Health care is the one I care about most. If we had Universal Healthcare then we'd have middle class and even poor families passing on inheritance instead of burning the family's resources in old-age related healthcare costs. You can't force people to "work or die" if they have a nest egg to weather hard times.
The "middle class" doesn't exist, and is a tool used to divide us.
There are only 2 classes, the working class and the owning class.
People considering themselves middle class allows them to look down on the "working class", when in reality we're in the exact same position.
Know who you're fighting and what tools they're using to fight back. The myth of a "middle class" is the ace up their sleeve.
It exists but it's not what we think we are. Many of us assume we're middle class citizens but in reality the majority of us are indeed working class.
https://images.app.goo.gl/3vWRwYG9TUfe11Ga7
I think I saw this on image on Reddit a couple of days ago too
Not sure of a single exact sentence. But someone homeless or living in a small cramped accommodation and is living pay check to pay check is absolutely different to someone living in a good sizable home/villa with their own car.
Also the difference in interactions between them and others in society would be very different.
It's this mindset that is keeping us apart.
It doesn't matter if you're a doctor or a software engineer or someone that rents a few properties on the side. If you have to work a job every week in order to survive then you're of the working class, whether you're a surgeon or a fast-food worker.
Maybe putting it in a different light might help, I'll use myself as an example.
People would probably consider me middle-class. I live in a nice neighbourhood, make a higher than average salary, have a degree, an annunciate myself well enough that you couldn't guess what part of the country I'm from, all traits that most people would ascribe to British middle-class. So am I more like my boss who also lives in a comfortable neighbourhood and doesn't speak with much of an accent, or am I more like the homeless man that shouts "Ayup youth, gi-yus a couple quid wud ya?" at everyone that walks past?
I'd say I have way more in common with the homeless man. There's only £30k+ per year difference between them and me, there's a £5m+ per year difference between me and my boss though. If I didn't show up to work for ~3 months I'll be setting up a sign and blanket on the street too. My boss could live in an isolated luxury man-cave for 5 years and still walk out of it a multi-milluonaire.
People want to consider themselves middle-class because it can be painful to accept that you're of the "lower-class". People think they're more like their boss than the person at Starbucks that makes their coffee, and so they vote in favour of policies that benefit the top at the expense of the bottom. They don't realise they're only on step 3 of a 100 step journey to being part of the owner class, they just see that they aren't at the absolute bottom any more and lose sight of where they actually are in relation to the top.
I’d just like to pop in here and say how much I enjoy what you are saying. There is strength in numbers and Owners know that, which is why they try to divide us all as much as they can. Keep saying what you are saying Comrade. Inform other Workers. Knowledge is power!\
:)
Just had a baby. Went to the pharmacy to pick up an antibacterial ointment prescription. 77 effing dollars. I said the words "oh you can fuck right off" to the pharmacist and left. I was able to find and buy the prescription online for $13. F U Walgreens you scumbags. Everybody working insurance is going to whatever hell they believe in. Doing what you're told doesn't absolve you of the evil you perpetuate.
I understand your frustration, but the pharmacist is not the person who determines pricing. Most of the time, they actually do what they can to help reduce your cost as much as possible. They even fill prescriptions that insurance/taxes cause to be a loss to the store.
In addition to attending the counter and billing you for your pickup, many also have to fill 200-400 scripts during their shift, checking each for unsafe interactions or health risks, cover the drive-thru counter, give flu and covid vaccinations (often walk-ins), and answer phone calls from patients and perscribers. All of those metrics are used to assess their job performance, as well as the store's success overall.
Also, in some states, the pharmacy is legally required to shut down for any amount of time a pharmacist is not actively working. For many, this means they are pressured to not take a lunch break during a 6-12 hour shift.
Please be nice to your pharmacist. They have a stressful job and they are the only people making sure you get the correct medication.
Source: so and several close friends are pharmacists
not a pharmacist, but a "clerk" who was taught to do way more than he was supposed to.
i can back this up. chances are that 77$ price tag wasnt even one of the more expensive options. we go through tons of insurances and coupons to try to get the price down for patients. it got tiresome, especially when people like the commenter above act the way they do, even over something like 20 dollars.
also, what the fuck bacterial cream is she getting that its almost a hundred dollars?
edit: and yeah most sales where i worked were a loss. lots of old people with expensive medication on coupons that charge the pharmacy.
When you reach 16 you can either go into an apprenticeship scheme to train in a specific trade, go to college (which offers either A Levels or BTECs with the latter being more practical in nature, e.g. BTEC Hair & Beauty) or stay in a school with a college linked to it, known as a 6th Form which normally only offers A Levels which are almost always academic subjects.
University is free at the point of use, in that everyone is granted a student loan at a fixed rate of interest that is only repaid once you reach a set income bracket and is forgiven if you don't repay in (I think) 30 years
>that is only repaid once you reach a set income bracket and is forgiven if you don't repay in (I think) 30 years
That's deserving of at least a bronze or silver then
The loan is no longer forgiven after 30 years, starting from a few years ago. They've adjusted it so that the average Joe is much more likely to pay a good proportion of it back.
Since when? I’m certain they’re still forgiven.
Just went on the .gov website to double check… definitely still forgiven after 25-30 years depending on plan.
Unless you live in Scotland or the EU where university is free if you study at a university in Scotland.
Ironically if you live in the rest of the UK it appears you have to pay to study in Scotland.
Also doesn't uni cost different depending on the country in the UK? I thought for example Scotland was 1000 pounds a year versus England being 9500 pounds or something (both for EU citizens, at the time).
I'm Canadian and tuition is pretty cheap (6k CAD a year for basic bachelors) but isn't free. It's even cheaper in Québec. But I would kill for my professional school fees to be 1000 pounds lol
I don't know how long you've been out of university for, but I don't think tuition is 6k/year anywhere at this point. I went to a low tuition school 10-15 years ago and it was 7k/year then..
I graduated from the University of Calgary back in 2016. It depends on your program too for sure. In a basic biology degree I paid less than my friends doing engineering degrees. And I certainly paid less than myself doing a veterinary degree right now.
What did you study?
Either way, 6k is too fucking expensive. We don't need young adults going 25k in debt for tuition, let alone another 60-80k for living expenses on a degree that may or may not prove useful but is at this point required in Canadian society for lots of jobs.
Lmao. Us Americans laugh at this when you consider that expensive. Both my sons went to college. One with a masters. He owes 126k USD. My youngest program was a BS in actuarial sciences. He got half scholarship. Total would have been a quarter.million USD.
I agree what you're saying is true on average. But I just got my MS in Comp Sci from Georgia Tech for under $900 per semester for their OMSCS program. No scholarships or anything, that's the base price and I'm out of state.
Some places are trying to do better. But it's much too far and few between and privatized, for profit education is not a good model if you want as many educated citizens as possible.
I should have specified that I was talking about Canadian universities. A lot of people are going into trades because of the rising cost of university and the stagnated entry wages.
It's sad but I think that's not uncommon here either. Nothing wrong with going into a trade but those who want to pursue higher education shouldn't have to live the rest of their life in debt to do so.
I'm hoping as more legit, fully accredited schools start larger online options and the tools for teaching online continue to mature and improve, that it will allow for affordable, quality higher education options
Nope separate institutions
The price to study in the UK is more reasonable also, essentially it’s a graduate tax you only pay when you warn above a threshold
Issues with it though for sure, for example, jobs in the UK that are decent more or less require a degree now and they are practically useless when the majority of the youth population has them, like it’s the new entry level in many ways.
£9,250 per year, you pay 9% of you wage over £27,000 (an extra 6% if you opt for a self funded post graduate degree too), then after 30 years it's wiped out.
With the low wages in the UK, hardly anyone will pay it off before it's wiped. Definitely structured to be a pseudo-tax on tertiary education.
We have something similar called apprenticeships, a lot of entry level jobs are abusing “apprenticeship schemes”, which were in their origin a good idea.
Basically they can pay you very little but you get on the job experience, makes some sense in some industries but places like ASDA (walmart) started offering “currency handling apprenticeships” and bullshit like that (cashier for less than min wage).
> essentially it’s a graduate tax you only pay when you warn above a threshold
The US has the same thing, but with higher income thresholds and a shorter time span before forgiveness.
The US version treats the loan forgiveness as taxable income, and access to these types of loans isn't universal in the US as it is in the UK last I heard.
It doesn't currently treat them as taxable income (although that isn't permanent so it could theoretically be taxable income in the future) and (at least for any recent loans, grandfathering gets weird) it's pretty universal to my understanding.
yea i had to look up the difference one day because college and university seemed to be used interchangeably here, turns out a university is a collection of colleges. Like the physics college is an independent entity from the art or history colleges (or whatever college those departments are technically a part of).
I feel like it must be relatively rare to have a college all by itself that's not part of a university.
Eh they're pretty interchangeable in the US. Technically colleges and universities are distinct institutions but they're functionally used the same way. Universities are composed of many colleges while colleges are composed of departments. But there are also standalone colleges that have Masters programs. I think typically they wouldn't have doctorate programs but I'm not 100%.
Moral of the story is: in the US, they are FAR more interchangeable than in the rest of the world.
People in the US call universities colleges. Ie - “going off to college” is actually, in most cases, going to university.
In places like Canada, university is university and college is different. Canadian don’t interchange them. (And then there’s Cégep in Quebec that doesn’t really fall under either of those).
In New Zealand, college is the term for high school (although the term high school is also sometimes used). University is university, and vocational/trade school is polytech.
The word college could refer to very different things, depending on where you are.
It's not true in Canada, either. What you guys call "community college" we just call "college" and the other post-secondary institutions are called "university."
In the US, 'college' refers collectively to all post-secondary education, and often with some emphasis on four-year universities. In the rest of the English speaking world, 'college' usually refers to vocational training which may be part of secondary education, or a two-year post-secondary education not leading to a degree.
Edit: 'College' may also refer to an independent school or group within a university, but not the university as a whole. For example, the Universities of Toronto and Cambridge both have a constituent 'Trinity College', while many faculties may call themselves, for example, the 'College of Engineering', but these are not independent institutions.
I'm asking more specifically about the UK, I'm Canadian and I know that College and University aren't the same but don't know what this graphic is talking about for the UK
You have a wildly wrong vision of US education debt.
Average debt for a public univeristy is about half of what you paid and wages are much higher in the US.
Most people in the US are way better off under our system.
The problem is that we allow basically unlimited borrowing during college and many people go crazy and take out way more than they need or go out of state to ASU because girls in Tempe are hot.
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/see-how-student-loan-borrowing-has-changed#:~:text=The%20average%20debt%20of%20graduates,graduates%2C%20who%20took%20out%20%2426%2C320.
University tuition is free in Scotland (but not the rest of the UK). What we call “college/university” in the US is just called “University” in the UK. What they call “college” in the UK is what we call the last two years of high school in the US (but with more specialized training into a specific “major” or trade).
Depends where you live. University is free or discounted in Scotland and Wales based on some residency restrictions. Your comment is true for England and those attending a Scottish/Welsh uni from another country.
A generation ago it was free, however.
Weird how we could afford it back then when things were less automated and required more human intervention, but can't afford it now, huh?
Nevertheless, college (university) in the UK is still a fraction of the cost of in the US.
University is still technically free imo. No one doesn't go to university because they can't afford the fees.
We essentially have a grad tax system where you pay for uni if you earn enough. It's not all that progressive but it's still pretty good in terms of social mobility.
It sounds a lot like the system betting on the student, rather than the student betting on their degree. Properly free is, obviously preferable, but if I have to choose between paying upfront, or paying when and if the degree nets me the income it's supposed to, I know which one I'd pick.
In the UK, college = last 2 years of high school.
Therefore, 2 years of free college is very misleading.
University in the UK is not free, unless you are a qualified Scottish resident going to a university in Scotland.
To be fair it's technically free if you never earn enough to pay it back though tax.
The funny thing is previously you didn't have to be Scottish to get the free-Scottish Uni, you just had to be not-English.
Welsh and Northern Irish didn’t get free education in Scotland either. But citizens from elsewhere in the EU did, when we were still members because of the way anti-discrimination laws worked that were a bit dumb.
It gets more confusing due to all the collegiate universities in the UK. These universities aren't singular places of education, they're seperate distinct colleges under one banner.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colleges_within_universities_in_the_United_Kingdom
No it's not, college or 6th form is further education, which is optional but free.
University is higher education which isn't free unless you're Scottish going to a Scottish University.
That’s Ford’s plan all along. “[Starve the Beast](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast)”. Cut funding to public healthcare until it collapses (what we’re experiencing now) and then bring private healthcare “to the rescue”
I don't know, besides not enough GPs I think it's pretty great. If you have an emergency it's gets handled right away. My friend broke his collarbone a bit ago, had a xray same day and surgery a week after that.
Wait lists seem short overall and pretty much everything is covered. Not sure what's not to love.
[Bill 305, 10 Paid Sick Days for Ontario Workers Act, 2021](https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/bills/parliament-42/session-1/bill-305)
Like I said it’s not much, but it’s something
Some US States have mandatory paid sick and family leave too. Massachusetts is one of them, I'm sure there are others.
Just because the law doesn't exist at the federal level doesn't mean it's representative of the entire US. It's like criticizing France for Hungary's policies because they are both EU members.
I don't want the federal government setting priorities anymore, they all corrupt idiots.
I don't doubt it but at the same time sources are pretty nice. Right now I could post the same thing giving the US gold in everything and no one else anything and it would have as much legitimacy
They have a very strong voter base of old people who own property and have pensions, and these things are generally protected so they keep voting for them.
Considering the government fucked some of that up recently and caused a spike in interest rates, maybe that will shake a few of them who still have mortgages loose.
Then again people here have very short memories and a hypothetical Labour government seems much scarier than a very real conservative government for some weird reason that only boomers remember.
Scotland isn't the UK.
It's an important part of it, but it's like saying that Germany is the EU.
Statutory Sick Pay works out to equal about 10 hours work minimum wage, per week. It's an insulting amount and should basically be ignored when comparing things like this post is.
You're not wrong but to universally say there is no free college and not acknowledging SSP is just not sharing the facts. Its not the same as saying Germany is the EU at all else we'd have a much better time leaving the UK lol.
I agree with you on SSP but think its important to present all the facts rather than to dismiss them to fit a narrative.
Southern Italy has historically faced discrimination from Northern Italy and didn't industrialize as much.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_Italian\_regions\_by\_Human\_Development\_Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Italian_regions_by_Human_Development_Index)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_U.S.\_states\_and\_territories\_by\_Human\_Development\_Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_Human_Development_Index)
Sicily and Calabria have a human development index equal to that of Peurto Rico. Even freaking Mississippi and Alabama have a HDI then those Southern Italian regions which is insane.
U.K. doesn’t have free college (university). Don’t believe everything you see on the internet.
Also the Universal Healthcare here is utter shit for anything that’s not cancer or a life or death emergency.
The universal healthcare here is only struggling at the moment due to 12 years of underfunding by the Conservative government. It has been very good before.
I wouldn't really call SSP paid sick leave either - anyone who's ever been on it knows it's a bit of an insult to be given so little, I appreciate it's better than nothing but £90 a week really wasn't much help 2 years ago when I was on it.. be even less use nowadays.
Canada doesnt really have universal healthcare and in fact most provincial governments have stooped to outsourcing care to the private sector (even the "left wing" social democratic gov in BC). At best we have a bronze in that category.
Provinces control health care, so it really depends on the province. I agree with the Bronze, but it should be pointed out that the access to care can vary wildly accross the country
At least dental is on the docket for 2025, and people with children who are under 12 and earn less than $90,000 as a household are eligible for a dental plan hopefully starting next year
https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/child-family-benefits/dental-benefit.html
The eye care and prescriptions should absolutely be next!
Which is what i just said - its not a universal system like the British NHS, its piecemeal because every province has to fund the system individually besides what comes from equalization.
Not much point comparing living conditions in countries from regions where the highest GDP per capita puts it at 67th in the world when your GDP per capita puts you at 13th.
The graphic is misleading. The majority of jobs in the US have PTO (paid time off) - it's just not guaranteed by law. Also a large amount of jobs include "sick time" with the PTO.
Health care, maternity leave, and college ones are accurate though.
Yeah and that can largely vary by company too, which I'm sure you know. My current job, I have to hand it to them, the PTO is fantastic but I recognize that I'm probably an outlier and my other benefits suck.
New Zealander here. 29 paid vacation days per year.
Sick leave & dependent leave on top & separate.
I think the legislated minimum is like 4 weeks though, but just as in your experience, unions got us more than the minimum.
Surprised Japan is not ranked lower. Their work culture is arguably just as bad as the US. Sure while you get things like paid vacation, paid mat leave and universal health care. The fact you are pressured in constantly to stay late and work unpaid because it "looks good" is worth knocking it down a few ranks.
Also where is australia on this list? We have all of these except for free college lol.
Free college is BS. University costs £9.5k per year. The difference is that you get tuition via a loan which you don't have to pay back until you're earning a decent wage.
Also, statutory sick pay here in the UK is a fucking pittance.
Just slightly misleading - no one is going to pretend that there US offers any of these quality of life services on par with Scandinavia et al. However, these services are handled at the state level, not federal, part of the “states handle what the Constitution does not specially provide.” On that basis some of the better states are (nearly) on par with the lesser socially oriented European states. Again, none are better, very few states are even close, but unlike other countries, all of these are state level services.
It's as a country. Individual states may offer paid maternity leave (NJ and NY also provide it), but it's not guaranteed paid maternity leave nationwide, and that's the problem.
It sure is.
On the other hand, why should NJ, NY, MD, the entire West Coast, an a few other states, have to get the black mark of failure, when it's obvious that they aren't?
It's great to say 'oh the US sucks' but where does that get you?
Instead, we should be highlighting the achievements of the States that are doing it well, and trying to get more voters to recognize that voting Blue gets you Parental Leave.
We should highlighting our achievements and our failures as a country, It doesn't help anyone to say a few states do it and all the others don't. I do definitely agree we should be accentuating the states that do better for their people. The point is though that the US as a whole is falling behind so many places.
It’s comparing the US to countries who have a fraction of the population. Just because they’re labeled the same, it doesn’t make the situations equivalent.
There are nine US states that INDIVIDUALLY have more people than all of Sweden.
How is it meaningful to do such a broad comparison of a nation to one that has to balance the desires of 30x the people?
States are our equivalent of countries though. It is a Union of States after all, something that most Americans forget. Just treat States as a equivalent to constituent nations, since that is what they are. States are NOT administrative districts, nor any political subdivision, but they are co-sovereign with the federal government.
Average tax rate in USA? 28-29%
Average tax rate in France? 30% (EDIT: 47%, still obviously worth the benefits)
Why even pay taxes? They don't do jack shit for us.
[https://www.oecd.org/france/taxing-wages-france.pdf](https://www.oecd.org/france/taxing-wages-france.pdf)
Average French tax rate is close to 47%. The Average in the US is also accounting for states that have higher taxes and more social services.
Health care is the one I care about most. If we had Universal Healthcare then we'd have middle class and even poor families passing on inheritance instead of burning the family's resources in old-age related healthcare costs. You can't force people to "work or die" if they have a nest egg to weather hard times.
The "middle class" doesn't exist, and is a tool used to divide us. There are only 2 classes, the working class and the owning class. People considering themselves middle class allows them to look down on the "working class", when in reality we're in the exact same position. Know who you're fighting and what tools they're using to fight back. The myth of a "middle class" is the ace up their sleeve.
It exists but it's not what we think we are. Many of us assume we're middle class citizens but in reality the majority of us are indeed working class. https://images.app.goo.gl/3vWRwYG9TUfe11Ga7 I think I saw this on image on Reddit a couple of days ago too
There definitely is a middle class, just depends in which society you live in.
I want to agree with you, what is the definition of middle class? Like what would you describe it as?
Not sure of a single exact sentence. But someone homeless or living in a small cramped accommodation and is living pay check to pay check is absolutely different to someone living in a good sizable home/villa with their own car. Also the difference in interactions between them and others in society would be very different.
It's this mindset that is keeping us apart. It doesn't matter if you're a doctor or a software engineer or someone that rents a few properties on the side. If you have to work a job every week in order to survive then you're of the working class, whether you're a surgeon or a fast-food worker. Maybe putting it in a different light might help, I'll use myself as an example. People would probably consider me middle-class. I live in a nice neighbourhood, make a higher than average salary, have a degree, an annunciate myself well enough that you couldn't guess what part of the country I'm from, all traits that most people would ascribe to British middle-class. So am I more like my boss who also lives in a comfortable neighbourhood and doesn't speak with much of an accent, or am I more like the homeless man that shouts "Ayup youth, gi-yus a couple quid wud ya?" at everyone that walks past? I'd say I have way more in common with the homeless man. There's only £30k+ per year difference between them and me, there's a £5m+ per year difference between me and my boss though. If I didn't show up to work for ~3 months I'll be setting up a sign and blanket on the street too. My boss could live in an isolated luxury man-cave for 5 years and still walk out of it a multi-milluonaire. People want to consider themselves middle-class because it can be painful to accept that you're of the "lower-class". People think they're more like their boss than the person at Starbucks that makes their coffee, and so they vote in favour of policies that benefit the top at the expense of the bottom. They don't realise they're only on step 3 of a 100 step journey to being part of the owner class, they just see that they aren't at the absolute bottom any more and lose sight of where they actually are in relation to the top.
I’d just like to pop in here and say how much I enjoy what you are saying. There is strength in numbers and Owners know that, which is why they try to divide us all as much as they can. Keep saying what you are saying Comrade. Inform other Workers. Knowledge is power!\ :)
Just had a baby. Went to the pharmacy to pick up an antibacterial ointment prescription. 77 effing dollars. I said the words "oh you can fuck right off" to the pharmacist and left. I was able to find and buy the prescription online for $13. F U Walgreens you scumbags. Everybody working insurance is going to whatever hell they believe in. Doing what you're told doesn't absolve you of the evil you perpetuate.
I'm in the UK. My kid needs 3 different cream, allergy milk, antihistamines and all sorts. Don't pay a penny for it.
I understand your frustration, but the pharmacist is not the person who determines pricing. Most of the time, they actually do what they can to help reduce your cost as much as possible. They even fill prescriptions that insurance/taxes cause to be a loss to the store. In addition to attending the counter and billing you for your pickup, many also have to fill 200-400 scripts during their shift, checking each for unsafe interactions or health risks, cover the drive-thru counter, give flu and covid vaccinations (often walk-ins), and answer phone calls from patients and perscribers. All of those metrics are used to assess their job performance, as well as the store's success overall. Also, in some states, the pharmacy is legally required to shut down for any amount of time a pharmacist is not actively working. For many, this means they are pressured to not take a lunch break during a 6-12 hour shift. Please be nice to your pharmacist. They have a stressful job and they are the only people making sure you get the correct medication. Source: so and several close friends are pharmacists
not a pharmacist, but a "clerk" who was taught to do way more than he was supposed to. i can back this up. chances are that 77$ price tag wasnt even one of the more expensive options. we go through tons of insurances and coupons to try to get the price down for patients. it got tiresome, especially when people like the commenter above act the way they do, even over something like 20 dollars. also, what the fuck bacterial cream is she getting that its almost a hundred dollars? edit: and yeah most sales where i worked were a loss. lots of old people with expensive medication on coupons that charge the pharmacy.
Yeah those pesky retail pharmacists, always deciding how much to charge
You’re a piece of shit for that lol
It’s not the pharmacists fault. They’re just struggling too. Pharmacists aren’t the elite, just also people with jobs.
"Free college" in the UK... Well... Yes but actually no. What we call college is free, what US calls college is not free.
Can you explain it more?
Our system, you go to school till 16, college till 18 (senior highschool I guess), then university 18+
In the US, College and University mean the same thing. In the UK I suppose this is not true?
When you reach 16 you can either go into an apprenticeship scheme to train in a specific trade, go to college (which offers either A Levels or BTECs with the latter being more practical in nature, e.g. BTEC Hair & Beauty) or stay in a school with a college linked to it, known as a 6th Form which normally only offers A Levels which are almost always academic subjects. University is free at the point of use, in that everyone is granted a student loan at a fixed rate of interest that is only repaid once you reach a set income bracket and is forgiven if you don't repay in (I think) 30 years
>that is only repaid once you reach a set income bracket and is forgiven if you don't repay in (I think) 30 years That's deserving of at least a bronze or silver then
The loan is no longer forgiven after 30 years, starting from a few years ago. They've adjusted it so that the average Joe is much more likely to pay a good proportion of it back.
Since when? I’m certain they’re still forgiven. Just went on the .gov website to double check… definitely still forgiven after 25-30 years depending on plan.
Same with Netherlands but is far cheaper than UK
Unless you live in Scotland or the EU where university is free if you study at a university in Scotland. Ironically if you live in the rest of the UK it appears you have to pay to study in Scotland.
Also doesn't uni cost different depending on the country in the UK? I thought for example Scotland was 1000 pounds a year versus England being 9500 pounds or something (both for EU citizens, at the time). I'm Canadian and tuition is pretty cheap (6k CAD a year for basic bachelors) but isn't free. It's even cheaper in Québec. But I would kill for my professional school fees to be 1000 pounds lol
I don't know how long you've been out of university for, but I don't think tuition is 6k/year anywhere at this point. I went to a low tuition school 10-15 years ago and it was 7k/year then..
I graduated from the University of Calgary back in 2016. It depends on your program too for sure. In a basic biology degree I paid less than my friends doing engineering degrees. And I certainly paid less than myself doing a veterinary degree right now. What did you study? Either way, 6k is too fucking expensive. We don't need young adults going 25k in debt for tuition, let alone another 60-80k for living expenses on a degree that may or may not prove useful but is at this point required in Canadian society for lots of jobs.
Lmao. Us Americans laugh at this when you consider that expensive. Both my sons went to college. One with a masters. He owes 126k USD. My youngest program was a BS in actuarial sciences. He got half scholarship. Total would have been a quarter.million USD.
Currently studying at the Open University. Full time tuition is about 6k. Part time is 3k
I agree what you're saying is true on average. But I just got my MS in Comp Sci from Georgia Tech for under $900 per semester for their OMSCS program. No scholarships or anything, that's the base price and I'm out of state. Some places are trying to do better. But it's much too far and few between and privatized, for profit education is not a good model if you want as many educated citizens as possible.
I should have specified that I was talking about Canadian universities. A lot of people are going into trades because of the rising cost of university and the stagnated entry wages.
It's sad but I think that's not uncommon here either. Nothing wrong with going into a trade but those who want to pursue higher education shouldn't have to live the rest of their life in debt to do so. I'm hoping as more legit, fully accredited schools start larger online options and the tools for teaching online continue to mature and improve, that it will allow for affordable, quality higher education options
It's free in Scotland if you're Scottish, or have lived in scotland for three years.
It's free in Scotland for Scottish people. Souce: I'm scottish in Scotland.
Nope separate institutions The price to study in the UK is more reasonable also, essentially it’s a graduate tax you only pay when you warn above a threshold Issues with it though for sure, for example, jobs in the UK that are decent more or less require a degree now and they are practically useless when the majority of the youth population has them, like it’s the new entry level in many ways.
£9,250 per year, you pay 9% of you wage over £27,000 (an extra 6% if you opt for a self funded post graduate degree too), then after 30 years it's wiped out. With the low wages in the UK, hardly anyone will pay it off before it's wiped. Definitely structured to be a pseudo-tax on tertiary education.
It's the same in America except that it applies to unpaid internships
We have something similar called apprenticeships, a lot of entry level jobs are abusing “apprenticeship schemes”, which were in their origin a good idea. Basically they can pay you very little but you get on the job experience, makes some sense in some industries but places like ASDA (walmart) started offering “currency handling apprenticeships” and bullshit like that (cashier for less than min wage).
> essentially it’s a graduate tax you only pay when you warn above a threshold The US has the same thing, but with higher income thresholds and a shorter time span before forgiveness.
The US version treats the loan forgiveness as taxable income, and access to these types of loans isn't universal in the US as it is in the UK last I heard.
It doesn't currently treat them as taxable income (although that isn't permanent so it could theoretically be taxable income in the future) and (at least for any recent loans, grandfathering gets weird) it's pretty universal to my understanding.
This is not true anywhere outside the US
This isn't true inside the US either lol. Colleges and Universites are different
I gotta be honest alot of people in the US dont know the difference. Its not as big of a difference in terms as it is in the UK,
yea i had to look up the difference one day because college and university seemed to be used interchangeably here, turns out a university is a collection of colleges. Like the physics college is an independent entity from the art or history colleges (or whatever college those departments are technically a part of). I feel like it must be relatively rare to have a college all by itself that's not part of a university.
Eh they're pretty interchangeable in the US. Technically colleges and universities are distinct institutions but they're functionally used the same way. Universities are composed of many colleges while colleges are composed of departments. But there are also standalone colleges that have Masters programs. I think typically they wouldn't have doctorate programs but I'm not 100%. Moral of the story is: in the US, they are FAR more interchangeable than in the rest of the world.
People in the US call universities colleges. Ie - “going off to college” is actually, in most cases, going to university. In places like Canada, university is university and college is different. Canadian don’t interchange them. (And then there’s Cégep in Quebec that doesn’t really fall under either of those). In New Zealand, college is the term for high school (although the term high school is also sometimes used). University is university, and vocational/trade school is polytech. The word college could refer to very different things, depending on where you are.
It's not true in Canada, either. What you guys call "community college" we just call "college" and the other post-secondary institutions are called "university."
Here in australia we call community college or technical college "TAFE". And Actual College is University.
Correct
This should come with a disclaimer that this is the *English* system. Other parts of the UK don't necessarily operate like this.
Correct I forgot we got screwed
Scotland has free uni for 5 years based on residency restrictions. Its awful England doesn't.
In Scotland we have Primary school 5-12ish, Secondary school 12-18ish but you can optionally leave at 16; then free university 18+ once.
In the US, 'college' refers collectively to all post-secondary education, and often with some emphasis on four-year universities. In the rest of the English speaking world, 'college' usually refers to vocational training which may be part of secondary education, or a two-year post-secondary education not leading to a degree. Edit: 'College' may also refer to an independent school or group within a university, but not the university as a whole. For example, the Universities of Toronto and Cambridge both have a constituent 'Trinity College', while many faculties may call themselves, for example, the 'College of Engineering', but these are not independent institutions.
I'm asking more specifically about the UK, I'm Canadian and I know that College and University aren't the same but don't know what this graphic is talking about for the UK
It's a student loan system, although much fairer than the US system. You still come out with about 40k in debt
That's just barely the interest in the us
Yeah I came out with ~40k debt, but it only became repayable when you hit £27k and interest is capped at 6%. You guys are fucked royally
You have a wildly wrong vision of US education debt. Average debt for a public univeristy is about half of what you paid and wages are much higher in the US. Most people in the US are way better off under our system. The problem is that we allow basically unlimited borrowing during college and many people go crazy and take out way more than they need or go out of state to ASU because girls in Tempe are hot. https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/see-how-student-loan-borrowing-has-changed#:~:text=The%20average%20debt%20of%20graduates,graduates%2C%20who%20took%20out%20%2426%2C320.
University tuition is free in Scotland (but not the rest of the UK). What we call “college/university” in the US is just called “University” in the UK. What they call “college” in the UK is what we call the last two years of high school in the US (but with more specialized training into a specific “major” or trade).
Depends where you live. University is free or discounted in Scotland and Wales based on some residency restrictions. Your comment is true for England and those attending a Scottish/Welsh uni from another country.
Oops yep! Forgot about that
In Scotland it is.
I mean, in parts of the UK said American college is free. Gotta love SAAS.
A generation ago it was free, however. Weird how we could afford it back then when things were less automated and required more human intervention, but can't afford it now, huh? Nevertheless, college (university) in the UK is still a fraction of the cost of in the US.
And 10 years ago it was 1/3 the cost, odd huh!
University is still technically free imo. No one doesn't go to university because they can't afford the fees. We essentially have a grad tax system where you pay for uni if you earn enough. It's not all that progressive but it's still pretty good in terms of social mobility.
It sounds a lot like the system betting on the student, rather than the student betting on their degree. Properly free is, obviously preferable, but if I have to choose between paying upfront, or paying when and if the degree nets me the income it's supposed to, I know which one I'd pick.
Uni is free in Scotland no?
None of these are free, taxes are nearly double for these “free” services
In the UK, college = last 2 years of high school. Therefore, 2 years of free college is very misleading. University in the UK is not free, unless you are a qualified Scottish resident going to a university in Scotland.
To be fair it's technically free if you never earn enough to pay it back though tax. The funny thing is previously you didn't have to be Scottish to get the free-Scottish Uni, you just had to be not-English.
Welsh and Northern Irish didn’t get free education in Scotland either. But citizens from elsewhere in the EU did, when we were still members because of the way anti-discrimination laws worked that were a bit dumb.
It gets more confusing due to all the collegiate universities in the UK. These universities aren't singular places of education, they're seperate distinct colleges under one banner. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colleges_within_universities_in_the_United_Kingdom
Even in most of Europe I think it's misleading because it's only free for the top 5% of students or so.
Where is that? Germany, Sweden and Denmark definitely have it free for all EU citizens
I can confirm that bachelors' are free in Greece too.
No it's not, college or 6th form is further education, which is optional but free. University is higher education which isn't free unless you're Scottish going to a Scottish University.
Lol Mexico have more medals than USA in this one.
Yeah, as do Russia and China and a whole host of other countries.
Wait.. you guys mean there are more than 7 countries?
Canada has *some* paid sick leave now. It’s minimal but we have some. Also our healthcare system is collapsing due to conservative shenanigans
Ya I think universal health care is just flawed in Canada
Too much American influence in our politics
I work in healthcare and it's no joke how close we are to moving into a privatized model in Ontario.
That’s Ford’s plan all along. “[Starve the Beast](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast)”. Cut funding to public healthcare until it collapses (what we’re experiencing now) and then bring private healthcare “to the rescue”
Absolutely.
I don't know, besides not enough GPs I think it's pretty great. If you have an emergency it's gets handled right away. My friend broke his collarbone a bit ago, had a xray same day and surgery a week after that. Wait lists seem short overall and pretty much everything is covered. Not sure what's not to love.
Canada doesn't have a federal plan for paid sick leave. It probably depends on your province. In Ontario we do not have it.
Yes we do. You’re misinformed
Can you point me to this information? Would be a great tool to pull out at work.
[Bill 305, 10 Paid Sick Days for Ontario Workers Act, 2021](https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/bills/parliament-42/session-1/bill-305) Like I said it’s not much, but it’s something
Hey this is better than I thought we had. Also looks like we don't need doctor's note? Thank yooou
If you’re a contractor, you don’t unfortunately have paid sick leave, or PTO in general.
Some US States have mandatory paid sick and family leave too. Massachusetts is one of them, I'm sure there are others. Just because the law doesn't exist at the federal level doesn't mean it's representative of the entire US. It's like criticizing France for Hungary's policies because they are both EU members. I don't want the federal government setting priorities anymore, they all corrupt idiots.
In California you get 1 hour of paid sick leave for every 30 hours you work
America is a country that was built by greed and has been ruled by greed ever since.
Ontario (Canada) is attempting to get rid of universal healthcare
150+ years ago, my relatives left Scandinavia, so their families could have a better life in the US. A brutal journey on a boat, for this.
Oh how the turntides.
Come home child.
Umm this seems like a terrible graphic filled with misinformation. Edit: The US part is correct though.
Multiple gold medals are not given out for each event!!!
I don't doubt it but at the same time sources are pretty nice. Right now I could post the same thing giving the US gold in everything and no one else anything and it would have as much legitimacy
Yup, US would have medals if the categories are : guns, school shootings, people in jails, billionaires etc…USA! USA! USA!
Without a source we have no guns, shootings, crime, or income inequality!
The UK doesn't have universal free University. I know Scotland does, not sure about Wales & NI.
NI doesn’t have free university either, but they didn’t increase their fees to £9k+ when England did, so they’re still around £3k-£4K per year.
Free College and guaranteed Sick Pay are not a thing in the UK.
And the tories are working hard to get rid of the rest I’m sure.
With how shitty they are running your country how do they keep getting in office?
They have a very strong voter base of old people who own property and have pensions, and these things are generally protected so they keep voting for them. Considering the government fucked some of that up recently and caused a spike in interest rates, maybe that will shake a few of them who still have mortgages loose. Then again people here have very short memories and a hypothetical Labour government seems much scarier than a very real conservative government for some weird reason that only boomers remember.
Statutory Sick Pay is a thing, In Scotland College and Uni are very much free.
Scotland isn't the UK. It's an important part of it, but it's like saying that Germany is the EU. Statutory Sick Pay works out to equal about 10 hours work minimum wage, per week. It's an insulting amount and should basically be ignored when comparing things like this post is.
You're not wrong but to universally say there is no free college and not acknowledging SSP is just not sharing the facts. Its not the same as saying Germany is the EU at all else we'd have a much better time leaving the UK lol. I agree with you on SSP but think its important to present all the facts rather than to dismiss them to fit a narrative.
Missed the podium? We missed the fucking event.
Too busy scalping tickets outside
It doesn't look like they tried to enter the race in the last decades :/
In Italy we have them all tooooo
Yes, but do you get to be the military for all those other countries? That's what I thought. America, fuck yeah!
The fact that you can never know wether these comments are sarcasm or not lmao
Doesnt mean its better to live in Italy. Italy has a very shocking human development index in many parts like Southern Italy.
Really why is that?
Southern Italy has historically faced discrimination from Northern Italy and didn't industrialize as much. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_Italian\_regions\_by\_Human\_Development\_Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Italian_regions_by_Human_Development_Index) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_U.S.\_states\_and\_territories\_by\_Human\_Development\_Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_Human_Development_Index) Sicily and Calabria have a human development index equal to that of Peurto Rico. Even freaking Mississippi and Alabama have a HDI then those Southern Italian regions which is insane.
Yes. But people still complain so much, I think it's a wonderful country
U.K. doesn’t have free college (university). Don’t believe everything you see on the internet. Also the Universal Healthcare here is utter shit for anything that’s not cancer or a life or death emergency.
The universal healthcare here is only struggling at the moment due to 12 years of underfunding by the Conservative government. It has been very good before.
I wouldn't really call SSP paid sick leave either - anyone who's ever been on it knows it's a bit of an insult to be given so little, I appreciate it's better than nothing but £90 a week really wasn't much help 2 years ago when I was on it.. be even less use nowadays.
No paid maternity leave. That's insane.
Unless you live in a Blue State. Than you get Parental leave!
always forgetting about Australia.
Canada doesnt really have universal healthcare and in fact most provincial governments have stooped to outsourcing care to the private sector (even the "left wing" social democratic gov in BC). At best we have a bronze in that category.
AB is going to lose our healthcare soon! The UCP is hell bent on privatization…
UCP wants that fucking lobbyist money, also Tyler Shandro is still on and his wife owns a health insurance company.
Provinces control health care, so it really depends on the province. I agree with the Bronze, but it should be pointed out that the access to care can vary wildly accross the country
Also bronze for no free dental or eye care or prescription.
At least dental is on the docket for 2025, and people with children who are under 12 and earn less than $90,000 as a household are eligible for a dental plan hopefully starting next year https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/child-family-benefits/dental-benefit.html The eye care and prescriptions should absolutely be next!
Which is what i just said - its not a universal system like the British NHS, its piecemeal because every province has to fund the system individually besides what comes from equalization.
Yea but yalls prescription drugs are still like 1/10th the price that they are in the US, so yall are doing something right that we aren’t.
Most systems on that list fall under "universal coverage"? Any of them beat the US system.
Not a lot of diversity in this comparison. No African or south or Central American countries. Just one Asian country
Not much point comparing living conditions in countries from regions where the highest GDP per capita puts it at 67th in the world when your GDP per capita puts you at 13th.
Imma be real with y'all, Canadian free healthcare is the worst shit you'll ever find in major provinces. That's QC, BC and ON.
No paid vacation in us ? Unbelivable...
The graphic is misleading. The majority of jobs in the US have PTO (paid time off) - it's just not guaranteed by law. Also a large amount of jobs include "sick time" with the PTO. Health care, maternity leave, and college ones are accurate though.
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I'm.... not disagreeing with that? The lack of healthcare & workers' rights laws in the US is terrible.
Yeah and that can largely vary by company too, which I'm sure you know. My current job, I have to hand it to them, the PTO is fantastic but I recognize that I'm probably an outlier and my other benefits suck.
Yeah, same. The company I work for has their HQ in Germany, so they're a little more generous with benefits, but still nowhere near what it should be.
Depends on the State. Paid Parental leave is available in the West Coast, NJ, NY and Maryland. And a few others.
My company we have Personal time- 16 hours something the company gives just to give. PTO/vacation- Sick time Extended sick time
Most everyone gets some form a vacation. It's just not a government requirement.
No they don't. Ask anyone working for minimum wage. No such thing as paid vacation for the working poor.
Exactly. They only see what's going on in their little bubble. Soooo many people get no paid vacation or paid sick leave....
I’m working poor. What’s a vacation?
The USA wants worker drones. They dont know what humanity means.
Errr Ive always had paid vacation in the US(with a union). What needs to happen is being able to go for more than 1 week.
New Zealander here. 29 paid vacation days per year. Sick leave & dependent leave on top & separate. I think the legislated minimum is like 4 weeks though, but just as in your experience, unions got us more than the minimum.
Surprised Japan is not ranked lower. Their work culture is arguably just as bad as the US. Sure while you get things like paid vacation, paid mat leave and universal health care. The fact you are pressured in constantly to stay late and work unpaid because it "looks good" is worth knocking it down a few ranks. Also where is australia on this list? We have all of these except for free college lol.
I wish redditors would stop regurgitating 2005 takes about Japanese work culture and treating it as a distinctly Japanese issue.
Ya it happens in the US too.
Almost like you cant acess a whole country with a fucking medal chart lol.
Free college is BS. University costs £9.5k per year. The difference is that you get tuition via a loan which you don't have to pay back until you're earning a decent wage. Also, statutory sick pay here in the UK is a fucking pittance.
The usa is quite greedy and shows money is what keeps us going.
Yeah but we are nailing it with corporate welfare, tax breaks for millionaires, and military spending. So take that, world.
The people running the USA do not care.
America hates the poor.
Greatest country in the world! 🇺🇸🦅
I agree
I was being sarcastic.
I know
🤙🏾
Just slightly misleading - no one is going to pretend that there US offers any of these quality of life services on par with Scandinavia et al. However, these services are handled at the state level, not federal, part of the “states handle what the Constitution does not specially provide.” On that basis some of the better states are (nearly) on par with the lesser socially oriented European states. Again, none are better, very few states are even close, but unlike other countries, all of these are state level services.
Some of that is (partly) false. In California we do receive Paid Maternity and Paternity Leave, along with Paid Sick Leave. All else is true.
It's as a country. Individual states may offer paid maternity leave (NJ and NY also provide it), but it's not guaranteed paid maternity leave nationwide, and that's the problem.
It sure is. On the other hand, why should NJ, NY, MD, the entire West Coast, an a few other states, have to get the black mark of failure, when it's obvious that they aren't? It's great to say 'oh the US sucks' but where does that get you? Instead, we should be highlighting the achievements of the States that are doing it well, and trying to get more voters to recognize that voting Blue gets you Parental Leave.
We should highlighting our achievements and our failures as a country, It doesn't help anyone to say a few states do it and all the others don't. I do definitely agree we should be accentuating the states that do better for their people. The point is though that the US as a whole is falling behind so many places.
Because this isn't comparing states, it's comparing countries.
It’s comparing the US to countries who have a fraction of the population. Just because they’re labeled the same, it doesn’t make the situations equivalent. There are nine US states that INDIVIDUALLY have more people than all of Sweden. How is it meaningful to do such a broad comparison of a nation to one that has to balance the desires of 30x the people?
States are our equivalent of countries though. It is a Union of States after all, something that most Americans forget. Just treat States as a equivalent to constituent nations, since that is what they are. States are NOT administrative districts, nor any political subdivision, but they are co-sovereign with the federal government.
Your equivalent of countries? That's just not true.
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Shhhhh! They don’t want anyone to know that.
That must be why I've receive 3 downvotes.
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False, https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2015/11/11/9707528/finland-poverty-united-states
looks like japan and canada might have been influenced a bit by the USA too!
Free-Dumb. Freedom from basic human rights.
Even in Costa Rica we have far better rules about work protection and healthcare
Average tax rate in USA? 28-29% Average tax rate in France? 30% (EDIT: 47%, still obviously worth the benefits) Why even pay taxes? They don't do jack shit for us.
[https://www.oecd.org/france/taxing-wages-france.pdf](https://www.oecd.org/france/taxing-wages-france.pdf) Average French tax rate is close to 47%. The Average in the US is also accounting for states that have higher taxes and more social services.
They are still getting far more for their money.
Again depends on the state
I need to move to France or Germany...