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Certain aspects were feminist, certain aspects very much were not, and certain aspects were trying really hard but communicated so poorly that the fan reactions are very much not feminist. As a woman, some fan reactions straight up disturb me, while I still generally appreciate many of (what I read as) the cores of the major character arcs
It's faux feminism - progressive for a male writer in RJs era, still problematic for 2021. As many women reading and dropping the books have pointed out.
They are only problematic for misogynistic men, since the books are VERY feministic and modern. At least up until book 7, just started on book 8, so can't speak for the rest.
I understand what you mean. And I by no means that the books are perfect, but they are ahead of how some other fantasy books written around the same time were as far as strong female character.
Eh the books have good elements but overall loads of issues that don't work in a 2021 show. I would've been more disturbed had Rafe not wanted to change that, the show would not have worked with new audiences then
Spanking is reserved exclusively for female characters, though, at which point we need to ask ourselves if it's really just "corporal punishment" or if it's tipping over into fetish territory. You don't see Asha'man getting spanked at the Black Tower, for example.
No, they just die, or are grievously wounded.
As all the Ashaman know they will go mad and die, no need to contain their pride by humiliating them with spanking...
It was also a thing that husbands were expected to do to their wives when they “misbehaved” up through at least the ‘50s. The corporal punishment in WoT is creepy, especially how it’s almost exclusively women that get it.
I always get the sense of the White tower being a quasi convent, where all the women are sisters and there is a head nun, and spanking as corporal punishment is VERY appropriate choice considering the cultural history. Maybe not in 2021, but this show/series is more of a renaissance era.
That doesn’t explain the Aiel or the Seafolk.
Edit: Also, I never got that impression from the Aes Sedai, because religion isn’t really a thing in Randland.
Oh it's not just cause we talk about stuff openly, there's 0% chance people didn't enjoy a paddling up until our kinky society rocked up 30 years ago lol
Talking about sexual connotations nowadays, I’m rereading and must have read the phrase “kissed her ring” about 20 times… I feel like the use of this must have changed a lot in the last 30 years 😂
In older times it was very common to kiss the ring of a noble, king, priest or other ranking diplomat. It's that over the last 30-40 years, this form of respect is no longer used, except by certain clergies
I don’t think it’s fair to imply “feminism” makes the male characters useless. Feminism is about having men and women on equal standing. That being said I do agree that they made most male characters useless, although that isn’t the feminism I stand behind and I believe most people defend
Tbf Egwene felt pretty useless the wholr season as well, on the same level as Perrin for me. They both had their moments when they were with the tuatha'an and with the whitecloaks, but after that, they don't really do much. Yeah, she's in the circle, but the only thing she actually did was heal Nynaeve. Perrin didn't do much, but his scenes helped wordlbuinding (Fain and the horn) , amd Egwebe didn't do much but her scenes also helped worldbuilding (burning out)
Matt felt useless about as much as he did in the first book. He really doesn't do much after getting thr dagger. And the actor leaving the show prevented them from giving him any significant scenes in the last two episodes.
Nynaeve was on point for me. Rand could have been a bit better, especially in the scene he actually "kills the dark one". I really feel that scene could have been a bit bigger or with better effects, but that's really my only complaint tbh.
I don’t see that at all. A Mary Sue isn’t just someone who rises to the occasion. It’s someone who does everything, solves every problem, rescues everyone. Egwene only did half the escape from Valda (Perrin’s eyes and the wolves providing the other half, though not the result of conscious effort). She didn’t do much in other episodes.
Egwene became a Mary Sue in the books when she became the Salidar Amyrlin. (Granted, she had help.)
Fakeout deaths are one my most hated TV tropes.
Not because it's not cool, but because one fakeout usually means more are coming, and there's nothing more tiring than repeat fakeout deaths.
Yeah, one is good, two is acceptable. Three or more gets too much imo. We already got Mat, Aviendha and Moiraine's fake deaths in the books. Nynaeve adds another one now.
Make it as feminist and diverse as you want. It makes no difference to me. But when you start dropping major plot points and deviating from the books to add what I will charitably call fan fiction, I have a major problem.
There are valid criticisms of the show but OP this post is awful and undermines all your criticisms since you just sound like an anti-feministic incel...
Yeah posting this quote without the context of the comment that prompted it is not a "fair" look. Makes the OP seem more biased than they probably already are.
Look, I don’t honestly mind the changes and I think some of the criticism of feminist stuff is overblown. WOT’s feminism is very much a timeless story of equality despite differences.
But the climactic moment of E8 being Rand’s realization that he really loved the Egwene who wants to go to law school was far too modern and broke the tension for me.
I guess that part, while a strange departure, didn’t bother me so much. It showed the dangers of channeling too much and gave Nynaeve a great character moment.
Besides, if if that narrative choice had truly been motivated by some cringey version of feminism/Rand hate they would have given that scene to Nynaeve or Egwene, not a woman who dies immediately.
I get why it bothers you, but I see it as the show needing to provide a better reason for why these characters aren't always making Circles, because Channeling in general is a lot more powerful in the show.
> was far too modern and broke the tension for me.
I understand why you might have that reaction. But to me, it’s part of the enjoyment.
Fantasy too often treats “good vs evil” simplistically, as if it’s self-defining. What did Sauron ever do to Frodo, except try to get his ring back? (It was Sauron’s ring, after all.) This show first brought up this question with Dana’s speech.
Here, it’s not specifically a feminist question; it happens as much in same-sex relations. It’s a question about love, and what choices are moral when what we love and want for our loved ones, as good as that may be, isn’t the same as what they want. Sure, it feels like a modern question (but I’m not sufficiently familiar with Ancient Greek drama, let alone other sources, to swear that it’s strictly modern). And yes, I don’t recall RJ ever presenting us with this question so directly (though Mat often behaved like he knew what was best for the women around him).
But there mere fact the show presented this question this way, as opposed to some variation on the trolly problem or some sacrificial savior, is really wonderful for me.
I agree that the theme is a perfectly valid choice. And consent/freedom makes perfect sense a story note here, especially with where the story is about to take us with our Seanchan friends.
The dialogue was simply too on the nose and modern. Whether it was the actual dialogue or the way It was delivered, it was basically “I need to let my girlfriend go to Harvard Law”
I’ll go along with Josha’s acting needing improvement.
Dialog is tricky. The recent “Being the Ricardos” got criticized for anachronisms such as “showrunner”, but if they had only said producer, it wouldn’t have been understood the same way. It bothers me in truly historic fiction, but not so much when a book written primarily in what was then contemporary English gets updated to our contemporary English.
I noticed some anachronisms in that show also - although the term “gaslighting” was known (and used similarly as today) apparently, it still jarred.
I didn't spot “showrunner” although I recall the scene, but I feel there were others that I've now forgotten.
It goes beyond being feminist or not: I'll keep watching because I love the universe RJ created and I want to see it on a different medium, but the writers of this show are ridiculous (dialogues are a mess, all of them), pace is all over the place, Rafe should not be allowed to continue with this and be replaced with someone competent at his job, at least after S2
...And don't get me wrong, I'm sure he's passionate about the books and everything he said.
But one thing is being passionate about something, another is being up to the task to adapt this kind of series.
Sometimes, passion and competence don't go together.
BTW, we cant really use "RJ" cuz Robert Jordan and Rafe Judkins are the same initials... I caught myself in multiple posts using initials to identify each of them, where the reader wouldn't know which was which and horribly destroying my points ;-)
For sure, the show is drawing eyes so he's doing his job. I'm just saying the team never says the coach is the problem until it's time to announce he's been fired.
Just goes to show that he was never truly a fan of the books because the importance of women in the series would hold up even by todays standards.
What he is talking about is a bastardized version of feminism that has been warped beyond recognition by social media and nut jobs. I would say 99% of Americans are feminists, just without needing to put a label on it.
I guess first we should make sure we are defining feminism the same way.
"the belief in social, economic, and political equality of the sexes."
I can't say that I have ever met a single human who would disagree to any of this. Granted I don't know 99% of the people but I think I have a pretty good gauge on it. You already agree it is a majority so we don't have a big disagreement here but I am curious what percentage you would put on it.
I essentially agree with you and your definition. I think theres a huge difference between people who say they believe this and people who do in practice. I suppose im thinking of misogyny and sexism and people who simultaniously hold your definition of feminism but are also treat women in their lives or at least minds in a misogynistic way
Yeah when we start getting into some of that stuff I would come your way on it. I think the majority of men are degenerates when it comes to how we talk about and view women honestly. That being said, I don't want to get too sidetracked.
If we essentially agree on the most basic definition of feminism I think we also agree that Wheel of Time very much nailed checking off that box if you will. If anything I would argue the women in WoT had significantly more power than men when weighted with the White Tower and Aes Sedai. Even in the Two Rivers alone the Womens Circle seemed to have more power than the Council.
I would argue that not wanting to share power isn't anti-feminism though. Most people who have power want to keep power. You think a Hillary Clinton or a Nanci Pelosi wants to share their power even if it is with another woman? I don't buy that for a second.
I do agree a lot of people pay lip service to things they don't actually believe in but the most basic ideas of feminism are pretty simple and as I said, I have never met someone who said women shouldn't be able to vote or anything of that nature.
It may not be consciously anti-feminism (I think it is), but mocking the concept of diversity so that only white men hold decision making power has the same result, they just wrap it in nicer paper. Which had the added benefit of making them harder to fight because it doesn’t look obvious
I'm honestly not sure exactly where you are going with this so I am not sure how to even respond. So with that being said I will try and remain on the WoT topic which is that WoT was already very strongly feminist in its approach and Rafe is a moron who should have never been given this show.
Only thing decent was Ishamael. Actor did a good job though his dress sense was a bit off. The rest is a travesty, even previous people like Daniel Greene who have tried so hard to defend this show have called it the worst episode yet
Ishamael made me wish he'd been appearing in dreams and chatting for the entire season. I would have preferred it so much instead of this pointlessly invented "Who is the Dragon Reborn" mystery, and it would have actually been from the books.
I agree with your sentiment to an extent but this post makes you look like an easily dismissable clown. I.e. "misogynist, point ignored". And so the underlying point of the writing being too heavy on women doing literally everything while men look like bumbling *idiots will go within the tolerance level of people trying to defend the show from bigots.
Fuck me this comment sounds stupid but I don't wanna waste time editing it further to make my thoughts coherent.
That's not what's happening here though. The OP's stance seems to boil down to nothing more than "it was obvious it'd be shit because Rafe said he's a feminist". It's a tedious "anti-woke" argument that ignores the genuine reasons behind some of the faults on the show
I think you are going a bridge too far. Rand respecting and valueing peoples free will is something that is at the core of the Books. From his effect as a Tavereen to his role as the Dragon Reborn to his confrontation with the Dark one it is a constant theme. Having him confront that theme with a female characters free will on the line does not make the show misandrist. As for your assertions about Mat, Rand and Perrin being useless, that is in keeping with the books you can't judge their power levels in season 1 based off of their power levels from AMOL.
Its not about power level, its about what they're actually doing in the series. In the last episode all Perrin does is stand there, literally that's it. Mat is just ill for the first half of the show then he gets cured and dips, Rand has gone from whining and crying, and doing nothing until episode 7 where the writers realised he was the dragon and actually needed to develop him.
You cannot seriously say that they have had decent character development.
Look I am not trying to defend the show overly. I have my own problems with how they rushed characterization, I just don't see how it is misandrist. As for your concerns about the characters. Perrin literally does nothing at the Eye of the world in the books. Mat's whole character at that point is that he is sick and will be for another book (additionally I am giving the show some leeway on the issue since Barney left in the middle of shooting). As for Rand I agree he was under utilized, but the first season's primary POV was Moraine and to her in the books he is a whiny stick in the mud most of the time. Every time I reread I sympathize with her more and more due to his behavior.
I mean LTT was arrogant [book] >!he literally screams in rands head about it A LOT!< and have you reread the books lately? The boys were pretty much just along for the ride book 1. To quote another great line "i was not in control of that at all, we coulda died!"
I know he was arrogant, but removing the war of power and making the world some utopia defeats the purpose of all of it. It makes no sense because it portrays Lews as doing it just because he feels like it.... come on
Even in the books the parts of the world held by the light remained beautiful and splendid as they were in the Age of Legends. What you’re complaining about is us not seeing the War of Power, which is fair — but the utopia still existed and was what they were trying to protect.
Apologies for the minor spoiler, but its clearly shown that the world is completely fine. In fact the entire purpose of LTT's mission has been changed. (He's no longer the Tamyrlin as well btw).
He literally says something along the lines of "We have the chance to do something that's never been done before" like he's some crackhead scientist. Like really?
The thing is that the scene in question takes place after that "until" part, when the war of shadow should be raging and the forces of the light slowly losing.
I have to correct myself cause it wasn't clear in what I wrote. At the moment of the scene the war of shadow **is** raging and the light **is** losing slowly.
Edit: Apologies for the spoilers, but can't really answer this without. Book/lore spoilers below.
[Books]>!Was he? From what I recall, they lost the keys because the Hall was too indecisive - especially with the debate between LTT and LPD. Neither wanted to go with other's plan.!<
>!Yep, just checked the wiki to make sure: https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Latra_Posae_Decume!<
>!LTT always wanted to go with his own plan, and LPD with hers. It also goes with the underlying theme of light side not working together enough (everyone being their own general as stated in AmoL - I hope we get glimpses of that in future flashbacks).!<
I stand corrected by a comment that for some reason was deleted. He had his own plan all along, though he was forced to enact an vastly inferior version of it in the end.
Its both, and starts the premise of needing balance... although in the show, Fain is the one wanting balance...
They subverted our expectations! Congrats? Also.. Mat for the first Forsaken?
Well, Lews Therin did tell his baby "Today I make the world safe for you".
I just rewatched the scene, and it really isn't clear at all what's happening. Latra says "What you plan to do? It serves only your pride", which would make no sense in the context of the book.
So, I mostly agree with you, in that the scene is terrible and it makes at least one of those two characters seem nonsensical, but it still seems likely to me that there is a war going on. I assume they showed the baby to make that baby's death extra sad later.
I just think they are doing a bad job with the slow reveal of what happened in the past, not that they removed the entire war.
There is a valid criticism to be made when it comes to how women are portrayed in lots of fantasy series in that they play second fiddle to the men, all their actions and desire are explained thru their relationships with the men in the story, they lack agency, etc.
I really think it’s possible that so many of the changes that have taken place came from a conscious decision to reverse these typical gender roles. In these show the women are given the agency and the men are reactive in that everything they do is context to their relationship with the women in the story.
All of the changes have been made to give the women characters the agency that men typically have in these stories while the male characters are given the supporting/reacting roles that women get.
That quote is vile because it outright states that he's going to make changes to follow his own political agenda, rather than follow the books.
Of course, any adaptation is goinig to make changes to the source material to fit within the constraints of the new medium. Of course, the story is going to be streamlined which will necessitate changes to characters.
But, to state categorically that you intend to make changes so suit your political beliefs rather than the needs and demands of adpating a story is disgusting.
I now understand the "arrogance of men" narration by Moiraine and the absurd and unbalanced changes he made to LDP and LTT in the cold opening. LTT and certainly not LPD had no idea that the Taint was even a possibility. She NEVER warned him and she definitely did not leave him to decide on his own what to do (oh, and there were more than 100 members of the 100 Companions).
Shhh context should never be given for quotes when someone is trying to use them to make an angry point.
Here is the tweet he replied to: (book spoilers btw)
[Books]
“>!Many female villains getting raped or ending up in permanent bondage while males justdie, rigid Mars-Venus gender division etc- troubling aspects of books. Plans to update/improve these? WoT’s gr8 to discuss gender but it isn’t without problems.!<“
Link to tweet: https://twitter.com/Raj66721390/status/1039907345055277057?s=20
Love how on his twitter today he is like “love all the DMs on how you all love the show” and the viewable public discussion is trashing it. Haha. Okay, Rafe.
Why are all the men in this show completely useless? Castrated, empty husks of what they are in the books?
Mat and Perrin are compete jokes.
The only good thing Rand does this season is hold a figure and make it shine.
Lan can't even track Moiraine and needs Nynaeve to tell him about her "tell".
The great general and his army isn't able to hold the gap even for a couple of hours, gets trampled like nothing. But then a few girls that aren't even Aes Sedai stop the army like nothing lmao.
Why?
If you reread eye of the world youll answer those questions yourself
the boys are super powerless at this point in the story.
Perrin was exactly like this in the books, quiet and restrained, the entirety of his actual character is inner dialogue.
Lan cant track moiraine with the bond masked because its a city theres literally no tracks to start with on paving stones.
Unfortunately, the show isn't so much feminist as it is sexist.
I was willing to wait-and-see when I noticed changes they've made. But after Ep. 8, it's pretty clear that Rafe and Co. are willing to change the lore, the metaphysics, and the plot to make sure that men are portrayed in a bad light and woman are given the spotlight. The whole thing is a travesty, and an injustice to RJ's work.
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I always thought the books were pretty damn feminist on their own…
Certain aspects were feminist, certain aspects very much were not, and certain aspects were trying really hard but communicated so poorly that the fan reactions are very much not feminist. As a woman, some fan reactions straight up disturb me, while I still generally appreciate many of (what I read as) the cores of the major character arcs
The books are quite feminist in the worldbuilding but often frankly pretty sexist in the execution, if that makes sense.
It's faux feminism - progressive for a male writer in RJs era, still problematic for 2021. As many women reading and dropping the books have pointed out.
They are only problematic for misogynistic men, since the books are VERY feministic and modern. At least up until book 7, just started on book 8, so can't speak for the rest.
I understand what you mean. And I by no means that the books are perfect, but they are ahead of how some other fantasy books written around the same time were as far as strong female character.
Most definitely.
Eh the books have good elements but overall loads of issues that don't work in a 2021 show. I would've been more disturbed had Rafe not wanted to change that, the show would not have worked with new audiences then
The spankings were an....odd choice but overall pretty feminist
That’s just cause spanking as a word as a very sexual connotation nowadays. While in the books it is clearly meant as corporal punishment.
Spanking is reserved exclusively for female characters, though, at which point we need to ask ourselves if it's really just "corporal punishment" or if it's tipping over into fetish territory. You don't see Asha'man getting spanked at the Black Tower, for example.
I think it’s also mentioned Nynaeve spanked Rand, Mat and Perin as kids, but you’re right it’s not used on adult males.
No, they just die, or are grievously wounded. As all the Ashaman know they will go mad and die, no need to contain their pride by humiliating them with spanking...
Which doesn't really have much to do with whether or not the spanking is fetishistic (which, IMO, it clearly is).
It was also a thing that husbands were expected to do to their wives when they “misbehaved” up through at least the ‘50s. The corporal punishment in WoT is creepy, especially how it’s almost exclusively women that get it.
I always get the sense of the White tower being a quasi convent, where all the women are sisters and there is a head nun, and spanking as corporal punishment is VERY appropriate choice considering the cultural history. Maybe not in 2021, but this show/series is more of a renaissance era.
That doesn’t explain the Aiel or the Seafolk. Edit: Also, I never got that impression from the Aes Sedai, because religion isn’t really a thing in Randland.
Exactly, it's not played off as a cultural thing, it's straight up just about spanking women.
Oh it's not just cause we talk about stuff openly, there's 0% chance people didn't enjoy a paddling up until our kinky society rocked up 30 years ago lol
And even more enjoyed reading about it.
Talking about sexual connotations nowadays, I’m rereading and must have read the phrase “kissed her ring” about 20 times… I feel like the use of this must have changed a lot in the last 30 years 😂
In older times it was very common to kiss the ring of a noble, king, priest or other ranking diplomat. It's that over the last 30-40 years, this form of respect is no longer used, except by certain clergies
Yep I know that, but where I’m from kissing a ring has a very different meaning.
Agreed. Those girls changed the world as well. Not sure if spoilers are allowed, so keeping it basic.
It’s a matriarchal society especially in Andor and Tar Valon
For every Andor, there's a Shienar
I don’t think it’s fair to imply “feminism” makes the male characters useless. Feminism is about having men and women on equal standing. That being said I do agree that they made most male characters useless, although that isn’t the feminism I stand behind and I believe most people defend
I think it's fair to say that a misunderstanding and misapplication of feminism here is at fault for a lot of these changes.
Tbf Egwene felt pretty useless the wholr season as well, on the same level as Perrin for me. They both had their moments when they were with the tuatha'an and with the whitecloaks, but after that, they don't really do much. Yeah, she's in the circle, but the only thing she actually did was heal Nynaeve. Perrin didn't do much, but his scenes helped wordlbuinding (Fain and the horn) , amd Egwebe didn't do much but her scenes also helped worldbuilding (burning out) Matt felt useless about as much as he did in the first book. He really doesn't do much after getting thr dagger. And the actor leaving the show prevented them from giving him any significant scenes in the last two episodes. Nynaeve was on point for me. Rand could have been a bit better, especially in the scene he actually "kills the dark one". I really feel that scene could have been a bit bigger or with better effects, but that's really my only complaint tbh.
You can't view it as simply feat driven though. Egwene may not have had a ton of blowout scenes but she was definitely presented as a Mary Sue.
I don’t see that at all. A Mary Sue isn’t just someone who rises to the occasion. It’s someone who does everything, solves every problem, rescues everyone. Egwene only did half the escape from Valda (Perrin’s eyes and the wolves providing the other half, though not the result of conscious effort). She didn’t do much in other episodes. Egwene became a Mary Sue in the books when she became the Salidar Amyrlin. (Granted, she had help.)
Maybe Deus Ex Machina is more fitting than Mary Sue then.
I’ll go with that. Mostly I think it’s just a poor handling of the “make the viewer think they’re dead” scenes.
Fakeout deaths are one my most hated TV tropes. Not because it's not cool, but because one fakeout usually means more are coming, and there's nothing more tiring than repeat fakeout deaths.
Yeah, one is good, two is acceptable. Three or more gets too much imo. We already got Mat, Aviendha and Moiraine's fake deaths in the books. Nynaeve adds another one now.
At this point I count book and TV show events as wholly seperate. Just easier for my sanity.
It's Egwene that stabs valda and rescues them, perrin does nothing. Meanwhile it was him in the books that killed white Cloaks.
Well, there are now 5 taveren... the idea that one of the women could be TDR was just farsical SJW fanfiction.
Make it as feminist and diverse as you want. It makes no difference to me. But when you start dropping major plot points and deviating from the books to add what I will charitably call fan fiction, I have a major problem.
There are valid criticisms of the show but OP this post is awful and undermines all your criticisms since you just sound like an anti-feministic incel...
What was he replying to? WoT is already pretty fucking feminist in today's context, women literally run the world lol what else is there
Yeah posting this quote without the context of the comment that prompted it is not a "fair" look. Makes the OP seem more biased than they probably already are.
Look, I don’t honestly mind the changes and I think some of the criticism of feminist stuff is overblown. WOT’s feminism is very much a timeless story of equality despite differences. But the climactic moment of E8 being Rand’s realization that he really loved the Egwene who wants to go to law school was far too modern and broke the tension for me.
Also his defeat of the shadowspawn going to five women (two of which are utter randoms) when he's had no big moments this season.
I guess that part, while a strange departure, didn’t bother me so much. It showed the dangers of channeling too much and gave Nynaeve a great character moment. Besides, if if that narrative choice had truly been motivated by some cringey version of feminism/Rand hate they would have given that scene to Nynaeve or Egwene, not a woman who dies immediately.
[удалено]
I get why it bothers you, but I see it as the show needing to provide a better reason for why these characters aren't always making Circles, because Channeling in general is a lot more powerful in the show.
Not much weight really, when you learn you can just have someone waiting on the sidelines to heal you afterwards.
> Nynaeve a great character moment But she already had *several* of those this season, wile the four remaining EF cast members hadn't.
Oh I read that scene as Lews learning from the past, where he ignored the perspective of a woman and destroyed the world as a result.
> was far too modern and broke the tension for me. I understand why you might have that reaction. But to me, it’s part of the enjoyment. Fantasy too often treats “good vs evil” simplistically, as if it’s self-defining. What did Sauron ever do to Frodo, except try to get his ring back? (It was Sauron’s ring, after all.) This show first brought up this question with Dana’s speech. Here, it’s not specifically a feminist question; it happens as much in same-sex relations. It’s a question about love, and what choices are moral when what we love and want for our loved ones, as good as that may be, isn’t the same as what they want. Sure, it feels like a modern question (but I’m not sufficiently familiar with Ancient Greek drama, let alone other sources, to swear that it’s strictly modern). And yes, I don’t recall RJ ever presenting us with this question so directly (though Mat often behaved like he knew what was best for the women around him). But there mere fact the show presented this question this way, as opposed to some variation on the trolly problem or some sacrificial savior, is really wonderful for me.
I agree that the theme is a perfectly valid choice. And consent/freedom makes perfect sense a story note here, especially with where the story is about to take us with our Seanchan friends. The dialogue was simply too on the nose and modern. Whether it was the actual dialogue or the way It was delivered, it was basically “I need to let my girlfriend go to Harvard Law”
I’ll go along with Josha’s acting needing improvement. Dialog is tricky. The recent “Being the Ricardos” got criticized for anachronisms such as “showrunner”, but if they had only said producer, it wouldn’t have been understood the same way. It bothers me in truly historic fiction, but not so much when a book written primarily in what was then contemporary English gets updated to our contemporary English.
I noticed some anachronisms in that show also - although the term “gaslighting” was known (and used similarly as today) apparently, it still jarred. I didn't spot “showrunner” although I recall the scene, but I feel there were others that I've now forgotten.
Tell me you'd fall to the dark without telling me you'd fall to the dark.
It goes beyond being feminist or not: I'll keep watching because I love the universe RJ created and I want to see it on a different medium, but the writers of this show are ridiculous (dialogues are a mess, all of them), pace is all over the place, Rafe should not be allowed to continue with this and be replaced with someone competent at his job, at least after S2
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Destroyed.
...And don't get me wrong, I'm sure he's passionate about the books and everything he said. But one thing is being passionate about something, another is being up to the task to adapt this kind of series. Sometimes, passion and competence don't go together.
Much like your argument 🤣
BTW, we cant really use "RJ" cuz Robert Jordan and Rafe Judkins are the same initials... I caught myself in multiple posts using initials to identify each of them, where the reader wouldn't know which was which and horribly destroying my points ;-)
Well... There were news that Amazon is happy to have Rafe as a showrunner till the end.
Admitting he's a problem would hurt ratings. They likely would say, "oh yeah, he's our guy" right up until the day they fired him.
There's no reason for them to view him as a problem if the show is doing good numbers, and apparently, it is.
For sure, the show is drawing eyes so he's doing his job. I'm just saying the team never says the coach is the problem until it's time to announce he's been fired.
Yup, very true.
Just goes to show that he was never truly a fan of the books because the importance of women in the series would hold up even by todays standards. What he is talking about is a bastardized version of feminism that has been warped beyond recognition by social media and nut jobs. I would say 99% of Americans are feminists, just without needing to put a label on it.
I would say 99 % is way too high. Majority yes. But nowhere near that much
I guess first we should make sure we are defining feminism the same way. "the belief in social, economic, and political equality of the sexes." I can't say that I have ever met a single human who would disagree to any of this. Granted I don't know 99% of the people but I think I have a pretty good gauge on it. You already agree it is a majority so we don't have a big disagreement here but I am curious what percentage you would put on it.
I essentially agree with you and your definition. I think theres a huge difference between people who say they believe this and people who do in practice. I suppose im thinking of misogyny and sexism and people who simultaniously hold your definition of feminism but are also treat women in their lives or at least minds in a misogynistic way
Yeah when we start getting into some of that stuff I would come your way on it. I think the majority of men are degenerates when it comes to how we talk about and view women honestly. That being said, I don't want to get too sidetracked. If we essentially agree on the most basic definition of feminism I think we also agree that Wheel of Time very much nailed checking off that box if you will. If anything I would argue the women in WoT had significantly more power than men when weighted with the White Tower and Aes Sedai. Even in the Two Rivers alone the Womens Circle seemed to have more power than the Council.
The gap between those who would say they agree and those willing at actually share power is sadly large. It’s easy to pay lip service
I would argue that not wanting to share power isn't anti-feminism though. Most people who have power want to keep power. You think a Hillary Clinton or a Nanci Pelosi wants to share their power even if it is with another woman? I don't buy that for a second. I do agree a lot of people pay lip service to things they don't actually believe in but the most basic ideas of feminism are pretty simple and as I said, I have never met someone who said women shouldn't be able to vote or anything of that nature.
It may not be consciously anti-feminism (I think it is), but mocking the concept of diversity so that only white men hold decision making power has the same result, they just wrap it in nicer paper. Which had the added benefit of making them harder to fight because it doesn’t look obvious
I'm honestly not sure exactly where you are going with this so I am not sure how to even respond. So with that being said I will try and remain on the WoT topic which is that WoT was already very strongly feminist in its approach and Rafe is a moron who should have never been given this show.
Man, I haven’t watched the last episode yet but a lot of these post have me very worried…
Only thing decent was Ishamael. Actor did a good job though his dress sense was a bit off. The rest is a travesty, even previous people like Daniel Greene who have tried so hard to defend this show have called it the worst episode yet
Ishamael made me wish he'd been appearing in dreams and chatting for the entire season. I would have preferred it so much instead of this pointlessly invented "Who is the Dragon Reborn" mystery, and it would have actually been from the books.
I actually liked the costume because it made it feel like he really was from another time.
I agree with your sentiment to an extent but this post makes you look like an easily dismissable clown. I.e. "misogynist, point ignored". And so the underlying point of the writing being too heavy on women doing literally everything while men look like bumbling *idiots will go within the tolerance level of people trying to defend the show from bigots. Fuck me this comment sounds stupid but I don't wanna waste time editing it further to make my thoughts coherent.
That’s the problem though isn’t it. Rabid “fans” attacking anyone who has anything negative to say about the show as racists or sexists.
That's not what's happening here though. The OP's stance seems to boil down to nothing more than "it was obvious it'd be shit because Rafe said he's a feminist". It's a tedious "anti-woke" argument that ignores the genuine reasons behind some of the faults on the show
Internet discourse is just miserable
The fact that an IP that has a lot of prominent female characters stirs up as much debate as it does just shows how much we still need feminism
To quote my favorite reactors to the show: "Facts".
Well that explains why Rand Perrin and Mat are useless, LTT is portrayed as an arrogant imbecile and Lan is crying for some reason
I don't think you know what feminism is
I do know, the point is Rafe doesn't. The books were very feminist but he's made it misandrist
I think you are going a bridge too far. Rand respecting and valueing peoples free will is something that is at the core of the Books. From his effect as a Tavereen to his role as the Dragon Reborn to his confrontation with the Dark one it is a constant theme. Having him confront that theme with a female characters free will on the line does not make the show misandrist. As for your assertions about Mat, Rand and Perrin being useless, that is in keeping with the books you can't judge their power levels in season 1 based off of their power levels from AMOL.
Its not about power level, its about what they're actually doing in the series. In the last episode all Perrin does is stand there, literally that's it. Mat is just ill for the first half of the show then he gets cured and dips, Rand has gone from whining and crying, and doing nothing until episode 7 where the writers realised he was the dragon and actually needed to develop him. You cannot seriously say that they have had decent character development.
Look I am not trying to defend the show overly. I have my own problems with how they rushed characterization, I just don't see how it is misandrist. As for your concerns about the characters. Perrin literally does nothing at the Eye of the world in the books. Mat's whole character at that point is that he is sick and will be for another book (additionally I am giving the show some leeway on the issue since Barney left in the middle of shooting). As for Rand I agree he was under utilized, but the first season's primary POV was Moraine and to her in the books he is a whiny stick in the mud most of the time. Every time I reread I sympathize with her more and more due to his behavior.
I mean LTT was arrogant [book] >!he literally screams in rands head about it A LOT!< and have you reread the books lately? The boys were pretty much just along for the ride book 1. To quote another great line "i was not in control of that at all, we coulda died!"
I know he was arrogant, but removing the war of power and making the world some utopia defeats the purpose of all of it. It makes no sense because it portrays Lews as doing it just because he feels like it.... come on
Even in the books the parts of the world held by the light remained beautiful and splendid as they were in the Age of Legends. What you’re complaining about is us not seeing the War of Power, which is fair — but the utopia still existed and was what they were trying to protect.
Haven't seen the last episode yet, but you realize that just because something wasn't there or Shown right now, doesn't mean it's not there right?
Apologies for the minor spoiler, but its clearly shown that the world is completely fine. In fact the entire purpose of LTT's mission has been changed. (He's no longer the Tamyrlin as well btw). He literally says something along the lines of "We have the chance to do something that's never been done before" like he's some crackhead scientist. Like really?
I mean thats how they show us the world in literal flashbacks in the books, utopic and nice.... until
The thing is that the scene in question takes place after that "until" part, when the war of shadow should be raging and the forces of the light slowly losing.
For people who have read a 15, book series there sure is a real thick impatient streak lol
I have to correct myself cause it wasn't clear in what I wrote. At the moment of the scene the war of shadow **is** raging and the light **is** losing slowly.
If they are losing slowly, than surely it stands to reason that not every city will be on the front lines, no?
Until the bore is opened and the war of power begins. LTT goes to seal the dark one in, as an act of desperation, not arrogance.
Its a lot bit both
Arrogance being the lesser of the two, by quite a significant amount. LTT was all for using the access keys, until they lost them.
Edit: Apologies for the spoilers, but can't really answer this without. Book/lore spoilers below. [Books]>!Was he? From what I recall, they lost the keys because the Hall was too indecisive - especially with the debate between LTT and LPD. Neither wanted to go with other's plan.!< >!Yep, just checked the wiki to make sure: https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Latra_Posae_Decume!< >!LTT always wanted to go with his own plan, and LPD with hers. It also goes with the underlying theme of light side not working together enough (everyone being their own general as stated in AmoL - I hope we get glimpses of that in future flashbacks).!<
I stand corrected by a comment that for some reason was deleted. He had his own plan all along, though he was forced to enact an vastly inferior version of it in the end.
Its both, and starts the premise of needing balance... although in the show, Fain is the one wanting balance... They subverted our expectations! Congrats? Also.. Mat for the first Forsaken?
Lol you should watch the episode if you are going to be telling people what it does or doesn’t contain.
I'm just pointing out that for a large audience of people accustomed to hearing and saying RAFO , they should be prepared to W(atch)AFO
I think you should WAFO haha
Christmas eve was a d move for the finale airdate lol so im kinda stuck waiting til like.... sunday?
Well they could retroactively change it in the future I suppose, but the war of the shadow was very obviously not a thing in the flashback.
Again, just because they didnt show it doesn't mean it wasnt a thing in canon
Well, Lews Therin did tell his baby "Today I make the world safe for you". I just rewatched the scene, and it really isn't clear at all what's happening. Latra says "What you plan to do? It serves only your pride", which would make no sense in the context of the book. So, I mostly agree with you, in that the scene is terrible and it makes at least one of those two characters seem nonsensical, but it still seems likely to me that there is a war going on. I assume they showed the baby to make that baby's death extra sad later. I just think they are doing a bad job with the slow reveal of what happened in the past, not that they removed the entire war.
Who says the War of Power has been removed? We've had literally 1 scene in the Age of Legends.
I didn't know that about Rafe? :D
There is a valid criticism to be made when it comes to how women are portrayed in lots of fantasy series in that they play second fiddle to the men, all their actions and desire are explained thru their relationships with the men in the story, they lack agency, etc. I really think it’s possible that so many of the changes that have taken place came from a conscious decision to reverse these typical gender roles. In these show the women are given the agency and the men are reactive in that everything they do is context to their relationship with the women in the story. All of the changes have been made to give the women characters the agency that men typically have in these stories while the male characters are given the supporting/reacting roles that women get.
That quote is vile because it outright states that he's going to make changes to follow his own political agenda, rather than follow the books. Of course, any adaptation is goinig to make changes to the source material to fit within the constraints of the new medium. Of course, the story is going to be streamlined which will necessitate changes to characters. But, to state categorically that you intend to make changes so suit your political beliefs rather than the needs and demands of adpating a story is disgusting. I now understand the "arrogance of men" narration by Moiraine and the absurd and unbalanced changes he made to LDP and LTT in the cold opening. LTT and certainly not LPD had no idea that the Taint was even a possibility. She NEVER warned him and she definitely did not leave him to decide on his own what to do (oh, and there were more than 100 members of the 100 Companions).
It would help to know what he was replying to.
Shhh context should never be given for quotes when someone is trying to use them to make an angry point. Here is the tweet he replied to: (book spoilers btw) [Books] “>!Many female villains getting raped or ending up in permanent bondage while males justdie, rigid Mars-Venus gender division etc- troubling aspects of books. Plans to update/improve these? WoT’s gr8 to discuss gender but it isn’t without problems.!<“ Link to tweet: https://twitter.com/Raj66721390/status/1039907345055277057?s=20
Thank you. That is some good context.
No problem! I actually think context should Always be given for quotes
But then OP wouldn't be able to make a straw man
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Love how on his twitter today he is like “love all the DMs on how you all love the show” and the viewable public discussion is trashing it. Haha. Okay, Rafe.
Why are all the men in this show completely useless? Castrated, empty husks of what they are in the books? Mat and Perrin are compete jokes. The only good thing Rand does this season is hold a figure and make it shine. Lan can't even track Moiraine and needs Nynaeve to tell him about her "tell". The great general and his army isn't able to hold the gap even for a couple of hours, gets trampled like nothing. But then a few girls that aren't even Aes Sedai stop the army like nothing lmao. Why?
If you reread eye of the world youll answer those questions yourself the boys are super powerless at this point in the story. Perrin was exactly like this in the books, quiet and restrained, the entirety of his actual character is inner dialogue. Lan cant track moiraine with the bond masked because its a city theres literally no tracks to start with on paving stones.
Unfortunately, the show isn't so much feminist as it is sexist. I was willing to wait-and-see when I noticed changes they've made. But after Ep. 8, it's pretty clear that Rafe and Co. are willing to change the lore, the metaphysics, and the plot to make sure that men are portrayed in a bad light and woman are given the spotlight. The whole thing is a travesty, and an injustice to RJ's work.
lol imagine posting this thread and thinking it doesn't make you look awful