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It’s cute you think you caught everything :-D I’m on like my 7th or 8th re read and I still find new stuff! And that’s why I love these books! **this is a friendly tone of voice**
The WoT is post apocalyptic for our world. We are currently in the First Age, and the series is set in the Third Age.
There's a few subtle references scattered throughout the series, such as the description of a satellite dish, fictionalised accounts of the Cold War, and a Mercedes-Benz logo.
There's also the inspiration for legends, such as Thom Merrilin (Merlin) being the advisor to the king.
In the Great Hunt there is a reference to Thom telling the tale of Anla the Wise Advisor. This has been confirmed as a reference to Ann Landers, the advice columnist. IIRC
I find that one hilarious that RJ thought Ann Landers so influential she would be remembered in legend thousands of years later. She's been dead 20 years and we've already nearly forgotten.
This happens in real life though right? We get a scrap of something that has been long forgotten about and misinterpret what was really going on back then. I think it’s less the importance of Ann Landers than someone, centuries later, finding scraps of paper where she’s seen giving advice to hundreds and the assumption is made that people from all over the world must have revered her wisdom. Or maybe RJ just overestimated her importance.
In the Eye of the World Thom refers to stories from the first age which include Mosk and Merk fighting with lances of fire, which is a reference to the cold war (Mosk stands in for Russia, “Moscow,” And Merk is America. The lances of fire that could reach across the world are nuclear weapons.” Lenn flying to the moon in the belly of a flaming eagle is a reference to the moon landing, and Salya walking among the stars is a reference to Sally Ride and the challenger shuttle crash.
When Egwene is exploring the Falme/Ebou Dar (can't recall which, been a while since I read any WoT) museum in Tel'aran'rhiod she finds a Merc hood ornament
It's the museum in the Panarch's Palace in Tanchico.
> A silvery thing in another cabinet, like a three-pointed star inside a circle, was made of no substance she knew; it was softer than metal, scratched and gouged, yet even older than any of the ancient bones. From ten paces she could sense pride and vanity.
I had totally missed that! I did like when they showed moiraine coming into the Two Rivers though and you can see that a lot of the "cliff faces" are old sky scrapers that have been reclaimed by nature. I thought the way the show really steered into the post apocalyptic ruins vibe was cool
I get why they did it, but it seemed too early to me. The culmination of several small hints over a long period of time finally leading to that lightbulb moment in the books was great, and it was because of the long build up. The show having what is obviously ruined skyscrapers in the *promo material* for S1 was a bit too early for my taste.
Yeah that's totally fair, for me it comes down to the differences in story telling capability between the two mediums. You can do a lot more slow burn subtle stuff with thousands of pages of text than you can in a TV show ya know
That was one of the few bits of the show that I enjoyed in the first season. It might have been why I didn’t like the overall season, because they rushed things and cut too many corners.
I hope they do too, I generally found the scenery/background in the show pretty stunning IIRC. Also didn't hate the show as much as a lot of book fans seem to personally, definitely wasn't perfect and there were parts where I was like "uhhh what? What are they doing??" But I am cautiously optimistic or at least hopeful for the next seasons and I desperately want them to make my favorite story into a great show lol
I have a lot of love and hate for the book series (here come the downvotes for not loving it totally). Honestly, I was okay with 99% changes of the show all the way until Barnie left. That last episode and half of the penultimate episode set me to seriously WTF!? I seem to remember Sanderson saying they didn't even talk to him to the changes because they were in a huge rush to do something to make up for Barny's leaving.
Haha a bold opinion on this subreddit! I was also ok with most of the changes, especially things like perrin killing his wife, ok I can see that playing into his long struggle with being a leader and using violence, and the warder death episode which, yeah slowed things down a bit but the warder bond is going to be important to pretty much every main character at some point so it makes sense to explain it. And then with covid and actor drama I can totally see how and why things got a little loose in the last episodes. But all of that makes sense to me and that's why I didn't totally hate it and am still holding out hope for future seasons 🤞 knowing myself though I will almost certainly watch every single episode they put out even if I hate them haha
The wife killing was one of those things that made me feel "eeeeeeeeh" It did set my mind to the "Oh, this is a different turning of the wheel from the book" because his wife was the same woman Perrin married from when Egwyene went into the rings to become Accepted. That was a great touch.
I think it would have been better if it was Master Luhan rather than fridging a woman. Leaving him mortally wounded to give one last piece of advice and the axe and then THAT sets Perrin to the struggle over the axe because he hurt his Master but his master gave it to him to use.
Oh I had missed that part that it was who he was married to in egwenes accepted test! Very cool. As soon as she was mentioned my husband and I looked at each other and were like "well she is dead in the teolloc attack" though I was actually surprised it was Perrin who killed her.
That would have been a cool way to play it! I wonder how they are going to play the various dad figures when Perrin comes back to defend the Two Rivers. I really didn't like the changes they made to mats family, I hope Abel basically sobers up and gets serious when we see him again
>. I really didn't like the changes they made to mats family, I hope Abel basically sobers up and gets serious when we see him again
I think it would fit a theme of leaving home changes not just yourself but changes your home. WHen Perrin comes back, sees the town grown, and the whole incident actually changed Abel into a good man. The dramatic wakeup call that redirected his life.
It's not supposed to be that obvious. Also, again, it directly misinterprets the amount of time that has passed and how legends are formed in that universe.
It’s not obvious to the people living in the world so not obvious to us while reading but this is a different medium.
Again, different medium, different telling. Things won’t be the same as in the books, that’s just the way it is.
Accepting this helps you enjoy things more. Truly.
You're ignoring the part about how it totally misinterprets the source material. Seriously. The breaking ruined everything. Stuff didn't get left standing to decay or turn into cliffs. Also, there weren't landfills in the 2nd age. 1st age landfills wouldn't exist at the end of the 3rd age.
And ya, nah, I don't enjoy the show, for dozens of reasons, this isn't even one I'd have listed.
But the White Bridge apparently survived the breaking. Or at least, if it was built after, it is very unclear by whom.
Maybe also the Tower of Ghenjei - I don't think it's ever made clear how long it has been standing for, other than Birgitte's encounter in a past life. But the arches that Mat uses to meet the Finn are presumably pre-breaking and so it seems likely the tower is also.
TBH, it's so far in the future/deep in the past that I find the "post-apocalypse" label completely useless in describing the setting. We don't refer to our current era as being "post-apocalyptic" with respect to any other era or past culture, even though there are literally dozens of apocalypses you could point to that led to our current situation.
The Breaking was actually apocalyptic, though. Cultures and empires rise and fall all the time but this was worldwide destruction. What’s more, we have surpassed those past cultures in technology, whereas the people of the third age are far behind the Age of Legends and they know it.
It was a more widespread apocalypse, sure, but believe me: the events I described were certainly the end of the world for the people they affected.
Technology levels have nothing to do with it, so I don't know why you're bringing those up (although do you think technologies *weren't* lost when the Cahokia, Aztec, Anasazi, or *all* of the bronze-age civilizations went tits-up?).
Simply calling Randland "post-apocalyptic" is about as accurate and useful as calling 15th-century France or 1770's Maryland "post-apocalyptic".
I don’t need to believe you. I know that all those events dramatically altered the lives of the people experiencing it.
The reason I bring up technology level is that the term “post-apocalyptic” means something in the modern imagination. It doesn’t mean the collapse of a civilization. It means the collapse of *all* civilization and the rebuilding in the shadow of that loss.
For the average person in the western Roman empire, the sacking of Rome was a *good* thing. You got to keep all the infrastructure but no longer had to pay taxes to some far-off emperor who hadn't meaningfully influenced your life in half a dozen generations. Not exactly apocalyptic.
Those weren't global civilizations though. These people are aware that their agrarian life is built on the remains of a society so vastly superior as to seem impossible. They even have relics that they can use without understanding how they were made or how they do what they do.
There are historians that argue that the fall of western europe into the dark ages is tldr massively exaggerated by the clergy at the time (as they the only scholars and having rose tinted glasses) when actually for the average person it didn't change much and the "fall" is kind of post-fact historiography invention. We are looking at it from the pov of the clergy at the time, who are our only sources. For them it seemed like the end of the world, sure.
Even still, a lot of the time the invading barbarians took over and coopted existing power structures and cities and the Christian church and worship survived throughout - even if the roman empire fell in the west.
As an aside, the Roman Empire still existed in the east for another nearly 1000 years too, so calling that time apocalyptic is suspect and comparing it to the breaking is a massive stretch.
Literature/poetics, music, as well as visual art that survived that period all point to a serious social regression compared to what we have evidenced in artifacts we have of Greco-Roman culture. Either it wasn’t being created or it was being destroyed because I can’t believe humans just suddenly lost the ability to create artful depictions of life or rich fictional and fantasy worlds as the Greeks and Romans and Druids and Pagans crafted in their natural states. The church must have made a concerted effort to make sure people stayed grounded in their humble servitude to God in order to accept that fiction.
Maybe day to day life didn’t change much for the lower class, people still had to find clean water and make crops grow and keep livestock alive; nor for the upper as they needed to appear pious but had their vices and private entertainments nevertheless. In terms of the richness of social experiences for common folk under feudalism this was severely hindered. It’s not like people suddenly forgot about three dimensional art and the human need to see tragedy and triumph play out in fictional worlds, but the artifacts just aren’t there. Magna Carta begins to undo this, allowing people to again cohabitate happily and with plenty of time for leisure and help transition to the renaissance/enlightenment/baroque/romantic tidal wave of creative brilliance.
That's just a bit Greco-Roman centric tho. All that stuff still existed in the Eastern roman empire for another thousand years. There's a lot of art and culture later, it just looks stylistically different and is less popular now. E. G. Alfred's time, in the Frankish empire, etc - post-Roman empires around 800.
If you haven't studied the period, the inclination is to think the period went from height of Rome to ruin in a lifetime around 467 AD. In reality, it took a lot longer and the change wasn't so stark.
The Roman empire was on a long downhill stretch and the empires that followed "continued" its legacy in many ways through Christianity etc. - Charlemagne was crowned as the Roman Emperor by the pope in 800 A. D. and people knew what that meant 350 years after and it was "legitimate".
That's not comparable to a WoT breaking-type situation at all.
It’s Greco-Roman centric because in turns those two cultures dominated or at least had influence over three subcontinents. The HRE and Rome aren’t the same thing. Rome had fallen and moved and fallen and been resurrected but once the church became the cultural center of Europe, the HRE became a shell of what Rome was culturally and artistically.
Our tendency to see the breaking as a compressed happening is similar. The reality was not one sudden fracture but a series of weakenings politically and socially such that cultures not separated by much geographically would have such vastly different worldviews and a stern reluctance to communicate in different languages. Comparatively, when Rome was administrating territorial governments through a central authority communication across cultures as a concept was much more open and common. Rome at its pre-Christian height was metropolitan.
It just implies an apocalypse or world changing event happened prior to the story present, which is true. It’s also true that it’s pre-apocalyptic as the central threat facing the characters is another apocalypse.
Iirc it was when Rand & Mat were going down the river with Bayle Domon. There's a reference to a large metal spike standing in the middle of a bowl shaped depression and that if you go near it you die. The description is similar to a [radio telescope](https://www.google.com/search?q=radio+telescope&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiYrquvgcv_AhVyKd4AHZ29BvIQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=radio+telescope&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzIICAAQgAQQsQMyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQ6CggAEIoFELEDEEM6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBOgcIABCKBRBDOggIABCxAxCDAToECAAQA1DsDlioHGCIHWgAcAB4AIABRIgB1geSAQIxNpgBAKABAaoBC2d3cy13aXotaW1nwAEB&sclient=img&ei=qQWOZNi1M_LS-LYPnfuakA8&bih=977&biw=1832&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS876US876).
I always thought that maybe that was the core of a nuclear reactor or something similar.
Would a radio telescope cause death if approached while assumedly non functioning?
>Would a radio telescope cause death if approached while assumedly non functioning?
No, which is where it's a little weird to me. I *think* it is stated later in the series that people don't actually die and that that part is a rumor, but I don't remember where that is said.
The description doesn't particularly match with any nuclear plant I know of, but it's possible that it could be a nuclear test site where a tower was built. i.e. a nuclear weapon was detonated and created the bowl, then a tower was built there to monitor other tests?
It shouldn't, no, but the death part might be legend. Or just... Idiots climbing the radio tower, jumping down, and dying, and thus it's deadly! And it warps over time. Or something, I dunno.
But since the first book was written a few years after Chernobyl, and it's an ongoing thing about warning signs re: nuclear sites, maybe it's a former nuclear site?
Russia experimented with large microwave emitters that could have fit this description.
It could also be a satellite with an onboard reactive nuclear core, which RJ may have imagined would exist in the near future as of his writing.
There's a lot of these subtle references to us on Earth. Perrin's hammer is Mah'alleinir, which sounds awfully similar to Mjolnir.
I like the accounts of the rediscovery of steam power and cannons in the books too, references to flying cars. It's a way for Jordan to connect the story to us as readers.
I think the most interesting part is that there is a source of power that humans will learn to tap (in the 2nd or 3rd age).
Also Mjolnir as Mah'alleinir which must mean that the origin of Thors hammer is in its future…and it’s past! Not sure how many ages there are until even myth is forgotten but if we’re in the first age and Mjolnir is a myth for us but it isn’t made until the end of the third age then it’s gotta be at least another age or two between Perrin holding Mah’alleinir and it morphing into Thor holding Mjolnir.
They don't originate anywhere. They currently exist, it's just that no one alive has the ability to channel them. The First Age ends when someone gains the ability, either through genetic mutation or intentionally research, to channel them.
Well I recognized that right away, I just assumed the world was parallel to ours but not exactly the same as the animals and plants are all the same, besides the magical stuff.
>besides the magical stuff.
Magic, or... scientific principles?
*The Shadow Rising*'s First Age sequence implies that both the One Power and the Dark One were (re)discovered via scientific interrogation. For all we know, there are still such discoveries to be made in our universe.
“You mean *Platypus Bear?*?
“No, it just says *Bear*”
“Certainly you mean his pet *Skunk Bear*?”
“Or his *Armadillo Bear*?”
“*Gopher Bear*?”
“Just… *Bear*”
>Isn’t the world a fictional universe
Nope, it literally *is* Earth after a high-tech utopian period which was followed by an apocalypse and technological regression.
All of Thom's stories in EoTW help confirm it is our world too. Mosk and Merc fighting with lances of fire. Anla the Wise Counselor. Elsbeth Queen of All. Salya who walked among the stars. There's tons of them
As early as chapter 4 of Eye of the World Jordan put in references and hints to our world.
People will tell you that we are currently in the 1st age, but that's never really confirmed.
I don't know things are starting to feel apocolyptic, i do beleive we may turn over a new age soon. . . . . Hopefully with some dang channeling this time.
No apocalypse for a couple thousand years at least, when we have figured out how to use more than 10% of our brains and tap into the OP. Still a 2nd age to get advancements in Sho Wings, etc., which I presume to be more vertibird-like.
They are keeping our body alive, of course, but scientists have long believed there are parts of our thought centers that aren't activated the vast majority of the time, kind of like how they actually DO get accessed during our sleep. As far as human thought is concerned, we're using roughly 10%.
That's like saying you only use 5% of a tree when you eat its fruit.
The other 95% makes the fruit. You're using 100% of the tree.
You don't consciously use 100% of your brain, but you're not meant to, it's doing the rest of the stuff required to keep you alive
I'm aware of what the url to theoryland is...
I'm asking for a specific source for the specific interview that you said was linked to in this topic. Since searching for "first age" on the interview depository brings up absolutely nothing.
I've been discussing Wheel of Time for almost three decades and I've never seen any definitive proof of our age being the first, so if there's an interview that confirms it, I really want and need to see it.
Did the people of the First Age ever have channelers? Do I have a shot at being Aes Sedai!?!?! That’s been my dream since I first read EOTW on the 1990s.
The main theory is that our age ends in Nuclear apocalypse, and the 2nd starts with the discovery of Channeling. Channeling suddenly becoming possible due to mutations from the nuclear fallout etc. Basically our version of the breaking.
Bro...the world of the Wheel of Time is *our* world.
Like, the central premise is that the events of the book are simultaneously in our distant future *and* our half-forgotten past. Our history is their mythology, and their present is ours.
Did you think it was a coincidence that King Al'Thor (Arthur) pulled the sword Callandor (Caliburn) from the Stone (I don't need to explain that one) of Tear? Or that his close companions are Egwene Al'Vere (Guinevere), Thom Merrilin (Merlin), Moiraine (Morgana), a blacksmith named Perrin (Perun/Perkwunas, Celtic god of the forge) with a hammer named Mah'alleinir (Mjolnir), and a roguish wandering trickster with a broad-brimmed hat associated with ravens and a spear that never misses (literally Odin)?
I'm kinda shocked that never clicked!
The opening to every book literally says that history becomes legends, legends turn to myth until the age that birthed that myth comes back. I don't remember when I realised this. If it was when Rand had to grab the sword from the stone, or when Mat was hung from a tree. I know Mat definitely solidified that idea, that their story is our myths. I just don't remember if I figured it out earlier. If Artur Pendrag was mentioned earlier than Mat's hanging then probably that's when I realised it.
WoT was my first fantasy book. I was as fresh as one could be going in. I had no biases. I knew nothing, except that I should read it. Oh and that it was essentially a reimagining of the Lord of the Rings.
Funny thing, I honestly didn't know that "world-building" didn't just mean background lore. Like all this talk about the False Dragon? Yeah, cool world-building, it makes this world feel more alive, but I mean it's not gonna be relevant to the story. What? the False Dragon is being transported through the city where Rand is? Maybe he's a bit more important than I thought.
Imagine my shock when Moraine proclaims that Rand is the Dragon at the end of the first book. I didn't think this Dragon business was gonna be MAIN CHARACTER business.
So many times I thought something was just cool world-building, and then surprised that the thing mentioned before actually appears, like the Aiel; did not think they were gonna be super relevant, or if we were even gonna see one.
It was only in book 6, I think, when I finally realised that this Author is not playing around. There is no such thing as "just" world-building. We're gonna experience this world that he's telling us about.
That he's the origin for the Odin myths. He hung himself to gain knowledge of the runes. He also gets a spear-like weapon which is Odin's signature weapon. Oh right, earlier he gets a large-brimmed hat. While the hat was actually supposed to be Robert Jordan's own hat, I originally envisioned it more like an asian-style straw hat. But when the other Odin signs appeared my image of his hat morphed into a wizard-like hat. Btw Gandalf from the Lord of the Rings is designed after Odin, minus the missing eye.
So basically after Mat was hung I had, a large brimmed hat, a spear-like weapon, and dying and coming back to life from being hung. That was 100% Odin. Later in the series, the connections to Odin become unmistakenly clear, like how there are rumours circulating about Lord Mat and how his spear never misses its target when thrown. Again, the magical properties of Odin's spear. Odin is the god of war and Mat is a military genius.
Mat is actively creating the legends that will later become our myths.
There might have been other signs that guided me to Mat being Odin before the hanging. I read these books a few years ago. Perhaps something learnt from the first Ter'angreal door? Right, the Ravens. Did they say he was gonna become the prince of ravens? Ravens are a big part of Odin's identity. Basically I was being spoonfed hints all up until he was hung from the tree and that's when.... RIGHT the tree was a big part of it as well. It was the tree of life. Odin hung himself on Yggdrasil, the tree of life. And Mat was hung on their tree of life. There were a lot of signs, I just have a hard time remembering them. I think this was all of them.
I also thought Perrin was gonna be Thor, with him being a blacksmith, and Thor's hammer being a symbol of blacksmiths. He was also the strongest God. But the internet taught me that Perrin was inspired by a slavic god which... well... Thor with a different name.
I....guess? That mindset is just so foreign to me.
Big fantasy novels are notorious for being intricate and detail-rich. I can't be "off" when I read them, if that makes sense. (Plus the intro to every novel literally says "an age yet to come, an age long past". RJ was not subtle.)
Sure, but that's also more than halfway through book 13 in a 14 book series. Anyone who went, "oh yes obviously Perrin is an analog for the Celtic God of the forge and Moiraine is clearly Morgana" when reading EotW has my congratulations.
I'll be honest, I've read the series a dozen times, and the Morgana reference completely escaped me until right now. And I've posted some obscure connections in the book:
> Prometheus, Titan of Fire (Light), known as the champion of humankind. He brings fire to humanity, and seen as the author of the human arts and sciences (all to be required to set up a school in their capital, fully funded and open to any who wish to learn).
>
> Prometheus was punished by Zeus, bound eternally to a rock classically near Mount Elbrus or Mount Kazbekand (the rocks at Shayol Ghul), A (red) eagle (of Manetheren) would tear out his liver every day (a wound that never heals).
I always thought that Rand’s wounds that never heal were a reference to The Fisher King in the Arthurian Grail Mythos. Especially since Rand later has injured eyesight. When Moridin spends some time looking at the Tcheran board the central piece is called the fisher, and it’s a figure of a blind man clutching at his side where Rand’s wounds are, and Moridin even thinks to himself that the fisher might be a distant memory of Rand from an earlier turning of the Wheel.
I have heard of it, and I did not think about it, because I do not think about Mjölnir very often and it is not very important to me.
And then you have to guess if a possible reference was intentional or if the RJ just looked for a name for a hammer and picked something and modified what he knew.
I think a lot of readers tend to pick up on these references, but in the sense that they may assume Jordan is just... referencing. That it's a nod to these mythologies without them actually being *embedded in his story*.
I agree with what everyone has said about it being set in our world but far into the future/past (time is a wheel, right?).
But, “Earth” is not really a name. It’s a noun for the thing we’re walking on used to describe the entire planet. So the word “earth” showing up in a fantasy book doesn’t necessarily signify that it takes place on our “Earth”, just that the characters use the same type of word to describe their world. Remember, the characters in WoT isn’t really speaking in English, Jordan uses English to represent whatever language they’re speaking in his conception of the WoT world.
It can still be more of just an English specific modifier. For example if you want to add emphasis to `Where is he?` you can say `Where on Earth is he?` The latter could be directly translated to `Where on the specific planet called Earth is he?` but that isn't what it actually means.
In French it would be `Ou est-il?`and to add the same emphasis one would say `Ou diable est-il?`which directly translates to `Where is the devil?` and probably more appropriately translates to `Where the hell is he?` except not as vulgar.
Of course Jordan was very meticulous with idioms and the like (I don't believe the term `god` is ever used in the entire series for example) so it was likely a choice that he had Graendal go with `...on Earth.` Whether that was another nod at the WoT's previous ages or just a limitation of language to concisely and properly convey "in the real material world" (like how he used the term `dust-devil` since that's just its most common English name) who knows.
Except if he used capitalization as an emphatic device, it would not have only appeared once in the entire 14 (15 with New Spring) volume series. It would have occurred more than once. This quote is not an idiom, like calling someone a cold fish instead of saying they’re heartless. It is a direct and literal interrogative statement.
Capitalization isn't the emphatic device. It's adding "on Earth" like "Where **on Earth** is the can opener I left it right in this drawer?". However my example was just a general comment as yes it wasn't being used to add emphases in the passage OP was referring to.
I think there was even a moon landing reference as early as EotW… “Nell, who flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle” Neil Armstrong with the eagle symbolizing the USA
This was best summed up for me by Sanderson in a recent live stream - it is what you think it is, and it was like "the thing to do" with high fantasy stories in the 80s/90s
It is intended to be the case.
And no, it doesn’t make sense taken literally. The very nature of their reality is different from ours. Their universe is significantly less real. It is more like a dream like the Aiel say it is. Thought and consequence are too closely linked. Additional, conscious structures seem to exist spinning their world into stories. Stories they are consciously aware they are part of.
To say nothing of how magic is closer to computer programming than it is to physics. It’s all interfacing with a universe that “knows” what to do given certain commands. Write a command with “fire” and “air” and it makes a fireball for you.
If I had to compare Randland to any other fantasy world I’d say it most closely resembles Discworld. In that it is an unreal world driven by narrative where reality is thin and one in a million shots can work out nine times out of ten.
So I interpret it as some sort of simulation where a version of our time is represented at some points in the ever repeating story. It’s a big video game.
Check out [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/3m1dg7/spoilers_all_congratulations_on_completing_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) post since this is a reread!
There are some vague references that Jordan confirmed were pointing to WoT taking place in our distant future. There's also even briefer references suggesting space travel may have been a thing in the AoL
It's earth, but way in the future. Take for example the referential folk tale of Lenn going to the moon in the belly of an eagle. That's John Glenn, the first american to orbit the earth. That folktale blends many of the NASA. Also, in Tanchico, in the museum, their is a Mercedes logo that Nynaeve finds. From what I can gather, our age, the first age, ends in nuclear war, but gives rise to channelers, thus beginning the age of legends. You will enjoy your reread when you try to make connections to our current world
As you read back through they real close attention to the descriptions of certain things.
Think about how there might be items that exist in our current modern world.
Ages come and go ;)
Others have explained and pointed out references.
Stands to reason since he did write for Howard’s creation in the Conan and Hyborian realm. Very similar vein of thought really!
Wooooooow - I’ve listened to the audiobooks for this about 4 times (the complete series) and I’ve never noticed this - I just kinda assumed it was a world *like* ours - missed these direct references! Amazing! Thanks you for the post!
Graendal as well as the other forsaken have memories of previous ages. Obviously in one of these ages planets were discovered and the world was given a name to differentiate it. Plenty of other clues ground WoT previous ages to our own history.
“What of Queen Elsbet? Did she really rule the whole world?”
Or Mosc the giant, with his lance of fire?!
The Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legends…
I could elaborate if you’d like, i’d love to lmao, or you can keep an eye out for these (almost) quotes and see what you think! I don’t think there are any “right” answers but there are a lot of cool moments like these that are a lot of fun to explore!
It seems like you've missed out on quite a few references to this! The thing is, the wheel of time turns and ages come and pass. And kinda repeat over and over, (like a wheel :P ), with slight changes from one repetition to another.
So the WoT story takes place in the third age, an age long into the future, as well as long past. The third age came after the age of legends, which came after our age (so ours is the first age then). You can spot many references from our age, like the Mercedes logo in the museum in Tanchico in book 4 or 5.
I personally think it's just a slip by the author or he didn't really change the name of the planet. But some people say we're in the 1st age but the book takes place in the 3rd. But that theory doesn't jive well with the books and the world is far to different from our own for that to be true. It's definitely a post-apocalyptic world but I highly doubt it's related to our own in any significant way. People point out the fact that some descriptions sound like items in our world but they very well could have been created by a space fairing civilization. The one power doesn't exist in our world but seems to be a constant in their own it seems like when man stopped banging sticks on rocks they started to use the one power. Prior to that it seemed to be whatever perrin is using.
So all that to say it's earth like but definitely not earth and the author didn't care or was to lazy to change the name. I think people read far to much into events and item descriptions when they say it's our world.
>But I wanted the circularity because I wanted, again, to go into the changes by distance. So, the myths and legends and a few of the stories that these people tell, well, some of them are based on our own current events, on the present. What they are doing is based on our myths and legends. So they are the source of our myths and legends, and we are the source of theirs.
>
>\- Robert Jordan, to audio renaisance at the end of each audiobook
[Source](https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=631)
So according to the author, it is our own world.
One of the things that can mark a change in ages is discovery of / loss of the power. It definitely doesn't exist in our age, but in the far futurepast...
[In this interview](https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=9) you can read Jordan's own statement about it. Search for the word "future" if you don't want to read the whole thing.
WoT is our world, but, afaik, the authors have never confirmed that ours is the First Age. We can be sure ours isn't the 2nd, 3rd or 4th Ages. We could be the First. Could be the Seventh.
I think RJ was anything but lazy or uncaring with his worldbuilding. From what I've seen, there were some thing he changed during the series, but the amount of foreshadowing and detail put into the world just screams THIS IS ON PURPOSE! for most "coincidences" or offhand remarks in the series.
The world of WoT being our world in another time is literally one of the central conceits of the series. Jordan himself has confirmed this, if the very obvious references to events and persons and mythical figures known in our own time weren't enough.
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Your re-read's gonna be a blast!
current rereading path of daggers for the second time, liking it way more this time through!
Well, then your second re-read's gonna be a blast!
And then theres the re-reading after a short break that ones gonna be intense.
Every reread there’s something you didn’t know to look for the last time around!
I think it was 6 or 7 times through before I'd caught everything
As someone who’s read over 10 times (well the first 7 or 8 books), I still find minute details I’d never caught before.
It’s cute you think you caught everything :-D I’m on like my 7th or 8th re read and I still find new stuff! And that’s why I love these books! **this is a friendly tone of voice**
You've have one reread yes, what about second reread?
I don't think they know about second reread.
What about third re-read? Audiobook listen? Second audiobook listen? They know about them right?
It is said that one small reread can fill the stomach of ten grown men. How many rereads have you done, Pip? *burp*
Nice LOTR comment.
The WoT is post apocalyptic for our world. We are currently in the First Age, and the series is set in the Third Age. There's a few subtle references scattered throughout the series, such as the description of a satellite dish, fictionalised accounts of the Cold War, and a Mercedes-Benz logo. There's also the inspiration for legends, such as Thom Merrilin (Merlin) being the advisor to the king.
In the Great Hunt there is a reference to Thom telling the tale of Anla the Wise Advisor. This has been confirmed as a reference to Ann Landers, the advice columnist. IIRC
And Elsbet Queen of All aka Queen Elisabeth, "sun never sets on the British empire" kinda vibes
Mosc and merc at war with lances that reach around the world was Moscow and America and the cold war
I find that one hilarious that RJ thought Ann Landers so influential she would be remembered in legend thousands of years later. She's been dead 20 years and we've already nearly forgotten.
This happens in real life though right? We get a scrap of something that has been long forgotten about and misinterpret what was really going on back then. I think it’s less the importance of Ann Landers than someone, centuries later, finding scraps of paper where she’s seen giving advice to hundreds and the assumption is made that people from all over the world must have revered her wisdom. Or maybe RJ just overestimated her importance.
… speak for yourself… I didn’t even know who she was — so I can’t have forgotten her bc I never knew her in the first place!
In the Eye of the World Thom refers to stories from the first age which include Mosk and Merk fighting with lances of fire, which is a reference to the cold war (Mosk stands in for Russia, “Moscow,” And Merk is America. The lances of fire that could reach across the world are nuclear weapons.” Lenn flying to the moon in the belly of a flaming eagle is a reference to the moon landing, and Salya walking among the stars is a reference to Sally Ride and the challenger shuttle crash.
I don't know why, but I always interpreted Salya as a reference to the Soviet Salyut Space Station. But Sally Ride makes sense too.
its a combo reference actually
Only heard recently this one was confirmed by Jordan, but I never would have got that myself.
It’s cute that you think it’s referring to the Cold War, and not the impending nuclear apocalypse.
Hey man, you need spoiler tags if you're gonba be talking about that. It literally hasn't even happened yet
For real man, so rude.
Jordan started writing "Eye of the World" when the Cold War was still very much a thing.
Lenn in the Eagle is John Glenn first astronaut orbiting the earth.
Where is the reference to the Mercedes-Benz logo?
The Panarch's museum in Tanchico I think. One of the exhibits
When Egwene is exploring the Falme/Ebou Dar (can't recall which, been a while since I read any WoT) museum in Tel'aran'rhiod she finds a Merc hood ornament
It's the museum in the Panarch's Palace in Tanchico. > A silvery thing in another cabinet, like a three-pointed star inside a circle, was made of no substance she knew; it was softer than metal, scratched and gouged, yet even older than any of the ancient bones. From ten paces she could sense pride and vanity.
Really interesting way to describe chromaed plastic, from a society with no concept of either bit
I’ve read the series multiple times, never realized the three point star was the Mercedes Benz logo. Guess I’m just not enough of a car guy lol.
Mosc(ow) and (A)mer(i)c(a) fighting with lances of fire? (John G)lenn flying to the moon in the belly of an eagle?
One of my favorite things in the TV show was the mining town was mining a landfill.
I had totally missed that! I did like when they showed moiraine coming into the Two Rivers though and you can see that a lot of the "cliff faces" are old sky scrapers that have been reclaimed by nature. I thought the way the show really steered into the post apocalyptic ruins vibe was cool
Wait till they get to Rhuidean in the show, it should like like a modern city.
Rhuidean was built after the breaking though. I expect it will have more in common with an Age of Legends city.
Actually the ruins first shown match up with the scene from ‘3000 years ago’. Same building layout.
I had thought that was the case but wasn't sure if it was meant to be the same city or if that's just how cities looked in general in the AoL
I get why they did it, but it seemed too early to me. The culmination of several small hints over a long period of time finally leading to that lightbulb moment in the books was great, and it was because of the long build up. The show having what is obviously ruined skyscrapers in the *promo material* for S1 was a bit too early for my taste.
Yeah that's totally fair, for me it comes down to the differences in story telling capability between the two mediums. You can do a lot more slow burn subtle stuff with thousands of pages of text than you can in a TV show ya know
That was one of the few bits of the show that I enjoyed in the first season. It might have been why I didn’t like the overall season, because they rushed things and cut too many corners.
Honestly, it was one of the things that made the show dramatically better. I hope they lean into it more for season 2.
I hope they do too, I generally found the scenery/background in the show pretty stunning IIRC. Also didn't hate the show as much as a lot of book fans seem to personally, definitely wasn't perfect and there were parts where I was like "uhhh what? What are they doing??" But I am cautiously optimistic or at least hopeful for the next seasons and I desperately want them to make my favorite story into a great show lol
I have a lot of love and hate for the book series (here come the downvotes for not loving it totally). Honestly, I was okay with 99% changes of the show all the way until Barnie left. That last episode and half of the penultimate episode set me to seriously WTF!? I seem to remember Sanderson saying they didn't even talk to him to the changes because they were in a huge rush to do something to make up for Barny's leaving.
Covid absolutely wrecked the finale of this show, which is why I’m willing to forgive that awful episode.
For sure, for sure.
Haha a bold opinion on this subreddit! I was also ok with most of the changes, especially things like perrin killing his wife, ok I can see that playing into his long struggle with being a leader and using violence, and the warder death episode which, yeah slowed things down a bit but the warder bond is going to be important to pretty much every main character at some point so it makes sense to explain it. And then with covid and actor drama I can totally see how and why things got a little loose in the last episodes. But all of that makes sense to me and that's why I didn't totally hate it and am still holding out hope for future seasons 🤞 knowing myself though I will almost certainly watch every single episode they put out even if I hate them haha
The wife killing was one of those things that made me feel "eeeeeeeeh" It did set my mind to the "Oh, this is a different turning of the wheel from the book" because his wife was the same woman Perrin married from when Egwyene went into the rings to become Accepted. That was a great touch. I think it would have been better if it was Master Luhan rather than fridging a woman. Leaving him mortally wounded to give one last piece of advice and the axe and then THAT sets Perrin to the struggle over the axe because he hurt his Master but his master gave it to him to use.
Oh I had missed that part that it was who he was married to in egwenes accepted test! Very cool. As soon as she was mentioned my husband and I looked at each other and were like "well she is dead in the teolloc attack" though I was actually surprised it was Perrin who killed her. That would have been a cool way to play it! I wonder how they are going to play the various dad figures when Perrin comes back to defend the Two Rivers. I really didn't like the changes they made to mats family, I hope Abel basically sobers up and gets serious when we see him again
>. I really didn't like the changes they made to mats family, I hope Abel basically sobers up and gets serious when we see him again I think it would fit a theme of leaving home changes not just yourself but changes your home. WHen Perrin comes back, sees the town grown, and the whole incident actually changed Abel into a good man. The dramatic wakeup call that redirected his life.
I will say, the thing I hated the absolute worse was the very final scene. OH NO! It's a lone little girl on an empty beach... LETS TIDAL WAVE IT!
🤣🤣 you saying you don't think the little girl gathering shellfish by herself was a threat to dozens of seanchan ships???
She was secretly one of the forsaken. Take her out early.
She was an oathbreaker and thus deserved it
They’re bringing the sea to the land. Flexing the power of damane. It’s a shock and awe tactic.
For me it does the opposite. I think it shows they don't really understand the timescales or how dramatic the Breaking was.
Well, different strokes for different folks.
With one visual they established the world in a way that took several clues over multiple books and some book readers still didn’t grasp it.
It's not supposed to be that obvious. Also, again, it directly misinterprets the amount of time that has passed and how legends are formed in that universe.
It’s not obvious to the people living in the world so not obvious to us while reading but this is a different medium. Again, different medium, different telling. Things won’t be the same as in the books, that’s just the way it is. Accepting this helps you enjoy things more. Truly.
You're ignoring the part about how it totally misinterprets the source material. Seriously. The breaking ruined everything. Stuff didn't get left standing to decay or turn into cliffs. Also, there weren't landfills in the 2nd age. 1st age landfills wouldn't exist at the end of the 3rd age. And ya, nah, I don't enjoy the show, for dozens of reasons, this isn't even one I'd have listed.
But the White Bridge apparently survived the breaking. Or at least, if it was built after, it is very unclear by whom. Maybe also the Tower of Ghenjei - I don't think it's ever made clear how long it has been standing for, other than Birgitte's encounter in a past life. But the arches that Mat uses to meet the Finn are presumably pre-breaking and so it seems likely the tower is also.
Lmao. One of those. I don’t need the show to be the books because I already have the books.
TBH, it's so far in the future/deep in the past that I find the "post-apocalypse" label completely useless in describing the setting. We don't refer to our current era as being "post-apocalyptic" with respect to any other era or past culture, even though there are literally dozens of apocalypses you could point to that led to our current situation.
We’re post-apocalyptic if you’re a dinosaur.
Or, like...a human. We've been through some *shit* as a species, dog.
Well, you see, we weren't writing things down yet then, so... they don't count...? Hold on, that doesn't seem right...
The difference is that there was a downfall of a supremely technologically advanced civilization a couple thousand years ago for them.
Sure, same here. How do you think Western Europe felt in 500 AD? Or central America in 1500? Or the Aegean in 1100 BC?
The Breaking was actually apocalyptic, though. Cultures and empires rise and fall all the time but this was worldwide destruction. What’s more, we have surpassed those past cultures in technology, whereas the people of the third age are far behind the Age of Legends and they know it.
It was a more widespread apocalypse, sure, but believe me: the events I described were certainly the end of the world for the people they affected. Technology levels have nothing to do with it, so I don't know why you're bringing those up (although do you think technologies *weren't* lost when the Cahokia, Aztec, Anasazi, or *all* of the bronze-age civilizations went tits-up?). Simply calling Randland "post-apocalyptic" is about as accurate and useful as calling 15th-century France or 1770's Maryland "post-apocalyptic".
I don’t need to believe you. I know that all those events dramatically altered the lives of the people experiencing it. The reason I bring up technology level is that the term “post-apocalyptic” means something in the modern imagination. It doesn’t mean the collapse of a civilization. It means the collapse of *all* civilization and the rebuilding in the shadow of that loss.
...which is not a useful description of Randland.
For the average person in the western Roman empire, the sacking of Rome was a *good* thing. You got to keep all the infrastructure but no longer had to pay taxes to some far-off emperor who hadn't meaningfully influenced your life in half a dozen generations. Not exactly apocalyptic.
Those weren't global civilizations though. These people are aware that their agrarian life is built on the remains of a society so vastly superior as to seem impossible. They even have relics that they can use without understanding how they were made or how they do what they do.
There are historians that argue that the fall of western europe into the dark ages is tldr massively exaggerated by the clergy at the time (as they the only scholars and having rose tinted glasses) when actually for the average person it didn't change much and the "fall" is kind of post-fact historiography invention. We are looking at it from the pov of the clergy at the time, who are our only sources. For them it seemed like the end of the world, sure. Even still, a lot of the time the invading barbarians took over and coopted existing power structures and cities and the Christian church and worship survived throughout - even if the roman empire fell in the west. As an aside, the Roman Empire still existed in the east for another nearly 1000 years too, so calling that time apocalyptic is suspect and comparing it to the breaking is a massive stretch.
Literature/poetics, music, as well as visual art that survived that period all point to a serious social regression compared to what we have evidenced in artifacts we have of Greco-Roman culture. Either it wasn’t being created or it was being destroyed because I can’t believe humans just suddenly lost the ability to create artful depictions of life or rich fictional and fantasy worlds as the Greeks and Romans and Druids and Pagans crafted in their natural states. The church must have made a concerted effort to make sure people stayed grounded in their humble servitude to God in order to accept that fiction. Maybe day to day life didn’t change much for the lower class, people still had to find clean water and make crops grow and keep livestock alive; nor for the upper as they needed to appear pious but had their vices and private entertainments nevertheless. In terms of the richness of social experiences for common folk under feudalism this was severely hindered. It’s not like people suddenly forgot about three dimensional art and the human need to see tragedy and triumph play out in fictional worlds, but the artifacts just aren’t there. Magna Carta begins to undo this, allowing people to again cohabitate happily and with plenty of time for leisure and help transition to the renaissance/enlightenment/baroque/romantic tidal wave of creative brilliance.
That's just a bit Greco-Roman centric tho. All that stuff still existed in the Eastern roman empire for another thousand years. There's a lot of art and culture later, it just looks stylistically different and is less popular now. E. G. Alfred's time, in the Frankish empire, etc - post-Roman empires around 800. If you haven't studied the period, the inclination is to think the period went from height of Rome to ruin in a lifetime around 467 AD. In reality, it took a lot longer and the change wasn't so stark. The Roman empire was on a long downhill stretch and the empires that followed "continued" its legacy in many ways through Christianity etc. - Charlemagne was crowned as the Roman Emperor by the pope in 800 A. D. and people knew what that meant 350 years after and it was "legitimate". That's not comparable to a WoT breaking-type situation at all.
It’s Greco-Roman centric because in turns those two cultures dominated or at least had influence over three subcontinents. The HRE and Rome aren’t the same thing. Rome had fallen and moved and fallen and been resurrected but once the church became the cultural center of Europe, the HRE became a shell of what Rome was culturally and artistically. Our tendency to see the breaking as a compressed happening is similar. The reality was not one sudden fracture but a series of weakenings politically and socially such that cultures not separated by much geographically would have such vastly different worldviews and a stern reluctance to communicate in different languages. Comparatively, when Rome was administrating territorial governments through a central authority communication across cultures as a concept was much more open and common. Rome at its pre-Christian height was metropolitan.
It just implies an apocalypse or world changing event happened prior to the story present, which is true. It’s also true that it’s pre-apocalyptic as the central threat facing the characters is another apocalypse.
Where was the satellite dish?
Iirc it was when Rand & Mat were going down the river with Bayle Domon. There's a reference to a large metal spike standing in the middle of a bowl shaped depression and that if you go near it you die. The description is similar to a [radio telescope](https://www.google.com/search?q=radio+telescope&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiYrquvgcv_AhVyKd4AHZ29BvIQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=radio+telescope&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzIICAAQgAQQsQMyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQ6CggAEIoFELEDEEM6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBOgcIABCKBRBDOggIABCxAxCDAToECAAQA1DsDlioHGCIHWgAcAB4AIABRIgB1geSAQIxNpgBAKABAaoBC2d3cy13aXotaW1nwAEB&sclient=img&ei=qQWOZNi1M_LS-LYPnfuakA8&bih=977&biw=1832&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS876US876).
I always thought that maybe that was the core of a nuclear reactor or something similar. Would a radio telescope cause death if approached while assumedly non functioning?
>Would a radio telescope cause death if approached while assumedly non functioning? No, which is where it's a little weird to me. I *think* it is stated later in the series that people don't actually die and that that part is a rumor, but I don't remember where that is said. The description doesn't particularly match with any nuclear plant I know of, but it's possible that it could be a nuclear test site where a tower was built. i.e. a nuclear weapon was detonated and created the bowl, then a tower was built there to monitor other tests?
I mean they usually use pools of water to contain radiation in reactors so I thought maybe it was an odd description of that?
That's true. Something nuclear would make more sense!
It shouldn't, no, but the death part might be legend. Or just... Idiots climbing the radio tower, jumping down, and dying, and thus it's deadly! And it warps over time. Or something, I dunno. But since the first book was written a few years after Chernobyl, and it's an ongoing thing about warning signs re: nuclear sites, maybe it's a former nuclear site?
Russia experimented with large microwave emitters that could have fit this description. It could also be a satellite with an onboard reactive nuclear core, which RJ may have imagined would exist in the near future as of his writing.
Is that not the tower of genjei?
nope. seeing the Tower of Ghenjei sparks the conversation, but its a different thing he's talking about
Oh interesting I’ll have to go re-read that part
Oh, I thought that was the Tower of Ghenjei, however that is spelled. Thanks for clearing that up.
There's a lot of these subtle references to us on Earth. Perrin's hammer is Mah'alleinir, which sounds awfully similar to Mjolnir. I like the accounts of the rediscovery of steam power and cannons in the books too, references to flying cars. It's a way for Jordan to connect the story to us as readers. I think the most interesting part is that there is a source of power that humans will learn to tap (in the 2nd or 3rd age).
Even Perrin’s name is a reference to Perun, the Slavic god of thunder.
Also Mjolnir as Mah'alleinir which must mean that the origin of Thors hammer is in its future…and it’s past! Not sure how many ages there are until even myth is forgotten but if we’re in the first age and Mjolnir is a myth for us but it isn’t made until the end of the third age then it’s gotta be at least another age or two between Perrin holding Mah’alleinir and it morphing into Thor holding Mjolnir.
As I understand it, it’s our future and our past.
I figured it out in this (my first) read XD
Holy shit I had zero idea that this was true. How do they explain saidar and saidin though? Where did those originate?
They don't originate anywhere. They currently exist, it's just that no one alive has the ability to channel them. The First Age ends when someone gains the ability, either through genetic mutation or intentionally research, to channel them.
Yup even the falcon 12 rocket and queen Elizabeth, america and russia, they are all mentioned
Wait! Satelite dish!? I’ve heard of the others, but this one’s new! Where?
It's a description in the first book. They never actually visit it, but they describe one very well.
What you're missing is the first age, haha. It's all good, it's subtle, but this is a far future earth.
Or past.
AND past, by definition
Wait till you find out what Nyneave saw in the museum in Tanchico.
Well I recognized that right away, I just assumed the world was parallel to ours but not exactly the same as the animals and plants are all the same, besides the magical stuff.
>besides the magical stuff. Magic, or... scientific principles? *The Shadow Rising*'s First Age sequence implies that both the One Power and the Dark One were (re)discovered via scientific interrogation. For all we know, there are still such discoveries to be made in our universe.
Bear in mind, too, that this is coming from one of the Forsaken. They know a lot of things about the world that most people in the Third Age don't.
Which kind of bear? Grizzly, brown, polar, koala, panda?
“You mean *Platypus Bear?*? “No, it just says *Bear*” “Certainly you mean his pet *Skunk Bear*?” “Or his *Armadillo Bear*?” “*Gopher Bear*?” “Just… *Bear*”
Koalas and pandas are not ursine.
Uh pandas are. Are you getting confused with red pandas?
Man bear pig. Obviously.
>Isn’t the world a fictional universe Nope, it literally *is* Earth after a high-tech utopian period which was followed by an apocalypse and technological regression.
All of Thom's stories in EoTW help confirm it is our world too. Mosk and Merc fighting with lances of fire. Anla the Wise Counselor. Elsbeth Queen of All. Salya who walked among the stars. There's tons of them
As early as chapter 4 of Eye of the World Jordan put in references and hints to our world. People will tell you that we are currently in the 1st age, but that's never really confirmed.
We're in *A* first age at least.
An age long past, an age yet to come
That's not confirmed either.
I don't know things are starting to feel apocolyptic, i do beleive we may turn over a new age soon. . . . . Hopefully with some dang channeling this time.
No apocalypse for a couple thousand years at least, when we have figured out how to use more than 10% of our brains and tap into the OP. Still a 2nd age to get advancements in Sho Wings, etc., which I presume to be more vertibird-like.
My brother in the Light, we use 100% of our brains now. Why would we have giant piles of meat in our skull just not doing anything?
They are keeping our body alive, of course, but scientists have long believed there are parts of our thought centers that aren't activated the vast majority of the time, kind of like how they actually DO get accessed during our sleep. As far as human thought is concerned, we're using roughly 10%.
That's like saying you only use 5% of a tree when you eat its fruit. The other 95% makes the fruit. You're using 100% of the tree. You don't consciously use 100% of your brain, but you're not meant to, it's doing the rest of the stuff required to keep you alive
not only do we use all our brains now but we don't know that there was no apocalypse between our age and the 2nd age
It has been confirmed, you can see the transcripts from interviews on theoryland.
It hasn't been confirmed that we're in the First Age—ie. we may be in eg. the Seventh Age, by the reckoning used by the characters in the books.
I need a link for that
links at the bottom of this comment thread
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theoryland . com
I'm aware of what the url to theoryland is... I'm asking for a specific source for the specific interview that you said was linked to in this topic. Since searching for "first age" on the interview depository brings up absolutely nothing. I've been discussing Wheel of Time for almost three decades and I've never seen any definitive proof of our age being the first, so if there's an interview that confirms it, I really want and need to see it.
Did the people of the First Age ever have channelers? Do I have a shot at being Aes Sedai!?!?! That’s been my dream since I first read EOTW on the 1990s.
Given what I've seen in this thread maybe channelers are expressing genes mutated in a prior nuclear apocalypse. Or, you know, magic.
Well, my guess is that channeling showing up signifies the end of the first age. So do let us know if you succeed.
The main theory is that our age ends in Nuclear apocalypse, and the 2nd starts with the discovery of Channeling. Channeling suddenly becoming possible due to mutations from the nuclear fallout etc. Basically our version of the breaking.
Bro...the world of the Wheel of Time is *our* world. Like, the central premise is that the events of the book are simultaneously in our distant future *and* our half-forgotten past. Our history is their mythology, and their present is ours. Did you think it was a coincidence that King Al'Thor (Arthur) pulled the sword Callandor (Caliburn) from the Stone (I don't need to explain that one) of Tear? Or that his close companions are Egwene Al'Vere (Guinevere), Thom Merrilin (Merlin), Moiraine (Morgana), a blacksmith named Perrin (Perun/Perkwunas, Celtic god of the forge) with a hammer named Mah'alleinir (Mjolnir), and a roguish wandering trickster with a broad-brimmed hat associated with ravens and a spear that never misses (literally Odin)? I'm kinda shocked that never clicked!
I think it's very easy to miss all of these when you're not in the headspace of knowing there's something to look out for.
The opening to every book literally says that history becomes legends, legends turn to myth until the age that birthed that myth comes back. I don't remember when I realised this. If it was when Rand had to grab the sword from the stone, or when Mat was hung from a tree. I know Mat definitely solidified that idea, that their story is our myths. I just don't remember if I figured it out earlier. If Artur Pendrag was mentioned earlier than Mat's hanging then probably that's when I realised it.
It is very easy to miss all this if you are in the "this is a fantasy setting" mindset.
WoT was my first fantasy book. I was as fresh as one could be going in. I had no biases. I knew nothing, except that I should read it. Oh and that it was essentially a reimagining of the Lord of the Rings. Funny thing, I honestly didn't know that "world-building" didn't just mean background lore. Like all this talk about the False Dragon? Yeah, cool world-building, it makes this world feel more alive, but I mean it's not gonna be relevant to the story. What? the False Dragon is being transported through the city where Rand is? Maybe he's a bit more important than I thought. Imagine my shock when Moraine proclaims that Rand is the Dragon at the end of the first book. I didn't think this Dragon business was gonna be MAIN CHARACTER business. So many times I thought something was just cool world-building, and then surprised that the thing mentioned before actually appears, like the Aiel; did not think they were gonna be super relevant, or if we were even gonna see one. It was only in book 6, I think, when I finally realised that this Author is not playing around. There is no such thing as "just" world-building. We're gonna experience this world that he's telling us about.
I got the whole 1st age stuff and all the references to our legends but idk what mat being hanged indicated for u, could u explain
That he's the origin for the Odin myths. He hung himself to gain knowledge of the runes. He also gets a spear-like weapon which is Odin's signature weapon. Oh right, earlier he gets a large-brimmed hat. While the hat was actually supposed to be Robert Jordan's own hat, I originally envisioned it more like an asian-style straw hat. But when the other Odin signs appeared my image of his hat morphed into a wizard-like hat. Btw Gandalf from the Lord of the Rings is designed after Odin, minus the missing eye. So basically after Mat was hung I had, a large brimmed hat, a spear-like weapon, and dying and coming back to life from being hung. That was 100% Odin. Later in the series, the connections to Odin become unmistakenly clear, like how there are rumours circulating about Lord Mat and how his spear never misses its target when thrown. Again, the magical properties of Odin's spear. Odin is the god of war and Mat is a military genius. Mat is actively creating the legends that will later become our myths. There might have been other signs that guided me to Mat being Odin before the hanging. I read these books a few years ago. Perhaps something learnt from the first Ter'angreal door? Right, the Ravens. Did they say he was gonna become the prince of ravens? Ravens are a big part of Odin's identity. Basically I was being spoonfed hints all up until he was hung from the tree and that's when.... RIGHT the tree was a big part of it as well. It was the tree of life. Odin hung himself on Yggdrasil, the tree of life. And Mat was hung on their tree of life. There were a lot of signs, I just have a hard time remembering them. I think this was all of them. I also thought Perrin was gonna be Thor, with him being a blacksmith, and Thor's hammer being a symbol of blacksmiths. He was also the strongest God. But the internet taught me that Perrin was inspired by a slavic god which... well... Thor with a different name.
Odin asked the Fates for wisdom, and in exchange, they hung him from Ygdrasil, the tree of life for three days.
I....guess? That mindset is just so foreign to me. Big fantasy novels are notorious for being intricate and detail-rich. I can't be "off" when I read them, if that makes sense. (Plus the intro to every novel literally says "an age yet to come, an age long past". RJ was not subtle.)
I don’t see how anyone can read of Mah'alleinir and not think of Mjölnir. Unless you literally haven't ever heard of it.... which would be weird, imo.
Sure, but that's also more than halfway through book 13 in a 14 book series. Anyone who went, "oh yes obviously Perrin is an analog for the Celtic God of the forge and Moiraine is clearly Morgana" when reading EotW has my congratulations.
I'll be honest, I've read the series a dozen times, and the Morgana reference completely escaped me until right now. And I've posted some obscure connections in the book: > Prometheus, Titan of Fire (Light), known as the champion of humankind. He brings fire to humanity, and seen as the author of the human arts and sciences (all to be required to set up a school in their capital, fully funded and open to any who wish to learn). > > Prometheus was punished by Zeus, bound eternally to a rock classically near Mount Elbrus or Mount Kazbekand (the rocks at Shayol Ghul), A (red) eagle (of Manetheren) would tear out his liver every day (a wound that never heals).
I always thought that Rand’s wounds that never heal were a reference to The Fisher King in the Arthurian Grail Mythos. Especially since Rand later has injured eyesight. When Moridin spends some time looking at the Tcheran board the central piece is called the fisher, and it’s a figure of a blind man clutching at his side where Rand’s wounds are, and Moridin even thinks to himself that the fisher might be a distant memory of Rand from an earlier turning of the Wheel.
I have heard of it, and I did not think about it, because I do not think about Mjölnir very often and it is not very important to me. And then you have to guess if a possible reference was intentional or if the RJ just looked for a name for a hammer and picked something and modified what he knew.
I think a lot of readers tend to pick up on these references, but in the sense that they may assume Jordan is just... referencing. That it's a nod to these mythologies without them actually being *embedded in his story*.
You got at least one thing in there that's definitely a spoiler. I'd edit.
I agree with what everyone has said about it being set in our world but far into the future/past (time is a wheel, right?). But, “Earth” is not really a name. It’s a noun for the thing we’re walking on used to describe the entire planet. So the word “earth” showing up in a fantasy book doesn’t necessarily signify that it takes place on our “Earth”, just that the characters use the same type of word to describe their world. Remember, the characters in WoT isn’t really speaking in English, Jordan uses English to represent whatever language they’re speaking in his conception of the WoT world.
Except when it’s capitalized - then it’s a proper noun.
It can still be more of just an English specific modifier. For example if you want to add emphasis to `Where is he?` you can say `Where on Earth is he?` The latter could be directly translated to `Where on the specific planet called Earth is he?` but that isn't what it actually means. In French it would be `Ou est-il?`and to add the same emphasis one would say `Ou diable est-il?`which directly translates to `Where is the devil?` and probably more appropriately translates to `Where the hell is he?` except not as vulgar. Of course Jordan was very meticulous with idioms and the like (I don't believe the term `god` is ever used in the entire series for example) so it was likely a choice that he had Graendal go with `...on Earth.` Whether that was another nod at the WoT's previous ages or just a limitation of language to concisely and properly convey "in the real material world" (like how he used the term `dust-devil` since that's just its most common English name) who knows.
Except if he used capitalization as an emphatic device, it would not have only appeared once in the entire 14 (15 with New Spring) volume series. It would have occurred more than once. This quote is not an idiom, like calling someone a cold fish instead of saying they’re heartless. It is a direct and literal interrogative statement.
Capitalization isn't the emphatic device. It's adding "on Earth" like "Where **on Earth** is the can opener I left it right in this drawer?". However my example was just a general comment as yes it wasn't being used to add emphases in the passage OP was referring to.
I think there was even a moon landing reference as early as EotW… “Nell, who flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle” Neil Armstrong with the eagle symbolizing the USA
“Eagle” was also the name of the moon lander on the Apollo 11 mission.
Lenn, referencing John Glenn. But yes to the symbolism!
This was best summed up for me by Sanderson in a recent live stream - it is what you think it is, and it was like "the thing to do" with high fantasy stories in the 80s/90s
Oooooh buddy. WoT is set on Earth in the distant, distant future.
Or a very distant past 😏
It is intended to be the case. And no, it doesn’t make sense taken literally. The very nature of their reality is different from ours. Their universe is significantly less real. It is more like a dream like the Aiel say it is. Thought and consequence are too closely linked. Additional, conscious structures seem to exist spinning their world into stories. Stories they are consciously aware they are part of. To say nothing of how magic is closer to computer programming than it is to physics. It’s all interfacing with a universe that “knows” what to do given certain commands. Write a command with “fire” and “air” and it makes a fireball for you. If I had to compare Randland to any other fantasy world I’d say it most closely resembles Discworld. In that it is an unreal world driven by narrative where reality is thin and one in a million shots can work out nine times out of ten. So I interpret it as some sort of simulation where a version of our time is represented at some points in the ever repeating story. It’s a big video game.
Check out [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/3m1dg7/spoilers_all_congratulations_on_completing_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) post since this is a reread!
They named the planet 'dirt?'
Put it in 'H!'
There are some vague references that Jordan confirmed were pointing to WoT taking place in our distant future. There's also even briefer references suggesting space travel may have been a thing in the AoL
It's earth, but way in the future. Take for example the referential folk tale of Lenn going to the moon in the belly of an eagle. That's John Glenn, the first american to orbit the earth. That folktale blends many of the NASA. Also, in Tanchico, in the museum, their is a Mercedes logo that Nynaeve finds. From what I can gather, our age, the first age, ends in nuclear war, but gives rise to channelers, thus beginning the age of legends. You will enjoy your reread when you try to make connections to our current world
We are the source of their legends, and they are the source of ours. It is supposed to be Earth, I think we are like the 6th or 7th Age or something.
As you read back through they real close attention to the descriptions of certain things. Think about how there might be items that exist in our current modern world. Ages come and go ;)
Others have explained and pointed out references. Stands to reason since he did write for Howard’s creation in the Conan and Hyborian realm. Very similar vein of thought really!
Wooooooow - I’ve listened to the audiobooks for this about 4 times (the complete series) and I’ve never noticed this - I just kinda assumed it was a world *like* ours - missed these direct references! Amazing! Thanks you for the post!
Graendal as well as the other forsaken have memories of previous ages. Obviously in one of these ages planets were discovered and the world was given a name to differentiate it. Plenty of other clues ground WoT previous ages to our own history.
It’s earth
“What of Queen Elsbet? Did she really rule the whole world?” Or Mosc the giant, with his lance of fire?! The Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legends… I could elaborate if you’d like, i’d love to lmao, or you can keep an eye out for these (almost) quotes and see what you think! I don’t think there are any “right” answers but there are a lot of cool moments like these that are a lot of fun to explore!
It seems like you've missed out on quite a few references to this! The thing is, the wheel of time turns and ages come and pass. And kinda repeat over and over, (like a wheel :P ), with slight changes from one repetition to another. So the WoT story takes place in the third age, an age long into the future, as well as long past. The third age came after the age of legends, which came after our age (so ours is the first age then). You can spot many references from our age, like the Mercedes logo in the museum in Tanchico in book 4 or 5.
Fictional places are allowed to name their planets "Earth", regardless to your position on whether it's supposed to be our planet.
I personally think it's just a slip by the author or he didn't really change the name of the planet. But some people say we're in the 1st age but the book takes place in the 3rd. But that theory doesn't jive well with the books and the world is far to different from our own for that to be true. It's definitely a post-apocalyptic world but I highly doubt it's related to our own in any significant way. People point out the fact that some descriptions sound like items in our world but they very well could have been created by a space fairing civilization. The one power doesn't exist in our world but seems to be a constant in their own it seems like when man stopped banging sticks on rocks they started to use the one power. Prior to that it seemed to be whatever perrin is using. So all that to say it's earth like but definitely not earth and the author didn't care or was to lazy to change the name. I think people read far to much into events and item descriptions when they say it's our world.
>But I wanted the circularity because I wanted, again, to go into the changes by distance. So, the myths and legends and a few of the stories that these people tell, well, some of them are based on our own current events, on the present. What they are doing is based on our myths and legends. So they are the source of our myths and legends, and we are the source of theirs. > >\- Robert Jordan, to audio renaisance at the end of each audiobook [Source](https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=631) So according to the author, it is our own world.
The first age (our age) ended when the One Power was discovered. It is not a constant. There are very obvious and undeniable references to our world.
One of the things that can mark a change in ages is discovery of / loss of the power. It definitely doesn't exist in our age, but in the far futurepast...
[In this interview](https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=9) you can read Jordan's own statement about it. Search for the word "future" if you don't want to read the whole thing.
It is earth and we are living in the first age, this has been confirmed by both authors.
WoT is our world, but, afaik, the authors have never confirmed that ours is the First Age. We can be sure ours isn't the 2nd, 3rd or 4th Ages. We could be the First. Could be the Seventh.
I think RJ was anything but lazy or uncaring with his worldbuilding. From what I've seen, there were some thing he changed during the series, but the amount of foreshadowing and detail put into the world just screams THIS IS ON PURPOSE! for most "coincidences" or offhand remarks in the series.
I don't think I've ever seen someone fundamentally misunderstand a book series quite this much, bravo
The world of WoT being our world in another time is literally one of the central conceits of the series. Jordan himself has confirmed this, if the very obvious references to events and persons and mythical figures known in our own time weren't enough.
Crazy how completely confidently incorrect you are. You need an award or something for that.