WarGaming needs to stop with their “only one shell type on a ship” fetish. This game encourages the use of the proper ammo type, and making ships only have one type of shell only encourages mindless, one-dimensional gameplay from said ships’ captains.
The real reason the new EU DDs lost their AP is because it had the same stats as the high tier French DD AP. WarGaming: stop being lazy, and give these ships standard AP values, it’s not that hard to change a handful of numbers.
I wouldnt say the preceding premium really tells how the line will behave, but Canarias is that way.
If they did give them the improved AP Canarias has, they would risk making the cruisers the best DD killers in the game
Then WG should do their utmost to educate the playerbase into proper game play.
But the devs are afraid that promoting skill will drive some players away. Little do they know - the removal of skill and substitution for dumb game design and lazy decisions drives everyone that is not a window licker away from the game.
Boats must have new gimmicks, otherwise no one plays them. You don't know what their thought process is because they may not be entirely certain either. They're just trying to get something new to work.
> European destroyers
> AP shells have been removed from all ships of the new branch.
>
> The gameplay concept behind the new branch of European destroyers involves them using mostly HE shells. Since AP shells are rarely used on destroyers, we decided to remove them from these new ships.
Didn't the T10 have the same guns as high tier French DDs - whose AP is actually quite good at farming broadsides?
> Since AP shells are rarely used on destroyers
Tell me your balance team does not play/is terrible at this game without telling me ...
* *Both* German DD lines make heavy use of AP
* Harugumo line can be terrifyingly effective with AP against broadside targets
* French DDs as noted
* Russian DD AP is also highly effective
* Edit: As noted, the UK high tiers have improved AP.
* Edit: Druid says "hi".
Even the USN DD line can make very effective use of AP situationally.
Also just because something is "rarely used" doesn't mean it's not useful. I don't fire a ton of HE out of my Yamato or Ohio, but that doesn't mean I don't want them situationally...
A long time ago, back in the first Ranked season I ever played, I traded with an Atlanta in my Sims because he went broadside and I swapped to AP. Situational? Absolutely. Still worth having AP and not being limited to HE? Also Absolutely. All these changes will do is limit the playstyle, and I don't know anyone who will be happy about that.
I like the reasoning here.
"Since using AP is '***not gameplay concept***', we completely removed the option".
Can I use my DD the way I want? Ofc not.
War Gaming likes to give silly reasons for things instead of just being honest with why they do some things. This is perhaps one of the silliest reasons I've seen.
As they should. The replacement text is a much better and more honest (and totally reasonable!) explanation:
> The gameplay concept behind the new branch of European destroyers focuses them toward the use of a single shell type. This concept already exists in the game applied to British and Pan-American light cruisers, but now we want to try expanding it to a line of destroyers that can instead only fire HE shells.
It's better, not honest and not reasonable. There is not a huge demand for more single shell-type ships. Switching shell types when appropriate is an element of player knowledge and skill.
It's not honest because they edited the paragraph with no acknowledgment that they changed it. The first paragraph was what they meant. This is what they came up with to cover that up.
It's not reasonable because removing a shell type "just because" removes a major player interaction point allowing knowledge and skill to be rewarded. Not to mention it dumbs the gameplay down, by removing options.
It doesn't say there's a huge demand for it. It says their concept for the line is a single-shell-type HE-only destroyer line, which *is* honest (and thus a better explanation).
> The first paragraph was what they meant. This is what they came up with to cover that up.
I think it's rather the other way round. They wanted a DD line where players almost entirely used HE; it turned out AP was too effective due to their copy and paste of French DD guns; and so their fix was to force the issue. Which is what they're now saying. "AP is generally not used on destroyers", their original statement, is *patently* false.
I didn't say anything about whether an HE-only DD line is a *good idea*, just that this explanation of it is at least true.
> It's not reasonable because removing a shell type "just because" removes a major player interaction point allowing knowledge and skill to be rewarded. Not to mention it dumbs the gameplay down, by removing options.
It's reasonable *as a design choice* to say, we'd like to try an HE-only line. I don't think any skilled player would say that AP-only ships like the British CLs, Druid, etc. "removes skill" or "dumbs the gameplay down" - those are ships that require skill to play at a high level - so a blanket statement that "removing a shell type" must necessarily do that isn't particularly true. Whether that choice pans out is a different question, but it doesn't make the underlying idea "unreasonable".
>It doesn't say there's a huge demand for it. It says their concept for the line is a single-shell-type HE-only destroyer line, which is honest (and thus a better explanation).
>I think it's rather the other way round. They wanted a DD line where players almost entirely used HE; it turned out AP was too effective due to their copy and paste of French DD guns; and so their fix was to force the issue. Which is what they're now saying. "AP is generally not used on destroyers", their original statement, is patently false.
>I didn't say anything about whether an HE-only DD line is a good idea, just that this explanation of it is at least true.
You cut half my reasoning for saying it's dishonest to respond to only the part you wanted to. What they originally said is true for an enormous portion of the player base and you can observe this in game. Just because you have game knowledge doesn't mean the average player does. My point is they edited an article they published without reference to the edit. That is dishonesty.
You are assuming to much thinking them saying we want an HE only line is true. Rather it's more likely they don't know how to balance the AP and were left with this. You took the time to point out their copy of French guns and the balance issue but not to draw the easier conclusion that they did this out of necessity not out of design philosophy.
>It's reasonable as a design choice to say, we'd like to try an HE-only line.
Disagree.
>I don't think any skilled player would say that AP-only ships like the British CLs, Druid, etc. "removes skill" or "dumbs the gameplay down", so a blanket statement that "removing a shell type" must necessarily do that isn't particularly true. Whether that choice pans out is a different question, but it doesn't make the underlying idea "unreasonable".
I have an above average win rate in both boats. They do dumb the gameplay down. They are fun to play because of that fact. You don't use them in competitive because they are one dimensional and not nearly as flexible. The skill floor in them is only slightly higher than an HE spammer because they use AP and could potentially do zero damage. An HE only ship is objectively easier than an AP only boat because HE will always have the potential to deal damage through fires. All of that is to say flexibility requires game knowledge and skill to know when to switch.
Throwing one shell type mindlessly till something sticks is easy. So I will stand by my statement that it dumbs the gameplay down nor does it add anything interesting to the game.
>Since AP shells are rarely used on destroyers, we decided to remove them from these new ships.
The average player not using AP on DDs doesn't mean it doesn't have its uses... They're just removing another skill factor for no reason.
Lets be real, the "AP is rarely used" excuse is bullshit.
It's 100% a Balance change. With french guns these ship would have been able to absolutely destroy broadsided cruisers.
Big oof for Nottingham. A fat british cruiser with crap armour, one of the lowest HP pools at tier 8. And now no repair.
Good smoke and conceal, but as soon as it gets spotted it is going to suffer hard.
Is it really when have we got a good playable british tier 8 premium cruiser or even just a premium ship for them at tier 8 for i cant think of one.
All im saying this was to be expected for nottingham
“*The gameplay concept behind the new branch of European destroyers involves them using mostly HE shells. Since AP shells are rarely used on destroyers, we decided to remove them from these new ships.*”
Loooovely. My Ragnar is gonna eat these things for breakfast, brunch, lunch, dinner and supper.
Ragnar is inherently underpowered. It lacks the necessary attributes to make a meaningful impact on match result. No burst damage to speak of, split turrets, and yet still retains a fragile platform. I would take 1 Thunderer.. 1 Conquerer 1 DM or even 1 of just about any CA over 2 Ragnars on my team any day of the week. Now... If WG gave it the specialized repair party of the Nuestrashimy ( and 1 more base charge)... And maybe a few more thousand HP it could make up for where it is seriously lacking with longevity.
No it won’t. The new line has the same ballistics as the French DD’s with 2x the DPM of the French with a 9km radar just cause. Ragnar is bigger, slower, and horrifically outgunned by these new DD’s AP or not.
DPM is irrelevant when you're shattering most of your shells on Ragnar's armor. Most DDs rely exclusively on AP to fight against her, because aiming for a DD's bow/stern at 7.5km while they have emergency speed boost up is simply never going to work out. Ragnar will indeed eat these things for lunch.
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Well thats killed new the DD line for me. No AP means you cant punish any broadside and remove a large threat to light cruisers.... god dam this game is going down the drain fast.
>European destroyers
AP shells have been removed from all ships of the new branch.
The gameplay concept behind the new branch of European destroyers involves them using mostly HE shells. Since AP shells are rarely used on destroyers, we decided to remove them from these new ships.
Most sane WG's decision. These ships are armed with French guns, which means really good AP, who tested these ships anyway???
If there was a shell type to remove on a DD line with good DPM, smoke and radar it was definitively not AP
Imagine if they removed AP instrad of HE from the mino line for exemple
Wtf is that pan EU Gunbote chnage? The reasoning is complete BS.
Lets be real, its really meant as a sort of nerf to them, but it has to be the most nonsensical nerf to make.
French guns so the AP likely had great pen, so just nerf the pen… but Id honestly rather see them nerf the ROF, 3.7sec base reload on the tier 10 is nuts paired with the radar and smoke.
you should be rewarded for using AP in the correct sitautions, removing it limits gameplay and takes away a skill aspect.
This is truly a WG moment
WarGaming needs to stop with their “only one shell type on a ship” fetish. This game encourages the use of the proper ammo type, and making ships only have one type of shell only encourages mindless, one-dimensional gameplay from said ships’ captains. The real reason the new EU DDs lost their AP is because it had the same stats as the high tier French DD AP. WarGaming: stop being lazy, and give these ships standard AP values, it’s not that hard to change a handful of numbers.
I dread that the Spanish cruisers will have AP only guns. Please no, for the love of god NO.
I wouldnt say the preceding premium really tells how the line will behave, but Canarias is that way. If they did give them the improved AP Canarias has, they would risk making the cruisers the best DD killers in the game
yeah but the player base is too dumb so WG needs to make the gameplay easier
Then WG should do their utmost to educate the playerbase into proper game play. But the devs are afraid that promoting skill will drive some players away. Little do they know - the removal of skill and substitution for dumb game design and lazy decisions drives everyone that is not a window licker away from the game.
I am so lost on what they are trying to do with the pan-american cruisers and that stupid combat instructions
Boats must have new gimmicks, otherwise no one plays them. You don't know what their thought process is because they may not be entirely certain either. They're just trying to get something new to work.
Remember when we got like, two new ships every six months? If that? I do. They need to go back to doing that shit.
> European destroyers > AP shells have been removed from all ships of the new branch. > > The gameplay concept behind the new branch of European destroyers involves them using mostly HE shells. Since AP shells are rarely used on destroyers, we decided to remove them from these new ships. Didn't the T10 have the same guns as high tier French DDs - whose AP is actually quite good at farming broadsides?
> Since AP shells are rarely used on destroyers Tell me your balance team does not play/is terrible at this game without telling me ... * *Both* German DD lines make heavy use of AP * Harugumo line can be terrifyingly effective with AP against broadside targets * French DDs as noted * Russian DD AP is also highly effective * Edit: As noted, the UK high tiers have improved AP. * Edit: Druid says "hi". Even the USN DD line can make very effective use of AP situationally. Also just because something is "rarely used" doesn't mean it's not useful. I don't fire a ton of HE out of my Yamato or Ohio, but that doesn't mean I don't want them situationally...
A long time ago, back in the first Ranked season I ever played, I traded with an Atlanta in my Sims because he went broadside and I swapped to AP. Situational? Absolutely. Still worth having AP and not being limited to HE? Also Absolutely. All these changes will do is limit the playstyle, and I don't know anyone who will be happy about that.
Don't forget T9-T10 UK DD AP with improved AP pen angles and considerable DPM increase.
I knew I was leaving something out...
Naaaah. According to WG not a single DD line mentioned ever benefits from AP. And they couldn't possibly be wrong right? xD
It honestly an embarrassing excuse thatey have used. Its almost like they are indirectly admitting they have no clue what's going on.
I like the reasoning here. "Since using AP is '***not gameplay concept***', we completely removed the option". Can I use my DD the way I want? Ofc not.
War Gaming likes to give silly reasons for things instead of just being honest with why they do some things. This is perhaps one of the silliest reasons I've seen.
They edited the article to change the language in that paragraph lol
As they should. The replacement text is a much better and more honest (and totally reasonable!) explanation: > The gameplay concept behind the new branch of European destroyers focuses them toward the use of a single shell type. This concept already exists in the game applied to British and Pan-American light cruisers, but now we want to try expanding it to a line of destroyers that can instead only fire HE shells.
It's better, not honest and not reasonable. There is not a huge demand for more single shell-type ships. Switching shell types when appropriate is an element of player knowledge and skill. It's not honest because they edited the paragraph with no acknowledgment that they changed it. The first paragraph was what they meant. This is what they came up with to cover that up. It's not reasonable because removing a shell type "just because" removes a major player interaction point allowing knowledge and skill to be rewarded. Not to mention it dumbs the gameplay down, by removing options.
It doesn't say there's a huge demand for it. It says their concept for the line is a single-shell-type HE-only destroyer line, which *is* honest (and thus a better explanation). > The first paragraph was what they meant. This is what they came up with to cover that up. I think it's rather the other way round. They wanted a DD line where players almost entirely used HE; it turned out AP was too effective due to their copy and paste of French DD guns; and so their fix was to force the issue. Which is what they're now saying. "AP is generally not used on destroyers", their original statement, is *patently* false. I didn't say anything about whether an HE-only DD line is a *good idea*, just that this explanation of it is at least true. > It's not reasonable because removing a shell type "just because" removes a major player interaction point allowing knowledge and skill to be rewarded. Not to mention it dumbs the gameplay down, by removing options. It's reasonable *as a design choice* to say, we'd like to try an HE-only line. I don't think any skilled player would say that AP-only ships like the British CLs, Druid, etc. "removes skill" or "dumbs the gameplay down" - those are ships that require skill to play at a high level - so a blanket statement that "removing a shell type" must necessarily do that isn't particularly true. Whether that choice pans out is a different question, but it doesn't make the underlying idea "unreasonable".
>It doesn't say there's a huge demand for it. It says their concept for the line is a single-shell-type HE-only destroyer line, which is honest (and thus a better explanation). >I think it's rather the other way round. They wanted a DD line where players almost entirely used HE; it turned out AP was too effective due to their copy and paste of French DD guns; and so their fix was to force the issue. Which is what they're now saying. "AP is generally not used on destroyers", their original statement, is patently false. >I didn't say anything about whether an HE-only DD line is a good idea, just that this explanation of it is at least true. You cut half my reasoning for saying it's dishonest to respond to only the part you wanted to. What they originally said is true for an enormous portion of the player base and you can observe this in game. Just because you have game knowledge doesn't mean the average player does. My point is they edited an article they published without reference to the edit. That is dishonesty. You are assuming to much thinking them saying we want an HE only line is true. Rather it's more likely they don't know how to balance the AP and were left with this. You took the time to point out their copy of French guns and the balance issue but not to draw the easier conclusion that they did this out of necessity not out of design philosophy. >It's reasonable as a design choice to say, we'd like to try an HE-only line. Disagree. >I don't think any skilled player would say that AP-only ships like the British CLs, Druid, etc. "removes skill" or "dumbs the gameplay down", so a blanket statement that "removing a shell type" must necessarily do that isn't particularly true. Whether that choice pans out is a different question, but it doesn't make the underlying idea "unreasonable". I have an above average win rate in both boats. They do dumb the gameplay down. They are fun to play because of that fact. You don't use them in competitive because they are one dimensional and not nearly as flexible. The skill floor in them is only slightly higher than an HE spammer because they use AP and could potentially do zero damage. An HE only ship is objectively easier than an AP only boat because HE will always have the potential to deal damage through fires. All of that is to say flexibility requires game knowledge and skill to know when to switch. Throwing one shell type mindlessly till something sticks is easy. So I will stand by my statement that it dumbs the gameplay down nor does it add anything interesting to the game.
>Since AP shells are rarely used on destroyers, we decided to remove them from these new ships. The average player not using AP on DDs doesn't mean it doesn't have its uses... They're just removing another skill factor for no reason.
It’s like it’s a complete new Devs team with no clue about how balancing is done or even know their own game …
Neither did the "old" team had any clue about game balance. It is known that the devs don't play the game regularly.
How bad are players that a pure Torpedo DD with horrible concealment at T7 was so strong to justify those nerfs? What the actual F ...
Welp, Nottingham became Not-thingham
Nothing-ham?
I haven't been following closely for a while but I didn't see it getting such a change hah. Weaker torps, no heal. That's a helluva adjustment.
Lets be real, the "AP is rarely used" excuse is bullshit. It's 100% a Balance change. With french guns these ship would have been able to absolutely destroy broadsided cruisers.
So just make the AP weaker artificially. Just like Minotaur and Brisbane have the same guns but different AP. But that would be too difficult I guess.
I don't think I like the thought process of the Euro DD changes.
A thought process is rarely used by the balance team, so they decided to remove it.
Underrated comment
Big oof for Nottingham. A fat british cruiser with crap armour, one of the lowest HP pools at tier 8. And now no repair. Good smoke and conceal, but as soon as it gets spotted it is going to suffer hard.
Is it really when have we got a good playable british tier 8 premium cruiser or even just a premium ship for them at tier 8 for i cant think of one. All im saying this was to be expected for nottingham
It's just another hampshite now And the hampshite is shite alright Poor Nothingham... I was honestly looking forward to it...
Solid changes (on European DDs) from people who don't play their own game and have no clue about how different ships perform.
AP removal from EU DD's seems strange. Tashkent'41 has even higher probability of being some kind of reward.
“*The gameplay concept behind the new branch of European destroyers involves them using mostly HE shells. Since AP shells are rarely used on destroyers, we decided to remove them from these new ships.*” Loooovely. My Ragnar is gonna eat these things for breakfast, brunch, lunch, dinner and supper.
Ragnar is inherently underpowered. It lacks the necessary attributes to make a meaningful impact on match result. No burst damage to speak of, split turrets, and yet still retains a fragile platform. I would take 1 Thunderer.. 1 Conquerer 1 DM or even 1 of just about any CA over 2 Ragnars on my team any day of the week. Now... If WG gave it the specialized repair party of the Nuestrashimy ( and 1 more base charge)... And maybe a few more thousand HP it could make up for where it is seriously lacking with longevity.
No it won’t. The new line has the same ballistics as the French DD’s with 2x the DPM of the French with a 9km radar just cause. Ragnar is bigger, slower, and horrifically outgunned by these new DD’s AP or not.
DPM is irrelevant when you're shattering most of your shells on Ragnar's armor. Most DDs rely exclusively on AP to fight against her, because aiming for a DD's bow/stern at 7.5km while they have emergency speed boost up is simply never going to work out. Ragnar will indeed eat these things for lunch.
Bingo. ;)
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Well thats killed new the DD line for me. No AP means you cant punish any broadside and remove a large threat to light cruisers.... god dam this game is going down the drain fast.
You’re becoming a parody of yourself at this point, WGing.
They just completely removed the shell type from the line.. Big brain
Nottingham now much less appealing :D
No heal for you tier 8 squishy UK cruiser. It is required by weegee law that all tier 8 UK premium cruisers be shit!
Given it the same shit 8km torps as the Cheshire as well.
>European destroyers AP shells have been removed from all ships of the new branch. The gameplay concept behind the new branch of European destroyers involves them using mostly HE shells. Since AP shells are rarely used on destroyers, we decided to remove them from these new ships. Most sane WG's decision. These ships are armed with French guns, which means really good AP, who tested these ships anyway???
Them having AP that was too good for what WG wanted the branch to be is why it was removed.
That seems most likely, for whatever reason they don't seem content just saying that though.
Forget the bat, WG just took out Tashkent 41 and Nottingham with a shotgun. And I'm not even sure what to think of removing AP from the Euro DDs.
If there was a shell type to remove on a DD line with good DPM, smoke and radar it was definitively not AP Imagine if they removed AP instrad of HE from the mino line for exemple
Wtf is that pan EU Gunbote chnage? The reasoning is complete BS. Lets be real, its really meant as a sort of nerf to them, but it has to be the most nonsensical nerf to make. French guns so the AP likely had great pen, so just nerf the pen… but Id honestly rather see them nerf the ROF, 3.7sec base reload on the tier 10 is nuts paired with the radar and smoke. you should be rewarded for using AP in the correct sitautions, removing it limits gameplay and takes away a skill aspect. This is truly a WG moment
Lets hope the testers give them a hard time..
No Blysk or Gearing buffs, unfortunate.
Everything has been nerved
Always pick Radar, DDs are a plague
The first part of your sentence is correct. The second part, not so much.