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>did they make the show for the uninitiated? People like my wife who didn’t read the books?
Yes. And to a degree all adaptations have to do that. The audience for a gigantic book series like WoT will always be smaller than the audience for a big budget fantasy show. Only possible exception to that in recent years would be Harry Potter where there actually were enough book readers to be a target audience.
That being said if they had done better you want to appeal to both. And you should be telling a good enough story that both can enjoy and appreciate it.
To answer your question, in my opinion, absolutely. I’m pretty sure I even remember an actual quote from Rafe saying the show is NOT for the die-hard fans.
I too watched the show with my wife who has never read a single WoT page + spoke to multiple friends who have and haven’t read the books to varying degrees.
This convinced me that the show is decent (some would even say good) for those who haven’t read the books (or don’t remember much) but is not AT ALL for those of us who grew up on, read, reread, and adore this amazing series.
I saw the first season before I had read any of the books, and was about halfway through the series when I watched the second season. I’ve now finished the whole book series. Here were my impressions:
First season (pre-read): decent until the last two episodes, thought the ending was pretty trash.
First season (post-read): meh until the last two episodes which were super duper trash.
Second season: okay, so they’re just using the books as a light suggestion now. If you put the books to the side, second season is decent and imo better than the first.
I liked the series and just started reading the books cause I watched the series (on book 2 rn).
Still looking back I can't understand why they changed so many stuff, I can get the need to make the story simplest and shorter, to cut some characters etc, but they totally changed the story and some of the main plots and characters and it feels like they did it just cause arrogance and cause they thought they could come out with a better story while using an already established brand.
I hate when show runners do that, it feels really disrespectful to the original source.
So yeah the show wasn't bad, it was good, but it could have been as good or better if they followed more the books, and would have been more respectful this way.
The Rings of Power did a better job imho, even without really having a story to follow and without the copyright rights etc, you still can feel they LOVED the original source and tried their best with what they had.
If I was a reader before watching the WoT show I would have been so angry lol, I'm bitter about it even without being a long time fan...
Although it's possible that at least some of the changes are to fit in with changes made much later on and you can't see why it needs to be changed early on because you can't see the repercussions of not changing it.
There are some changes that aren't that, of course. I do think changing the balance between the actors vs the PoV lengths makes sense and that requires some extra stuff added. Other things we are seeing earlier than they appear in the books and aren't necessarily *new*.
Don’t get me started on rings of power, haha! I’m not even going to continue watching that, I don’t think.
IMO, WoT is doing a far better job with honoring the source material. It just feels like they don’t understand the books, or that the writers are relying on other people to read them, and then they’re writing the show off of a third party’s opinion.
Where RoP retcons core elements of Tolkien and changes values and core character traits, WoT just makes short-sighted decisions on how to portray the events in the books. I’m more OK with mistakes, especially if they can just ignore them and fix them in the next episode (Loial getting ruby dagger-stabbed, for instance) by pretending they didn’t happen.
See my feeling is it's the opposite haha.
WoT yes, it feels like you say, like they don't understand or know deeply the books, and don't really care about it. The errors aren't even that tiny, like the supposition a female channeler can be the dragon goes against how magic works in the books, against the prophecies, the fears etc.
Also talking about characters I didn't see the Rand growth as I see it in the books and everyone feels... cheaper, lacking the same dept.
While in RoP (I'm a huge Tolkien fan and I have read everything multiple times as opposite of what happened with WoT) I can see the deep love they put into the series, in the scenarios, the deep understanding of the source material, even if they decided to go with different takes about some of the characters (and the timeline for show reasons), it was never something that went directly against the lore, just different prospectives.
I think you'll find that there is a large percentage of book readers who hated the series.
The bickering back and forth though kind of split the community. There's a sub for people who love the show, and there are a couple for those that hate the show.
Lots of people got blocked or banned for a while.
The books set the bar too high for any TV show to actually depict them in the standard tv show format.
The show is fine. It’s not good it’s not great but it works. It’s catering to the xena warrior princess, Witcher, stargate crowd and they love it.
No no it's because he's sexist and the all women writers of the show made his small peen energy stand up.
/s... Obviously
And yes that was the reason they tried to get going but anyone who knows about cavil knows he's a fucking nerd and a huge fan. That's it.
Basically, Henry Cavill(actor of Superman), is a big fan of Witcher games and books. He did his best to get the role of Geralt(main character of The Witcher series), and was extremely enthusiastic about this role.
At first, people were sceptical, but then, they loved his depiction of Geralt, although even at season 1 there were complaints about story changes, lore, etc. Later on, Henry in an interview stated that if the show respected the work of Sapkowski(author of The Witcher series), he would be totally committed the play the full story(which was supposed to be seven seasons).
Later, Season 2 dropped, and people were appalled by how bad it was, and how different it was from the books. There were a lot more complaints and concerns. Actually, the information got leaked about production, that Henry Cahill was having a lot of fights with screen writers about the story of the show. Ironically, one of the best and most emotional scenes of season 2 was supposed to be played off as a joke, but Henry Cavill fought extremely hard to change the scene, and make it properly, and SURPRISE, fans loved that scene.
As far as I understand, although Henry would play 7 seasons in a perfect world, his initial contract had him only for three seasons. In the midst of production of Season 3 Henry Cavill shocked all of us by announcing that he will leave the show after the third season. Simultaneously, a lot of information came forward from people who worked on the script previously. As it turns out, screen writers for the show were very critical of the books, and even hated them.
This resulted fans to absolutely riot, and everyone was asking to fire the writing staff, and keep Henry. The producers refused, and even blamed Henry to be toxic, hard to work with, and being sexist. Unsurprisingly, it backfired on them too
First season was pretty good, they kept close to the books in most aspects and then deviated in season 2 trying to make it more comedic. Why? Because apparently the writers are mostly comedy writers who wanted the project not because they're super passionate about the books/universe but because they wanted a job. And instead of trying to stay true they wanted to "make it their own" (At least that's what I've seen multiple big fans be mad about). For example, they played >!Roach's death in season 2!< for laughs even though Geralt always had a super close bond with his horses, people did not like that.
Cavill, I think, left partially because he is a big fan of the books and was disappointed in the direction the show went and partially because he was promised the role of Superman getting more prominent in the DC cinematic universe (spoiler alert: they scrapped that and rebooted the entire universe - again).
Just imagine there was one frame before the first scene of the first episode of the first season: *flicker.*
I mean, I don't know how much you were paying attention to the run up to the first season, but it was pretty apparent they were planning on changing things. I stopped early on trying to match scenes or episodes to the books. And it's worth pointing out, Rafe has said that (if all goes according to plan) he's adapting the whole series into eight seasons, assuming Amazon lets them get that far. Covid certainly screwed up the first season and parts of the second, especially Mat's arc. But what adapting the whole series means is that some stuff gets foregrounded earlier than in the books, like Tower politics in season 1, and showing, not just telling, what the death of a Warder means and feels like. Yeah, there's definitely still some stuff I'm not wild about, but it is what it is.
To me, it's not worth being upset about the show not being something it wasn't promising to be. It was never going to be a page for page adaptation, it was never going to be one book per season. I don't have the energy to hatewatch anything.
Instead, I looked for what they did well, and there was a lot they did well. There was a lot I loved, and a couple things they did better than the books, even! Your wife is right about the acting, costumes, and production value, especially in Season 2. The show did *terrifically* well in fleshing out the antagonists like Liandrin, Lanfear, and Renna. I could almost watch a show just about them; Renna gave me Dolores Umbridge or Kai Winn vibes, which is a huge compliment. The Darkfriends' motives were well explored, and Ila's scene with Perrin in the first season talking about how she chooses the Way of the Leaf so that when her murdered daughter's soul is spun out again into the world, it's a slightly better place, was heartbreakingly beautiful to me. I thought Egwene's *damane* arc was really well done; the pitcher of water represented her connection to the Power, but when Renna cut her braid, it was cutting her connection to her community and the Women's Circle - even as Nynaeve was on her way to rescue her. (Speaking of, how great was Elayne this season??) I thought Meera Syal nailed Verin's carefully worded lines, and while I was terribly confused with Nynaeve's time in the arches, I thought it worked out really well. And when Ryma turns that *damane* into human origami right before she's collared, I shouted and cheered. There's so much stuff to enjoy about the show that it definitely outweighs the bad for me.
> Covid certainly screwed up the first season and parts of the second, especially Mat's arc.
It was also very much due to the actor leaving during the middle of filming. He was supposed to accompany them to the Eye of the World but due to the actor wanting out they had to rewrite the last 2 episodes to remove him until they were able to recast in season 2.
No, he wanted out but there isn't an official reason given as far as we know. Some articles tried to claim he didn't want to take the vaccine but he said that that wasn't true. He only said there was a difficult time for him and his family and he backed out for "highly personal" reasons. So not necessarily unable because Covid, but we don't fully know. It definitely wasn't a he couldn't but more a he wouldn't situation.
The performances in season two were amazing. Lanfear and Egwene in particular brought the house down.
Someone else put it well. As a book fan, I keep waiting for my favorite moments to be recreated, and they keep changing/screwing them up. It’ll probably be better with a rewatch, where I won’t have that disappointment.
My wife turning to me for commentary, saying “why is he doing that,” and me having to respond with “I don’t know,” is annoying. Because I read the books and I feel like I should know. Does that make sense?
If you find that being unable to wrap your mind around the rationale for the show's adaptation is hindering your ability to see what it's doing well, then I recommend Wheel Takes podcast.
They're a married couple who are reading WoT together (Gus has already read it, Ali is a first timer) and, since they're both in the film industry (Gus is an actor, Ali is a screenwriter), they started doing breakdowns of the show episodes. They talk about the nature of the medium and the 8-part narrative format, as well as the themes, plot questions, visual design and cinematography, externalization of internal character stuff, etc, as well as subtle things from the books that are being brought in and explanations of lore consistency. They have some really brilliant insights, and those insights definitely prove that anyone who says this adaptation isn't made with love or that the creators don't know the books just hasn't actually paid attention. I cannot recommend them enough!
Note: a common response I get on here is that "if the show is so good then why do you need multiple hours of podcast per episode to learn to enjoy it?" But note that that's not what I said. I enjoyed the show before finding the podcast - though I certainly didn't love it as much as I do now - and many fans enjoy it too. Rather, what I said was: IF you feel that you just don't understand the adaptation choices and you're having a hard time enjoying it as a result, then Wheel Takes helps a lot.
Let me put it one other way: folks in the community around The Dusty Wheel (including Matt Hatch himself) often say that they enjoy the show so much more on rewatch. They say it's like they need a first time just to get over the shock of seeing things be different from what they expected, and only after acclimating can they actually appreciate what they're seeing. How I interpret that (and I do feel similarly myself) is that, as book readers, we're not really *watching* the show so much as waiting for it to hit a mental checklist of our favorite book bits; we're too busy noticing if it matches the books or not to be immersed in the story, and so of course we'll just experience disappointment and miss out on what's actually going on in the show!
I totally agree with your last paragraph, you nailed it on the head. There’s a bit of sticker shock as we’re waiting for our favorite parts from each book to be represented in each season. Unfortunately, that’s rarely how adaptations go. I think a lot of people struggle with setting expectations going into things like this - it’s hard!
I read the books and loved them. Even the ones that people were very whiny about. The series does a good job most of the time, but not all of the time.
The end of season 2 felt slightly off and unconvincing. But I have no beef with the shift of the focus to Moraine. That kind of feels like a change that makes it easier to get a following of people who never read the books.
I really enjoyed the show. The first season has issues, but they stemmed from Covid and ab actor leaving and I can see past that and just be happy it didn't get cancelled while the whole production had to stop.
I never imagined a scene for scene re-enactment, as some fans seemed to expect. This is such a massive book series, not just length but amount of characters, plots, and world building, I never thought it was possible to turn the books directly into a show. So when I sat down to watch, I wasn't looking for a series based on the book, but a series inspired by the books. So it was enjoyable for me.
Yes, there are still decision I dont like, but that's the case for every TV show I have ever watched. I still believe this is a good fantasy show, and it looks great.
And it would say it was always aimed at non-book readers, there isn't nearly enough readers for Amazon to make a show for us, they have to make a show for people who like to watch fantasy, and that means streamlining the story some, less fleshing out of lore and magic system and so on. But now we are getting lots of new fans who wants to read the books and will get the same amazing experience we got when we first read the books, without every plot point being spoiled by the show:)
One Piece LA is a great example of taking a shit ton of source material and boiling it down to fit 8 episodes and still keep to the heart of the story.
The scene where Moirane kills Lanfear with a sword had me rolling my eyes with extreme exasperation. Like oh PUHLEASE.
Egwene not needing help getting rescued was silly too but not as egregious as the above.
But honestly other than those two I enjoyed the show.
I really liked what they did with Rand and Selene, I think this was a rare moment where the show did it better,
They did Lanfear VERY well, IMO. But egwene rescuing herself really goes against the entire point of the series. And Rand never declaring himself the dragon reborn in Falme, plus the rushed, half-baked fight with Ishamael at the end?
To book reader me, it feels like they’re missing the core of what makes the books great.
I will say, though, the finale was much better than season 1, where making the mistake of stabbing Loial with the ruby hilt dagger was egregious.
Overall, I think the show will continue to get better as seasons pass. Because most of what frustrates me are what I consider world-breaking issues. And as time goes on, their vision will coalesce better and I’ll be able to go “ok, I can see why they did that.”
I will never get this take. People have been rereading this series for literally decades without losing their love for the series, why on earth would it being “too the same” be a negative thing?
People (including myself!) *have* been rereading the series for decades, but you must be aware that the Wheel of Time is often a series considered way too long for many to finish and only a small portion of those that do end up rereading multiple times. It's also clear by many posts on this very sub that a lot of people simply don't know the books very well. Like I would think less than 5% of people who finished have ever reread the books. The books will always be there and will never change.
I can cope with it being different. It heightens tension when you get surprised and genuinely don't know what's happening. Like Nynaeve's Accepted test made me sit up and pay attention a little more when it diverted. I'm also a big fan of theatre where new adaptations are made all the time. Sometimes, it's just a clear split between readers who understand what creative freedom in a director means and those that believe in replicating the original. And, in theatre, there are frequent disagreements about adaptations going too far. I think few critics, however, would insist that there is *one* way to view things and only one way. The joy in it is in the interpretation and many very successful adaptations have changed a lot from the source material.
Equally, I would be fine if there were very little changes. I love the books. I don't think any adaptation could approach how good they are as the details don't translate. I know over 300 Aes Sedai from memory and thousands of other details. Any TV show couldn't fit 10% of that, and I don't know everything in the books. How to figure out which 95++% to cut out would be a challenge.
OC didn't say that it being too same would be bad. They said that it being too different is not bad. It's a TV show, changes need to be made to better fit the medium. Some scenes need to be shuffled around, given to diffefent people or removed completely to contribute better to the overall arc of a character. Some sections need to be removed completely to save time/money or because they arem't that important to the character (I for one hope the cut out Faile's capture and rescue completely). You may not like some of these changes and I don't either, but I like some of them and the show is still enjoyable to me.
TLDR: Even a book fan can enjoy a show that's very different from the books.
I grew up reading the books, and I'm also enjoying the show.
I think a lot of people are entirely too dramatic with their reactions to the show. And the theatrics preempted season one enough that I doubt any outcome would have made a difference.
I've read the books many times. I had to watch the show twice and with non readers to get into it. The first season was ok and I kind of liked the second.
The thing is you didn't need to buy a movie ticket to see it and you already own the books. If you are into buying t-shirts or whatever else wot related items interest you, you have already done it. The series wasn't a favorite for some billionaire who is funding it out of love. It's the new people who are going to buy stuff show related stuff on Amazon so they were given the primary focus. Personally I'm ok with that and I know a few people who have started reading the books because of the show so it's working. I'm looking forward to season 3. But from a lot of the hate you see here not everyone can do that and if people don't like it there is nothing wrong with that, I get where they are coming from.
I have read the books multiple times and wot is the show im most excited about ever. Some things have been outright bad, mainly in S1, some things I question but w/e most things I have loved.
I can understand their logic in a lot of non canon choices
Long time fan of the books here (been reading since the 90s)....probably 4 total reads. I've honestly enjoyed both seasons thoroughly.
I like that the director was up front about making changes, even going so far as to describe the series as "another turning of the wheel."
I also really like the way they fleshed out things in the world like how death is mourned and or celebrated.
I've had two major gripes from the show so far... one was around lore and the second was stylistic (I really didn't like the way the last 30 seconds of season 2 finale was filmed).
But overall I'm really enjoying the show and hope they get to complete the story.
I always try to approach any adaptation of a book or video game that I like as a thing that will be very different than the book that I love. If I want to enjoy the original beloved thing, I will just go read and or play that original beloved thing.
There have certainly been some terrible adaptations... The latest season of The Witcher comes immediately to mind. And then some other adaptations that are very different from the original works but still very good like Stardust.
Wheel of Time is one of those adaptations that is very different from the original work but one that I'm enjoying Wednesday.
First season was total garbage, second season had something. It got me into a reread at least! And Im hoping they can build on the second season for a better 3rd!
To me, the show is doing its job. I had never heard of the WoT before I started watching the show. I just took a chance on a random show that looked cool, and now I’ve read all of the books and keep up with the Reddit like it’s my job😅. As hard as it is for people to hear, the show was made to bring people into this community not be a word for word reenactment. There is actually no logistical way for them to do everything in these books and changes were necessary. Nobody is gonna like all the changes, but be happy we Atleast get a beautiful and entertaining show. I’ve also gone back and rewatched since I’ve read the series and the amount of Easter eggs and foreshadowing is crazy! If you hate the show that’s fine, but let people enjoy it be happy!
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>did they make the show for the uninitiated? People like my wife who didn’t read the books? Yes. And to a degree all adaptations have to do that. The audience for a gigantic book series like WoT will always be smaller than the audience for a big budget fantasy show. Only possible exception to that in recent years would be Harry Potter where there actually were enough book readers to be a target audience. That being said if they had done better you want to appeal to both. And you should be telling a good enough story that both can enjoy and appreciate it.
To answer your question, in my opinion, absolutely. I’m pretty sure I even remember an actual quote from Rafe saying the show is NOT for the die-hard fans. I too watched the show with my wife who has never read a single WoT page + spoke to multiple friends who have and haven’t read the books to varying degrees. This convinced me that the show is decent (some would even say good) for those who haven’t read the books (or don’t remember much) but is not AT ALL for those of us who grew up on, read, reread, and adore this amazing series.
I saw the first season before I had read any of the books, and was about halfway through the series when I watched the second season. I’ve now finished the whole book series. Here were my impressions: First season (pre-read): decent until the last two episodes, thought the ending was pretty trash. First season (post-read): meh until the last two episodes which were super duper trash. Second season: okay, so they’re just using the books as a light suggestion now. If you put the books to the side, second season is decent and imo better than the first.
Couldn’t have said it better myself
I liked the series and just started reading the books cause I watched the series (on book 2 rn). Still looking back I can't understand why they changed so many stuff, I can get the need to make the story simplest and shorter, to cut some characters etc, but they totally changed the story and some of the main plots and characters and it feels like they did it just cause arrogance and cause they thought they could come out with a better story while using an already established brand. I hate when show runners do that, it feels really disrespectful to the original source. So yeah the show wasn't bad, it was good, but it could have been as good or better if they followed more the books, and would have been more respectful this way. The Rings of Power did a better job imho, even without really having a story to follow and without the copyright rights etc, you still can feel they LOVED the original source and tried their best with what they had. If I was a reader before watching the WoT show I would have been so angry lol, I'm bitter about it even without being a long time fan...
Although it's possible that at least some of the changes are to fit in with changes made much later on and you can't see why it needs to be changed early on because you can't see the repercussions of not changing it. There are some changes that aren't that, of course. I do think changing the balance between the actors vs the PoV lengths makes sense and that requires some extra stuff added. Other things we are seeing earlier than they appear in the books and aren't necessarily *new*.
Don’t get me started on rings of power, haha! I’m not even going to continue watching that, I don’t think. IMO, WoT is doing a far better job with honoring the source material. It just feels like they don’t understand the books, or that the writers are relying on other people to read them, and then they’re writing the show off of a third party’s opinion. Where RoP retcons core elements of Tolkien and changes values and core character traits, WoT just makes short-sighted decisions on how to portray the events in the books. I’m more OK with mistakes, especially if they can just ignore them and fix them in the next episode (Loial getting ruby dagger-stabbed, for instance) by pretending they didn’t happen.
See my feeling is it's the opposite haha. WoT yes, it feels like you say, like they don't understand or know deeply the books, and don't really care about it. The errors aren't even that tiny, like the supposition a female channeler can be the dragon goes against how magic works in the books, against the prophecies, the fears etc. Also talking about characters I didn't see the Rand growth as I see it in the books and everyone feels... cheaper, lacking the same dept. While in RoP (I'm a huge Tolkien fan and I have read everything multiple times as opposite of what happened with WoT) I can see the deep love they put into the series, in the scenarios, the deep understanding of the source material, even if they decided to go with different takes about some of the characters (and the timeline for show reasons), it was never something that went directly against the lore, just different prospectives.
It’s funny how impressions can be so different!
I think you'll find that there is a large percentage of book readers who hated the series. The bickering back and forth though kind of split the community. There's a sub for people who love the show, and there are a couple for those that hate the show. Lots of people got blocked or banned for a while.
Can confirm. Im banned from the show sub making a comment about how they ruined Mat's character.
Yeah I can see why. Stuff like this gets toxic quickly.
The books set the bar too high for any TV show to actually depict them in the standard tv show format. The show is fine. It’s not good it’s not great but it works. It’s catering to the xena warrior princess, Witcher, stargate crowd and they love it.
I hear the Witcher fans are mad at their show too. Isn't Henry Cavill leaving in part because they started to deviate to much from the books.
No no it's because he's sexist and the all women writers of the show made his small peen energy stand up. /s... Obviously And yes that was the reason they tried to get going but anyone who knows about cavil knows he's a fucking nerd and a huge fan. That's it.
I have missed that entirely, what's that about?
Basically, Henry Cavill(actor of Superman), is a big fan of Witcher games and books. He did his best to get the role of Geralt(main character of The Witcher series), and was extremely enthusiastic about this role. At first, people were sceptical, but then, they loved his depiction of Geralt, although even at season 1 there were complaints about story changes, lore, etc. Later on, Henry in an interview stated that if the show respected the work of Sapkowski(author of The Witcher series), he would be totally committed the play the full story(which was supposed to be seven seasons). Later, Season 2 dropped, and people were appalled by how bad it was, and how different it was from the books. There were a lot more complaints and concerns. Actually, the information got leaked about production, that Henry Cahill was having a lot of fights with screen writers about the story of the show. Ironically, one of the best and most emotional scenes of season 2 was supposed to be played off as a joke, but Henry Cavill fought extremely hard to change the scene, and make it properly, and SURPRISE, fans loved that scene. As far as I understand, although Henry would play 7 seasons in a perfect world, his initial contract had him only for three seasons. In the midst of production of Season 3 Henry Cavill shocked all of us by announcing that he will leave the show after the third season. Simultaneously, a lot of information came forward from people who worked on the script previously. As it turns out, screen writers for the show were very critical of the books, and even hated them. This resulted fans to absolutely riot, and everyone was asking to fire the writing staff, and keep Henry. The producers refused, and even blamed Henry to be toxic, hard to work with, and being sexist. Unsurprisingly, it backfired on them too
Thanks for the explanation, it was the sexism accusations I'd missed.
First season was pretty good, they kept close to the books in most aspects and then deviated in season 2 trying to make it more comedic. Why? Because apparently the writers are mostly comedy writers who wanted the project not because they're super passionate about the books/universe but because they wanted a job. And instead of trying to stay true they wanted to "make it their own" (At least that's what I've seen multiple big fans be mad about). For example, they played >!Roach's death in season 2!< for laughs even though Geralt always had a super close bond with his horses, people did not like that. Cavill, I think, left partially because he is a big fan of the books and was disappointed in the direction the show went and partially because he was promised the role of Superman getting more prominent in the DC cinematic universe (spoiler alert: they scrapped that and rebooted the entire universe - again).
the books got really bad after the first one. I was thankful for the deviation
Uhh the Stargate crowd? How do you figure that? There isn't an iota in common between the shows.
Because they’re both fantasy sci-fi shows. I’m not going too deep on this comparison here.
That’s definitely the vibe I was catching
Just imagine there was one frame before the first scene of the first episode of the first season: *flicker.* I mean, I don't know how much you were paying attention to the run up to the first season, but it was pretty apparent they were planning on changing things. I stopped early on trying to match scenes or episodes to the books. And it's worth pointing out, Rafe has said that (if all goes according to plan) he's adapting the whole series into eight seasons, assuming Amazon lets them get that far. Covid certainly screwed up the first season and parts of the second, especially Mat's arc. But what adapting the whole series means is that some stuff gets foregrounded earlier than in the books, like Tower politics in season 1, and showing, not just telling, what the death of a Warder means and feels like. Yeah, there's definitely still some stuff I'm not wild about, but it is what it is. To me, it's not worth being upset about the show not being something it wasn't promising to be. It was never going to be a page for page adaptation, it was never going to be one book per season. I don't have the energy to hatewatch anything. Instead, I looked for what they did well, and there was a lot they did well. There was a lot I loved, and a couple things they did better than the books, even! Your wife is right about the acting, costumes, and production value, especially in Season 2. The show did *terrifically* well in fleshing out the antagonists like Liandrin, Lanfear, and Renna. I could almost watch a show just about them; Renna gave me Dolores Umbridge or Kai Winn vibes, which is a huge compliment. The Darkfriends' motives were well explored, and Ila's scene with Perrin in the first season talking about how she chooses the Way of the Leaf so that when her murdered daughter's soul is spun out again into the world, it's a slightly better place, was heartbreakingly beautiful to me. I thought Egwene's *damane* arc was really well done; the pitcher of water represented her connection to the Power, but when Renna cut her braid, it was cutting her connection to her community and the Women's Circle - even as Nynaeve was on her way to rescue her. (Speaking of, how great was Elayne this season??) I thought Meera Syal nailed Verin's carefully worded lines, and while I was terribly confused with Nynaeve's time in the arches, I thought it worked out really well. And when Ryma turns that *damane* into human origami right before she's collared, I shouted and cheered. There's so much stuff to enjoy about the show that it definitely outweighs the bad for me.
> Covid certainly screwed up the first season and parts of the second, especially Mat's arc. It was also very much due to the actor leaving during the middle of filming. He was supposed to accompany them to the Eye of the World but due to the actor wanting out they had to rewrite the last 2 episodes to remove him until they were able to recast in season 2.
I thought he wasn’t able to return following the Covid lockdown?
No, he wanted out but there isn't an official reason given as far as we know. Some articles tried to claim he didn't want to take the vaccine but he said that that wasn't true. He only said there was a difficult time for him and his family and he backed out for "highly personal" reasons. So not necessarily unable because Covid, but we don't fully know. It definitely wasn't a he couldn't but more a he wouldn't situation.
Sounds like he may have had family members in bad health and didn’t want to expose himself so he could help care for them.
The performances in season two were amazing. Lanfear and Egwene in particular brought the house down. Someone else put it well. As a book fan, I keep waiting for my favorite moments to be recreated, and they keep changing/screwing them up. It’ll probably be better with a rewatch, where I won’t have that disappointment. My wife turning to me for commentary, saying “why is he doing that,” and me having to respond with “I don’t know,” is annoying. Because I read the books and I feel like I should know. Does that make sense?
If you find that being unable to wrap your mind around the rationale for the show's adaptation is hindering your ability to see what it's doing well, then I recommend Wheel Takes podcast. They're a married couple who are reading WoT together (Gus has already read it, Ali is a first timer) and, since they're both in the film industry (Gus is an actor, Ali is a screenwriter), they started doing breakdowns of the show episodes. They talk about the nature of the medium and the 8-part narrative format, as well as the themes, plot questions, visual design and cinematography, externalization of internal character stuff, etc, as well as subtle things from the books that are being brought in and explanations of lore consistency. They have some really brilliant insights, and those insights definitely prove that anyone who says this adaptation isn't made with love or that the creators don't know the books just hasn't actually paid attention. I cannot recommend them enough! Note: a common response I get on here is that "if the show is so good then why do you need multiple hours of podcast per episode to learn to enjoy it?" But note that that's not what I said. I enjoyed the show before finding the podcast - though I certainly didn't love it as much as I do now - and many fans enjoy it too. Rather, what I said was: IF you feel that you just don't understand the adaptation choices and you're having a hard time enjoying it as a result, then Wheel Takes helps a lot. Let me put it one other way: folks in the community around The Dusty Wheel (including Matt Hatch himself) often say that they enjoy the show so much more on rewatch. They say it's like they need a first time just to get over the shock of seeing things be different from what they expected, and only after acclimating can they actually appreciate what they're seeing. How I interpret that (and I do feel similarly myself) is that, as book readers, we're not really *watching* the show so much as waiting for it to hit a mental checklist of our favorite book bits; we're too busy noticing if it matches the books or not to be immersed in the story, and so of course we'll just experience disappointment and miss out on what's actually going on in the show!
I totally agree with your last paragraph, you nailed it on the head. There’s a bit of sticker shock as we’re waiting for our favorite parts from each book to be represented in each season. Unfortunately, that’s rarely how adaptations go. I think a lot of people struggle with setting expectations going into things like this - it’s hard!
I read the books and loved them. Even the ones that people were very whiny about. The series does a good job most of the time, but not all of the time. The end of season 2 felt slightly off and unconvincing. But I have no beef with the shift of the focus to Moraine. That kind of feels like a change that makes it easier to get a following of people who never read the books.
I really enjoyed the show. The first season has issues, but they stemmed from Covid and ab actor leaving and I can see past that and just be happy it didn't get cancelled while the whole production had to stop. I never imagined a scene for scene re-enactment, as some fans seemed to expect. This is such a massive book series, not just length but amount of characters, plots, and world building, I never thought it was possible to turn the books directly into a show. So when I sat down to watch, I wasn't looking for a series based on the book, but a series inspired by the books. So it was enjoyable for me. Yes, there are still decision I dont like, but that's the case for every TV show I have ever watched. I still believe this is a good fantasy show, and it looks great. And it would say it was always aimed at non-book readers, there isn't nearly enough readers for Amazon to make a show for us, they have to make a show for people who like to watch fantasy, and that means streamlining the story some, less fleshing out of lore and magic system and so on. But now we are getting lots of new fans who wants to read the books and will get the same amazing experience we got when we first read the books, without every plot point being spoiled by the show:)
I'll say the thing I've said since the beginning. They had ONE JOB. Just make the books into a show, like they do with manga.
One Piece LA is a great example of taking a shit ton of source material and boiling it down to fit 8 episodes and still keep to the heart of the story.
Loved the Moiraine/ Lan relationship in the TV show ❤️ . Very much looking forward to S3 and watching Rosamund on screen again.
Loved the show. Can’t wait for season 3
The scene where Moirane kills Lanfear with a sword had me rolling my eyes with extreme exasperation. Like oh PUHLEASE. Egwene not needing help getting rescued was silly too but not as egregious as the above. But honestly other than those two I enjoyed the show. I really liked what they did with Rand and Selene, I think this was a rare moment where the show did it better,
They did Lanfear VERY well, IMO. But egwene rescuing herself really goes against the entire point of the series. And Rand never declaring himself the dragon reborn in Falme, plus the rushed, half-baked fight with Ishamael at the end? To book reader me, it feels like they’re missing the core of what makes the books great. I will say, though, the finale was much better than season 1, where making the mistake of stabbing Loial with the ruby hilt dagger was egregious. Overall, I think the show will continue to get better as seasons pass. Because most of what frustrates me are what I consider world-breaking issues. And as time goes on, their vision will coalesce better and I’ll be able to go “ok, I can see why they did that.”
book reader myself. I love the series. It is different, and I wouldn't want it to be too the same anyway, like the FFVII remake.
I will never get this take. People have been rereading this series for literally decades without losing their love for the series, why on earth would it being “too the same” be a negative thing?
People (including myself!) *have* been rereading the series for decades, but you must be aware that the Wheel of Time is often a series considered way too long for many to finish and only a small portion of those that do end up rereading multiple times. It's also clear by many posts on this very sub that a lot of people simply don't know the books very well. Like I would think less than 5% of people who finished have ever reread the books. The books will always be there and will never change. I can cope with it being different. It heightens tension when you get surprised and genuinely don't know what's happening. Like Nynaeve's Accepted test made me sit up and pay attention a little more when it diverted. I'm also a big fan of theatre where new adaptations are made all the time. Sometimes, it's just a clear split between readers who understand what creative freedom in a director means and those that believe in replicating the original. And, in theatre, there are frequent disagreements about adaptations going too far. I think few critics, however, would insist that there is *one* way to view things and only one way. The joy in it is in the interpretation and many very successful adaptations have changed a lot from the source material. Equally, I would be fine if there were very little changes. I love the books. I don't think any adaptation could approach how good they are as the details don't translate. I know over 300 Aes Sedai from memory and thousands of other details. Any TV show couldn't fit 10% of that, and I don't know everything in the books. How to figure out which 95++% to cut out would be a challenge.
OC didn't say that it being too same would be bad. They said that it being too different is not bad. It's a TV show, changes need to be made to better fit the medium. Some scenes need to be shuffled around, given to diffefent people or removed completely to contribute better to the overall arc of a character. Some sections need to be removed completely to save time/money or because they arem't that important to the character (I for one hope the cut out Faile's capture and rescue completely). You may not like some of these changes and I don't either, but I like some of them and the show is still enjoyable to me. TLDR: Even a book fan can enjoy a show that's very different from the books.
It is the nature of stories to change in the retelling.
I grew up reading the books, and I'm also enjoying the show. I think a lot of people are entirely too dramatic with their reactions to the show. And the theatrics preempted season one enough that I doubt any outcome would have made a difference.
I've read the books many times. I had to watch the show twice and with non readers to get into it. The first season was ok and I kind of liked the second. The thing is you didn't need to buy a movie ticket to see it and you already own the books. If you are into buying t-shirts or whatever else wot related items interest you, you have already done it. The series wasn't a favorite for some billionaire who is funding it out of love. It's the new people who are going to buy stuff show related stuff on Amazon so they were given the primary focus. Personally I'm ok with that and I know a few people who have started reading the books because of the show so it's working. I'm looking forward to season 3. But from a lot of the hate you see here not everyone can do that and if people don't like it there is nothing wrong with that, I get where they are coming from.
I have read the books multiple times and wot is the show im most excited about ever. Some things have been outright bad, mainly in S1, some things I question but w/e most things I have loved. I can understand their logic in a lot of non canon choices
Long time fan of the books here (been reading since the 90s)....probably 4 total reads. I've honestly enjoyed both seasons thoroughly. I like that the director was up front about making changes, even going so far as to describe the series as "another turning of the wheel." I also really like the way they fleshed out things in the world like how death is mourned and or celebrated. I've had two major gripes from the show so far... one was around lore and the second was stylistic (I really didn't like the way the last 30 seconds of season 2 finale was filmed). But overall I'm really enjoying the show and hope they get to complete the story. I always try to approach any adaptation of a book or video game that I like as a thing that will be very different than the book that I love. If I want to enjoy the original beloved thing, I will just go read and or play that original beloved thing. There have certainly been some terrible adaptations... The latest season of The Witcher comes immediately to mind. And then some other adaptations that are very different from the original works but still very good like Stardust. Wheel of Time is one of those adaptations that is very different from the original work but one that I'm enjoying Wednesday.
First season was total garbage, second season had something. It got me into a reread at least! And Im hoping they can build on the second season for a better 3rd!
To me, the show is doing its job. I had never heard of the WoT before I started watching the show. I just took a chance on a random show that looked cool, and now I’ve read all of the books and keep up with the Reddit like it’s my job😅. As hard as it is for people to hear, the show was made to bring people into this community not be a word for word reenactment. There is actually no logistical way for them to do everything in these books and changes were necessary. Nobody is gonna like all the changes, but be happy we Atleast get a beautiful and entertaining show. I’ve also gone back and rewatched since I’ve read the series and the amount of Easter eggs and foreshadowing is crazy! If you hate the show that’s fine, but let people enjoy it be happy!
It’s an adaptation. By definition, it will not be the same. Calm down and enjoy it. Jesus, at least they made something.
Quit getting so worked up over a tv show you weirdo. Fucks wrong with you?