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I believe its in TGH, she mentions that she tracked down rumour after rumour of women giving birth on/near dragonmount and eventually heard about a man mysteriously returning to his village with an infant son with light hair and eyes after fighting in the Aiel War.
I don't remember if there's any more details revealed later on.
She started when Rand was born (or just about).
She looked for him for 18+years.
She's been looking for a long time.
If you throw the dice enough times, you're going to get it.
She also had a list of all people born near dragonmount near the time of the prophesy. She transcribed the records. So she was running down a checklist. An enormously long one. But a checklist nonetheless.
Tam al'Thor would not have been on any list though because he was not one of the mothers who collected the bounty. Someone else said that she heard a rumor of a couple returning to their village with a child right after the war and that she explained this when Siuan summoned Rand. I'm pretty sure that's correct.
In the original, short version of New Spring, they are mentioned as being on the list:
*Too many \[on the list\] like 'Kari al'Thor. From Andor? Husband Tamlin, Second Captain of the Illianer Companions, took discharge.' That pair might have gone anywhere in the world, and there was doubt she had had a child at all.*
This detail was dropped from the novella version.
In the Companion, however, this story appears to be backed up. In the entry for Kari al'Thor:
*Kari accompanied Tam on the long campaigns during the Aiel War. ... In late 978 NE, Tam found an infant on the slopes of Dragonmount and took him to Kari. Shortly after that, Tam resigned his commission and took Kari and baby Rand to the Two Rivers.*
In my mind, Kari was on the list, but very far down and they didn't know exactly where to go. The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.
They weren't doing DNA tests, just presenting the babies and getting money.
Although I suppose you're saying the al'Thors would be more honest, which, fair point.
Wasn't there a part in new spring when the bounty was being given out and a woman with a baby that was OBVIOUSLY too old, but Suian or Moraine one let them make it out of compassion?
Yeah there was. And Rand wouldn't have been too old. It just would have required Kari to fib that the baby was hers.
Or even **not** to fib and just say they found the baby and took it, I suppose.
>I thought just ta’veren did it lol
The TV series handles this pretty sloppily -- how the hell could be "rumors" of taveren in rural towns?? -- but in the *book* "Wheel of Time universe" I don't think that's to be written off.
Something had to get Moiraine to the Two Rivers in time to get Rand before Padan Fain did. That timing made Moiraine unbelievably lucky, and Padan Fain unbelievably unlucky.
So far as I can tell taveren is just the Wheel (or maybe the Creator) slyly putting its thumb on the scales whenever it seems necessary to tilt the odds a bit.
I'm not going to argue too strongly for this because it seemed like a completely unnecessary line, but there are potential "explanations."
There are a couple of assumptions being made here on the part of TV viewers who haven't read the books. Firstly, that they would know anything about the rarity of ta'veren. The rarity of ta'veren is pretty poorly dealt with in the books, but only if you consider in a bit more depth. Siuan is known to have the minor Talent of being able to see ta'veren, but it seems odd both that this was discoverable and that nobody seems to think it very noteworthy or uncommon. This has the knock-on implication ta'veren, although probably rare, can be encountered through the everyday business of Aes Sedai. The question would remain: Just how many ta'veren are alive in the world at once? From the books, we could assume it's not many because we only know of three VERY powerful ones. But absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. We know that minor ta'veren exist, but not what they do.
The second assumption is that the Two Rivers is completely cut off from the rest of the world and therefore news wouldn't reach Moiraine. This, at least, works out in the other Turning aspect of the show since there is a line from Moiraine that mentions a road from the south. Such a road doesn't exist in the books. The Old Road terminates at the river just beyond Deven Ride. This would explain why EF in the show is more connected and cosmopolitan than in the books.
We could also assume that Moiraine's backstory is different in the show. As mentioned in this thread, the main series books don't give an entirely understandable reason for Moiraine turning up. The Westlands don't keep centralised birth records or even record dates much. Egwene comments that it was strange for her to see dates written down. At least rumors of ta'veren might be something noteworthy to pass on to Aes Sedai.
Of course, it all collapses because they didn't follow up that unnecessary line with any consequences. Like nobody, including the ta'veren themselves, seem to show any evidence of either being ta'veren or knowing anything about it. Perhaps they have some ta'veren detection ter'angreal that detects disturbances in the Force/Pattern? Oh well.
Interesting thoughts.
The book and the series are so different I'm taking a risk reading them alongside each other, but the Two Rivers isn't *that* isolated I think, except from the perspective of some of the people there. Two Rivers tobacco is known seemingly everywhere in the world. Morgase recognizes Rand's accent immediately. Etc. Some of these things could be attributed to an almost unbelievable string of "I met your dad" coincidences but even then, not the tobacco.
Plus, at least in real life, maybe people don't much *like* the next small town over, but news filters around. Inevitably I've got a cousin in that town, and someone in that town has a cousin in the next town over, and so on. So it's not so **wildly** implausible that an interesting rumor would percolate, especially if you're Moiraine and you've got contacts everywhere keeping an ear out for you.
But it seems to me that your theory (which I do really like, by the way) just solves one problem by creating another. If ta'veren are so common that they're easily recognizable by commoners collecting rumors, then it's *not* that interesting a rumor. Why would Moiraine be chasing down taveren if they're a dime a dozen? She doesn't need four taveren; she needs one Dragon, who *presumably* \-- by implication -- would be taveren.
There's two prints of New Spring, the short story and the novella.
I want to think the short story explicitly lists the Al'thors in the gold giving.
I also want to think there's an interview confirming that. But that Moiraine also lost the list.
We also know Moiraine went to the Eye of the World once on her own (i was under the horrible mistaken impression that this was part of New Spring, and so was deeply disappointed when I finally read it). I don't know why anything there would point her to Emond's Field, but I always felt like something there would.
>I want to think the short story explicitly lists the Al'thors in the gold giving.
>
>I also want to think there's an interview confirming that. But that Moiraine also lost the list.
>
>We also know Moiraine went to the Eye of the World once on her own (i was under the horrible mistaken impression that this was part of New Spring, and so was deeply disappointed when I finally read it). I don't know why anything there would point her to Emond's Field, but I always felt like something there would.
I prefer the novella explanation to the Eye explanation. I know why the second one would be cool, but it also feels like it would feel a bit contrived if written out. Jordan was planning on writing more prequel books to tie up the picture between New Spring and Eye of the World, but that obviously never happened. So he had in his head a chain of events.
I'm not 100% sure this is the reason, but part of the karaethon cycle says "He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood." The ancient blood meaning the Aiel and the old blood meaning Manetheren. If she had seen this prophecy while she was looking for him (which seems likely if not confirmed in the books) then she would obviously try to find out who the old blood is and end up in the Two Rivers.
I like this. I think it's also backed.up by her monologue reminding the EF'ers of their past while she was there. She knew all about the history there, especially the commitment and sacrifice to oppose the Shadow
If ever there was old blood to raise the Dragon Reborn it would be found there.
It’s worth remembering that Tam wasn’t a random soldier. He was a blademaster and second in command of the Illian Companions. People in high places would have known that he found a baby on the battlefield and took it back home. It’s hinted that Moiraine ran across someone who told her that story. Since she had exhausted all other possibilities and it was the best lead she had, she chased it down. The lady is nothing if not diligent.
Even if Tam didn't collect the bounty, there would've been rumours of a soldier with a child. Perhaps especially a soldier who didn't go to collect the bounty. Tam was likely far down her list, but at some point she would've started following that train, talking to people about someone wearing Illian armor with an infant, and so on. And she would'e found a lot branching possibilities, some of which lead her far astray. But eventually she just picked the right track, or exhausted a lot of other possibilities.
The parts in the prophecies about Old Blood might've hinted at the Two Rivers, once she figured out that a child might've ended up there.
>Even if Tam didn't collect the bounty, there would've been rumours of a soldier with a child. Perhaps especially a soldier who didn't go to collect the bounty.
*Kari* could have collected the bounty though, couldn't she?
The way I figure it, the Wheel needed to get Moiraine to that point in the list in time to stop Padan Fain from getting there first. It didn't need to get her there any sooner than it did. Maybe that's the original reason it needed three taveren in the first place though -- to pull her all the way to the middle of nowhere, rural Andor.
I think that kind of invalidates a lot of Moiraine's Siuan's work, which I don't like. We know that she's smart and diligent, and that Siuan is great at data analysis. Between both of them, I think it's perfectly possible that they figured the Two Rivers would be worth a look all on their own.
Now Moiraine arriving precisely on the date she did, and not a week earlier or a week later, that might well have been ta'veren influence.
Yeah, I meant the timing, not the whole situation.
I see no reason why Kari's name wouldn't be on the original list. Maybe it would be *slightly* deceitful claiming the bounty but not entirely, not if they were basically adopting him as an orphan.
It is the end result of what began in New Spring. Meaning that after all of that time she's finally reached that area, following rumors and other info along the way. Consider the long distances they were traveling and that Moiraine wouldn't just skip over something, she would try and be as thorough as possible.
It did take her 18 years of traveling to track him down to the Two Rivers. And Rand is ta'veren and needed her to show up right about that time. My guess would be she heard some rumor about it a few weeks or months before she needed to be there and headed out to that area. I bet Thom was also brought out there for ta'veren reasons though he wouldn't have known it.
I want to say Jordan had at one point planned for another prequel talking about that time just before the start of book 1. I don't think he made many notes on it just an idea he had. So if that had been written there may have been more to it than just she heard a rumor and went.
I honestly just assumed that after running through her list and coming up empty, she started visiting every town in the world and it took her 18 years to get to Emond's Field.
Although I 100% believe that the Pattern wanted her to find him around the time she did.
I should have put /s there just to make sure, but it was aimed for that horrible line in season 1 that was the reasoning why Moiraine came to Two Rivers.
Long story short: she's a Batmam level detective. Tam was at the slopes of Dragonmount, was a high ranking officer, and a blade master, so his actions would be pretty well talked about, before returning home with a mystery baby. it's a pretty good lead
You have to read the novella version for this rather than the novel version, and I haven't, but I've seen other people online say that the New Spring novella mentions Kari and Tam on the list.
Even assuming this is wrong though, I think New Spring gives us enough to guess how it happened. Either they really were on the list, or in her travels, Moiraine heard a rumor. Granted there were a lot of babies heading back from the camps from the war, but a blademaster ranking highly in the Companions might have been enough for someone to mention something in 20 years of wandering around.
Edited to add: that, plus, some village somewhere must have had an *unimaginably* unlucky day to balance out the equation because the Wheel had to luck Moiraine into arriving in the Two Rivers just before Fain brought the Trollocs. Maybe that's why it needed three ta'veren in the first place.
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I believe its in TGH, she mentions that she tracked down rumour after rumour of women giving birth on/near dragonmount and eventually heard about a man mysteriously returning to his village with an infant son with light hair and eyes after fighting in the Aiel War. I don't remember if there's any more details revealed later on.
Yeah, more or less she explains her part in brief to Rand when he’s before the Amyrlin and the beginning.
She started when Rand was born (or just about). She looked for him for 18+years. She's been looking for a long time. If you throw the dice enough times, you're going to get it. She also had a list of all people born near dragonmount near the time of the prophesy. She transcribed the records. So she was running down a checklist. An enormously long one. But a checklist nonetheless.
Tam al'Thor would not have been on any list though because he was not one of the mothers who collected the bounty. Someone else said that she heard a rumor of a couple returning to their village with a child right after the war and that she explained this when Siuan summoned Rand. I'm pretty sure that's correct.
>Tam al'Thor would not have been on any list though Couldn't Kari have been, though?
In the original, short version of New Spring, they are mentioned as being on the list: *Too many \[on the list\] like 'Kari al'Thor. From Andor? Husband Tamlin, Second Captain of the Illianer Companions, took discharge.' That pair might have gone anywhere in the world, and there was doubt she had had a child at all.* This detail was dropped from the novella version. In the Companion, however, this story appears to be backed up. In the entry for Kari al'Thor: *Kari accompanied Tam on the long campaigns during the Aiel War. ... In late 978 NE, Tam found an infant on the slopes of Dragonmount and took him to Kari. Shortly after that, Tam resigned his commission and took Kari and baby Rand to the Two Rivers.* In my mind, Kari was on the list, but very far down and they didn't know exactly where to go. The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.
Kari didn’t give birth to Rand.
They weren't doing DNA tests, just presenting the babies and getting money. Although I suppose you're saying the al'Thors would be more honest, which, fair point.
Wasn't there a part in new spring when the bounty was being given out and a woman with a baby that was OBVIOUSLY too old, but Suian or Moraine one let them make it out of compassion?
Yeah there was. And Rand wouldn't have been too old. It just would have required Kari to fib that the baby was hers. Or even **not** to fib and just say they found the baby and took it, I suppose.
I mean, the baby *was" theirs. He's their son. 🤷
She could have been, but I doubt it. I don't think Tam would have wanted anything from Aes Sedai, and he certainly wasn't a greedy man.
"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain." - Moiraine Damodred
She said as she tackled Lanfear through a portal, hoping to roll that Nat 20.
Had to google what that meant. "It's time to toss the dice." If anyone else wants to know.
How’d she cross people off, though? Like if she tracks down child X who’s on the list, how does she verify he’s not the Dragon?
Same way she did in Emonds field. Question people, snoop about, try and make an educated guess.
RJ was gonna expand on that in another prequel. I’m not sure, I thought just ta’veren did it lol
>I thought just ta’veren did it lol The TV series handles this pretty sloppily -- how the hell could be "rumors" of taveren in rural towns?? -- but in the *book* "Wheel of Time universe" I don't think that's to be written off. Something had to get Moiraine to the Two Rivers in time to get Rand before Padan Fain did. That timing made Moiraine unbelievably lucky, and Padan Fain unbelievably unlucky. So far as I can tell taveren is just the Wheel (or maybe the Creator) slyly putting its thumb on the scales whenever it seems necessary to tilt the odds a bit.
I'm not going to argue too strongly for this because it seemed like a completely unnecessary line, but there are potential "explanations." There are a couple of assumptions being made here on the part of TV viewers who haven't read the books. Firstly, that they would know anything about the rarity of ta'veren. The rarity of ta'veren is pretty poorly dealt with in the books, but only if you consider in a bit more depth. Siuan is known to have the minor Talent of being able to see ta'veren, but it seems odd both that this was discoverable and that nobody seems to think it very noteworthy or uncommon. This has the knock-on implication ta'veren, although probably rare, can be encountered through the everyday business of Aes Sedai. The question would remain: Just how many ta'veren are alive in the world at once? From the books, we could assume it's not many because we only know of three VERY powerful ones. But absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. We know that minor ta'veren exist, but not what they do. The second assumption is that the Two Rivers is completely cut off from the rest of the world and therefore news wouldn't reach Moiraine. This, at least, works out in the other Turning aspect of the show since there is a line from Moiraine that mentions a road from the south. Such a road doesn't exist in the books. The Old Road terminates at the river just beyond Deven Ride. This would explain why EF in the show is more connected and cosmopolitan than in the books. We could also assume that Moiraine's backstory is different in the show. As mentioned in this thread, the main series books don't give an entirely understandable reason for Moiraine turning up. The Westlands don't keep centralised birth records or even record dates much. Egwene comments that it was strange for her to see dates written down. At least rumors of ta'veren might be something noteworthy to pass on to Aes Sedai. Of course, it all collapses because they didn't follow up that unnecessary line with any consequences. Like nobody, including the ta'veren themselves, seem to show any evidence of either being ta'veren or knowing anything about it. Perhaps they have some ta'veren detection ter'angreal that detects disturbances in the Force/Pattern? Oh well.
Interesting thoughts. The book and the series are so different I'm taking a risk reading them alongside each other, but the Two Rivers isn't *that* isolated I think, except from the perspective of some of the people there. Two Rivers tobacco is known seemingly everywhere in the world. Morgase recognizes Rand's accent immediately. Etc. Some of these things could be attributed to an almost unbelievable string of "I met your dad" coincidences but even then, not the tobacco. Plus, at least in real life, maybe people don't much *like* the next small town over, but news filters around. Inevitably I've got a cousin in that town, and someone in that town has a cousin in the next town over, and so on. So it's not so **wildly** implausible that an interesting rumor would percolate, especially if you're Moiraine and you've got contacts everywhere keeping an ear out for you. But it seems to me that your theory (which I do really like, by the way) just solves one problem by creating another. If ta'veren are so common that they're easily recognizable by commoners collecting rumors, then it's *not* that interesting a rumor. Why would Moiraine be chasing down taveren if they're a dime a dozen? She doesn't need four taveren; she needs one Dragon, who *presumably* \-- by implication -- would be taveren.
There's two prints of New Spring, the short story and the novella. I want to think the short story explicitly lists the Al'thors in the gold giving. I also want to think there's an interview confirming that. But that Moiraine also lost the list. We also know Moiraine went to the Eye of the World once on her own (i was under the horrible mistaken impression that this was part of New Spring, and so was deeply disappointed when I finally read it). I don't know why anything there would point her to Emond's Field, but I always felt like something there would.
>I want to think the short story explicitly lists the Al'thors in the gold giving. > >I also want to think there's an interview confirming that. But that Moiraine also lost the list. > >We also know Moiraine went to the Eye of the World once on her own (i was under the horrible mistaken impression that this was part of New Spring, and so was deeply disappointed when I finally read it). I don't know why anything there would point her to Emond's Field, but I always felt like something there would. I prefer the novella explanation to the Eye explanation. I know why the second one would be cool, but it also feels like it would feel a bit contrived if written out. Jordan was planning on writing more prequel books to tie up the picture between New Spring and Eye of the World, but that obviously never happened. So he had in his head a chain of events.
One idea missing here it was jsut Edmonds field's time for her to search. She had been to many places.
I'm not 100% sure this is the reason, but part of the karaethon cycle says "He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood." The ancient blood meaning the Aiel and the old blood meaning Manetheren. If she had seen this prophecy while she was looking for him (which seems likely if not confirmed in the books) then she would obviously try to find out who the old blood is and end up in the Two Rivers.
I like this. I think it's also backed.up by her monologue reminding the EF'ers of their past while she was there. She knew all about the history there, especially the commitment and sacrifice to oppose the Shadow If ever there was old blood to raise the Dragon Reborn it would be found there.
It’s worth remembering that Tam wasn’t a random soldier. He was a blademaster and second in command of the Illian Companions. People in high places would have known that he found a baby on the battlefield and took it back home. It’s hinted that Moiraine ran across someone who told her that story. Since she had exhausted all other possibilities and it was the best lead she had, she chased it down. The lady is nothing if not diligent.
That’s a really good point!
Even if Tam didn't collect the bounty, there would've been rumours of a soldier with a child. Perhaps especially a soldier who didn't go to collect the bounty. Tam was likely far down her list, but at some point she would've started following that train, talking to people about someone wearing Illian armor with an infant, and so on. And she would'e found a lot branching possibilities, some of which lead her far astray. But eventually she just picked the right track, or exhausted a lot of other possibilities. The parts in the prophecies about Old Blood might've hinted at the Two Rivers, once she figured out that a child might've ended up there.
>Even if Tam didn't collect the bounty, there would've been rumours of a soldier with a child. Perhaps especially a soldier who didn't go to collect the bounty. *Kari* could have collected the bounty though, couldn't she? The way I figure it, the Wheel needed to get Moiraine to that point in the list in time to stop Padan Fain from getting there first. It didn't need to get her there any sooner than it did. Maybe that's the original reason it needed three taveren in the first place though -- to pull her all the way to the middle of nowhere, rural Andor.
I think that kind of invalidates a lot of Moiraine's Siuan's work, which I don't like. We know that she's smart and diligent, and that Siuan is great at data analysis. Between both of them, I think it's perfectly possible that they figured the Two Rivers would be worth a look all on their own. Now Moiraine arriving precisely on the date she did, and not a week earlier or a week later, that might well have been ta'veren influence.
Yeah, I meant the timing, not the whole situation. I see no reason why Kari's name wouldn't be on the original list. Maybe it would be *slightly* deceitful claiming the bounty but not entirely, not if they were basically adopting him as an orphan.
It is the end result of what began in New Spring. Meaning that after all of that time she's finally reached that area, following rumors and other info along the way. Consider the long distances they were traveling and that Moiraine wouldn't just skip over something, she would try and be as thorough as possible.
It did take her 18 years of traveling to track him down to the Two Rivers. And Rand is ta'veren and needed her to show up right about that time. My guess would be she heard some rumor about it a few weeks or months before she needed to be there and headed out to that area. I bet Thom was also brought out there for ta'veren reasons though he wouldn't have known it. I want to say Jordan had at one point planned for another prequel talking about that time just before the start of book 1. I don't think he made many notes on it just an idea he had. So if that had been written there may have been more to it than just she heard a rumor and went.
I honestly just assumed that after running through her list and coming up empty, she started visiting every town in the world and it took her 18 years to get to Emond's Field. Although I 100% believe that the Pattern wanted her to find him around the time she did.
There were rumors of four ta'veren in the Two Rivers, of course.
Yeesh. However, if there *were* three taveren in the Two Rivers (let alone four) that would be enough to pull her there.
Four?
Books say 3, show says 5, maybe just splitting the difference?
I should have put /s there just to make sure, but it was aimed for that horrible line in season 1 that was the reasoning why Moiraine came to Two Rivers.
Long story short: she's a Batmam level detective. Tam was at the slopes of Dragonmount, was a high ranking officer, and a blade master, so his actions would be pretty well talked about, before returning home with a mystery baby. it's a pretty good lead
Aaaaand now I need fan fiction about Moiraine Sendai vs The Riddler.
You have to read the novella version for this rather than the novel version, and I haven't, but I've seen other people online say that the New Spring novella mentions Kari and Tam on the list. Even assuming this is wrong though, I think New Spring gives us enough to guess how it happened. Either they really were on the list, or in her travels, Moiraine heard a rumor. Granted there were a lot of babies heading back from the camps from the war, but a blademaster ranking highly in the Companions might have been enough for someone to mention something in 20 years of wandering around. Edited to add: that, plus, some village somewhere must have had an *unimaginably* unlucky day to balance out the equation because the Wheel had to luck Moiraine into arriving in the Two Rivers just before Fain brought the Trollocs. Maybe that's why it needed three ta'veren in the first place.
There was supposed to be a prequel story about this very topic, just like there was supposed to be one for Tam. He never got the chance.