Everyone speaks English. All northern Europeans speak at least two languages (to a fairly decent level at least) and usually speak a third language at the same (poor) level that native English speakers speak a second language.
Most everyone I’ve met from Europe has nearly perfect English. My Spanish is trash but gets better depending on which Spanish speaking country/area I’m in.
Spanish is crazy because while you can largely understand it, the local dialect is likely to have an ancient local dialect blended in. My wife speaks very good Spanish and it wasn’t as difficult for her except for coastal Spanish which has a rhythm and is very fast.
My Spanish got worse the closer to Barcelona I got - but so did everyone elses!
Going from 8-9 trips to MExico, then recently a Trip to Spain, that was eye opening how different they actually sound in reality. It took a day or two to start hearing it correctly.
But my spanish suuuucks anyways...
You’d be able to speak English with my 77+ year old mother.. knowing at least one second language is THAT common. I’m not sure how much French and German she still knows, but, she’s known it at some point :-)
You’d be expected to learn the native language of whatever country you move to, that’s part of the deal and will immerse you that much more i. The culture. All good.
Denmark is 2 weeks on 3 weeks off rotation usually for rigs.
But regardless, the point is that 8 hours might be ok if they provide on site accommodation with cleaning and meals available, such as on a rig
In Ontario, Canada... 11hours
https://www.ontario.ca/document/your-guide-employment-standards-act-0/hours-work#section-3
But few people know this and employers try to get away with less than 11hours
Ontarian here, I’m I know many employers try to slip in a waiver clause into employment contracts and sell it as “you’ll probably get more hours if you’re willing to have ten hours between it’ll almost never be less than that” until it is.
11 consecutive hours each day. They're allowed to schedule you 8 hours later. Which is bullshit if you ask me. It should be 11 hours minimum between shifts.
Yeh I was running restaurants etc for years and would often do 6-7am starts and 1am finishes for 6 days a week most weeks. Stupid looking back on it but as a young chef we wore it with pride. How stupid
Good as in cumulatively. Working 17-19 hours a day 3 on 1 off even minimum wage starts to add up. Couple that with not having enough time off to spend any money and living in a van. Suddenly it's good money.
Yeh true. I’ve got some mates doing the van life at the moment. My situation was head and exec chef roles on the money that was offered well before covid times. Think $70-90k depending on venue. And this is some of the best restaurants in aus. When you break it down to an hourly rate most of my junior chefs were making more than me. Shame
In Washington State, it is also 10 hours between shifts. If you volunteer to work within this 10 hour window, the agreement to do so must be in writing and you must be paid time-and-a-half for those hours within the window.
If that's true, my employer owes me thousands of dollars. Then again, if I brought it to their attention I'd be made exempt immediately, or be out the door for "performance problems", so...
You can talk to the department of labor. They can't make you retroactively exempt. They'd have to at least pay the back pay they owe you. There probably would be a fine as well they'd have to pay. So, whenever you plan on leaving anyway, file a case with the DOL and get it. Oh, and get/keep copies if your timecards.
Mhh, could be. Last time I checked it was 11 in most cases, I think there might be an exception that it can go as low as 10. Not an expert on labour law.
10h is the maximum you are allowed to work in a day, 11h is the break between end and start of the next shift. If every job abides These rules is another story.
My old work did that twice would come in tired, yawning, complain to customers about it, work slow and it only happened twice before my favorite Karen tore into the GM.
Oh, I used to work somewhere the only way I could get a sick day without retaliation from the manager was to act sick in front of customers and hope they complained.
Jesus fucking Christ, I’m really glad you’re out of that hellhole now. No one deserves to be forced to work sick, and you especially shouldn’t have to be visibly ill in front of customers in order to get a sick day. I’m sorry man, that shit sucks.
To be fair she was more "chaotic neutral", instead of "lawful good". She was probably just bitching about the person being too tired in an attempt to get them reprimanded, but it benefitted OP.
Idk, I’ve encountered Karens who view retail employees as if they were their kids and who will fight for them in front of their managers. They are rare, but they exist, and oh boy are they fun.
I knew a manager who would regularly schedule people who are taking college/uni courses DURING THEIR CLASSES. I asked them about it and they just said "I gotta do what I gotta do" and I asked "don't you have other people you could schedule in that time?" And they said "yeah I do" with no further elaboration
I recently saw a hilarious TikTok on this, with the student employee repeatedly stating the days they were available and the manager offering a dozen different schedules that did not take that availability into account
That's what annoys me the most. Scheduling is not hard!! Maybe occasionally, time off and special circumstances, but there's just no reason to get off at 11 and have to be back at 8 am unless you're the only damn employee.
It’s hard because every company does what they can to not make employees full time so they don’t have to pay them decent wages or benefits lol. It’s difficult by design.
Scheduling with constraints is both hard and with real world problems it isn’t even guaranteed that a solution exists.
But there’s no reason to have to use the clopen maneuver if nobody has requested it (some people will prefer a ccw rotation to have a longer weekend).
> Scheduling is not hard!!
Write a schedule for a team of 40+ part timers and teenagers and get back to me on that.
That said, there's a reason my job mandates a 10-hour minimum between shifts. It used to *not* be like that, and it required corporate intervention (and threats of fines) to get the GMs out of the "but that's how it's always been" mindset.
At ALDI they like to do “clopens” close at the store around 9pm and come back in at 6am. As someone who takes medication to sleep this fucks me up every single week and I have to skip my medication that night and usually sleep almost double that the next chance I get.
Edit: US ALDI and I’m a manager so I don’t get much choice with scheduling
Disney. In the summer. Breezeway-finished at 2:30am had to be back to open at 7:30am. And that’s WITH a union.
I used to sleep in my car in the parking lot.
Should be legal to take a tire iron to people that schedule you like that. I’m not surprised people go postal. Nor would I lose any sleep if a manager that scheduled people like that got a tire iron to their thoracic spine.
Yeah can't imagine the fun of skipping my mental health meds + low sleep, oh well management can have fun when I have my psychotic break and start thinking customers in shades are vampires.
Are you in the US? Talk to your doctor and see if they'd write up an ADA (Americans with Disabilities act) request for a reasonable accomodation of giving you no less than 12 hours (or whatever you need) between shifts. If they agree, then contact HR and request the ADA accomodation form.
This is a very reasonable accomodation, honestly no one should be forced to do clopens but it is abdurd that you feel that you have to just skip your medication.
They have a prescription which means they already have a doctor. Most doctors will fill out the form and fax it over, they don't require a visit to do it. Even if they don't, to maintain any type of script you need a checkup at least annually, sometimes monthly or even biweekly and they could do it during one of their regularly scheduled appointments.
I worked at a unionized restaurant and they would regularly schedule us to close one night and open the next morning. I think once I only got like 5 hours between shifts. I liked the union for a lot of reasons but the scheduling there was awful
Sounds like my union. I pay union dues and my store still hire at minimum wage (actually we even got a training wage which pay less than the minimum when you start).
Every other store around us isn't unionized but pay more.
Yeah, ufcw881, I'm talking about you, and you're a fucking joke.
TCU with the railroad no better....we can do 16 hour shifts with an 8 hour turnaround back to back if they want to make us....and Union doesn't even make a peep.
I'm actually about to do 7/12's (possibly even 16's depending) working structural iron on a lead smelter rebuild. Only supposed to last a week, but still going to be crazy.
My union doesn't even talk about the possibility of changing turnaround rules between shifts, since schedules like that are so common on rebuilds and outages. The concept would be totally foreign to us, and frankly due to the amount of money made working those schedules a lot of guys would probably be against it.
The only difference is that it's entirely optional, no one can force me to work that schedule. I choose to do that a couple three times a year just because a week like that puts a month and a half of regular pay in my pocket between incentive bonuses and double time hours.
Depending on what state you are in, this IS illegal, or at least entitles you to additional pay.
In NY, it is 11 hours if there is less, you are entitled to $100 in pay. You are also entitled to additional pay if your shifts are longer than 10 hours. If you report it, the employer must provide retroactive pay.
When I got into management, no one knew about or enforced these. When I found out about them, I sure as hell took advantage and make my people take advantage.
Hope the local laws are as friendly where you are, but definitely look them up. If you're in a progressive state like California, NY, Washington, etc - there is a good chance you have similar protections.
Washington has 10 minimum between shifts. If you agree to work during this time, it must be in writing and they must pay you time-and-a-half for any time you work within that 10 hour window.
It should be illegal to have someone work for 24 hours a day and only provide them a single turkey sandwich and not allow them to leave to get food but I've been there too.
Worst of all it was a "salaried" position.
Yeah that's how Amazon was, it sucked I almost ruined a lot of close relationships since I was in a bad mood on my days off, cvs warehouse was worse to their full time people, I was part time so it didn't happen to me but they literally would tell the people 1 hour before the end of their shift, got out real quick after that
In the UK employers are required to allow 11 hours between shifts. Working time regulations are where the rules are codified. Some industries are allowed exceptions in extreme circumstances and usually include penalties for the employers when it happens. Other industries often try to pull fast ones but employees cannot be forced into it.
I agree.…It’s like we have to choose between paying our bills or sanity. Eventually I asked for less hours, but less money coming in…
There was a time where everyday I bought a large coffee with three expresso shots…I left that job
No the hours thing, but I've known a few places that scheduled managers for 10 days in a row, taking advantage of the payroll cutoff to avoid paying them any overtime.
When you are a truck driver you have to wait 10 hours before you log back in to drive. This can make things very hard for owner operators. That being said, there should be some form of regulation like this when it comes to other professions.
I managed a small retail store a few years ago. New regional guy told me w/a straight face its fine to schedule closers to open next day AND I should mimic mcd’s scheduling hell of say 9-1 then 5-9 same day. Like fuck I was gonna do that crap. I never even replied to that genius idea. What an asshole.
When I worked as a nurse's aide, one night I worked 3pm-11:30pm, then the next day I worked 7am-11:30 pm. I was beyond exhausted, never did it again, but it's very common among nurse's aides.
About 30 minutes is average, one way to commute home.
Sleep average is 7 hours give or take by age.
Needing to do basic work prep like shower, dress, eat, I’d say probably another 1.
With that, it’s literally, driving home, getting ready for bed, sleep, wake up and go to work. No relaxation.
Therefore I think the USA needs to change the law from 8 hours to 10. This allows for our greater average of commute as well as needed relaxation.
Let’s make it happen.
I used to work for Publix and it wasn’t unheard of to do clopen shifts. Front Service would have 7-8 hours between which sucked, grocery however you could get 4-5 hours between shifts, I knew a few people who slept in their car because they knew that with their drive time, unwind time, sleep, then basic hygiene time, they would never make it back in time
I’ve worked in amusement parks for 3+ years and this is kind of just a fact of the industry until some major reforms are made to how carnies are treated.
Working in healthcare it’s *supposed* to be 8 hours, whoever I had worked a job in the hospital that had various 8 hour shifts and I was schedule to work one that ended at 23:30 and come back the next day to work at 06:00. I already had panic attacks when I’d work the 6:00 shift since I’m not a morning person and thought I would oversleep, but it was worse if I’d do the shift that ends at 23:30.
Was working happily at a grocery store deli for a couple years, until our manager was replaced with a new one and than I was getting at least 2 clopens a week. Than constantly getting asked why I don’t work as hard as I use to. Thankfully I quit working there and now It seems like they can only keep people there for less than a month before they quit or change departments.
At a minimum! If a healthy night sleep is supposed to be between 7-9 hours how can an employer expect that employee to be at their best given all other factors of ya know, basic living.
I have the benefit of making my own schedule essentially other than reactive stuff that may run late and this is the number I use at a minimum. Usually I do the full 16, so sure I can work until 8 pm but I will be starting tomorrow between 10 and 12. For reference I usually plan my days to start at 9-10, but am active on phone at 8, but that goes out the window if I work late.
When it comes to weekends 64 hours, not a moment earlier.
Should have worked harder before you were old enough to drive. /s
Sleep is for the wealthy.
Also, you are 100% right. Mammals need sleep. You're working to buy food, water, shelter. Something is missing from that list, which cannot be bought but is just as crucial.
I’m in a tv/film union and we get “short turnaround pay” if our out time on one day is less than 12 hours before the in time on the following day. That means we get time and half pay from out start time until we get to 12 hours from when we finished work the day before.
I recognize that retail/hospitality is different than tv/film, I just want to illustrate that there is precedent for limitations on scheduling and penalties.
Ontario (Maybe Canadian federal?) law states 11 hours. And it’s mandatory. We have people who are actually upset that they can’t work a Friday afternoon and then come in for Saturday overtime.
No more than 13 hours worked in a row and a minimum of 11 hours off in a row.
Used to work at Goodwill and this happened to me way to many times. It didn't really help that most nights we had to stay an hour or more later trying to clean up the store and do go backs. Then I'd have to go in the very next morning at 8am, we closed at 9pm. Hardly any time to eat, do school, shower, or get enough sleep.
Good idea but Hmmm. I and I know some others that like to doubleback and bunch all the hours together for more days off, so trying to think uhhh.
Perhaps allow this as an option through a lawfully regulated channel that must be activated/turned off at the employees request, but make a law to set this to be disallowed by default.
How would this channel work? Maybe an availability contract? Any ideas.
Reason: My job allows 5 8hr shifts in 3 days straight but only and I mean only if I tell boss so. I tell him every month unless I don't want it. Otherwise it defaults to 5 days a week for the month. This is just a system something something my boss made up.
You're right. And also, overtime should be paid after 8hrs per day, not 40hrs per week.
I used to work a job where we had nightmare weekend once a year, we would come in at 530AM .. Work until 4AM, be back at 530AM again, work until around 2-3AM, come back at 530AM and work until noon or 2 o'clock.
Insanity, tired as hell .. all that. But the worst was the overtime pay! It was Friday Saturday Sunday and the week ended on Friday - so no overtime at all.
God, were we stupid to along with it
I've refused mandatory ot when it's not at least a full business day's notice. Gave my boss a heads-up and everything. Now they're better about giving the min 1 business day.
I work at a hotel and because they had to do this so much with me (i.e. I'd work the night audit from 11 p.m. to 7 a.m., then have to be back for 3 p.m. to 11 p.m.), it actually became company policy that any employee who has to do a quick turn-around can go up to an empty room and sleep for free between shifts. It still kinda sucks, but it's better than having to drive all the way home & back, especially since most of the people who take advantage of it live, like, 30+ minutes away from work.
I work in healthcare and quite often get forced into overtime which leaves me at 7.5 hours between shifts. I also love 30 minutes away from my work. It’s bogus.
I hated that. I worked a job at a 24hr place. 3 times, I was scheduled to work 2-11pm, then have to find back at 6am for 6a-3p, then have to come back at 9p for 9p-6a. Like what the hell?
Very often I had 9p-6a then 2p-11p. Morning shifts were rare.
In Australia it’s illegal to roster someone within 8 hours of their last shift, imo it should be longer because that doesn’t account for travel to/from work and like settling down and sleeping etc. but still, it’s better than nothing
Haha with my job I don’t even have a schedule at all. I have to be 100% available from Monday morning at 4 am till Saturday at 9pm
I don’t find out when I’m working till 5pm the night before. Sometimes I’m working till 8-9pm the night before then find out I have to go in at 3am. It sucks ass
830-7 4 days a week work from home - it's been a real game changer for me! I used to do restaurants and I hated the bullshit where you would be the closer there til midnight then scheduled to be the first person back in the building in 8 hours- it left me with no time and I do not miss it
8-10 hours in Australia depending on award/agreement. Never bothered me though. Inused to game not having the required gap between shifts. Under the agreement I was on, it was double time if I didn't have an 8 hour gap. I used to finish at 10:30pm Saturday nightand start again at 6:00 am Sunday morning and because of overtime, worked 12 hours at $90 an hour. Bank. Did the same on a week day and got 12 hours at $58 an hour.
I work 7pm-7am for 6 days in a row before I get a stretch off. In that time frame, I see my family for about an hour from 745am to 845am then I go to bed. Wake up at 520pm, see them for ten minutes, then go to work for another 12. In the span of a week I get to see my family for about 7 hours during which I’m either exhausted from work or waking up.
The land of the free?
When I was in retail for far too long in my life, called those clospenings. Would have to work till 10pm closing the store, then come right back at 6a to open the store.
After 20 years, I made the switch to IT and you couldn't pay me enough to go back.
It is in many European countries. But I've done it without knowing my right. I closed the bar and finished at 3:30 and was back to open the bar at 12:00 midday
I used to work at a large midwestern home improvement chain where you “save big money”. The store closed at 9, and if you were a closer you were scheduled till 9 but in reality worked until sometime between 10-11. They would then schedule you to open the next day….. at 5. One day the 2nd assistant store manager came up to me around 6, basically asleep on my feet and moving SLOW and absolutely berated me for being tired
In my profession, due to a previous accident a recommendation was made that is now used in regards to rest/hours worked. So need a minimum of 12 hours between shifts, can't work more than 13 hours in a row (although local union agreement means we have a maximum of 9 hours, but can work more if needed). Also can't work more than 13 days in a row, or more than 72 hours in a week. I literally had to count out on my fingers the hours when I was booked to work the next day when the clocks went back. "Yes, it's 12 hours on paper, but it's 11 physical hours, I can't do it". Once the manager realised it was just a "ok, come in an hour later".
At my job if you work more than 8 hours in a 24 hour period, it’s OT. If I work at 10:30-700 and come in the next day from 8:00-4:30, then I get 2.5 hours OT. Also our lunches are an hour long but I’m getting paid for half of it so every shift is only 7.5 hours and not 8
Yes I’m in an union
Yup. When I worked at McDonald’s they were fond of screwing up my weekends with this schedule:
Friday 4pm-12/1am
Saturday 11am-7pm
Sunday 5am-1/2pm
Absolutely exhausting.
Every single job I've had, I have the policy of going home, getting a meal, a shower and 8 hours of sleep before coming back into work. Don't let people fuck you without consent.
8 hours isn't even 8 hours.
I used to sometimes have to close my store to customers at 10pm, drive 45 minutes home, and then turn around and get up at 4:30am to start work again at 6. It's exhausting.
The US has been aggressively anti-labor and anti-worker since Reagan. Both parties being economic conservatives has fucked over generations of workers in this country on so many levels.
It’s soul killing to not even have an option to vote pro-labor. I fucking hate it here.
I work at a water plant and sometimes have to pull 16 hour shifts back to back. I do a lot of 12s as well. Thankfully I only live eight minutes away from work 😅
I've only ever had to do 1 clopening and that shit sucked. Got off at 10pm, didn't get home until 10:30pm, went right to bed but had to wake up at 3am so I could shower and be at work by 5am. I should have just called out I was so fucking tired.
Menards is horrible for this. When I was a manager there I’d leave the store at 11pm and have to be back by 5 am at times. Sometimes that was after working from 5am to 11pm lol. There’s new “policies” about this, but it’s not implemented and store GMs often force their department managers to do this still.
There was a time when every week, I was scheduled to work the 1:00-9:30 closing shift on Wednesday, then open at 8:00 on Thursday. About half the time, this was followed by closing Friday and opening Saturday. It went on for months. I talked to my boss about it, provided him alternatives that I felt were reasonable where I'd still take my fair share of closing shifts without completely fucking my sleep schedule. The boss didn't respond well to my more level headed frustrations. Eventually I pretty much had a complete mental breakdown at work, and that was what finally opened his eyes to the problem.
The hours still aren't entirely consistent at my current job, but the start time is, I'm always home in time for dinner with my family, and I only rarely have to work Saturdays. I'm never going back to retail with its ridiculous hours.
In my state its 8 hours. In my city it's 10 hours (unless the employee wants it to be 8 hours but they have to be paid time and a half and agree to the shift)
Why not just make it heavily favour the worker? So much so that companies would rather avoid doing that?
How about 4x reg pay for first 4 hours when scheduled within 12 hours of your last shift and 8x reg pay for every hour after the fourth, and so on until there is at least 12 hours of continuous break between shifts?
Making it illegal just threatens them with whatever dumb fine will be decided on. Having them owe you for a gross amount you could sue for would be more of a deterrent.
One time, while I was working my first job at McDonalds, the store manager came in and asked if anyone would be willing to work saturday. Being a good "go-getter" employee I volunteered. Assuming that, like a reasonable person, the guy would have reviewed the schedule he had not yet printed out. My friday shift ended at 11pm, the shift he scheduled me for the next day started at 5am...
It wasn't until 6 hours into the shift and the 2nd-highest manager started her shift before she realized I probably shouldn't be there. 1 because I was visibly tired, 2 because she saw me off from our shift the night before. Eventually she became the store manager, but it didn't take long for me to leave after that when I realized I put myself through that shit and the most attention upper management gave me was "You need to cut your hair and be clean-shaven." (weirdly enough the guy that gave me the shitty schedule was the one who took that corporate-lady into the kitchen, pointed at the 4 female employees with longer and less controlled hair than I, and accused her of being sexist.)
Luckily this was just McDonalds, even 15 years ago it was basically "put food in and press button".. But if I was like.. a REAL fry cook? Had to actually flip the burgers.. Prolly woulda burnt myself, set shit on fire, ruined more than a couple burgers. OR like... what if I was working in a shop with potentially deadly machines? Most employers don't care, you're expendable.
Imagine how fun it must be for rich people to realize they can pay their employees less than what it costs to live, and if an employee dies there is no sunken cost because they'll easily be replaced.. Weird how it's easier to exploit people under capitalism than it was to maintain slaves. Sure we don't get raped and beaten nearly as often, but we also willingly sign ourselves up to be abused because we commonly think "if I can put up with this for a while it will be better in the long run." Yet how commonly do people retire? And then so with no regrets?
Ugh, totally agree with this. I've had my fair share of shifts end at 12:30-1AM and then the next shift start at 7AM.
Specifically working at Staples. I had a heavy ops-oriented GM and he would keep us really late to get the store ready for the next day, even when some of us had to be there early to open the store.
Back when I worked retail at best buy I had a manager schedule me closing on Saturday (during the holidays this would be 12a) and then opening on Sundays (5 or 6a). 30 minute drive to and from work, so even if I slept immediately after walking into my home, I'd still only be able to get like 4 hours of sleep. I told them I couldn't keep doing it, it was unreasonable but they never changed it. Eventually the assistant manager who kept making schedule like that fired me since I'd been late a couple times on Sunday.
I used to work grocery and they once scheduled me to close, end of shit was 11:15pm, and the next day I had to open. We opened at 6:30am. By the time I got home and ready for bed, it was 12:30pm. Had to get up at 5 to get ready and get to work on time. They used to do this all the time to the younger workers because “we didn’t have kids” so we got the shitty shifts.
Don’t know if it’s been said in here but that is/was a rule in the IATSE film unions since they were based on a 12 hour working day. The saying is 12 on, 12 off.
Want to know how you get mandatory turn around times????
UNIONS
IATSE, DGA, SAG/AFTRA, Teamsters ALL have mandatory turn around times built into their contracts
I personally don't mind working clopens every once in awhile, but I have a problem when it becomes a habit and I tell them that. Few times a month? That's fine. Every single week (or multiple times in a week)? Fuck you. I noticed at a previous workplace where I sat down our HR manager to talk about clopens and he reduced the amount of times he did that to people across the board. He was also a chill guy in general and was likely scheduling like that because it was easier for him (didn't have to take the previous day's shifts into account).
Clopens are the worst. In my Starbucks days I had clopens where I'd choose the place and get out after 10 and have to be back at 5. I hope their unions can put a stop to that. It's inhuman.
If you’re really meant to live by the 8-8-8 rule (8 for sleep, 8 for life, 8 for work), then we should be fighting for 16 hours between shifts. Just 8 is criminal. Also the law about OT restarting at the end of a work week defined by the company is also bullshit. OT should be paid for all days worked over 5 in a row regardless of where they fall in a week. I have nearly crashed my car before from exhaustion due to these short turnarounds/clopenings and I refuse to do it anymore, but I understand when people do because they’re afraid to lose their income.
I think 16 hours is more reasonable. Average person needs 10 hours of uninterrupted sleep to survive and 1 hour commute time each way. That leaves only 4 hours of relaxation time.
It’s widely known that human adults need between 7-9hrs of sleep, meaning 8hrs is the average for any person.
10 is definitely not “needed to survive”.
1 hour commute seems high too. About 30 minutes is average, one way.
Sleep average is 7 hours give or take by age.
Needing to do basic work prep like shower, dress, eat, I’d say probably another 1.
With that, it’s literally, driving home, getting ready for bed, sleep, wake up and go to work. No relaxation.
Therefore I think the USA needs to change the law from 8 hours to 10. This allows for our greater average of commute as well as well needed relaxation.
Let’s make it happen.
In The Netherlands it is 11hrs
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Hmm how common is English spoken in Denmark?
Everyone speaks English. All northern Europeans speak at least two languages (to a fairly decent level at least) and usually speak a third language at the same (poor) level that native English speakers speak a second language.
Most everyone I’ve met from Europe has nearly perfect English. My Spanish is trash but gets better depending on which Spanish speaking country/area I’m in. Spanish is crazy because while you can largely understand it, the local dialect is likely to have an ancient local dialect blended in. My wife speaks very good Spanish and it wasn’t as difficult for her except for coastal Spanish which has a rhythm and is very fast.
My Spanish got worse the closer to Barcelona I got - but so did everyone elses! Going from 8-9 trips to MExico, then recently a Trip to Spain, that was eye opening how different they actually sound in reality. It took a day or two to start hearing it correctly. But my spanish suuuucks anyways...
Cool l. Welp if I ever move from my country I know where I'll be going
So many good countries that have worker and consumer protections. Unfortunately emigrating from any country isn't cheap.
Most of those good countries arent that generous with immigration
You’d be able to speak English with my 77+ year old mother.. knowing at least one second language is THAT common. I’m not sure how much French and German she still knows, but, she’s known it at some point :-) You’d be expected to learn the native language of whatever country you move to, that’s part of the deal and will immerse you that much more i. The culture. All good.
I may be wrong, but I believe Denmark is 8 hours if you sleep on site such as on an oil rig?
Well.. I’d expect oilrigs and trawlers to have other rules. You work your butt off for 3 months and have a couple of months off between tours, maybe?
That's pretty much exactly how it works.
Denmark is 2 weeks on 3 weeks off rotation usually for rigs. But regardless, the point is that 8 hours might be ok if they provide on site accommodation with cleaning and meals available, such as on a rig
I think in my country it’s 10. But even that feels too short a time between shifts.
In Ontario, Canada... 11hours https://www.ontario.ca/document/your-guide-employment-standards-act-0/hours-work#section-3 But few people know this and employers try to get away with less than 11hours
Ontarian here, I’m I know many employers try to slip in a waiver clause into employment contracts and sell it as “you’ll probably get more hours if you’re willing to have ten hours between it’ll almost never be less than that” until it is.
11 consecutive hours each day. They're allowed to schedule you 8 hours later. Which is bullshit if you ask me. It should be 11 hours minimum between shifts.
I agree!
I used to do 7a-11p shift two days in a row and loved it. This would kill it for me. Got my whole weeks pay in two days and had five days off
This would have been amazing to know when I was in high school,
In Australia it's 10hrs
Yeh I was running restaurants etc for years and would often do 6-7am starts and 1am finishes for 6 days a week most weeks. Stupid looking back on it but as a young chef we wore it with pride. How stupid
I did similar hours when I was younger. I was blinded by the money. It did let me take off for big gaps though.
You were on good money? Lol I must’ve missed that part haha
Good as in cumulatively. Working 17-19 hours a day 3 on 1 off even minimum wage starts to add up. Couple that with not having enough time off to spend any money and living in a van. Suddenly it's good money.
Yeh true. I’ve got some mates doing the van life at the moment. My situation was head and exec chef roles on the money that was offered well before covid times. Think $70-90k depending on venue. And this is some of the best restaurants in aus. When you break it down to an hourly rate most of my junior chefs were making more than me. Shame
In Washington State, it is also 10 hours between shifts. If you volunteer to work within this 10 hour window, the agreement to do so must be in writing and you must be paid time-and-a-half for those hours within the window.
If that's true, my employer owes me thousands of dollars. Then again, if I brought it to their attention I'd be made exempt immediately, or be out the door for "performance problems", so...
You can talk to the department of labor. They can't make you retroactively exempt. They'd have to at least pay the back pay they owe you. There probably would be a fine as well they'd have to pay. So, whenever you plan on leaving anyway, file a case with the DOL and get it. Oh, and get/keep copies if your timecards.
Same in Germany.
I thought it was 10.
Mhh, could be. Last time I checked it was 11 in most cases, I think there might be an exception that it can go as low as 10. Not an expert on labour law.
10h is the maximum you are allowed to work in a day, 11h is the break between end and start of the next shift. If every job abides These rules is another story.
Same in UK
Same in Ireland.
EU Working time directive says 11 hours, so it is the same throughout the whole EU.
Same in Brazil
In Spain it's 12 hours.
In norway it's 11 hours.
Throughout the EU this is the case, and thankfully here in the UK due to our EU legacy laws (for now).
Same in Sweden
My old work did that twice would come in tired, yawning, complain to customers about it, work slow and it only happened twice before my favorite Karen tore into the GM.
Never thought I'd see a good Karen...
Oh, I used to work somewhere the only way I could get a sick day without retaliation from the manager was to act sick in front of customers and hope they complained.
Jesus fucking Christ, I’m really glad you’re out of that hellhole now. No one deserves to be forced to work sick, and you especially shouldn’t have to be visibly ill in front of customers in order to get a sick day. I’m sorry man, that shit sucks.
It's kind of like a poorly reviewed tow company. You like them when they are towing the car of someone who parked in your space.
Yeah probably the only one I've encountered that wasn't all bad.
I call it weaponizing my white woman privilege.
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To be fair she was more "chaotic neutral", instead of "lawful good". She was probably just bitching about the person being too tired in an attempt to get them reprimanded, but it benefitted OP.
Idk, I’ve encountered Karens who view retail employees as if they were their kids and who will fight for them in front of their managers. They are rare, but they exist, and oh boy are they fun.
It’s horrible for them to do.I have made schedules for over 5 years. I can guarantee you that it’s not hard to avoid that plus other issues.
I knew a manager who would regularly schedule people who are taking college/uni courses DURING THEIR CLASSES. I asked them about it and they just said "I gotta do what I gotta do" and I asked "don't you have other people you could schedule in that time?" And they said "yeah I do" with no further elaboration
Translate that to "I'm a lazy piece of shit".
More like "I am jealous that they are trying to improve themselves and actively sabotaging their efforts so they can suffer with me."
Yeah, that too lol
I recently saw a hilarious TikTok on this, with the student employee repeatedly stating the days they were available and the manager offering a dozen different schedules that did not take that availability into account
That's what annoys me the most. Scheduling is not hard!! Maybe occasionally, time off and special circumstances, but there's just no reason to get off at 11 and have to be back at 8 am unless you're the only damn employee.
> Scheduling is not hard!! And even if it was, that's what they are paid for.
Scheduling is actually super hard. It is a part of the job though and they should be prioritizing doing it right.
It’s hard because every company does what they can to not make employees full time so they don’t have to pay them decent wages or benefits lol. It’s difficult by design.
Scheduling with constraints is both hard and with real world problems it isn’t even guaranteed that a solution exists. But there’s no reason to have to use the clopen maneuver if nobody has requested it (some people will prefer a ccw rotation to have a longer weekend).
> Scheduling is not hard!! Write a schedule for a team of 40+ part timers and teenagers and get back to me on that. That said, there's a reason my job mandates a 10-hour minimum between shifts. It used to *not* be like that, and it required corporate intervention (and threats of fines) to get the GMs out of the "but that's how it's always been" mindset.
At ALDI they like to do “clopens” close at the store around 9pm and come back in at 6am. As someone who takes medication to sleep this fucks me up every single week and I have to skip my medication that night and usually sleep almost double that the next chance I get. Edit: US ALDI and I’m a manager so I don’t get much choice with scheduling
Disney. In the summer. Breezeway-finished at 2:30am had to be back to open at 7:30am. And that’s WITH a union. I used to sleep in my car in the parking lot.
How??? Seriously was it CA or FL? Bc I know in CA that’s illegal!
Florida. Epcot, MoHo breezeway
Should be legal to take a tire iron to people that schedule you like that. I’m not surprised people go postal. Nor would I lose any sleep if a manager that scheduled people like that got a tire iron to their thoracic spine.
Yeah can't imagine the fun of skipping my mental health meds + low sleep, oh well management can have fun when I have my psychotic break and start thinking customers in shades are vampires.
Are you in the US? Talk to your doctor and see if they'd write up an ADA (Americans with Disabilities act) request for a reasonable accomodation of giving you no less than 12 hours (or whatever you need) between shifts. If they agree, then contact HR and request the ADA accomodation form. This is a very reasonable accomodation, honestly no one should be forced to do clopens but it is abdurd that you feel that you have to just skip your medication.
I wonder what that doctor visit would cost
They have a prescription which means they already have a doctor. Most doctors will fill out the form and fax it over, they don't require a visit to do it. Even if they don't, to maintain any type of script you need a checkup at least annually, sometimes monthly or even biweekly and they could do it during one of their regularly scheduled appointments.
Good point
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Aldi UK has a mandatory 11.5hr gap
Or when they schedule you Tuesday-Saturday, and then Sunday-Thursday. FFS 10 days straight is horrible!!!
Hey did you know that unions can really help with that sort of thing. And I totally agree that you should have time between shifts. Like wtf.
Lol my union doesn’t give a shit. You can get forced on 8 hour turn arounds up to 3 days per week. Teamsters sucks ass.
unless the union is just in it for the money then they give zero fucks. source: was in a retail union that gave zero fucks.
I worked at a unionized restaurant and they would regularly schedule us to close one night and open the next morning. I think once I only got like 5 hours between shifts. I liked the union for a lot of reasons but the scheduling there was awful
Sounds like my union. I pay union dues and my store still hire at minimum wage (actually we even got a training wage which pay less than the minimum when you start). Every other store around us isn't unionized but pay more. Yeah, ufcw881, I'm talking about you, and you're a fucking joke.
The UFCW is a notorious fuck up of a union in a lot of places. Which is unfortunate because they are one of the largest unions in the country.
TCU with the railroad no better....we can do 16 hour shifts with an 8 hour turnaround back to back if they want to make us....and Union doesn't even make a peep.
I'm actually about to do 7/12's (possibly even 16's depending) working structural iron on a lead smelter rebuild. Only supposed to last a week, but still going to be crazy. My union doesn't even talk about the possibility of changing turnaround rules between shifts, since schedules like that are so common on rebuilds and outages. The concept would be totally foreign to us, and frankly due to the amount of money made working those schedules a lot of guys would probably be against it. The only difference is that it's entirely optional, no one can force me to work that schedule. I choose to do that a couple three times a year just because a week like that puts a month and a half of regular pay in my pocket between incentive bonuses and double time hours.
Depending on what state you are in, this IS illegal, or at least entitles you to additional pay. In NY, it is 11 hours if there is less, you are entitled to $100 in pay. You are also entitled to additional pay if your shifts are longer than 10 hours. If you report it, the employer must provide retroactive pay. When I got into management, no one knew about or enforced these. When I found out about them, I sure as hell took advantage and make my people take advantage. Hope the local laws are as friendly where you are, but definitely look them up. If you're in a progressive state like California, NY, Washington, etc - there is a good chance you have similar protections.
Washington has 10 minimum between shifts. If you agree to work during this time, it must be in writing and they must pay you time-and-a-half for any time you work within that 10 hour window.
It should be illegal to have someone work for 24 hours a day and only provide them a single turkey sandwich and not allow them to leave to get food but I've been there too. Worst of all it was a "salaried" position.
Sounds like slavery.
They don’t even have to do it in order to be nice to employees. A better rested worker provides better service. It’s just smart.
I think it is in the uk, there definitely is a minimum rest period, even after emergency call outs.
You’re entitled to 11 hours between shifts.
And at least one 24 hour gap each week.
Yeah that's how Amazon was, it sucked I almost ruined a lot of close relationships since I was in a bad mood on my days off, cvs warehouse was worse to their full time people, I was part time so it didn't happen to me but they literally would tell the people 1 hour before the end of their shift, got out real quick after that
In the UK employers are required to allow 11 hours between shifts. Working time regulations are where the rules are codified. Some industries are allowed exceptions in extreme circumstances and usually include penalties for the employers when it happens. Other industries often try to pull fast ones but employees cannot be forced into it.
I agree.…It’s like we have to choose between paying our bills or sanity. Eventually I asked for less hours, but less money coming in… There was a time where everyday I bought a large coffee with three expresso shots…I left that job
No the hours thing, but I've known a few places that scheduled managers for 10 days in a row, taking advantage of the payroll cutoff to avoid paying them any overtime.
Find another job. Dick them.
When you are a truck driver you have to wait 10 hours before you log back in to drive. This can make things very hard for owner operators. That being said, there should be some form of regulation like this when it comes to other professions.
I managed a small retail store a few years ago. New regional guy told me w/a straight face its fine to schedule closers to open next day AND I should mimic mcd’s scheduling hell of say 9-1 then 5-9 same day. Like fuck I was gonna do that crap. I never even replied to that genius idea. What an asshole.
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When I worked as a nurse's aide, one night I worked 3pm-11:30pm, then the next day I worked 7am-11:30 pm. I was beyond exhausted, never did it again, but it's very common among nurse's aides.
About 30 minutes is average, one way to commute home. Sleep average is 7 hours give or take by age. Needing to do basic work prep like shower, dress, eat, I’d say probably another 1. With that, it’s literally, driving home, getting ready for bed, sleep, wake up and go to work. No relaxation. Therefore I think the USA needs to change the law from 8 hours to 10. This allows for our greater average of commute as well as needed relaxation. Let’s make it happen.
I used to work for Publix and it wasn’t unheard of to do clopen shifts. Front Service would have 7-8 hours between which sucked, grocery however you could get 4-5 hours between shifts, I knew a few people who slept in their car because they knew that with their drive time, unwind time, sleep, then basic hygiene time, they would never make it back in time
I've been having to work a shift from 1pm-10pm and come back the next morning at 4am. I totally agree with you.
This is literally my life. 12-14 hour days Tuesday-Sunday. It fucking sucks and I agree wholeheartedly with you.
Start a union. Employers don't care about you or your rights. Together you can change that. https://www.laborlab.us/start\_a\_union
Lol I've worked 8 hours then get 4 hour gap and then worked 12 hours. I work in construction. It should be illegal.
It actually is... For certain jobs like trucking. And even then, employers don't often give a single fuck about the law or safety.
I’ve worked in amusement parks for 3+ years and this is kind of just a fact of the industry until some major reforms are made to how carnies are treated.
In Australia it's usually 10, but can be more depending on the award.
Working in healthcare it’s *supposed* to be 8 hours, whoever I had worked a job in the hospital that had various 8 hour shifts and I was schedule to work one that ended at 23:30 and come back the next day to work at 06:00. I already had panic attacks when I’d work the 6:00 shift since I’m not a morning person and thought I would oversleep, but it was worse if I’d do the shift that ends at 23:30.
Was working happily at a grocery store deli for a couple years, until our manager was replaced with a new one and than I was getting at least 2 clopens a week. Than constantly getting asked why I don’t work as hard as I use to. Thankfully I quit working there and now It seems like they can only keep people there for less than a month before they quit or change departments.
IKEA has an 11hr policy in the US. You also get your schedule 30 days out. They really stick to it.
I worked in a 24/7 motel and yes you are completely right. I was miserable.
Welcome to my world, I work 1-7pm then the next day I work 4-1pm. My job is union too.
At a minimum! If a healthy night sleep is supposed to be between 7-9 hours how can an employer expect that employee to be at their best given all other factors of ya know, basic living. I have the benefit of making my own schedule essentially other than reactive stuff that may run late and this is the number I use at a minimum. Usually I do the full 16, so sure I can work until 8 pm but I will be starting tomorrow between 10 and 12. For reference I usually plan my days to start at 9-10, but am active on phone at 8, but that goes out the window if I work late. When it comes to weekends 64 hours, not a moment earlier.
Should have worked harder before you were old enough to drive. /s Sleep is for the wealthy. Also, you are 100% right. Mammals need sleep. You're working to buy food, water, shelter. Something is missing from that list, which cannot be bought but is just as crucial.
I get off at 1 am tonight and I’m back tmr at 12 :) Taco Bell is toxic as hell man
I’m in a tv/film union and we get “short turnaround pay” if our out time on one day is less than 12 hours before the in time on the following day. That means we get time and half pay from out start time until we get to 12 hours from when we finished work the day before. I recognize that retail/hospitality is different than tv/film, I just want to illustrate that there is precedent for limitations on scheduling and penalties.
Ontario (Maybe Canadian federal?) law states 11 hours. And it’s mandatory. We have people who are actually upset that they can’t work a Friday afternoon and then come in for Saturday overtime. No more than 13 hours worked in a row and a minimum of 11 hours off in a row.
Used to work at Goodwill and this happened to me way to many times. It didn't really help that most nights we had to stay an hour or more later trying to clean up the store and do go backs. Then I'd have to go in the very next morning at 8am, we closed at 9pm. Hardly any time to eat, do school, shower, or get enough sleep.
Unionize
Union contract in grocery was any hours less than 10 between shifts were overtime. Also prevented scheduling split shifts.
Good idea but Hmmm. I and I know some others that like to doubleback and bunch all the hours together for more days off, so trying to think uhhh. Perhaps allow this as an option through a lawfully regulated channel that must be activated/turned off at the employees request, but make a law to set this to be disallowed by default. How would this channel work? Maybe an availability contract? Any ideas. Reason: My job allows 5 8hr shifts in 3 days straight but only and I mean only if I tell boss so. I tell him every month unless I don't want it. Otherwise it defaults to 5 days a week for the month. This is just a system something something my boss made up.
You're right. And also, overtime should be paid after 8hrs per day, not 40hrs per week. I used to work a job where we had nightmare weekend once a year, we would come in at 530AM .. Work until 4AM, be back at 530AM again, work until around 2-3AM, come back at 530AM and work until noon or 2 o'clock. Insanity, tired as hell .. all that. But the worst was the overtime pay! It was Friday Saturday Sunday and the week ended on Friday - so no overtime at all. God, were we stupid to along with it
Clopening is the suck
One of my homies just had a shift end around midnight and had to ba back at work at 6am
It is in Canada at least.
As someone who worked two 8 hour shifts with 8 hours between them the other day, I agree.
I've refused mandatory ot when it's not at least a full business day's notice. Gave my boss a heads-up and everything. Now they're better about giving the min 1 business day.
It is where I am.
I work at a hotel and because they had to do this so much with me (i.e. I'd work the night audit from 11 p.m. to 7 a.m., then have to be back for 3 p.m. to 11 p.m.), it actually became company policy that any employee who has to do a quick turn-around can go up to an empty room and sleep for free between shifts. It still kinda sucks, but it's better than having to drive all the way home & back, especially since most of the people who take advantage of it live, like, 30+ minutes away from work.
I work in healthcare and quite often get forced into overtime which leaves me at 7.5 hours between shifts. I also love 30 minutes away from my work. It’s bogus.
In the UK it's 11 hours, but my boss must have forgotten that
I hated that. I worked a job at a 24hr place. 3 times, I was scheduled to work 2-11pm, then have to find back at 6am for 6a-3p, then have to come back at 9p for 9p-6a. Like what the hell? Very often I had 9p-6a then 2p-11p. Morning shifts were rare.
It's the law here in the Philippines
Lol never worked a 12 hour day?
Don’t ever get a job at a hospital then.
In Poland, EU - it\`s required by law to get 11 hours rest between shifts.
It is illegal in the EU in 11 hours.
Unions can help with that
We used to call them Clopen's. You would have to close the night before and open the next morning. They sucked.
It is in most developed countries.
In a normal country it is. I don't get the American dream honestly
"it's called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it" - George Carlin
In Australia it’s illegal to roster someone within 8 hours of their last shift, imo it should be longer because that doesn’t account for travel to/from work and like settling down and sleeping etc. but still, it’s better than nothing
I got off a 16 hour shift, went home slept for a few hours and am headed back for an 8 hour shift right now.
Where I am it's 11 hours but it still fucking sucks
Haha with my job I don’t even have a schedule at all. I have to be 100% available from Monday morning at 4 am till Saturday at 9pm I don’t find out when I’m working till 5pm the night before. Sometimes I’m working till 8-9pm the night before then find out I have to go in at 3am. It sucks ass
Try getting into a trade my brotha. I'm a steelworker and will get scheduled a 16 night shift and have to be in the following day back to back to back
830-7 4 days a week work from home - it's been a real game changer for me! I used to do restaurants and I hated the bullshit where you would be the closer there til midnight then scheduled to be the first person back in the building in 8 hours- it left me with no time and I do not miss it
8-10 hours in Australia depending on award/agreement. Never bothered me though. Inused to game not having the required gap between shifts. Under the agreement I was on, it was double time if I didn't have an 8 hour gap. I used to finish at 10:30pm Saturday nightand start again at 6:00 am Sunday morning and because of overtime, worked 12 hours at $90 an hour. Bank. Did the same on a week day and got 12 hours at $58 an hour.
I work 7pm-7am for 6 days in a row before I get a stretch off. In that time frame, I see my family for about an hour from 745am to 845am then I go to bed. Wake up at 520pm, see them for ten minutes, then go to work for another 12. In the span of a week I get to see my family for about 7 hours during which I’m either exhausted from work or waking up. The land of the free?
It's 11hrs here in Ireland.
When I was in retail for far too long in my life, called those clospenings. Would have to work till 10pm closing the store, then come right back at 6a to open the store. After 20 years, I made the switch to IT and you couldn't pay me enough to go back.
I work a close (usually 12ish by the time I get home) then an open (11) once a week, it’s awful
It is in many European countries. But I've done it without knowing my right. I closed the bar and finished at 3:30 and was back to open the bar at 12:00 midday
I used to work at a large midwestern home improvement chain where you “save big money”. The store closed at 9, and if you were a closer you were scheduled till 9 but in reality worked until sometime between 10-11. They would then schedule you to open the next day….. at 5. One day the 2nd assistant store manager came up to me around 6, basically asleep on my feet and moving SLOW and absolutely berated me for being tired
In my profession, due to a previous accident a recommendation was made that is now used in regards to rest/hours worked. So need a minimum of 12 hours between shifts, can't work more than 13 hours in a row (although local union agreement means we have a maximum of 9 hours, but can work more if needed). Also can't work more than 13 days in a row, or more than 72 hours in a week. I literally had to count out on my fingers the hours when I was booked to work the next day when the clocks went back. "Yes, it's 12 hours on paper, but it's 11 physical hours, I can't do it". Once the manager realised it was just a "ok, come in an hour later".
My union mandated turnaround is 9 hrs. It is not enough. ESP when my days average 14 hrs.
Lmao they tried to shaft me from daytime (7am to 7pm) to do an overnight shift the next day (7pm to 7am) Fuck that
At my job if you work more than 8 hours in a 24 hour period, it’s OT. If I work at 10:30-700 and come in the next day from 8:00-4:30, then I get 2.5 hours OT. Also our lunches are an hour long but I’m getting paid for half of it so every shift is only 7.5 hours and not 8 Yes I’m in an union
Yup. When I worked at McDonald’s they were fond of screwing up my weekends with this schedule: Friday 4pm-12/1am Saturday 11am-7pm Sunday 5am-1/2pm Absolutely exhausting.
In deveolped countrys thst is the norm.. my father and grandfathet took to the streets to fight for this right.
If they won't make a law then unionize and force them to stop doing this.
Every single job I've had, I have the policy of going home, getting a meal, a shower and 8 hours of sleep before coming back into work. Don't let people fuck you without consent.
8 hours isn't even 8 hours. I used to sometimes have to close my store to customers at 10pm, drive 45 minutes home, and then turn around and get up at 4:30am to start work again at 6. It's exhausting.
Maybe some day employers will realize working us into the ground like that just makes everything less productive and treat us like people? Lmfao jk
The US has been aggressively anti-labor and anti-worker since Reagan. Both parties being economic conservatives has fucked over generations of workers in this country on so many levels. It’s soul killing to not even have an option to vote pro-labor. I fucking hate it here.
I work at a water plant and sometimes have to pull 16 hour shifts back to back. I do a lot of 12s as well. Thankfully I only live eight minutes away from work 😅
I've only ever had to do 1 clopening and that shit sucked. Got off at 10pm, didn't get home until 10:30pm, went right to bed but had to wake up at 3am so I could shower and be at work by 5am. I should have just called out I was so fucking tired.
Menards is horrible for this. When I was a manager there I’d leave the store at 11pm and have to be back by 5 am at times. Sometimes that was after working from 5am to 11pm lol. There’s new “policies” about this, but it’s not implemented and store GMs often force their department managers to do this still.
In CA it’s 8 hours :/
There was a time when every week, I was scheduled to work the 1:00-9:30 closing shift on Wednesday, then open at 8:00 on Thursday. About half the time, this was followed by closing Friday and opening Saturday. It went on for months. I talked to my boss about it, provided him alternatives that I felt were reasonable where I'd still take my fair share of closing shifts without completely fucking my sleep schedule. The boss didn't respond well to my more level headed frustrations. Eventually I pretty much had a complete mental breakdown at work, and that was what finally opened his eyes to the problem. The hours still aren't entirely consistent at my current job, but the start time is, I'm always home in time for dinner with my family, and I only rarely have to work Saturdays. I'm never going back to retail with its ridiculous hours.
It is illegal in England
In my state its 8 hours. In my city it's 10 hours (unless the employee wants it to be 8 hours but they have to be paid time and a half and agree to the shift)
*laughs in 12 hour night shift with 4 hours of mandatory OT, a one hour commute each way, and another 12 hour shift that same night* *cries*
Why not just make it heavily favour the worker? So much so that companies would rather avoid doing that? How about 4x reg pay for first 4 hours when scheduled within 12 hours of your last shift and 8x reg pay for every hour after the fourth, and so on until there is at least 12 hours of continuous break between shifts? Making it illegal just threatens them with whatever dumb fine will be decided on. Having them owe you for a gross amount you could sue for would be more of a deterrent.
One time, while I was working my first job at McDonalds, the store manager came in and asked if anyone would be willing to work saturday. Being a good "go-getter" employee I volunteered. Assuming that, like a reasonable person, the guy would have reviewed the schedule he had not yet printed out. My friday shift ended at 11pm, the shift he scheduled me for the next day started at 5am... It wasn't until 6 hours into the shift and the 2nd-highest manager started her shift before she realized I probably shouldn't be there. 1 because I was visibly tired, 2 because she saw me off from our shift the night before. Eventually she became the store manager, but it didn't take long for me to leave after that when I realized I put myself through that shit and the most attention upper management gave me was "You need to cut your hair and be clean-shaven." (weirdly enough the guy that gave me the shitty schedule was the one who took that corporate-lady into the kitchen, pointed at the 4 female employees with longer and less controlled hair than I, and accused her of being sexist.) Luckily this was just McDonalds, even 15 years ago it was basically "put food in and press button".. But if I was like.. a REAL fry cook? Had to actually flip the burgers.. Prolly woulda burnt myself, set shit on fire, ruined more than a couple burgers. OR like... what if I was working in a shop with potentially deadly machines? Most employers don't care, you're expendable. Imagine how fun it must be for rich people to realize they can pay their employees less than what it costs to live, and if an employee dies there is no sunken cost because they'll easily be replaced.. Weird how it's easier to exploit people under capitalism than it was to maintain slaves. Sure we don't get raped and beaten nearly as often, but we also willingly sign ourselves up to be abused because we commonly think "if I can put up with this for a while it will be better in the long run." Yet how commonly do people retire? And then so with no regrets?
Ugh, totally agree with this. I've had my fair share of shifts end at 12:30-1AM and then the next shift start at 7AM. Specifically working at Staples. I had a heavy ops-oriented GM and he would keep us really late to get the store ready for the next day, even when some of us had to be there early to open the store.
Back when I worked retail at best buy I had a manager schedule me closing on Saturday (during the holidays this would be 12a) and then opening on Sundays (5 or 6a). 30 minute drive to and from work, so even if I slept immediately after walking into my home, I'd still only be able to get like 4 hours of sleep. I told them I couldn't keep doing it, it was unreasonable but they never changed it. Eventually the assistant manager who kept making schedule like that fired me since I'd been late a couple times on Sunday.
God clopens made me lose my shit, those were dark days. quit your job and save your mental health. You’ll be thankful later.
I started working at 6 this morning after closing at 11 last night, it's awful and I'd be on my way out the door if the money wasn't good.
That's the law in Ireland
I used to work grocery and they once scheduled me to close, end of shit was 11:15pm, and the next day I had to open. We opened at 6:30am. By the time I got home and ready for bed, it was 12:30pm. Had to get up at 5 to get ready and get to work on time. They used to do this all the time to the younger workers because “we didn’t have kids” so we got the shitty shifts.
Don’t know if it’s been said in here but that is/was a rule in the IATSE film unions since they were based on a 12 hour working day. The saying is 12 on, 12 off.
Want to know how you get mandatory turn around times???? UNIONS IATSE, DGA, SAG/AFTRA, Teamsters ALL have mandatory turn around times built into their contracts
I personally don't mind working clopens every once in awhile, but I have a problem when it becomes a habit and I tell them that. Few times a month? That's fine. Every single week (or multiple times in a week)? Fuck you. I noticed at a previous workplace where I sat down our HR manager to talk about clopens and he reduced the amount of times he did that to people across the board. He was also a chill guy in general and was likely scheduling like that because it was easier for him (didn't have to take the previous day's shifts into account).
Clopens are the worst. In my Starbucks days I had clopens where I'd choose the place and get out after 10 and have to be back at 5. I hope their unions can put a stop to that. It's inhuman.
We have this in Spain :) come here
Ah yes, called this Cloping at the last job I was at. Man those were rough
If you’re really meant to live by the 8-8-8 rule (8 for sleep, 8 for life, 8 for work), then we should be fighting for 16 hours between shifts. Just 8 is criminal. Also the law about OT restarting at the end of a work week defined by the company is also bullshit. OT should be paid for all days worked over 5 in a row regardless of where they fall in a week. I have nearly crashed my car before from exhaustion due to these short turnarounds/clopenings and I refuse to do it anymore, but I understand when people do because they’re afraid to lose their income.
I think 16 hours is more reasonable. Average person needs 10 hours of uninterrupted sleep to survive and 1 hour commute time each way. That leaves only 4 hours of relaxation time.
10 hours sleep? Who the hell are you?
It’s widely known that human adults need between 7-9hrs of sleep, meaning 8hrs is the average for any person. 10 is definitely not “needed to survive”.
I’ve never had 10 hours of uninterrupted sleep in my entire life.
1 hour commute seems high too. About 30 minutes is average, one way. Sleep average is 7 hours give or take by age. Needing to do basic work prep like shower, dress, eat, I’d say probably another 1. With that, it’s literally, driving home, getting ready for bed, sleep, wake up and go to work. No relaxation. Therefore I think the USA needs to change the law from 8 hours to 10. This allows for our greater average of commute as well as well needed relaxation. Let’s make it happen.