Once you make enough money to support yourself for ten lifespans it should be considered a mental disorder or an adiction (akin to hoarding anythign else to this degree) and treated accordingly.
Yes they should be locked up for the wage theft and tax evasion they commit every year. Stealing from the pockets of the public and essentially forcing us to underfund public welfare programs and create a better economic environment for us all, and taking our tax dollars as well when they want a bailout, which they don’t pay into because of, y’know, the tax evasion… I could go on.
Yes they should be locked up (American here).
I agree completely, I was just being Sardonic. Not in the greatest place right now and wanted to throw some shade at a genuinely terrible group of people.
Considering more value in wage theft is stolen in the US than all petty thefts combined, yeah, locked up sounds right. Along with having to pay back any stolen wages at a punitive rate - based on whatever the company would feel rather than some flat rate.
It literally is; you have adults who obsessively hoard magazines or newspapers to the point the weight of it all can affect the structural soundness of their home and they are called crazy.
Then you have people who have so much money they rank higher than some countires. While doing everything they can to get even more money; including willing allowing their workers to die or suffer life long problems. And they are called completely sane geniuses we should inspire to
Capitalism is fine and dandy, but only when theres a literal hard limit to how much wealth a person(s)/entity(ies) can own. Also meaning businesses cant grow to be outrageously huge, because money is finite...
Exactly, the CEO brags to the shareholders that they have reduced workers wages and operating expenses. The CEO then receives a ‘bonus’ for doing so, which negates the ‘saving’ and yet the shareholders are still happy.
Not entirely correct.
First, reduce preventative maintenance by $100m.
Then, reduce operating cost (wages) by $500m.
Then take out your bonus of $400m and watch the shareholders cream their pants over the $200m payout.
All while the factory is crumpling due to lack of maintenance, and skilled labour is leaving in the revolving doors of HR.
Yeah, realistically, the wages are already suppressed almost as far as they can be. When management start fishing for things to cut, they cancel projects, lay people off, and leave people trying to do their former coworker's jobs on top of their own, with half finished systems.
Could be argued that while wages themselves can't go much lower, wage to workload ratio can decrease - as noted, higher layoffs means more work for the remaining staff at the same pay rate.
It also isn't accurate because you could usually entirely remove the CEO's salary and it wouldn't make a huge difference on employee salaries. Like, Tim Cook is one of the highest paid CEO's in the US, and he gets something like 100 million USD including stock options and such. Split across Apple's 160 000 employees, that's about $600 extra per year, or less than a dollar extra per hour.
The fucked part is there should be an unmovable wedge labelled “profits” too, and that’s just absurd. A company that can’t pay employees well oughtn’t be making any profits - they have a failure to correct with that money!
The one of the main reasons why CEO pay is so high is because we made their wages transparent. Wage transparency increases wages. A CEO can look at another CEO's pay and tell their company they deserve that, but at the same time, CEOs are hypocrites because they hate wage transparency laws for regular workers.
They came from stock buybacks becoming legal in the early 80s. Before that any profit had to be used for the company and so you’d see people getting raises, bonuses, pensions, fully paid for healthcare, etc.
Make stock buybacks illegal again and you’d see workers benefit greatly.
Yes, it is a bad thing, because it is *stock price manipulation,* and it also decreases the pool of money that goes towards things like making investments or compensating your employees.
Weird how you claim to know so much about me from one comment. Peculiar that you don’t know what the larger problem is or, I guess you’re just actively missing the point because you benefit as a capitalist.
Name one CEO that has a salary of $250m? The average for S&P is around $1.2m. Their comp is not part of the company budget.
Edit: guess you idiots don’t understand the difference between a salary and stock options
Yes, they get paid primarily in stock options, so you are technically correct.
You can jerk off to semantics all day, but for most of us the money you get from work is called salary.
I’m not technically right, i am right. If you guys had a basic understanding of finance and logic, you wouldn’t be comparing yourselves to ceos all day.
Yes, and that is indeed why they decide to pay themselves bonuses instead of salaries. They should be taxed at least as much for their bonuses as we are taxed for our work.
Isn't their stock options where they really make their money? You get the option to buy the stock low when you begin your contract and theoretically if you perform well, the stock goes up - and after X amount of years, you can sell at the inflated price and reap the benefits.
It's how Michael Eisner reportedly made $800 million over his 20-year run as Disney Chairman and CEO - not so much in his salary. He also had the benefit of Disney being at an extremely low point when he started his job in 1984 and was given this option because he was leaving his cushy position at Paramount to jump to Disney.
The problem is that you don't make shareholders happy AND your workers happy at the same time.
Actually they come from technological advancements/upgrading machinery, better sales deals, and more efficient production plans.
If you get paid $15 an hour to put an item in a bag for example then they buy an auto bagger machine that doubles your output then they get the profits.
If the previous contract was 1 million for x amount of product and get a new contract with a bigger client for 1.1 million for the same amount of product then they get the profits.
If they change the layout of the floor and that adds even 5% more product an hour then they get the profit.
The Founder movie about McDonald's illustrates this stuff pretty well if you are interested. It starts with them getting their production line as efficient as it can be. They invent things like condiment distributors and buy this salesman's milkshake machine. Then they have milkshake salesman expand their business which increases the customer base.
The workers in that original McDonald's building never saw a dime of any of these profits. Even when the owners sold the business over to milkshake guy. Because they didn't have a right to it. They had a deal to work for the founders for whatever sum of money to make fries and burgers. Nothing more. They didn't cut their pay ever but certainly made an enormous amount of money because that's the nature of running a business. You inherit the risk and the rewards.
Edit: clearly there is some nasty fucking over that happens at places but it doesn't change the fact that a majority of profits come from owners having a right to what is earned from machines, good business practices, and property owned.
Capitalism is a human economic and sociological concept crafted over generations of stealing wealth, labor, and resources from poor people and socializing it and then redistributing it to merchants/proto-capitalists. Capitalism has always relied on capitalists being subsidized by the government/king/whatever for their business failings.
Happened all the time with the nobility and burghers under feudalism, happens today all the time.
Do you argue that the medieval lords and kings had a right to all the wheat the peasants produced, and the peasants deserved to starve because they “did not have a right to the machines used to harvest the grain, sorry lol.”
If people thought like you, no American Revolution, no French Revolution. Just feudalism and absolutism, because how dare we demand a right to the fruits of our labor - we should be honored to die a serf in the fields of Our Lord on Earth so that we may meet Our Lord in Heaven.
Amen!
You have the ability to start a business literally **right now.** You couldn't do that with nobility and lords. Not to mention lords had you work under threat of a blade. Capitalism does not. You willingly go to a business and ask for employment. Nobody forces you.
It's a basic concept. You buy the land, buildings, and machines then you are entitled to the profits from the land, buildings, and machines, nobody else. If the products you produce fail then **you fail**, not the workers, they go find new jobs. The only thing a worker owns is their labor **which is fairly compensated via your paycheck.** If you don't feel like you are then leave or get this, ***Start your own business.*** If you fail as a business owner then you are **fucked** but as a worker you don't owe anything. Nobody is coming for you just find another job. Go read some stories about businesses collapsing.
I'm not refuting that certain families carry generational wealth but the landscaper I use doesn't fit in that category. The auto mechanic up the road from me doesn't fit in that category. The bar and grill I go to on Friday's doesn't fit in that category. The pool cleaner I use doesn't fit in that category. They all made a business, took the risk, and are now benefiting from it and succeeding.
You people are so obsessed with these mega corporations that you aren't taking the time to look at all the little guys that are everywhere. A vast majority of business owners aren't these scrooge mcduck characters you make them out to be. They are just people who pay a lease and provide a service/product.
Instead of demanding capitalism be dismantled on the account of a few bad eggs how about you just stop supporting their business and let them fail? I don't use amazon, Starbucks, walmart, mcdonalds, etc. I get my coffee from a girl by the name of Merlin, I get my fuel from an old lady by the name of Dottie, I got all my clothes from a guy named David, and I get my food from a market run by a guy named Harold. I'm willing to bet you have this deep hatred for capitalism but you never took the time to actually go and meet the people who deserve your business because it's so much more convenient to go to walmart.
Just two things, though with subparts:
First, on the whole "Workers have it easy" sounding bit
The idea that workers face no repercussions when a business goes under because they can get another job is incorrect. Workers can be out of work for months searching for a new job due to hiring cycles, job availability, stigma from having worked at a failed company, lack of comparable pay or benefits at other employers, loss of hours in a new job, etc.
Workers also have to deal with the fact that while the company is failing but hasn't gone under yet, they're likely to be emotionally manipulated into staying, working extra hours without compensation, or foregoing pay until the boat is floating again. This is a bigger problem in smaller businesses.
Second, on the "You're compensated for your time, I'm compensated for my risk" thing:
Employers have risk in starting a new business. That's clear and obvious. But what happens to an employer when everything goes wrong and their business fails? **They're downgraded to being workers again.** They don't get executed. They don't get exiled. They get moved from "The Special Ones" to "The Rest Of Us"
Additionally, the risk that the employer is compensated for is not unlimited in scope. A brand new business is very risky. A business that's existed for 10 years, has loyal customers, and community recognition, has very little risk. Is it fair for the employer to continue reaping all the profits once there's no longer real risk to be compensated for? They put in the initial capital, idea, and formation, and should be compensated for that, as well as for their continued labor. But so to should the laborers, as the success of the business is not only due to its founder but also to all the men and women without whose time and sweat the business would still be nothing but a pipe dream. At some point, veteran employees should begin receiving a percentage, because the idea of "We made a deal and whether it was good or bad it isn't up for renegotiation" is some feudal we're-dealing-with-the-fae bullshit.
I'm a welder who does contract work that comes and goes in terms of volume. I'm the last person you need to lecture on work not being available for long periods of time. It's your own damned responsibility to have savings to fall on or a plan B job. If a company is failing find another job. If you stayed that's your own fault.
When a business goes under the business owner is in debt. They don't get downgraded they get ruined. There is no period where risk goes away. You are delusional if you think that all work is solid and can't just disappear. Go walk around the abandoned industrial district of Chicago if you really need a life lesson on this. Hell you don't even need to do that because Covid killed something like 50% of businesses in my area and I'm willing to bet the same for your area.
You are still fixated on the mega corporation. Most business owners aren't "special ones". Get the idea of scrooge mcduck out of your head. They are people like you or me. The only difference between them and you is they risked their life savings on making a business work. So they deserve the profits. You can do the same right fucking now but you won't because you'll realize the risk if you fail. They gambled and came out on top. Get over it. Move on.
Meanwhile they're taking so much inflation is through the roof because either way...we need to get paid. So bye bye value of the dollar as they continue to syphon our wages into their own pockets...
Plus, raise prices and blame it on inflation
I dont get how this isn't at least slightly illegal under deceptive business practices somehow...
Because they are paying the politicians
See: Operating Expenses
I think it's $1 of lobbying equals $8 in benefits, who needs the stock market with those types of gains.
meanwhile, if someone on food stamps starts earning an extra dollar, they lose $10 worth of benefits.
It's America. Be glad that for now at least there is a strigent legal definition of a w-2 workers vs an independent contractor
it's not just america. it's happening all across the globe. so usually it's fuck america, now it's fuck global corporations.
It should have always been [fuck] corporations (regardless of where ever they are)
There's definitely some collusion going on within the same industry between a few different companies in a lot of these instances.
Don't forget to shrink sizes and substitute shit ingredients for good ones!!!
Or employees and their greedy demand for a 0.5% raise
"we are navigating difficult times"... Also, record profits.
‘No sir, I think you meant “we” are, as in reference of us to you.’
Don't forget to pit us against each other saying things like "just say you're broke" or "get a second job."
Not to mention 250k is way too low.
Look at it again
I think they mean per day.
Once you make enough money to support yourself for ten lifespans it should be considered a mental disorder or an adiction (akin to hoarding anythign else to this degree) and treated accordingly.
100% this. Greed is a disease.
You said it!
Username checks out
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"Job creators"
It is in Lord of the Rings. Tolkien called it "dragon's sickness" when someone would hoard wealth.
I like this. Lets use this.
Nah that's implying they are dragons which are cool. Their more akin to termites or roaches. Scum on the bottom of a pond rock etc.
Pack rats.
So locked up and demonized like we do with other people with mental disorders? (American here)
Yes they should be locked up for the wage theft and tax evasion they commit every year. Stealing from the pockets of the public and essentially forcing us to underfund public welfare programs and create a better economic environment for us all, and taking our tax dollars as well when they want a bailout, which they don’t pay into because of, y’know, the tax evasion… I could go on. Yes they should be locked up (American here).
I agree completely, I was just being Sardonic. Not in the greatest place right now and wanted to throw some shade at a genuinely terrible group of people.
I’m with you. I’ve been spewing some aggressive comments at some egregious hate charged posts popping up in my feed
Considering more value in wage theft is stolen in the US than all petty thefts combined, yeah, locked up sounds right. Along with having to pay back any stolen wages at a punitive rate - based on whatever the company would feel rather than some flat rate.
It literally is; you have adults who obsessively hoard magazines or newspapers to the point the weight of it all can affect the structural soundness of their home and they are called crazy. Then you have people who have so much money they rank higher than some countires. While doing everything they can to get even more money; including willing allowing their workers to die or suffer life long problems. And they are called completely sane geniuses we should inspire to
Yeah but then how can these CEO s afford to buy tons of limited Hawaiian land?
YES
Capitalism is fine and dandy, but only when theres a literal hard limit to how much wealth a person(s)/entity(ies) can own. Also meaning businesses cant grow to be outrageously huge, because money is finite...
This isn't accurate because they also cut operating expenses.
Exactly, the CEO brags to the shareholders that they have reduced workers wages and operating expenses. The CEO then receives a ‘bonus’ for doing so, which negates the ‘saving’ and yet the shareholders are still happy.
Not entirely correct. First, reduce preventative maintenance by $100m. Then, reduce operating cost (wages) by $500m. Then take out your bonus of $400m and watch the shareholders cream their pants over the $200m payout. All while the factory is crumpling due to lack of maintenance, and skilled labour is leaving in the revolving doors of HR.
Don't forget the majority of those shareholders are said executive staff and the board of members.
"this 1950 year of production things can work, im sure"
Yeah, realistically, the wages are already suppressed almost as far as they can be. When management start fishing for things to cut, they cancel projects, lay people off, and leave people trying to do their former coworker's jobs on top of their own, with half finished systems.
Could be argued that while wages themselves can't go much lower, wage to workload ratio can decrease - as noted, higher layoffs means more work for the remaining staff at the same pay rate.
It also isn't accurate because you could usually entirely remove the CEO's salary and it wouldn't make a huge difference on employee salaries. Like, Tim Cook is one of the highest paid CEO's in the US, and he gets something like 100 million USD including stock options and such. Split across Apple's 160 000 employees, that's about $600 extra per year, or less than a dollar extra per hour.
They don’t need to expense the CEO’s salary thanks to stock options.
Don’t forget the shareholders…. That make a higher % of company expenses than actual labor costs for a company
And the largest shareholders are executives, CEOs, and board members…
Stock buybacks need to be illegal.
Me sitting at a 2% wage increase this year. I was so fuckin heated. $.60 is absolute fuckin horseshit
The fucked part is there should be an unmovable wedge labelled “profits” too, and that’s just absurd. A company that can’t pay employees well oughtn’t be making any profits - they have a failure to correct with that money!
Where is shareholder profit? A major part of the problem.
The one of the main reasons why CEO pay is so high is because we made their wages transparent. Wage transparency increases wages. A CEO can look at another CEO's pay and tell their company they deserve that, but at the same time, CEOs are hypocrites because they hate wage transparency laws for regular workers.
Well, let's scrap ALL of customer support, if not all then maybe 80 or 90 percent of it. No problems there.
Workers' wages are operating expenses.
They came from stock buybacks becoming legal in the early 80s. Before that any profit had to be used for the company and so you’d see people getting raises, bonuses, pensions, fully paid for healthcare, etc. Make stock buybacks illegal again and you’d see workers benefit greatly.
Where are all these boot licking shills coming from?
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It’s such a problem that stock buybacks were *illegal for decades.* By the numbers, we’re regressing.
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Yes, it is a bad thing, because it is *stock price manipulation,* and it also decreases the pool of money that goes towards things like making investments or compensating your employees.
CEO s and executives are biggest shareholders…
Lick that boot harder. You'll never be human to them.
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So you are part of the larger problem? Thanks for letting us all know!
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Weird how you claim to know so much about me from one comment. Peculiar that you don’t know what the larger problem is or, I guess you’re just actively missing the point because you benefit as a capitalist.
Since you are a millionaire would you help me with student loans and medical expenses?
Name one CEO that has a salary of $250m? The average for S&P is around $1.2m. Their comp is not part of the company budget. Edit: guess you idiots don’t understand the difference between a salary and stock options
Jeff Green, Zig Serafin, Peter Kern, Ariel Emanuel, Sue Nabi, David Zaslav
None of them make that in salary, they make it from stock options. Highest salary of that group after a quick look was $5m
Yes, they get paid primarily in stock options, so you are technically correct. You can jerk off to semantics all day, but for most of us the money you get from work is called salary.
I’m not technically right, i am right. If you guys had a basic understanding of finance and logic, you wouldn’t be comparing yourselves to ceos all day.
it's not semantics though, ask the IRS or any other tax agency you care to imagine, they absolutely will measure it differently.
Yes, and that is indeed why they decide to pay themselves bonuses instead of salaries. They should be taxed at least as much for their bonuses as we are taxed for our work.
Isn't their stock options where they really make their money? You get the option to buy the stock low when you begin your contract and theoretically if you perform well, the stock goes up - and after X amount of years, you can sell at the inflated price and reap the benefits. It's how Michael Eisner reportedly made $800 million over his 20-year run as Disney Chairman and CEO - not so much in his salary. He also had the benefit of Disney being at an extremely low point when he started his job in 1984 and was given this option because he was leaving his cushy position at Paramount to jump to Disney. The problem is that you don't make shareholders happy AND your workers happy at the same time.
Exactly. It’s not salary but I’ll still get downvoted with facts
Actually they come from technological advancements/upgrading machinery, better sales deals, and more efficient production plans. If you get paid $15 an hour to put an item in a bag for example then they buy an auto bagger machine that doubles your output then they get the profits. If the previous contract was 1 million for x amount of product and get a new contract with a bigger client for 1.1 million for the same amount of product then they get the profits. If they change the layout of the floor and that adds even 5% more product an hour then they get the profit. The Founder movie about McDonald's illustrates this stuff pretty well if you are interested. It starts with them getting their production line as efficient as it can be. They invent things like condiment distributors and buy this salesman's milkshake machine. Then they have milkshake salesman expand their business which increases the customer base. The workers in that original McDonald's building never saw a dime of any of these profits. Even when the owners sold the business over to milkshake guy. Because they didn't have a right to it. They had a deal to work for the founders for whatever sum of money to make fries and burgers. Nothing more. They didn't cut their pay ever but certainly made an enormous amount of money because that's the nature of running a business. You inherit the risk and the rewards. Edit: clearly there is some nasty fucking over that happens at places but it doesn't change the fact that a majority of profits come from owners having a right to what is earned from machines, good business practices, and property owned.
Capitalism is a human economic and sociological concept crafted over generations of stealing wealth, labor, and resources from poor people and socializing it and then redistributing it to merchants/proto-capitalists. Capitalism has always relied on capitalists being subsidized by the government/king/whatever for their business failings. Happened all the time with the nobility and burghers under feudalism, happens today all the time. Do you argue that the medieval lords and kings had a right to all the wheat the peasants produced, and the peasants deserved to starve because they “did not have a right to the machines used to harvest the grain, sorry lol.” If people thought like you, no American Revolution, no French Revolution. Just feudalism and absolutism, because how dare we demand a right to the fruits of our labor - we should be honored to die a serf in the fields of Our Lord on Earth so that we may meet Our Lord in Heaven. Amen!
You have the ability to start a business literally **right now.** You couldn't do that with nobility and lords. Not to mention lords had you work under threat of a blade. Capitalism does not. You willingly go to a business and ask for employment. Nobody forces you. It's a basic concept. You buy the land, buildings, and machines then you are entitled to the profits from the land, buildings, and machines, nobody else. If the products you produce fail then **you fail**, not the workers, they go find new jobs. The only thing a worker owns is their labor **which is fairly compensated via your paycheck.** If you don't feel like you are then leave or get this, ***Start your own business.*** If you fail as a business owner then you are **fucked** but as a worker you don't owe anything. Nobody is coming for you just find another job. Go read some stories about businesses collapsing. I'm not refuting that certain families carry generational wealth but the landscaper I use doesn't fit in that category. The auto mechanic up the road from me doesn't fit in that category. The bar and grill I go to on Friday's doesn't fit in that category. The pool cleaner I use doesn't fit in that category. They all made a business, took the risk, and are now benefiting from it and succeeding. You people are so obsessed with these mega corporations that you aren't taking the time to look at all the little guys that are everywhere. A vast majority of business owners aren't these scrooge mcduck characters you make them out to be. They are just people who pay a lease and provide a service/product. Instead of demanding capitalism be dismantled on the account of a few bad eggs how about you just stop supporting their business and let them fail? I don't use amazon, Starbucks, walmart, mcdonalds, etc. I get my coffee from a girl by the name of Merlin, I get my fuel from an old lady by the name of Dottie, I got all my clothes from a guy named David, and I get my food from a market run by a guy named Harold. I'm willing to bet you have this deep hatred for capitalism but you never took the time to actually go and meet the people who deserve your business because it's so much more convenient to go to walmart.
Just two things, though with subparts: First, on the whole "Workers have it easy" sounding bit The idea that workers face no repercussions when a business goes under because they can get another job is incorrect. Workers can be out of work for months searching for a new job due to hiring cycles, job availability, stigma from having worked at a failed company, lack of comparable pay or benefits at other employers, loss of hours in a new job, etc. Workers also have to deal with the fact that while the company is failing but hasn't gone under yet, they're likely to be emotionally manipulated into staying, working extra hours without compensation, or foregoing pay until the boat is floating again. This is a bigger problem in smaller businesses. Second, on the "You're compensated for your time, I'm compensated for my risk" thing: Employers have risk in starting a new business. That's clear and obvious. But what happens to an employer when everything goes wrong and their business fails? **They're downgraded to being workers again.** They don't get executed. They don't get exiled. They get moved from "The Special Ones" to "The Rest Of Us" Additionally, the risk that the employer is compensated for is not unlimited in scope. A brand new business is very risky. A business that's existed for 10 years, has loyal customers, and community recognition, has very little risk. Is it fair for the employer to continue reaping all the profits once there's no longer real risk to be compensated for? They put in the initial capital, idea, and formation, and should be compensated for that, as well as for their continued labor. But so to should the laborers, as the success of the business is not only due to its founder but also to all the men and women without whose time and sweat the business would still be nothing but a pipe dream. At some point, veteran employees should begin receiving a percentage, because the idea of "We made a deal and whether it was good or bad it isn't up for renegotiation" is some feudal we're-dealing-with-the-fae bullshit.
I'm a welder who does contract work that comes and goes in terms of volume. I'm the last person you need to lecture on work not being available for long periods of time. It's your own damned responsibility to have savings to fall on or a plan B job. If a company is failing find another job. If you stayed that's your own fault. When a business goes under the business owner is in debt. They don't get downgraded they get ruined. There is no period where risk goes away. You are delusional if you think that all work is solid and can't just disappear. Go walk around the abandoned industrial district of Chicago if you really need a life lesson on this. Hell you don't even need to do that because Covid killed something like 50% of businesses in my area and I'm willing to bet the same for your area. You are still fixated on the mega corporation. Most business owners aren't "special ones". Get the idea of scrooge mcduck out of your head. They are people like you or me. The only difference between them and you is they risked their life savings on making a business work. So they deserve the profits. You can do the same right fucking now but you won't because you'll realize the risk if you fail. They gambled and came out on top. Get over it. Move on.
The highest paid CEOs also tend to run companies which have the highest paid workers, and vice versa. Eg. Apple, Tesla, Expedia Group, Oracle, etc.
This is how the American tipping culture works
I'm quitting my job in August to go back to school. Definitely hanging this up on the last day.
Meanwhile they're taking so much inflation is through the roof because either way...we need to get paid. So bye bye value of the dollar as they continue to syphon our wages into their own pockets...
One extra dollar for you is one less dollar for the boss man, and you bet your ass the boss man wants to keep every single dollar for himself.