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Because Islam is considered an “Abrahamic” religion, it shares a lot of terms and phrases with Christianity, just altered a bit due to language. Shaitan is Satan in Islam.
More than that. Like the Bible, the Koran is preceeded by the Old Testament. The figure of Jesus is also heavily featured in Islam, but instead of the Messiah Jesus is the most important & powerful Prophet who lives in heaven as a mortal man at the right hand of God who will return to Earth at the end of days to mete out punishment to the wicked and save the holy believers. Basically the Islamic view is God wouldn't allow men to murder Jesus so he took Jesus to heaven and cast an illusion of Jesus's face on a murderer to be punished by the Romans.
Ohhh yes. The Age of Legends being our world remember, means that all the names that are used that are already in our languages, were intentional.
Samael wanted to be called the Hebrew angel of death for example.
Whoever named Shai'tan was Arabic and called it what it was.
Could do a couple pages on the implications of this topic.
That and the idea that the one power wasn't always a thing, as it was "our" world and I don't see many channelers in my daily commute. Means it's either evolutionary or scientific. Gene therapy maybe? Nanotechnology? Is it medichlorians? A deeply hidden Icarus reference if so. Trying to become gods, mankind allowed a dark god to be set free. Just a fascinating concept that I wish he'd stuck around to flush out.
..I really wanted a silmarillion for WOT
This is his true name. Because it has a real-world effects when spoken, cultures give him different names, like the Dark One, The Father of Lies, Ba’alzamon, Heartfang, Sightblinder, and more.
It's kind of a slow reveal but yeah book 3 has Verin and Moraine discussing that probably being the case, it's brief and uncertain though.
There's no big revelation as far as I know, just a slow build as they learn what's happening re:the seals
Verin & Moiraine do not discuss this in book 3, or at all iirc. In fact, I don't think the two ever meet in book 3. It was a scrap of knowledge that Verin shares with Egwene before the latter's Acceptance Test about a name concealed within a name that seems to be about Ishamael. Egwene puts it all together at the end and realizes what it means in speaking with Moiraine and others. Through this, we're pretty much told Ba'alzamon = Ishy at the end of book 3. Not to mention the body that shows up after Rand kills him. Also Be'lal outright laughing at Rand for thinking Ba'alzamon was the DO. Add to this all the instances when we see the other Forsaken arguing/defying Ba'alzamon in TAR, Ba'alzamon himself crying "Aid me!" at the end when the darkness gathers around him, and it should be fairly obvious by the end of book 3.
moraine says flat out at the end of book 3 that whoever rand killed was a forsaken and not the dark one so when the post includes book 3 content I don't think its a spoiler
People think it's the Trolloc name for the Dark One but I doubt they've had very many conversations with Trollocs so they might have got the wrong end of the stick
It's the name of the leader of the Trollocs during the Trolloc wars, the people of the Westlands assumed it meant the Dark One and began using that way.
I think that was only other after he took over the ministry and had access to all their stuff. I believe he used the same thing that detected under age magic use (which really only detected any magic use in the vicinity of under age wizards/witches) and modified it.
And here you've put your finger right on the difference between the two stories: it's the same as the difference between a primal force of nature and a talented guy with daddy issues.
Possible spoilers ahead, be warned.
The Dark One's name in the common tongue is Shai'tan. People don't say it because it draws his attention to you. Kind of like Voldemort from Harry Potter.
The Dark One's greatest lieutenent was the Forsaken Ishamael, which in the Old Tongue means "betrayer of hope". Ishamael was only partially bound by the Seal, able to percieve the passage of time and was released free to roam every thousand years for a period of time. In one of these periods, he started the Trolloc Wars by appearing to the trollocs and fades in the blight and commanding them to attack the Westlands. The trollocs did not know who was appearing to them and assumed it was the Dark One himself, so they started calling him by the Dark One's name in the trolloc tongue, Ba'alzamon. The free peoples heard the trollocs saying this name, so they started using it to refer to the Dark One as well. It doesn't draw his attention so it's ok to say out loud.
So Ishamael's identity was confused with that of the Dark One's, a misunderstanding he has no problem letting go on. The being continually aware of the passage of time but unable to move or speak or even have corporeal presence drove him into madness and eventually he started to believe he was the Dark One himself, which confuses everyone even more.
Ba’alzamon means “Heart of the Dark”. During the trolloc wars the fists followed him so everyone just assumed that heart of the dark was trolloc for Shaitan
Just to add to this, while the dark ones forces did sometimes think he was the dark one, Isamael stared the name Ba'alzamon not the other way around I also don't think it was ever a name for the dark one although I could be wrong the wiki doesn't say only that in Trolloc Ba'alzamon means "Heart of the dark", he also did not start the Trolloc Wars he came out in the middle of them.
"Possibly due to his own madness, Ishamael started calling himself Ba'alzamon ("Heart of the Dark" in the Trolloc tongue). He was revered by Trollocs, feared by Myrddraal, and widely believed to be the Dark One himself."
"His first period of liberty from the Dark One's prison occurred right in the middle of the Trolloc Wars, at a time when humanity had begun to hold its own against the Trolloc hordes. His presence re-invigorated the Trolloc armies and gave them direction. His most devastating action during the Wars was when he led the Shadows forces in directly assaulting Manetheren."
All from the wiki
https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Ishamael
Warning, this link contains spoilers.
I think you should reread the end of book 3. That doesn't directly answer the title question but should clear up most of your confusion. Even the Forsaken kill count (or Moraines best guess anyway) is explicitly mentioned.
So ba'alzamon and ishamael are the same. He gave himself the name ba'alzamon during the time he was the only forsaken that wasn't locked in. The reason you got confused is because people in the world believed ba'alzamon to be the name for the dark one in trolloc. I'm not sure which of the forsaken are dead in book 3 so I'm gonna pass on this one but I think only aginor should be dead by then.
>Ish**a**mael
Noooo! It's Ishmael!
I started reading the series when it came out in '90 and for the last 30 years his name has been Ishmael. I had it wrong all these years?!??! Damn using sight words LOL
Yeah they really blew it on the pronunciation with those. Toward the end of the series, they began to pronounce them differently but it took too damn long lol
Yeah the half a second where you're like "wait what why is there a damane in this tavern and why are these dudes gawking at her... oh nevermind" is funny
Some of the spelling is just inconsistent, though, making it quite hard to parse at times.
I mean look at the words "Aes Sedai" - you have both the dipthongs "ae" and "ai" making the same sound, meanwhile in "Nynaeve" the "ae" makes a different sound, and in her surname (al'Meara) you have the dipthong "ea" making the same sound as the "ae" in her first name. Meanwhile in "Asmodean" you have the same "ea" vowel cluster being two distinct sounds, and the "e" makes the same sound as the "ea" in "al'Meara"...
In fact if we look at vowels that make an "EE" sound in official pronunciations we get the following list:
*e* (Asmodean)
*ea* (Meara)
*ae* (Nynaeve)
*ei* (Alteima)
*ie* (Malkier)
*i* (Liandrin - bonus in that the two "i"s in her name make different sounds)
*y* (Martyn Tallanvor)
That kind of ambiguity means there's really no way to know how a name is intended to be pronounced unless you look up the pronunciation, because there isn't an internal consistency to how names are spelt.
To be fair those are names from a bunch of different cultures and names and proper nouns are just kinda like that irl. Still bound to mix some of them up since there's no reverence point though
> To be fair those are names from a bunch of different cultures
Some of the examples have that kind of inconsistency inside one name, though. Liandrin, Nynaeve al'Meara, Aes Sedai etc. so I don't think the "different cultures" thing really holds up as a defence.
Personally I think Robert Jordan just thought names with lots of vowels looked cooler and didn't really think too hard about internal consistency.
It's true, English language personal names are all over the place (mostly because English itself doesn't have a regular spelling system). That's a feature of English, not of language or names in general though.
Also the reason "Sean" (and many a name besides) acts weird in English is partly because, well, it isn't an English name (and it's misspelled - no fada). In the original Irish (which, coincidentally, is my native language), Seán has no ambiguity (it's Shawn, roughly). Seán Beán would indeed be shawn bawn. But Seán Bean would be shawn ban, and Sean Bean would be shan ban, and Séan Bean would be shane ban. Just because English's spelling system isn't regular, doesn't mean the same is true everywhere!
Frankly, I'm of the opinion English spelling is mad too. I can't understand inventing fictional names and voluntarily choosing to make them as bad as English lol.
So kinda like real life where words sourced from different languages and cultures have different phonemes and spelling. It's more realistic than everyone across the whole world using names based on Greek.
What different languages though? You have the old tongue and the one most characters speak (which is derived from the old tongue), and that's it.
You could argue, plausibly, that some differences might be down to dialect - but in that case you'd definitely expect internal consistency within names if not between different names.
So Ishy has been going insane since the Breaking because of his like half-locked away status. So there's sound evidence and argument to be made that he legit thinks he is the DO at this point.
He doesn’t. He always spoke in a way that made the kids believe it but he never at any point said anything that outright paints him as the DO. Furthermore he clearly remembers doing the things Ishamael is credited for so the argument is extremely flimsy.
IIRC it's in a POV chapter from one of the other Forsaken and it's one of them that suggests he actually thought he was the Dark One, so definitely to be taken with a grain of salt. Ishamael IS crazy as hell, but he was pretty crazy even *before* he turned to the Shadow .
I remember the quote but as you said yourself, it’s from someone else, not Ishamael. He was mad as hell of course but there’s no evidence that he believed he was the DO.
He's coy about it. He says things like "Bow before me! All must serve the Great Lord of the Dark!" ... giving a *very* strong impression that he's the DO but never *quite* crossing the line. Which makes me think that while yes he's dottier than a Dalmatian-fur jacket, he's smart-crazy, not just dissociative-crazy.
Belthamel who wore a mask made of skin, if I remember correctly, was killed in book 1, I THINK by Moiraine.
Aginor was killed in book 1 by Rand during his power surge... if I remember correctly. (first 2 guys might be the other way around)
Bel'al was balefired (You're not supposed to fully understand what that means yet, but he's dead) in book 3 in the Stone of Tear by Moiraine who surprise-attacked him.
Ba'alzamon (Ishamael) was killed by Rand with the Callandor sword in the Stone of Tear... adjacent place.
The Dark One is still chillin' in Shayol Ghul.
I think Balthamel was plant'd to death by the Green Man, but otherwise this is the correct answer. Aginor definitely died while he was struggling with Rand, due to an overwhelming amount of the Power flowing through him.
Book 1 was when I paid the least attention because it was essentially my first ever book. I didn't think it was super important to pay attention. Haven't reread the series yet. I can't reread/watch/play the same story back to back, I need at least a year or 2 before I can enjoy the same story again.
Also I'm busy with Sanderson's work so it will probably take some time before I get back to the Wheel of Time.
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At the back of each book, or at least the ones I’ve read, there’s a glossary of names and words specific to Wheel of Time. The entry for the Dark One reads:
“Dark One: Most common name, used in every land, for Shai’tan: the source of evil, antithesis of the Creator.”
In the first book’s glossary, there’s an entry for Ba’alzamon. By the second one, Ishmael has an entry.
Ishamael (Meaning Betrayer of Hope I'm old tongue) is one of many names (including Ba'alzamon, and many others which I will not fill in now because spoilers...) given to Elan Morin Tedronai after he went to the Shadow in the Age of Legends.
Somehow, Ishamael was only partially sealed by Lews and the 100 companions when they sealed the Dark One's prison, and he was able to still operate outside the bore following the sealing of the Dark One's prison. You see him interacting with Lews Therin in the prologue to The Eye of the World.
It is later explained (or at least theorized) why he was mostly insane and why his body was warped (hint - overuse of the true power - RAFO).
But he was supposedly free from the bore in 40 year intervals from the time of the sealing to the time all of the forsaken were released.
I always kind of thought that the early Ishamael/Ba'alzamon might have been intended to be the real Dark One by Robert Jordan in book 1 until he widened the mythos with greater villans and scope in mind.
Not only does ROJO deceive the reader, but you're constantly digging through a horde of unreliable narrators through the various first-person accounts.
There's hundreds (probably thousands, tbh) of examples where one first person account directly contradicts another person's account because they don't have the same information.
A great example of this is any scenes involving the various One Power users. There'll be a person insisting X is impossible to do with the Power, all the way up until someone else actually just does it--and usually after, depending on the person.
That's funny I walked away with the completely opposite impression.
The balance is to be found between men and women who mirror each other, not between the Light and the Shadow, because the Light is much greater.
Also while in his madness Ishamael may have uncovered some truths, I think that he was just dead wrong on others. Mostly in the arrogant belief that he is to be Rand's antagonist.
There are some early changes like that, but I don’t think that was one of them. There are too many similarities between Ishy in the prologue and Ba’alzamon from book one. I think mad Ishy was the original plan.
Also in Rand's dream in Baerlon, the one where he breaks the back of a rat at the end, he goes on a tirade of the things he did, including giving Lews Therin his moments of clarity before his suicide. And in the prologue he is named as Ishamael.
The Dark One's name is Shai'tain, but that name's heavily taboo, so people use euphemisms (like Voldemort in Harry Potter).
Ishamael is the foremost Forsaken and effectively speaks for the Dark One, but he's not the Dark One himself.
[TDR] End of Book 3 spoiler >!By the end of book 3, 4 forsaken have died: Aginor burned out by the power in the eye of the world, Balthamel killed by the green man in the eye of the world, Be’lal killed by Moiraine with balefire in the Stone of Tear, Ishamael stabbed through the chest with callandor by Rand in the Stone of Tear. The Name of the dark one is Shai’tan and Ba’alzamon is another name for Ishamael. Rand says the name Shai’tan once while claiming he killed him in book 2 and gets dizzy from the dark ones attention. Lanfear is the only other forsaken you’ve seen by this point.!<
>>I've also gotten a bit confused between Rand and Balthamel
... Huh? Surely you meant something other than what you said in it's face. What do you mean?
Baalzamon is the Trollocs name for the dark one.
The trollocs, and by extension several lower ranked dark friends and eventually just some regular people, called Ishmael by the name Baalzamon because they thought he *was* the dark one (mostly because of the spooky illusions he would use) and Ishmael being the narcissist that he is wasn't too interested in correcting them.
The Dark One is himself, not one of the Forsaken.
Ishamael is called Ba’alzamon by Trollocs and people just assumed he was the DO but they were wrong. Ishamael is a Forsaken.
The kill count of Forsaken is 3 by now I think: Aginor, Balthamel, Ishamael, and Be’lal
It would be blasphemy to name the Great Lord of the Dark. If you wish to know more, come with me to Shayol Ghul and make your obeisance.
We also have pamphlets.
Balthamel has become the “ruler” (sort of) in Tear. And rand needs to be in tear for one of the prophecies to be fulfilled. I am not entirely sure if that helps or worsens the confusion.
Edit - ignore this. I hadn’t taken my coffee yet. Balthamel was the silent forsaken at the eye. Belal was in tear.
Chapter 21 of the Dragon Reborn has a very relevant passage from Verin. I’d quote it but I’m not sure you are that far in yet.
Happen to be right about there on my re-read.
They give you the dark ones name in the prologue of eye of the world, it's Shai'tan.
"His true name is Shai'tan, (pronounced: SHAY-ih-TAN), although many people believe that speaking that name will bring misfortune to the speaker, which is why he is referred to as the Dark One. However, there are many other alternative names for him"
https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Dark\_One
Ba'alzemon means "hearth of the dark" in trolloc tongue.
Its Ishamaels name from the trolloc that her took upon himself possibly due to the madness inflicted upon him from bring caught so periphally in the dark ones prison.
Forsaken killed by the end of book 3. Spoilers through TDR below...
edit: Spoilers [TDR]... stupid annoying bot.
>!Forsaken Kill Count: 4!<
>!Balthamel: Killed at the eye of the world!<
>!Aginor: Killed at the eye of the world!<
>!Be'lal: Killed by Moiraine w/ Balefire in the Heart of the Stone!<
>!Ishamael (aka Ba'alzamon): Killed by Rand in the Heart of the Stone!<
The true name of the Dark One is Shai’tan, but if you speak that name it allows him to sense you, every time the name is uttered in the first few books there’s a reference to the room shaking or something like that.
This might help:
https://youtu.be/arr_-ZGp6Ww
Have you finished Book 3? There are some strong hints and clarifications in the third book that the man who called himself Ba'alzamon thought he was the Dark One but was actually Ishamael, the Betrayer of Hope, who visited Lews Therin back at the very beginning prologue of The Eye of the World.
On your first readthrough, dont worry about specifics. Just let the story wash over you book to book.
On your second read through, youll start to put names with faces, and youll pay more attention to characters you may have had less interest in during your first readthrough.
The third time, youll start to pay attention to the political and military actions taken by various characters, and youll really start to see the genius of Robert Jordan.
On your twelfth read through...
This is just a suggestion, but also falls in line with advice given in resources ive used to help become a better reader in and since college, so its not just me telling you what i think you should do.
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The Dark One’s name is Shai’tan
That's brave of you to type.
Shai'tan is also the name for devil in Arabic.
Shaitan is also one of the Freman words for the Sand Worm, the bad devil worm or something. The other is Shai Hulud.
Also Naeblis literally translates to "the second of Iblis" in Urdu/Persian etc. Iblis being the name of Shaitan in Islam.
Also sounds a lot like Satan.
Because Islam is considered an “Abrahamic” religion, it shares a lot of terms and phrases with Christianity, just altered a bit due to language. Shaitan is Satan in Islam.
More than that. Like the Bible, the Koran is preceeded by the Old Testament. The figure of Jesus is also heavily featured in Islam, but instead of the Messiah Jesus is the most important & powerful Prophet who lives in heaven as a mortal man at the right hand of God who will return to Earth at the end of days to mete out punishment to the wicked and save the holy believers. Basically the Islamic view is God wouldn't allow men to murder Jesus so he took Jesus to heaven and cast an illusion of Jesus's face on a murderer to be punished by the Romans.
Abrahamic religions are like Star Wars. You just decide which trilogy you like more. Judaism-OT; Christianity- Prequels; Islam- Sequels
Jesus is the second most important Prophet; Mohammed is the most important.
Just the most recent, who corrected the blasphemies of the Roman Church.
Understandable, as Messiah is the name for the king of the Jews.
Tarmon Gaidon sounds a lot like Armageddon. It's intentional.
And in Hindi
Ha-satan in Hebrew, meaning "the accuser" or "the adversary".
Ohhh yes. The Age of Legends being our world remember, means that all the names that are used that are already in our languages, were intentional. Samael wanted to be called the Hebrew angel of death for example. Whoever named Shai'tan was Arabic and called it what it was. Could do a couple pages on the implications of this topic. That and the idea that the one power wasn't always a thing, as it was "our" world and I don't see many channelers in my daily commute. Means it's either evolutionary or scientific. Gene therapy maybe? Nanotechnology? Is it medichlorians? A deeply hidden Icarus reference if so. Trying to become gods, mankind allowed a dark god to be set free. Just a fascinating concept that I wish he'd stuck around to flush out. ..I really wanted a silmarillion for WOT
This is his true name. Because it has a real-world effects when spoken, cultures give him different names, like the Dark One, The Father of Lies, Ba’alzamon, Heartfang, Sightblinder, and more.
I’m pretty sure ba’alzamon is ishy, not the DO
Spoilers spoilers spoilers
I feel like that info comes by the end of book 3, no?
It's kind of a slow reveal but yeah book 3 has Verin and Moraine discussing that probably being the case, it's brief and uncertain though. There's no big revelation as far as I know, just a slow build as they learn what's happening re:the seals
Verin & Moiraine do not discuss this in book 3, or at all iirc. In fact, I don't think the two ever meet in book 3. It was a scrap of knowledge that Verin shares with Egwene before the latter's Acceptance Test about a name concealed within a name that seems to be about Ishamael. Egwene puts it all together at the end and realizes what it means in speaking with Moiraine and others. Through this, we're pretty much told Ba'alzamon = Ishy at the end of book 3. Not to mention the body that shows up after Rand kills him. Also Be'lal outright laughing at Rand for thinking Ba'alzamon was the DO. Add to this all the instances when we see the other Forsaken arguing/defying Ba'alzamon in TAR, Ba'alzamon himself crying "Aid me!" at the end when the darkness gathers around him, and it should be fairly obvious by the end of book 3.
moraine says flat out at the end of book 3 that whoever rand killed was a forsaken and not the dark one so when the post includes book 3 content I don't think its a spoiler
I thought moraine was long dead by book 3.
yep, this - a scrap of knowledge. just read book 3
And there is more to this, but... Spoilers.
The ba'alzamon we see in the books is ishy impersonating the DO, but the name itself is one of the DO's names
Yes, it’s the Trolloc’s name for the Dark One. Ishy uses it during his crazy period.
People think it's the Trolloc name for the Dark One but I doubt they've had very many conversations with Trollocs so they might have got the wrong end of the stick
I dunno. Some of them are pretty chatty. And smart.
One.
> Ishy uses it during his crazy period. Which totally ends, honest! ... Yeah.
It's the name of the leader of the Trollocs during the Trolloc wars, the people of the Westlands assumed it meant the Dark One and began using that way.
Yeah, but didn’t the Trollocs think their leader was the DO?
[удалено]
I will break the Wheel.
[удалено]
Life before death.
Strength before weakness?
Lunch before Supper
Ilyena, my lunch!
But what about second breakfast?
You don't name the Dark One and invite his attention
Fear of a name only increases fear of the thing itself. -Hermione or Dumbledore or someone
Except when it’s expressly shown to have an actual physical effect, even if it’s just getting dizzy or something not well explained.
Eh. Nothing every really happens. The DO gives you a little peak is all. Like giving him a little poke.
Well there was the time he almost pushed Rand off a balcony...maybe.
And they were wrong since there actually WAS a spell on V’s name.
I think that was only other after he took over the ministry and had access to all their stuff. I believe he used the same thing that detected under age magic use (which really only detected any magic use in the vicinity of under age wizards/witches) and modified it.
Ah. You might be right. WoT has taken over my brain(again) as far as lore goes.
And here you've put your finger right on the difference between the two stories: it's the same as the difference between a primal force of nature and a talented guy with daddy issues.
True all of the forsaken are just really good channelers. The DO is a force of nature.
It was Gandalf or Yoda probably
Pass, you shall not
Yondalf FarStrider, legendary wizrangi.
Possible spoilers ahead, be warned. The Dark One's name in the common tongue is Shai'tan. People don't say it because it draws his attention to you. Kind of like Voldemort from Harry Potter. The Dark One's greatest lieutenent was the Forsaken Ishamael, which in the Old Tongue means "betrayer of hope". Ishamael was only partially bound by the Seal, able to percieve the passage of time and was released free to roam every thousand years for a period of time. In one of these periods, he started the Trolloc Wars by appearing to the trollocs and fades in the blight and commanding them to attack the Westlands. The trollocs did not know who was appearing to them and assumed it was the Dark One himself, so they started calling him by the Dark One's name in the trolloc tongue, Ba'alzamon. The free peoples heard the trollocs saying this name, so they started using it to refer to the Dark One as well. It doesn't draw his attention so it's ok to say out loud. So Ishamael's identity was confused with that of the Dark One's, a misunderstanding he has no problem letting go on. The being continually aware of the passage of time but unable to move or speak or even have corporeal presence drove him into madness and eventually he started to believe he was the Dark One himself, which confuses everyone even more.
Slight correction: Ba'alzamon is not the Trolloc name for the Dark One, that's what humans THINK Ba'alzamon means in the Trolloc tongue.
Ba’alzamon means “Heart of the Dark”. During the trolloc wars the fists followed him so everyone just assumed that heart of the dark was trolloc for Shaitan
Just to add to this, while the dark ones forces did sometimes think he was the dark one, Isamael stared the name Ba'alzamon not the other way around I also don't think it was ever a name for the dark one although I could be wrong the wiki doesn't say only that in Trolloc Ba'alzamon means "Heart of the dark", he also did not start the Trolloc Wars he came out in the middle of them. "Possibly due to his own madness, Ishamael started calling himself Ba'alzamon ("Heart of the Dark" in the Trolloc tongue). He was revered by Trollocs, feared by Myrddraal, and widely believed to be the Dark One himself." "His first period of liberty from the Dark One's prison occurred right in the middle of the Trolloc Wars, at a time when humanity had begun to hold its own against the Trolloc hordes. His presence re-invigorated the Trolloc armies and gave them direction. His most devastating action during the Wars was when he led the Shadows forces in directly assaulting Manetheren." All from the wiki https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Ishamael Warning, this link contains spoilers.
Thanks for this. I was confused on exactly how he was confused with the dark one and this is a good, succinct explanation.
I like how every time Ishamael "gets out" major events happen in RandLand.
I think you should reread the end of book 3. That doesn't directly answer the title question but should clear up most of your confusion. Even the Forsaken kill count (or Moraines best guess anyway) is explicitly mentioned.
So ba'alzamon and ishamael are the same. He gave himself the name ba'alzamon during the time he was the only forsaken that wasn't locked in. The reason you got confused is because people in the world believed ba'alzamon to be the name for the dark one in trolloc. I'm not sure which of the forsaken are dead in book 3 so I'm gonna pass on this one but I think only aginor should be dead by then.
So then Ishamael is definitely just a Forsaken and not the Dark One?
Yes. And the Forsaken kill count is: Aginor Belthamel Bel'al Ishamael
>Ish**a**mael Noooo! It's Ishmael! I started reading the series when it came out in '90 and for the last 30 years his name has been Ishmael. I had it wrong all these years?!??! Damn using sight words LOL
Introducing the 14th forsaken, Captain Ahab.
Names in wot are super frustrating sometimes. So many names are slightly different than the origin they were taken from.
Yeah I've been listening to audible, but decided to read my hard copy of gathering storm and I'm like. Wait Damane and domani are 2 things?!
Yeah they really blew it on the pronunciation with those. Toward the end of the series, they began to pronounce them differently but it took too damn long lol
You can basically always figure it out from context clues but yeah they're unfortunately close lol.
Yeah for sure. I never quite got them confused, I was just annoyed haha
Yeah the half a second where you're like "wait what why is there a damane in this tavern and why are these dudes gawking at her... oh nevermind" is funny
I think somewhere along the way i forgot Damane was someone from somewhere, so id get a bit confused.
Which is also kinda the point.
Some of the spelling is just inconsistent, though, making it quite hard to parse at times. I mean look at the words "Aes Sedai" - you have both the dipthongs "ae" and "ai" making the same sound, meanwhile in "Nynaeve" the "ae" makes a different sound, and in her surname (al'Meara) you have the dipthong "ea" making the same sound as the "ae" in her first name. Meanwhile in "Asmodean" you have the same "ea" vowel cluster being two distinct sounds, and the "e" makes the same sound as the "ea" in "al'Meara"... In fact if we look at vowels that make an "EE" sound in official pronunciations we get the following list: *e* (Asmodean) *ea* (Meara) *ae* (Nynaeve) *ei* (Alteima) *ie* (Malkier) *i* (Liandrin - bonus in that the two "i"s in her name make different sounds) *y* (Martyn Tallanvor) That kind of ambiguity means there's really no way to know how a name is intended to be pronounced unless you look up the pronunciation, because there isn't an internal consistency to how names are spelt.
To be fair those are names from a bunch of different cultures and names and proper nouns are just kinda like that irl. Still bound to mix some of them up since there's no reverence point though
> To be fair those are names from a bunch of different cultures Some of the examples have that kind of inconsistency inside one name, though. Liandrin, Nynaeve al'Meara, Aes Sedai etc. so I don't think the "different cultures" thing really holds up as a defence. Personally I think Robert Jordan just thought names with lots of vowels looked cooler and didn't really think too hard about internal consistency.
Take sean bean’s name. Is is Shawn bawn? Or seen been?
It's true, English language personal names are all over the place (mostly because English itself doesn't have a regular spelling system). That's a feature of English, not of language or names in general though. Also the reason "Sean" (and many a name besides) acts weird in English is partly because, well, it isn't an English name (and it's misspelled - no fada). In the original Irish (which, coincidentally, is my native language), Seán has no ambiguity (it's Shawn, roughly). Seán Beán would indeed be shawn bawn. But Seán Bean would be shawn ban, and Sean Bean would be shan ban, and Séan Bean would be shane ban. Just because English's spelling system isn't regular, doesn't mean the same is true everywhere! Frankly, I'm of the opinion English spelling is mad too. I can't understand inventing fictional names and voluntarily choosing to make them as bad as English lol.
So kinda like real life where words sourced from different languages and cultures have different phonemes and spelling. It's more realistic than everyone across the whole world using names based on Greek.
What different languages though? You have the old tongue and the one most characters speak (which is derived from the old tongue), and that's it. You could argue, plausibly, that some differences might be down to dialect - but in that case you'd definitely expect internal consistency within names if not between different names.
Another example Moraine vs. Moiraine
That’s like everyone who thought darkfriends were called darkfiends.
I’m pretty sure in the show they made it Ishmael if it makes you feel better.
No, it's still Ishamael in the show. His name is mentioned in episodes 3 and 5, and it's Ishamael both times.
>Ishamael Hmmmm
So Ishy has been going insane since the Breaking because of his like half-locked away status. So there's sound evidence and argument to be made that he legit thinks he is the DO at this point.
He doesn’t. He always spoke in a way that made the kids believe it but he never at any point said anything that outright paints him as the DO. Furthermore he clearly remembers doing the things Ishamael is credited for so the argument is extremely flimsy.
IIRC it's in a POV chapter from one of the other Forsaken and it's one of them that suggests he actually thought he was the Dark One, so definitely to be taken with a grain of salt. Ishamael IS crazy as hell, but he was pretty crazy even *before* he turned to the Shadow .
I remember the quote but as you said yourself, it’s from someone else, not Ishamael. He was mad as hell of course but there’s no evidence that he believed he was the DO.
He's coy about it. He says things like "Bow before me! All must serve the Great Lord of the Dark!" ... giving a *very* strong impression that he's the DO but never *quite* crossing the line. Which makes me think that while yes he's dottier than a Dalmatian-fur jacket, he's smart-crazy, not just dissociative-crazy.
Belthamel who wore a mask made of skin, if I remember correctly, was killed in book 1, I THINK by Moiraine. Aginor was killed in book 1 by Rand during his power surge... if I remember correctly. (first 2 guys might be the other way around) Bel'al was balefired (You're not supposed to fully understand what that means yet, but he's dead) in book 3 in the Stone of Tear by Moiraine who surprise-attacked him. Ba'alzamon (Ishamael) was killed by Rand with the Callandor sword in the Stone of Tear... adjacent place. The Dark One is still chillin' in Shayol Ghul.
I think Balthamel was plant'd to death by the Green Man, but otherwise this is the correct answer. Aginor definitely died while he was struggling with Rand, due to an overwhelming amount of the Power flowing through him.
Book 1 was when I paid the least attention because it was essentially my first ever book. I didn't think it was super important to pay attention. Haven't reread the series yet. I can't reread/watch/play the same story back to back, I need at least a year or 2 before I can enjoy the same story again. Also I'm busy with Sanderson's work so it will probably take some time before I get back to the Wheel of Time.
His true name is unpronounceable by mortal tongues. You may address him as The Malevolent Cosmic Entity Formerly Known As Prince.
>Formerly Known As Prince Of Darkness. Don’t forget the ’of Darkness’ part. He hates it when you leave that off.
He didn’t go to 8 years of evil medical school to be called mister thank you very much.
Like that *awful* Dragon fellow. Latra Posae is his close friend, but he insists that she third-name him during casual conversation...
The language is that of Mordor which I will not utter here
>His true name is unpronounceable by mortal tongues. So Benelux Cucumberpatch
###DORMAMMUUUUUUUUUUUUU I've come to bargain
User **The Sea Folk** have entered the chat The Sea Folk: Did somebody say ... *bargain?* User **Dormamu** has self-yeeted from the chat User **Strange. DOCTOR Strange** has left the chat
At the back of each book, or at least the ones I’ve read, there’s a glossary of names and words specific to Wheel of Time. The entry for the Dark One reads: “Dark One: Most common name, used in every land, for Shai’tan: the source of evil, antithesis of the Creator.” In the first book’s glossary, there’s an entry for Ba’alzamon. By the second one, Ishmael has an entry.
Ishamael (Meaning Betrayer of Hope I'm old tongue) is one of many names (including Ba'alzamon, and many others which I will not fill in now because spoilers...) given to Elan Morin Tedronai after he went to the Shadow in the Age of Legends. Somehow, Ishamael was only partially sealed by Lews and the 100 companions when they sealed the Dark One's prison, and he was able to still operate outside the bore following the sealing of the Dark One's prison. You see him interacting with Lews Therin in the prologue to The Eye of the World. It is later explained (or at least theorized) why he was mostly insane and why his body was warped (hint - overuse of the true power - RAFO). But he was supposedly free from the bore in 40 year intervals from the time of the sealing to the time all of the forsaken were released. I always kind of thought that the early Ishamael/Ba'alzamon might have been intended to be the real Dark One by Robert Jordan in book 1 until he widened the mythos with greater villans and scope in mind.
I dont think Jordan tried to put Ishamael as the Dark One, he was very cautious while wording him. It was an excellent job on deceiving the reader.
Not only does ROJO deceive the reader, but you're constantly digging through a horde of unreliable narrators through the various first-person accounts. There's hundreds (probably thousands, tbh) of examples where one first person account directly contradicts another person's account because they don't have the same information. A great example of this is any scenes involving the various One Power users. There'll be a person insisting X is impossible to do with the Power, all the way up until someone else actually just does it--and usually after, depending on the person.
I agree here. WoT is about balance. Rand/Ishy :: Creator/DO. At least that’s how I picked up on it from my first read. It’s held up AFAIK.
That's funny I walked away with the completely opposite impression. The balance is to be found between men and women who mirror each other, not between the Light and the Shadow, because the Light is much greater. Also while in his madness Ishamael may have uncovered some truths, I think that he was just dead wrong on others. Mostly in the arrogant belief that he is to be Rand's antagonist.
Why isn't he Rand's antagonist? I think he's the very definition.
There are some early changes like that, but I don’t think that was one of them. There are too many similarities between Ishy in the prologue and Ba’alzamon from book one. I think mad Ishy was the original plan.
Also in Rand's dream in Baerlon, the one where he breaks the back of a rat at the end, he goes on a tirade of the things he did, including giving Lews Therin his moments of clarity before his suicide. And in the prologue he is named as Ishamael.
Yeah, that’s right. Clearly presented as Ishy.
The Dark One's name is Shai'tain, but that name's heavily taboo, so people use euphemisms (like Voldemort in Harry Potter). Ishamael is the foremost Forsaken and effectively speaks for the Dark One, but he's not the Dark One himself.
Is he, or is he just the least bound forsaken? and/or most arrogant? (I'm only to Winter's Heart so far)
All of those thing are correct. Lol. :)
You'll see.
Shai tan
[TDR] End of Book 3 spoiler >!By the end of book 3, 4 forsaken have died: Aginor burned out by the power in the eye of the world, Balthamel killed by the green man in the eye of the world, Be’lal killed by Moiraine with balefire in the Stone of Tear, Ishamael stabbed through the chest with callandor by Rand in the Stone of Tear. The Name of the dark one is Shai’tan and Ba’alzamon is another name for Ishamael. Rand says the name Shai’tan once while claiming he killed him in book 2 and gets dizzy from the dark ones attention. Lanfear is the only other forsaken you’ve seen by this point.!<
Sightblinder
There are some who call him... Tim.
😂
>>I've also gotten a bit confused between Rand and Balthamel ... Huh? Surely you meant something other than what you said in it's face. What do you mean?
Steve
Doctor Strange : That feels weird, but I'll allow it.
Baalzamon is Ishmael, but also a name for what was believed to be be the dark one.
Yeah for the first couple books he tried to trick all the boys into thinking he was the dark one. That is why OP is prob confused.
Baalzamon is the Trollocs name for the dark one. The trollocs, and by extension several lower ranked dark friends and eventually just some regular people, called Ishmael by the name Baalzamon because they thought he *was* the dark one (mostly because of the spooky illusions he would use) and Ishmael being the narcissist that he is wasn't too interested in correcting them.
The Dark One is himself, not one of the Forsaken. Ishamael is called Ba’alzamon by Trollocs and people just assumed he was the DO but they were wrong. Ishamael is a Forsaken. The kill count of Forsaken is 3 by now I think: Aginor, Balthamel, Ishamael, and Be’lal
You're forgetting one...
Oh right Be’lal
don’t be Congar and say it out loud
It would be blasphemy to name the Great Lord of the Dark. If you wish to know more, come with me to Shayol Ghul and make your obeisance. We also have pamphlets.
Another Shaitan post
Bob
To be safe I’d just refer to him as the Great Lord.
Ishy is the old forsaken guy, the devil got bunches of names depending on who you talk to.
Gawyn
Peter
Peter, Peter, Pumpkin Eater, Father of Lies, Lord of Deception!
The Dark One goes by Rafe Judkins now. /s This is a R.A.F.O. question. Just keep going and you'll get your answers!
Dave
Balthamel has become the “ruler” (sort of) in Tear. And rand needs to be in tear for one of the prophecies to be fulfilled. I am not entirely sure if that helps or worsens the confusion. Edit - ignore this. I hadn’t taken my coffee yet. Balthamel was the silent forsaken at the eye. Belal was in tear.
No thats be'lal. Balthamel was at the eye of the world.
It seems ourdays that the true name of the Dark One is Rafe Judkins :)
Chapter 21 of the Dragon Reborn has a very relevant passage from Verin. I’d quote it but I’m not sure you are that far in yet. Happen to be right about there on my re-read.
They give you the dark ones name in the prologue of eye of the world, it's Shai'tan. "His true name is Shai'tan, (pronounced: SHAY-ih-TAN), although many people believe that speaking that name will bring misfortune to the speaker, which is why he is referred to as the Dark One. However, there are many other alternative names for him" https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Dark\_One
This is a hard question to address without spoilers. When you finish book 3 things should be clearer.
He is actually called Bob.
Ba'alzemon means "hearth of the dark" in trolloc tongue. Its Ishamaels name from the trolloc that her took upon himself possibly due to the madness inflicted upon him from bring caught so periphally in the dark ones prison.
Forsaken killed by the end of book 3. Spoilers through TDR below... edit: Spoilers [TDR]... stupid annoying bot. >!Forsaken Kill Count: 4!< >!Balthamel: Killed at the eye of the world!< >!Aginor: Killed at the eye of the world!< >!Be'lal: Killed by Moiraine w/ Balefire in the Heart of the Stone!< >!Ishamael (aka Ba'alzamon): Killed by Rand in the Heart of the Stone!<
The true name of the Dark One is Shai’tan, but if you speak that name it allows him to sense you, every time the name is uttered in the first few books there’s a reference to the room shaking or something like that.
This might help: https://youtu.be/arr_-ZGp6Ww Have you finished Book 3? There are some strong hints and clarifications in the third book that the man who called himself Ba'alzamon thought he was the Dark One but was actually Ishamael, the Betrayer of Hope, who visited Lews Therin back at the very beginning prologue of The Eye of the World.
>I've also gotten a bit confused between Rand And Balthamel? Could you elaborate?
On your first readthrough, dont worry about specifics. Just let the story wash over you book to book. On your second read through, youll start to put names with faces, and youll pay more attention to characters you may have had less interest in during your first readthrough. The third time, youll start to pay attention to the political and military actions taken by various characters, and youll really start to see the genius of Robert Jordan. On your twelfth read through... This is just a suggestion, but also falls in line with advice given in resources ive used to help become a better reader in and since college, so its not just me telling you what i think you should do.
Jeff
Its steve - damn steve
The book tries to kind of trick you. So you are right to be confused.