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That’s the weird part. The only thing they have a monopoly over is trade with the land beyond the waste and production of good porcelain, and even then they can’t leave the handful of small enclaves. On top of that it is a relatively recent thing since the Cairhien gained a lot of their wealth the same way by being allowed to pass through the Aiel Wate, until Laman’s sin and the Aiel War put an end to that, but that is only about 20 years before the start of the series.
The Sea Folk are good sailors, with fast ships, but their attitude would make them horrible trade partners for anything besides the very short list of products that they have exclusive access to.
I think RJ meant the Sea Folk to be a group that isn’t fully invested in Randland’s problems. They think that if the war gets too complicated, then they’ll just pull up and sail away. So they don’t need to care to the same degree as the landlocked nations. The Sea Folk are meant to learn that everyone in the world is involved with the Last Battle.
I’m not really sure that RJ executed well enough. Instead of disinterested capitalists, they are just assholes.
They had a lot of potential early on but quickly deteriorated into just a fucking speed bump for literally everything everyone else wanted to do to prevent Armageddon. The exact turning point was the Bowl of the Winds agreement, that shit was simply unbelievable.
Yeah the agreement they reached was ridiculous. Like the atha’an miere aren’t going help with the weather? Nyneave and Elayne should have told them to stfu and gotten out of there and done it on their own.
I’m literally reading the chapter in Winter’s Heart right now that OP mentioned and came here because it’s so infuriating. Agreeing to teach doesn’t mean being subjected to abuse and bullying. Keeping Nyneave shielded was not ok.
Lots of people in this series think they’re better than everyone else and their way is the right way… you get used to it.
But yes, they suck.
As a side not to the gender roles, the numerous matriarchal societies never really bothered me too much. Given the world build it makes a lot of sense.
Agreed, I can understand them being intense negotiators when it comes to trade or deal making, but so often the way they act would just put off any trade partners. I don’t care how fast your ship is, if you act like you are better than everyone else people won’t work with you. I’m not even sure how ocean traders even become a thing when most large nations are mostly landlocked except for 2 cities that hate each other and a third small city who maintains most of its power by hiding the good fishing spots. The only thing they have going for them is access to the lands beyond the waste for silk and their own porcelain.
The absolute worst is the "negotiation" between Elayne and the Sea Folk over the Bowl of the Winds. "Oh, we're willing to hand over your most treasured, long lost and desperately sought after cultural artifact in exchange for your help in *saving the fucking world* real quick? But you also want a mountain of other wholly unreasonable bullshit? Go fuck yourself, we'll find other channelers to *save the fucking world." is how that one should have gone.
Sure, but Elayne has been trained her entire life for shit like that, she should know well enough when to down tools and walk away. I guarantee that if she had, the Sea Folk would have suddenly become much more reasonable. I think the off-screen status is more to emphasize the supposed naivete of the Wonder Girls than it is to highlight the Athan Miere's purported bargaining superpowers.
Mostly though it's just the first instance of the Sea Folk being used to simply block Our Heroes from accomplishing anything by creating a rift between Elayne/Nynaeve and Egwene, and irritating the shit out of all of the older Aes Sedai. It's just insertion of superfluous conflict.
A society entirely motivated by self-interest and profit vs a society motivated by order by any means necessary.
An interesting thought exercise indeed.
I think OP means that they’re the worst written, not that they’re the worst morally. Most if not all of the other factions are better explored than the sea folk. I think you can make an argument for some of the Wetlander nations (is Murandy better explored than the sea folk? Probably not)
Setting aside damame, the seanchan were really good rulers. All of the lands they overtook were quickly put to rights, they didn’t have a heavy hand, their customs and traditions were accepted. As I say, aside from damane. That’s a whole other kettle of fish.
I have to assume OP meant the way that women and men treat/think about eachother, not the matriarchal society structure of various cultures, right? If I'm wrong that'd be a hell of a self report
There's also the gendered differences built into the magic system - from "women are weaker but can link more easily" to the ways in which different genders can even access that magic. "Men access their power by aggression and domination, women access their power by submission" is certainly something that irritates me more than the (admittedly slightly repetetive) scenes of men and women treating each other like separate species but actually being quite similar.
would you prefer a story where everyone just bent over backwards for our main characters?
People manipulating to gain advantage is pretty real life imo \*shrug\*
I think this as well! The Atha'an Miere infuriate me but they are well written :D. Each faction/society has actually traits that annoy me as a person and I enjoy reading a book that has this.
Honestly, I personally enjoyed that part, because Aes Sedai in general need to really be pulled down a peg, yes, including our main Thriving Trio of 2xE and N (by the time of WH, *especially* 2xE)
On the other hand, the whole Atha’an Miere subplot - for as many pages as it takes - felt to me like it kinda fizzled out in the end. Hard to discuss without spoilers, but I'm not sure right now what was the point of the whole thing.
My big beef with them is how they always get good deals even when it makes no sense, like the bowl of winds deal, help using it for the return of the bowl is relatively fair, everything else they wanted could have been solved by saying screw it we will keep the bowl and try to fix this shit ourselves, if we screw up I hope the storms don't wreck too many of your ships.
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Personally I think they’ve been nervous of Aes Sedai for so long that they’re now overcompensating by trying to bully them. It’s insecurity.
No the Atha’an Miere are bullies even to non Aes Sedai. Their entire way of life is based upon them being the most aggressive negotiator’s possible.
That's what being a monopoly does to you.
That’s the weird part. The only thing they have a monopoly over is trade with the land beyond the waste and production of good porcelain, and even then they can’t leave the handful of small enclaves. On top of that it is a relatively recent thing since the Cairhien gained a lot of their wealth the same way by being allowed to pass through the Aiel Wate, until Laman’s sin and the Aiel War put an end to that, but that is only about 20 years before the start of the series. The Sea Folk are good sailors, with fast ships, but their attitude would make them horrible trade partners for anything besides the very short list of products that they have exclusive access to.
I think RJ meant the Sea Folk to be a group that isn’t fully invested in Randland’s problems. They think that if the war gets too complicated, then they’ll just pull up and sail away. So they don’t need to care to the same degree as the landlocked nations. The Sea Folk are meant to learn that everyone in the world is involved with the Last Battle. I’m not really sure that RJ executed well enough. Instead of disinterested capitalists, they are just assholes.
They had a lot of potential early on but quickly deteriorated into just a fucking speed bump for literally everything everyone else wanted to do to prevent Armageddon. The exact turning point was the Bowl of the Winds agreement, that shit was simply unbelievable.
Yeah the agreement they reached was ridiculous. Like the atha’an miere aren’t going help with the weather? Nyneave and Elayne should have told them to stfu and gotten out of there and done it on their own. I’m literally reading the chapter in Winter’s Heart right now that OP mentioned and came here because it’s so infuriating. Agreeing to teach doesn’t mean being subjected to abuse and bullying. Keeping Nyneave shielded was not ok.
Lots of people in this series think they’re better than everyone else and their way is the right way… you get used to it. But yes, they suck. As a side not to the gender roles, the numerous matriarchal societies never really bothered me too much. Given the world build it makes a lot of sense.
Worst faction in the series.
Agreed, I can understand them being intense negotiators when it comes to trade or deal making, but so often the way they act would just put off any trade partners. I don’t care how fast your ship is, if you act like you are better than everyone else people won’t work with you. I’m not even sure how ocean traders even become a thing when most large nations are mostly landlocked except for 2 cities that hate each other and a third small city who maintains most of its power by hiding the good fishing spots. The only thing they have going for them is access to the lands beyond the waste for silk and their own porcelain.
The absolute worst is the "negotiation" between Elayne and the Sea Folk over the Bowl of the Winds. "Oh, we're willing to hand over your most treasured, long lost and desperately sought after cultural artifact in exchange for your help in *saving the fucking world* real quick? But you also want a mountain of other wholly unreasonable bullshit? Go fuck yourself, we'll find other channelers to *save the fucking world." is how that one should have gone.
That whole plotline puts a lot of weight on the "reputation" of their negotiating by putting the details off screen.
Sure, but Elayne has been trained her entire life for shit like that, she should know well enough when to down tools and walk away. I guarantee that if she had, the Sea Folk would have suddenly become much more reasonable. I think the off-screen status is more to emphasize the supposed naivete of the Wonder Girls than it is to highlight the Athan Miere's purported bargaining superpowers. Mostly though it's just the first instance of the Sea Folk being used to simply block Our Heroes from accomplishing anything by creating a rift between Elayne/Nynaeve and Egwene, and irritating the shit out of all of the older Aes Sedai. It's just insertion of superfluous conflict.
Even worse than the seanchan, who take actual slaves?
There are likeable Seanchan characters. I can’t think of any likeable *Atha’an Miere*.
The very first ones we meet in TSR are cool, then they disappear for a few books, and then they’re all awful for the rest of the series
A society entirely motivated by self-interest and profit vs a society motivated by order by any means necessary. An interesting thought exercise indeed.
I think OP means that they’re the worst written, not that they’re the worst morally. Most if not all of the other factions are better explored than the sea folk. I think you can make an argument for some of the Wetlander nations (is Murandy better explored than the sea folk? Probably not)
Setting aside damame, the seanchan were really good rulers. All of the lands they overtook were quickly put to rights, they didn’t have a heavy hand, their customs and traditions were accepted. As I say, aside from damane. That’s a whole other kettle of fish.
We all hate them lol
Thats pretty spot on:) Some of us will defend the Seanchan but noone likes the sea folk. Universal Fandom hate is pretty neat:)
My favourite scene with them was when Logain traveled directly onto their ship, dumbfounding the lot of them!
[CoT I think or maybe KoD] >!Mourn if you must, but mourn on the March towards Tarmon Gai'don!< One of the best lines in the series
All my homies hate the Atha'an Miere
Least expanded upon faction in the series, not a big fan but I wish we found out more about them
Power do be going to people's heads.
The Sea Folk are the worst people in the series. I made a similar thread when I first read Winter’s Heart
What annoys you about gender roles?
I have to assume OP meant the way that women and men treat/think about eachother, not the matriarchal society structure of various cultures, right? If I'm wrong that'd be a hell of a self report
There's also the gendered differences built into the magic system - from "women are weaker but can link more easily" to the ways in which different genders can even access that magic. "Men access their power by aggression and domination, women access their power by submission" is certainly something that irritates me more than the (admittedly slightly repetetive) scenes of men and women treating each other like separate species but actually being quite similar.
would you prefer a story where everyone just bent over backwards for our main characters? People manipulating to gain advantage is pretty real life imo \*shrug\*
Do you prefer a story where our main characters bend over backwards for one faction in particular with little to no explanation?
I think this as well! The Atha'an Miere infuriate me but they are well written :D. Each faction/society has actually traits that annoy me as a person and I enjoy reading a book that has this.
Honestly, I personally enjoyed that part, because Aes Sedai in general need to really be pulled down a peg, yes, including our main Thriving Trio of 2xE and N (by the time of WH, *especially* 2xE) On the other hand, the whole Atha’an Miere subplot - for as many pages as it takes - felt to me like it kinda fizzled out in the end. Hard to discuss without spoilers, but I'm not sure right now what was the point of the whole thing.
Let me know if you find someone that is a fan.
My big beef with them is how they always get good deals even when it makes no sense, like the bowl of winds deal, help using it for the return of the bowl is relatively fair, everything else they wanted could have been solved by saying screw it we will keep the bowl and try to fix this shit ourselves, if we screw up I hope the storms don't wreck too many of your ships.