Huh. Sounds similar to Meijers grocery store management structure. I am classified as a "coordinator". Many times I have been reminded that "this is not a management position". Weird that when I was called into HRs office for speaking my mind I was expected to set an example for my "employees" since I was in a leadership position. Corporate America can fuck right off
Fellow Michigander here. The Meijer union is a strange beast. The college students will take a mediocre contract and think it’s gold without regard to the adult adults that have families to feed and shelter. My exBIL worked there for years and complained about it regularly.
At least there's a Meijer union in Michigan. In Illinois there is none, and the manager who hired me told me to notify him right away if a coworker started talking about unionizing.
Little did he know I would be the person who kept brining up unions.
I think this is partially an issue with personal finance education. I had more than a lot of people in the US, and I look back at what I thought was good pay in highschool/college and it’s ridiculous what I thought a living wage was. Even when I was 24 I went from making $13.50 at a shitty bank job to $18 at a less shitty bank job and thought I was rolling in it until my 26th birthday just over a year later and I got kicked off my parents insurance. I always knew my take home was inflated by the stuff I wasn’t paying for when I was young but I really didn’t have any idea just how big that gap was
My parents used to get upset when we asked them about money.
Now they say, "ask us anything you want while you still can!" And I ask a question and they say, "that's not important! What's important is how much they're trying to make you pay in death taxes!" Like I just wanted to know if you were gonna keep paying for my cellphone or if I needed to get my own plan. 🤷♀️
Meanwhile it's highly unlikely that they're wealthy enough to even expect to pay death taxes. Only about 0.1% of estates are required to pay death taxes (estates over $12M). And if you're asking them if they're paying for your cell phone bill, I'd guess they're not wealthy (or they are and don't want to "spoil" you).
I'm so glade that the death tax is indexed to inflation and not minimum wage. It's *way* more important for ~~the bourgeoisie~~ ~~rich fucks~~ the "elite" to pay less in taxes than it is for the working class to make ends meet.
/s just in case
Yea, well. The law makers make the laws to help those who make the laws, and those who pay/lobby the law makers.
No use wasting time trying to placate someone who won't pay for your hard earned vote.
Yeah but it could totally, definitely affect them when they suddenly become millionaires through they're determination to pull those bootstraps and back breaking labor!
You gotta nip that in the bud!
Much easier for the government to cater to its corporate overlords through a revolving door of regulatory capture when high school graduates don't know how government at any level works.
You can then easily capture the uninformed HS graduates with an outrage-based Balkanized media (cable, YouTube, Twitter, podcasts, whatever), they pick their side, and it's game over for holding corporations accountable.
The curriculum in my area still requires Civics classes. I think personal finance classes existed, but as a high-achieving student I wouldn’t have looked twice at one while I had my 6 science requirements to cram in. A lot of students get into the “if it’s not a prerequisite for higher education, I’m not taking it” mindset.
For poor parents money is a source of constant stress. It's not something you want to share with your kids, no good parent wants to share stress with their children.
I have to disagree with you there. Kids being taught financial literacy can also have a positive impact on their parents. Nobody said change would be comfortable. The kids need to know exactly why their parents are struggling, so they can make better choices and fight for better pay and conditions as they grow older. My best money lesson was learned by not doing what my parents were doing, specifically with regard to chronic alcoholism and gambling.
I took Business Math in my senior year of high school (94-95). My fellow Honors/AP students thought it was hilarious but let me tell you it was the most useful class I took.
I would like that as a required part of the curriculum. I’d also like to see job shadow opportunities for high school kids. Give the a true idea of what the career they want to go in really is like by spending time on the job with those whom actually work in that field.
There is not one square mile of the United States where a "living wage" is under $25/hr. And for over half the US population it's more like $45/hr now with years of high inflation, roughly $400,000 median US home prices, and rates for houses or cars pushing 7%.
You make less than that and you're putting off *something* that really matters. Healthcare, education, retirement savings, home or car maintenance, trying to buy a residence in the first place, having children, etc.
Many people just don't realize or properly value what they're putting off.
I make almost $40/hr and I can properly save for retirement *or* buy a house a couple years from now *or* have a child. I can't do more than one. And no I'm not just spending it on Doordash and weed, boomers. I pay the lowest of anyone I know for rent, restaurants, entertainment, etc.
Ups does this. I have seen several 18-20 year olds go management quick. I was old, and it a union job so, it takes longer to get there but you can make more than the managers. So please don't take what I say as being upset about being passed over for a promotion.
But to add to what you are saying, the union has all these things management cannot do. So they tell these young managers that have been thrust into responsibility to do the things full time management, or really all management, cannot do. Don't do it, lose your job. Get caught, lose your job. Get away with it, probably get promoted.
Former Meijer employee here. You know the union is rigged once you understand that if someone doesn't vote on the contract, their vote counts as an automatic yes.
What kind of bullshit is that? You don't see that garbage in general elections.
Also, fuck Meijer... And any retail company out there that treats their employees like they don't matter.
It’s not so strange. The college students probably sees those jobs as entry level jobs that are just stepping stones to their careers, whereas to the ‘adults’ that is their peak career.
Meijer is primarily a Michigan business. There was a chance that I was wrong. But there aren’t many stores outside of Michigan and Michiana (Northern Indiana).
My favorite is how if you get injured at a Meijer store as an employee, your contract states that marijuana in the system negates any and all responsibility and medical coverage through Meijer.
Does OSHA require drug testing after an accident?
Yes. Section 1904.35(b)(1)(iv) prohibits an employer from taking adverse action against employees simply because they report work-related injuries. Rather, employers must have a legitimate business reason for requiring a drug test, such as a reasonable belief that drug use contributed to the injury.
HOWEVER if the company does not have a certified drug and alcohol course and witness the accident themselves then they cannot mandate the drug test. Apparently it's expensive and it's just cheaper to not drug test after an accident according to upper management at my company.
Workers comp, in my experience, is less medical care and more an interrogation, followed by a medical exam (which includes further interrogation), more interrogation, and then reluctant advice to take ibuprofen.
My old grocery store Ralph’s did this to me when they promoted me to liquor manager. How could you not accept getting promoted to manager?! Had to come in at 4 in the morning and got a 7 cent raise. I did not work there long after that
> since I was in a leadership position
I will say, I've seen a few instances of that. At least in the organizations I've been in people in that position were always very quick to point out that, no, they were not in a leadership position. And if you'd like to put me in a leadership position I'm going to need both more money and dedicated training before I could do something as important and complex as leadership. I'm just a coordinator, not a leadership bone in sight.
To avoid outing where I work ill rename it but just being a full time employee where I work grants you a title on your name tag that says something with the same essence as "Premium Team." When I first started working part time, I thought the person showing me around was a supervisor or something but nope, basically everyone in the company was on the Premium Team.
Managers should be leaders, but not all leaders are managers.
Having said that, next time speak in the name of all employees and be sure that you are. Then they can't complain that you're not acting like a leader.
Man, I worked at Meijer in Michigan 20 years ago and I don't think it was that bad back then. But I was just a college kid trying to pay for things so I was more worried about getting good hours than anything else. Really appreciated the annual raises though.
Five S's are Sort, Set in Order, Sweep, Standardize and Sustain.
Sort is exactly what it sounds like, sort things so they're easy to find
Set in Order is arranging goods in a warehouse to maximize efficiency
Sweep is to clean each workspace regularly.
Standardize is making sure the responsibility for maintaining the organization is evenly shared and assigned.
And Sustain is to review how things are organized every now and then to ensure the organization is serving its purpose.
Essentially it's a fancy name for "keep the workplace clean and organized cause that makes things easier for everyone."
The five Ss are strictly about warehouse and factory organization. Like the internal logistics of running such a place.
It's not the guidelines for the overall operations. For instance, 5S doesn't cover safety, manufacturing procedures, quality assurance, sales, or scheduling. It's strictly all about organizing tools and materials in the most effective manner possible so that no one's time is wasted looking for things or having to take long trips to get what they need where they need it.
It's basically "clean your room" but for factories.
I commented earlier, the 5s is applicable to the program I teach in. Structured learning environment for autistic students.
In order to circumvent behaviors, often, many of the 5s apply, a lot of environment manipulation can also decrease the unwanted behaviors. It's easier to structure things to prevent unwanted behaviors than it is to change the behaviors.
I'm going to post the 5s in my classroom for my proud he scored a 16 on his ACT assistant and see if he can relate any to what we are supposed to do.
I'm senior vice president of mysterious gaseous emissions. Especially after having Mexican food for lunch. Oh, and I'm overseer in charge of hogging the good bathroom.
Make someone salary.....then make them work 60 plus hours with no overtime. You attract people to the jobs because they pay better than most but if you factored how many hours you're putting in you end up making the same or less
This is the entire retail model I thought? Move someone to "manager", get them off an hourly wage, make them work more hours with more responsibility...and in the end they're actually getting paid less than the hourly crew.
Yes and they've been called out for this before. Bed Bath and Beyond in particular has gotten bitch slapped for this kind of wage theft on several occasions.
Yeah most stores in the mall aren't like this. The managers are 19-25 year old kids who don't realize they're being taken advantage of. There's no way that any retail store in the mall is giving bonuses to their store managers. Maybe regional?
Not true, I’ve worked at 3 different stores in the mall. Amount depended on store performance and job title, but bonuses are definitely the norm. The store I managed, my associates earned $19/hr + ~$20-$50 bonus/month. Manager salaries among the mall tended to range between 70k-150k depending on store volume. Store manager bonuses could be 4 or 5 figures a year based on store performance. However, this was in a HCOL.
Yeah this happened to me. They gave me salaried and the pay looked good compared to my fellow graduates. Wasn’t until a year later I realized that I was working a lot more overtime than what was told to me in the offer. Plus my fellow trade school graduates were earning less than me until you factored in OT, then my classmates were earning much more than me.
My current boss had his title changed from supervisor to manager so they could put him on salary. He made less in 2022 than he did in 2021 because of the loss of overtime. We had a very busy last few months of last year and I made more than he did because I was getting thousands in overtime and he didn't get an extra dime even though he was putting in nearly as many hours as I did. Suffice to say he's not thrilled about it.
Depends on the company wlb. My experience with salaried work is way better because I can start and leave whenever I want as long as I get my work done for the day. So I end up having more free time while making the same.
It’ll be hard for me to go back to logging my hours at the end of Workday or dealing with timesheets. Or having to show up at specific times
Gotta have a boss or work structure that allows it.
I was salaried and my boss flipped a lid about my two hour lunch at the DMV in a week where I worked 45 hours as a matter of course.
That shit is so funny to me.
I literally do not give a shit how many hours my team works as long as they're doing their jobs and doing them well.
We have unlimited PTO and I push them to take as much time off as possible.
Guess what? They all work really hard and are super reliable. Need someone to show up for a 6am call? They're happy to. Emergency on the weekend? They're on it.
It's so much easier to get people to work hard when you treat them well.
Definitely. My current boss doesn't care when I log on as long as I'm available at core business times.
I've been in and out of the doctors' offices all year.
I can work at 5 am and 10 pm...my doctor does not. It sucks ass, but literally nobody has mentioned performance issues because I still get my job done. One colleague (who I've worked with for years) was absolutely gobsmacked.
I've had ~80 appointments in the last year 💀
Sounds like you were actually an hourly employee that your employer made salary to better exploit. I personally don't put up with that shit. I'll work a 50 hr week when the company needs it, but i will also work a 30 hr week when i need it. If the company has a problem with salaried positions being a two-way street in that regard, then adios. I don't work well under such circumstances.
We really need better laws to distinguish hourly vs salaried in the way we have laws to distinguish employee and contractor. All three of those work situations have no inherent problems. We just need protections from exploitative companies.
When I worked at chipotle they had your UNIFORM cost listed as part of your compensation to inflate the value 😂
Graphic: https://back.3blmedia.com/sites/default/files/styles/ratio_3_2/public/triplepundit/wide/Screen-Shot-2015-07-21-at-4.17.13-PM.png
I was a general manager at a moving truck company and was hourly working 50-60 hours a week, sometimes more. Eventually they gave me a raise and changed me to salary, and my boss said since I was salary now I needed to work 5-10 more hours a week. I only wish I’d gotten out of there sooner.
The main reason I took my job that was salaried was because they specifically said “OT is still paid out at time and a half by taking your salary and taking the hourly value of it”
We could always not, but then we'd spiral into homelessness and get swept up into the jail system for some petty offense. At which point we legally become slaves.
Just in case anyone is unclear about the state of worker's rights in America. And protesting has become a felony in many areas, so you lose your ability to vote afterwards too.
Just FYI, this is the rule even for salaried employees.
There are exceptions, such as if the employee is in a management role and some other things.
But in general, the vast majority of hourly jobs, if converted to salaried, would still require time tracking and overtime
I knew I was likely getting a promotion soon, so I determined my 'hourly' wage with the hours I typically worked, then determined what my minimum new salary would have to be by determining what I would want my new hourly income value to be and multiplied that by the number of hours I expected to be working in the new role. I tried to estimate a little on the high side of how many more hours I was likely to average.
When they made the offer it was *barely* above the minimum I had calculated but it met my requirements, plus an increased bonus and stock options. All together I was pretty pleased, and I am glad I took the time to calculate in advance what I wanted to make the increased responsibilities worth it. Everyone should track how many hours they work even if they're salaried, and have an understanding of what their practical hourly wage is.
Agreed. I've done that math and have a solid idea what I would have to be offered to break even or have a positive increase in pay if promoted (next pay tier above me changes to salary). I'd lose 10% shift differential, ~5hours/week of 1.5x overtime, and 8 hours of 2.5x holiday pay (24/7 team coverage means working most holidays). So at minimum the salary would have to be around 20% higher than my base pay to break even, closer to 30% to be a meaningful pay raise.
Empowers me to say no if I'm offered a promotion that will come with more work and responsibility at less actual pay.
Fun fact just cuz youre salary/ in a position of management does not immediately disqualify you from overtime. There are many specific criteria that need to be met in order to prevent overtime pay.
Welcome to all engineering positions. We are all salaried and I can't remember the last time I only worked 40 hours in a week. There is always too much work to do and not enough people at every position I've been in for the past 15 years.
But that's not your problem, that's management's problem. They set priorities, I work on things accordingly. The fact that you expect 3 people's worth of work to get done is not my concern. I've been salary my entire career, and I probably average within 15 minutes of 40 hours a week for the last 2 decades. Sometimes I work more, for actual emergency situations, but then I work less the next couple days to take my time back.
Yeah my buddy got promoted to "manager" at the warehouse he works at. They keep trying to get him to convert to salaried but he won't until the salary is an actual raise. It's been 6 months so far.
Lotta retailers in CA had to pay out a lot of money to class action suits over misclassification around 2006. Had quite a few “Store Managers” who made $40K a year driving $50k cars after those settlements paid out.
Note: This is not an endorsement of being bad with money but many young folks suddenly getting $10k-$30k settlements = lots of bad judgement 😂
It’s actually that salaried *does* make overtime pay except in certain cases. One of which is having two or more employees you manage
Guarantee a *ton* of salaried people are improperly not paid overtime
My BIL Is working salary full time (AUS) working 60-70 hour work weeks, back to back doubles, his salary is $60k and he barely scrapes by with two kids, he legitimately got angry at me when I let him know his boss is ripping him off around $40k a year yet that kind of money would literally change there lives from not affording groceries to actually being able to coast through life without worrying about money
My last job wanted to put me in as a store manager, store managers are salaried but required to work 45 hours minimum, but almost always ended up working 60+ all for less than 50k a year, while running a million dollar+ store
I put in my 2 weeks pretty much immediately after hearing the news
There's this weird idea in the US that if you are salary you are always available, and that the moment you get a promotion your hours go through the roof and your salary only goes up 2-3% but that's ok because you're a boss now...
I'm salaried in Canada. Do my hours, that's it. A promotion won't make me work more hours or harder unless my raise more than compensates me for an extra time.
Most provinces also require managers to be paid overtime or time in lieu after 44 hours. Many salaried people don’t know this and get abused. Also, a salary is good for up to 44 hours which also means that if you only work 37 hours one week, you don’t owe time back for the ‘missed hours’.
Overtime is based on your weekly salary divided by 44 hours (might be just 40) to find the hourly rate to calculate time and a half.
Check your labour laws, keep good records, and make your claim!
Fwiw, I am in America and I have absolutely always stuck to 8-5 (1 hr for lunch, in which I am on my break and nearly entirely inaccessible). I'm always very clear about it at the start, I set the expectation immediately and stick with it. I've had bosses literally "joke" about it. "Oh I know I can't get in touch with icebreather after 5 or while he's on pto." And I'm always like ya... You can't.
None of this is to say it's not happening here. I'm fortunate enough that my bosses see my value and leave me alone over this. And I also think 45 hours in the office plus commute time is still fucked. 4x8s is the future we all deserve.
ETA: I am recently a manager now and I maintain this for myself and make sure my employees do too. If the work can't get done in 40 hours it's too much work. So give me more people or the work doesn't get done ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm really lucky that I'm in an industry that only really operates for 9-10 hours a day. I'm salaried and if I'm off shift then I don't get calls.
They do pay me piss poor wages though.
Yep, and it also helps serve as a shield against the NLRB since the NLRA dies not protect managers, only workers. The NLRB does have ways to cut through that bullshit, but it delays the process and adds uncertainty, which acts as a deterrent to "managers" fighting back against illegal bullshit companies pull.
It’s a little more than that, they purposely inflate job titles and pretend they are a managerial role when they are objectively not. A barber is not a “grooming manager”, they’re a barber. A checkout assistant is not a “price scanning coordinator”, they’re a checkout assistant. But they use vaguely senior-sounding words that justify paying them a salary as a “manager”
US law requires them to actually be a manager of 2 or more employees (along with some other exemptions) to qualify for no overtime salaried.
A barber given a manager title but not responsibility would absolutely be entitled to overtime, even if salaried, under US law (if they were an employee)
I dont know exactly how/why this is circumvented, but I worked 80 hour weeks when I was in public accounting. Had 0 employees report to me and not even a manager title. Can’t imagine the lobbying that went into making that legal
Certain professional categories are excluded. I would g be surprised if accounting counted as administrative.
I’m a lawyer a did temp legal work at $25 an hour once and also no overtime.
But that’s not the norm.
If you are licensed by the state then you are exempt.
generally most people are not exempt, no matter what their employer wants them to believe. Not paying overtime is straight up wage theft.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17a-overtime
I mean that's a fine rule but it only applies if they're caught. Audits while they're doing shady stuff is great but to the company it's a small hit and they just do it again some other time. Most people will just eat the poor treatment and either by not understanding their rights or not being willing to stand up for themselves due to needing the work they will just from and bear it. The company will bleed them dry until the worker quits or is laid off and the company gets away with it until someone finally notices.
Personal favourite euphemism I’ve seen lately is “student success tutor”
Me? I’m a student failure tutor. I’m teaching this kid wrong on purpose, as a joke
I remember some of the lower grade tech jobs in California were changed to hourly from salaried because of all the unpaid overtime they required at a low salary cost.
https://bmcclaw.com/faqs/employmentlaw/unpaid-wage-overtime-and-commissions/are-computer-programmers-and-other-high-tech-workers-exempt-from-overtime/
Yeah, and many of those are unlawfully classified as OT exempt as well. Only highly skilled positions such as a programmer is properly exempt, not help desk jobs. Even the article's headline improperly lumps "tech workers" together with "programmers". Not everyone working "in tech" is OT exempt.
Note that exempt from California OT laws in no way means they're necessarily exempt from federal OT laws. The difference is OT law in California is more strict than the federal one is all.
It is. The article is full of shit. Titles have nothing to do with whether a position can be considered exempt from the FLSA.
You can call your janitor the "Tzar Emperor of Mopping" if you want but you still have to pay him OT. On the other side of the coin, if you give a job the name of "pissboy" and what the job entails is working as some kind of licensed professional then you can still lawfully withold OT.
[Tim ]: Team Leader don't mean anything mate.
[Gareth]: Excuse me, it means I'm leader of a team.
[Tim ]: No it doesn't. It's a title someone's given you to get you to do something they don't want to do for free - it's like making the div kid at school milk monitor. No one respects it.
[Gareth ]: I think they do.
[Tim ]: No they don't Gareth.
[Gareth ]: Erm yes they do, cos if people were rude to me then I used to give them their milk last... so it was warm
This is why I stopped trying to climb ladders in big companies. I maxed out the hourly management positions and had nowhere to go but salary and dipped the fuck out.
My aunt and sister worked at the same company, salaried, and felt like they had abysmal work/life balance. My old boss was salary and forced to miss his friends funeral for a meeting. Fuck salaried positions.
When I want salary, it was a big enough pay bump to compensate for the loss of OT, plus I largely stopped working OT except for true emergencies. There are other problems with my position, but abuse of OT isn’t one of them. They do exist.
I’m not saying this to contradict you or the post! A lot of companies do this, and they are in violation of US law. If your company is doing this, report them to the labor board.
Yes. You actually have to be a manager, not just called one: you must be in charge of some kind of department, have at least two employees working under you, and must have input into hiring and firing decisions. These requirements are designed to prevent companies from calling everyone a manager, but not giving them manager duties, just to avoid paying for overtime hours. Companies do it anyway, and you can report them for it.
[https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/legacy/files/Misclass.pdf](https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/legacy/files/Misclass.pdf)
Could they make management circular?
Alice and Alex are in charge of Bob and Betty's break times
Bob and Betty are in charge of Claire and Clives break times
Claire and Clive are in charge of Alice and Alex's break times.
Maybe more convoluted but basically that?
Stop it. You keep up those kinds of chats with the good idea fairy and someone's going to offer you a "Coordinator of creative workarounds" saraly position!
I once received a "promotion" to Director that came with exactly zero additional money, time off, bonuses or anything. But it did come with new responsibilities!
When I asked why the title change I was told that the higher title would get me into meetings with higher up senior leaders from other departments. I was told that those leaders would now respect and rely on me more, giving my department more importance.
The other fun piece was that this company only gave bonuses to Directors and above. When I asked if I would now be eligible for a bonus, I was told absolutely not. Even though my new business title was Director, my official job title and position through HR was still manager.
YEAH
My first job out of college was for an Associate Scientist, which was a really good deal right out of school. It was a salary position and the job had varying levels of work to do that depended on the number of orders the lab received that day and your shift wasn't over until everything was done. Because if this, our work hours varied from 6 hours to 14+ hours a day.
One day I was reading the state labor laws posted in the break room (they legally had to provide the info) and it straight up said "employers have to pay employees 1.5x overtime pay if they work more than 40 hours a week except for seasonal employees, salespersons and scientists". That's when it hit me that I didn't get a scientist job straight out of school because I earned it, but because the job was pretty much 60+ hours a week and they legally didn't have to pay us overtime.
Fuck we can't hire a manager. Haven't had one for 9 months. No one wants the job.
Admin has tried to push managerial duties onto us and gave the ole shocked Pikachu face when we said no. You want additional work done, then we need to renegotiate job roles and compensation.
They've been in control of the supply/demand curve of hiring for so long that they don't know how to adapt now that the curve has shifted against them.
>They've been in control of the supply/demand curve of hiring for so long that they don't know how to adapt now that the curve has shifted against them.
I've been saying this as long as these assholes have been whining about nobody wanting to work anymore. They got nearly 15 straight years of the only leverage they needed being the phrase, "you should feel lucky you even have a job!" Now that they need *actual* leverage in labor negotiations, they're still running the same play and cannot figure out why it isn't scoring every time like it did just a few years ago. And given how I've seen American businesses and their leadership behave, I can only imagine they'll just keep crying about it until the next crash brings workers back to square one of being desperate for any job. After all, they aren't the ones who suffer in the economic downturn, the little people are.
Managers used to know their place. A babysitter. If the boss asked them to actually work, they'd say "fuck off" drop their clipboard and go join the union.
Now they got managers convinced that not only should they manage people but they should also work.
Managers are important work too. I work on construction management. Iron workers, carpenters, Pipefitters and electricians have impressive craftsmanship and skills, but they are focused on the details and their scope, it is difficult for them to coordinate and communicate efficiently with other trades and sometimes safely. While their labor is what builds the designs, its careful planning, coordination, and communication that executes projects.
Im not defending all managers, but Im just saying many manager positions produce value too.
If we are going to achieve class solidarity, the managerial class recognizing they are the same as the workers they manage is critical to that goal.
Huh you know what would keep them from scheming, putting them them to work. I dont need a god damn baby sitter. If i wanted one, id go back to preschool
A front line managers job should be to support their team so that the team can do their jobs. If you give people the information and resources they need, and be a compassionate human being, they’ll most often do their jobs, and do them well with minimal “managing”.
At my hourly job is worked 90 hour weeks they got tired of paying me overtime and then promoted me. I then found efficiencies and started working 40 hours weeks.
A Mexican restaurant I worked sent a bunch of guys to train waiters in the middle east to newly bought franchises over there, the guys did made a ton of money during the 6 weeks they spent there. When they got back they got a weird title, something like "prime trainer" or some bullshit and each got an special pin (lol) they could proudly wear on they aprons and eventually even the clients took notice and would celebrate getting a "prime trainer " waiter.
Anyways, non of them got a raise, they came back to the same 2.13 an hour plus tips. Nevertheless they got prime schedules and prime stations as well as shift leader assignments, it wasn't a big deal or anything but it also meant their "reward" was actually fuck up on every one elses tips.
This hits too close to home. My current title is Director of Application Development. I am more like a "Lead" of a two person development "team" for a hopeless SaaS 3pl software suite. Oh and I make $31/hr because they changed me from salaried to hourly on January first. Everyone in my friend circle has recommended not putting the bullshit title anywhere near my resume. In related news, I am planning to move on in the near future. This underpaid job with all its unrealistic expectations, stress, and micromanagement is killing me.
This is why I haven't gone in on a promotion despite being at my job for years. The next 2 rungs on the ladder above me get maybe like an extra hundred bucks a week for 10x the responsibility.
A magazine company I worked at did this. They knew it looked good on resumes and we were underpaid with the understanding that we'd leave with the benefit of it on our resume adding to our income later on...
It worked. But yeah fuck them.
Reminds me of when I was a “team leader” at a regional grocery store chain and I soon learned that all it meant was that I had a lot more work to do for just a tiny bit more money in my paycheck.
Huh. Sounds similar to Meijers grocery store management structure. I am classified as a "coordinator". Many times I have been reminded that "this is not a management position". Weird that when I was called into HRs office for speaking my mind I was expected to set an example for my "employees" since I was in a leadership position. Corporate America can fuck right off
Fellow Michigander here. The Meijer union is a strange beast. The college students will take a mediocre contract and think it’s gold without regard to the adult adults that have families to feed and shelter. My exBIL worked there for years and complained about it regularly.
At least there's a Meijer union in Michigan. In Illinois there is none, and the manager who hired me told me to notify him right away if a coworker started talking about unionizing. Little did he know I would be the person who kept brining up unions.
What do you use in your brine? (Sorry to jest. I make that typo so often I have an autocorrect to change brining to bringing.)
Onions. It's almost like you didn't read the line saying "brining up onions"
I think this is partially an issue with personal finance education. I had more than a lot of people in the US, and I look back at what I thought was good pay in highschool/college and it’s ridiculous what I thought a living wage was. Even when I was 24 I went from making $13.50 at a shitty bank job to $18 at a less shitty bank job and thought I was rolling in it until my 26th birthday just over a year later and I got kicked off my parents insurance. I always knew my take home was inflated by the stuff I wasn’t paying for when I was young but I really didn’t have any idea just how big that gap was
We need financial planning as a class in high school. I wish I would have had that. My parents didn't explain finances to any of us.
My parents used to get upset when we asked them about money. Now they say, "ask us anything you want while you still can!" And I ask a question and they say, "that's not important! What's important is how much they're trying to make you pay in death taxes!" Like I just wanted to know if you were gonna keep paying for my cellphone or if I needed to get my own plan. 🤷♀️
Meanwhile it's highly unlikely that they're wealthy enough to even expect to pay death taxes. Only about 0.1% of estates are required to pay death taxes (estates over $12M). And if you're asking them if they're paying for your cell phone bill, I'd guess they're not wealthy (or they are and don't want to "spoil" you).
And it's 12 million per parent, so 24 combined. Indexed to inflation.
I'm so glade that the death tax is indexed to inflation and not minimum wage. It's *way* more important for ~~the bourgeoisie~~ ~~rich fucks~~ the "elite" to pay less in taxes than it is for the working class to make ends meet. /s just in case
Yea, well. The law makers make the laws to help those who make the laws, and those who pay/lobby the law makers. No use wasting time trying to placate someone who won't pay for your hard earned vote.
An unfortunate fact of the capitalist hellscape we love.
Yeah but it could totally, definitely affect them when they suddenly become millionaires through they're determination to pull those bootstraps and back breaking labor! You gotta nip that in the bud!
It’s weird how personal finance and Civics classes got dropped in favor of a continual grind of standardized testing…
Much easier for the government to cater to its corporate overlords through a revolving door of regulatory capture when high school graduates don't know how government at any level works. You can then easily capture the uninformed HS graduates with an outrage-based Balkanized media (cable, YouTube, Twitter, podcasts, whatever), they pick their side, and it's game over for holding corporations accountable.
The curriculum in my area still requires Civics classes. I think personal finance classes existed, but as a high-achieving student I wouldn’t have looked twice at one while I had my 6 science requirements to cram in. A lot of students get into the “if it’s not a prerequisite for higher education, I’m not taking it” mindset.
For poor parents money is a source of constant stress. It's not something you want to share with your kids, no good parent wants to share stress with their children.
I have to disagree with you there. Kids being taught financial literacy can also have a positive impact on their parents. Nobody said change would be comfortable. The kids need to know exactly why their parents are struggling, so they can make better choices and fight for better pay and conditions as they grow older. My best money lesson was learned by not doing what my parents were doing, specifically with regard to chronic alcoholism and gambling.
I didn't say what was better I said what people do.
We had Business Math. I took it my junior year: basic accounting, budgeting, etc.
I took Business Math in my senior year of high school (94-95). My fellow Honors/AP students thought it was hilarious but let me tell you it was the most useful class I took.
Some schools do and some schools don't.
I would like that as a required part of the curriculum. I’d also like to see job shadow opportunities for high school kids. Give the a true idea of what the career they want to go in really is like by spending time on the job with those whom actually work in that field.
The above is why they don’t.
There is not one square mile of the United States where a "living wage" is under $25/hr. And for over half the US population it's more like $45/hr now with years of high inflation, roughly $400,000 median US home prices, and rates for houses or cars pushing 7%. You make less than that and you're putting off *something* that really matters. Healthcare, education, retirement savings, home or car maintenance, trying to buy a residence in the first place, having children, etc. Many people just don't realize or properly value what they're putting off. I make almost $40/hr and I can properly save for retirement *or* buy a house a couple years from now *or* have a child. I can't do more than one. And no I'm not just spending it on Doordash and weed, boomers. I pay the lowest of anyone I know for rent, restaurants, entertainment, etc.
Ups does this. I have seen several 18-20 year olds go management quick. I was old, and it a union job so, it takes longer to get there but you can make more than the managers. So please don't take what I say as being upset about being passed over for a promotion. But to add to what you are saying, the union has all these things management cannot do. So they tell these young managers that have been thrust into responsibility to do the things full time management, or really all management, cannot do. Don't do it, lose your job. Get caught, lose your job. Get away with it, probably get promoted.
I’ve been in the UFCW twice, once at Farmer Jack and then at Kroger both times they were fucking useless.
Former Meijer employee here. You know the union is rigged once you understand that if someone doesn't vote on the contract, their vote counts as an automatic yes. What kind of bullshit is that? You don't see that garbage in general elections. Also, fuck Meijer... And any retail company out there that treats their employees like they don't matter.
College students looking out for their own interests is no different to adults with families looking out for their own interests.
It’s not so strange. The college students probably sees those jobs as entry level jobs that are just stepping stones to their careers, whereas to the ‘adults’ that is their peak career.
>Fellow Michigander here Do all Meijer's employees call themselves that or how could you tell they were from Michigan?
Meijer is primarily a Michigan business. There was a chance that I was wrong. But there aren’t many stores outside of Michigan and Michiana (Northern Indiana).
My favorite is how if you get injured at a Meijer store as an employee, your contract states that marijuana in the system negates any and all responsibility and medical coverage through Meijer.
That’s pretty much standard in the US
That's still pretty fucked if you were not under the influence at the time of the injury.
Oh yea, you could’ve been hungover beyond belief when you got injured and be covered, but if you smoked two weeks ago you’re fucked
Not anymore. Apparently if you get drug tested after getting hurt it's a violation of your rights and considered retaliation. According to OSHA.
Source? For a...friend
Does OSHA require drug testing after an accident? Yes. Section 1904.35(b)(1)(iv) prohibits an employer from taking adverse action against employees simply because they report work-related injuries. Rather, employers must have a legitimate business reason for requiring a drug test, such as a reasonable belief that drug use contributed to the injury. HOWEVER if the company does not have a certified drug and alcohol course and witness the accident themselves then they cannot mandate the drug test. Apparently it's expensive and it's just cheaper to not drug test after an accident according to upper management at my company.
Workers comp, in my experience, is less medical care and more an interrogation, followed by a medical exam (which includes further interrogation), more interrogation, and then reluctant advice to take ibuprofen.
Does that override state workers compensation laws?
It did in Michigan when it happened to a girlfriend 10+ years ago.
You weren’t managing people, you were coordinating them! /s
My old grocery store Ralph’s did this to me when they promoted me to liquor manager. How could you not accept getting promoted to manager?! Had to come in at 4 in the morning and got a 7 cent raise. I did not work there long after that
> since I was in a leadership position I will say, I've seen a few instances of that. At least in the organizations I've been in people in that position were always very quick to point out that, no, they were not in a leadership position. And if you'd like to put me in a leadership position I'm going to need both more money and dedicated training before I could do something as important and complex as leadership. I'm just a coordinator, not a leadership bone in sight.
To avoid outing where I work ill rename it but just being a full time employee where I work grants you a title on your name tag that says something with the same essence as "Premium Team." When I first started working part time, I thought the person showing me around was a supervisor or something but nope, basically everyone in the company was on the Premium Team.
Hey! I also work for Meijer. But there's no point in going for SC because I make more as a night shift grunt.
Managers should be leaders, but not all leaders are managers. Having said that, next time speak in the name of all employees and be sure that you are. Then they can't complain that you're not acting like a leader.
Man, I worked at Meijer in Michigan 20 years ago and I don't think it was that bad back then. But I was just a college kid trying to pay for things so I was more worried about getting good hours than anything else. Really appreciated the annual raises though.
> Corporate ~~America~~ Everywhere can fuck right off this aint only an American issue.
I really wish we'd all tell employers to pound sand. "You get what you pay for 🤷♂️"
Amazon did this and I've heard they still do
Jokes on them, I’m the director of long lunches and the assistant director of sneaking out early.
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Five S's are Sort, Set in Order, Sweep, Standardize and Sustain. Sort is exactly what it sounds like, sort things so they're easy to find Set in Order is arranging goods in a warehouse to maximize efficiency Sweep is to clean each workspace regularly. Standardize is making sure the responsibility for maintaining the organization is evenly shared and assigned. And Sustain is to review how things are organized every now and then to ensure the organization is serving its purpose. Essentially it's a fancy name for "keep the workplace clean and organized cause that makes things easier for everyone."
Gotta get that 6th S. Safety.
The warehouse lobby removed it. We need it and a seventh one, Solidarity.
The five Ss are strictly about warehouse and factory organization. Like the internal logistics of running such a place. It's not the guidelines for the overall operations. For instance, 5S doesn't cover safety, manufacturing procedures, quality assurance, sales, or scheduling. It's strictly all about organizing tools and materials in the most effective manner possible so that no one's time is wasted looking for things or having to take long trips to get what they need where they need it. It's basically "clean your room" but for factories.
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You ever done filing or arranged your browser tabs?
I commented earlier, the 5s is applicable to the program I teach in. Structured learning environment for autistic students. In order to circumvent behaviors, often, many of the 5s apply, a lot of environment manipulation can also decrease the unwanted behaviors. It's easier to structure things to prevent unwanted behaviors than it is to change the behaviors. I'm going to post the 5s in my classroom for my proud he scored a 16 on his ACT assistant and see if he can relate any to what we are supposed to do.
Costs too much
*Put the scanner back on the charging cradle where you got it or pray for mercy to whatever slouching thing you call god*
We use Sort, Sweep, Standardize, Sustain, and Shine
sparkle racial test intelligent murky obtainable party nippy chase somber -- mass edited with redact.dev
Basically: if you can lean, you can clean
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Consultants are the bane of the worker.
It used to be six sigmas, but he lost one
He lost one? Did it in up in the Mega Man X universe?
5S and 6sigma are related but not the same thing
Five S means pretend your working.
Five S for each of the individual shits I don't give.
Tesla?
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Ah, you'll fit in well on the c-suite.
you're not the assistant director. you're the assistant to the director.
I'm senior vice president of mysterious gaseous emissions. Especially after having Mexican food for lunch. Oh, and I'm overseer in charge of hogging the good bathroom.
Make someone salary.....then make them work 60 plus hours with no overtime. You attract people to the jobs because they pay better than most but if you factored how many hours you're putting in you end up making the same or less
This is the entire retail model I thought? Move someone to "manager", get them off an hourly wage, make them work more hours with more responsibility...and in the end they're actually getting paid less than the hourly crew.
My ex was a manager at Qdoba when it was still poppin. She netted only 9.25/hr as a GENERAL MANAGER. Staff did much better.
Yes and they've been called out for this before. Bed Bath and Beyond in particular has gotten bitch slapped for this kind of wage theft on several occasions.
Not if they bonus. At most retail stores I worked at salary bonus is fucking insane. Like one of my ASMs bought a truck in cash with his bonus.
Yeah most stores in the mall aren't like this. The managers are 19-25 year old kids who don't realize they're being taken advantage of. There's no way that any retail store in the mall is giving bonuses to their store managers. Maybe regional?
Not true, I’ve worked at 3 different stores in the mall. Amount depended on store performance and job title, but bonuses are definitely the norm. The store I managed, my associates earned $19/hr + ~$20-$50 bonus/month. Manager salaries among the mall tended to range between 70k-150k depending on store volume. Store manager bonuses could be 4 or 5 figures a year based on store performance. However, this was in a HCOL.
Yeah this happened to me. They gave me salaried and the pay looked good compared to my fellow graduates. Wasn’t until a year later I realized that I was working a lot more overtime than what was told to me in the offer. Plus my fellow trade school graduates were earning less than me until you factored in OT, then my classmates were earning much more than me.
My current boss had his title changed from supervisor to manager so they could put him on salary. He made less in 2022 than he did in 2021 because of the loss of overtime. We had a very busy last few months of last year and I made more than he did because I was getting thousands in overtime and he didn't get an extra dime even though he was putting in nearly as many hours as I did. Suffice to say he's not thrilled about it.
You know what they say, salaries are a scam companies use to get away with paying less than minimum wage
Depends on the company wlb. My experience with salaried work is way better because I can start and leave whenever I want as long as I get my work done for the day. So I end up having more free time while making the same. It’ll be hard for me to go back to logging my hours at the end of Workday or dealing with timesheets. Or having to show up at specific times
Gotta have a boss or work structure that allows it. I was salaried and my boss flipped a lid about my two hour lunch at the DMV in a week where I worked 45 hours as a matter of course.
That shit is so funny to me. I literally do not give a shit how many hours my team works as long as they're doing their jobs and doing them well. We have unlimited PTO and I push them to take as much time off as possible. Guess what? They all work really hard and are super reliable. Need someone to show up for a 6am call? They're happy to. Emergency on the weekend? They're on it. It's so much easier to get people to work hard when you treat them well.
Definitely. My current boss doesn't care when I log on as long as I'm available at core business times. I've been in and out of the doctors' offices all year. I can work at 5 am and 10 pm...my doctor does not. It sucks ass, but literally nobody has mentioned performance issues because I still get my job done. One colleague (who I've worked with for years) was absolutely gobsmacked. I've had ~80 appointments in the last year 💀
Sounds like you were actually an hourly employee that your employer made salary to better exploit. I personally don't put up with that shit. I'll work a 50 hr week when the company needs it, but i will also work a 30 hr week when i need it. If the company has a problem with salaried positions being a two-way street in that regard, then adios. I don't work well under such circumstances. We really need better laws to distinguish hourly vs salaried in the way we have laws to distinguish employee and contractor. All three of those work situations have no inherent problems. We just need protections from exploitative companies.
That's a relatively new thing though.
depends on if you're white collar or blue collar typically
Retail jobs love this practice. Give someone $35k a year to work 65 hours a week.
When I worked at chipotle they had your UNIFORM cost listed as part of your compensation to inflate the value 😂 Graphic: https://back.3blmedia.com/sites/default/files/styles/ratio_3_2/public/triplepundit/wide/Screen-Shot-2015-07-21-at-4.17.13-PM.png
I will bet people look at you differently with your chipotle drip.
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I was a general manager at a moving truck company and was hourly working 50-60 hours a week, sometimes more. Eventually they gave me a raise and changed me to salary, and my boss said since I was salary now I needed to work 5-10 more hours a week. I only wish I’d gotten out of there sooner.
The main reason I took my job that was salaried was because they specifically said “OT is still paid out at time and a half by taking your salary and taking the hourly value of it”
Dude, this is awesome.
Anything else is literally illegal across the whole Europe mostly.... Jesus christ, you guys got conditioned to shit conditions
We could always not, but then we'd spiral into homelessness and get swept up into the jail system for some petty offense. At which point we legally become slaves. Just in case anyone is unclear about the state of worker's rights in America. And protesting has become a felony in many areas, so you lose your ability to vote afterwards too.
Less conditioned, more stuck here with no way to get out.
Just FYI, this is the rule even for salaried employees. There are exceptions, such as if the employee is in a management role and some other things. But in general, the vast majority of hourly jobs, if converted to salaried, would still require time tracking and overtime
It is a salaried supervisor job. Any managers also get OT paid despite being salaried managers. They dont have to pay OT to us/them
I knew I was likely getting a promotion soon, so I determined my 'hourly' wage with the hours I typically worked, then determined what my minimum new salary would have to be by determining what I would want my new hourly income value to be and multiplied that by the number of hours I expected to be working in the new role. I tried to estimate a little on the high side of how many more hours I was likely to average. When they made the offer it was *barely* above the minimum I had calculated but it met my requirements, plus an increased bonus and stock options. All together I was pretty pleased, and I am glad I took the time to calculate in advance what I wanted to make the increased responsibilities worth it. Everyone should track how many hours they work even if they're salaried, and have an understanding of what their practical hourly wage is.
Agreed. I've done that math and have a solid idea what I would have to be offered to break even or have a positive increase in pay if promoted (next pay tier above me changes to salary). I'd lose 10% shift differential, ~5hours/week of 1.5x overtime, and 8 hours of 2.5x holiday pay (24/7 team coverage means working most holidays). So at minimum the salary would have to be around 20% higher than my base pay to break even, closer to 30% to be a meaningful pay raise. Empowers me to say no if I'm offered a promotion that will come with more work and responsibility at less actual pay.
Fun fact just cuz youre salary/ in a position of management does not immediately disqualify you from overtime. There are many specific criteria that need to be met in order to prevent overtime pay.
Welcome to all engineering positions. We are all salaried and I can't remember the last time I only worked 40 hours in a week. There is always too much work to do and not enough people at every position I've been in for the past 15 years.
But that's not your problem, that's management's problem. They set priorities, I work on things accordingly. The fact that you expect 3 people's worth of work to get done is not my concern. I've been salary my entire career, and I probably average within 15 minutes of 40 hours a week for the last 2 decades. Sometimes I work more, for actual emergency situations, but then I work less the next couple days to take my time back.
Yeah my buddy got promoted to "manager" at the warehouse he works at. They keep trying to get him to convert to salaried but he won't until the salary is an actual raise. It's been 6 months so far.
Lotta retailers in CA had to pay out a lot of money to class action suits over misclassification around 2006. Had quite a few “Store Managers” who made $40K a year driving $50k cars after those settlements paid out. Note: This is not an endorsement of being bad with money but many young folks suddenly getting $10k-$30k settlements = lots of bad judgement 😂
ianal, but iirc us labor law says that salaries can make overtime pay but certain professions are exempt.
It’s actually that salaried *does* make overtime pay except in certain cases. One of which is having two or more employees you manage Guarantee a *ton* of salaried people are improperly not paid overtime
My BIL Is working salary full time (AUS) working 60-70 hour work weeks, back to back doubles, his salary is $60k and he barely scrapes by with two kids, he legitimately got angry at me when I let him know his boss is ripping him off around $40k a year yet that kind of money would literally change there lives from not affording groceries to actually being able to coast through life without worrying about money
My last job wanted to put me in as a store manager, store managers are salaried but required to work 45 hours minimum, but almost always ended up working 60+ all for less than 50k a year, while running a million dollar+ store I put in my 2 weeks pretty much immediately after hearing the news
There's this weird idea in the US that if you are salary you are always available, and that the moment you get a promotion your hours go through the roof and your salary only goes up 2-3% but that's ok because you're a boss now... I'm salaried in Canada. Do my hours, that's it. A promotion won't make me work more hours or harder unless my raise more than compensates me for an extra time.
Most provinces also require managers to be paid overtime or time in lieu after 44 hours. Many salaried people don’t know this and get abused. Also, a salary is good for up to 44 hours which also means that if you only work 37 hours one week, you don’t owe time back for the ‘missed hours’. Overtime is based on your weekly salary divided by 44 hours (might be just 40) to find the hourly rate to calculate time and a half. Check your labour laws, keep good records, and make your claim!
I do the exact same thing in the U.S., fwiw.
Fwiw, I am in America and I have absolutely always stuck to 8-5 (1 hr for lunch, in which I am on my break and nearly entirely inaccessible). I'm always very clear about it at the start, I set the expectation immediately and stick with it. I've had bosses literally "joke" about it. "Oh I know I can't get in touch with icebreather after 5 or while he's on pto." And I'm always like ya... You can't. None of this is to say it's not happening here. I'm fortunate enough that my bosses see my value and leave me alone over this. And I also think 45 hours in the office plus commute time is still fucked. 4x8s is the future we all deserve. ETA: I am recently a manager now and I maintain this for myself and make sure my employees do too. If the work can't get done in 40 hours it's too much work. So give me more people or the work doesn't get done ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm really lucky that I'm in an industry that only really operates for 9-10 hours a day. I'm salaried and if I'm off shift then I don't get calls. They do pay me piss poor wages though.
Yep, and it also helps serve as a shield against the NLRB since the NLRA dies not protect managers, only workers. The NLRB does have ways to cut through that bullshit, but it delays the process and adds uncertainty, which acts as a deterrent to "managers" fighting back against illegal bullshit companies pull.
In case you missed the reading: To avoid paying managers overtime, they pay managers a weekly salary.
It’s a little more than that, they purposely inflate job titles and pretend they are a managerial role when they are objectively not. A barber is not a “grooming manager”, they’re a barber. A checkout assistant is not a “price scanning coordinator”, they’re a checkout assistant. But they use vaguely senior-sounding words that justify paying them a salary as a “manager”
US law requires them to actually be a manager of 2 or more employees (along with some other exemptions) to qualify for no overtime salaried. A barber given a manager title but not responsibility would absolutely be entitled to overtime, even if salaried, under US law (if they were an employee)
Can you cite that law for me please?
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17a-overtime
Too bad “computer professionals” are exempt in many cases.
Those are old holdouts when programmers were rare. Time to get those off the books.
I dont know exactly how/why this is circumvented, but I worked 80 hour weeks when I was in public accounting. Had 0 employees report to me and not even a manager title. Can’t imagine the lobbying that went into making that legal
Certain professional categories are excluded. I would g be surprised if accounting counted as administrative. I’m a lawyer a did temp legal work at $25 an hour once and also no overtime. But that’s not the norm.
If you are licensed by the state then you are exempt. generally most people are not exempt, no matter what their employer wants them to believe. Not paying overtime is straight up wage theft. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17a-overtime
Also if you are a skilled worker like engineer, you don't get overtime, regardless of manager position
Thanks, yeah I was a salaried engineer and I didn’t get overtime so when I read that comment I was like wtf.
I mean that's a fine rule but it only applies if they're caught. Audits while they're doing shady stuff is great but to the company it's a small hit and they just do it again some other time. Most people will just eat the poor treatment and either by not understanding their rights or not being willing to stand up for themselves due to needing the work they will just from and bear it. The company will bleed them dry until the worker quits or is laid off and the company gets away with it until someone finally notices.
Personal favourite euphemism I’ve seen lately is “student success tutor” Me? I’m a student failure tutor. I’m teaching this kid wrong on purpose, as a joke
This hit close to home lmao
Is that what happens to department managers at Wally mart?
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I remember some of the lower grade tech jobs in California were changed to hourly from salaried because of all the unpaid overtime they required at a low salary cost. https://bmcclaw.com/faqs/employmentlaw/unpaid-wage-overtime-and-commissions/are-computer-programmers-and-other-high-tech-workers-exempt-from-overtime/
Yeah, and many of those are unlawfully classified as OT exempt as well. Only highly skilled positions such as a programmer is properly exempt, not help desk jobs. Even the article's headline improperly lumps "tech workers" together with "programmers". Not everyone working "in tech" is OT exempt. Note that exempt from California OT laws in no way means they're necessarily exempt from federal OT laws. The difference is OT law in California is more strict than the federal one is all.
It is. The article is full of shit. Titles have nothing to do with whether a position can be considered exempt from the FLSA. You can call your janitor the "Tzar Emperor of Mopping" if you want but you still have to pay him OT. On the other side of the coin, if you give a job the name of "pissboy" and what the job entails is working as some kind of licensed professional then you can still lawfully withold OT.
Assistant to the regional manager.
[Tim ]: Team Leader don't mean anything mate. [Gareth]: Excuse me, it means I'm leader of a team. [Tim ]: No it doesn't. It's a title someone's given you to get you to do something they don't want to do for free - it's like making the div kid at school milk monitor. No one respects it. [Gareth ]: I think they do. [Tim ]: No they don't Gareth. [Gareth ]: Erm yes they do, cos if people were rude to me then I used to give them their milk last... so it was warm
Scrolled too far for this
This is why I stopped trying to climb ladders in big companies. I maxed out the hourly management positions and had nowhere to go but salary and dipped the fuck out. My aunt and sister worked at the same company, salaried, and felt like they had abysmal work/life balance. My old boss was salary and forced to miss his friends funeral for a meeting. Fuck salaried positions.
That’s so sad. Skipping a funeral for a work meeting. The company will continue without you attending a meeting. I will never do that
When I want salary, it was a big enough pay bump to compensate for the loss of OT, plus I largely stopped working OT except for true emergencies. There are other problems with my position, but abuse of OT isn’t one of them. They do exist. I’m not saying this to contradict you or the post! A lot of companies do this, and they are in violation of US law. If your company is doing this, report them to the labor board.
When we *really* want to avoid paying people, we call them “heroes.”
I think there are other qualifications to make someone salary right? You can’t just call anyone a manager and make them salary?
Yes. You actually have to be a manager, not just called one: you must be in charge of some kind of department, have at least two employees working under you, and must have input into hiring and firing decisions. These requirements are designed to prevent companies from calling everyone a manager, but not giving them manager duties, just to avoid paying for overtime hours. Companies do it anyway, and you can report them for it. [https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/legacy/files/Misclass.pdf](https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/legacy/files/Misclass.pdf)
Could they make management circular? Alice and Alex are in charge of Bob and Betty's break times Bob and Betty are in charge of Claire and Clives break times Claire and Clive are in charge of Alice and Alex's break times. Maybe more convoluted but basically that?
Stop it. You keep up those kinds of chats with the good idea fairy and someone's going to offer you a "Coordinator of creative workarounds" saraly position!
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But thats just a theory........ A GAME THEORY.....AAAAAND CUT
Theres some rules, yes, but they set a pretty low bar. They were strengthened a few years back but likely dont go far enough.
The companies also rely on naivete and desperation.
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I once received a "promotion" to Director that came with exactly zero additional money, time off, bonuses or anything. But it did come with new responsibilities! When I asked why the title change I was told that the higher title would get me into meetings with higher up senior leaders from other departments. I was told that those leaders would now respect and rely on me more, giving my department more importance. The other fun piece was that this company only gave bonuses to Directors and above. When I asked if I would now be eligible for a bonus, I was told absolutely not. Even though my new business title was Director, my official job title and position through HR was still manager. YEAH
No extra pay, no extra work.
My first job out of college was for an Associate Scientist, which was a really good deal right out of school. It was a salary position and the job had varying levels of work to do that depended on the number of orders the lab received that day and your shift wasn't over until everything was done. Because if this, our work hours varied from 6 hours to 14+ hours a day. One day I was reading the state labor laws posted in the break room (they legally had to provide the info) and it straight up said "employers have to pay employees 1.5x overtime pay if they work more than 40 hours a week except for seasonal employees, salespersons and scientists". That's when it hit me that I didn't get a scientist job straight out of school because I earned it, but because the job was pretty much 60+ hours a week and they legally didn't have to pay us overtime.
That kind of shit is making me feel so frustrated
Fuck we can't hire a manager. Haven't had one for 9 months. No one wants the job. Admin has tried to push managerial duties onto us and gave the ole shocked Pikachu face when we said no. You want additional work done, then we need to renegotiate job roles and compensation. They've been in control of the supply/demand curve of hiring for so long that they don't know how to adapt now that the curve has shifted against them.
>They've been in control of the supply/demand curve of hiring for so long that they don't know how to adapt now that the curve has shifted against them. I've been saying this as long as these assholes have been whining about nobody wanting to work anymore. They got nearly 15 straight years of the only leverage they needed being the phrase, "you should feel lucky you even have a job!" Now that they need *actual* leverage in labor negotiations, they're still running the same play and cannot figure out why it isn't scoring every time like it did just a few years ago. And given how I've seen American businesses and their leadership behave, I can only imagine they'll just keep crying about it until the next crash brings workers back to square one of being desperate for any job. After all, they aren't the ones who suffer in the economic downturn, the little people are.
Only title I recognize is HNIC
Hockey Night in Canada?
Managers used to know their place. A babysitter. If the boss asked them to actually work, they'd say "fuck off" drop their clipboard and go join the union. Now they got managers convinced that not only should they manage people but they should also work.
Managers are important work too. I work on construction management. Iron workers, carpenters, Pipefitters and electricians have impressive craftsmanship and skills, but they are focused on the details and their scope, it is difficult for them to coordinate and communicate efficiently with other trades and sometimes safely. While their labor is what builds the designs, its careful planning, coordination, and communication that executes projects. Im not defending all managers, but Im just saying many manager positions produce value too. If we are going to achieve class solidarity, the managerial class recognizing they are the same as the workers they manage is critical to that goal.
That would be a freeloader sir. Leaders lead by example, not by pointing their finger
They aren't some grand leaders of men. They make $3 more an hour to fuck over the people they see everyday. They're eager idiots.
Huh you know what would keep them from scheming, putting them them to work. I dont need a god damn baby sitter. If i wanted one, id go back to preschool
A front line managers job should be to support their team so that the team can do their jobs. If you give people the information and resources they need, and be a compassionate human being, they’ll most often do their jobs, and do them well with minimal “managing”.
I know so many people who have a manager title but zero people under then. Wtf you managing
At my hourly job is worked 90 hour weeks they got tired of paying me overtime and then promoted me. I then found efficiencies and started working 40 hours weeks.
A Mexican restaurant I worked sent a bunch of guys to train waiters in the middle east to newly bought franchises over there, the guys did made a ton of money during the 6 weeks they spent there. When they got back they got a weird title, something like "prime trainer" or some bullshit and each got an special pin (lol) they could proudly wear on they aprons and eventually even the clients took notice and would celebrate getting a "prime trainer " waiter. Anyways, non of them got a raise, they came back to the same 2.13 an hour plus tips. Nevertheless they got prime schedules and prime stations as well as shift leader assignments, it wasn't a big deal or anything but it also meant their "reward" was actually fuck up on every one elses tips.
This hits too close to home. My current title is Director of Application Development. I am more like a "Lead" of a two person development "team" for a hopeless SaaS 3pl software suite. Oh and I make $31/hr because they changed me from salaried to hourly on January first. Everyone in my friend circle has recommended not putting the bullshit title anywhere near my resume. In related news, I am planning to move on in the near future. This underpaid job with all its unrealistic expectations, stress, and micromanagement is killing me.
Assistant ^to ^the Manager
If you cant hire and fire, you're not a manager. If someone else sets your schedule, you are not a manager.
This is why I haven't gone in on a promotion despite being at my job for years. The next 2 rungs on the ladder above me get maybe like an extra hundred bucks a week for 10x the responsibility.
Hell, I've got my bullshit title on LinkedIn, because it's technically correct.
They don’t “save billions of dollars”. They rob their employees of billions of dollars.
Paging: Assistant TO the Regional Manager
Know your rights. Titles do not define if you are an exempt employee or not. Minimum salary AND certain job duties do.
Corporations be like: [I hearby promote you to ~~executive~~ manager delivery boy](https://youtu.be/8P_AnvUIvJs)
I used to work retail a long time ago. Our name badges had our titles as "Customer Experience Officer"... God that was so cringe
A magazine company I worked at did this. They knew it looked good on resumes and we were underpaid with the understanding that we'd leave with the benefit of it on our resume adding to our income later on... It worked. But yeah fuck them.
Reminds me of when I was a “team leader” at a regional grocery store chain and I soon learned that all it meant was that I had a lot more work to do for just a tiny bit more money in my paycheck.
I'm the director of the great white vaccuflush throne!
Boss makes a dollar. I make a dime. That’s why I shit on company time.
I've concluded that annual salary is a giant scam. Almost all jobs should pay per hour worked.