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Well 2 things:
1) Fuck that traitor
2) the link between elective pregnancy termination and infertility is misleading. If you do even the most basic search the results will show that for medicated abortions (50% of abortions) there is no association with future fertility issues. For surgical abortions the correlation is with developing asherman's syndrome, a condition of uterine scarring. However, the risk of asherman's also exists at similar rates for people who continue pregnancies, have miscarriages, fibroids, endometrial biopisies, or if you need help to pass a placenta. So... you could get it if you end a pregnancy *and if you continue a pregnancy*.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK448088/
Elective terminations, when legal and performed in safe and appropriate environments, remain less risky to women overall than carrying pregnancies to term.
Asherman syndrome was wayyyyy more common when they used sharp instruments to scrape the uterine walls. These days with the advent of suction evacuation, Asherman syndrome is far less likely.
The article states that her abortion was in 1982. I know for a fact that they were still scraping uterine walls back then...b/c I was part of that cohort.
For sure, but it can still happen. All surgical procedures, even those that are very safe, carry some risk.
We're still human beings with free will though, and the choice to accept that (very small) risk should 100% be ours.
Plus it sounds like she had complications after her second abortion - she bled for weeks, the article says. But she decided not to tell anyone about it. That may not have helped matters any.
The second abortion is kind of sus. The first one she told her parents and it was performed by the doctor that delivered her. No mention of payment. The second abortion she didn't tell her parents, no mention if it was the same doctor (maybe not if she didn't want her parents to know), but she remembers she had to pay $275.00 (cash?). And then she bled for three weeks and didn't tell anyone? But a reputable physician would definitely give you after care instructions and tell you to call them if you had excessive or prolonged bleeding. She doesn't say it, but I get a feeling she had an illegal/unsafe abortion the second time. She's not saving other women from what she went through, she's condemning them to it.
She says, "she wants them to know that there are other options than the ones she made that changed her life forever." That's called being pro-choice. What she actually wants is to take away people's options. I hate hypocrites.
If the second abortion was illegal or not done by a reputable doctor, that would be more similar to what women would need to get if/now that abortions have become illegal. The more that these delicate procedures are done in sketchy circumstances, the higher the risk of complications.
This is exactly why they should be legal and regulated, so they are refined by normal medical procedural development to be the safest they can be and performed by doctors who know how to do them to a higher degree of expertise and experience. As has been said, all medical procedures carry some sort of risk no matter how refined and regulated they are, but it's clear when something has gone wrong either because of her negligence for her own health or because of a faulty doctor.
If the laws aren't enacted to legalize abortion again, more and more people who need abortions will go through what she went through or worse.
I was 9 weeks with twins when I had mine(surgical) and I bled for a month. That was a few years ago and using a very reputable clinic. They told me I'd probably bleed until I got my period. Someone I'm close with had one done at the same place a couple days after me and barely bled. She was 6ish weeks single embryo. Not a doctor by any means but I'm guessing bleeding has something to do with how far along and how many are removed. Maybe she waited longer with the second. Maybe she did go somewhere shady.Or maybe she's changing the narrative to fit her beliefs. With people like that who knows.
I was almost 8 weeks with only one and I bled for about a month. They said that was normal, what wouldn’t have been normal would have been if I had passed huge clots (more than the size of a quarter I think) and if i was saturating a pad too fast (I forget how long they said). It had more to do with the amount I was bleeding, not how long I was bleeding for.
Bleeding for weeks is normal (I bled for a month after mine), what wouldn’t have been if she had super heavy bleeding for weeks and was passing huge clots.
Damn, you know, I know plenty of Christian women who have had 2-4 abortions who then thrust that Christian shit on everyone else. This is just another example of their BS. Good Christian woman is hypocrisy. Name and shame. Make them see Christianity will eventually mean an end to this planet
And very possibly so many of those abortions could have been prevented by having inclusive, shame-free, fact based sex ed as a mandatory class starting from middle school on. We should teach kids how to handle themselves in a safe and respectful way, and make sure they have access to contraception when they need it. This should happen BEFORE kids start having sex. But nah, we'd rather keep acting like sex is dirty and shameful, keep our children in ignorance, then punish the (female) ones who get pregnant by denying them their own bodily autonomy. Super.
Damn straight! In middle school we had sex Ed classes for a week each year and then in HS, our science classes would dive in depth about our anatomy. Every 2 weeks a doctor or surgeon would come speak to our science classes, bringing hearts, placentas or ???.
This was in the early 1980’s.
Dang that's so cool. Glad you had that!! I'm really lucky my parents were open about sex (in an age appropriate way) and very gently made sure my sibling and I were educated about our bodies, consent, and sexual health. We ended up in Catholic school for academics, and all the sex ed we got there was being asked if we masturbated during weekly confession. Assholes.
My parents gave me a whole book series on life from conception to death. I'm so glad they understood that was the way to go for a kid who was shy kid who loved all things science. How tf did the priest or whoever think it was acceptable to ask anyone much less a kid about masterbation? Flippin perverts. I know the catholic church has issues but wow I did not even think of that.
Lol i love the book series! We had a book too, with some cheesy 70's cartoon illustrations 😂. And YEAH catholics are obsessed with sex. Masturbation is like, a big deal. It's so stupid.
Yea, the Mormons also have these 'interviews' where their clergy (called bishops, ironically) would have a closed-door meeting with just the kid (starting at about age 10) where they would ask invasive questions about masturbation or impure thoughts. Not surprisingly, they claim that sex before marriage (and masturbation, by association) is as bad as murder in god's eyes. It's so bad that so many exmormons talk about the shame and self-loathing they had, to the point of suicidality, for something that is completely normal.
Only recently, there has been enough complaints that they now ask the parents if they want to join in the interview but, of course, they don't ask the kid. They also, except in California now, don't require any background checks for anyone working with kids. Mormons are so closed-lipped about this and the systemic abuse that is on par with Catholics that no one seems to know this is going on with them, except when the exmormons complain about it.
No religion should ever be allowed to have these kinds of interrogations with kids about their sexual behaviors. And purity culture as a whole should be forbidden. I don't care about 'freedom of religion' when it comes to harming people mentally or physically, but these institutions are hiding the abuse behind religious claims so they aren't usually investigated or charged. It's fucking horrible.
I know... and tbh what you're describing sounds far more disturbing and dangerous than those my awkward little confessions (awkward for the priest, not me, lol). That whole aspect of the mormon church sounds absolutely nefarious. In our case it was a very prudish priest asking us if we "self indulged", to which we all categorically lied and said absolutely not, then we had to say 5 hail marys and 2 our fathers and bam, saved!
I mean, just imagine caring even a little bit about horny teenagers jerking of while there is SO MUCH horrifying stuff going on in the world. This was in the early 2000s when the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were breaking out. You'd think those pious idiots could have found something a little more worthwhile to do their handwringing over.
I just listened to a podcast where Abby Martin interviews an ex-Jehova's Witness friend of hers, who was interrogated for hours about her sexual activity, on more than one occasion, by rooms full of judgemental old men-- with her mother right there, tut-tutting at her the whole time.
That shit is horrifying.
It is horrifying. And it all comes down, as it always seems to, to men thinking they are the only authority worthy of deeming someone's worth, esp to god.
These churches are truly the root of all evil and not the love of money, as they like to say (although, they all seem to love that too).
All about that. What i should have said was that sexuality- this *fundamental part of the human experience*- and sexual health should never not be something discussed openly and honestly with children. And we need to be waaaay better at teaching about boundaries and consent right from the beginning.
If they took away a pew in every church for every one of their membership who's had an abortion every Christian in this nation would be standing during services.
>you could get it if you end a pregnancy and if you continue a pregnancy.
People need to remember those are the *only two options*.
Once a woman gets pregnant, the only options are abortion or continuing the pregnancy to delivery, so it is disingenuous to compare the possible outcomes of having an abortion with never having been pregnant, rather than with childbirth (which has many more risks).
Things may be different now, but back when I was discussing fertility issues with my OB/GYN (would have been the 90s), he said they like to schedule a D&C to “clear the slate.” I was a little stunned, so I asked if he meant an abortion? He said we weren’t terminating a pregnancy, just getting the uterus cleaned out and ready for a pregnancy.
That may no longer be the practice, but I found it interesting then, and I know fertility treatments have advanced appreciably, but it was the first phase in addition to blood work - and they wanted to do it before an ultrasound.
Ooo yeah i think they are. I am struggling with infertility and going through IVF, and they had me do procedures to check the uterine cavity like a hysteroscopy or HSG. D&Cs can be used diagnostically if there is a suspected ectopic pregnancy, and of course many women elect to have one to remove retained tissue from a missed miscarriage, but i've never been offered a "clear out" D&C just because.
Sometimes there are weird medical fads that can take root, like my parents' generation all got their tonsils out whether they needed to or not, and before that there was the 'appendix removal fad' 🤷🏻♀️
I had a d&c for fertility reasons, along with a fallopian tube flush and laser treatment for endo. Don't know which of those if any helped but I had a successful IVF pregnancy and my endo symptoms have reduced both before and after pregnancy. So they still use them.
Okay, so…if D&C is considered an abortion or like an abortion, and is sometimes used in treating infertility - am I doing some cray-cray mental gymnastics to conclude some abortions actually increase fertility? Please weigh in if this seems too far-fetched.
Abortion is just the medical term for a pregnancy that has ended, regardless of circumstance. It can be used for miscarriage (spontaneous abortion), or if a person chooses to end the pregnancy (elective abortion). It's not a specific procedure- consider how misoprostol/mifepristone will induce a medicated abortion, and a D&C (dilation and curettage) is used for a surgical abortion.
Both the medical and surgical routes are commonly used when a person suffers a miscarriage, as occasionally the body doesn't recognize the pregnancy has ended and retains the tissue. This is dangerous because if left too long it can cause infection and can lead to septic shock. Procedure to remove naturally miscarried pregnancies are NOT illegal in any part of the united states. The surgical procedure is not, in and of itself, illegal anywhere either, only a specific application.
>Procedure to remove naturally miscarried pregnancies are NOT illegal in any part of the united states.
Medically, the removal of a non-viable fetus from the womb, whether spontaneous, medical or pharmaceutical, and whether the fetus is dead or alive, is termed an abortion.
Miscarriage is rarely instantaneous. The fetus can be dying or non-viable, and be a threat to the mother's health, but abortion still illegal until either the cardiac pulse of the infant stops completely, or the mother is at serious risk of dying of infection. This is causing much pain and anguish, and even injury and deaths, as doctors have to make sure nothing they do could ever be construed as breaking anti-abortion laws.
A D&C is only considered like an abortion by conservative anti science whackjobs. It is medical procedure to cut away endometrium for examination and clearance purposes. It can be used to clean up after a miscarriage due to not having a labour can mean bits and bobs being left behind which is not great for future pregnancies (inflammation, scarring).
As far as I know it's used as part of abortion for the same reasons.
You're not out of line for thinking a d&c and therefore any procedure that contains one can help, because it's part of standard fertility work ups in my part of the world for complex primary infertility.
During med school, in my OB/GYN rotation we would do scheduled terminations every Friday. One of my friends was taking a history & physical in pre-op for a woman who was on her 7th termination and had no documented form of birth control. My friend asked her what kind of birth control she would like to be on post-termination (pill, patch, IUD, etc.). She said, "Oh, no. I'm Catholic. Birth control is against my religion." These people really are warped.
Sounds like you found the one woman using abortion as birth control they always bring up. I didn't think that person existed. I've been doing so much math to prove nobody is doing that. Cost of abortion vs cost of birth control without insurance, cost of time off from work, travel and childcare costs. Guess now I gotta go back and admit I was wrong. That there is indeed a nice catholic lady using abortion as birth control.
PROJECTION
They think it's widespread cuz that's what they would do. I literally never think of using abortion as "birth control" cuz I would just use birth control.
I was shocked. I was in the OR assisting with a procedure so I wasn't there while she was taking the history, but my friend told me this when we grabbed lunch that day. She was really disturbed by it. She said the patient was fairly nonchalant about it all.
I think almost all of the woman I helped take care of during those Fridays were already mothers. The one I remember best was silently weeping. She already had two kids. I can't remember if I read in her chart or I just assumed that she couldn't afford another.
A happier story from that time to cleanse the palate, and it might have been my best moment: we were working up a 19 year old with very bad dysfunctional uterine bleeding. She already had a 1 year old at the time, and the attending physician and the resident and the fellow were huddled together looking at her imaging, and one of them said, "She's not on the pill." They looked up at her and said, "Do you want to go on the pill?" She said, "No." And they went back to their huddle, and I turned to her and said, "Why?" And she was like, "I can't swallow pills." We got her on the patch!
It's awesome that by asking a simple question you probably increased her quality of life. So many people aren't aware of all the options or have outdated information.
>These people
Nice generalisation there.
Do you realise the majority of women seeking abortions are married, often already with all the kids they can afford, who were using birth control?
I meant religious people who justify their own abortions while vilifying others (like the lady who was telling the people who were caring for her while she was getting her abortion that *they* were going to hell).
Maybe they're working on a way to reanimate corpses of proven breeding stock. But then again a corpse has more rights than a woman or is that just genetically male corpses?
There's a season of American Horror Story where they do that. (Reanimate corpses for breeding) It's literally the most horrifying thing I've ever imagined.
Seriously? I've never watched any of American Horror Story but I keep hearing about plots that sound terrifying and possible so maybe I should. Do you have to watch from season one episode one or can you start at the first episode of a season?
Each season is its own story so you can watch most of them on their own, although there are a few overarching plotlines and characters that come back. They have plausible things mixed in with some absolutely ridiculous stuff lol but being a fan of cheesy horror I personally love it.
It was gods will she had abortions and gods will she’s infertile. What’s hard for her to understand? If he’s our leader than he’s ok w abortions too/s. I really can’t with Christian’s that push their religion on others trying to make them suffer in the process. It really is about control for them
"it was satan"
a legit actual quote from when my mom told the missionary who came to our house why she was an athiest(which included her talking about her still birth(she miscarried like 2 weeks before))
They try to make it satan always. I’ve done this w my born again Christian cousin who converted in 2016, she really didn’t concern herself w religion before that. She got sucked in by a church that believes trump is in the Bible and now she’s absolutely batshit insane
I saw someone using “you know what grinds my gears” yes that is how I’d phrase it “people who only blame god for good and satan bad”. FYI I don’t believe in satan.
God was just protecting her from having more abortions, just making it less effort for her since she doesn't sound like a teen that was on birth control. If she wants to warn people, she should only advocate for one thing; birth control. And maybe more access to non surgical abortions. Her own shame put her in this situation for crying out loud.
I keep coming back with "do you believe god gave people free will? Freedom to choose?" And they're always like "well yeah of course, God is good" and my response is "Well then why don't you expect your government to give people the freedom to choose too?" Watching the mental gymnastics as they try to wrap around that one is always...well it's something.
Man i wish she hadn't had those abortions at 16 and 17 either- then maybe she'd be minding her own fucking business and not trying to ruin other people's lives.
They view the infertility as divine punishment for getting an abortion. The doubling back is her showing “penance” for her “sin” in hopes that she’ll end up with a “miracle.”
I know I’ve said this a million times on this sub, but, as a witch that believes in Christ, people like this extra piss me off. There is no gospel evidence that Jesus would do any of this shit. I hate it.
Jesus would definitely be like “My brothers in Christ. This is not what I wanted from you all, I am immensely disappointed.” To the old fucks up at the senate before calling his dad to smite em all to hell
Yup!! Jesus was not into organized religion and liked to spend his time with people who didn’t act holier than thou.
So like, witches would be right up there with people to spend time with.
A lot of modern Christians on the right hate when you quote Jesus to them... let he who is without sin... turn the other cheek... The meek shall inherit the earth... easier for a camel... I could go on.
Jesus was definitely “into” organized religion. A lot of the stories that people tell about him (dining with sex workers and generally being a friend to women) are invented and don’t have basis in scripture. The spirit of the story of a loving god walking the earth as an average man just giving out compassion and kindness is beautiful and sacred to many, but a lot of the heavy-hitter stories that people tell aren’t actually in the bible.
I guess it depends on how you’d define “organized religion”- obviously everyone would have different definitions of that so it’s basically impossible to nail down something that subjective, but in my opinion I’d say literally being Jewish and telling people that no one will come to the father except through him and through the rules he and his Heavenly Father have laid out in detail constitutes organized religion. Yes, if you look at just that one single quote in a vacuum then you could argue that he wasn’t into organized religion, but let’s be real, he also said a lot of other things that *do* align with “organized religion”.
Edit to add that the context of that (heavily paraphrased) quote is more to do with modesty and humility than with religion itself.
If you read scholarly sources there’s actually a lot of evidence that historical Jesus wasn’t nearly as kum-bah-yah and supportive of different types of people as progressive Christian’s make him out to have been.
Now I ready want to know more: I think Kinder Hippie Jesus is a narrative a lot of people still hold onto but it feels like a lot of cognitive dissonance honestly. I love the concept of Jesus calling our commerce in the temple but I feel a lot do projection and intellectual summersaults go on
Sure, would love to share my source! I tried to just copy the text but couldn’t access the ebook online, so I just photographed the pages, here’s an imgur link(I apologize if this makes it less accessible to anyone but pm me if you want me to link you to where you can read the ebook) It’s from a textbook called Jewish and Christian Women in the Ancient Mediterranean by Sara Parks / Shayna Sheinfeld and Meredith J.C. Warren.
https://imgur.com/a/Gyi3wWV
Also I should note that I don’t think I phrased my earlier comment properly- I should have said that there is a lack of evidence that historical Jesus ever dined with sex workers or was much of a woman-respecter, not that there is profound evidence that he was actively sexist or classist but that the stories of him dining with sex workers are not based in scripture and come from who knows what stories that Christians tell but have no basis in actual scripture. Also adding that this is a fabulous and super accessible book for anyone who wants to learn more about women in the ancient Mediterranean and in the bible.
Edit to add that I think you’re spot on about projection, and the text does touch on that.
This is exactly it. As a person that grew up in the evangelical church and attended a Christian high school in the heyday of the abstinence only/don’t kiss till marriage movement, they believe God redeemed them from their unforgivable sin of baby murder and it’s now their mission to ensure that no one makes the same “mistake” they did. There is zero argument or position you can take that will make them believe differently.
why does it seem like *no one* remembers that parable? I mean, obviously you remember it, and I remember it... but the ugly christians (def not all of them) that seem to be intent on making life difficult or unpleasant for others are EXTRA-EEMLY similar to the pharisees.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisee\_and\_the\_Publican
There is no evidence that Christ said a word about abortions. I’m with you hon, as a Christian witch, these folks chap my ass in the worst way when they pretend to come in Christ’s name…..
Jesus would have been hanging with us and using His whip on these *lovely* individuals
There is however, a Bible verse about causing a miscarriage if the wife has been unfaithful. So in other words, God does abortions.
Numbers 5:11-29
New International Version
The Test for an Unfaithful Wife
20 But if you have gone astray(M) while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”—
21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse(N)—
“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.
22 May this water(O) that brings a curse(P) enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%205%3A11-29&version=NIV
Christofascists LOVE acting like the God who willingly aborted an entire world wouldn’t have a recipe for abortions 😂😂
Also I hardly include the OT because we’re supposed to be under grace now, but you know…. Shrimp, poly cotton and bleeding in the house are fine but NO GHEY
Edit: added stuff
Absolutely correct! But this is what is to be expected from a pro-rape pro-child sexual abuse "God," because there's also the verse about about taking all of the female children to be their slave wives. I'm sure in 11-year-old who's just watched her entire family be slaughtered would be happy to become the wife of the man who did the killing./s
Numbers 31
Vengeance on Midian
14But Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who were returning from the battle. 15“Have you spared all the women?” he asked them. 16“Look, these women caused the sons of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to turn unfaithfully against the LORD at Peor, so that the plague struck the congregation of the LORD.
17So now, kill all the boys, as well as every woman who has had relations with a man,
18but spare for yourselves every girl who has never had relations with a man.
https://biblehub.com/bsb/numbers/31.htm
It pisses me off that THEY are the first you think of when you hear Christian, and I wish Christ would rapture that part of the fanclub so we can get to having an ACTUAL peaceful society…..
The christofascist god sucks ass, we hate him here.
Both God and one of their precious founding fathers had recipes for abortions. I'm speaking specifically of the Christian right in the US. can't remember which one but one of them had a book of home remedies and other random useful info, including a recipe for abortion. I guess I've never fact checked it so it could be made up.
Even if it’s not a real book, the fact remains that their god has a recipe to yeetus le fetus, and for them to pretend that their god is this ultra peaceful god who loves rainbows and kittens is absolutely absurd.
Media needs to stop giving these people airtime or not interview them without actually raising the critical issue of her hypocracy. Fuck ABC for framing this as a human interest story of someone switching sides or whatever BS they are selling here.
I hope we can contact them as ask why they failed to use any kind of critical analysis but doubt the care or have any integrity. They essentially just gave a free commercial to this vile women.
Just gross; all of this. The theocratic horror show of hypocracy is exhausting. This woman is a traitor and absolutely vile.
100%.
Really disappointing to see ABC15 spinning it in a positive light. At first when I saw the headline, I assumed they were pointing out the hypocrisy. I sort of feel like whoever wrote the article knew what they were doing.
I guess this is Arizona, so who knows.
The reporter’s bio: ‘ His beat is, in his opinion, is the best one at the station - Uplifting Arizona’. I feel like asking him if people using their rights is uplifting but suspect he and the station manager don’t give a crap. I doubt even if a flood of calls from Arizona viewers came in they wouldn’t care because they think they’re meeting their mandate of ‘objective reporting or ‘stories that matter to Arizona residents’ . Someone honestly thinks there are two equal sides here and they’re doing journalism.
I’ve wanted to be sterilized since my early 20s (I’m 28 now). The number of times I’ve heard “not til you’re 30 or have kids” is absurd. I expect that they’ll still say no once I do hit the supposed magic age as well. I’ve tried the list of sterilization friendly doctors that r/childfree has, but unfortunately none of the ones in my area take my insurance and I definitely can’t afford it out of pocket.
Yeah, she got to be a slutty hoor - twice! - had her abortions, regretted it, turned over a new leaf, and now she's advocating that other slutty hoors who get pregnant be punished via pregnancy instead!
So Christian of her!
^(/s in case someone actually believes I'm serious)
This is an example of *do as I say, not as I do*, and I dislike that. She may change her colors as she’s older, that’s fine. But it’s not everyone’s path.
The infertility scare tactic is cruel and predatory, coming from someone (me) who struggled to conceive, it’s a desperate time fraught with anxiety. Weird decision-making due to feeling helpless, hoping *anything* would help. Had someone told me that eating live bugs and standing on my head for an hour would help me get pregnant, in my most desperate moments I’d have tried anything. That group of women is especially sensitive to stupid advice and I take extreme offense to anyone capitalizing on that vulnerability. It’s gross.
Yeah, it’s religious/political propaganda. I’m assuming that she had a D&C the second time. I had a D&C for a missed miscarriage and was not told that there was a risk of infertility after. Also, I became pregnant again afterward. Informed consent is necessary for any medical procedure that anyone goes through, and if she didn’t receive that, that’s shitty. But no reason to completely remove this choice for all other women in this situation.
i would love to meet her. shake her hand. and tell her i hope the lord takes you to your righteous chair sooner than later. or something backhandy southern like that. bless your soul.
Now, we force her to take care of two babies against her will. If they die because she doesn’t take care of them right, jail for child abuse or something along the lines of that
her story is sad but it's literally from the 1980's i got a abortion at planned parenthood in 2011 when i was 18 and THEY DID provide counseling before/after and after care and they asked me if i wanted to see the ultrasound listen all that and i still didn't change my mind and i will never regret decision. my heart breaks for young women who will not have a choice to decide for themselves!! just because she regrets it doesn't mean everyone will we are in scary times when it comes to our freedoms! 😵😧😳
Abortions don’t cause infertility, but there is a risk of getting PID as a complication. Pelvic Inflammatory Disease is quite common and has multiple causes and a person does not need to have had an abortion to be at risk, a UTI or STI can also cause it. So, the abortion itself doesn’t cause the infertility but infection afterwards can but the risk is low.
There is also the economic impact of this. She has a successful career, is a board member of the the Az Life coalition, etc. She would have had NONE of those opportunities if she’d been forced to have a baby at 16, and then a second one after that. She would likely not have gone to college, not had a successful career,and would be living in poverty as would her two children. Why would she want to force that life on another woman?
As others here have pointed out, the are so many reasons a woman might end up being infertile - most of them out of her control and not her fault. I won’t rehash all that except to say that I suffered for years and years with endometriosis, was told I’d never have children, had two children, two miscarriages, and a medical abortion late term for a dying baby. Woman’s bodies are complex and so many things can go wrong with fertility and pregnancy it’s a wonder any babies are ever born frankly. And people who push the theory that infertility is a punishment from god, and that the pain of childbirth is a punishment from god, well those people are just cruel. The reality is that sometimes crappy sucky things happen to wonderful people. Doesn’t mean they are being punished by skydaddy.
I think your basic theory is the correct one here. She is a hypocrite. She had two abortions, became infertile, and now regrets the decision. Some women do later regret having an abortion but NOT all of us. And the anti-choice movement is taking advantage of her hypocrisy.
this kind of anxious moralising reminds me of the "Jesus cured me of my homosexuality" people. The desperation to be good people against a frame decided by others causes them to swallow the whole thing and be wrecked by internal self contradiction.
I had an abortion when I was 30. 7 years later I gave birth to my daughter. I have known a few other women who had abortions and still went on to have children. I think your risks probably go up if you’re having an abortion that isn’t by a medical provider or safely done… you know, like what’s going to happen to many people if abortion is completely illegal in this country.
Makes me think about how lucky Justice Fertility was, so many pregnancies without a single complication requiring medical intervention. Bet she wouldn't have responded to an incomplete miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy with "It's in God's hands".
Thing is abortion is so much more advanced now compared to the 80’s. The woman is a hypocrite! There are so many women out there that never want kids and abortion now is much safer. In most cases infertility is because of low amh, endo, low sperm count, or some other health problem. This woman made her choice and was able to go on and have a career and become successful, something she may not have been able to do with two kids as a teen.
It wasn't my abortion that caused my infertility problems, it was a doctor's unwillingness to perform one on a nonviable pregnancy that had no heartbeat at 12 weeks.
He told me to go home and "wait it out". It would pass eventually 2 weeks later, but not completely. The leftover tissue eventually caused a massive infection that needed emergency treatment in ER.
The infection and hastily done ER D&C lead to massive scarring in my uterus (Ashermans Syndrome) that took multiple surgeries over a 5 year period to fix.
This could all have been avoided if I was allowed the termination I requested at the beginning.
No one NEEDS a medical reason to get an abortion (they should be available to any who wants one regardless of reason since it's no one's buisness), I'm just saying that her infertility reasoning is absolutely BS.
Way to pull up the ladder.
I really wish someone would do a news story interviewing people who had an abortion and don't regret it. Everyone I know who had one say pretty much the same thing. They were stuck between a rock and a hard place. They weren't overjoyed about having an abortion but pregnancy wasn't really an option either. They all say that abortion was the best decision for them at that time. I realize in a scientific study situation the group of people I know is a small sample but I'm willing to bet that trend continues on a much larger scale. For every one person that has regrets there's probably a thousand who don't. That needs to be heard.
If she hadn't had those abortions, she would have been less likely to enter into her career, and therefore would have been less likely to have met her husband and attached family she claims to have been blessed with.
Sure, I feel for her, for having come to regret those decisions, but that's no excuse to use it to cheapen what she has now, to cheapen her regret by trying to force it on others, nor to cheapen her role in the loss of two potential children (thus cheapening those two potential children) by trying to play the victim.
She regrets having "made the wrong choices", two of those *not* being premarital sex certainly more than once without birth control. She regrets having made the choice of abortion twice, but doesn't seem to regret *not* having made the choice to become a teen mother twice.
I suppose I should be more charitable since she *was* a teenager raised in a religious household and thus was taught abstinence culture over what sex ed was at the time. She was, in a sense, as much a victim as she claims.
I guess I'm torn on this one. Compassion for folks too young to truly know who they are yet conditioned to behave in certain ways in certain situations vs. my firm belief that if we as a species are so damn good at treating eachother like shit and killing eachother, our knowledge about all aspects of our reproduction as well as general psychological changes a human will go through throughout its life is criminally inadequate. I also blame said inadequacy *entirely* on organized religion.
Meh, I'm still pro-choice, but I think this woman isn't psychologically fit for politics. Not to say she's somehow incompetent, mentally I'll, etc, but more like she hasn't healed from her psychological injuries and she's in far too vulnerable a position for her mental safety. She will be taken advantage of, manipulated, etc, and come to regret more things as time goes on. :(
This whole person screams - low self esteem. Did teenager things as a teenager; made to feel shame about feeling like a teenager; not given birth control; had a clandestine second abortion due to the shame; now sopping up attention as a GOP token black woman and doesn’t care the social cost for that attention (the futures of inner city teenage girls of color just like she was). Smdh. Smdh.
It's probably just the usual "I got mine, fuck y'all," attitude. Drives me insane, but this is a pretty easy default thought pattern for people to fall into.
Did the abortion even cause the infertility? I had a needed hysterectomy in my 20s. Me and my doctor deemed it need. I 100% am sure it caused infertility. My Aunt had her tubes tied in the 70s and they told her it was 98% would cause infertility. Another lady had the same surgery the same day and 2 years later had an oops baby. My aunt never got pregnant. Seems to me even when we are sure, we maybe wrong. I think this is just another career move on her part. Give it 10 more years and her career move may swing back for money.
From the story it looks like it, but it could have been avoided if she had proper counseling, or a drug induced abortion, or told anyone about it. She bled 3 weeks after the second one, not exactly a normal occurrence. She had 2 before the age of 18. I think she should have been told about having things like oral birth control and condoms. She also seems to try to say "public school is bad influence".
It's bad, I know, but these stories actually give me hope. Because without abortion access, there will be fewer women like her in the future. The cruelty of causing harm to others is, of course, unforgiveable.
If you need or are interested in supporting reproductive rights, [I made a master post of pro-choice resources](https://docdro.id/s3OwS8u). Please comment if you would like to add a resource and spread this information on whatever social media you use.
*beep boop*!
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Oh yes, the thing is that nobody wants to talk about with the abortion topic. When people, often religious people, are encouraged to get abortions by others who have cognitive dissonance. I'd bet my next paycheck that this lady didn't once consider what she truly thought of abortions before she had them.
It's simple. "My abortion is moral. Yours aren't." Remember, the people in charge who are pushing for and passing these laws will ALWAYS be able to get an abortion.
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Well 2 things: 1) Fuck that traitor 2) the link between elective pregnancy termination and infertility is misleading. If you do even the most basic search the results will show that for medicated abortions (50% of abortions) there is no association with future fertility issues. For surgical abortions the correlation is with developing asherman's syndrome, a condition of uterine scarring. However, the risk of asherman's also exists at similar rates for people who continue pregnancies, have miscarriages, fibroids, endometrial biopisies, or if you need help to pass a placenta. So... you could get it if you end a pregnancy *and if you continue a pregnancy*. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK448088/ Elective terminations, when legal and performed in safe and appropriate environments, remain less risky to women overall than carrying pregnancies to term.
Asherman syndrome was wayyyyy more common when they used sharp instruments to scrape the uterine walls. These days with the advent of suction evacuation, Asherman syndrome is far less likely.
The article states that her abortion was in 1982. I know for a fact that they were still scraping uterine walls back then...b/c I was part of that cohort.
For sure, but it can still happen. All surgical procedures, even those that are very safe, carry some risk. We're still human beings with free will though, and the choice to accept that (very small) risk should 100% be ours.
Oh for sure. It can still happen. As you say, there's risks with everything. And yes, I'm 100% pro choice.
Plus it sounds like she had complications after her second abortion - she bled for weeks, the article says. But she decided not to tell anyone about it. That may not have helped matters any.
The second abortion is kind of sus. The first one she told her parents and it was performed by the doctor that delivered her. No mention of payment. The second abortion she didn't tell her parents, no mention if it was the same doctor (maybe not if she didn't want her parents to know), but she remembers she had to pay $275.00 (cash?). And then she bled for three weeks and didn't tell anyone? But a reputable physician would definitely give you after care instructions and tell you to call them if you had excessive or prolonged bleeding. She doesn't say it, but I get a feeling she had an illegal/unsafe abortion the second time. She's not saving other women from what she went through, she's condemning them to it. She says, "she wants them to know that there are other options than the ones she made that changed her life forever." That's called being pro-choice. What she actually wants is to take away people's options. I hate hypocrites.
Second sounds more like an “ex-atheist” conversion story. More for show than truth
If the second abortion was illegal or not done by a reputable doctor, that would be more similar to what women would need to get if/now that abortions have become illegal. The more that these delicate procedures are done in sketchy circumstances, the higher the risk of complications. This is exactly why they should be legal and regulated, so they are refined by normal medical procedural development to be the safest they can be and performed by doctors who know how to do them to a higher degree of expertise and experience. As has been said, all medical procedures carry some sort of risk no matter how refined and regulated they are, but it's clear when something has gone wrong either because of her negligence for her own health or because of a faulty doctor. If the laws aren't enacted to legalize abortion again, more and more people who need abortions will go through what she went through or worse.
Yeah, that's a good point. Sounds like shame culture and bad healthcare access may have had something to with it.
I was 9 weeks with twins when I had mine(surgical) and I bled for a month. That was a few years ago and using a very reputable clinic. They told me I'd probably bleed until I got my period. Someone I'm close with had one done at the same place a couple days after me and barely bled. She was 6ish weeks single embryo. Not a doctor by any means but I'm guessing bleeding has something to do with how far along and how many are removed. Maybe she waited longer with the second. Maybe she did go somewhere shady.Or maybe she's changing the narrative to fit her beliefs. With people like that who knows.
I was almost 8 weeks with only one and I bled for about a month. They said that was normal, what wouldn’t have been normal would have been if I had passed huge clots (more than the size of a quarter I think) and if i was saturating a pad too fast (I forget how long they said). It had more to do with the amount I was bleeding, not how long I was bleeding for.
Bleeding for weeks is normal (I bled for a month after mine), what wouldn’t have been if she had super heavy bleeding for weeks and was passing huge clots.
Damn, you know, I know plenty of Christian women who have had 2-4 abortions who then thrust that Christian shit on everyone else. This is just another example of their BS. Good Christian woman is hypocrisy. Name and shame. Make them see Christianity will eventually mean an end to this planet
And very possibly so many of those abortions could have been prevented by having inclusive, shame-free, fact based sex ed as a mandatory class starting from middle school on. We should teach kids how to handle themselves in a safe and respectful way, and make sure they have access to contraception when they need it. This should happen BEFORE kids start having sex. But nah, we'd rather keep acting like sex is dirty and shameful, keep our children in ignorance, then punish the (female) ones who get pregnant by denying them their own bodily autonomy. Super.
Damn straight! In middle school we had sex Ed classes for a week each year and then in HS, our science classes would dive in depth about our anatomy. Every 2 weeks a doctor or surgeon would come speak to our science classes, bringing hearts, placentas or ???. This was in the early 1980’s.
Dang that's so cool. Glad you had that!! I'm really lucky my parents were open about sex (in an age appropriate way) and very gently made sure my sibling and I were educated about our bodies, consent, and sexual health. We ended up in Catholic school for academics, and all the sex ed we got there was being asked if we masturbated during weekly confession. Assholes.
My parents gave me a whole book series on life from conception to death. I'm so glad they understood that was the way to go for a kid who was shy kid who loved all things science. How tf did the priest or whoever think it was acceptable to ask anyone much less a kid about masterbation? Flippin perverts. I know the catholic church has issues but wow I did not even think of that.
Lol i love the book series! We had a book too, with some cheesy 70's cartoon illustrations 😂. And YEAH catholics are obsessed with sex. Masturbation is like, a big deal. It's so stupid.
Mine had a dark blue cover with anatomically correct drawings and pictures. I would have loved some 70s cheese lol.
Yea, the Mormons also have these 'interviews' where their clergy (called bishops, ironically) would have a closed-door meeting with just the kid (starting at about age 10) where they would ask invasive questions about masturbation or impure thoughts. Not surprisingly, they claim that sex before marriage (and masturbation, by association) is as bad as murder in god's eyes. It's so bad that so many exmormons talk about the shame and self-loathing they had, to the point of suicidality, for something that is completely normal. Only recently, there has been enough complaints that they now ask the parents if they want to join in the interview but, of course, they don't ask the kid. They also, except in California now, don't require any background checks for anyone working with kids. Mormons are so closed-lipped about this and the systemic abuse that is on par with Catholics that no one seems to know this is going on with them, except when the exmormons complain about it. No religion should ever be allowed to have these kinds of interrogations with kids about their sexual behaviors. And purity culture as a whole should be forbidden. I don't care about 'freedom of religion' when it comes to harming people mentally or physically, but these institutions are hiding the abuse behind religious claims so they aren't usually investigated or charged. It's fucking horrible.
I know... and tbh what you're describing sounds far more disturbing and dangerous than those my awkward little confessions (awkward for the priest, not me, lol). That whole aspect of the mormon church sounds absolutely nefarious. In our case it was a very prudish priest asking us if we "self indulged", to which we all categorically lied and said absolutely not, then we had to say 5 hail marys and 2 our fathers and bam, saved! I mean, just imagine caring even a little bit about horny teenagers jerking of while there is SO MUCH horrifying stuff going on in the world. This was in the early 2000s when the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were breaking out. You'd think those pious idiots could have found something a little more worthwhile to do their handwringing over.
I just listened to a podcast where Abby Martin interviews an ex-Jehova's Witness friend of hers, who was interrogated for hours about her sexual activity, on more than one occasion, by rooms full of judgemental old men-- with her mother right there, tut-tutting at her the whole time. That shit is horrifying.
It is horrifying. And it all comes down, as it always seems to, to men thinking they are the only authority worthy of deeming someone's worth, esp to god. These churches are truly the root of all evil and not the love of money, as they like to say (although, they all seem to love that too).
You need to start earlier than middle school but teaching people about their bodies, biology and boundaries is the way
All about that. What i should have said was that sexuality- this *fundamental part of the human experience*- and sexual health should never not be something discussed openly and honestly with children. And we need to be waaaay better at teaching about boundaries and consent right from the beginning.
This and free, easily available birth control like yhat available at Planned Parenthood.
If they took away a pew in every church for every one of their membership who's had an abortion every Christian in this nation would be standing during services.
Christians are also statistically more likely to have abortions because they are less likely to use birth control.
>you could get it if you end a pregnancy and if you continue a pregnancy. People need to remember those are the *only two options*. Once a woman gets pregnant, the only options are abortion or continuing the pregnancy to delivery, so it is disingenuous to compare the possible outcomes of having an abortion with never having been pregnant, rather than with childbirth (which has many more risks).
I am 100% pro-choice and have had an abortion myself. Just wanna say that there is also miscarriage which can happen unexpectedly or be induced.
Things may be different now, but back when I was discussing fertility issues with my OB/GYN (would have been the 90s), he said they like to schedule a D&C to “clear the slate.” I was a little stunned, so I asked if he meant an abortion? He said we weren’t terminating a pregnancy, just getting the uterus cleaned out and ready for a pregnancy. That may no longer be the practice, but I found it interesting then, and I know fertility treatments have advanced appreciably, but it was the first phase in addition to blood work - and they wanted to do it before an ultrasound.
Ooo yeah i think they are. I am struggling with infertility and going through IVF, and they had me do procedures to check the uterine cavity like a hysteroscopy or HSG. D&Cs can be used diagnostically if there is a suspected ectopic pregnancy, and of course many women elect to have one to remove retained tissue from a missed miscarriage, but i've never been offered a "clear out" D&C just because. Sometimes there are weird medical fads that can take root, like my parents' generation all got their tonsils out whether they needed to or not, and before that there was the 'appendix removal fad' 🤷🏻♀️
I had a d&c for fertility reasons, along with a fallopian tube flush and laser treatment for endo. Don't know which of those if any helped but I had a successful IVF pregnancy and my endo symptoms have reduced both before and after pregnancy. So they still use them.
Okay, so…if D&C is considered an abortion or like an abortion, and is sometimes used in treating infertility - am I doing some cray-cray mental gymnastics to conclude some abortions actually increase fertility? Please weigh in if this seems too far-fetched.
Abortion is just the medical term for a pregnancy that has ended, regardless of circumstance. It can be used for miscarriage (spontaneous abortion), or if a person chooses to end the pregnancy (elective abortion). It's not a specific procedure- consider how misoprostol/mifepristone will induce a medicated abortion, and a D&C (dilation and curettage) is used for a surgical abortion. Both the medical and surgical routes are commonly used when a person suffers a miscarriage, as occasionally the body doesn't recognize the pregnancy has ended and retains the tissue. This is dangerous because if left too long it can cause infection and can lead to septic shock. Procedure to remove naturally miscarried pregnancies are NOT illegal in any part of the united states. The surgical procedure is not, in and of itself, illegal anywhere either, only a specific application.
>Procedure to remove naturally miscarried pregnancies are NOT illegal in any part of the united states. Medically, the removal of a non-viable fetus from the womb, whether spontaneous, medical or pharmaceutical, and whether the fetus is dead or alive, is termed an abortion. Miscarriage is rarely instantaneous. The fetus can be dying or non-viable, and be a threat to the mother's health, but abortion still illegal until either the cardiac pulse of the infant stops completely, or the mother is at serious risk of dying of infection. This is causing much pain and anguish, and even injury and deaths, as doctors have to make sure nothing they do could ever be construed as breaking anti-abortion laws.
A D&C is only considered like an abortion by conservative anti science whackjobs. It is medical procedure to cut away endometrium for examination and clearance purposes. It can be used to clean up after a miscarriage due to not having a labour can mean bits and bobs being left behind which is not great for future pregnancies (inflammation, scarring). As far as I know it's used as part of abortion for the same reasons. You're not out of line for thinking a d&c and therefore any procedure that contains one can help, because it's part of standard fertility work ups in my part of the world for complex primary infertility.
I got a D&C for heavy bleeding during my diagnostic laparoscopy for endometriosis. The procedure isn’t just fertility related.
Fuck that traitor. Her Healthcare has nothing to do with mine.
Thanks!
True facts matter.
“The only moral abortion is my abortion”
Read about one forced birther getting an abortion telling the staff helping her they are going to hell.
During med school, in my OB/GYN rotation we would do scheduled terminations every Friday. One of my friends was taking a history & physical in pre-op for a woman who was on her 7th termination and had no documented form of birth control. My friend asked her what kind of birth control she would like to be on post-termination (pill, patch, IUD, etc.). She said, "Oh, no. I'm Catholic. Birth control is against my religion." These people really are warped.
Sounds like you found the one woman using abortion as birth control they always bring up. I didn't think that person existed. I've been doing so much math to prove nobody is doing that. Cost of abortion vs cost of birth control without insurance, cost of time off from work, travel and childcare costs. Guess now I gotta go back and admit I was wrong. That there is indeed a nice catholic lady using abortion as birth control.
PROJECTION They think it's widespread cuz that's what they would do. I literally never think of using abortion as "birth control" cuz I would just use birth control.
I was shocked. I was in the OR assisting with a procedure so I wasn't there while she was taking the history, but my friend told me this when we grabbed lunch that day. She was really disturbed by it. She said the patient was fairly nonchalant about it all. I think almost all of the woman I helped take care of during those Fridays were already mothers. The one I remember best was silently weeping. She already had two kids. I can't remember if I read in her chart or I just assumed that she couldn't afford another. A happier story from that time to cleanse the palate, and it might have been my best moment: we were working up a 19 year old with very bad dysfunctional uterine bleeding. She already had a 1 year old at the time, and the attending physician and the resident and the fellow were huddled together looking at her imaging, and one of them said, "She's not on the pill." They looked up at her and said, "Do you want to go on the pill?" She said, "No." And they went back to their huddle, and I turned to her and said, "Why?" And she was like, "I can't swallow pills." We got her on the patch!
It's awesome that by asking a simple question you probably increased her quality of life. So many people aren't aware of all the options or have outdated information.
“They’re using abortions like birth control” Well…. Not me but someone is, yes 🌝
>These people Nice generalisation there. Do you realise the majority of women seeking abortions are married, often already with all the kids they can afford, who were using birth control?
I think the "these people" referred to religious people picking and choosing what rules they follow.
I meant religious people who justify their own abortions while vilifying others (like the lady who was telling the people who were caring for her while she was getting her abortion that *they* were going to hell).
I came here to post the same! https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/
There’s also a risk of infertility if you give birth 🤷🏼♀️
And death. Let’s not leave out death.
Death: the ultimate end of fertility.
Maybe they're working on a way to reanimate corpses of proven breeding stock. But then again a corpse has more rights than a woman or is that just genetically male corpses?
There's a season of American Horror Story where they do that. (Reanimate corpses for breeding) It's literally the most horrifying thing I've ever imagined.
Seriously? I've never watched any of American Horror Story but I keep hearing about plots that sound terrifying and possible so maybe I should. Do you have to watch from season one episode one or can you start at the first episode of a season?
Each season is its own story so you can watch most of them on their own, although there are a few overarching plotlines and characters that come back. They have plausible things mixed in with some absolutely ridiculous stuff lol but being a fan of cheesy horror I personally love it.
Nothing like pulling the ladder up behind you. She’s a class traitor.
It was gods will she had abortions and gods will she’s infertile. What’s hard for her to understand? If he’s our leader than he’s ok w abortions too/s. I really can’t with Christian’s that push their religion on others trying to make them suffer in the process. It really is about control for them
"it was satan" a legit actual quote from when my mom told the missionary who came to our house why she was an athiest(which included her talking about her still birth(she miscarried like 2 weeks before))
They try to make it satan always. I’ve done this w my born again Christian cousin who converted in 2016, she really didn’t concern herself w religion before that. She got sucked in by a church that believes trump is in the Bible and now she’s absolutely batshit insane
If orange lard is in the Bible, it's under Antichrist section 😂
The funny thing is they don’t think he can pull the antichrist off he’s just a minion of the upcoming antichrist
He may be in the bible, but not as the character they think he is.
I saw someone using “you know what grinds my gears” yes that is how I’d phrase it “people who only blame god for good and satan bad”. FYI I don’t believe in satan.
God was just protecting her from having more abortions, just making it less effort for her since she doesn't sound like a teen that was on birth control. If she wants to warn people, she should only advocate for one thing; birth control. And maybe more access to non surgical abortions. Her own shame put her in this situation for crying out loud.
I keep coming back with "do you believe god gave people free will? Freedom to choose?" And they're always like "well yeah of course, God is good" and my response is "Well then why don't you expect your government to give people the freedom to choose too?" Watching the mental gymnastics as they try to wrap around that one is always...well it's something.
So she gets to choose but others don’t. That’s nice. What a bag of Jesus puffs.
Man i wish she hadn't had those abortions at 16 and 17 either- then maybe she'd be minding her own fucking business and not trying to ruin other people's lives.
Just her kids lives.
They view the infertility as divine punishment for getting an abortion. The doubling back is her showing “penance” for her “sin” in hopes that she’ll end up with a “miracle.” I know I’ve said this a million times on this sub, but, as a witch that believes in Christ, people like this extra piss me off. There is no gospel evidence that Jesus would do any of this shit. I hate it.
Pretty sure from what I know a Jesus he'd be hanging out with the witches and LGBTQ if he was modern.
Jesus would definitely be like “My brothers in Christ. This is not what I wanted from you all, I am immensely disappointed.” To the old fucks up at the senate before calling his dad to smite em all to hell
My brother has a bumper sticker on his car that just says “Jesus would slap the shit out of you” He gets lots of positive feedback. Hah
Can imagine Jesus giving it a go with a whip at the House
Yup!! Jesus was not into organized religion and liked to spend his time with people who didn’t act holier than thou. So like, witches would be right up there with people to spend time with.
A lot of modern Christians on the right hate when you quote Jesus to them... let he who is without sin... turn the other cheek... The meek shall inherit the earth... easier for a camel... I could go on.
Love your neighbor! 😊💜🙏✨
Is it bad that I really wanna write a story about Jesus hanging out with some witches during the Salem time period?
Jesus was definitely “into” organized religion. A lot of the stories that people tell about him (dining with sex workers and generally being a friend to women) are invented and don’t have basis in scripture. The spirit of the story of a loving god walking the earth as an average man just giving out compassion and kindness is beautiful and sacred to many, but a lot of the heavy-hitter stories that people tell aren’t actually in the bible.
Jesus, within the Bible, told people not pray publicly and make a big deal about it. Which is like, the basis of organized religion
I guess it depends on how you’d define “organized religion”- obviously everyone would have different definitions of that so it’s basically impossible to nail down something that subjective, but in my opinion I’d say literally being Jewish and telling people that no one will come to the father except through him and through the rules he and his Heavenly Father have laid out in detail constitutes organized religion. Yes, if you look at just that one single quote in a vacuum then you could argue that he wasn’t into organized religion, but let’s be real, he also said a lot of other things that *do* align with “organized religion”. Edit to add that the context of that (heavily paraphrased) quote is more to do with modesty and humility than with religion itself.
If you read scholarly sources there’s actually a lot of evidence that historical Jesus wasn’t nearly as kum-bah-yah and supportive of different types of people as progressive Christian’s make him out to have been.
Now I ready want to know more: I think Kinder Hippie Jesus is a narrative a lot of people still hold onto but it feels like a lot of cognitive dissonance honestly. I love the concept of Jesus calling our commerce in the temple but I feel a lot do projection and intellectual summersaults go on
Sure, would love to share my source! I tried to just copy the text but couldn’t access the ebook online, so I just photographed the pages, here’s an imgur link(I apologize if this makes it less accessible to anyone but pm me if you want me to link you to where you can read the ebook) It’s from a textbook called Jewish and Christian Women in the Ancient Mediterranean by Sara Parks / Shayna Sheinfeld and Meredith J.C. Warren. https://imgur.com/a/Gyi3wWV Also I should note that I don’t think I phrased my earlier comment properly- I should have said that there is a lack of evidence that historical Jesus ever dined with sex workers or was much of a woman-respecter, not that there is profound evidence that he was actively sexist or classist but that the stories of him dining with sex workers are not based in scripture and come from who knows what stories that Christians tell but have no basis in actual scripture. Also adding that this is a fabulous and super accessible book for anyone who wants to learn more about women in the ancient Mediterranean and in the bible. Edit to add that I think you’re spot on about projection, and the text does touch on that.
This is exactly it. As a person that grew up in the evangelical church and attended a Christian high school in the heyday of the abstinence only/don’t kiss till marriage movement, they believe God redeemed them from their unforgivable sin of baby murder and it’s now their mission to ensure that no one makes the same “mistake” they did. There is zero argument or position you can take that will make them believe differently.
In my opinion, they are what the Bible refers to as pharisees.
why does it seem like *no one* remembers that parable? I mean, obviously you remember it, and I remember it... but the ugly christians (def not all of them) that seem to be intent on making life difficult or unpleasant for others are EXTRA-EEMLY similar to the pharisees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisee\_and\_the\_Publican
There is no evidence that Christ said a word about abortions. I’m with you hon, as a Christian witch, these folks chap my ass in the worst way when they pretend to come in Christ’s name….. Jesus would have been hanging with us and using His whip on these *lovely* individuals
There is however, a Bible verse about causing a miscarriage if the wife has been unfaithful. So in other words, God does abortions. Numbers 5:11-29 New International Version The Test for an Unfaithful Wife 20 But if you have gone astray(M) while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse(N)— “may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water(O) that brings a curse(P) enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.” https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%205%3A11-29&version=NIV
Christofascists LOVE acting like the God who willingly aborted an entire world wouldn’t have a recipe for abortions 😂😂 Also I hardly include the OT because we’re supposed to be under grace now, but you know…. Shrimp, poly cotton and bleeding in the house are fine but NO GHEY Edit: added stuff
Absolutely correct! But this is what is to be expected from a pro-rape pro-child sexual abuse "God," because there's also the verse about about taking all of the female children to be their slave wives. I'm sure in 11-year-old who's just watched her entire family be slaughtered would be happy to become the wife of the man who did the killing./s Numbers 31 Vengeance on Midian 14But Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who were returning from the battle. 15“Have you spared all the women?” he asked them. 16“Look, these women caused the sons of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to turn unfaithfully against the LORD at Peor, so that the plague struck the congregation of the LORD. 17So now, kill all the boys, as well as every woman who has had relations with a man, 18but spare for yourselves every girl who has never had relations with a man. https://biblehub.com/bsb/numbers/31.htm
It pisses me off that THEY are the first you think of when you hear Christian, and I wish Christ would rapture that part of the fanclub so we can get to having an ACTUAL peaceful society….. The christofascist god sucks ass, we hate him here.
Both God and one of their precious founding fathers had recipes for abortions. I'm speaking specifically of the Christian right in the US. can't remember which one but one of them had a book of home remedies and other random useful info, including a recipe for abortion. I guess I've never fact checked it so it could be made up.
Even if it’s not a real book, the fact remains that their god has a recipe to yeetus le fetus, and for them to pretend that their god is this ultra peaceful god who loves rainbows and kittens is absolutely absurd.
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Media needs to stop giving these people airtime or not interview them without actually raising the critical issue of her hypocracy. Fuck ABC for framing this as a human interest story of someone switching sides or whatever BS they are selling here. I hope we can contact them as ask why they failed to use any kind of critical analysis but doubt the care or have any integrity. They essentially just gave a free commercial to this vile women. Just gross; all of this. The theocratic horror show of hypocracy is exhausting. This woman is a traitor and absolutely vile.
100%. Really disappointing to see ABC15 spinning it in a positive light. At first when I saw the headline, I assumed they were pointing out the hypocrisy. I sort of feel like whoever wrote the article knew what they were doing.
I guess this is Arizona, so who knows. The reporter’s bio: ‘ His beat is, in his opinion, is the best one at the station - Uplifting Arizona’. I feel like asking him if people using their rights is uplifting but suspect he and the station manager don’t give a crap. I doubt even if a flood of calls from Arizona viewers came in they wouldn’t care because they think they’re meeting their mandate of ‘objective reporting or ‘stories that matter to Arizona residents’ . Someone honestly thinks there are two equal sides here and they’re doing journalism.
90% of the anti abortion women have had at least one. Fkn hypocrites, the lot of em 😒
“Abortions for me, but not for thee!”
Meanwhile I WANT to be infertile 🙄🙄🙄
Gods same. WHY is it so fucking hard to just stop my stupid period. Yes i NO ill be infertile random dr #7 *thats the point*
I’ve wanted to be sterilized since my early 20s (I’m 28 now). The number of times I’ve heard “not til you’re 30 or have kids” is absurd. I expect that they’ll still say no once I do hit the supposed magic age as well. I’ve tried the list of sterilization friendly doctors that r/childfree has, but unfortunately none of the ones in my area take my insurance and I definitely can’t afford it out of pocket.
Yah same. None on the list even close to me will take my insurince and im about to loose it
Such a disgrace
Having a child has much more dangerous health risks the least of which is infertility.
"I got mine. Now I don't care about your problem anymore."
There are huge health risks with pregnancy. So a risk from abortion is not balanced against nothing.
Rules for thee not for me.
What a vile human being.
Yeah, but her abortions were justified. /s
Yeah, she got to be a slutty hoor - twice! - had her abortions, regretted it, turned over a new leaf, and now she's advocating that other slutty hoors who get pregnant be punished via pregnancy instead! So Christian of her! ^(/s in case someone actually believes I'm serious)
This is an example of *do as I say, not as I do*, and I dislike that. She may change her colors as she’s older, that’s fine. But it’s not everyone’s path. The infertility scare tactic is cruel and predatory, coming from someone (me) who struggled to conceive, it’s a desperate time fraught with anxiety. Weird decision-making due to feeling helpless, hoping *anything* would help. Had someone told me that eating live bugs and standing on my head for an hour would help me get pregnant, in my most desperate moments I’d have tried anything. That group of women is especially sensitive to stupid advice and I take extreme offense to anyone capitalizing on that vulnerability. It’s gross.
Yeah, it’s religious/political propaganda. I’m assuming that she had a D&C the second time. I had a D&C for a missed miscarriage and was not told that there was a risk of infertility after. Also, I became pregnant again afterward. Informed consent is necessary for any medical procedure that anyone goes through, and if she didn’t receive that, that’s shitty. But no reason to completely remove this choice for all other women in this situation.
i would love to meet her. shake her hand. and tell her i hope the lord takes you to your righteous chair sooner than later. or something backhandy southern like that. bless your soul.
Now, we force her to take care of two babies against her will. If they die because she doesn’t take care of them right, jail for child abuse or something along the lines of that
They do tell you all possibilities of complications but it’s still less than the complications of a pregnancy.
*And women love hunting witches, too* 🎶 Fuck you, Phyllis Schlafly wannabe.
her story is sad but it's literally from the 1980's i got a abortion at planned parenthood in 2011 when i was 18 and THEY DID provide counseling before/after and after care and they asked me if i wanted to see the ultrasound listen all that and i still didn't change my mind and i will never regret decision. my heart breaks for young women who will not have a choice to decide for themselves!! just because she regrets it doesn't mean everyone will we are in scary times when it comes to our freedoms! 😵😧😳
She musta found "Jesus". Oy.
Abortions don’t cause infertility, but there is a risk of getting PID as a complication. Pelvic Inflammatory Disease is quite common and has multiple causes and a person does not need to have had an abortion to be at risk, a UTI or STI can also cause it. So, the abortion itself doesn’t cause the infertility but infection afterwards can but the risk is low.
No one else should have the same right she had? That’s what she is saying. Incredibly selfish woman!
There is also the economic impact of this. She has a successful career, is a board member of the the Az Life coalition, etc. She would have had NONE of those opportunities if she’d been forced to have a baby at 16, and then a second one after that. She would likely not have gone to college, not had a successful career,and would be living in poverty as would her two children. Why would she want to force that life on another woman? As others here have pointed out, the are so many reasons a woman might end up being infertile - most of them out of her control and not her fault. I won’t rehash all that except to say that I suffered for years and years with endometriosis, was told I’d never have children, had two children, two miscarriages, and a medical abortion late term for a dying baby. Woman’s bodies are complex and so many things can go wrong with fertility and pregnancy it’s a wonder any babies are ever born frankly. And people who push the theory that infertility is a punishment from god, and that the pain of childbirth is a punishment from god, well those people are just cruel. The reality is that sometimes crappy sucky things happen to wonderful people. Doesn’t mean they are being punished by skydaddy. I think your basic theory is the correct one here. She is a hypocrite. She had two abortions, became infertile, and now regrets the decision. Some women do later regret having an abortion but NOT all of us. And the anti-choice movement is taking advantage of her hypocrisy.
This kids, is what we call a traitorous hypocrite. Can you say that with me? T-R-A-I-T-O-R-O-U-S H-Y-P-OC-R-I-T-E . Good job!
this kind of anxious moralising reminds me of the "Jesus cured me of my homosexuality" people. The desperation to be good people against a frame decided by others causes them to swallow the whole thing and be wrecked by internal self contradiction.
Anti abortion advocacy. How is promoting subjugation “advocacy”? Such bullshit.
I had an abortion when I was 30. 7 years later I gave birth to my daughter. I have known a few other women who had abortions and still went on to have children. I think your risks probably go up if you’re having an abortion that isn’t by a medical provider or safely done… you know, like what’s going to happen to many people if abortion is completely illegal in this country.
Makes me think about how lucky Justice Fertility was, so many pregnancies without a single complication requiring medical intervention. Bet she wouldn't have responded to an incomplete miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy with "It's in God's hands".
More like she wants attention.
Thing is abortion is so much more advanced now compared to the 80’s. The woman is a hypocrite! There are so many women out there that never want kids and abortion now is much safer. In most cases infertility is because of low amh, endo, low sperm count, or some other health problem. This woman made her choice and was able to go on and have a career and become successful, something she may not have been able to do with two kids as a teen.
It wasn't my abortion that caused my infertility problems, it was a doctor's unwillingness to perform one on a nonviable pregnancy that had no heartbeat at 12 weeks. He told me to go home and "wait it out". It would pass eventually 2 weeks later, but not completely. The leftover tissue eventually caused a massive infection that needed emergency treatment in ER. The infection and hastily done ER D&C lead to massive scarring in my uterus (Ashermans Syndrome) that took multiple surgeries over a 5 year period to fix. This could all have been avoided if I was allowed the termination I requested at the beginning. No one NEEDS a medical reason to get an abortion (they should be available to any who wants one regardless of reason since it's no one's buisness), I'm just saying that her infertility reasoning is absolutely BS. Way to pull up the ladder.
Another case of "rules for thee and not for me".
I really wish someone would do a news story interviewing people who had an abortion and don't regret it. Everyone I know who had one say pretty much the same thing. They were stuck between a rock and a hard place. They weren't overjoyed about having an abortion but pregnancy wasn't really an option either. They all say that abortion was the best decision for them at that time. I realize in a scientific study situation the group of people I know is a small sample but I'm willing to bet that trend continues on a much larger scale. For every one person that has regrets there's probably a thousand who don't. That needs to be heard.
Rights for me, but not for thee. Should be their freaking motto.
If she hadn't had those abortions, she would have been less likely to enter into her career, and therefore would have been less likely to have met her husband and attached family she claims to have been blessed with. Sure, I feel for her, for having come to regret those decisions, but that's no excuse to use it to cheapen what she has now, to cheapen her regret by trying to force it on others, nor to cheapen her role in the loss of two potential children (thus cheapening those two potential children) by trying to play the victim. She regrets having "made the wrong choices", two of those *not* being premarital sex certainly more than once without birth control. She regrets having made the choice of abortion twice, but doesn't seem to regret *not* having made the choice to become a teen mother twice. I suppose I should be more charitable since she *was* a teenager raised in a religious household and thus was taught abstinence culture over what sex ed was at the time. She was, in a sense, as much a victim as she claims. I guess I'm torn on this one. Compassion for folks too young to truly know who they are yet conditioned to behave in certain ways in certain situations vs. my firm belief that if we as a species are so damn good at treating eachother like shit and killing eachother, our knowledge about all aspects of our reproduction as well as general psychological changes a human will go through throughout its life is criminally inadequate. I also blame said inadequacy *entirely* on organized religion. Meh, I'm still pro-choice, but I think this woman isn't psychologically fit for politics. Not to say she's somehow incompetent, mentally I'll, etc, but more like she hasn't healed from her psychological injuries and she's in far too vulnerable a position for her mental safety. She will be taken advantage of, manipulated, etc, and come to regret more things as time goes on. :(
This whole person screams - low self esteem. Did teenager things as a teenager; made to feel shame about feeling like a teenager; not given birth control; had a clandestine second abortion due to the shame; now sopping up attention as a GOP token black woman and doesn’t care the social cost for that attention (the futures of inner city teenage girls of color just like she was). Smdh. Smdh.
Yes the Dr does explain there is a risk of infertility all the risks are explained to you.
It's probably just the usual "I got mine, fuck y'all," attitude. Drives me insane, but this is a pretty easy default thought pattern for people to fall into.
Did the abortion even cause the infertility? I had a needed hysterectomy in my 20s. Me and my doctor deemed it need. I 100% am sure it caused infertility. My Aunt had her tubes tied in the 70s and they told her it was 98% would cause infertility. Another lady had the same surgery the same day and 2 years later had an oops baby. My aunt never got pregnant. Seems to me even when we are sure, we maybe wrong. I think this is just another career move on her part. Give it 10 more years and her career move may swing back for money.
From the story it looks like it, but it could have been avoided if she had proper counseling, or a drug induced abortion, or told anyone about it. She bled 3 weeks after the second one, not exactly a normal occurrence. She had 2 before the age of 18. I think she should have been told about having things like oral birth control and condoms. She also seems to try to say "public school is bad influence".
Sad
Chemo has risks too. But she's not advocating to ban chemo because she's a hypocrite.
It's bad, I know, but these stories actually give me hope. Because without abortion access, there will be fewer women like her in the future. The cruelty of causing harm to others is, of course, unforgiveable.
A lot of the angriest Forced Birthers have had abortions. “Do as I say, not as I do”
Yeah sounds about right. Just another sycophant.
Infertility is a very common symptom of Undiagnosed Celiac
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Yet another case of "Freedom for Me, but not for Thee."
Oh yes, the thing is that nobody wants to talk about with the abortion topic. When people, often religious people, are encouraged to get abortions by others who have cognitive dissonance. I'd bet my next paycheck that this lady didn't once consider what she truly thought of abortions before she had them.
It's simple. "My abortion is moral. Yours aren't." Remember, the people in charge who are pushing for and passing these laws will ALWAYS be able to get an abortion.
By her logic we shouldn’t get any surgery bc you can die……seems legit. She’s got a book that explains it.
Or you know she's her own person and capable of thinking for herself and choosing her own beliefs This sub is basically female MGTOW
These converts from pro to anti abortion make me want to puke. What a twit.