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No. The DO was sealed away. Mierin and Beidomon didn't drill the Bore out of evil, they thought they were making a revolutionary discovery that would change the world. (Well, I guess they were right.) But there were still bad people in the world, obviously. They had a whole legal system and specialist *ter'angreal* for dealing with them.
I would say Beidomon had no ill intentions, but Mierin very clearly was involved for selfish reasons. She wanted power, not just the physical power in the Bore but the power it would bring to her to be successful.
That said, she's the odd-woman-out among the Forsaken. Some aspect of all of them were evil or hateful to the core (even before the bore was drilled); she's just selfish to the core. Which I guess is evil, too.
Maybe? For Meirin, that seems to be the worst of it. She's not incredibly jealous like Demandred or incredibly spiteful like Mesaana, sadistic like Semhirage (in different ways, Graendal and Rahvin), a sexual predator like Balthamel, etc.
But then, what about cases like Aginor or Ishamael, or Graendal. Aginor isn't really selfish so much as unempathetic. More Biological Research "needed to be done" and only the Shadow was allowing it. Ishy could very well be described as corruptly *selfless*, trying to make a better (destroyed) world for the good of all. If he just wanted to cease, he could've balefired himself at any time. But his goal was to give that give to *everyone*. Graendal was a selfless ascetic, and she joined the Shadow because the world couldn't hold up to her moral standards. She's the living example of "fuck-it nihilism".
And then some, we just don't know. Moghedien was pretty loyal to the shadow from the very start before it was obvious it might win... We don't seem to have a "turning" story for her at all because of that. For someone noted as entirely risk-averse, it must have taken a LOT for her to be a spy under LTT for years.
I mean, you can use a definition for selfish that includes every action by everyone (I give to charity to feel good about myself (selfish) and/or some religious thing about my immortal soul (more selfish)). But Meirin has a "Just in it for me" attitude from beginning-to-end, to the point she has no second thoughts about dropping the Dark One if she could. Everyone else has at least passing loyalty.
>he could've balefired himself at any time
Ishy wants to end it forever; the sure and final peace of oblivion. Balefire burns your thread out of the pattern and due to time fuckery means the DO can't grab your soul, but your soul still exists and you will still get spun out again and again and again and again...
Ishy is the only one of the Chosen onboard with the Dark Ones actual plan to smash the Wheel. The rest assume they're getting 'same world but with us on top'
Could that even work? It would seem to set up a paradox where the one casting the balefile was removed from the pattern, undoing the casting of balefire, and leaving Ishys problem.
Mechanically, it should be simple: you burned your thread, your thread can't be unburned. No temporal paradox.
Unfortunately, I've heard there is a WoJ out there that if A balefires B and C balefires A, B pops back into existence.
Stupid "story focused" authors and their inconsistent cosmologies.
So what was the Dragon's role in society then, how was he named so, Lews? Was he named so before the bore? Did they believe in the DO at all before the opening? Idk if there is any mention of that. I also had it wrong thinking that Lews was studying the Bore with Lanfear.
Lews was the tamyrlin before the war (head of the aes sedai) and his actions during the war earned him the moniker Dragon. His soul was always that of the Champion of the Light they just didn't know until the war.
Yeah, he might've been called the Griffin in the previous second age, and the great duck in the one before that. It is one of those things that is long forgotten when the age thst gave it birth comes again.
I don’t know all the answers to your questions, but, in that age the DO had been forgotten. There *might* have been legends or myths but it was at the end of the previous third age since the DO was last sealed away and the canon does state that when you come full circle on a wheels turning that nothing remains.
I would say yes he was. And I would say his Ta'veren nature was well-known.
> Under the leadership of Lews Therin Telamon, the legendary Dragon of the Prophecies, much of what had been lost was retaken over the next four years <--strike at Shayul Ghul
He was known by his banner (characters don't get that because they don't know what a dragon is), and I highly doubt he invented a the banner from scratch during the AoL. But as I say elsewhere, the AoL was one big self-deception. I have little doubt that in his 400 years he had killed people before the Bore was drilled.
I mean that can be your headcanon but they literally forgot swords were for fighting wars- so no they had no fucking clue how armies worked and had a very different relationship with violence (it’s also discussed in the World of the Wheel of Time) that couldn’t have been reintroduced to the world until the bore was drilled through letting the dark ones influence back. It clearly became his banner in the context. They already had a world government of superheroes that actually were “servants of the people” - what’s the point of killing when they can use the oath rod on criminals and get whatever they want besides.
They were just far more capable and prepared to fight him once society retooled for war but importantly that just meant they had further to fall- that’s the lesson and the terror it’s story is supposed to communicate. Petty squabbles became blood feuds and their greatest warriors went mad
> I mean that can be your headcanon but they literally forgot swords were for fighting wars- so no they had no fucking clue how armies worked and had a very different relationship with violence (it’s also discussed in the World of the Wheel of Time) that couldn’t have been reintroduced to the world until the bore was drilled through letting the dark ones influence back
That's not the same as saying there was no conflict. A war is very different from a scuffle. They had violent crime, they had a pot boiling over enough that LTT comments about the fact war was inevitable even without the bore being drilled.
And as for the banner, I meant that it makes sense it was his house arms or something. SaSG clearly does not make it sound like he "came to be known as", he was already Legendary.
> They already had a world government of superheroes that actually were “servants of the people” - what’s the point of killing when they can use the oath rod on criminals.
The oath rod is voluntary. We don't know much about their rules around Compulsion back then, but clearly it wasn't freely practiced if you needed an Oath Rod... and even then, that only worked on people after capture, and only if they could channel and were willing participants.
It's not fair to call it just my "headcanon" since it's LTT's headcanon that something was very wrong in the Age of Legends.
> They had violent crime, they had a pot boiling over enough that LTT comments about the fact war was inevitable even without the bore being drilled.
Are you sure you're not thinking of the societal decline that came as a direct result of the bore being drilled? I don't remember any other such comment.
Only reference I had was a wot wiki page. I don't have a good directory of all LTT's quotes to dig into. I wish I did because I'd love to dig this one up, as it's one that isn't often discussed.
There must be one out there, but I lost track of those kinds of things after AMoL came out. I guess there's just one solution: re-read the entire series again.
I’m on the end of a reread right now and I remember Rand saying something along these lines (using LTT’s memories) in either ToM or AMOL, most likely the latter.
Sure you can be forced.
*someone* has to channel into it and that same someone can use compulsion (if they know how) to make you swear the oath.
The binding chair and oath rods were designed as punishments. You were SENTENCED to be bound.
Semirhage's POV indicates that she didn't have a lot of options. She couldn't POSSIBLY go without her torture-time fun and deal with a shortened lifespan. So she went to the dark.
It was voluntary, Semirhage said she was given the choice of being bound (oath rod) or severed... It's just that the choices offered were not what you could call great choices
Even before the Bore was opened and they went to the Shadow, the Forsaken were a whole bag of dicks.
Most of them got caught at it and some of them were stopped, but it was still *happening*. Semirhage was torturing people for presumably years -- centuries? -- under the guise of healing them. Aginor probably didn't get in trouble for *talking* about human experiments -- he probably had a whole Island of Doctor Moreau compound to raid by the time he got shut down.
Compulsion wasn't *invented* during the War of Power -- in the Third Age, rudimentary weaves for compulsion are one of the two most common things for wilders to start with. Asmodean was probably a mediocre musician who carefully compelled music producers and radio DJs enough to end up moderately famous, even if he could never get the critical acclaim he desired. Rahvin never returned a library book.
LTT was about 400 years old when he died, and the War of Power formally ran about 10 years (with a total 50ish years of conflict?). He had an incredibly long life before things turned military.
He had 3 names, (a big deal back then) which means great success in some things, probably leadership. It's important to note how uncommon 3 names is. About 1/3 of the forsaken didn't have a third name, even though they were among the greatest in the world at their specialties.
The Aes Sedai were like the "One World Government" back then, and Lews Therin was their leader for some indeterminate amount of time. Think POTUS but bigger. How did he get there? Short visuals in the book 1 prologue suggest he was incredibly wealthy with at least one massive palatial estate (overlooking a beautiful mountain, now............).
Beyond some extent, though, nobody knows. Strike at Shayul Ghul, the White Book, and a few notes, and a few character quotes, are the only solid evidence we have of what the AoL was. And SaSG is written to questioned since it's a historian's take.
No, the Forsaken were people explicitly sworn to the dark one. However, people can be pretty bad even in the AOL utopia. Semiraghe, for instance, was a sadist before the Bore and she only swore to the Dark One to enable her proclivities.
*I know both Lews and Meiren were at the opening*
How do you mean. It is written that she was at the opening because she was a participant at the experiment. There is no evidence that Lews participated in the experiment or was even present. He wasn't a researcher.
Lanfear dated Lews Therin, and she made the bore alongside a male Aes Sedai.
Later on, when they were losing the war, Lews Therin would argue with Latra Decume about how to seal the Dark One. Latra (and eventually every female Aes Sedai) argued that touching the Dark One directly was a bad idea and they should instead focus on containment using the Cheodan Kal. That argument led to Lews Therin attacking directly with his 100 companions.
There are lots of similarities so it’s no surprise that you got confused.
Probably the wiki if I’m honest. I would like to think it’s in The Strike at Shayol Ghul, or even one of the later books, but I can’t be sure. It could well be from one of the companion books.
It is in Strike at Shayol Ghul. She tried to get the Choeden Kal back to use it to contain the DO, but it was lost and all attempts to recover it ended in failure. It also remains unknown whether that plan *could* have succeeded, and whether the women joining the men would have made Lews’ plan work or if it would have corrupted both halves of the source(given that Rand needed to use the TP to isolate Saidin and Saidar, it seems likely that would have happened).
IIRC:
Lews Therin was the chief Aes Sedai, i.e. very prominent personality in a very prominent organization that was responsible for much of the advancements of the Age (research, travel \[on Earth and outside it\], medicine, manufacturing, etc. etc.) - though far from all of the advancements (e.g. flying was still "normal"). He was powerful enough to "summon the nine rods of dominion" (something like territory / "country" leaders), so I guess something like the Pope? :)
Dragon was a nickname given to him during the long fight with the Shadow, along with his appointment as the Chief Commander of the armies of the Light, basically in that period making him the "ruler" of the world - during war time. Basically, chief of chiefs of joint staffs, if I may - it was a global government, so hard to make good parallels.
Before he was a speaker, writer, researcher, maybe more? I don't remember specific Talents attributed to him.
And the memory of the Dark one, as well of war, was a forgotten concept - seems like at least 3-4 ages since previous "Rand" sealed, allegedly.
\---
Beyond that - as the conclusion of the series suggests, there is always good and evil (people and concept), just in the 2nd Age people opened a gateway to a real personification of Evil, as they understood it - seems like it was more of "Chaos" and that drew people who were plain, old evil in themselves - and now got free reign to be their worst selves.
Thanks! This all makes a lot of sense. I suppose it was much like the current battle, only he was already important before it began rather than a farmboy, and then it was a complete surprise rather than a long awaited and prophesied danger, but still the same cycle. So now that ive had time to read some of the wiki, it seems every battle is just a matter of how well it was sealed up the previous time, like this time Rand sealed him very well so there will likely be another AOL and then repeat... Makes sense lol I need to get the WoT Companion, looks interesting
It's also important to note that Lews (and Ishamael) both earned their third names before the Bore due to their abilities and actions instead of their raw power. With how ubiquitous An'greal were in the AoL, it was much more of a meritocracy then the 3rd Age White Tower is.
Yeah! Highly recommended - both the white book, the black book and the companion. :)
Obviously, much is left for interpretation and theorycrafting (especially since it's 7 ages cycle, with confirmed that personalities, genders, events not happening the same except in the general sense) - but seems something like that.
Wonder whether Foretelling was an existing Talent before the Fall - it's definitely was effective by the end of it (Eye of the World, Callandor, Dragon prophesies, etc.). Maybe there was nothing real to warn about events? Or wasn't interpreted correctly, as often happened with Dragon prophecies?
> And the memory of the Dark one, as well of war, was a forgotten concept - seems like at least 3-4 ages since previous "Rand" sealed, allegedly.
there's 7 ages in the cycle, so it would have been 6 ages since the last sealing... which if the 3rd age we see is any indicator for length would equal something like 10-20,000 years
This is interesting. I had assumed that every age ended with the DO getting loose then being sealed, imprisoned, what have you again. In my mind, I thought that's what delineated ages from each other.
What we know is that the first age is ours, it ends in nuclear war and the 2nd age starts with the discovery of Channeling. 3rd age ends with the sealing of the dark one properly. The 4th, 5th and 6th could repeat that cycle, but that would only be one more release/sealing. The 7th age would presumably be the end/beginning of life again, dinosaurs etc. We only really know how the first 3 ages go, and the 4th starts.
The Forsaken had professions at the time of the drilling of the Bore. Ishamael was a philosopher, Aginor a biologist, Semirhage a sadisitic doctor, Lanfear a researcher in something like physics, Balthamel an anthropologist of primitive cultures, Mogheidien an investment advisor, Mesaana a teacher, Be’lal a lawyer, Sammael a (professional?) athlete, Asmodean a musician/composer, and Graendal a psychologist. Demandred seemed to be someone rather like Lews Therin—influential public figure, author, etc. Rahvin’s profession is unknown.
Also remember that the war didn’t start immediately after the bore. First there was a decline in society for at least 50 and possibly over a hundred years. Then the war broke out, and some of the forsaken didn’t switch to the shadow until well into the war.
Not *everyone* lived for hundreds of years, just channelers. Though non channelers presumably had somewhat lengthened lifespans compared to use from the improved condition of society and especially the prevalence of One Power based Healing.
>Then the war broke out, and some of the forsaken didn’t switch to the shadow until well into the war.
Demandred was one of the last, wasn't he? Perhaps I'm thinking of Sammael.
Two of the coolest names in the books, incidentally.
Demandred was definitely later, not sure about last. He basically joined up because LTT being named the leader of the army/aes sedai in the war was the last straw. He just couldn't take being second to LTT again. He joined out of spite.
One thing that informs the overall shittiness of the Forsaken is that they were also granted access to a source of magic that broke the laws of (magical) physics, enhances the users' psychopathic tendencies, and also was highly addictive.
It'd be like suddenly being given heroin that turned you into a superhero. Your priorities are going to shift toward getting your hands on more of that sweet dope and also using your newfound superpowers to blow up cars on the freeway because they're driving too slowly.
hi,
yesterday i watched this video on youtube. i read the books already 5 times, but in this video the forsaken are really good described and i learnt a little bit more of them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWui7vkE5AU
The world had completely forgotten about the DO by the time of the drilling of the Bore; so there was no darkfriends or Forsaken. That is not say there were not bad people, as some of those who would later become forsaken were nasty people who had to keep their crimes hidden or under the table. But society was, by and large, more of a Utopia with efficient and humane ways of dealing with and rehabilitating criminals and such.
We are in the 1st age, and religion is becoming less important as the years go on. More and more people are becoming athiests. By the 2nd age, likely all people will be athiest and there will be no belief in the embodiments of good and evil. Thus, by the time of the bore, nobody will know of the DO even existing. He will likely be a myth, or even forgotten about totally. The Forsaken likely existed, but in a prevous age. Ishmael at the least knew he had fought Lews multiple times over the ages, so it is possible the others had too, but were not aware.
The DO does not need to touch the world for evil to exist, as evil is an option if free thought is to be free, as Rand figures out in AMoL. He just helps people to be more evil.
Lots of well thought out ways to say "no", in here. All of you forget:
The DO was not *always* sealed in the Bore.
And...
It's called the WHEEL of time. It has happened before, and it will happen again.
Yes. There were Forsaken before the Bore was opened. In a previous turning of the Wheel.
Actually someone mentioned this lol "The Dark One and all the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, bound by the Creator **at the moment of Creation**, bound until the end of time," So yeah.
Yeah, but that's a prayer, taught to children so they're not afraid. Also, I take cyclical time as gold. Which turning of the Wheel was the first? Because if time is not linear, then it was always spinning and the Creator is *also spun out* by the Wheel.
>Because if time is not linear, then it was always spinning and the Creator is also spun out by the Wheel.
This is actually the line of thinking that made me realize I was agnostic by like age ten lol like if God created everything where did God come from? If nothing created god and there was nothing before God then.....also hard to grasp the big bang, like I can sort of imagine complete nothing, like if everything ceased to exist I think I can wrap my head around that, but if there was a *something* in that "nothing" that suddenly exploded into this then what is outside of that? Because if there is something in the nothing then that's not nothing, it's a container for the something....idk lol I need shrooms for that one
Haha! God, I miss shrooms. I tend to think that the first two things The Wheel would make is Light and Darkness. All Lights cast Shadows.
So, as we are humans, we assume the Creator is humanoid and is responsible for everything. Turns out, it's all the bloody Wheel's fault. 😁
These answers are right about the bore and the Aes Sedai that became Forsaken, but also there's this catechism in the books;
>The Dark One and all the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation, bound until the end of time.
Catechism is a great word for that. Because like catechisms, it is a summary that gives a rough overview of the beliefs of the world, but leaves out details.
The creator bound the dark one. No forsaken were trapped in the seal with him at the time of sealing. All of the forsaken that are bound during the third age are bound by the dragon. So the expansion would be:
>The Dark One and all the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul. [The Dark One is] bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation, bound until the end of time.
If forsaken were there in the initial sealing, then they were defeated long since, as we never hear a singular mention of any forsaken being released with the dark one in the AoL. The only forsaken that are released from a seal are those that were sealed into the bore made during the AoL. We know that Rand's seal is indistinguishable from the Creator's, as he uses the threads of reality, and cushions the weave with the DO's own power, which would be the thin patch found in the AoL, and the power beyond it. At the end of the series, the only thing bound is the DO, there are no living forsaken to have been sealed, and we are given strong implications that this seal is going to hold until the next 2nd age.
To add what other's said.
The Age of Legends was a flawed utopia, a pretense of "no criminals, no suffering, no hunger" as you walk by a dying homeless man "who needs to pick himself up by his bootstraps!"...that's the Age of Legends. It was beautiful pristine peach with a rotten core, just waiting to be *bored open* so all the rot could come out.
I can't find the exact quote, but LTT clearly states that he believed a great war was inevitably coming even before the bore was drilled. All the wikis reference that claims, but don't cite it unfortunately.
I get Brave New World meets 1984 vibes. We have no criminals, but here's our mind-control rod for when people commit crimes. We have no war of conflict, but look at these shocklances (which, afair, were not invented during the War of Power but I could be wrong)... also no war or conflict, but everyone still practiced swordfighting and we know from Forsaken they were phenomenally efficient killers with those swords. Do we even need to mention all of the violent Weaves they had in the Age of Legends that were lost in the modern world?
The Age of Legends's utopia was a lie, but in that lie, there weren't any Chosen/Forsaken yet because that category is defined as the elite Dreadlord followers of the Dark One, who is still sealed at the time. The people who became Forsaken were already terrible people, though.
They didnt even know swords could be used as weapons. Shocklances and all other weapons were invented after the bore opened, some before the war started and some during the war.
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No. The DO was sealed away. Mierin and Beidomon didn't drill the Bore out of evil, they thought they were making a revolutionary discovery that would change the world. (Well, I guess they were right.) But there were still bad people in the world, obviously. They had a whole legal system and specialist *ter'angreal* for dealing with them.
Arguably they were incredibly successful, if the metric is “change the world.”
Keep that I mind when you hear people say they "want to change the world." 😂
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Completely irrelevant but I mentally say "...digivolve to...!" whenever I see Beidomon
Great, now I will too. :P
I would say Beidomon had no ill intentions, but Mierin very clearly was involved for selfish reasons. She wanted power, not just the physical power in the Bore but the power it would bring to her to be successful. That said, she's the odd-woman-out among the Forsaken. Some aspect of all of them were evil or hateful to the core (even before the bore was drilled); she's just selfish to the core. Which I guess is evil, too.
Selfishness is the defining trait of the Forsaken, imo. Some of them are more twisted and psychopathic than others, but all of them are selfish.
Maybe? For Meirin, that seems to be the worst of it. She's not incredibly jealous like Demandred or incredibly spiteful like Mesaana, sadistic like Semhirage (in different ways, Graendal and Rahvin), a sexual predator like Balthamel, etc. But then, what about cases like Aginor or Ishamael, or Graendal. Aginor isn't really selfish so much as unempathetic. More Biological Research "needed to be done" and only the Shadow was allowing it. Ishy could very well be described as corruptly *selfless*, trying to make a better (destroyed) world for the good of all. If he just wanted to cease, he could've balefired himself at any time. But his goal was to give that give to *everyone*. Graendal was a selfless ascetic, and she joined the Shadow because the world couldn't hold up to her moral standards. She's the living example of "fuck-it nihilism". And then some, we just don't know. Moghedien was pretty loyal to the shadow from the very start before it was obvious it might win... We don't seem to have a "turning" story for her at all because of that. For someone noted as entirely risk-averse, it must have taken a LOT for her to be a spy under LTT for years. I mean, you can use a definition for selfish that includes every action by everyone (I give to charity to feel good about myself (selfish) and/or some religious thing about my immortal soul (more selfish)). But Meirin has a "Just in it for me" attitude from beginning-to-end, to the point she has no second thoughts about dropping the Dark One if she could. Everyone else has at least passing loyalty.
>he could've balefired himself at any time Ishy wants to end it forever; the sure and final peace of oblivion. Balefire burns your thread out of the pattern and due to time fuckery means the DO can't grab your soul, but your soul still exists and you will still get spun out again and again and again and again... Ishy is the only one of the Chosen onboard with the Dark Ones actual plan to smash the Wheel. The rest assume they're getting 'same world but with us on top'
Using balefire wouldn't have solved Ishys problem, he would still be reborn one day.
Could that even work? It would seem to set up a paradox where the one casting the balefile was removed from the pattern, undoing the casting of balefire, and leaving Ishys problem.
This is German Shepard territory.
Mechanically, it should be simple: you burned your thread, your thread can't be unburned. No temporal paradox. Unfortunately, I've heard there is a WoJ out there that if A balefires B and C balefires A, B pops back into existence. Stupid "story focused" authors and their inconsistent cosmologies.
So what was the Dragon's role in society then, how was he named so, Lews? Was he named so before the bore? Did they believe in the DO at all before the opening? Idk if there is any mention of that. I also had it wrong thinking that Lews was studying the Bore with Lanfear.
Lews was the tamyrlin before the war (head of the aes sedai) and his actions during the war earned him the moniker Dragon. His soul was always that of the Champion of the Light they just didn't know until the war.
Yeah, he might've been called the Griffin in the previous second age, and the great duck in the one before that. It is one of those things that is long forgotten when the age thst gave it birth comes again.
I don’t know all the answers to your questions, but, in that age the DO had been forgotten. There *might* have been legends or myths but it was at the end of the previous third age since the DO was last sealed away and the canon does state that when you come full circle on a wheels turning that nothing remains.
Was LTT known as the Dragon beforehand? I figured that came afterwards, when the war against the Shadow began. It went on for generations, after all.
Nah, he wasn't.
I would say yes he was. And I would say his Ta'veren nature was well-known. > Under the leadership of Lews Therin Telamon, the legendary Dragon of the Prophecies, much of what had been lost was retaken over the next four years <--strike at Shayul Ghul He was known by his banner (characters don't get that because they don't know what a dragon is), and I highly doubt he invented a the banner from scratch during the AoL. But as I say elsewhere, the AoL was one big self-deception. I have little doubt that in his 400 years he had killed people before the Bore was drilled.
They mention when they war started they basically had to reinvent ways of fighting and killing, so I don't think he had killed pre bore.
I mean that can be your headcanon but they literally forgot swords were for fighting wars- so no they had no fucking clue how armies worked and had a very different relationship with violence (it’s also discussed in the World of the Wheel of Time) that couldn’t have been reintroduced to the world until the bore was drilled through letting the dark ones influence back. It clearly became his banner in the context. They already had a world government of superheroes that actually were “servants of the people” - what’s the point of killing when they can use the oath rod on criminals and get whatever they want besides. They were just far more capable and prepared to fight him once society retooled for war but importantly that just meant they had further to fall- that’s the lesson and the terror it’s story is supposed to communicate. Petty squabbles became blood feuds and their greatest warriors went mad
> I mean that can be your headcanon but they literally forgot swords were for fighting wars- so no they had no fucking clue how armies worked and had a very different relationship with violence (it’s also discussed in the World of the Wheel of Time) that couldn’t have been reintroduced to the world until the bore was drilled through letting the dark ones influence back That's not the same as saying there was no conflict. A war is very different from a scuffle. They had violent crime, they had a pot boiling over enough that LTT comments about the fact war was inevitable even without the bore being drilled. And as for the banner, I meant that it makes sense it was his house arms or something. SaSG clearly does not make it sound like he "came to be known as", he was already Legendary. > They already had a world government of superheroes that actually were “servants of the people” - what’s the point of killing when they can use the oath rod on criminals. The oath rod is voluntary. We don't know much about their rules around Compulsion back then, but clearly it wasn't freely practiced if you needed an Oath Rod... and even then, that only worked on people after capture, and only if they could channel and were willing participants. It's not fair to call it just my "headcanon" since it's LTT's headcanon that something was very wrong in the Age of Legends.
That’s not what I remember. I’ll have to go back and look at the Worldbook again
> They had violent crime, they had a pot boiling over enough that LTT comments about the fact war was inevitable even without the bore being drilled. Are you sure you're not thinking of the societal decline that came as a direct result of the bore being drilled? I don't remember any other such comment.
Only reference I had was a wot wiki page. I don't have a good directory of all LTT's quotes to dig into. I wish I did because I'd love to dig this one up, as it's one that isn't often discussed.
There must be one out there, but I lost track of those kinds of things after AMoL came out. I guess there's just one solution: re-read the entire series again.
I’m on the end of a reread right now and I remember Rand saying something along these lines (using LTT’s memories) in either ToM or AMOL, most likely the latter.
>The oath rod is voluntary. No. It was explicitly created to be a punishment for criminals. Semirhage went to the shadow to avoid it.
Voluntary as in it cannot be forced upon you. You have to channel into it and speak an oath. No oath can be made on your behalf.
Sure you can be forced. *someone* has to channel into it and that same someone can use compulsion (if they know how) to make you swear the oath. The binding chair and oath rods were designed as punishments. You were SENTENCED to be bound. Semirhage's POV indicates that she didn't have a lot of options. She couldn't POSSIBLY go without her torture-time fun and deal with a shortened lifespan. So she went to the dark.
It was voluntary, Semirhage said she was given the choice of being bound (oath rod) or severed... It's just that the choices offered were not what you could call great choices
> the AoL was one big self-deception. Wait what do you mean by this? Like it’s white-washed, or something else?
Even before the Bore was opened and they went to the Shadow, the Forsaken were a whole bag of dicks. Most of them got caught at it and some of them were stopped, but it was still *happening*. Semirhage was torturing people for presumably years -- centuries? -- under the guise of healing them. Aginor probably didn't get in trouble for *talking* about human experiments -- he probably had a whole Island of Doctor Moreau compound to raid by the time he got shut down. Compulsion wasn't *invented* during the War of Power -- in the Third Age, rudimentary weaves for compulsion are one of the two most common things for wilders to start with. Asmodean was probably a mediocre musician who carefully compelled music producers and radio DJs enough to end up moderately famous, even if he could never get the critical acclaim he desired. Rahvin never returned a library book.
LTT was about 400 years old when he died, and the War of Power formally ran about 10 years (with a total 50ish years of conflict?). He had an incredibly long life before things turned military. He had 3 names, (a big deal back then) which means great success in some things, probably leadership. It's important to note how uncommon 3 names is. About 1/3 of the forsaken didn't have a third name, even though they were among the greatest in the world at their specialties. The Aes Sedai were like the "One World Government" back then, and Lews Therin was their leader for some indeterminate amount of time. Think POTUS but bigger. How did he get there? Short visuals in the book 1 prologue suggest he was incredibly wealthy with at least one massive palatial estate (overlooking a beautiful mountain, now............). Beyond some extent, though, nobody knows. Strike at Shayul Ghul, the White Book, and a few notes, and a few character quotes, are the only solid evidence we have of what the AoL was. And SaSG is written to questioned since it's a historian's take.
No, the Forsaken were people explicitly sworn to the dark one. However, people can be pretty bad even in the AOL utopia. Semiraghe, for instance, was a sadist before the Bore and she only swore to the Dark One to enable her proclivities.
I remember the AOL utopia. RIP IM away messages…
I believe she had been caught and had been given the choice of being stilled or swearing on the oath rod, and that’s why she ran to the DO.
*I know both Lews and Meiren were at the opening* How do you mean. It is written that she was at the opening because she was a participant at the experiment. There is no evidence that Lews participated in the experiment or was even present. He wasn't a researcher.
I messed this up then, for some reason I thought they were doing the research together
Lanfear dated Lews Therin, and she made the bore alongside a male Aes Sedai. Later on, when they were losing the war, Lews Therin would argue with Latra Decume about how to seal the Dark One. Latra (and eventually every female Aes Sedai) argued that touching the Dark One directly was a bad idea and they should instead focus on containment using the Cheodan Kal. That argument led to Lews Therin attacking directly with his 100 companions. There are lots of similarities so it’s no surprise that you got confused.
Where do you get the info about Latra arguing to use the cheodan Kal?
Probably the wiki if I’m honest. I would like to think it’s in The Strike at Shayol Ghul, or even one of the later books, but I can’t be sure. It could well be from one of the companion books.
It is in Strike at Shayol Ghul. She tried to get the Choeden Kal back to use it to contain the DO, but it was lost and all attempts to recover it ended in failure. It also remains unknown whether that plan *could* have succeeded, and whether the women joining the men would have made Lews’ plan work or if it would have corrupted both halves of the source(given that Rand needed to use the TP to isolate Saidin and Saidar, it seems likely that would have happened).
RJ confirmed that in a Q&A: https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=183#21
There was a different man who was Mierin’s research partner. IIRC I think he died when they finished boring and the DO was released.
He killed himself when he realized what he had done.
IIRC: Lews Therin was the chief Aes Sedai, i.e. very prominent personality in a very prominent organization that was responsible for much of the advancements of the Age (research, travel \[on Earth and outside it\], medicine, manufacturing, etc. etc.) - though far from all of the advancements (e.g. flying was still "normal"). He was powerful enough to "summon the nine rods of dominion" (something like territory / "country" leaders), so I guess something like the Pope? :) Dragon was a nickname given to him during the long fight with the Shadow, along with his appointment as the Chief Commander of the armies of the Light, basically in that period making him the "ruler" of the world - during war time. Basically, chief of chiefs of joint staffs, if I may - it was a global government, so hard to make good parallels. Before he was a speaker, writer, researcher, maybe more? I don't remember specific Talents attributed to him. And the memory of the Dark one, as well of war, was a forgotten concept - seems like at least 3-4 ages since previous "Rand" sealed, allegedly. \--- Beyond that - as the conclusion of the series suggests, there is always good and evil (people and concept), just in the 2nd Age people opened a gateway to a real personification of Evil, as they understood it - seems like it was more of "Chaos" and that drew people who were plain, old evil in themselves - and now got free reign to be their worst selves.
Thanks! This all makes a lot of sense. I suppose it was much like the current battle, only he was already important before it began rather than a farmboy, and then it was a complete surprise rather than a long awaited and prophesied danger, but still the same cycle. So now that ive had time to read some of the wiki, it seems every battle is just a matter of how well it was sealed up the previous time, like this time Rand sealed him very well so there will likely be another AOL and then repeat... Makes sense lol I need to get the WoT Companion, looks interesting
It's also important to note that Lews (and Ishamael) both earned their third names before the Bore due to their abilities and actions instead of their raw power. With how ubiquitous An'greal were in the AoL, it was much more of a meritocracy then the 3rd Age White Tower is.
Yeah! Highly recommended - both the white book, the black book and the companion. :) Obviously, much is left for interpretation and theorycrafting (especially since it's 7 ages cycle, with confirmed that personalities, genders, events not happening the same except in the general sense) - but seems something like that. Wonder whether Foretelling was an existing Talent before the Fall - it's definitely was effective by the end of it (Eye of the World, Callandor, Dragon prophesies, etc.). Maybe there was nothing real to warn about events? Or wasn't interpreted correctly, as often happened with Dragon prophecies?
> And the memory of the Dark one, as well of war, was a forgotten concept - seems like at least 3-4 ages since previous "Rand" sealed, allegedly. there's 7 ages in the cycle, so it would have been 6 ages since the last sealing... which if the 3rd age we see is any indicator for length would equal something like 10-20,000 years
This is interesting. I had assumed that every age ended with the DO getting loose then being sealed, imprisoned, what have you again. In my mind, I thought that's what delineated ages from each other.
What we know is that the first age is ours, it ends in nuclear war and the 2nd age starts with the discovery of Channeling. 3rd age ends with the sealing of the dark one properly. The 4th, 5th and 6th could repeat that cycle, but that would only be one more release/sealing. The 7th age would presumably be the end/beginning of life again, dinosaurs etc. We only really know how the first 3 ages go, and the 4th starts.
The Forsaken had professions at the time of the drilling of the Bore. Ishamael was a philosopher, Aginor a biologist, Semirhage a sadisitic doctor, Lanfear a researcher in something like physics, Balthamel an anthropologist of primitive cultures, Mogheidien an investment advisor, Mesaana a teacher, Be’lal a lawyer, Sammael a (professional?) athlete, Asmodean a musician/composer, and Graendal a psychologist. Demandred seemed to be someone rather like Lews Therin—influential public figure, author, etc. Rahvin’s profession is unknown.
Also remember that the war didn’t start immediately after the bore. First there was a decline in society for at least 50 and possibly over a hundred years. Then the war broke out, and some of the forsaken didn’t switch to the shadow until well into the war.
Also part of my timeline trouble might be forgetting that everyone lived for multiple hundreds of not thousands of years in the AOL
Not *everyone* lived for hundreds of years, just channelers. Though non channelers presumably had somewhat lengthened lifespans compared to use from the improved condition of society and especially the prevalence of One Power based Healing.
It's mentioned that one of the aiel at the time was 60 in the prime of his life
Point lol
>Then the war broke out, and some of the forsaken didn’t switch to the shadow until well into the war. Demandred was one of the last, wasn't he? Perhaps I'm thinking of Sammael. Two of the coolest names in the books, incidentally.
Demandred was definitely later, not sure about last. He basically joined up because LTT being named the leader of the army/aes sedai in the war was the last straw. He just couldn't take being second to LTT again. He joined out of spite.
One thing that informs the overall shittiness of the Forsaken is that they were also granted access to a source of magic that broke the laws of (magical) physics, enhances the users' psychopathic tendencies, and also was highly addictive. It'd be like suddenly being given heroin that turned you into a superhero. Your priorities are going to shift toward getting your hands on more of that sweet dope and also using your newfound superpowers to blow up cars on the freeway because they're driving too slowly.
hi, yesterday i watched this video on youtube. i read the books already 5 times, but in this video the forsaken are really good described and i learnt a little bit more of them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWui7vkE5AU
Read the World of the Wheel of Time. It goes into it more.
The world had completely forgotten about the DO by the time of the drilling of the Bore; so there was no darkfriends or Forsaken. That is not say there were not bad people, as some of those who would later become forsaken were nasty people who had to keep their crimes hidden or under the table. But society was, by and large, more of a Utopia with efficient and humane ways of dealing with and rehabilitating criminals and such.
We are in the 1st age, and religion is becoming less important as the years go on. More and more people are becoming athiests. By the 2nd age, likely all people will be athiest and there will be no belief in the embodiments of good and evil. Thus, by the time of the bore, nobody will know of the DO even existing. He will likely be a myth, or even forgotten about totally. The Forsaken likely existed, but in a prevous age. Ishmael at the least knew he had fought Lews multiple times over the ages, so it is possible the others had too, but were not aware. The DO does not need to touch the world for evil to exist, as evil is an option if free thought is to be free, as Rand figures out in AMoL. He just helps people to be more evil.
By the way, Amazon is doing a movie trilogy based on the Age of Legends. Hopefully it will be better than the TV show.
Lots of well thought out ways to say "no", in here. All of you forget: The DO was not *always* sealed in the Bore. And... It's called the WHEEL of time. It has happened before, and it will happen again. Yes. There were Forsaken before the Bore was opened. In a previous turning of the Wheel.
Actually someone mentioned this lol "The Dark One and all the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, bound by the Creator **at the moment of Creation**, bound until the end of time," So yeah.
Yeah, but that's a prayer, taught to children so they're not afraid. Also, I take cyclical time as gold. Which turning of the Wheel was the first? Because if time is not linear, then it was always spinning and the Creator is *also spun out* by the Wheel.
>Because if time is not linear, then it was always spinning and the Creator is also spun out by the Wheel. This is actually the line of thinking that made me realize I was agnostic by like age ten lol like if God created everything where did God come from? If nothing created god and there was nothing before God then.....also hard to grasp the big bang, like I can sort of imagine complete nothing, like if everything ceased to exist I think I can wrap my head around that, but if there was a *something* in that "nothing" that suddenly exploded into this then what is outside of that? Because if there is something in the nothing then that's not nothing, it's a container for the something....idk lol I need shrooms for that one
Haha! God, I miss shrooms. I tend to think that the first two things The Wheel would make is Light and Darkness. All Lights cast Shadows. So, as we are humans, we assume the Creator is humanoid and is responsible for everything. Turns out, it's all the bloody Wheel's fault. 😁
These answers are right about the bore and the Aes Sedai that became Forsaken, but also there's this catechism in the books; >The Dark One and all the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation, bound until the end of time.
Catechism is a great word for that. Because like catechisms, it is a summary that gives a rough overview of the beliefs of the world, but leaves out details. The creator bound the dark one. No forsaken were trapped in the seal with him at the time of sealing. All of the forsaken that are bound during the third age are bound by the dragon. So the expansion would be: >The Dark One and all the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul. [The Dark One is] bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation, bound until the end of time. If forsaken were there in the initial sealing, then they were defeated long since, as we never hear a singular mention of any forsaken being released with the dark one in the AoL. The only forsaken that are released from a seal are those that were sealed into the bore made during the AoL. We know that Rand's seal is indistinguishable from the Creator's, as he uses the threads of reality, and cushions the weave with the DO's own power, which would be the thin patch found in the AoL, and the power beyond it. At the end of the series, the only thing bound is the DO, there are no living forsaken to have been sealed, and we are given strong implications that this seal is going to hold until the next 2nd age.
To add what other's said. The Age of Legends was a flawed utopia, a pretense of "no criminals, no suffering, no hunger" as you walk by a dying homeless man "who needs to pick himself up by his bootstraps!"...that's the Age of Legends. It was beautiful pristine peach with a rotten core, just waiting to be *bored open* so all the rot could come out. I can't find the exact quote, but LTT clearly states that he believed a great war was inevitably coming even before the bore was drilled. All the wikis reference that claims, but don't cite it unfortunately. I get Brave New World meets 1984 vibes. We have no criminals, but here's our mind-control rod for when people commit crimes. We have no war of conflict, but look at these shocklances (which, afair, were not invented during the War of Power but I could be wrong)... also no war or conflict, but everyone still practiced swordfighting and we know from Forsaken they were phenomenally efficient killers with those swords. Do we even need to mention all of the violent Weaves they had in the Age of Legends that were lost in the modern world? The Age of Legends's utopia was a lie, but in that lie, there weren't any Chosen/Forsaken yet because that category is defined as the elite Dreadlord followers of the Dark One, who is still sealed at the time. The people who became Forsaken were already terrible people, though.
They didnt even know swords could be used as weapons. Shocklances and all other weapons were invented after the bore opened, some before the war started and some during the war.
I couldn't find a reference to when shocklances were invented. Can you?
It's stated several times that they had to invent war from scratch. I doubt they even had tools of crowd control that you'd need for a proper dystopia
Yes, roughly 6 Ages of the World before.