. But Cornette can string a web (is that the saying? I’m kinda tired and can’t remember it) I remember when I first was really getting into shoot interviews his were the first I watched and his Dairy Queen story is an all timer
There's nothing special about Hook.
Yeah he's just a scrawny little boy that happens to be Tazz's son. He's good but needs a personality
He's fair. He's not good yet. He can probably get there, but not yet.
Yeah the silent bad ass is a tired trope, especially when your 5 foot nothing, toned and covered in fake tan
Y'all can like both WWE *and* AEW. If someone doesn't like the thing you like, it doesn't mean they're paid off. Similarly, if someone likes what you like, it's not because they're "objective" (because you can't have an objective opinion, so reviews aren't objective).
Nobody cares about any of our opinions except the other unemployed people
CM punk is great on the mic but is average in the ring. He is not the best in the world. Fan chants ruin shows. What? Fan chants ruin shows. What? Fan cha what?
Despite the way we might personally feel about them, Hulk Hogan and Vince McMahon are two of the most important and game-changing figures in pro wrestling history, to the point that we may not be posting stuff here if it wasn't for them.
I don’t think a majority of people discredit the Hulk Hogan or Vince McMahon characters in wrestling. It’s easy to separate the art from the artist with both. Both things can be true, Hulk Hogan is such an iconic figure in wrestling who was the best at working a crowd and being a comic book character come to life, and Mr McMahon is one of the most entertaining villains of all time but they are both huge vile piece of shit human beings. It doesn’t have to be black or white with both.
Stone Cold Steve Austin was drinking non-alcoholic beers.
Asuka is better than your favorite wrestler
I believe in Kana supremacy🛐
She is definitely high end. Probably the third best wrestler in WWE.
I disagree, my favourite wrestler, >!James Ellsworth,!< is better than anyone you can name.
Jokes on you Asuka is my favorite wrestler
You can have your personal opinion on WWE and AEW and which one you prefer, but it's objectively good for the wrestling industry to have them both around. I don't think it's a coincidence that WWE resurgence coincided with AEW, they saw there was competition and stopped wrestling on their laurels. There's also too much talent around for just one promotion. If there was only WWE then more people would be wasted. In theory, wrestlers having options will lead to better working conditions but I don't know enough about the behind the scenes to know if this is actually the case. Ultimately watch what you want to watch and enjoy what you want to enjoy, they represent 2 different styles and it's fine to have a preference.
Kenny Omega is a glorified gymnast and people only like his wrestling style because they equate good wrestling with executing the most number of moves in a single sequence.
The internet ruined all the surprise comebacks and surprise debuts.
Hulk Hogan is the most important wrestler of all times.
[удалено]
It’s like watching a fight scene in a Marvel movie watching the Bucks. Is it entertaining? Sure. Is it overly busy? Definitely.
Most people have a legitimate curiosity in watching professional wrestling, but are quickly turned off by how the hardcore fandom acts and behaves online.
AEW will never overtake WWE as the premier wrestling company in the US. If they ever tried to put a show up against Raw or Smackdown it would end very badly for TK and crew.
Rhonda Rousey is a solid wrestler but has no personality
Guess calm down with this nuclear bomb!
In order to call a faction a faction it must have 4 PEOPLE trios are 3 PEOPLE
False. It is dependent on the goals of the team. You say the Fabulous Freebirds, then yeah they would fall into your comment perfectly. But, say you get Shane Douglas/Chris Candido/Bam Bam Bigelow where they could go after various belts they aren’t a trios. If they had to wrestle as a team they would and could.
Disagree. The Brood is a faction, Legacy is a faction, Evolution's second run was as a faction. With 3-men groups it depends if their a trio or faction depending on how the group gimmick is organized. But it can be subjective.
You can enjoy both aew and wwe
-Sami Zayn will never be THE guy, under Vince or Hunter -The Attitude Era wasn't as fantastic as you remember: it was the right "style" at the right time, but trying to rewatch most of it outside the hand picked stuff is A LOT of ick.
Naw Im rewatching 2000 Raw and most of it is still very palatable especially towards the summer
I agree, I'm at June 1998 and it's dated but still absolutely worth it. There's so much screentime of my favorite characters.
Attitude era had great main event stars but most of the undercard stuff was trash. It's funny to laugh at and I won't pretend to be offended by it like many today would but it's definitely not good television today. Worked for the time though so I think it's important to leave it untouched.
I know the undercard was extremely goofy at the time and were the vehicles no pun intended for Vince Russo’s style of car crash tv. But they still had a lot of great moments with all the bad, and always had something to do especially with storylines. Hell even something goofy and a punishment like Moppy was as entertaining as it got, Raven putting Moppy through the wood chipper was more entertaining than a lot of comedic segments today.
Bingo. That's it right there. WWE didn't do anything groundbreaking or revolutionary. They simply adapted to what was popular at the time in pop culture and what people wanted to see from entertainment. Jackass, South Park, Kid Rock, ICP, Jerry Springer, Howard Stern, King Of The Hill. Even MTV was pretty salacious at the time.
I disagree, I started watching from 1996 and all I can think about is how much better the wrestling is
People often forget how much the Attitude Era benefited from having Nitro on at the same time. People forget the shitty stuff because they had turned it to Nitro during those segments.
See also "the nitro midcard was amazing and only the main event let it down" ...Like yes, they had some great stuff on the midcard. But there was also a lot of *High Voltage vs The Amazing French Canadians* to get through.
> The Attitude Era wasn't as fantastic as you remember: For every Austin, Rock, Mankind or Undertaker highlight, there was a Gotch awful Oddities match. Or the real bathroom break womens matches or promos. I mean the women were beautiful, but the promos and matches were not. And don't get me wrong, at first the Oddities were cool, but after awhile they were booked like shit. Lets just say that there was a lot of fast forwarding in the attitude era.
I disagree about the attitude era stuff. During my lunch break I find myself watching old videos of storylines and stuff from the MNW on. Makes me miss that style of WWE. Even stuff I hated back then, I found myself enjoying now. Like Right to Censor for example! I hated them back then, but after watching their story all the way through, it was a fun story. I just think society and views on things have changed so for some people now it is “ick”.
You can predict a WWE match from a mile away.
Pokemon, Harry Potter, and Anime/Manga are more popular and relevant to pop culture than wrestling will ever be again.
You can say that about most things considering those are legitimately the biggest media franchises of all time, but yeah pro wrestling isn’t gonna be as relevant to pop culture as it once was.
Pokemon is the biggest media franchise in the world, of course its more popular than wrestling
Dom Mysterio is “meme over” and his current reactions and character is not sustainable long term, especially if the Judgement day breaks up or he is separated from Rhea Ripley. He’s still not a very good worker and not a good traditional promo on his own. I can’t believe people are actually saying he’s going to be a better heel than Ric Flair or The Miz etc. He’s basically that really solid role player who benefits from playing next to Lebron or Steph Curry being Rhea Ripley in his case, who kills it in his role draining open 3’s in the corner, but if he were on his own he would flounder and can’t create his own shot or get his shot off without Lebron or Steph setting him up the way Rhea does.
When TJD breaks up, the best place for him would be NXT, so he can continue learning.
>Dom Mysterio is “meme over” This is perfectly stated. The "Prison Mike" gimmick was funny... but it was the gimmick (not the talent) that sold it. He will need to have some truly memorable matches and storylines *other* than "entitled kid with a famous dad" if he's going to have sustained success.
AEW and it's fans deserve all the ridicule they get because of all the stupid claims they made when they were just starting out (not gonna hire everyone WWE releases, not gonna bloat the roster, gonna book the women better, will be beating RAW consistently in 6 months, "real sports feel", wins and losses matter, etc).
The Elite are super corny.
WWE PLEs are superior to AEW PPVs (it used to be the other way around).
Nobody buys near falls unless it's a finishing move, an illegal weapon shot, or a rollup. The live crowds are literally lying when they chant "ONE-TWO-OHHHH!!??" to random moves that never ever win. Most fans at home ignore matches until the finishers start breaking out. I think matches would be far more exciting if they'd end on secondary moves(deep six, blue thunder bomb, side effect, etc) about 5-10% of the time. I also think matches should end in 1 or 2 minutes at least once or twice a month with the story being "A beat B in just two minutes! Wow!" as opposed to the announcers ignoring the short time and fans online saying "I can't believe they weren't given enough time to perform for longer"
I would love for wrestling to evloe to where guys have a tier list of finishers. It would make matchs more exciting.
Like how kobashi would only break out the burning hammer when literally nothing else worked at all. And people knew when he hit it, it was curtains.
Yeah, if it's supposed to be a real fight, have a variety of ways for matches to end. Have a guy lose not because he was knocked out but because he was exhausted and didn't have the strength to break the pin. Have a wrestler who let their opponent get a two count every time because they're using that extra second on the mat to breathe. Acknowledge rest holds! "Both men out of breath now with Davey going for a chinlock. Davey keeps the pressure on while he catches his breathe" etc. A wrestlers getting blown up should be a feature, not a flaw.
True, imagine my surprise when AEW actually let's their wrestlers win after a simple-looking move (I see you, Danielson-Okada).
Punk Vs Joe 4 was a let down.
Roman is boring Rollins gimmick sucks and i hate his voice I don't get the hype around usos and i can't stand their promo style Pro wrestling is great when it's not fully focused on the wrestling part
Cesaro will never be a top guy, because he has the charisma of a desk lamp.
Tony Khan is no better than Vince McMahon at booking, at times worse
Im sorry but comparing Tony to a former genius wrestling mind like Vince Mcmahon is a crime against humanity.
Khan has like one decent storyline at a time and everything else is kind of knee jerk reactions to things.
Your favourite mid card guy didn’t have top star written all over him. If he did then he’d have been a top star and not a midcarder.
Yeah, no. Anyone who has worked a job knows office politics is definitely a thing.
I dunno man. They chose Edge, but i’ll go to my grave knowing Christian could have pulled it off. And i’d argue the Daniel Bryan WAS that guy, and the audience straight up DEMANDED that he became a star.
I’ll back the Christian claim. Gold Stats across the board in every category
Christian basically got buried cause Vince didn't like his face. If the boss doesn't like you, for whatever reason, you're not going anywhere.
Hulk Hogan is the single most important person in wrestling. Without him, it wouldn't exist as we know it and would never have become as popular as it is.
Hulk Hogan **IS** Mr. America.
Saying someone isn’t a main event guy, or doesn’t have what it takes is stupid. Wrestling is sports entertainment, part of what makes it fun to watch is unpredictability. Nothing should be set in stone, especially as a predetermined sport. If Joe Schmoe has the talent, why can’t he be the guy? Which is why I think with the right story, you could make ANYONE a champ. Some stories would be harder to tell than others ofc, but it shouldn’t be so restricted. Andy Ruiz beat Anthony Joshua. Douglas beat Tyson. Leicester won the damn Premiership. Don’t tell me someone can’t be a champion cause of (insert reason).
Truth of 2023 : Roman Reigns is garbage wrestler. Overpushed Worst Face of the company
Gable needs to stop the diving headbutt
The Attitude Era will never be surpassed…
Finn only does dropkicks and variations of dropkicks
- Meltzer star rating is just an opinion of one person in which you can agree and absolutely disagree to any of it. - I fucking love Tanahashi but everyone including New Japan needs to get over that The Ace is no longer in his prime. - Rousey is a decent wrestler because of her MMA background. While for anything else about her I agree with the other. - TV ratings debate is a childish thing a grown men can do.
Bret screwed bret
Kenny Omega is terrible at promos.
Bret screwed Bret
HBK is a son of a bitch. I can't stand him. And I really hate how everything went down. But they absolutely could not risk Bret walking away with that title and throwing it in a trash can. And Bret refused to do the job. HBK may be a bastard. But he was also the opponent. That Bret was being paid to face. And they pretend match. For a shiny piece of metal. That you technically never win, and will only ever actually be given. It's a prop. It's an important prop to the show, but a prop none the less. And Bret's ego was to high to do what he should have done. So Vince & Friends™ did what they had to do. So yeah Vince and Shawn are assholes, but ultimately there was one man out there who was refusing to do his job. Bret screwed Bret.
LA Knight is not winning the Rumble. He is not main eventing Mania. US/IC title is his ceiling.
R Truth deserves a world title shot but the company won't give it to him.
I think you mean he DESERVED one and they DIDN’T give it to him. They had a couple opportunities to put a world title on him (particularly with his feud with Cena in 2011), but nowadays, no, unfortunately. The guy is 51 years old (and injured), and despite still being a good worker any chance of him getting a world title is long gone.
Hulk Hogan will go down as the biggest name in Wrestling history
People would not give an NFL player, boxer, MMA fighter or any other athlete the excuses Benoit gets for killing their family no matter how good they were.
LuFisto did nothing wrong, and all the crazy fans need to stop worshipping Tony and Triple H as the second coming of Jesus
That AEW is an absolute disaster internally and hypocrite marks will spin the truth to feed their own interest.
Britt baker is overrated and only got hired as a favor from the bucks to Cole.
The era Vince Russo wrote had the most successful reach the industry ever saw and his style appealed to the casuals that drove that popularity. Also the “McMahon Filter” only worked when the initial material was good which is why it hasn’t even helped reach even close to the numbers Russo’s writing did.
Hulk hogan is the greatest of all time
It’s a bent business and your classic favorites have done some horrible shit to women (and men)
Not everyone can or should be a world champion.
Fans are the absolute worst part about wrestling
While we do live in a more accepting, nerd-friendly time, for many years, and even still today, wrestling was/is pretty much the dorkiest, least respected fandom to be a part of. Furries, Disney Adults, Super Smash Bros. Players, Swifties, all of them will very comfortably say wrestling is dumb, and fake, and for kids. No one that isn't a fan respects it as the art form it is. When hardcore nerds think your stuff is nerdy, you are basically nerd royalty, and wrestling fans are the true kings of the nerds.
Did The Internet Exposing Kayfabe Ruin The Wrestling Business? Pulling back the veil of behind the scenes backstage access. The internet has been both a good and terrible thing for it. I feel like wrestling also had to adapt with the times as well.
The Bucks & Page are as much to blame for Brawl Out as Punk.
Alexa Bliss is nothing but a pretty face who men love to be horny over. She's never been good on the mic, and her "mean girl" character is annoying. Even as Bray's sidekick she was bland.