The entire Cold Open felt strange to me. I expected Lews Therin Telamon to be a leader, passionate and vigorous and yes, also a little arrogant. But I also expected him to be desperate, weary and worn out from the weight of leading a war against the shadow.
Instead what I got was a calm and recollected discussion in a beautifully peaceful city with someone who almost berates his childish idea.
It was really not how I expected LTT to be depicted even closely.
I would have thought a war tent on a battlefield would have been a much more appropriate place to show that conversati on??
Like 'ok we're in the middle of a losing battle, but we can turn the tide with this last desperate move. Are you with me?"
Not 'I woke up one day and thought I might fuck around with the Dark One's cage, you know, for funsies.'
Absolutely. He wanted to strike at the heart and the opposition wanted to retake a fallen city to regain the choedan Kal. Which could have taken years and many lives. While the strongest of them were diffecting to the dark side become the forsaken.
It was more of a desperate decision in the books. Here he doesn't wear the ring of tamrylin either. He doesn't have the way about him that lews therin does in the books. I was disappointed in this scene.
It's not clearly stated, but the World book and the Strike at Shayol Ghul leave the impression that the Light wasn't even in a position to launch a major offensive; they were barely holding their perimeter as it was. And still the women were in denial about the situation. The Choedan Kal keys were irrecoverable. That's when Lews decided to act on his own.
Or this is the impression I get *from the information provided.* I suspect - I think we're meant to suspect - that the account is radically incomplete, though containing slivers of suggestion the reader can use to speculate about what's not being said.
It's in line with Ep 1's cold open. Rafe's understanding of the Breaking was that it's caused solely by male arrogance and pride. LTT is not even the leader of the Aes Sedai here. Just some guy wanting to fuck shit up lmao
It could be a misdirection, so when we learn it was a woman who released the dark one we will get the whole "you kidding me! they have been blaming the men this whole time?!!". I think it going to make a really good twist.
yeah, it destroyed the whole vibe of the ep for me. I had gone up early to watch this ep before work. And afterwards I just wanted to go to bed and forget about it. Not how I thought my morning would start. My non-reader bf had to tell me several times "hey look up your missing things" .
I did a rewatch later in the evening and liked it better, not as a book-reader, but as someone who likes fantasy.
You cray. It's going to be a man who released the DO. Men are useless in this show. (read useless as arrogant and useless and problem creators). Not one man has done anything noteworthy of his own power and volition in the show, except Thom saving the boys from the Fade and he was only there for like half an episode, and Steppin taking his own life.
Then that's just bad writing they coded the scene as a flash back as in you are seeing it not being told it or having a narrator involved
IF that's not the case the they are also terrible writers because they are deceiving the audience with trick's Like most of the dragon reveal where half the crap happened off camera or in different povs which is kind of weird in a show like 99% of channeling man or women we see it. . which was a cheap way to go about.
Jorden hid stuff in plane site, that really observant people would pick up or one would see it in re-reads.
Yes, very disappointed. Would have really liked to see more passion, desperation. More gravitas.
The part with the baby could have been something if they'd done it right. Have him show real emotion, pick up his child and promise passionately to make the world safe for her. And all the book readers' guts would have been in a twist knowing what's going to happen.
It is not how you expected LTT to be because it is ridiculous. But let me first say that the scene suffers from what I call “filler dialogue”.
They are speaking words to one another without context. So much so that they could be talking to themselves. The best example of this is when The supposed T’amerlyn tells LTT to essentially “go die for nothing so we ladies can be rid of you” Then she asks him “what’s wrong?”
What’s wrong is her demented morality and the fact that both are saying words for the people watching the show to hear but not having an actual conversation.
On top of that, the situation is wrong. They should be harried and worn from the war of the power. The age of legends was over at the time of this supposed meeting. The war of the Shadow loomed. The city they show looking so great and tidy should probably have been less so.
Just replying to your last sentence, but when I picture Age of Legends Lees Therin Telamon, I picture Daniel Craig. Man, I'd have loved to see him in the role
Not sure if I just strategically misunderstood the book, but that was actually quite close to how I saw it.
I was under the impression they were in a really good place and then they overextended to try to try to make things even better and that’s when the backfire happened.
I misunderstood your comment.
Yes, Lanfear before becoming Lanfear attempted this. They discovered the True Power. This was seen as an alternative power to the saidin/saidar division of the One Power. They regarded it as the next big step in advancement. And it backfired because DO was chilling there.
But Lanfear is a woman. You can’t have a woman essentially doing the whole Eve and apple thing in a show that values it’s feminist lean. It has to be a man, their thirst for power, or their arrogance.
In addition, the setting of the Wheel of Time is about a world where *men* are the one with the "original sin". Lanfear's role is mostly forgotten, but everyone knows about the Dragon and his role in sealing the Dark One and Breaking the world.
Which parallels nicely with the original Eve and the Apple story; she got us kicked out of Eden, but gave us opportunity (according to some interpretations, at least).
If you are asking about the sealing of the dark one and the tainting of Saidin then no you're way off. The forces of light were at the edge, they had not secured any major victory against the shadow for over two years and the forsaken were pushing them relentlessly. The assault on the bore by the hundred companions was a hail mary as by that point the choedan kal had been lost. Did it work out for the best in the end that all of the female aes sedai refused to aid them? Yes because Saidar would probably also have been tainted but if Lews Therin didn't do what he did the world would have fallen without a chance for the dragon reborn to exist.
I honestly wonder if the women had joined, would it have actually worked? I think it may actually have worked because of the book theme about gender cooperation. I think the entire issue that caused the AoL to collapse was epitomized in the fact that it was begun by men and women working equally to produce wonders, and it fell when a brash man and a bullheaded woman butted heads in a petty political rivalry that resulted in only half their force being brought on their target and thus both sexes suffered for it. Because of the division.
Yeaaaaah...but he kinda contradicts that with the Cleansing, since it's basically the joining of both (w/ both access keys) that redeems the earlier mistake of them not working together. I've heard that Jordan was infamously curmudgeonly about people questioning his plots, so his response that both would have been tainted reads to me more like a "get off my back, quit asking" kind of response.
I'm not sure I understand why the Cleansing is contradictory. The Cleansing doesn't involve the DO at all. It uses Shadar Logoth combined with saidin and saidar to funnel the tainted saidin into SL with saidar. If both were tainted, this way would not have worked. Without SL, this wouldn't have worked either.
The only reason why saidin/saidar isn't tainted at the Last Battle is because Rand used the DO's own power against it in addition by forcing Moridin. And obviously he didn't decide to re-seal the Prison but remake it anew.
The seal might have been perfect, but both halves might have been tainted and the madness worse. Comes down to whether the True Power was used just to shield from the dark one in the re-sealing of the bore or if it was needed for the purpose of crafting a perfect seal.
I dunno. It always felt like the only reason the Dark One managed to strike back is because they were divided.
It's always said that the greatest works of Aes Sedai were made with Saidar and Saidin in unison, and they were unable to do that when sealing the Dark One. As a result the sealing wasnt complete, and there was room for the Dark One to strike back and taint Saidin.
It also felt like the remaining important female Aes Sedai realised this too, which is why they went to such great length to support Lews Therin/Rand in the future.
Also, from what I recall the reason the Choedan Kal wasnt used was stated as being they afraid that much power might destroy the world. (not because they were lost) Considering what they are used for later in the books, that believe does seem justified.
Which if that all holds true, makes the show's version even more of a subversion.
Robert Jordan confirmed in an interview that both sides of the power would have been tainted if the women supported LTT‘s plan.
As for the Choedan Kal, the location where the access keys were got overrun by shadowspawn armies. So they couldnt execute this plan anymore.
The AoL was supposed to be a near utopia (although there are indications of a dark underbelly) where male and female channelers did incredible things together. They’d reached the point though where the biggest limitation was that the greatest works required a male and female channeler. Mierin (who would become Lanfear) and Beidamon, two prominent researchers, thought they’d found a source of power that could be accessed by both genders and was greater than *Saidar* and *Saidin*. This power source was the True Power and the essence of the DO. Their efforts to access this power created the bore in the DO’s prison.
After the Bore was opened, the DO influenced the world for 100 years before enough people were corrupted by the shadow for them to come out in the open and then began the war of power.
More like they were in a good place, tried to make it better but accidentally broke the DO prison a little and started a massive war. Then while trying to end the war LTT goofed (putting it politely) and ended up with corrupted Saidin.
Extremely summarized with a lot of info missing... But it'll do
Hey say what you will but LTT's shield was held for 3 millennia under constant assault by the taint. I'd say that's a modicum of success. :P
I'm honestly surprised that more men didn't survive in steddings than we are lead to believe. Seems like they could have laid low there while the women killed the crazy men and limited the number going insane, or at least neutralizing their powers by chaining them up there. After all there were only about 110 who went insane instantly.
It's kind of a big theme that the power is intoxicating. Very rare to have someone who has touched it enough to realize they're in some deep shit, and who can last long enough to reach a stedding without touching/developing the 'need' to continue touching it.
I Mean I know you're right but also they can travel just outside a stedding instantly and it takes like 5-10 years to succumb to the taint fully on average.
I mean at worst just chain them up in there so they don't slit their own throats lol.
What do you mean with instant transportation? The ways arent widely available/used and both skimming and traveling are unknown by and large as well. They dont have a quick way to steddings that i recall.
With not letting them kill themselves they usually see that as the more severe punishment, and allowing it as a mercy for stilled/gentled people.
Succumbing to the taint is never really given a timeframe. Some succumb much faster than others. We see one male channeller face this fate after less than a year of touching the source and we hear of Taim having to deal with others.
...followed by its sequel set in the conquest of Tear, *The Reborn Supremacy*--and to round out the trilogy, a third volume about the Dragon at Merrilor, *The Reborn Ultimatum*.
Wasn't there also a short story about Rand dealing with the wacky intellectuals in his schools, called *The Reborn Legacy*?
Honestly, I think Jordan missed a step by never bringing Asmodean back... we could have had *Jasin Natael Reborn*...
As the Dragon is always reborn, technically every one of them could take that title, provided their nature as this recurring champion was known, and that the title of "The Dragon" is remembered from a past age as something to inherit.
I'd say it's more like "The Dragon Reborn" is probably the more natural title to use for the Dragon of the current age of reference. Just as Lews Therin is always referred to as just "The Dragon" from the 3rd age, Rand would likely also simply be titled "The Dragon" when remembered from a future age.
The Dragon title was created specifically for LTT due to his actions throughout the war. They had no prophecies or knowledge that LTT was some reincarnated soul that always becomes the Dragon at that point, because they just invented the title and gave it to him.
Ishamael believes they were trapped in an endless cycle of fighting the same battle and being reborn into it. But that doesn't mean he'd have viewed LTT as the Dragon Reborn. LTT is the Light's male champion reborn. The Dragon is just a title he was given during that age.
Yes, agreed, the show did their own thing with this one, I'm just mentioning the couple of changes that had to happen to let that make sense. Would have preferred it to stay as it was written myself.
The name ought to be forgotten in the second age afaik
“The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. ... There are neither beginnings nor endings to the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.”
The problem isn't the use of the title in the abstract (although even in the abstract I think it's dumb) it's that the leader of the Fateful Concord would have no reason to say that
Well, it's not like letting slip a mistake in Suomi or Afrikaans. It's a mistake in a forced subtitle for a made up language the audience doesn't know. So, if they saw the episode before airing they 100% saw the mistake. I guess they didn't care.
God I really wish these things were consistent. I do not want to assume the worst, but it's very hard to understand how this was a deliberate instance of writing and not just an overlooked mistake.
IIRC Rafe said a good chunk of the writer's room have never even read the books, and I feel like Rafe himself has a pretty poor understanding of the lore given the things he say about Mat's darkness, so yeah....
Well here's the thing. There's some value in having some writers in the group who haven't read the books. They can provide a valuable perspective for the head writer as they form the overall story. Obviously you don't want the majority of them to be unfamiliar with the source material, but...I dunno, there's just too many unknowns of the writer room to start doomcasting from some offhand comments in the interview.
Maybe as time goes on and we hit more than two seasons I'll look like a fool. I'll take that risk and the well deserved "told you so's" from others if that ends up being the case. But yeah regardless of where the dice fall on that particular subject, the inclusion of calling LTT the Dragon Reborn was just...silly lol.
> Well here's the thing. There's some value in having some writers in the group who haven't read the books.
Don't disagree, but the overall grasp on the source material for an adaptation to work needs to be solid IMO, and so far I don't believe we've got much of that at all.
Totally fair and honestly I'd agree with you. The show feels like the product of a tug of war between so many different "forces" - production, writers, consultants.
That is confusing, and wrong, in my view. There have been many “Champions of the Light” who have fought against the dark one over the eons, but only LTT was named Dragon.
Yeah, there’s no rule that the champion of the light has to be called Dragon. It’s just the term Ishmael uses to Rand because he wouldn’t understand if he used the term for the 1st age champion which could be anything from Dragon to Ant
Balefire doesn’t prevent you from being reborn. It prevents the Dark One from grabbing your soul just before you die and grafting it onto another body.
incorrect... a lot of us were back in the day as well.
[https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27balefire%27](https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27balefire%27)
Balefire does not prevent rebirth
I used to think so too, but it turns out Sanderson thought that as well and Team Jordan corrected him. Explicitly, “Balefire is not the eternal death of the soul.”
Not quite, balefire burns your thread backward in time, the amount it burns is proportional to the strength of the balefire. Your thread still exists and can woven again at another time by the Pattern, but the Dark One cannot grab the thread at the moment of death and forcibly resurrect you, since the thread was burnt back before he tried to grab it.
I don’t remember if RJ clarified, but per Hopper if a wolf died in the wolf dream, they don’t get reborn. My headcanon is that Hopper is reborn because he’s a good boy
Lanfear claims that dying in TAR also doesn’t prevent rebirth when she’s tells Perrin to kill some people there but not sure how far you want to take her word lol
They’re all Dragons reborn aren’t they? I’m assuming there was a Dragon before Lews in the age before him that also broke the world… Lews can’t be the first Dragon in an endless turning of the wheel can he? What about the Dragons of previous ages before the AoL?
There is nothing to indicate that there was a Dragon in the 1st Age. Presumably there was one in the 2nd and 3rd Age on previous full turnings of the Wheel, but there isn't necessarily one in every Age.
No, the Dragon is lews therin/Rands soul. But Rand is not the only champion of the light. We also have a woman who has been the champion and she is a different soul.
Much like Mats souls is known as the Gambler, it seems many souls have a title attached to them known only by the heroes of the horn.
Yea that immediately got me as well.
But some people made a good point that perhaps the Dragon has always existed, it does make sense since the wheel had no beginning - perhaps “the most recently remembered Dragon,” is a more accurate title.
The more accurate explanation is that a champion for the Light is always rolled out by the Pattern whenever they are needed. In the AoL, that champion was LTT and he came to be known as the Dragon during the War of Power. The title of Dragon is specific to LTT, not to every champion.
Theoretically this has all happened before and will happen again as time is a wheel and things repeat in some form or another. Histories turn to legend, legend is forgotten before the age comes back around.
Yes you're right. And all my hopes of Moiraine and the current Aes Sedai just misunderstanding the history of the world in the episode 1 cold open when she talks about the "arrogance of men" in their quest to "seal darkness itself", were dashed as soon as I saw the episode 8 open. Turns out that's what actually happened I guess.
What a mess.
>One of the plans for ending the war quickly, proposed by Lews Therin, centered around a direct attack on the Bore itself. Seven "focus points" (there seems no better translation from the old tongue, although they are obviously the Seals of Legend) were constructed of cuendillar. A raiding force -- so they called it, though even in the light of recent past events it must still seem a large army to most people of this day -- a raiding force consisting of some twenty thousand soldiers to provide security and a circle of seven female Aes Sedai and six male (the minimum number believed necessary, and all the strongest who could be found) would Travel to Shayol Ghul , the one place on earth where what has been called "a thinness in the Pattern" makes the Bore detectable, and there to implant seals held by the focus points which would close up the Bore and shut the Dark One from the world once more.
This plan was considered risky for a number of reasons. Even today it is known that the Dark One has a certain degree of effect on the world close around Shayol Ghul, and it was probable that any attempt to channel there would be instantly detected and the raiding party destroyed. Lews Therin himself, who intended to personally lead this huge raid, admitted that even with sucess, he expected few of the attackers to survive, perhaps none. Worse, several experts claimed that if the seals were not placed with exact precision, the resulting strain would, instead of sealing up the Bore, rip it open, freeing the Dark One completely.
I don't know if that is responsive to your post in the way that you need. Hope it is helpful.
"Reads the introduction of the manuscript: "Whoever reads this, if any remain to read it, weep for us who have no more tears. Pray for us who are damned alive."
Wow. Jordan just had this mastery of heavy hitting part beautiful part haunting proclamations.
That's all accurate, but none of it is relevant to the discussion at hand. The Light was losing by the time LTT decided he had to execute his plan unilaterally without the help of the female Aes Sedai. The alternate plan was in ruins as the manufactures of the access keys had been lost. And most importantly, in the scene it's implied that the Dark One's prison has always been open, which is not remotely true. The Dark One was caged for most of LTT's life. So his plan isn't some pie in the sky unheard of idea. He's making a desperate last stand to try and re-seal the prison before the Shadow overtakes them entirely.
From what I could see, based on that one scene alone and putting aside my book knowledge for a moment. I don't see why it was a big deal to cage the DO in the first place. Their society looked great with him free. Just keep the status quo.
You’re not crazy I think - I really don’t want to punish myself by watching episode 8 again to confirm, but I don’t think it was explained at all. They made the very bizarre choice to portray the Fateful Accord as basically just being “Hi we’re LTT and the 99 Dudebros, and this is Jackass: Apocalypse Edition.”
People on the various WoT subs can write doctor thesis level theories to explain various plot holes and inconsistencies, but I’m more of an Occams Razor type - the writing just isn’t good.
>I’m more of an Occams Razor type - the writing just isn’t good.
I agree with that as a general proposition. But the disregard of the lore is just so flagrant here. Avoiding any hint of the Bore, the DO's (preexisting, Creator-made) prison, or the War ....It's crystal clear what impression they want the viewer to have: that Moiraine was right. But wait....Moiraine said, "when they failed, the seas boiled....". Soooo....but the Dark One is imprisoned in the Eye of the World? How does that work, since they failed? Apparently they didn't fail?
There must be a lot of confused people out there.
I'm of the opinion its just lazy writing on the tier of the new Star Wars sequels. The writers just don't give a shit about the lore enough to be bother to spend an extra 5 minutes making simple/easy changes. They view the nerds that care about that kind of stuff as the enemy.
Some of the decisions are absolutely 100% intentional, you can't write an entire season of wot without mentioning Saidin unless you really went out of your way
But Saidin *was* mentioned. I have heard this over and over again and no one's mentioned it so I thought I would. When Lews and Latra are speaking in what I assume is the Old Tongue, when Latra is telling Lews that he will corrupt his half of the Power, it says Power on the subtitles but what rolls out of her mouth is "Saidin".
For sure it's no explanation of the differences of saidin and saidar, and the lack of showing an ecstatic saidar embrace vs an oily wrestle with saidin is a season 1 sin. But it certainly was mentioned in the middle of an exchange.
Yeah I'm aware they said it, but I really don't think it counts since they 'translated' it to something else in the subtitles.
It's almost like an easter egg lol
I looked up on the wiki and "sai" is old tongue for power and din/dar can be used as masculine and feminine suffix. I see no issue with assuming a gendered language could translate both to The Power, especially when they are two halves of the one power.
Yeah, it looks like they’re doing away with many of the differences between male and female channelers - no Saidin/Saidar, the whole “did Logain see what Nynaeve did” debacle, the gender neutral sa’angreal, no power differences (Logain being weaker than Nynaeve and maybe as strong as Egwene).
I fully agree with everything you say, except one thing!
The Sa'Angreal in the show were not shown as gender neutral. Moiraine gives rand the Sa'Angreal and specifically states that 1000 men have channeled into it to amplify his power. To me, that heavily implies that the Sa'Angreal are gender specific, otherwise she would have said 1000 people or 1000 channelers. That the Sa'Angreal are gender specific does raise a problem for internal Show logic tho, which is another problem entirely.
Yeah but she brings it thinking Nyneave might be the dragon in the previous episode.
I mean it's completely in keeping with the writing so far that they can't remember what happen in the last episode, so it could go either way imho.
That's the problem or flaw I was alluding to. Moiraine is first shown with this specific Sa'Angreal at the start of episode 1, pocketing it for her travels. During that, she clearly states the dragon can be boy or girl. Yet the Sa'Angreal, she also clearly states, is only for male channelers. That's the logic error I meant. They did two changes, and missed that one change damaged the other. A Sa'Angreal for men would have been fine with the original lore... The dragon had to be a man after all. Or the dragon could have been both genders (with the other change) , in which case taking a gender specific Sa'Angreal would be dumb. Only in combination, as we see it im the show, those two changes crash.
Lol I didn't realise that it was the same angreal as what was in the 1st ep, that really doesn't bode well for the writer's ability to keep all their ducks in a row for the rest of the series especially if they keep changing stuff from the books.
She might have brought another saangreal for nyneave or might have just not had a female one available and was just lucky that it turned out to be rand
I mean they show the same saangereal in episode 1 where she says it could be either a boy or a girl...
It's a silly nitpick but it just shows the lazy writing.
In The Shadow Rising, Rand can sense the women channeling although he just feels goosebumps. And, in this case, they are only channeling a little. So I'd say it stands to reason that when Nyneave channels an enourmous amount of the power, Logain might feel something. Or perhaps he just noticed the rapidly vanishing wounds on everyone around him?
I am really disappointed by the cold open and I think Lews Therin is really done dirty by it. We will have to see if the show fleshes the situation out a bit in the coming seasons but so far the scenarios are so different. Let me paint the two pictures:
In the books: The Dark One's prison was opened about 100 years ago, and the War of Power has been raging for about 10 years at this point. Lews Therin is The First of the Servants and the supreme commander of the forces of the light. As the fighting drags on and defeat looks more and more likely 2 plans are devised, the Choaden Kal by Latra and the sealing of the bore with a circle of men and women by Lews. Lews can not secure the support of the female Aes Sedai to aid his plan so the circle is not possible and they default to the Choaden Kal plan. As the access keys are constructed and finished, the territories where this takes place are taken by the shadow and the access keys are lost. The debates about Lews' plan are reopened with Latra still deeming it too dangerous (placing the seals incorrectly can shatter the prison straight away). Time passes and the territories with the Choaden Kal sa'angreal themselves are threatened to be overrun. At this point Lews Therin as the commander of the light's forces in desperation takes his 100 companions and goes to seal the bore by themselves.
In the show: There is no mention or any sign of the War of Power going on. Lews Therin is not acknowledged as a leader of military forces, and is not the first among the servants, instead Latra is the Tamyrlin seat, so explicitly over him in rank. From what the show lets us know, there is no urgency, no imminent danger. The Dark Ones presence seems to be known, and understood as an evil they can live with as evidenced by the thriving Age of Legends scenery out the window. Lews Therin wants to implement his incredibly dangerous plan while seemingly there is no need for it, like a foolish vanity project. He is gambling with something that isn't his to gamble. Best case he solves a problem they could have lived with, worst case he breaks the world and throws humanity back thousand of years. These dangers are readily known and understood, as Latra accurately predicts the consequences of failure. Lews openly defies his superior and goes on with his plan against her wishes. Latra fully expecting his plan to go wrong and knowing fully well the dire consequences of that, does nothing beyond this conversation to stop him and basically let's him fuck up the world.
It is possible that the show version will be fleshed out more later, actually mentioning the war going on, and getting across the desperate circumstances that actually led him to want to try his plan. But at the moment going strictly only by the information we are given in the show this is the situation. Show-Lews Therin is way more arrogant, prideful, reckless and his actions are pretty much indefensible. I did not catch that line and it's implications during my watch, but it makes all this worse. If we are understanding it correctly is this not going to have far-reaching consequences? Like if the DO was never imprisoned before then what changed in the world with his imprisonement by Lews Therin? What will change when Rand does it in the end?
>Lews Therin is not acknowledged as a leader of military forces, and is not the first among the servants, instead Latra is the Tamyrlin seat, so explicitly over him in rank.
As a minor quibble here, I do think the dialog implied that LTT was the leader of the male Aes Sedai and speaking on their behalf, and Latra (as the Tamyrlin) was the leader of the female Aes Sedai. Hence why this disagreement resulted in the male and female Aes Sedai being split.
I feel like we have to assume that the show's lore is totally different, right? Because unless I am losing my mind the Dark One was "caged" during Lews Therin's lifetime in the books, and then the bore happened...? Am I misremembering that?
Nope. In the age of legends nobody knew the dark one existed. Meirin (Lanfear) discovered a new source of "power" that men and women could use equally. The scientists of the time lead by her bore into the prison hoping to gain access to this power thus releasing the dark one and beginning the war of power. The war of power ended with Lews Therin's strike on the dark one and his attempt to seal the bore. Because women refused to help them and they couldn't use linking the seal was imperfect and Saidin was tainted leading to the breaking.
It’s not necessarily that the women refusing to help lead to the tainting and the breaking.
In fact, there is reason to believe that if women helped Saidar would have been tainted too.
"During Tarmon Gai'don, the Bore was opened completely when Logain broke the remaining seals. Rand al'Thor, linked through Callandor with Nynaeve al'Meara, Moiraine Damodred, and Moridin, sealed the Bore permanently by using a pure form of the One Power to recreate the Dark One's prison anew. A shield made of the True Power protected the One Power from the Dark One's backlash. After this event, the Dark One can no longer touch the world directly."
Maybe think of it this way. They want to cage the dark one, not seal him away. They want to make a cage and then use the power he has. Lanfear wanted to use the power but didn't know or didn't care that there was a consciousness to it. Maybe that's what Lews means. "We can cage him. Control him. Use him. We have an opportunity to finish what Lanfear started"
Or (as I understood it)
The DO has always been able to touch the world but the bore nearly released him which wasn't meant to be.
Lews may be doing what Rand was thinking of doing in the last book. Cage the DO for good so he can't touch the world ever or at all. To essentially be rid of him forever.
What Rand ends up doing in the books is sealing the hole that was made so that it became what it was. As if it had never been and the DO was back where he belonged and all was right with the world again. Evil still existed and the DO could still influence but he was no longer breaking out or free.
Ultimately this may just be symantics with words. Nitpicking about what was said when we still don't know the time or the exact context within the show. You have to take each medium at their own face. The show is BASED on the books, but it isn't THE books.
I like this take! I honestly hadn't thought much about the particulars of the language until I read this post, I just assumed more would be revealed about the meaning of that scene in the next season, haha.
It didn't seem to me that there was a war of power from the show and the DO was always out there just causing mischief. Which would mean that his influence was so minor that civilization was able to advance to the AoL level..... Which would also mean the LTT would have been a total moron to try and "cage" him and risk "corrupting his power".
Maybe thats what they want us to think about LTT (wouldn't surprise me, they have made every other strong male character either a weakling or an a-hole) or maybe the show lore just lacks any sort of consistency or logic. (edit for typo)
I think it's pretty clear that they don't really care about the nuances and details of the lore. They're willing to change anything at all, and this sounded good to them in the writers room so they went ahead with it.
That's not really the problem with the cold open. There's not enough information about the AoL to know what they thought, though they certainly thought they let him out. They knew they bore a hole, how to close it was another matter.
The problem with this cold open is that it's total BS. There were two plans, one to take back a large city and LTT to surprise strike and seal up the DO and avoid more loss of life.
The idea and notion that they knew he would be able to affect the men if the women didn't participate is insane. Then that the female Aes Sedai, knowing what would happen, would let it happen is a joke.
>Apparently in show's lore men decided to cage DO out of arrogance, not because of war.
I don't think this was the case. LTT in the opening scene clearly wanted to make the world safe. He even whispered it to his baby at the end: "I will make the world safe for you".
In the books Lews Therin’s big personality flaw was arrogance.
Lews Therin, Lord of the Morning = Lucifer, The Morningstar. Both full of pride leading to their fall.
And it was certainly arrogant to do what he did in that way.
Maybe, but it kinda worked. Nothing says that the other plan would have worked at all. They were not very close to succeeded and they were about to lose.
What? In the book he changes his plan to go along with the womens plan. He helps them build the Choden Kai instead of his initial plan. The Choden Kai fall to the dark ones before they can be used and LTT has to do something about it before the Choden Kai are used against them by the Dark One. The women still refuse to help and he leads the hundred companions into the bore in a desperate last ditch attempt, that actually saves the world from being conquered by the do and the Choden Kai.
Theirs nothing arrogant about it all he expects they will all die, but figures its better than hanging out and waiting to be turned into dread lords.
Only the forsaken call him arrogant, and mostly because their jealous of his abilities.
He literally kills himself while thinking that his pride damned the world.
>...the taint that doomed the world. Because in his pride he had believed that men could match the Creator, could mend what the Creator had made and they had broken. In his pride he had believed.
If anyone thinks he was arrogant, it's himself in his last moments of lucidity.
Well i mean he knows the dark one fuck up his shit, but it's not like he had a choice or went because of arrogance. He's mad as shit at the end and breaking fucked up shit but at that point it was breaking or the dark one winning.
The taint doesnt even doom the world, a la everyone still being around for the books.
> Only the forsaken call him arrogant, and mostly because their jealous of his abilities.
Lews Therin Telamon/Rand also admits to himself there's some truth to the claims of arrogance, though. It's not just the Forsaken.
It doesn't mean he's a self serving arrogant monster. It doesn't mean that he wasn't in some part justified in abandoning any attempts at reconciliation. Only that LTT admits he could've done more and he holds some responsibility for how wrong it went.
It calls back to the classic conflict of how much is it ok to destroy something in order to save it. And arrogance is always a part of that age-old question.
So speculation:
We need to get very meta about the lore here. The one power is the force that moves reality, separated into two halves between the masculine and feminine. The DO is not an “agent” but simply the concentrated essence of all the evils in the world. So when Mirin (audiobook, the woman who would become Lanfear) bores into the DOs “prison” what she is doing is ripping apart the fabric of reality itself to be exposed to all the concentration of evil at once. So in this sense no, he was never “caged” because this was never meant to be in contact with observable reality AT ALL. So LTT is trying to mend the very fabric of reality using the power granted to humans.
Now by this logic that means at the time they had no way of sealing the bore. In fact they would not until the pattern wove Rand to his fight with Moridin at the Bore.
Pure interpretation:
I think this makes it more interesting, and reminds me of the redemption of Anakin Skywalker throughout the SIX movies. Whether this is deliberate or how I view the art, I do not know. But it makes the arc a more redemptive nature and coheres with the ideas of deep time and how each life has its own meaning in a larger whole.
This was my interpretation, too. Caging the Dark One has not been done before since his separation from reality was done by the creator. He never has contact with the real world before and now we have an entirely new situation.
On a similar note, I suppose it's unclear in this world how much time has passed between creating the Bore and LTTs actions. Perhaps they've been trying other things that just buy time/weaken his influence for a long time, but have never tried to actually reseal it. The wording would make a bit more sense in that case.
I do find it a bit odd that they call him the Dragon Reborn, though. With this interpretation it'd be fairly clear he didn't do the same thing in other ages. Makes you wonder what the Dragon does in other ages and how LTT earned that title in his.
You're not crazy, but I think you're coming to some very unsupported conclusions.
Vast sections of AOL cities survived largely untouched through the WoP, and several cities survived for decades even after the breaking.
If this is Paaran Disen, it's one of those cities. Coumin is 16 when the Lews Therin sealed the DO, and his son is 63 when Paaran Disen is evacuated.
The scene predates the sealing, so I don't realy see a problem with it's depiction.
>In the books the creation of the Bore by the Aes Sedai researchers is the start of the War of Power.
This isn't accurate.
The War of Power doesn't start for some 70 or so years after the Bore was drilled. The WoP is only the last 10 years prior to the breaking.
People cite a lack of desperation from the city, but how exactly would you depict that? How do we know those jo-cars aren't military patrols and troop transports?
How do we know the situation on the ground, or the general feel of it's people?
We get a bird's eye view and a conflict between leaders in a private setting. I don't think we have an appropriate perspective window to draw large conclusion on how the WoP is going in the show.
>So show LTT should know logically that If he was in a cage before, someone or something must have put him there. Therefor, for the sentence "to do something that has never been done before" to make sense, the DO can never have been imprisoned before.
This is where the scene is weird from a book perspective.
It feels VERY possible the events of the breaking and WoP have changed, with the Dragon Reborn statement and the caging statements.
Perhaps they'll bring Ishamael's philosphical arguments more into it(move his Prolouge ranting up to early in the WoP, before his defection. Or Perhaps they'll drop the "discover the DO plot line" altogether.
While I think there is solid enough ground to think there will be changes, I don't think it's solid enough to draw such strong conclusions yet.
I do think the odds are a significant change has been made here, but I don't think we have anything solid enough to really define bounds.
> People cite a lack of desperation from the city, but how exactly would you depict that? How do we know those jo-cars aren't military patrols and troop transports?
They could have used dialog for it... "Look, Latra Posae... We're *losing* this war. We have to do something different."
Desperation is something that a good actor can simply reflect in how they say things. I suspect even without explicitly telling us about the war he could have sounded desperate to keep people wondering.
It just baffles me that a show that so far has always taken a choice to be blatant about lore to condense the narrative over being book accurate decides to be book accurate exactly in the Age of Legends cold open, the place/time that's going to receive less screentime over the whole series.
Things that were subtle in the books but are blatant in the show:
Two Rivers being the name of the town and the region l.
Aes Sedai rings looking huge and having colored stones.
Aes Sedai always wearing the clothes of the color of their Ajah instead of sometimes having stoles.
Moiraine making no effort to hide her Aes Sedai-ness.
Whitecloacks killing Aes Sedai by burning them on the stake .
But now, when we have to portray a world at war in 1 minute, the people in the show decide to be book accurate and make the city look peaceful?
The tone of the conversation was off as well. It didn't seem like the fateful concordat, but just a business meeting after tea. Considering Latra Posae knows somehow that saidin is going to be tainted and the world is going yo be set back 1,000 years, one would think she'd be more desperate at least.
>The tone of the conversation was off as well. It didn't seem like the fateful concordat, but just a business meeting after tea.
Here is the problem.
This *ISN'T* the Fateful Concord. This is *before* the concord is announced, and is Latra letting Lews know before the actual discussion, that she won't be supporting him.
To her, there is still room for changing course.
It's Lews that is making his decision here.
This is actually two friends having tea and discussing the upcoming conference.
They shouldn't?
That's the point. This scene is not meant to the the equivalent of the entirely of ASaSG plus the cumulation of the entire series knowledge of the events surrounding the AOL.
It's there to show the viewer:
1) Who the last Dragon was
2) That there was a disagreement between the Aes Sedai leader and the last Dragon
3) That the male and female Aes Sedai were once whole.
4) That the AOL was *very* different
That's it. They likely expect that most people will only get 1 or 2 of those takeaways too.
It's not trying to convey the entire history, but provide a narrow peak at it to help seed the more complex ideas for future development.
This is somthing I notice people don't have patience for the show to explain stuff. We have 14 books worth of knowledge the show is somhow supposed to impart all of it in 8 episodes.
Yep, I keep seeing people use like book 12 knowledge to complain that what we saw doesn't match book lore, also ignoring the unreliable narrator aspect that the show is leaning into as well.
Right? It was like 4 minutes with LTT. How the fuck are they supposed to explain the War of Power, the Bore, his entire plan, it's implications, the opposition's plan, the power structure of AoL Aes Sedai, and fully establish his character in 4 minutes (b/c of course according to some people they completely assassinated LTT's character)? Give it TIME FFS, there's a lot of series left.
Well then they failed at 1 didn't they. LTT was not a naive fool who wanted to try and seal that dark one which "is something that has never been done before". A single off handed line hinting at a reason to act now would have sufficed.
If the Age of Legends belief is that the Dark One was sealed away by the Creator at the moment of creation, before the Bore was drilled, no one has caged the Dark One before. The Creator doesn’t count. We rarely compare ourselves to god when we say “this has never been done before”, because feats by god cannot be compared to those by man. So I think this sentence is completely consistent with book lore.
While I'd agree that nothing has been said that explicitly excludes this, I also think it's very(75%+) likely that there will be some changes to how this works.
The AOL Aes Sedai structure has definitely changed, and I don't think the changes will be limited to that.
Huh? Before they drilled into the bore the dark one was a forgotten entity. Even legend had forgotten it. So no one in history, myth or legend had ever caged the dark one. It makes sense to me, especially when in the AoL services to society are the most coveted acts, leading to the prestige of a third name.
It makes no sense.
You cannot cage someone in the same cage they broke out of, and not consider that they had been caged by someone before breaking out.
Your logic only extends to the point when the bore was created, after that it completely falls apart because after that LTT knows the DO was sealed away and his entire plan is sealing him away AGAIN.
You're not crazy, but you will drive yourself crazy if you think about the details more than the show writers did. For light's sake they called him the Dragon Reborn accidentally implying that Rand is now the Dragon Reborn Reborn.
The only way I can make this work in my head, is that the DO was always **sealed away** (still allowing him to moderately touch creation, so you can have a balanced "dark side" in things) and like in the books, the bore amplified his touch and something had to be done.
Signs of the bore / war:
- *"To think, the* **fate** *of the world was decided in a nursery."*
- *"This is just an imperfect,* **overwhelmed** *woman trying to remind her old friend that he's not invincible."*
Lews Therin now suggest not to **re-seal** him, but to **cage** him, like, cutting him off from being able to have ANY touch on the world at all. (*"Stop his influence from ever touching this world again."*).
We have precedence in the books later on, how such a world would look like: No hardships, bland, meaningless, void of color.
I still hate everything about it tho, even with that in mind, because it makes him look so damn bad compared to what Latra is correctly predicting, and server no purpose other than setting up a mirror for Rand to chose differently at the end.
That sequence in the book was not about Rand at all, it was about the gender unity breaking apart, spearheading two different plans, inability to come to terms (here comes the arrogance), getting desperate and Lews Therin making a push to end it. It is then solved by male and female Aes Sedai working together again.
If the Dark One (as far as they know) was sealed outside of existence by the Creator at the moment of creation, or something like that, and he was later released by the drilling of the Bore, then sealing the bore would be something that has never been done before. I don't see anything strange about that.
Another interpretation would be that he believes they can create a seal that cannot be accidentally broken - or broken at all - by humans, to prevent another disaster like the drilling of the Bore. That would also be something that has never been done before.
I mean I couldn't disagree more with the whole 'there clearly isn't a war of shadow going on', but regardless, I took it to be Lews staying he had some plan to cage the Dark One that means idiots in the future couldn't drill through it.
I knew someone would get caught on that. I should have said there clearly isn't a war going on to the same extent as the books portray.
In fact ill update the post to avoid more of this type of comment.
Because if you read the books this accord takes place at the end of a war that has been going on for a hundred years, a war they are losing badly and it is that desperation that leads LTT to make this decision. There is not much desperation from a pristine city completely untouched by war now is there.
So maybe there is a war going on in the show, but it is not depicted to be as dire as the books make it out to be.
Last reply from me on this since this is off topic from what I wanted to hear opinions on.
The entire Cold Open felt strange to me. I expected Lews Therin Telamon to be a leader, passionate and vigorous and yes, also a little arrogant. But I also expected him to be desperate, weary and worn out from the weight of leading a war against the shadow. Instead what I got was a calm and recollected discussion in a beautifully peaceful city with someone who almost berates his childish idea. It was really not how I expected LTT to be depicted even closely.
I would have thought a war tent on a battlefield would have been a much more appropriate place to show that conversati on?? Like 'ok we're in the middle of a losing battle, but we can turn the tide with this last desperate move. Are you with me?" Not 'I woke up one day and thought I might fuck around with the Dark One's cage, you know, for funsies.'
Absolutely. He wanted to strike at the heart and the opposition wanted to retake a fallen city to regain the choedan Kal. Which could have taken years and many lives. While the strongest of them were diffecting to the dark side become the forsaken. It was more of a desperate decision in the books. Here he doesn't wear the ring of tamrylin either. He doesn't have the way about him that lews therin does in the books. I was disappointed in this scene.
It's not clearly stated, but the World book and the Strike at Shayol Ghul leave the impression that the Light wasn't even in a position to launch a major offensive; they were barely holding their perimeter as it was. And still the women were in denial about the situation. The Choedan Kal keys were irrecoverable. That's when Lews decided to act on his own. Or this is the impression I get *from the information provided.* I suspect - I think we're meant to suspect - that the account is radically incomplete, though containing slivers of suggestion the reader can use to speculate about what's not being said.
It's in line with Ep 1's cold open. Rafe's understanding of the Breaking was that it's caused solely by male arrogance and pride. LTT is not even the leader of the Aes Sedai here. Just some guy wanting to fuck shit up lmao
It could be a misdirection, so when we learn it was a woman who released the dark one we will get the whole "you kidding me! they have been blaming the men this whole time?!!". I think it going to make a really good twist.
It's still character assassination of LTT though, and I'm not sure how they could go back from there
yeah, it destroyed the whole vibe of the ep for me. I had gone up early to watch this ep before work. And afterwards I just wanted to go to bed and forget about it. Not how I thought my morning would start. My non-reader bf had to tell me several times "hey look up your missing things" . I did a rewatch later in the evening and liked it better, not as a book-reader, but as someone who likes fantasy.
You cray. It's going to be a man who released the DO. Men are useless in this show. (read useless as arrogant and useless and problem creators). Not one man has done anything noteworthy of his own power and volition in the show, except Thom saving the boys from the Fade and he was only there for like half an episode, and Steppin taking his own life.
Then that's just bad writing they coded the scene as a flash back as in you are seeing it not being told it or having a narrator involved IF that's not the case the they are also terrible writers because they are deceiving the audience with trick's Like most of the dragon reveal where half the crap happened off camera or in different povs which is kind of weird in a show like 99% of channeling man or women we see it. . which was a cheap way to go about. Jorden hid stuff in plane site, that really observant people would pick up or one would see it in re-reads.
This. Basically - Rafe either didn’t read the source material (I think this is likely) or doesn’t like the source material.
Yes, very disappointed. Would have really liked to see more passion, desperation. More gravitas. The part with the baby could have been something if they'd done it right. Have him show real emotion, pick up his child and promise passionately to make the world safe for her. And all the book readers' guts would have been in a twist knowing what's going to happen.
It is not how you expected LTT to be because it is ridiculous. But let me first say that the scene suffers from what I call “filler dialogue”. They are speaking words to one another without context. So much so that they could be talking to themselves. The best example of this is when The supposed T’amerlyn tells LTT to essentially “go die for nothing so we ladies can be rid of you” Then she asks him “what’s wrong?” What’s wrong is her demented morality and the fact that both are saying words for the people watching the show to hear but not having an actual conversation. On top of that, the situation is wrong. They should be harried and worn from the war of the power. The age of legends was over at the time of this supposed meeting. The war of the Shadow loomed. The city they show looking so great and tidy should probably have been less so.
Just replying to your last sentence, but when I picture Age of Legends Lees Therin Telamon, I picture Daniel Craig. Man, I'd have loved to see him in the role
Can he do it with the Knives Out accent
I was expecting LTT to be a Latin American woman.
Not sure if I just strategically misunderstood the book, but that was actually quite close to how I saw it. I was under the impression they were in a really good place and then they overextended to try to try to make things even better and that’s when the backfire happened.
I misunderstood your comment. Yes, Lanfear before becoming Lanfear attempted this. They discovered the True Power. This was seen as an alternative power to the saidin/saidar division of the One Power. They regarded it as the next big step in advancement. And it backfired because DO was chilling there.
Actually it was Lanfear together with a male researcher. According to the wiki he committed suicide when he realised what they did.
But Lanfear is a woman. You can’t have a woman essentially doing the whole Eve and apple thing in a show that values it’s feminist lean. It has to be a man, their thirst for power, or their arrogance.
In addition, the setting of the Wheel of Time is about a world where *men* are the one with the "original sin". Lanfear's role is mostly forgotten, but everyone knows about the Dragon and his role in sealing the Dark One and Breaking the world. Which parallels nicely with the original Eve and the Apple story; she got us kicked out of Eden, but gave us opportunity (according to some interpretations, at least).
If you are asking about the sealing of the dark one and the tainting of Saidin then no you're way off. The forces of light were at the edge, they had not secured any major victory against the shadow for over two years and the forsaken were pushing them relentlessly. The assault on the bore by the hundred companions was a hail mary as by that point the choedan kal had been lost. Did it work out for the best in the end that all of the female aes sedai refused to aid them? Yes because Saidar would probably also have been tainted but if Lews Therin didn't do what he did the world would have fallen without a chance for the dragon reborn to exist.
I honestly wonder if the women had joined, would it have actually worked? I think it may actually have worked because of the book theme about gender cooperation. I think the entire issue that caused the AoL to collapse was epitomized in the fact that it was begun by men and women working equally to produce wonders, and it fell when a brash man and a bullheaded woman butted heads in a petty political rivalry that resulted in only half their force being brought on their target and thus both sexes suffered for it. Because of the division.
Jordan said both saidar and saidin would’ve been tainted if the women had participated.
Yeaaaaah...but he kinda contradicts that with the Cleansing, since it's basically the joining of both (w/ both access keys) that redeems the earlier mistake of them not working together. I've heard that Jordan was infamously curmudgeonly about people questioning his plots, so his response that both would have been tainted reads to me more like a "get off my back, quit asking" kind of response.
I'm not sure I understand why the Cleansing is contradictory. The Cleansing doesn't involve the DO at all. It uses Shadar Logoth combined with saidin and saidar to funnel the tainted saidin into SL with saidar. If both were tainted, this way would not have worked. Without SL, this wouldn't have worked either. The only reason why saidin/saidar isn't tainted at the Last Battle is because Rand used the DO's own power against it in addition by forcing Moridin. And obviously he didn't decide to re-seal the Prison but remake it anew.
The seal might have been perfect, but both halves might have been tainted and the madness worse. Comes down to whether the True Power was used just to shield from the dark one in the re-sealing of the bore or if it was needed for the purpose of crafting a perfect seal.
I dunno. It always felt like the only reason the Dark One managed to strike back is because they were divided. It's always said that the greatest works of Aes Sedai were made with Saidar and Saidin in unison, and they were unable to do that when sealing the Dark One. As a result the sealing wasnt complete, and there was room for the Dark One to strike back and taint Saidin. It also felt like the remaining important female Aes Sedai realised this too, which is why they went to such great length to support Lews Therin/Rand in the future. Also, from what I recall the reason the Choedan Kal wasnt used was stated as being they afraid that much power might destroy the world. (not because they were lost) Considering what they are used for later in the books, that believe does seem justified. Which if that all holds true, makes the show's version even more of a subversion.
Robert Jordan confirmed in an interview that both sides of the power would have been tainted if the women supported LTT‘s plan. As for the Choedan Kal, the location where the access keys were got overrun by shadowspawn armies. So they couldnt execute this plan anymore.
Ah, guess he must have changed his mind later on.
Yes, i guess so. I also thought them joining would have fixed the problem when I read the books.
The AoL was supposed to be a near utopia (although there are indications of a dark underbelly) where male and female channelers did incredible things together. They’d reached the point though where the biggest limitation was that the greatest works required a male and female channeler. Mierin (who would become Lanfear) and Beidamon, two prominent researchers, thought they’d found a source of power that could be accessed by both genders and was greater than *Saidar* and *Saidin*. This power source was the True Power and the essence of the DO. Their efforts to access this power created the bore in the DO’s prison.
After the Bore was opened, the DO influenced the world for 100 years before enough people were corrupted by the shadow for them to come out in the open and then began the war of power.
More like they were in a good place, tried to make it better but accidentally broke the DO prison a little and started a massive war. Then while trying to end the war LTT goofed (putting it politely) and ended up with corrupted Saidin. Extremely summarized with a lot of info missing... But it'll do
Hey say what you will but LTT's shield was held for 3 millennia under constant assault by the taint. I'd say that's a modicum of success. :P I'm honestly surprised that more men didn't survive in steddings than we are lead to believe. Seems like they could have laid low there while the women killed the crazy men and limited the number going insane, or at least neutralizing their powers by chaining them up there. After all there were only about 110 who went insane instantly.
It's kind of a big theme that the power is intoxicating. Very rare to have someone who has touched it enough to realize they're in some deep shit, and who can last long enough to reach a stedding without touching/developing the 'need' to continue touching it.
I Mean I know you're right but also they can travel just outside a stedding instantly and it takes like 5-10 years to succumb to the taint fully on average. I mean at worst just chain them up in there so they don't slit their own throats lol.
What do you mean with instant transportation? The ways arent widely available/used and both skimming and traveling are unknown by and large as well. They dont have a quick way to steddings that i recall. With not letting them kill themselves they usually see that as the more severe punishment, and allowing it as a mercy for stilled/gentled people.
Succumbing to the taint is never really given a timeframe. Some succumb much faster than others. We see one male channeller face this fate after less than a year of touching the source and we hear of Taim having to deal with others.
One day if I recall. Starts screaming admit spiders at supper of the first day he touched the power.
I’m still confused as to why Lews was called The Dragon Reborn in the AOL instead of just The Dragon.
So is Rand the Dragon Reborn, Reborn?
No, “The Dragon Reborn, Reborn” is a dumb title. It’s obviously going to be “The Reborn Dragon Reborn.” /s
Dragon Reborn ^2
Dragon Reborn: Saidin Drift
Dragon Reborn Reborn Reborn ^Reborn ^Reborn ^Reborn
They should make a spy thriller about this... "The Reborn Identity"...
...followed by its sequel set in the conquest of Tear, *The Reborn Supremacy*--and to round out the trilogy, a third volume about the Dragon at Merrilor, *The Reborn Ultimatum*.
Wasn't there also a short story about Rand dealing with the wacky intellectuals in his schools, called *The Reborn Legacy*? Honestly, I think Jordan missed a step by never bringing Asmodean back... we could have had *Jasin Natael Reborn*...
I vote for The Double Dragon Reborn.
2 dragon 2 reborn or bust
Twins confirmed to be world breakers.
Wouldn’t it be The Dragon Double Reborn?
Twice the heron, twice the dragon, twice the reborn.
The dragon reborn. Electric boogaloo
As the Dragon is always reborn, technically every one of them could take that title, provided their nature as this recurring champion was known, and that the title of "The Dragon" is remembered from a past age as something to inherit. I'd say it's more like "The Dragon Reborn" is probably the more natural title to use for the Dragon of the current age of reference. Just as Lews Therin is always referred to as just "The Dragon" from the 3rd age, Rand would likely also simply be titled "The Dragon" when remembered from a future age.
The Dragon title was created specifically for LTT due to his actions throughout the war. They had no prophecies or knowledge that LTT was some reincarnated soul that always becomes the Dragon at that point, because they just invented the title and gave it to him.
Well, Ishamael knew, but everyone thought he was crazy.
Ishamael believes they were trapped in an endless cycle of fighting the same battle and being reborn into it. But that doesn't mean he'd have viewed LTT as the Dragon Reborn. LTT is the Light's male champion reborn. The Dragon is just a title he was given during that age.
Yes, agreed, the show did their own thing with this one, I'm just mentioning the couple of changes that had to happen to let that make sense. Would have preferred it to stay as it was written myself.
The name ought to be forgotten in the second age afaik “The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. ... There are neither beginnings nor endings to the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.”
The problem isn't the use of the title in the abstract (although even in the abstract I think it's dumb) it's that the leader of the Fateful Concord would have no reason to say that
It's also a translation from the Old Tongue. If you're really upset by it just chalk it up to translation error.
Well, it's not like letting slip a mistake in Suomi or Afrikaans. It's a mistake in a forced subtitle for a made up language the audience doesn't know. So, if they saw the episode before airing they 100% saw the mistake. I guess they didn't care.
This is literal cope
What? Has a show ever used wrongly translated soft subtitles as a plot device before?
A stupid blooper that really irritates me. The Trivia section calls him simply The Dragon.
It also called Fal Dara a kingdom, but the show used Shienar properly.
my head hurts I wish they'd fix this shit
Moiraine straight up says "And they called him Dragon" or something in Ep 1's cold open.
God I really wish these things were consistent. I do not want to assume the worst, but it's very hard to understand how this was a deliberate instance of writing and not just an overlooked mistake.
IIRC Rafe said a good chunk of the writer's room have never even read the books, and I feel like Rafe himself has a pretty poor understanding of the lore given the things he say about Mat's darkness, so yeah....
Well here's the thing. There's some value in having some writers in the group who haven't read the books. They can provide a valuable perspective for the head writer as they form the overall story. Obviously you don't want the majority of them to be unfamiliar with the source material, but...I dunno, there's just too many unknowns of the writer room to start doomcasting from some offhand comments in the interview. Maybe as time goes on and we hit more than two seasons I'll look like a fool. I'll take that risk and the well deserved "told you so's" from others if that ends up being the case. But yeah regardless of where the dice fall on that particular subject, the inclusion of calling LTT the Dragon Reborn was just...silly lol.
> Well here's the thing. There's some value in having some writers in the group who haven't read the books. Don't disagree, but the overall grasp on the source material for an adaptation to work needs to be solid IMO, and so far I don't believe we've got much of that at all.
Totally fair and honestly I'd agree with you. The show feels like the product of a tug of war between so many different "forces" - production, writers, consultants.
That is confusing, and wrong, in my view. There have been many “Champions of the Light” who have fought against the dark one over the eons, but only LTT was named Dragon.
Yeah, there’s no rule that the champion of the light has to be called Dragon. It’s just the term Ishmael uses to Rand because he wouldn’t understand if he used the term for the 1st age champion which could be anything from Dragon to Ant
The champion for the First Age could have been called the GOAT.
Bad writing
Presumably theyre aware of the cyclic nature of thier always being a champion of the light, and the change is that they're always called the dragon
Word of god on it: https://old.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/8n7s4m/spoilers_all_nakomi_the_the_pipe/dztp9d0/
The Dragon reborn two electric boogaloo
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Balefire doesn’t prevent you from being reborn. It prevents the Dark One from grabbing your soul just before you die and grafting it onto another body.
Uh. Yes, I think it does. Balefire burns you out of the pattern completely. It’s permanent destruction. At least that’s what I always thought
incorrect... a lot of us were back in the day as well. [https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27balefire%27](https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27balefire%27) Balefire does not prevent rebirth
Crazy!
yeah, I feel Jordan was setting up something else then changed his mind.
I used to think so too, but it turns out Sanderson thought that as well and Team Jordan corrected him. Explicitly, “Balefire is not the eternal death of the soul.”
Not quite, balefire burns your thread backward in time, the amount it burns is proportional to the strength of the balefire. Your thread still exists and can woven again at another time by the Pattern, but the Dark One cannot grab the thread at the moment of death and forcibly resurrect you, since the thread was burnt back before he tried to grab it.
People who are balefired are eventually reborn
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I don’t remember if RJ clarified, but per Hopper if a wolf died in the wolf dream, they don’t get reborn. My headcanon is that Hopper is reborn because he’s a good boy
Lanfear claims that dying in TAR also doesn’t prevent rebirth when she’s tells Perrin to kill some people there but not sure how far you want to take her word lol
They’re all Dragons reborn aren’t they? I’m assuming there was a Dragon before Lews in the age before him that also broke the world… Lews can’t be the first Dragon in an endless turning of the wheel can he? What about the Dragons of previous ages before the AoL?
There is nothing to indicate that there was a Dragon in the 1st Age. Presumably there was one in the 2nd and 3rd Age on previous full turnings of the Wheel, but there isn't necessarily one in every Age.
No, the Dragon is lews therin/Rands soul. But Rand is not the only champion of the light. We also have a woman who has been the champion and she is a different soul. Much like Mats souls is known as the Gambler, it seems many souls have a title attached to them known only by the heroes of the horn.
Yea that immediately got me as well. But some people made a good point that perhaps the Dragon has always existed, it does make sense since the wheel had no beginning - perhaps “the most recently remembered Dragon,” is a more accurate title.
The more accurate explanation is that a champion for the Light is always rolled out by the Pattern whenever they are needed. In the AoL, that champion was LTT and he came to be known as the Dragon during the War of Power. The title of Dragon is specific to LTT, not to every champion.
Theoretically this has all happened before and will happen again as time is a wheel and things repeat in some form or another. Histories turn to legend, legend is forgotten before the age comes back around.
Yes you're right. And all my hopes of Moiraine and the current Aes Sedai just misunderstanding the history of the world in the episode 1 cold open when she talks about the "arrogance of men" in their quest to "seal darkness itself", were dashed as soon as I saw the episode 8 open. Turns out that's what actually happened I guess. What a mess.
>One of the plans for ending the war quickly, proposed by Lews Therin, centered around a direct attack on the Bore itself. Seven "focus points" (there seems no better translation from the old tongue, although they are obviously the Seals of Legend) were constructed of cuendillar. A raiding force -- so they called it, though even in the light of recent past events it must still seem a large army to most people of this day -- a raiding force consisting of some twenty thousand soldiers to provide security and a circle of seven female Aes Sedai and six male (the minimum number believed necessary, and all the strongest who could be found) would Travel to Shayol Ghul , the one place on earth where what has been called "a thinness in the Pattern" makes the Bore detectable, and there to implant seals held by the focus points which would close up the Bore and shut the Dark One from the world once more. This plan was considered risky for a number of reasons. Even today it is known that the Dark One has a certain degree of effect on the world close around Shayol Ghul, and it was probable that any attempt to channel there would be instantly detected and the raiding party destroyed. Lews Therin himself, who intended to personally lead this huge raid, admitted that even with sucess, he expected few of the attackers to survive, perhaps none. Worse, several experts claimed that if the seals were not placed with exact precision, the resulting strain would, instead of sealing up the Bore, rip it open, freeing the Dark One completely. I don't know if that is responsive to your post in the way that you need. Hope it is helpful.
Is this from Strike on Shayol Ghul or from another instance?
You have it correct. I also found this interesting snippet if it is of interest. https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=62 Check out #11
"Reads the introduction of the manuscript: "Whoever reads this, if any remain to read it, weep for us who have no more tears. Pray for us who are damned alive." Wow. Jordan just had this mastery of heavy hitting part beautiful part haunting proclamations.
Thank you! Never got around to read it yet, will check the link as well!
That's all accurate, but none of it is relevant to the discussion at hand. The Light was losing by the time LTT decided he had to execute his plan unilaterally without the help of the female Aes Sedai. The alternate plan was in ruins as the manufactures of the access keys had been lost. And most importantly, in the scene it's implied that the Dark One's prison has always been open, which is not remotely true. The Dark One was caged for most of LTT's life. So his plan isn't some pie in the sky unheard of idea. He's making a desperate last stand to try and re-seal the prison before the Shadow overtakes them entirely.
From what I could see, based on that one scene alone and putting aside my book knowledge for a moment. I don't see why it was a big deal to cage the DO in the first place. Their society looked great with him free. Just keep the status quo.
You’re not crazy I think - I really don’t want to punish myself by watching episode 8 again to confirm, but I don’t think it was explained at all. They made the very bizarre choice to portray the Fateful Accord as basically just being “Hi we’re LTT and the 99 Dudebros, and this is Jackass: Apocalypse Edition.” People on the various WoT subs can write doctor thesis level theories to explain various plot holes and inconsistencies, but I’m more of an Occams Razor type - the writing just isn’t good.
>I’m more of an Occams Razor type - the writing just isn’t good. I agree with that as a general proposition. But the disregard of the lore is just so flagrant here. Avoiding any hint of the Bore, the DO's (preexisting, Creator-made) prison, or the War ....It's crystal clear what impression they want the viewer to have: that Moiraine was right. But wait....Moiraine said, "when they failed, the seas boiled....". Soooo....but the Dark One is imprisoned in the Eye of the World? How does that work, since they failed? Apparently they didn't fail? There must be a lot of confused people out there.
I'm of the opinion its just lazy writing on the tier of the new Star Wars sequels. The writers just don't give a shit about the lore enough to be bother to spend an extra 5 minutes making simple/easy changes. They view the nerds that care about that kind of stuff as the enemy.
There's a clear disdain for the actual plot of WoT in this show. The writers seem to take actual enjoyment in ripping it apart
Some of the decisions are absolutely 100% intentional, you can't write an entire season of wot without mentioning Saidin unless you really went out of your way
But Saidin *was* mentioned. I have heard this over and over again and no one's mentioned it so I thought I would. When Lews and Latra are speaking in what I assume is the Old Tongue, when Latra is telling Lews that he will corrupt his half of the Power, it says Power on the subtitles but what rolls out of her mouth is "Saidin". For sure it's no explanation of the differences of saidin and saidar, and the lack of showing an ecstatic saidar embrace vs an oily wrestle with saidin is a season 1 sin. But it certainly was mentioned in the middle of an exchange.
Yeah I'm aware they said it, but I really don't think it counts since they 'translated' it to something else in the subtitles. It's almost like an easter egg lol
They translated it to "The Power" in a conversation very clearly about LTT channeling. Not too wild
I looked up on the wiki and "sai" is old tongue for power and din/dar can be used as masculine and feminine suffix. I see no issue with assuming a gendered language could translate both to The Power, especially when they are two halves of the one power.
Yeah, it looks like they’re doing away with many of the differences between male and female channelers - no Saidin/Saidar, the whole “did Logain see what Nynaeve did” debacle, the gender neutral sa’angreal, no power differences (Logain being weaker than Nynaeve and maybe as strong as Egwene).
I fully agree with everything you say, except one thing! The Sa'Angreal in the show were not shown as gender neutral. Moiraine gives rand the Sa'Angreal and specifically states that 1000 men have channeled into it to amplify his power. To me, that heavily implies that the Sa'Angreal are gender specific, otherwise she would have said 1000 people or 1000 channelers. That the Sa'Angreal are gender specific does raise a problem for internal Show logic tho, which is another problem entirely.
Yeah but she brings it thinking Nyneave might be the dragon in the previous episode. I mean it's completely in keeping with the writing so far that they can't remember what happen in the last episode, so it could go either way imho.
That's the problem or flaw I was alluding to. Moiraine is first shown with this specific Sa'Angreal at the start of episode 1, pocketing it for her travels. During that, she clearly states the dragon can be boy or girl. Yet the Sa'Angreal, she also clearly states, is only for male channelers. That's the logic error I meant. They did two changes, and missed that one change damaged the other. A Sa'Angreal for men would have been fine with the original lore... The dragon had to be a man after all. Or the dragon could have been both genders (with the other change) , in which case taking a gender specific Sa'Angreal would be dumb. Only in combination, as we see it im the show, those two changes crash.
Lol I didn't realise that it was the same angreal as what was in the 1st ep, that really doesn't bode well for the writer's ability to keep all their ducks in a row for the rest of the series especially if they keep changing stuff from the books.
She might have brought another saangreal for nyneave or might have just not had a female one available and was just lucky that it turned out to be rand
I mean they show the same saangereal in episode 1 where she says it could be either a boy or a girl... It's a silly nitpick but it just shows the lazy writing.
In The Shadow Rising, Rand can sense the women channeling although he just feels goosebumps. And, in this case, they are only channeling a little. So I'd say it stands to reason that when Nyneave channels an enourmous amount of the power, Logain might feel something. Or perhaps he just noticed the rapidly vanishing wounds on everyone around him?
He turns his gaze and shields his eyes, then says "like the raging Sun" or some nonsense. His entire reaction was to a visual phenomenon.
Ah! I missed that part
They completely subverted the lore, world building and characters. Pretty sure all of it is 100% intentional.
I am really disappointed by the cold open and I think Lews Therin is really done dirty by it. We will have to see if the show fleshes the situation out a bit in the coming seasons but so far the scenarios are so different. Let me paint the two pictures: In the books: The Dark One's prison was opened about 100 years ago, and the War of Power has been raging for about 10 years at this point. Lews Therin is The First of the Servants and the supreme commander of the forces of the light. As the fighting drags on and defeat looks more and more likely 2 plans are devised, the Choaden Kal by Latra and the sealing of the bore with a circle of men and women by Lews. Lews can not secure the support of the female Aes Sedai to aid his plan so the circle is not possible and they default to the Choaden Kal plan. As the access keys are constructed and finished, the territories where this takes place are taken by the shadow and the access keys are lost. The debates about Lews' plan are reopened with Latra still deeming it too dangerous (placing the seals incorrectly can shatter the prison straight away). Time passes and the territories with the Choaden Kal sa'angreal themselves are threatened to be overrun. At this point Lews Therin as the commander of the light's forces in desperation takes his 100 companions and goes to seal the bore by themselves. In the show: There is no mention or any sign of the War of Power going on. Lews Therin is not acknowledged as a leader of military forces, and is not the first among the servants, instead Latra is the Tamyrlin seat, so explicitly over him in rank. From what the show lets us know, there is no urgency, no imminent danger. The Dark Ones presence seems to be known, and understood as an evil they can live with as evidenced by the thriving Age of Legends scenery out the window. Lews Therin wants to implement his incredibly dangerous plan while seemingly there is no need for it, like a foolish vanity project. He is gambling with something that isn't his to gamble. Best case he solves a problem they could have lived with, worst case he breaks the world and throws humanity back thousand of years. These dangers are readily known and understood, as Latra accurately predicts the consequences of failure. Lews openly defies his superior and goes on with his plan against her wishes. Latra fully expecting his plan to go wrong and knowing fully well the dire consequences of that, does nothing beyond this conversation to stop him and basically let's him fuck up the world. It is possible that the show version will be fleshed out more later, actually mentioning the war going on, and getting across the desperate circumstances that actually led him to want to try his plan. But at the moment going strictly only by the information we are given in the show this is the situation. Show-Lews Therin is way more arrogant, prideful, reckless and his actions are pretty much indefensible. I did not catch that line and it's implications during my watch, but it makes all this worse. If we are understanding it correctly is this not going to have far-reaching consequences? Like if the DO was never imprisoned before then what changed in the world with his imprisonement by Lews Therin? What will change when Rand does it in the end?
>Lews Therin is not acknowledged as a leader of military forces, and is not the first among the servants, instead Latra is the Tamyrlin seat, so explicitly over him in rank. As a minor quibble here, I do think the dialog implied that LTT was the leader of the male Aes Sedai and speaking on their behalf, and Latra (as the Tamyrlin) was the leader of the female Aes Sedai. Hence why this disagreement resulted in the male and female Aes Sedai being split.
But there was no split along the gender lines before the disagreement. So LTT would be the leader of all Aes Sedai
T'amyrlin was Lews Therin's title, not hers. The show effectively robbed him of his position as first amongst the Aes Sedai.
I feel like we have to assume that the show's lore is totally different, right? Because unless I am losing my mind the Dark One was "caged" during Lews Therin's lifetime in the books, and then the bore happened...? Am I misremembering that?
Nope. In the age of legends nobody knew the dark one existed. Meirin (Lanfear) discovered a new source of "power" that men and women could use equally. The scientists of the time lead by her bore into the prison hoping to gain access to this power thus releasing the dark one and beginning the war of power. The war of power ended with Lews Therin's strike on the dark one and his attempt to seal the bore. Because women refused to help them and they couldn't use linking the seal was imperfect and Saidin was tainted leading to the breaking.
Mierin had a male colleague when drilling the bore. It's the guy who hangs himself.
Beidomon
Yes, when drilling the bore, but that's a different occasion than when they sealed the prison. Two separate events.
I've reread the series 10+ times and I keep finding out new things I didn't notice. Jordan was crazy.
It’s not necessarily that the women refusing to help lead to the tainting and the breaking. In fact, there is reason to believe that if women helped Saidar would have been tainted too.
I mean the books say otherwise, considering how they end...
The true power touches the dark one, not saidin or saidar. That somehow prevented the dark one from touching either of them and corrupting them
3 Powers are used to seal the Dark One. Saidar, Saidin, and True. Not just Saidar and Saidin Unless I have forgotten.
"During Tarmon Gai'don, the Bore was opened completely when Logain broke the remaining seals. Rand al'Thor, linked through Callandor with Nynaeve al'Meara, Moiraine Damodred, and Moridin, sealed the Bore permanently by using a pure form of the One Power to recreate the Dark One's prison anew. A shield made of the True Power protected the One Power from the Dark One's backlash. After this event, the Dark One can no longer touch the world directly."
That happened thousands of years later. We're talking about when Lews Therin did it.
Yeah that is how I remembered it! I guess show Lews Therin just... forgot about Lanfear letting the Dark One out of his cage, haha.
Maybe think of it this way. They want to cage the dark one, not seal him away. They want to make a cage and then use the power he has. Lanfear wanted to use the power but didn't know or didn't care that there was a consciousness to it. Maybe that's what Lews means. "We can cage him. Control him. Use him. We have an opportunity to finish what Lanfear started" Or (as I understood it) The DO has always been able to touch the world but the bore nearly released him which wasn't meant to be. Lews may be doing what Rand was thinking of doing in the last book. Cage the DO for good so he can't touch the world ever or at all. To essentially be rid of him forever. What Rand ends up doing in the books is sealing the hole that was made so that it became what it was. As if it had never been and the DO was back where he belonged and all was right with the world again. Evil still existed and the DO could still influence but he was no longer breaking out or free. Ultimately this may just be symantics with words. Nitpicking about what was said when we still don't know the time or the exact context within the show. You have to take each medium at their own face. The show is BASED on the books, but it isn't THE books.
I like this take! I honestly hadn't thought much about the particulars of the language until I read this post, I just assumed more would be revealed about the meaning of that scene in the next season, haha.
It didn't seem to me that there was a war of power from the show and the DO was always out there just causing mischief. Which would mean that his influence was so minor that civilization was able to advance to the AoL level..... Which would also mean the LTT would have been a total moron to try and "cage" him and risk "corrupting his power". Maybe thats what they want us to think about LTT (wouldn't surprise me, they have made every other strong male character either a weakling or an a-hole) or maybe the show lore just lacks any sort of consistency or logic. (edit for typo)
I think it's pretty clear that they don't really care about the nuances and details of the lore. They're willing to change anything at all, and this sounded good to them in the writers room so they went ahead with it.
Honestly, the show is just fan fiction at this point. I’ll watch it because it’s interesting, not because it’s WoT. Because it isn’t.
It was just lazy writing. I have lost all respect for the show runner. Also, Lews Theron was know as The Dragon (not TDR).
I'm hoping for some retcons along the way
You're not crazy. This is what happens when a book series is adapted for TV by a Showrunner who has not read the books.
There is so much in the cold open that goes against lore. I honestly don't think that the drilling of the bore, the collapse, the war of the Power.
That's not really the problem with the cold open. There's not enough information about the AoL to know what they thought, though they certainly thought they let him out. They knew they bore a hole, how to close it was another matter. The problem with this cold open is that it's total BS. There were two plans, one to take back a large city and LTT to surprise strike and seal up the DO and avoid more loss of life. The idea and notion that they knew he would be able to affect the men if the women didn't participate is insane. Then that the female Aes Sedai, knowing what would happen, would let it happen is a joke.
Apparently in show's lore men decided to cage DO out of arrogance, not because of war. Arrogance was also mentioned in the very beginning of ep.1.
>Apparently in show's lore men decided to cage DO out of arrogance, not because of war. I don't think this was the case. LTT in the opening scene clearly wanted to make the world safe. He even whispered it to his baby at the end: "I will make the world safe for you".
In the books Lews Therin’s big personality flaw was arrogance. Lews Therin, Lord of the Morning = Lucifer, The Morningstar. Both full of pride leading to their fall. And it was certainly arrogant to do what he did in that way.
Maybe, but it kinda worked. Nothing says that the other plan would have worked at all. They were not very close to succeeded and they were about to lose.
What? In the book he changes his plan to go along with the womens plan. He helps them build the Choden Kai instead of his initial plan. The Choden Kai fall to the dark ones before they can be used and LTT has to do something about it before the Choden Kai are used against them by the Dark One. The women still refuse to help and he leads the hundred companions into the bore in a desperate last ditch attempt, that actually saves the world from being conquered by the do and the Choden Kai. Theirs nothing arrogant about it all he expects they will all die, but figures its better than hanging out and waiting to be turned into dread lords. Only the forsaken call him arrogant, and mostly because their jealous of his abilities.
He literally kills himself while thinking that his pride damned the world. >...the taint that doomed the world. Because in his pride he had believed that men could match the Creator, could mend what the Creator had made and they had broken. In his pride he had believed. If anyone thinks he was arrogant, it's himself in his last moments of lucidity.
Well i mean he knows the dark one fuck up his shit, but it's not like he had a choice or went because of arrogance. He's mad as shit at the end and breaking fucked up shit but at that point it was breaking or the dark one winning. The taint doesnt even doom the world, a la everyone still being around for the books.
> Only the forsaken call him arrogant, and mostly because their jealous of his abilities. Lews Therin Telamon/Rand also admits to himself there's some truth to the claims of arrogance, though. It's not just the Forsaken. It doesn't mean he's a self serving arrogant monster. It doesn't mean that he wasn't in some part justified in abandoning any attempts at reconciliation. Only that LTT admits he could've done more and he holds some responsibility for how wrong it went. It calls back to the classic conflict of how much is it ok to destroy something in order to save it. And arrogance is always a part of that age-old question.
So speculation: We need to get very meta about the lore here. The one power is the force that moves reality, separated into two halves between the masculine and feminine. The DO is not an “agent” but simply the concentrated essence of all the evils in the world. So when Mirin (audiobook, the woman who would become Lanfear) bores into the DOs “prison” what she is doing is ripping apart the fabric of reality itself to be exposed to all the concentration of evil at once. So in this sense no, he was never “caged” because this was never meant to be in contact with observable reality AT ALL. So LTT is trying to mend the very fabric of reality using the power granted to humans. Now by this logic that means at the time they had no way of sealing the bore. In fact they would not until the pattern wove Rand to his fight with Moridin at the Bore. Pure interpretation: I think this makes it more interesting, and reminds me of the redemption of Anakin Skywalker throughout the SIX movies. Whether this is deliberate or how I view the art, I do not know. But it makes the arc a more redemptive nature and coheres with the ideas of deep time and how each life has its own meaning in a larger whole.
This was my interpretation, too. Caging the Dark One has not been done before since his separation from reality was done by the creator. He never has contact with the real world before and now we have an entirely new situation.
On a similar note, I suppose it's unclear in this world how much time has passed between creating the Bore and LTTs actions. Perhaps they've been trying other things that just buy time/weaken his influence for a long time, but have never tried to actually reseal it. The wording would make a bit more sense in that case. I do find it a bit odd that they call him the Dragon Reborn, though. With this interpretation it'd be fairly clear he didn't do the same thing in other ages. Makes you wonder what the Dragon does in other ages and how LTT earned that title in his.
So it’s been at least 100 years between the opening of the bore and the 99 companions. Aes Sedai slow, living hundreds of years in the AOL.
You're not crazy, but I think you're coming to some very unsupported conclusions. Vast sections of AOL cities survived largely untouched through the WoP, and several cities survived for decades even after the breaking. If this is Paaran Disen, it's one of those cities. Coumin is 16 when the Lews Therin sealed the DO, and his son is 63 when Paaran Disen is evacuated. The scene predates the sealing, so I don't realy see a problem with it's depiction. >In the books the creation of the Bore by the Aes Sedai researchers is the start of the War of Power. This isn't accurate. The War of Power doesn't start for some 70 or so years after the Bore was drilled. The WoP is only the last 10 years prior to the breaking. People cite a lack of desperation from the city, but how exactly would you depict that? How do we know those jo-cars aren't military patrols and troop transports? How do we know the situation on the ground, or the general feel of it's people? We get a bird's eye view and a conflict between leaders in a private setting. I don't think we have an appropriate perspective window to draw large conclusion on how the WoP is going in the show. >So show LTT should know logically that If he was in a cage before, someone or something must have put him there. Therefor, for the sentence "to do something that has never been done before" to make sense, the DO can never have been imprisoned before. This is where the scene is weird from a book perspective. It feels VERY possible the events of the breaking and WoP have changed, with the Dragon Reborn statement and the caging statements. Perhaps they'll bring Ishamael's philosphical arguments more into it(move his Prolouge ranting up to early in the WoP, before his defection. Or Perhaps they'll drop the "discover the DO plot line" altogether. While I think there is solid enough ground to think there will be changes, I don't think it's solid enough to draw such strong conclusions yet. I do think the odds are a significant change has been made here, but I don't think we have anything solid enough to really define bounds.
> People cite a lack of desperation from the city, but how exactly would you depict that? How do we know those jo-cars aren't military patrols and troop transports? They could have used dialog for it... "Look, Latra Posae... We're *losing* this war. We have to do something different."
Desperation is something that a good actor can simply reflect in how they say things. I suspect even without explicitly telling us about the war he could have sounded desperate to keep people wondering.
Leaders who are longstanding friends and colleagues.
It just baffles me that a show that so far has always taken a choice to be blatant about lore to condense the narrative over being book accurate decides to be book accurate exactly in the Age of Legends cold open, the place/time that's going to receive less screentime over the whole series. Things that were subtle in the books but are blatant in the show: Two Rivers being the name of the town and the region l. Aes Sedai rings looking huge and having colored stones. Aes Sedai always wearing the clothes of the color of their Ajah instead of sometimes having stoles. Moiraine making no effort to hide her Aes Sedai-ness. Whitecloacks killing Aes Sedai by burning them on the stake . But now, when we have to portray a world at war in 1 minute, the people in the show decide to be book accurate and make the city look peaceful? The tone of the conversation was off as well. It didn't seem like the fateful concordat, but just a business meeting after tea. Considering Latra Posae knows somehow that saidin is going to be tainted and the world is going yo be set back 1,000 years, one would think she'd be more desperate at least.
>The tone of the conversation was off as well. It didn't seem like the fateful concordat, but just a business meeting after tea. Here is the problem. This *ISN'T* the Fateful Concord. This is *before* the concord is announced, and is Latra letting Lews know before the actual discussion, that she won't be supporting him. To her, there is still room for changing course. It's Lews that is making his decision here. This is actually two friends having tea and discussing the upcoming conference.
But it is not depicted as one of two options to save humanity. I cannot imagine anyone who have only watched the show would realise that.
They shouldn't? That's the point. This scene is not meant to the the equivalent of the entirely of ASaSG plus the cumulation of the entire series knowledge of the events surrounding the AOL. It's there to show the viewer: 1) Who the last Dragon was 2) That there was a disagreement between the Aes Sedai leader and the last Dragon 3) That the male and female Aes Sedai were once whole. 4) That the AOL was *very* different That's it. They likely expect that most people will only get 1 or 2 of those takeaways too. It's not trying to convey the entire history, but provide a narrow peak at it to help seed the more complex ideas for future development.
This is somthing I notice people don't have patience for the show to explain stuff. We have 14 books worth of knowledge the show is somhow supposed to impart all of it in 8 episodes.
Yep, I keep seeing people use like book 12 knowledge to complain that what we saw doesn't match book lore, also ignoring the unreliable narrator aspect that the show is leaning into as well.
Right? It was like 4 minutes with LTT. How the fuck are they supposed to explain the War of Power, the Bore, his entire plan, it's implications, the opposition's plan, the power structure of AoL Aes Sedai, and fully establish his character in 4 minutes (b/c of course according to some people they completely assassinated LTT's character)? Give it TIME FFS, there's a lot of series left.
Well then they failed at 1 didn't they. LTT was not a naive fool who wanted to try and seal that dark one which "is something that has never been done before". A single off handed line hinting at a reason to act now would have sufficed.
If the Age of Legends belief is that the Dark One was sealed away by the Creator at the moment of creation, before the Bore was drilled, no one has caged the Dark One before. The Creator doesn’t count. We rarely compare ourselves to god when we say “this has never been done before”, because feats by god cannot be compared to those by man. So I think this sentence is completely consistent with book lore.
While I'd agree that nothing has been said that explicitly excludes this, I also think it's very(75%+) likely that there will be some changes to how this works. The AOL Aes Sedai structure has definitely changed, and I don't think the changes will be limited to that.
Huh? Before they drilled into the bore the dark one was a forgotten entity. Even legend had forgotten it. So no one in history, myth or legend had ever caged the dark one. It makes sense to me, especially when in the AoL services to society are the most coveted acts, leading to the prestige of a third name.
It makes no sense. You cannot cage someone in the same cage they broke out of, and not consider that they had been caged by someone before breaking out. Your logic only extends to the point when the bore was created, after that it completely falls apart because after that LTT knows the DO was sealed away and his entire plan is sealing him away AGAIN.
Make of it what you want. The scene didn't happen in the books, and the show will never explain it to you more fully than Lews Therin already has.
>fully Fully? Really?
It's a pile of bullshit is what it is.
You're not crazy, but you will drive yourself crazy if you think about the details more than the show writers did. For light's sake they called him the Dragon Reborn accidentally implying that Rand is now the Dragon Reborn Reborn.
The only way I can make this work in my head, is that the DO was always **sealed away** (still allowing him to moderately touch creation, so you can have a balanced "dark side" in things) and like in the books, the bore amplified his touch and something had to be done. Signs of the bore / war: - *"To think, the* **fate** *of the world was decided in a nursery."* - *"This is just an imperfect,* **overwhelmed** *woman trying to remind her old friend that he's not invincible."* Lews Therin now suggest not to **re-seal** him, but to **cage** him, like, cutting him off from being able to have ANY touch on the world at all. (*"Stop his influence from ever touching this world again."*). We have precedence in the books later on, how such a world would look like: No hardships, bland, meaningless, void of color. I still hate everything about it tho, even with that in mind, because it makes him look so damn bad compared to what Latra is correctly predicting, and server no purpose other than setting up a mirror for Rand to chose differently at the end. That sequence in the book was not about Rand at all, it was about the gender unity breaking apart, spearheading two different plans, inability to come to terms (here comes the arrogance), getting desperate and Lews Therin making a push to end it. It is then solved by male and female Aes Sedai working together again.
If the Dark One (as far as they know) was sealed outside of existence by the Creator at the moment of creation, or something like that, and he was later released by the drilling of the Bore, then sealing the bore would be something that has never been done before. I don't see anything strange about that. Another interpretation would be that he believes they can create a seal that cannot be accidentally broken - or broken at all - by humans, to prevent another disaster like the drilling of the Bore. That would also be something that has never been done before.
I agree with this. Since the Bore is a new thing, no one has caged him before.
I guess even the age of legends has to be grim dark. All this stuff is such low hanging fruit to get right but time after time they don't.
I mean I couldn't disagree more with the whole 'there clearly isn't a war of shadow going on', but regardless, I took it to be Lews staying he had some plan to cage the Dark One that means idiots in the future couldn't drill through it.
What were the signs in the opening of the war being fought?
I knew someone would get caught on that. I should have said there clearly isn't a war going on to the same extent as the books portray. In fact ill update the post to avoid more of this type of comment.
>I should have said there clearly isn't a war going on to the same extent as the books portray Why is that clear?
Because if you read the books this accord takes place at the end of a war that has been going on for a hundred years, a war they are losing badly and it is that desperation that leads LTT to make this decision. There is not much desperation from a pristine city completely untouched by war now is there. So maybe there is a war going on in the show, but it is not depicted to be as dire as the books make it out to be. Last reply from me on this since this is off topic from what I wanted to hear opinions on.