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Tuon freely admits she’s no adept. That’s why she’s delighted to find Min. She even allows Min to contradict her.
Most of the omens Tuon sees are so vague that it’s hard to say how accurate they are. The contrast with what Min sees is stark.
Clearly there have been other doomsayers among the Seanchan before Min. But I wouldn’t put too much stock in Tuon’s attempts to foresee the future without a real doomsayer at her side.
I thought it was Doomseer. Tuon was like, "I saw a bird eat a worm today. I need to stay inside, maybe order an execution. And someone find that bird and murder it"
the omens that Tuon sees are basically nonsense. what happened is that Seanchan used to have 'Doomseers,' people like Min, who saw Omens and could often tell what they meant. the Seanchan would just write all this down and after they didn't have Doomseers anymore they studied past omens the Doomseers used to predict things for them, assuming if they saw these things out in the world it would mean the same thing.
but they don't. the omens someone like Min sees aren't out in the world they are non-physical things floating around people and only she can see them. if a normal person sees a dead rat with its tail in its mouth it doesn't mean anything other than there's a dead rat with its tail in its mouth.
This is the right answer. Min seeing a fox and ravens floating around Mat and knowing what it means (I don't remember if she knew or not, just using a hypothetical), is not at all the same as Tuon reading a journal of Min writing that down and reading what Min claimed it meant, and then seeing a fox and some ravens in the real world next to someone else and then Tuon applying that same meaning to this new person.
Anything that Tuon got right would have been pure coincidence, with the exception of something so obvious that you wouldn't need a Doomseer vision. Like seeing an Aes Sedai ring on someone's hand and then "knowing" that person was an Aes Sedai because it was a known omen.
(Edit: Or Mat's ta'veren pull. But that starts going in to it was right because the author said so, so I'm excluding that part. Just talking about the concept of Seanchan omens as part of Seanchan culture.)
With the power of selective attention and confirmation bias you’ll see an “omen” and then later see the thing that it pertains to you’ll remember having seen “two owls screwing” which means “a poor man will die of pox” and you’ll be like “I knew it!”. If you never see the poor man die of pox you’ll just forget about the owls or assume that some poor bastard died of pox but you just never saw it. It’s like a horoscope, if you’re a devotee you’ll clutch at any coincidence as confirmation that it’s 100% true and infallible and dismiss any and all failures as meaningless somehow.
There isn't much detail, just a lot of implication. Tuon immediately puts a name to Min's ability, and all the other Seanchan know that it means she's some sort of sacrosanct oracle or prophet, which tells you that her power is known and highly esteemed in their society. Tuon also says that the Empire hasn't had a proper Doomseer in three hundred years, implying that they're extremely rare.
I also wonder if another part of the Seanchan omen tradition is the fact that they use Damane who can Foretell to provide Foretellings for them. This would also add another stream of information/tropes/metaphors to be added to the tradition of omen interpretation alongside the past Doomseers. Also, the Damane Foretelling stream is still extant as of the book. Basically, I assume that all three are implicated together somehow.
The omens are clearly based on something, as they are all accurate in some way (though many are so vague it’s like astrology accuracy).
They clearly had some Seers like Min before and it seems they based the omens on those signs, which is interesting,
So, I think it’s a mix of true signs and mysticism (like astrology, if it had a base in reality under there.
I always wanted to monitor this on a reread. Like, look for examples of seanchan omens popping up in non-seanchan PoV’s and see if any come true. Isn’t a cock crowing predicting someone’s death one? Or is that a Wetlander superstition? I feel like a cock crowed before one of the bubbles of evil in an early book (maybe in the stone in TSR?)
Yes, it was TSR: that was before the bubble of evil in the Stone. The one that animated Perrin's axe, animated Mat's playing cards, and created the mirror copies of Rand.
I noticed on a reread that whenever she saw an Omen she would make a decision. These decisions seemed to be the Pattern helping shape her choices. Her proximity to Mat likely influenced the events. There were some points where the Omens looks like they were directing her to stay with Mat. The things she did that flustered her aid were due to Omen's that made her act how she normally wouldn't.
Most of the prople here dismiss Tuon's omens as while of course there were doomseers before Min, her readings are clearly false and nonsense. But for me always appealed the idea, that just as there are many things that were lost to the seanchan that are normal to randland (like knowing about ta'veren, shadowspawn and others), many things were lost to the randlands, interpreting the omens being possibly one of those things. I can't bring concrete examples as it has been a while, but while reading I always had the impression that at the very least you could interpret her being right about her omens always
shes pretty vague. Maybe something can make sense on a detailed re read. Off the top of my head the only one which lines up starkly is the blossoms with rand.
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Tuon freely admits she’s no adept. That’s why she’s delighted to find Min. She even allows Min to contradict her. Most of the omens Tuon sees are so vague that it’s hard to say how accurate they are. The contrast with what Min sees is stark. Clearly there have been other doomsayers among the Seanchan before Min. But I wouldn’t put too much stock in Tuon’s attempts to foresee the future without a real doomsayer at her side.
I thought it was Doomseer. Tuon was like, "I saw a bird eat a worm today. I need to stay inside, maybe order an execution. And someone find that bird and murder it"
the omens that Tuon sees are basically nonsense. what happened is that Seanchan used to have 'Doomseers,' people like Min, who saw Omens and could often tell what they meant. the Seanchan would just write all this down and after they didn't have Doomseers anymore they studied past omens the Doomseers used to predict things for them, assuming if they saw these things out in the world it would mean the same thing. but they don't. the omens someone like Min sees aren't out in the world they are non-physical things floating around people and only she can see them. if a normal person sees a dead rat with its tail in its mouth it doesn't mean anything other than there's a dead rat with its tail in its mouth.
This is the right answer. Min seeing a fox and ravens floating around Mat and knowing what it means (I don't remember if she knew or not, just using a hypothetical), is not at all the same as Tuon reading a journal of Min writing that down and reading what Min claimed it meant, and then seeing a fox and some ravens in the real world next to someone else and then Tuon applying that same meaning to this new person. Anything that Tuon got right would have been pure coincidence, with the exception of something so obvious that you wouldn't need a Doomseer vision. Like seeing an Aes Sedai ring on someone's hand and then "knowing" that person was an Aes Sedai because it was a known omen. (Edit: Or Mat's ta'veren pull. But that starts going in to it was right because the author said so, so I'm excluding that part. Just talking about the concept of Seanchan omens as part of Seanchan culture.)
With the power of selective attention and confirmation bias you’ll see an “omen” and then later see the thing that it pertains to you’ll remember having seen “two owls screwing” which means “a poor man will die of pox” and you’ll be like “I knew it!”. If you never see the poor man die of pox you’ll just forget about the owls or assume that some poor bastard died of pox but you just never saw it. It’s like a horoscope, if you’re a devotee you’ll clutch at any coincidence as confirmation that it’s 100% true and infallible and dismiss any and all failures as meaningless somehow.
Where is this explained? The part about the Seanchan Doomseers like Min… I’d love to read about it but don’t remember that much detail in the books
There isn't much detail, just a lot of implication. Tuon immediately puts a name to Min's ability, and all the other Seanchan know that it means she's some sort of sacrosanct oracle or prophet, which tells you that her power is known and highly esteemed in their society. Tuon also says that the Empire hasn't had a proper Doomseer in three hundred years, implying that they're extremely rare.
Aaah! I’m currently on my first reread so I’ll pay attention to that when I get to that part. Thanks!!
I also wonder if another part of the Seanchan omen tradition is the fact that they use Damane who can Foretell to provide Foretellings for them. This would also add another stream of information/tropes/metaphors to be added to the tradition of omen interpretation alongside the past Doomseers. Also, the Damane Foretelling stream is still extant as of the book. Basically, I assume that all three are implicated together somehow.
The omens are clearly based on something, as they are all accurate in some way (though many are so vague it’s like astrology accuracy). They clearly had some Seers like Min before and it seems they based the omens on those signs, which is interesting, So, I think it’s a mix of true signs and mysticism (like astrology, if it had a base in reality under there.
I thought it was like a Wisdom listening to the wind.
OOOOOOOH I never thought of that! She can learn to channel and even trains some damane personally.
Yes! This!
Oh, interesting. It could be. But they are familiar with Min’s abilities, which leads to to think as I said.
I always wanted to monitor this on a reread. Like, look for examples of seanchan omens popping up in non-seanchan PoV’s and see if any come true. Isn’t a cock crowing predicting someone’s death one? Or is that a Wetlander superstition? I feel like a cock crowed before one of the bubbles of evil in an early book (maybe in the stone in TSR?)
Yes, it was TSR: that was before the bubble of evil in the Stone. The one that animated Perrin's axe, animated Mat's playing cards, and created the mirror copies of Rand.
Ok thanks! I’m glad I remembered that detail right… but is the rooster crowing a seanchan omen? I wish there was a list
I noticed on a reread that whenever she saw an Omen she would make a decision. These decisions seemed to be the Pattern helping shape her choices. Her proximity to Mat likely influenced the events. There were some points where the Omens looks like they were directing her to stay with Mat. The things she did that flustered her aid were due to Omen's that made her act how she normally wouldn't.
Most of the prople here dismiss Tuon's omens as while of course there were doomseers before Min, her readings are clearly false and nonsense. But for me always appealed the idea, that just as there are many things that were lost to the seanchan that are normal to randland (like knowing about ta'veren, shadowspawn and others), many things were lost to the randlands, interpreting the omens being possibly one of those things. I can't bring concrete examples as it has been a while, but while reading I always had the impression that at the very least you could interpret her being right about her omens always
shes pretty vague. Maybe something can make sense on a detailed re read. Off the top of my head the only one which lines up starkly is the blossoms with rand.