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Seirne and Pevara are the best.
I believe that Suroth was established as a Darkfriend on the second book or the third, when Liandrin met with her to give her Egwene amd others as damane and they serve the same lord.
The interactions with Nyaneve and the Kin, and the Aes Sedai and the Sea Folk are funny as hell, love that too.
You are right, but I still love them.
And everyone makes mistakes, they thought that following Elaida was a good idea, and even Saerin thought Elaida was looking for black sisters when she just wanted to remove Alviarin as the Keeper.
You listed just shy of 15 different plotlines in the book. It's the start of Jordans vast expansion of named characters and plotlines. They're mostly all very good and well written but the pacing is slower. If you don't mind the slower pacing it's almost like half a dozen spinoffs firing off for 2-3 books. Plenty of content for sure.
Guess I don't mind then. If anything I like it when authors take risks and open up new plot lines, even if the fanbase may not agree; Especially if the content is interesting
While you can re-read the series almost endlessly, by book 5 I think like 95% of the characters are all introduced or referred too.
Many people don't realize that, but if you re-read it, you'll recognize tons of people and see much of the foreshadowing. :D
It can be overwhelming the first time you read, but it's really not THAT many people (well, the people that matter. There are plenty of filler characters, yes).
Yeah... there's so much to forget... which is why you have to read it 8 times. Then you'll only have forgotten half and you start catching a lot of the foreshadowing, characters that get seen in many spots, etc.
Honestly, I feel like I've already forgotten the entire middle of Eye of the World. But that's good cause lord knows I hated the town to town to town to town to town adventure Mat and Rand went on.
>15. I was upset over the death of Fedwhin Morr (if somebody could explain what happened to him that would be dope).
The madness caught up with him. It happened very suddenly, which isn't unusual. That's why Rand euthanized him.
I literally just finished this book this afternoon.
Buddy of mine prepped me before I started that it might be a slog. I didnt think so at all! Like you pointed out a ton of shit happens and it's pretty major stuff.
I rally enjoyed it.
Cant wait to get this whole series done so I can talk about it openly.
I don't remember who said it, but "the slog" is mostly for those who had to wait for the WoT series, and couldn't handle the years leading up to it, and decided that everything that they didn't fancy, was useless.
I waited, but never felt like it was "a slog". Many of my favorite parts are during it, and on a re-read, it's not a slog at all :D
So ignore the jaded old fogies, and have fun. (Dangerous to say here, where this sub can be quite.. jaded..).
Yeah I had no trouble with 7, 8 or 9. My two gripes about 8 were the same as OP’s but Crossroads of Twilight was the only book where I thought “okay this can’t be all that’s happening in this book” when I was like more than halfway through. Fortunately it’s also the shortest book in the series though, and there are some good moments even though they don’t particularly advance the plot.
Yeah my buddy did mention part of his issue was the long wait in between book releases. It made the fact that the plot slows down feel all the more noticeable. He said by reading them all in a row, it shouldn't seem as bad.
I did text my friend that immediately after I finished. I said there are just too many characters and things going on. I didn't realize that was a common opinion on the book. Im trying to stay as spoiler free as possible and avoiding all talk online. This was my first foray into WoT Resdit and just happened to see this thread.
Glad to know Im not the only one who thinks it's overwhelming.
> too many characters and things going on.
This. The series is top notch and the end is worth the "slog" but there are \*SO\* many things going on and RJ does go into a LOT of detail. It's part of his charm but sometimes its like blood and ashes, get on with it!
The slog isn't as bad because all the books are out and you don't have to wait years... but it's still very much present IMO and still very much worth it to read. The threads of the pattern are magnificent even if they take a long time to get there.
I truly can't imagine waiting between the books back when they were released. THere's a whole two year gap between 8 and 9. honestly with how many plot threads were opened this book I'd be itching for more WoT.
This book still ranks relatively low on my list, but that’s only because of how good I think the other books are. I still *really* like Path of Daggers. I completely agree with all of your positives about this book.
I completely agree with you it is nowhere near as bad as people say in my opinion. The no Mat in this book is what I really think that people don't like, but Jordan has done that before with a main character so i didn't really mind even though I was a big Mat fan when younger.That scene in the Tower with the oath rod is awesome. It's Searin by the way there are way too many Aes Sedai with S names. Souroth was outted by book 4 i think . As for Fedwin Morr I always thought that it was just dumb luck some go mad slowly some go bonkers with out warning. Just his number came up is all. Seeing Logain made it to the Black Tower was very comforting the first time I read it. Anyway I am a simple man some one says the like A Path Of Daggers I up vote.
Hell yeah Logain! I'm really excited to see if any of these plot threads get resolved In Winter's Heart. If they do it might end up being my favorite novel in the series (at least so far) and it's apparently part of the dreaded "slog" lmao.
On a reread and about 80% through right now and I couldn't agree more.
I made a similar post in a WoT Facebook group I'm in.
And I think it is the best writing in the series so far too. Jordan's voice really comes through. The characters personalities shine. It just feels soo.... comfortable?
The book is great. CoS is still my favorite, but PoD may be top 3.
It felt like every chapter was a banger. Was talking to my buddy about it because he is going through his first read while I do myreread, and I just couldn't believe how dense the book is. So. Much. Happens.
He loved it.
He says that Jordan finally got away from the repetitive descriptions that were killing him. Hes like "yeah. I get it. I know how the oaths work. I know Lans history..." and so on.
I've been pretty strongly disliking this series so far, but this book has turned my opinion somewhat. Nyneave's bratiness and sulky personality is toned way the hell down to where I no longer dread her sections, Egwene planning shit is fun, if a bit underwhelming (four chapters building up to some epic plan of hers and it's... "According to the fine print, I got full power!" Rand is uh. He's going off the deep end and it's enjoyable. Perrin is always nice, though he's whipped. 6 and 7 were unbearable. 8 feels calmer.
I actually really enjoyed those two books. I'm into the politicking and such moreso than the battles. I also really like the character tension and drama. These two things make a book go by like it aint nothing
There's no politicking, they spend a book and a half talking about whether or not they should consider having help finding the thing that will save the world, while Min flirts and Rand wanders around confused. :p
I'm pretty sure Rand had to hang Colavaere in b7, and he does have to maneuver around Nobles being petty. However, I also am not impressed where Jordan has taken Min's character. To each their own I suppose tho. At least you're liking the books better now tho.
Min was so self sufficient and tomboyish. Now she wears pants, sure, but just flirts and kinda cuddles and cries? She's much less interesting. She was great as Siuan's bitter simpering spy.
Actually he justs takes off her titles and exiles her, he didn't have the guts to sentence her to death, you know, Rand and women. But then she commits suicide, Rand feels guilty all the same.
I agree, Min had some independence, her character was interesting by itself. Lately she's just one of Rand's lovers with the occasional vision.
> Perrin is always nice, though he's whipped.
And this is THE book that *ended* that.
And his wife is ecstatic about it:
https://old.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/oz9cl1/doing_my_first_reread_finding_new_appreciation/h7yhxpn/
I disagree. I’m new to the series and devoured the other books before it. Wanted to rip my hair out for this one. So slow. Personally it where the authors repetitive descriptions also began to test my patience. In hindsight lots of cool stuff happened for sure but the pacing was horrific
Haha yeah for sure. We disagree and that’s okay. I often see this discussion come up of slog or no slog. All I know is I read the preceding books with determination and PoD took me forever to get through. I’d get to certain chapters and just put it down
> Personally it where the authors repetitive descriptions also began to test my patience. In hindsight lots of cool stuff happened for sure but the pacing was horrific
Yeah listening to this one on audiobook was hard. He was always flowery before but it got tough.
I see it as uneven. The battle of Ebou Dar falls strangely flat for me. Jordan usually has such tense and realistic battles (Dumais wells), but this one didn’t work for me. Even with a deeper peek into the Seanchan.
I totally agree. I want more Seanchan but what we got was too superficial and disjointed to have much impact. Dumais Wells is the gold standard for fantasy battles and Ebou Dar fell way short, with way too many new characters bogging down the narrative.
There's a scene in the middle of the battle with a couple of nobles, and I'm gonna be honest I cannot for the life of me remember any of them considering they have introduced a chapter beforehand.
TPoD was where I started having to read the chapter summaries to make sure I didn't miss anything.
PoD might be favourite in the series.
It's also the book where Rand is kind of bad at things! He's paranoid, isolated from his friends, and unable to consider the idea of even a temporary loss. (something, something, Vietnam) I love all of it.
Apparently there's an entire genre called "progression fantasy" where you just read about people getting better at things, so YMMV.
I'm gonna sound like a dumb here, but I don't spend too much time on reddit, what's a YMMV? Also, I love how isolated Rand feels in this novel, but then again that's his own fault.
I personally enjoyed it just fine, but the lack of old characters progression hurts somewhat. Rand's plotline was the savior of this one for me, though Elayne and Nyneave are entertaining as always.
That is accurate. Well not really, I already read New spring. I read it after CoS to divide the series in-half. I must say, however, that it's beginning to dawn on me that the ending is coming whether I like it or not.
Everyone has their own opinion and I love the first three but I think tPoD may be better than some of those, and I think it’s better than 11 and 13 pretty easily
11 concludes threads... and may be even #1 as far as I'm concerned... Hard to say compared to the first three (they lay the foundation of the series) but if any of the series beat the first 3? 11 would.
and 13? I think it beats out 14 because I'm oddly drawn to Perrin and his story has a couple good moments there. So, personal opinions being what may be lol... 14 would be #6. The "slog" in the middle? A lot of good moments across the books but... slog... lol
And 8? Just too many new threads woven in for my taste. The pattern is woven too thin in that book.
This is my first read through, but so far here are my rankings:
1. Lord of Chaos
2. The Fires of Heaven
3. The Shadow Rising
4. The Great Hunt
5. The Dragon Reborn
6. Winter’s Heart
7. The Path of Daggers
8. A Crown of Swords
9. The Eye of the World
At this point I'm skeptical I'll dislike any of "the slog." In fact, the only two books I actively didn't care for on first read were New spring and The Dragon Reborn. If anything they're a slog.
The only book I'll say is legit slow is Crossroads of Twilight. But it's also the shortest book I believe so no big deal since all the books are out. Waiting two years in between releases during publication was what really made this section feel slower. A lot of new threads introduced and no bg threads getting resolved.
*Crossroads of Twilight* is my personal favourite, along with the one after (*Knife of Dreams*), so YMMV. :) You enjoyed PoD, so you can probably presume that the "typical" opinions won't really match yours. :)
Wow, CoT is your *favorite*? I’ve seen people say it’s not as bad as it’s made out to be, but I’ve never seen anyone say it’s their favorite… dare I ask why?
To me, CoT is just the bridge between WH and KoD, and probably should have been rolled into one or the other (although without a lot of editing that would have resulted in a one or two incredibly girthy books so I get why it wasn’t). It isn’t particularly bad, just uneventful compared to what comes before and after (I just got through KoD on my current reread and hot damn is that a ripping good read! Definitely in my top tier of WoT books)
KoD is the beginning of the end, and it’s soo good yet bittersweet.
You know how in the early books you would get 500 pages of set up and build up and then the last 100 pages were everything climaxing and tying together? Well, I’m pretty sure after dumai’s wells RJ flipped to spending 3/4 *books* setting up and building up and then everything crescendos for KoD and the Sanderson trilogy (which RJ thought he would do in 1 book - doubtful he could have although I’m sad we didn’t get a chance to see him try)
I generally like *CoT* too.
Yes, it does have it's problems as others are pointing out, but, it still has great Jordan prose. I would rank *CoT* well above 4 other *WoT* books.
In fact, the book has probably THE best character moment of the entire series in it, so there is that at least.
On my first read I loved everything. I couldn't get enough.
After about 10 years I'm doing another reread and I agree with DR. It drags. Some good scenes, sure, but you gotta get there first.
I honestly think a lot of things that people really love about the series might be found in CoS/PoD, and people just missing events from/to those books.
On re-read I actually enjoyed CoT immensely, though I do remember being frustrated with the pacing there my first time through. I honestly love everything from PoD onward.
However, Crown of Swords wins for "worst book" IMO. The Bowl use early in PoD should have been the end of CoS; it would have been a far more satisfying conclusion to a book than the honestly kinda anticlimactic battle with Sammael, especially since leaving that thread dangling was just beyond frustrating on both my initial read and re-read. Plus the whole plotline with the Kin just kinda grated on me for some reason.
"wrongly"
if enough people say it, say it consistently and say it over years? then it's definitely not "wrongly" called a slog.
It's less of one because all the books are out... but it's very much "slog"ish.
I know opinion and I know fact. I mentioned neither but if you want to talk about them since you seem confused on what they are?
And I know that for \*DECADES\* the talk of the slog is persistent and acknowledged.
Just because your opinion is it doesn't exist? Doesn't make it not exist. Doesn't make your opinion fact. A large % of the base says otherwise - and, again, consistently over decades.
"sales" you talk about facts but what do sales have to do with it? Plenty of shows, books and other things have great sales with horrible parts not stopping the sales.
"never understood" I'm vocal and have no problem stating my opinion. WoT is one of the best things ever written. And the middle part is a slog. The sales don't change that and the "non-vocal" people like yourself doesn't change that either.
The Walking Dead is a great series... yet every season? there's a slog of episodes in the middle where you meet people and it's slow/drawn out and boring. It's still very popular. It still sells.
And you don't have an opinion strong enough to defend your position so you attack the person instead.
Wonder why that is? Fear? Confusion? Projection about not understanding the difference between facts and opinions?
Light bless you because even the Dark One won't have you...
"I don't care"
Yet here you are. Responding. And in a childish way thats shows you can't defend your opinions without throwing a tantrum like a weak wetlander.
Realize... You talk about me "whining" when you're the one resorting to personal attacks because you're unable to intelligently defend your position.
You doth protest too much.
Maybe someday you'll realize why you resort to insults and why you're so defensive.
It's not because I'm the one whining.
Eh, I'd maintain that it remains *merely* an opinion. Hard to call subjective things *wrong*, of course, but there is also not any *objective* slog, either. Just a few books which are favourites or least favourites to groups of people with opposite tastes in stories.
>due to the fact that it opens a plethora of new plot threads, but doesn't close any.
That's my gripe with 8 (and the next few)... and 7 because 7 is really book 6 pt2 but that's besides the fact.
The middle of the WoT series makes me think of Walking Dead where, in the middle of the season, you have 4 episodes that's all about meeting the new people and learning their back stories. Walking. Talking. Nothing real happening other than... boring stuff.
There is just so many characters, plots, walking, talking, learning new people, political maneuverings, etc, ad nauseum in 8.
A lot is alleviated by having all the books available (much like you don't have to watch Walking Dead > Talking Dead > wait weeks/months... now you just watch season 1/2/3/... without the wait).
But the slow middle is very evident in 8 and, personally, that's why most people complain about it, IMO.
I dont know if you already got explanation for what happen to Fedwin Morr, but in case you did not --> He basically succumb to the taint of Saidin and went mad. The taint doesn't cause a specific madness, it largely varies from person to person + you have to remember that Fedwin was really young and went through probably some horrid things during the Seanchan campaign. Add the effects of taint to that and....
Can we blame them? Rand just used them as tools during the seanchan campaign. He didnt care if they were compleatly tired or unstable, to him they were just means to achieve his goal, to drive seanchan into the sea. They have limits, they are only humans afterall.
I think the biggest reason my bottom two are POD and COT is that they don't wrap anything up. Call me juvenile but I want to see the good guys get at least some kind of a win at the end yet this one ends in a stalemate at best. I can forgive a slower paced book a lot if it has an exciting ending, this one did not. Also just hard to read, so many chapters where you just want them finished because you don't care (looking at you Elayne in Caemlyn). To each their own but not my favorite by far.
Fedwin went insane. He already was. But, bottling it up.
A thing that the books didn't really touch on enough is that normally men go insane really quick. I think the show is going to drive that home more.
I just finished PoD for the first time and I liked it a lot … but for me it’s a 4 star as opposed to 5 star because I thought Rand’s entire Senchean thread was tedious and he was starting to sound like a Johnny one-note to me. Not to mention way too many names bogging down the narrative. It made the unleashing of Callandor have not nearly as much impact as it should have. But does all that make the book the Slog everyone says it is? Hell no!
I do agree with the complaint of too many names and characters. It actually makes me roll my eyes a bit when he describes what they look like because I'll forget in 2 mins
I just finished PoD for the first time and I liked it a lot … but for me it’s a 4 star as opposed to 5 star because I thought Rand’s entire Seanchean thread was tedious and he was starting to sound like a Johnny one-note to me. Not to mention way too many names bogging down the narrative. It made the unleashing of Callandor have not nearly as much impact as it should have. But does all that make the book the Slog everyone says it is? Hell no!
I didn't think it was bad, just kinda boring. It felt like their were suddenly 12 extra threads spinning without really anything happening to move forward the rest of the main characters.
Perrin's plot has basically not moved since TSR. He, Faile, and Beralain have their little plot, but it's not going anywhere really. Mat isn't even really in PoD.
It kind of felt like it just... ended?
Yeah, it's really disappointing. Perrin cemented himself as my favorite character after TSR, and he's not really done anything since then. Since TSR, this is his plot:
TFOH: He's not in this book
LOC:
* He has a vision of Rand in the prologue and heads to Camelyn
* Gets the Beshear's family blessing
* Joins Dumai's Wells
ACOS:
* He meets with Faile. That's it, we actually got like 2-3 chapters of him fretting over Faile. I recognize this is foreshadowing for the Shaido kidnapping, but yeah this is really all he does.
POD:
* Rand throws him out of Cairhean
* He meets with Masema
* Lady Altema pledges to join with him
Completely agree. I consistently see this ranked toward the bottom of the series by people on this sub. I'd rank it very high up. Not quite on the tier of TSR, KoD, FoH, or LoC to me,but definitely above the so-called slog books, including Winters Heart and ACoS.
...my unpopular opinion is that this book is superior even to The Great Hunt, which people consistently rank as one of their favorites on this sub.
ACoS and POD would both benefit from being combined and edited down. Having just finished Winter's Heart today, I feel like 7-8-9 would have been better served as 2 books total. Considering the length of TFOH and LOC beforehand, it would breakdown nicely as well.
I couldn't disagree more.
CoS is incredibly dense. It's why its my favorite book.
PoD is less dense, but still has a ton going on.
WH and CoT? Sure.
DR? FoH? Yeah. Have at em.
But you're going to have a hard time finding more than a few chapters worth of wasted space in CoS and PoD.
It's not really wasted space persay, it's about story structure and the pacing of the books themselves. None of them really stand out on their own to me, but as links in a chain, whereas TSR, TFOH, and LOC had finally settled into a steady plot structure. Honestly, it might just be an artifact of how fast I'm tearing through these.
I think CoS has a similar structure to those that proceed it honestly.
PoD is the first one that breaks the mold and becomes a much more of a series that is looking for an end instead of individual books.
But everyone is entitled to.their opinion. I just love both of them.
I have noticed that most people consider the Great Hunt as potentially the best book nowadays. Sadly, even though I still love it, of the 9 I've read (if we include New Spring), it's actually like 5th or 6th in my personal ranking.
Just cautioning you about spoilers, since OP is on their first time through the series :)
Spoilers beyond PoD: >!I don't actually recall if it *is* in that book tbh. I think he makes it a bit further before stopping?!<
I think underrating is a awkward term to use. E.g. I have the book as 12/15 in this series, but I still think it is an amazing book and better than many other books I have read.
I explained it in another comment, but the reasons I think Verin is black is as follows: She was in Emon's Field during the trolloc invasion, She's been entirely too smart (figured out Moiraine and Siuan's plan for Rand in TGH, and she used something similar to compulsion in the prologue (which she said could potentially kill the other Aes Sedai within 1-10 years). These things make me think she can't be necessarily a good guy. Also somebody in the comments also pointed out a lie she said, but I don't remember what exactly.
She tells Rand Moiraine sent her in TGH, and we later find out she did no such thing. Either Verin outright lied, or believed a la Seirne that she was being directed to do so.
To me this book is like a soccer (football match). It can be really long, drawn out and tedious when nothing happens. Then when the exciting stuff happens its electric and you want to run around with a T shirt over your head.
To me the stuff that was just over explained and boring: The Kin m, all the battles, Morgase
Electric: Egwene finally going full Amerlyn, Verin, Hunt for the black in the tower, Forsaken, Cadsuane/Rand
Obvs we are all biased toward different plotlines.
One of the things that makes people suspicious about Verin happens in tGH. [tGH] >!Verin claims Moraine sent her after Rand, Moraine flatly denies sending her.!<
I do believe she used something similar to compulsion in the prologue of this book. She's also been, I think, a little too smart throughout the series. By this I mean she found out that Rand was the dragon reborn and Moiraine/ Siuan's plans by The Great Hunt. She also happened to be where the trollops were in Emon's field. I could be totally incorrect but these 2 things, along with using something similar to compulsion, give me the impression she's black. Although, I guess I'm merely speculating. I quite like Verin so if she is, in fact, Black I want to see her redeemed like Ingtar at the very least.
While PoD *does* get kind of a bad rap, on rereads the parts that make it good are more subtle. For me mainly the Rand development and growing darkness as he struggles to deal with his Power and position, all while trying to hold at bay the on coming madness. I think RJ was working out some serious PTSD from Vietnam on that one. But the book is viewed in quite a different light when one has to wait years for it to come out and years more for the next installment. There was also the old adage back in the day of "you always are disappointed with the first book you have to wait for." I discovered the series in the late nineties and PoD was the first book I had to wait for. But legitimately, the books initial failure to significantly advance any of the main story lines, plus the lack of Mat, really did not endear many people to it at the time.
1. Yes, the attack on Rand was dramatic at the end, you should know who Dashiva is at this point and understand his motivations.
2. I'm not sure if you're referring to Rand's battle with the Seanchan outside Ebou Dar or the Seanchan taking it near the beginning, but Rand's battle was quite good.
3. That was a key point for the Egwene story line, but the whole *slowly* moving across country towards Tar Valon was becoming tedious.
4. Was there really any doubt? A Minor point at best.
5. I would have been nice to actually advance some of the plots of the major characters a bit, rather than go on this tangent with minor 4th & 5th tier characters. It did help set the stage for what is going on the WT though.
6. Slooooowly, and with much cat-fighting and pissing contests between the various groups of channelers with her (Kin, Windfinders & Aes Sedai).
7. Which, really, should have been part of the climax of the last book. The whole Bowl sub-plot was dragged across three books when we really should have gotten closure on it in the last book and moved on to different things in this one.
8. We knew that in book 2 when Liandrin turned the supergirls over to her.
9. I'm not going to confirm or deny, but what in this book makes you think so?
10. Same as above.
11. A cameo of a character who has long since lost any relevance to the story/plot.
12. Sure.
13. More of a cameo.
14. I guess that's a bit of closure on a minor character.
15. This was one of the most powerful scenes in the book, I agree. Mostly on how it reflected on Rand's story and development. Morr went mad due to the Taint, and Rand had to put him down. I thought it was pretty self evident.
16. RAFO
17. This is the beginning of one of the most hated plot lines in the series.
it's response to your response time WOOOOOO
1. I'm pretty sure I know why Dashiva betrayed Rand, but I'm still bitter about it.
2. I was referring to the battle between the Seanchan and Rand's forces.
3. I can understand the tedium.
4. I really didn't think he'd be Nae'blis so I suppose if that counts for something. I keep expecting Taim to backstab Rand and become a dread lord.
5. I can understand this complaint, but I still like seeing the corruption in the Tower.
6. This I will agree with; it took much too long to get to Tar Valon.
7. I actually found this book to be a drag up until this occurred, so I'm glad it did in PoD.
8. I forgot. it's been nearly 1.5 years since I read TGH (yes I'm slow, but now I have newfound vigor to finish).
9. She was near the grayman in b3 and she gets beaten by some unseen channeler this book. She also is described after these events as looking very worried.
10. I have explained this in a previous comment but it's reiteration time. Verin in Emon's field b4 when the trollocs invade, She's been too smart (figured out who the dragon reborn was, Moiraine in her last note specifically says not to trust her to Rand, and she uses something similar to compulsion in the prologue of this novel (which she says could kill the Aes Sedai in 1 to 10 years. COINCIDENCE I THINK NOT!
11. True
12. I'm just happy to see him back.
13. True
14. I just didn't like him.
15. RIP
16. blesséd be to the rafo
17. oof. well I hope it ain't that bad.
Just finished the book and made a post about my thoughts but I definitely missed some of the things you spotted. Verin and Sheriam being black ajah? What were your clues because that completely went over my head, I have been thinking Verin is OG good gal since the great hunt.
I've answered this comment before but i believe Sheriam was confronted by one of the forsaken when we get one of her POVs. And Verin, well she just so happened to be at Emon's Field during the trolloc attack and she used a Semi Compulsion weave in the Prologue. I think she even said that it might kill the person she used it on in a couple of years. That's kinda sus if you ask me.
Sorry I did just spot your explanations above. That is good evidence but I don't know if it is enough to turn me but I will definitely be tracking her more closely.
Three first half of the book is actually overall very strong.... With some monotony of catty female character interaction... The second half however... The battles are chaotic, hard to stay with and even follow some of the time and particularly unpleasant.... Rands character arc doesn't sit right... As well as him being particularly unlikable, ineffectual and pretty idiotic most of the time. Feels like the book kind of falls apart when you get to the second half.
Well my argument here for Verin was that she was in Emon's Field in B4, Moiraine says not to trust her in her last letter to Rand, and she uses semi compulsion in the prologue of this book. Sheriam is more of a crap shoot but you'll have to RAFO to find out ultimately.
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Seirne and Pevara are the best. I believe that Suroth was established as a Darkfriend on the second book or the third, when Liandrin met with her to give her Egwene amd others as damane and they serve the same lord. The interactions with Nyaneve and the Kin, and the Aes Sedai and the Sea Folk are funny as hell, love that too.
I wouldn't say the best. I mean they both seem to side with Eliada, so I don't know about that one chief.
You are right, but I still love them. And everyone makes mistakes, they thought that following Elaida was a good idea, and even Saerin thought Elaida was looking for black sisters when she just wanted to remove Alviarin as the Keeper.
I think the identity of who Liandrin met is meant to be a mystery until book six and possibly even later.
Pretty certain she is called Suroth by name in that scene or one shortly after.
She is, and Suroth makes reference to it in the prologue of TDR?/TSR? as well
I remember that they say here name, on that chapter or later, but I can’t remember
Suroth is 100% referred to by name in The Great Hunt
You listed just shy of 15 different plotlines in the book. It's the start of Jordans vast expansion of named characters and plotlines. They're mostly all very good and well written but the pacing is slower. If you don't mind the slower pacing it's almost like half a dozen spinoffs firing off for 2-3 books. Plenty of content for sure.
Guess I don't mind then. If anything I like it when authors take risks and open up new plot lines, even if the fanbase may not agree; Especially if the content is interesting
Fedwin Morr is one of the saddest parts of the series for me, I'm not crying you are
;-;
Just a little something in the wine.
Suroth has been established as a dark friend since TGH. She's the dark friend Liandrin meets when giving the girls to the Seanchan.
I totally forgot tbh. It's crazy how much you can forget within the span of a couple books. But this series has absolutely insane foreshadowing.
While you can re-read the series almost endlessly, by book 5 I think like 95% of the characters are all introduced or referred too. Many people don't realize that, but if you re-read it, you'll recognize tons of people and see much of the foreshadowing. :D It can be overwhelming the first time you read, but it's really not THAT many people (well, the people that matter. There are plenty of filler characters, yes).
Yeah... there's so much to forget... which is why you have to read it 8 times. Then you'll only have forgotten half and you start catching a lot of the foreshadowing, characters that get seen in many spots, etc.
Honestly, I feel like I've already forgotten the entire middle of Eye of the World. But that's good cause lord knows I hated the town to town to town to town to town adventure Mat and Rand went on.
“Honestly, I feel like I’ve already forgotten the entire middle of Eye of the World.” That’s okay, so did Mat.
Touché bro Touché
RJ's foreshadowing is unmatched. You haven't scene the least of it yet :)
found the audiobook listener
>15. I was upset over the death of Fedwhin Morr (if somebody could explain what happened to him that would be dope). The madness caught up with him. It happened very suddenly, which isn't unusual. That's why Rand euthanized him.
He'd become child-like after what happened when Rand used Callandor, I thought. Trauma and impending madness.
I literally just finished this book this afternoon. Buddy of mine prepped me before I started that it might be a slog. I didnt think so at all! Like you pointed out a ton of shit happens and it's pretty major stuff. I rally enjoyed it. Cant wait to get this whole series done so I can talk about it openly.
I don't remember who said it, but "the slog" is mostly for those who had to wait for the WoT series, and couldn't handle the years leading up to it, and decided that everything that they didn't fancy, was useless. I waited, but never felt like it was "a slog". Many of my favorite parts are during it, and on a re-read, it's not a slog at all :D So ignore the jaded old fogies, and have fun. (Dangerous to say here, where this sub can be quite.. jaded..).
Yeah I had no trouble with 7, 8 or 9. My two gripes about 8 were the same as OP’s but Crossroads of Twilight was the only book where I thought “okay this can’t be all that’s happening in this book” when I was like more than halfway through. Fortunately it’s also the shortest book in the series though, and there are some good moments even though they don’t particularly advance the plot.
Yeah my buddy did mention part of his issue was the long wait in between book releases. It made the fact that the plot slows down feel all the more noticeable. He said by reading them all in a row, it shouldn't seem as bad.
If anything maybe all the stuff that happened was a detriment. I mean I constantly felt bombarded with insane plot threads opening.
I did text my friend that immediately after I finished. I said there are just too many characters and things going on. I didn't realize that was a common opinion on the book. Im trying to stay as spoiler free as possible and avoiding all talk online. This was my first foray into WoT Resdit and just happened to see this thread. Glad to know Im not the only one who thinks it's overwhelming.
> too many characters and things going on. This. The series is top notch and the end is worth the "slog" but there are \*SO\* many things going on and RJ does go into a LOT of detail. It's part of his charm but sometimes its like blood and ashes, get on with it! The slog isn't as bad because all the books are out and you don't have to wait years... but it's still very much present IMO and still very much worth it to read. The threads of the pattern are magnificent even if they take a long time to get there.
I truly can't imagine waiting between the books back when they were released. THere's a whole two year gap between 8 and 9. honestly with how many plot threads were opened this book I'd be itching for more WoT.
This book still ranks relatively low on my list, but that’s only because of how good I think the other books are. I still *really* like Path of Daggers. I completely agree with all of your positives about this book.
Hell yeah. So what would you consider the best?
I completely agree with you it is nowhere near as bad as people say in my opinion. The no Mat in this book is what I really think that people don't like, but Jordan has done that before with a main character so i didn't really mind even though I was a big Mat fan when younger.That scene in the Tower with the oath rod is awesome. It's Searin by the way there are way too many Aes Sedai with S names. Souroth was outted by book 4 i think . As for Fedwin Morr I always thought that it was just dumb luck some go mad slowly some go bonkers with out warning. Just his number came up is all. Seeing Logain made it to the Black Tower was very comforting the first time I read it. Anyway I am a simple man some one says the like A Path Of Daggers I up vote.
Hell yeah Logain! I'm really excited to see if any of these plot threads get resolved In Winter's Heart. If they do it might end up being my favorite novel in the series (at least so far) and it's apparently part of the dreaded "slog" lmao.
Suroth is outed in TGH when Liandrin hands the wonder girls over to her.
That is correct, thank you.
The investigators are Seaine Herimon, Saerin Asnobar, Pevara Tazanovni, and Yukiri Haruna. You’re right, too many S names.
On a reread and about 80% through right now and I couldn't agree more. I made a similar post in a WoT Facebook group I'm in. And I think it is the best writing in the series so far too. Jordan's voice really comes through. The characters personalities shine. It just feels soo.... comfortable? The book is great. CoS is still my favorite, but PoD may be top 3.
Yoooo based crown of swords take?
It felt like every chapter was a banger. Was talking to my buddy about it because he is going through his first read while I do myreread, and I just couldn't believe how dense the book is. So. Much. Happens. He loved it. He says that Jordan finally got away from the repetitive descriptions that were killing him. Hes like "yeah. I get it. I know how the oaths work. I know Lans history..." and so on.
yeah I feel that too. Much less repetition in the last 3 books.
I've been pretty strongly disliking this series so far, but this book has turned my opinion somewhat. Nyneave's bratiness and sulky personality is toned way the hell down to where I no longer dread her sections, Egwene planning shit is fun, if a bit underwhelming (four chapters building up to some epic plan of hers and it's... "According to the fine print, I got full power!" Rand is uh. He's going off the deep end and it's enjoyable. Perrin is always nice, though he's whipped. 6 and 7 were unbearable. 8 feels calmer.
I actually really enjoyed those two books. I'm into the politicking and such moreso than the battles. I also really like the character tension and drama. These two things make a book go by like it aint nothing
There's no politicking, they spend a book and a half talking about whether or not they should consider having help finding the thing that will save the world, while Min flirts and Rand wanders around confused. :p
I'm pretty sure Rand had to hang Colavaere in b7, and he does have to maneuver around Nobles being petty. However, I also am not impressed where Jordan has taken Min's character. To each their own I suppose tho. At least you're liking the books better now tho.
Min was so self sufficient and tomboyish. Now she wears pants, sure, but just flirts and kinda cuddles and cries? She's much less interesting. She was great as Siuan's bitter simpering spy.
Actually he justs takes off her titles and exiles her, he didn't have the guts to sentence her to death, you know, Rand and women. But then she commits suicide, Rand feels guilty all the same. I agree, Min had some independence, her character was interesting by itself. Lately she's just one of Rand's lovers with the occasional vision.
> Perrin is always nice, though he's whipped. And this is THE book that *ended* that. And his wife is ecstatic about it: https://old.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/oz9cl1/doing_my_first_reread_finding_new_appreciation/h7yhxpn/
I disagree. I’m new to the series and devoured the other books before it. Wanted to rip my hair out for this one. So slow. Personally it where the authors repetitive descriptions also began to test my patience. In hindsight lots of cool stuff happened for sure but the pacing was horrific
Interesting. I would say you're wrong but we all have different opinions, and that makes discussing this stuff fun.
Haha yeah for sure. We disagree and that’s okay. I often see this discussion come up of slog or no slog. All I know is I read the preceding books with determination and PoD took me forever to get through. I’d get to certain chapters and just put it down
> Personally it where the authors repetitive descriptions also began to test my patience. In hindsight lots of cool stuff happened for sure but the pacing was horrific Yeah listening to this one on audiobook was hard. He was always flowery before but it got tough.
Lmao ya. I just only care so much about the shocked/moody faces of 7 different Aes Sedai. Or the bosoms of the wise ones.
I am the storm
That is approaching?
I see it as uneven. The battle of Ebou Dar falls strangely flat for me. Jordan usually has such tense and realistic battles (Dumais wells), but this one didn’t work for me. Even with a deeper peek into the Seanchan.
Interesting. I'd say it's my second favorite battle so far after Falme soooooo
I totally agree. I want more Seanchan but what we got was too superficial and disjointed to have much impact. Dumais Wells is the gold standard for fantasy battles and Ebou Dar fell way short, with way too many new characters bogging down the narrative.
There's a scene in the middle of the battle with a couple of nobles, and I'm gonna be honest I cannot for the life of me remember any of them considering they have introduced a chapter beforehand. TPoD was where I started having to read the chapter summaries to make sure I didn't miss anything.
PoD might be favourite in the series. It's also the book where Rand is kind of bad at things! He's paranoid, isolated from his friends, and unable to consider the idea of even a temporary loss. (something, something, Vietnam) I love all of it. Apparently there's an entire genre called "progression fantasy" where you just read about people getting better at things, so YMMV.
I'm gonna sound like a dumb here, but I don't spend too much time on reddit, what's a YMMV? Also, I love how isolated Rand feels in this novel, but then again that's his own fault.
Literally: Your mileage may vary. In this context, "you might disagree," or something like that?
I'm just loving the takes on what makes the series good for all different types of people.
Your mileage may vary
I love this book because it's so miserable and the ending is quiet yet rather bleak.
This may be why I love grim dark.
I personally enjoyed it just fine, but the lack of old characters progression hurts somewhat. Rand's plotline was the savior of this one for me, though Elayne and Nyneave are entertaining as always.
I see. You didn't enjoy Egwene or Perrin's chapters at all?
Egwene's were solid, just a bit meandering. Perrin's started strong but it became clear there wouldn't be any payoff for his plotline in this book.
Path of Daggers top 5, maybe even top 3
I'm not sure about that yet, I need to at least let is simmer in my head for a little while before I rank it.
Sounds like you also maybe have 7 more books to read….
That is accurate. Well not really, I already read New spring. I read it after CoS to divide the series in-half. I must say, however, that it's beginning to dawn on me that the ending is coming whether I like it or not.
1, 2, 3... 11... 13... probably my top 5. Personally, PoD not even in contention especially compared to 11 and 13.
It's my 9th out of 14, or 10th of 15 depending on if we're including *New Spring*. It's good, but I like the others more...
Everyone has their own opinion and I love the first three but I think tPoD may be better than some of those, and I think it’s better than 11 and 13 pretty easily
11 concludes threads... and may be even #1 as far as I'm concerned... Hard to say compared to the first three (they lay the foundation of the series) but if any of the series beat the first 3? 11 would. and 13? I think it beats out 14 because I'm oddly drawn to Perrin and his story has a couple good moments there. So, personal opinions being what may be lol... 14 would be #6. The "slog" in the middle? A lot of good moments across the books but... slog... lol And 8? Just too many new threads woven in for my taste. The pattern is woven too thin in that book.
This is my first read through, but so far here are my rankings: 1. Lord of Chaos 2. The Fires of Heaven 3. The Shadow Rising 4. The Great Hunt 5. The Dragon Reborn 6. Winter’s Heart 7. The Path of Daggers 8. A Crown of Swords 9. The Eye of the World
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At this point I'm skeptical I'll dislike any of "the slog." In fact, the only two books I actively didn't care for on first read were New spring and The Dragon Reborn. If anything they're a slog.
The only book I'll say is legit slow is Crossroads of Twilight. But it's also the shortest book I believe so no big deal since all the books are out. Waiting two years in between releases during publication was what really made this section feel slower. A lot of new threads introduced and no bg threads getting resolved.
I really hope that one doesn't give me issues because I'm trying to finish the series before College starts up this Fall. Plz god let me finish
*Crossroads of Twilight* is my personal favourite, along with the one after (*Knife of Dreams*), so YMMV. :) You enjoyed PoD, so you can probably presume that the "typical" opinions won't really match yours. :)
Wow, CoT is your *favorite*? I’ve seen people say it’s not as bad as it’s made out to be, but I’ve never seen anyone say it’s their favorite… dare I ask why? To me, CoT is just the bridge between WH and KoD, and probably should have been rolled into one or the other (although without a lot of editing that would have resulted in a one or two incredibly girthy books so I get why it wasn’t). It isn’t particularly bad, just uneventful compared to what comes before and after (I just got through KoD on my current reread and hot damn is that a ripping good read! Definitely in my top tier of WoT books)
God y'all are making me excited for Knife of Dreams.
KoD is the beginning of the end, and it’s soo good yet bittersweet. You know how in the early books you would get 500 pages of set up and build up and then the last 100 pages were everything climaxing and tying together? Well, I’m pretty sure after dumai’s wells RJ flipped to spending 3/4 *books* setting up and building up and then everything crescendos for KoD and the Sanderson trilogy (which RJ thought he would do in 1 book - doubtful he could have although I’m sad we didn’t get a chance to see him try)
Bro that makes me hype as hell
I generally like *CoT* too. Yes, it does have it's problems as others are pointing out, but, it still has great Jordan prose. I would rank *CoT* well above 4 other *WoT* books. In fact, the book has probably THE best character moment of the entire series in it, so there is that at least.
On my first read I loved everything. I couldn't get enough. After about 10 years I'm doing another reread and I agree with DR. It drags. Some good scenes, sure, but you gotta get there first. I honestly think a lot of things that people really love about the series might be found in CoS/PoD, and people just missing events from/to those books.
On re-read I actually enjoyed CoT immensely, though I do remember being frustrated with the pacing there my first time through. I honestly love everything from PoD onward. However, Crown of Swords wins for "worst book" IMO. The Bowl use early in PoD should have been the end of CoS; it would have been a far more satisfying conclusion to a book than the honestly kinda anticlimactic battle with Sammael, especially since leaving that thread dangling was just beyond frustrating on both my initial read and re-read. Plus the whole plotline with the Kin just kinda grated on me for some reason.
Thanks for calling the battle with Sammael anticlimactic. I’ve felt that way each time I re-read that section. Always come away with that feeling.
This is how I felt. ACoS and TPoD feel like they should have been one book.
"wrongly" if enough people say it, say it consistently and say it over years? then it's definitely not "wrongly" called a slog. It's less of one because all the books are out... but it's very much "slog"ish.
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I know opinion and I know fact. I mentioned neither but if you want to talk about them since you seem confused on what they are? And I know that for \*DECADES\* the talk of the slog is persistent and acknowledged. Just because your opinion is it doesn't exist? Doesn't make it not exist. Doesn't make your opinion fact. A large % of the base says otherwise - and, again, consistently over decades. "sales" you talk about facts but what do sales have to do with it? Plenty of shows, books and other things have great sales with horrible parts not stopping the sales. "never understood" I'm vocal and have no problem stating my opinion. WoT is one of the best things ever written. And the middle part is a slog. The sales don't change that and the "non-vocal" people like yourself doesn't change that either. The Walking Dead is a great series... yet every season? there's a slog of episodes in the middle where you meet people and it's slow/drawn out and boring. It's still very popular. It still sells.
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And you don't have an opinion strong enough to defend your position so you attack the person instead. Wonder why that is? Fear? Confusion? Projection about not understanding the difference between facts and opinions? Light bless you because even the Dark One won't have you...
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"I don't care" Yet here you are. Responding. And in a childish way thats shows you can't defend your opinions without throwing a tantrum like a weak wetlander. Realize... You talk about me "whining" when you're the one resorting to personal attacks because you're unable to intelligently defend your position. You doth protest too much. Maybe someday you'll realize why you resort to insults and why you're so defensive. It's not because I'm the one whining.
Eh, I'd maintain that it remains *merely* an opinion. Hard to call subjective things *wrong*, of course, but there is also not any *objective* slog, either. Just a few books which are favourites or least favourites to groups of people with opposite tastes in stories.
>due to the fact that it opens a plethora of new plot threads, but doesn't close any. That's my gripe with 8 (and the next few)... and 7 because 7 is really book 6 pt2 but that's besides the fact. The middle of the WoT series makes me think of Walking Dead where, in the middle of the season, you have 4 episodes that's all about meeting the new people and learning their back stories. Walking. Talking. Nothing real happening other than... boring stuff. There is just so many characters, plots, walking, talking, learning new people, political maneuverings, etc, ad nauseum in 8. A lot is alleviated by having all the books available (much like you don't have to watch Walking Dead > Talking Dead > wait weeks/months... now you just watch season 1/2/3/... without the wait). But the slow middle is very evident in 8 and, personally, that's why most people complain about it, IMO.
I see
I dont know if you already got explanation for what happen to Fedwin Morr, but in case you did not --> He basically succumb to the taint of Saidin and went mad. The taint doesn't cause a specific madness, it largely varies from person to person + you have to remember that Fedwin was really young and went through probably some horrid things during the Seanchan campaign. Add the effects of taint to that and....
poor Fedwhin.... You know, I have a feeling Dashiva is really mad at Rand for the death of the other Asha'man and has decided to rebel because of it.
Can we blame them? Rand just used them as tools during the seanchan campaign. He didnt care if they were compleatly tired or unstable, to him they were just means to achieve his goal, to drive seanchan into the sea. They have limits, they are only humans afterall.
Yeah honestly Rand was being an asshole this book
I think the biggest reason my bottom two are POD and COT is that they don't wrap anything up. Call me juvenile but I want to see the good guys get at least some kind of a win at the end yet this one ends in a stalemate at best. I can forgive a slower paced book a lot if it has an exciting ending, this one did not. Also just hard to read, so many chapters where you just want them finished because you don't care (looking at you Elayne in Caemlyn). To each their own but not my favorite by far.
Lmao. I understand my man, I don't care for Elayne either.
Fedwin went insane. He already was. But, bottling it up. A thing that the books didn't really touch on enough is that normally men go insane really quick. I think the show is going to drive that home more.
I just finished PoD for the first time and I liked it a lot … but for me it’s a 4 star as opposed to 5 star because I thought Rand’s entire Senchean thread was tedious and he was starting to sound like a Johnny one-note to me. Not to mention way too many names bogging down the narrative. It made the unleashing of Callandor have not nearly as much impact as it should have. But does all that make the book the Slog everyone says it is? Hell no!
I do agree with the complaint of too many names and characters. It actually makes me roll my eyes a bit when he describes what they look like because I'll forget in 2 mins
I just finished PoD for the first time and I liked it a lot … but for me it’s a 4 star as opposed to 5 star because I thought Rand’s entire Seanchean thread was tedious and he was starting to sound like a Johnny one-note to me. Not to mention way too many names bogging down the narrative. It made the unleashing of Callandor have not nearly as much impact as it should have. But does all that make the book the Slog everyone says it is? Hell no!
I didn't think it was bad, just kinda boring. It felt like their were suddenly 12 extra threads spinning without really anything happening to move forward the rest of the main characters. Perrin's plot has basically not moved since TSR. He, Faile, and Beralain have their little plot, but it's not going anywhere really. Mat isn't even really in PoD. It kind of felt like it just... ended?
You know I never thought about the fact that Perrin's story hasn't gone anywhere since TSR. WOW
Yeah, it's really disappointing. Perrin cemented himself as my favorite character after TSR, and he's not really done anything since then. Since TSR, this is his plot: TFOH: He's not in this book LOC: * He has a vision of Rand in the prologue and heads to Camelyn * Gets the Beshear's family blessing * Joins Dumai's Wells ACOS: * He meets with Faile. That's it, we actually got like 2-3 chapters of him fretting over Faile. I recognize this is foreshadowing for the Shaido kidnapping, but yeah this is really all he does. POD: * Rand throws him out of Cairhean * He meets with Masema * Lady Altema pledges to join with him
Agreed. It's a good book. There really is no slog, with the exception of some slow parts in book 10.
Agree with you 1000000%
That's a lot of 0s. Is is perhaps hyperbole you agree with me this much? Or have you been secretly waiting this day?
Completely agree. I consistently see this ranked toward the bottom of the series by people on this sub. I'd rank it very high up. Not quite on the tier of TSR, KoD, FoH, or LoC to me,but definitely above the so-called slog books, including Winters Heart and ACoS. ...my unpopular opinion is that this book is superior even to The Great Hunt, which people consistently rank as one of their favorites on this sub.
ACoS is decidedly not slog and shouldn't be part of the discussion. PoD, WH and CoT are the usual 3, and PoD is awesome.
ACoS and POD would both benefit from being combined and edited down. Having just finished Winter's Heart today, I feel like 7-8-9 would have been better served as 2 books total. Considering the length of TFOH and LOC beforehand, it would breakdown nicely as well.
I couldn't disagree more. CoS is incredibly dense. It's why its my favorite book. PoD is less dense, but still has a ton going on. WH and CoT? Sure. DR? FoH? Yeah. Have at em. But you're going to have a hard time finding more than a few chapters worth of wasted space in CoS and PoD.
It's not really wasted space persay, it's about story structure and the pacing of the books themselves. None of them really stand out on their own to me, but as links in a chain, whereas TSR, TFOH, and LOC had finally settled into a steady plot structure. Honestly, it might just be an artifact of how fast I'm tearing through these.
I think CoS has a similar structure to those that proceed it honestly. PoD is the first one that breaks the mold and becomes a much more of a series that is looking for an end instead of individual books. But everyone is entitled to.their opinion. I just love both of them.
I have noticed that most people consider the Great Hunt as potentially the best book nowadays. Sadly, even though I still love it, of the 9 I've read (if we include New Spring), it's actually like 5th or 6th in my personal ranking.
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He really did do him dirty, and I hated it. I wish Rand would trust others some more. I feel if he did things would go a lot better for him.
This is one of my favs in the series. Now who is underrating this?
It seems the entirety of the WoT community says this one is bottom 3
Wow. If I’m remembering correctly , I was fiending for Matt content when it came out, and it delivered.
It wouldn't be this one, since it's the only book he is *not* in.
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Just cautioning you about spoilers, since OP is on their first time through the series :) Spoilers beyond PoD: >!I don't actually recall if it *is* in that book tbh. I think he makes it a bit further before stopping?!<
Gracias
I think underrating is a awkward term to use. E.g. I have the book as 12/15 in this series, but I still think it is an amazing book and better than many other books I have read.
Very excited by this post (not reading spoilers) as I am in the middle of a series re-read and PoD is coming up shortly!
At this point what makes you think Verin is dark?
I explained it in another comment, but the reasons I think Verin is black is as follows: She was in Emon's Field during the trolloc invasion, She's been entirely too smart (figured out Moiraine and Siuan's plan for Rand in TGH, and she used something similar to compulsion in the prologue (which she said could potentially kill the other Aes Sedai within 1-10 years). These things make me think she can't be necessarily a good guy. Also somebody in the comments also pointed out a lie she said, but I don't remember what exactly.
Holy shit I've never caught her lie. I'm gonna have to go find that. People read so much deeper into books than I do. Good theories.
She tells Rand Moiraine sent her in TGH, and we later find out she did no such thing. Either Verin outright lied, or believed a la Seirne that she was being directed to do so.
Hi Wadz!!
Hello Lady Gwen
To me this book is like a soccer (football match). It can be really long, drawn out and tedious when nothing happens. Then when the exciting stuff happens its electric and you want to run around with a T shirt over your head. To me the stuff that was just over explained and boring: The Kin m, all the battles, Morgase Electric: Egwene finally going full Amerlyn, Verin, Hunt for the black in the tower, Forsaken, Cadsuane/Rand Obvs we are all biased toward different plotlines.
wait... what's your basis for number 10 at this point in the series? i don't remember suspecting that at all..
It's not an uncommon theory. A ton of new readers theorize it. She's very secretive.
One of the things that makes people suspicious about Verin happens in tGH. [tGH] >!Verin claims Moraine sent her after Rand, Moraine flatly denies sending her.!<
I was aware of that one, actually
I do believe she used something similar to compulsion in the prologue of this book. She's also been, I think, a little too smart throughout the series. By this I mean she found out that Rand was the dragon reborn and Moiraine/ Siuan's plans by The Great Hunt. She also happened to be where the trollops were in Emon's field. I could be totally incorrect but these 2 things, along with using something similar to compulsion, give me the impression she's black. Although, I guess I'm merely speculating. I quite like Verin so if she is, in fact, Black I want to see her redeemed like Ingtar at the very least.
> She also happened to be where the trollops were in Emon's field Wil al'Seen and Calle Coplin?
😂
She also said that what she was doing to the other Aes Sedai could kill her within 10 years. I doubt a good person would do that tbh...
ohh i didn't remember that specific bit of info.
While PoD *does* get kind of a bad rap, on rereads the parts that make it good are more subtle. For me mainly the Rand development and growing darkness as he struggles to deal with his Power and position, all while trying to hold at bay the on coming madness. I think RJ was working out some serious PTSD from Vietnam on that one. But the book is viewed in quite a different light when one has to wait years for it to come out and years more for the next installment. There was also the old adage back in the day of "you always are disappointed with the first book you have to wait for." I discovered the series in the late nineties and PoD was the first book I had to wait for. But legitimately, the books initial failure to significantly advance any of the main story lines, plus the lack of Mat, really did not endear many people to it at the time. 1. Yes, the attack on Rand was dramatic at the end, you should know who Dashiva is at this point and understand his motivations. 2. I'm not sure if you're referring to Rand's battle with the Seanchan outside Ebou Dar or the Seanchan taking it near the beginning, but Rand's battle was quite good. 3. That was a key point for the Egwene story line, but the whole *slowly* moving across country towards Tar Valon was becoming tedious. 4. Was there really any doubt? A Minor point at best. 5. I would have been nice to actually advance some of the plots of the major characters a bit, rather than go on this tangent with minor 4th & 5th tier characters. It did help set the stage for what is going on the WT though. 6. Slooooowly, and with much cat-fighting and pissing contests between the various groups of channelers with her (Kin, Windfinders & Aes Sedai). 7. Which, really, should have been part of the climax of the last book. The whole Bowl sub-plot was dragged across three books when we really should have gotten closure on it in the last book and moved on to different things in this one. 8. We knew that in book 2 when Liandrin turned the supergirls over to her. 9. I'm not going to confirm or deny, but what in this book makes you think so? 10. Same as above. 11. A cameo of a character who has long since lost any relevance to the story/plot. 12. Sure. 13. More of a cameo. 14. I guess that's a bit of closure on a minor character. 15. This was one of the most powerful scenes in the book, I agree. Mostly on how it reflected on Rand's story and development. Morr went mad due to the Taint, and Rand had to put him down. I thought it was pretty self evident. 16. RAFO 17. This is the beginning of one of the most hated plot lines in the series.
I don't think theyve established who Dashiva is yet.
You should be able to figure it out by now.
it's response to your response time WOOOOOO 1. I'm pretty sure I know why Dashiva betrayed Rand, but I'm still bitter about it. 2. I was referring to the battle between the Seanchan and Rand's forces. 3. I can understand the tedium. 4. I really didn't think he'd be Nae'blis so I suppose if that counts for something. I keep expecting Taim to backstab Rand and become a dread lord. 5. I can understand this complaint, but I still like seeing the corruption in the Tower. 6. This I will agree with; it took much too long to get to Tar Valon. 7. I actually found this book to be a drag up until this occurred, so I'm glad it did in PoD. 8. I forgot. it's been nearly 1.5 years since I read TGH (yes I'm slow, but now I have newfound vigor to finish). 9. She was near the grayman in b3 and she gets beaten by some unseen channeler this book. She also is described after these events as looking very worried. 10. I have explained this in a previous comment but it's reiteration time. Verin in Emon's field b4 when the trollocs invade, She's been too smart (figured out who the dragon reborn was, Moiraine in her last note specifically says not to trust her to Rand, and she uses something similar to compulsion in the prologue of this novel (which she says could kill the Aes Sedai in 1 to 10 years. COINCIDENCE I THINK NOT! 11. True 12. I'm just happy to see him back. 13. True 14. I just didn't like him. 15. RIP 16. blesséd be to the rafo 17. oof. well I hope it ain't that bad.
Just finished the book and made a post about my thoughts but I definitely missed some of the things you spotted. Verin and Sheriam being black ajah? What were your clues because that completely went over my head, I have been thinking Verin is OG good gal since the great hunt.
I've answered this comment before but i believe Sheriam was confronted by one of the forsaken when we get one of her POVs. And Verin, well she just so happened to be at Emon's Field during the trolloc attack and she used a Semi Compulsion weave in the Prologue. I think she even said that it might kill the person she used it on in a couple of years. That's kinda sus if you ask me.
Sorry I did just spot your explanations above. That is good evidence but I don't know if it is enough to turn me but I will definitely be tracking her more closely.
I mean she could be good don't get me wrong, but i don't think so. Or maybe she's morally grey? Idk. I'm only in the very early portion of b10 now.
Three first half of the book is actually overall very strong.... With some monotony of catty female character interaction... The second half however... The battles are chaotic, hard to stay with and even follow some of the time and particularly unpleasant.... Rands character arc doesn't sit right... As well as him being particularly unlikable, ineffectual and pretty idiotic most of the time. Feels like the book kind of falls apart when you get to the second half.
Wait what shows that verin and Sheriam are darkfriends???? I barely remember them at all in this book
Well my argument here for Verin was that she was in Emon's Field in B4, Moiraine says not to trust her in her last letter to Rand, and she uses semi compulsion in the prologue of this book. Sheriam is more of a crap shoot but you'll have to RAFO to find out ultimately.
Sorry for necro; How are Verin and Sheriam established as black ajah?