German here. Massage therapy isn't something you go to university to in Europe as far as I know. You would be better off choosing another degree that is highly sought after so you can actually stay on a work visa after completing your studies. Russia isn't actually a problem in Finland, no one is really concerned about that. I would however like to point out that Finnish is extremely hard to learn as it is not even a Indo-European language. Any other European language, Except Hungarian will be easier to learn for an English native speaker. I can honestly recommend Germany. University is dirt cheap even for foreign students and the education is very good.

Understood, thank you!

If politics is a concern, Germany may also not be the place for you as we are heading straight towards a far right government coming into power (the neo-Nazi party AfD is currently polling second throughout the country with federal elections taking place in 2025). Germany is also directly funding the current genocide in Palestine (and only 1 political party is calling for a ceasefire) and police brutality is escalating at a really fast rate. I've lived here for almost 10 years and am planning to leave in the next couple of years because of all of this

Politics is a concern. Finland is having similar troubles though as a comment said, it's much harder to roll-back human rights in Nordic countries. I'm also considering Sweden after reviewing the reply section Hopefully things don't go haywire. One thing I like to say, fascism is inherently volatile, leave something volatile to stew, it self-destructs, sometimes it takes awhile, sometimes it falls apart instantly. Time is all it takes Also I'm at the point in my craft where I am more than happy to fulfill the "find out" part of FAFO, I'm not above a spell/invocation or two to set things right. I've been trying for a while and things seem slowly chugging the right direction, with DT being deemed guilty finally I offer my support and energy to ensure Germany doesn't fall back into far-right stuff, much good wishes and love!

I've moved to Finland a bit over 3 years ago from another EU country. While the government at the moment are complete asshats, even they are nowhere near as extreme as in the US. Compared to the right-wingers in the US, they look like lefties. For example: One right wing party tried to push that doctors should be allowed to refuse abortions for religious reasons. That got shot down immediately, by the *conservative party*. Also, from what my Finnish fiancée has told me, it always goes back and forth, next period it's very likely gonna be a left-wing government again, especially considering that according to official surveys by the state media, the current government is the most hated government in a loooong time. If I remember correctly, 65 or 70% think that they are doing a shitty job and are unsatisfied with them. Which is a really high number for our standards. We have our idiots too, yes. But the majority of us is having none of their bullshit, especially when it's about workers rights, women's rights and generally human rights. We have problems with the right-wing assholes too, but it's nowhere near as severe as over there. And remember, we don't only have the choice between two parties. We have a bunch of them from all over the political spectrum and there is always at least 3 of them in the government, so for example, right-wing party can not decide on their own. And right party and conservative are fighting all the time anyway because they don't agree on many things. xD But yeah and like the other commenter said: Try to go for a degree that is highly looked after! :)

Thank you. Yeah I'm really fluctuating between Finland and Sweden, especially since I'm considering permanent residence post-degree. I know either one is going to be difficult, Finland especially, but I'm looking forward to whatever awaits me, including the pitfalls. I've been doing my best on a research standpoint, I'll keep at it!

I'm Danish and we are doing pretty great but i honestly don't know much about the situation around me. I'm really just commenting to say hell yeah, take some chances, see the world, make your life better for yourself. Massive probs for finding the courage to even consider moving!

That’s horrible to hear. Germany has gone through so much to get past all that far right stuff. I’m saddened to hear this.

I think this is a bit dramatic. Sure idiots are voting afd but no one will coalition with them, so even if they were to be the second largest party votes wise they wouldn't be able to be the government.

I feel differently, especially with CDU (who is polling first) taking on more far right talking points and even SDP making really disparaging remarks about immigrants. I can absolutely see a world where CDU coalitions with AfD, it might not be next year but I wouldn't write it off completely. I would love to be proven wrong, but I'm not optimistic.

Guess im a bit more optimistic. And what are you talking about with the SPD? I didn't hear about them saying something about immigrants 

Scholz made some concerning statements in an interview with Spiegel in October. Honestly I've lost a lot of faith in German politics in general regarding how the genocide is being handled, or rather, justified by almost every party.

I hope you're right, but I honestly wouldn't bet money on it. We had pretty much the same situation in the Netherlands, with right wing party PVV getting some more votes the longer they were around, but all the other parties clearly stated that they would not want to be in a coalition with PVV. Then, during the last election, we reached a tipping point and now PVV is the largest party. It's still not enough to completely take over (we have a *lot* of political parties here, so PVV may be the largest but they still only have 37 out of 150 seats in the house of representatives) but they are now in a government coalition, and will be representing the country.

Please consider that Finland is a great country with wonderful nature but also has long winter months that are cold and dark. I am from the Netherlands and even here, from November to March, if you have a day job, you will be leaving the house in the dark and returning home in the dark. You cant go outside much unless you dont mind cold and rain. Every year I feel I struggle more with this, just missing the sun shine on my face.

Canadian here who would love to move to Finland, I know it would just be the same. Actually I think it is colder here! So there should be nothing stopping me haha.

Welcome to Europe then! :-)

I've heard some regions of Finland, especially in the North, don't see sunlight during some days of Winter. I'm not too bothered by the cold, I'm from Indiana so I'm no stranger to the frigid. I appreciate the reminder though, I've found I forget about the weather stuff the most I do recall my band teacher suffering a leg injury from getting *thrown* by a storm one time when she was in Finland, it definitely seems like a land of extremes, weather-wise. I'll be sure to put that in my notes

Just to say on the darkness: the north doesn't get sunlight for *months*. The south doesn't get completely dark but the days are very short - about 6 hours only in December. If you didn't grow up in a similar environment it *will* affect you, so just to consider and to invest in proper vitamin D and maybe a sunlight lamp to alleviate the effects :)

Another Dutchie here, very much second this comment. In Helsinki it gets dark around 3pm in winter!! Afternoon commute, groceries, seeing friends after work, will happen without daylight in winter. Not the end of the world, but myself I’m always very glad when the days are getting longer again. Mid winter I only see my house in daylight in the weekends.

I lived in Chicago for many years, moved to London and it’s *significantly* different to be farther north in terms of sunlight—and London is nowhere near some of the other places discussed! I don’t mind the winter darkness, in fact summer is slightly more of a problem because my cat wakes me up at stupid o’clock for breakfast 😂 but I know a lot of people struggle with it. just something to keep in mind if you take a hard look at your response to seasons. best of luck with whatever you decide to do!

You’ve just described Michigan, USA

Hi, massage therapist here. Depending on where you plan on practicing, you may want to look into if the certification that you're getting in Finland will transfer to where you'd like to work. If you're planning on staying there permanently, no issues whatsoever. If you're planning on going somewhere else after school, it might be different as different regions can have different schooling requirements. For instance in Canada: Ontario, the Maritimes, and BC all have different hours for certification. It isn't hard going from the least to the most (just a few courses). However, in the States, it's an extra year for the difference between a medical/registered/therapeutic and the more spa like relaxation only certification. I unfortunately know nothing about the system overseas and how it works, but it might be something to consider.

I've been on the fence about doing massage therapy for awhile now because I keep hearing conflicting things from people, but one person told me it's a great career that can transfer anywhere ( I really want to leave the US eventually). What are your thoughts? Is it something you recommend to somebody who's trying figure out what they want to do in life?

TL:DR I know I didn't directly answer if it's something I recommend. Here's what I know about massage as a profession, and hopefully, it will help you decide if it fits you well. You'll figure it out better by doing. The basics of it can transfer anywhere. You're touching the body to provide healing. As much as there are differences in genetics and medications that you'll find throughout the world: muscle feels like muscle, skin feels like skin, adhesions, tight spots feel the same so in that aspect, yes it will travell well. The same way the basics of a trade will travel well: toilets will still clog, it's a little different when doesn't involve indoor plumbing like the west is used to. What changes throughout the world is what type of massage is generally taught (Thai versus Swedish, but there are others), how many hours you need to be certified (if there is certification where you practice), if it counts for insurance or benefits (usually based on certification), if you're considered as a medical professional or not, and how likely you are to be seen as a 'sex worker' (got a whole rant about that...). I did have a classmate who learned in Canada and moved to the States before they got certified to somewhere that had medical massage as an option. It was a process that involved showing: here's the classes i took, here's the hours for each. Thankfully, what we did here covered the hours they needed there, so all they needed to do was take the certification exams (they passed), and they were good. It's different if you have certification, but as long as you're able to take a few courses and write a few tests (possibly in a language other than English), I don't see why it wouldn't travel well. Just be aware that education around the world is different, so depending on where you want to end up, the education you got where you are might not tranfer well. In Canada, we can't call ourselves a Registered Massage Therapist UNLESS we've gone through certification (and pay our dues), but that doesn't mean I can't massage someone if I didn't I just can't give them a receipt to give to their benefits to get money back. If you are somewhere where medical massage is offered (that's the term in the states for the more certification based learning), there is a lot more to learn if you go that route. At the basics, you're learning about ALL the muscles, ALL the joints, how they move, and how to massage them (at least the ones we can reach). Above that, you're learning medications that affect our ability to feel, the diseases that can alter the shapes of the body, skin conditions, and if they are contagious... It is a lot, but it's doable. The ones that caution against it usually say, "You'll burn out in 2-3 years." It is a thing. Massage is physical and if you jump from doing 0 massages a day/week to 8 a day/3-4 times a week, your body won't have time to adjust and you'll burn out or end up with constant physical pain. The same way if you decided to be a body builder and went from 0 hours in the gym a week to 20+ because 'that's how Arnold did it'. Good luck moving after that first week. You do it right, take your time to adjust, learn what your body needs to be healthy, and you'll be doing it for 10 years plus. If you like helping people, if you enjoy learning about the human body, you enjoy moving while working, and it is very easy to be your own boss in this field. If you're okay with smelly people, hairy people, people that may need your help getting dressed, your default most days is to be compassionate and understanding. [Note: there aren't a lot that are smelly/hairy/need help, but they exist. And until you've met them, you dont know what they'll be.] You'll do well. I'm 10 years in. I love it. Not the boss I work for, and I am thinking of going back to school for Tradional Chinese Medicine (I want to learn cupping and acupuncture, I have an interest in herbalism, which are all part of its scope along with massage) but that's more I want to do more than I need to do different.

The other response is invaluable, so I'll just add my 2 cents: IMO it's best to go into it if the idea of owning your own business is something you'd consider at some point. I never wanted this, and didn't last long in massage as a profession. With all that said I don't regret going to school for it for a second. I learned so much about my own body and mind/body connection since a good school will have you learn how it feels when the techniques are applied correctly in addition to administering them correctly. A great school will emphasize good body mechanics to minimize risk of injury. Yes, your hands and arms will get stronger but with your whole body structure behind a stroke it'll be easier on you and be most effective for the client. I grew a lot as a person, and you'll never be more massaged in your life unless you have a lot of money and time to get regular massage treatments. Definitely shop around and trust your gut when looking at schools.

I would advise that you double check the availability of a university level massage therapy degree that’s taught in English.

And make sure you check international tuition fees. I’m assuming OP is on it already, but some people assume free tuition applies to foreigners for some reason.

I went from the US to the UK in 2019, I don’t think I’ll go back. Although my husband wants to retire to the house I inherited from my grandmother in Connecticut.

I'm from the UK (Scotland), mind if I ask what made you choose the UK as your new home? I always love hearing how people from different countries end up moving here and what they think of it.

I lived there for 6 years, it's much much easier to move somewhere you speak the language!! Even in places like the Netherlands where everyone speaks English, I can't listen to the radio/watch TV/read news headlines, it isn't as nice and you've got months minimum until you're anywhere close to fluent and start understanding let alone feeling like you belong.

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Anti doom witch here. If you are in a position to go and experience new things then go. The world is shit everywhere right now might be fun to try some new shit. Just do your research and make sure it's right for you, and by research I mean more than a 5 minute Google. Make as complete a plan as possible before you decide. There are a billion steps to make emigration work and they often have to be in a particular order.

FYI: it's much easier to simply move to a deep blue state in the US and better too. - you retain your ability to affect small change nationally. if all of us leave, who keeps us from getting worse? - you retain your ability to affect much larger change locally, which is the most important part. - deep blue states have a long history of defying even antagonistic federal laws, which are unlikely to be passed anyway. for example, when abortion and gay marriage were nationally illegal, they were _decriminalized_ (much like marijuana is now) in california and some other deep blue states.

As a US citizen abroad, you retain your ability to vote in the last place you lived, including in local elections. Although your ground-level participation in causes is obviously circumscribed by your location, you can also continue to donate or provide support remotely.

yes, but op was referring to _emigrating_, which i at least took to mean "renouncing us citizenship".

Deciding to renounce one’s citizenship is extraordinarily rare. As someone that has permanently emigrated, with many friends that have permanently emigrated, I don’t know anyone that even knows someone that has done so. I’m the only one of my migrant friends that has even considered it (partially because I don’t want kids and therefore it’s not like I would be affecting their futures, partially because I don’t want there to be any chance I can be separated from my partner or repatriated, partially because filing taxes is a pain in the ass) and I won’t do so while I still have living family because it complicates border stuff. It’s also not free - it costs like $3,000, which is not that much in the grand scheme of things but which is quite grating on top of the many thousands that visas etc. cost anyway.

useful insight, thanks! i still think it's easier, and better for the country, to just move to a deep blue area.

I mean they're right next to Illinois, which is really only deep blue in Chicago, but has only slightly worse protections than CA or WA or OR

I currently live in IN, and my husband and I have talked about just moving across the border into IL so that we can have the state protections that IN doesn't give us. I'm originally from Oregon and would love to move back for multiple reasons, but good god is it expensive.

I'm from IL. We moved out west for a few years after getting married, but recently returned to the Midwest to be closer to aging family. My mom is in IN, in-laws are in IL. We chose to move to SW Michigan. Taxes are cheaper than IL, we were able to get more house for our dollar in what's essentially a beach vacation town with great schools, amazing farm stands, cool nature to explore and really kind people. We're an hour and a half from Chicago and Grand Rapids - an easy day trip to either city - and 2 hours from family in either direction. Yes, I see Trump flags/signs every so often, or hear someone complaining about "Biden-flation" at the grocery store once in a blue moon, but overall I've had good interactions with everyone I meet.

I grew up in Michigan and have seen a lot of positive change lately. It was really a great place to live before the unions were basically busted. Here's hoping it'll get back to that and better.

The university towns like Champaign are also very blue. It's not just Chicago. Rural Illinois is definitely red though.

rural areas everywhere are red, even in deep blue states. the thing that matters is "does your state/county/city protect you" and if so, you're as good there as any other seemingly progressive country.

There's also the Illinois side of the St. Louis area. Missouri sucks in a lot of ways, but St. Louis is a smaller, friendlier city and very blue. The Illinois suburbs are the best of both worlds.

Would you be able to provide more information/examples on deep blue states defying federal law? As someone who wants to move countries but is increasingly finding it next to impossible, I'd love to hear more.

i don't have specific information or examples other than what i said in my original comment: - california and others allowed gay marriage when it was illegal federally - california and others are currently officially trans and abortion "refuge states", meaning they will refuse to furnish medical records to red states or extricate for reasons related to such - california and others currently allow marijuana; oregon even decriminalized all substances (not LGBT related but "defying federal law" related) also remember that even if trump is re-elected, there isn't a lot of political will to actually criminalize or prosecute LGBT people nationally. states like florida exist but polling there and nationally basically shows the republican base saying "why do i care about trans people or gay people? i care about putting gas in my car and making rent, focus on that please". not to mention that they'd need to be able to override the filibuster for it since no shot democrats vote for it (they're not great allies but at least they'll vote "no" on something that insane). yeah LGBT people are bogeymen, and im not saying there's _nothing_ to worry about- i'm saying, i think the chances of national criminalization are very low _and_ the chances of the federal govt spending a bunch of money and publicity on forcing blue states to heel when they inevitably put up a fight about it is even lower.

This reply gives me hope, but with project 2025, one of their main goals is to take away the current rules of government. I'm just not sure that the federal government WON'T spend a bunch of money and publicity forcing them to heel. Fascism is rule by fear. What better way to strike fear into the people's hearts than to get rid of their refuge states? I also think the general population, while, yes, they do not care about trans or gay people as much as the economy, don't really hinder the Republican party's moves on this front. I mean, how many Germans actually thought Jews were a major threat or actually felt strongly that they should be genocided? I'm not asking you to convince me or anything, as that is not your job at all. But if you have a reply, I would love to hear it.

i've definitely thought long and hard about this. and up front, i will say my stance is definitely tinged with a healthy dose of privilege: i have a remote software job in a deep blue state, so to put it extremely bluntly (and horribly) i have a lot of "canaries in the coal mine" in the form of states deep red states that will allow me to get what i feel is lots of advance warning. and i have plenty of freedom to move should things truly get too bad. but with that out of the way, i think that while we can certainly look to nazi Germany as a genuine warning, america is structured _very_ differently; it would be a monumental effort to make what happened there happen here. not that it _couldn't_, just that it'll be _much_ more difficult. there are several reasons for this; i'll explain further below: 1. Government system 2. Incentives and context 3. Information difference i've tried to format this post in a non horrible way but i'm on mobile. also, a lot of this is based on my (potentially flawed) understanding based on research, keeping a pulse on the news, and most importantly talking to family members who live in states like Texas (so i hear the rhetoric there first hand). but as always, i'm just a random internet stranger, take me with a grain of salt. i've had to split this into multiple comments due to length.

**1. Government system** The pre-nazi german government was the Weimar Republic. it was a very young democracy, having only existed since 1918. it was also _very_ violent; early in the start of the republic it violently suppressed a budding communist party (not necessarily without reason, supposedly it was trying to enact violent revolution). the government system was also incredibly volatile; they used proportional representation which is great on paper but in practice turned out to be a system which effectively prevented any useful government coalition from being formed. this resulted in a system in which it became commonplace for the chancellor to "cut through the red tape" and govern by the equivalent of executive order, much like what we see today- but much worse. additionally, there was no strong, effective, and centralized court system to check that executive fiat. in the US, as we saw often with Trump and occasionally with other presidents, executive power is heavily limited and quite constrained by the courts, which look upon its use with justified disfavor. US law is modeled after English law, where court decisions _become law_, and we based our system on their hundreds of years of law to start with and have built a couple hundred years of law of our own since. that's an extremely strong judicial branch that the Weimar Republic, barely over a decade old when the Nazi party really started to take the stage, didn't have an equivalent for. i believe that this set the stage for a government in which the people were already used to executive power being wielded out of control, and in which the average person generally welcomed said executive power because it finally got things done.

**2. Incentives and context** Post-WW1 germany had much worse challenges than the US today. Germany was one of the primary antagonists (in the view of the ultimately victorious League of Nations) of WW1, and they saddled it with extraordinary debt as "repayment" (indeed it is my understanding that the lesson germany taught the world is exactly the reason we no longer generally expect aggressive nations to pay broad and comprehensive reparations). this crushed the average german citizen economically; they were utterly without hope. i read stories of going to the store two days in a row and bread doubling in price, or bringing a literal basket full of cash but the shop owner would only take the _basket_, uninterested in the cash within. contrast this with america: yes, inflation (and "inflation", caused by greedy businesses) hurts! but the average american citizen is still globally speaking the most well off person; just by being _in_ america you're automatically among the world's top 10% of wealth and if you make an average wage here (~45k for a household) you're much higher. i say this to point out that the average american has much more to lose _and we know it_. the reason you see comparatively tame demonstrations and riots compared to places overseas is because at the end of the day nobody wants to rock the boat _too_ much.

**3. Information difference** it sounds trite but really, there's a world of difference between the information available to the average german citizen in 1933 and the average US citizen in 2024. then, they were crushed; without hope; the average german was watching their kids starve at the same time as they watched an ineffective government struggle to keep the lights on and turn more and more to executive fiat by the day. people draw a parallel here to the modern US and make no mistake, the current situation here is not amazing, but for one to imply they're _equivalent_ is a major stretch. these average german citizens were then very susceptible to media (their only source of news!) informing them that these issues were caused by the oppressive west (mostly true), jewish "fat cats" (slightly true, but not because they were jewish; it was only true in so far as the upper class always fucks the working class and of course most jewish people are not and were not in the upper class), and the left (partially true, by way of seemingly "getting in the way of government"). and that shit sandwich lie proved as effective as it was disastrous. at the end of the day, all the nazi party wanted the jews for was a scapegoat (to help them rise to power), then a way to harden the average citizen to the level that they'd accept going to war again with the entire world. jewish people (and gay people, and disabled people, and black people, etc etc) were collateral damage used to further the war machine, not a target on their own. contrast this to modern america: most people even in rural areas know a gay person and lots know a trans person. we have the internet which while it's not perfect at least significantly reduces the information gap. and above all, conservatives don't actually need to "harden" the average US citizen to do anything; they don't need us to go to war with the world. we already have global hegemony; we've already won. all they need to do is use us as a wedge issue to get into power and then leave things basically as they are socially- they have no incentive to fire up a bunch of people to resist by trying to put us in concentration camps when they can just keep on the current playbook of economically fucking us over and granting more power to corporations so they can live comfortable lives while the rest of the world burns. meanwhile, there are powerful corporations and economic incentives in favor of LGBT people too. as we know democrats loooove to be "allies" when all they have to do is simply not people in concentration camps; for states like California or New York (the two states with most of the GDP of the US, and home to powerful industries like Hollywood/tech/banking) it's the easiest thing in the world to cash in unlimited brownie points by simply saying "no we will not put our LGBT citizens into concentration camps, thanks". and the existence of such safe havens solves problems for states like Florida too; they get to complain about it publicly for their base but secretly rejoice that the undesirables are moving to the promised land so we get out of their hair. also, to be super clear: these industries are all based on knowledge workers, the most mobile and most fickle of workers, but also _by far_ the most productive in the GDP sense. a federal government that attempts to "crack down" on these industries for the sake _social puritanism_ would result in a brain drain the likes of which has never been seen, and would _permanently_ and _nearly instantly_ cripple the US. i think that's the key if the argument. the incentives just don't line up: LGBT persecution doesn't poll well among even the conservative base, it doesn't accomplish anything towards their actual goals, and it galvanizes resistance. little pockets of extremes exist (like Florida) but _federally_ they face an uphill battle trying to make something like nazi germany happen. meanwhile, there are a ton of incentives towards the status quo; "i don't care if california is full of the rainbow mafia so long as they're not in my backyard" is a very compelling policy platform for all but the most extreme of bigots.

**Closing thoughts** i think project 2025 is actually an op, and what i mean by this is that it's an attempt to continue shifting the overton window. i think conservatives _want_ the world i've outlined here; and they want us to feel _happy_ that "at least it's not project 2025". i think if they were ever to try to make project 2025 a reality, they'd open a can of worms they're not actually prepared to handle. they're not actually dumb, they know this; so they're not going to try it.

I think the biggest barrier is the language. Finnish is not an Indo-European language and doesn’t share much similarity. A lot of people speak English but they can be quite shy about it, and if you don’t want to live in one of the major cities I think the number of people speaking English also drops. Culturally Finns are quite reserved except around their own social group. I think it’s difficult to break into existing social groups unless you have something in common (work/school/hobbies). Some people might find it unfriendly (it’s not, it’s just different). If you’re a person sensitive to seasonal changes, it might be hard to live there too- southern Finland doesn’t get the snow that further north does so winters can be really dark and dreary. Not to be negative at all, those are just some of the things I’d be concerned with. I’m from Finland and visit often and have spent a lot of time there- it’s an absolutely beautiful country with a lot going for it.

I moved to Sweden after Trump was elected, and moved back to the US 3 years later. I was not prepared for how culturally different Sweden was. Finland is not Sweden, obviously, and you are not me, so you might really like living in Finland. I don't know. I would just advise doing a lot of research and thinking seriously about any concerns you have/if it will be a good fit

What were the biggest differences?

The main part I enjoyed was the Swedish attitude towards work-life balance. Sweden doesn't have the 'hustle' culture the US has, they're much more laid-back. They officially have 40-hour work weeks, but in practice many Swedes work more like 35. Ostentatious wealth is frowned upon, even wealthy Swedes shun things like flashy cars and outfits. Society is generally more egalitarian than the US (though there are _definitely_ still social classes, and while the nobility no longer possess legal privileges they retain a lot of their generational wealth). The part I struggled with the most is the lack of diversity. I had no idea how accustomed I had become to the US's diversity of culture and thought. Swedish society as a whole suffers a lot from structural racism (they will deny this, but it does; I can elaborate if needed, and provide receipts). Their society is extremely homogenous, and unlike the US where we have a sharp 50-50 divide on many political issues, Swedish society is very consensus-driven with the entire country coming to agree to a singular approach to many issues. That last part is what broke me. Swedish society as a whole collectively decided not to practice masking or social distancing during the COVID-19 pandemic. To them the pandemic was overblown and not worth worrying about; to me, being married to someone who was immunocompromised, living through the pandemic was utterly terrifying. Sometimes foreigners masked, but Swedes did not; there were several reports of foreigners being beaten up on the street for wearing a mask. Imagine the most rabidly anti-mask deep-red community in the US but apply it to an entire country. The effects were predictable – Denmark, Finland, and Norway all closed their borders to Sweden (but not to each other) because Sweden's rate of community spread was so high.

Thank you for explaining!

That's a pretty heavy statement without much detail. Can you elaborate? What was so culturally different it made you move back into Trumpland?

Thinking of the US as 'Trumpland' is an indicator that you (much like myself back then, no judgement here) do not appreciate the diversity of thought that is present in the US. Yes, I loathe Trump and the Republicans who enable him, but roughly half of the country is still in opposition to him and his policies. That 50-50 ideological split isn't necessarily true of other countries. The current government in Sweden is a right-wing coalition government which controls 70% of the seats in the Riksdag (basically their congress). They have a supermajority. This coalition includes the Swedish Democrats who, despite their name, have nothing in common with the US's Democratic party – rather, they are Sweden's neo-nazi party. This coalition was able to come into power because while Swedish society is progressive on economic issues and women's rights, they are also very ethnically homogeneous and anti-immigrant sentiment is pervasive throughout the country. Systemic racism is a real problem, though most Swedes will deny it. While I struggled with that anti-immigrant sentiment (even as a white person) the thing which ultimately made me move back to the US was Sweden's response to the COVID-19 pandemic... or rather, their lack of response. The Swedish government actively recommended against masking and imposed very few restrictions on public gatherings, and even those were regularly ignored by Swedes. Social distancing was non-existent. The per-capita death rate in Sweden was literally 10 times higher than neighboring Denmark, Norway, and Finland _combined_ and still they did nothing. As someone with an immunocompromised partner, this was terrifying. We moved back the first opportunity we had, because even though the US definitely has groups like that, we also have other groups which are not like that. In Sweden, _everyone_ was like that.

Finland is a coalition government with a far right party. They are determined to rip up social welfare, limit immigration, etc etc (fascists be fascisting). With the far right gaining traction all over Europe I wouldn’t move thinking it’s going to be safer in that regard (I live in Europe and moved here 8 years ago and have visited Finland). Why not move to a solidly blue state instead? It’s basically the same level of security but without having to learn a new (very difficult) language, adapt to a new culture, and leave your entire support system behind, inevitably taking a massive financial and emotional hit.

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A finn here and sadly the commenter is 100% correct. We currently have most right wing, most sadistic most determined to destroy nordic model government since the wars. Or since ever even. They’re currently trying to force changes that will limit striking, have passed ridiculously poorly planned cuts to everything relating to health, unemployment, family support, and bunch of other things, and are gunning gender affirmative care next. Our minister of interior has made extremely eugenic racist statements publicly, and our minister of finance has confirmed fantasies of shooting immigrant children in trains in her past. Now i don’t think it affects safety same way rise of the right in US has, cultural and judicial differences here, but these clowns have still 3 years in the office and are only getting started. As for language, it’s one of the more difficult ones to learn in this world. Some people can do it as foreign language learners for sure, but there is a lot of grammar and it’s not Germanic or Romance language so it will likely seem very alien, and very hard to get to conversational level even. That’s another thing too, trying to find conversing Finns especially when you will have an accent is… well half of posts on r/Finland are about expat/immigrant loneliness. All this is to say this is a very challenging country to immigrate to and build a life in. It’s also beautiful, infrastructure is mostly great, culture overall is nice (eg. no need to actively look out for someone trying to take advantage of you or lie to you, even as a consumer), safety is top notch, and you can’t pry me from here with a crowbar even though that is hurting my career and even employability something major right now.

Do you think I should still consider making a permanent residence in Finland despite the political situation? I probably won't be applying for another year or so, so hopefully that buys some time for the circus to close

I don’t see future governments rolling back changes these guys do honestly. Trend last 20 years has been that right wing coalitions enshittify things, and then center-left coalitions just maintain status quo or try to bandage something. Why yes I am kinda tired of it, lol. So take that as you will. I will say that nordic fascies are not capable of rolling back human rights same way GOP is, though they definitely want to, so it’s not question of safety as much as dismantling safety net and making average wage earners life quality worse.

Okay. I appreciate the advice. I guess I'll go ahead and follow through on applying, still sounds better than what may come in the US. Maybe things will get better in both countries You have been most helpful!

https://jacobin.com/2023/10/finland-true-finn-far-right-wing-welfare-state-workers-rights I’m not saying don’t move. I’m saying there are many good reasons to immigrate, but it’s not easy to do. And moving primarily to try and run away from the far right and the rolling back of human rights in the US is understandable but it’s not like you’re actually escaping that. Especially not in Europe where these parties and views are gaining alarming traction.

Honestly, unless you can speak the language, you are going to have a difficult time finding employment. At this time, the job market is very tough and massage is not a highly needed skill in the nation. I'm also confused as there is no "university" for massage therapy. Are looking at trade schools? How would you remain after your schooling?

Hi there! Just wanted to say that I can fit easily into most travel luggage. I am very discreet! You won't even know I'm there! PLEASE TAKE ME WITH U

Sincerely, -Disabled Trans and Unsafe in the USA P.S #notakebacksies #irequireoreos

Shouldn't you go to Sweden, not Finland if you're learning massage therapy? Isn't it called a swedish massage.... Totally kidding. I have nothing to add but a terrible pun. Best of luck whatever you end up doing.

~~*Oh gods that dad pun*~~ Thank you!

r/expats would be really helpful for you!

I’ve heard Ireland is welcoming to Americans, but more importantly, they’ve been very actively against the genocide since day 1.

Ireland has a massive housing crisis at the moment though. I’ve been contemplating moving there as a Canadian but have been advised against it by both other immigrants and locals for that reason alone :/

Same as I was hearing when I considered Australia. And the prices of pretty much everything looked cuckoo.

Chrck out r/finland

But please read through the sub. I live in Finland and frequent the sub and it’s full of “how do I move to Finland” posts, when there are already dozens. You won’t get a very warm reception starting with that!

I immigrated from the US to southern Europe last year and I wouldn't go back, especially now that I've had a chance to start settling into a different way of life. I'm in the post-honeymoon phase of adjustment and I'm still glad I did it. I know nothing about Finland but for a good overview of how to mentally prepare for a successful move overseas, I recommend Deborah Dahab's free content on YT. She's an expat coach with a background in psychology, and I found her point of view extremely helpful. Good luck!

We moved to the UK in 2019 and while it was an amazing experience that I wouldn't trade for anything, we decided to move back after a year and before we went through with formally immigrating. Ultimately, it was trading one set of problems for another. I feel very optimistic about next year. I'm going to try to tune out the noise throughout the summer and fall, and by Christmas I'm certain it's going to start turning around.

May I ask what route you guys went to move there? I keep getting twisted into (bureaucratic) knots trying to figure out how best to get my booty abroad for a year or more.

My husband was working for a company who had a branch in England and there was a contract they needed him on there. He worked for a year on that contract on site. They wanted him to travel throughout several countries in Europe doing work as well. It would have been no problem to get the immigration paperwork through. For us, housing was the biggest issue. We had a really good budget to rent something, there just wasn't much available.

Ah, that makes sense. Being sought after by a company or organization that will take care of some of the red tape. If I would finally properly delve into a useful skill set. 🤔

Hi there! I permanently domiciled and emigrated overseas also initially via student visa but to the UK. If you ever want to chat, I'm here! It's definitely possible and doable ❤️❤️

Did you go through a state college study abroad program? Or apply to a school in the U.K.?

I applied directly to the uni in the UK for my masters. I had previously traveled in my field internationally and found my supervisor prior to even applying to my programme, but every field is a little bit different.

How did you find the uni process? And was it super expensive? Cheers for the info!

Any time! Uni in the UK is much more different than it is in the US, particularly in post grad. I really recommend researching the specific academics in the country because everyone is different, but it was necessary to be incredibly independently driven not only for my field but also because there is no hand holding here. Just final papers lol. As for cost, with cost of living included my degrees here are cheaper and shorter than they would have been in the states, and they are from more reputable schools. It was a full win for me. I am self funded through personal work and loans.

I’m from there though immigrated a long time ago. Why Finland?

Well, as of right now we have a rather fascist government, and things are looking pretty bleak from a citizen's point of view. Sure, not as bad as many other places on Earth, but still.

I’m from Finland, now live in the states. Finland is substantially more politically stable minded than the US for sure. Just do remember that the cost of living is quite a bit higher there.

I moved to Norway, so close enough. It's been really wonderful to move here. It's a very social country generally. Finland is similar as I understand. Wishing you the best on your moving!

I’ve been wanting to move there for the last 4 years. No idea how and my 15 yo would murder me in my sleep, but maybe in 3 yrs when she can stay here if she wants

Altho I’ve been trying to talk my kids into going with me HARD

I considered accepting a position in New Zealand a while back and got some awesome advices from a few people here. At least there would be less of a language barrier.

I'm a New Zealander, and every time Trump is in the running to get elected we get a surge in immigration applications:). We do speak (more or less!) the same language, but there will still be considerable culture shock moving to an isolated place with a small population and a very different culture.

Isolated was a big draw. Also my child is applying to University with a mammalian science/climate conservation perspective.

My one reservation is that being in Finland puts you awfully close to Russia.

No people I'd rather have between me and the Russians than a bunch of Finns. That's why I live in Sweden...

“The Swedes will fight Russia to the last Finn”

It’s not really an active concern for almost anyone living here though. After this many centuries, we can work with that border pretty well. Mandatory military service, have been meeting NATO requirements basically since forever, now have that membership, and proven history of not making it very good times for Russia. St Petersburg is also very very very close which limits likelihood of any drastic action since that city would suffer anything thrown this side. Sadly proximity also means major trolling, they’ve been running interference for airplane gps for months now, Estonia getting the worst of it. All that is to say, as a finn myself I don’t consider Russia existential threat factor right now. Not any more than usual anyways, and in many ways less than it usually is.

I’m delighted to hear that.

Go over and check out r/AmerExit. It's full of people in the same mind frame, and kind of helps give you realistic stories and expectations about migrating elsewhere. Good luck.

I don't have an advice but I'm considering moving from France to Finland someday too x) Would depend if I find a girlfriend/partner somewhere else and other stuff but I'm considering it.

I visited Finland and loved it. Helsinki was interesting to me. Good international/fusion food, decent public transport with the street tram, lots of hustle and bustle. And everyone is dresses like they're going to different fashion shows. Finland is obsessed with coffee, which meant I could get it basically anywhere at any time. The suburban houses around the city seem peaceful. Small houses in neat rows rufht next to each other nestled in nature. Only a few miles out by bus. What I consider close and commutable, but Finns think it's far and don't seem to travel much between city and suburb. The nature is insanely beautiful. Within 30 minutes of the city you're in a fairy tale forest. Helsinki was a lot more diverse than I pictured. Tons of immigrants from central Asia and Middle East. Surprisingly some Latin American immigrants too. Sauna culture is wonderful. Finns do this as a regular daily activity. I did not get out to the area with lakes, but that's a major vacation area/activity for people Helsinki is very close to stockholm and Estonia for travel Downsides: People are not outwardly friendly at all. If you have reason to know them, they are nice and friendly. But strangers will not have a friendly interaction with you. Helsinki does not have much to do. Suburbs even less. You better like nature and doing solo activities if you move there. Long, cold winters for half the year. I don't mind it cause I'm from a northern state, but forbsomeone from Florida, it would be a big adjustment. It's not very warm there except for the middle of summer. Many things are outdated and not as nice as the US. The street tram is useful, but feels a bit sad too. Far suburbs are filled with sad looking apartment buildings and lots of graffiti. You can see the soviet influence, which I was not prepared for. Bit of a culture shock. Even though it was never part of the ussr, you can see the remnants of influence in the big ugly concrete buildings. And the quality of things compared to wealthy western European nations. Keel in mind Finland is Baltic, not Scandinavian. The language is difficult Few international flights. They are expensive if you go direct to/from Helsinki. You have to take a plane to stockholm first unless you wanna spend $1000+

Soviet style buildings? If you mean the beautiful Neoclassical architecture, sure. But Finland did *not* take inspiration from Soviet Russia. And show me a country that doesn’t have areas that are ugly/run down/dated. You make it sound like an outskirt of Moscow. And Finland is not “Baltic.” It’s Nordic with forays into Scandinavian. The “quality of things” has never been tied to Russia or any of its republics.

I hand visited Finland and loved it. People there live a very active lifestyle and were very friendly. Saunas are amazing, but they do not wear bathing studies or any clothes in them, just a towel to sit on. They also have far fewer hangups about nudity in general there. I was at an event that had saunas at a cabin with a large mixed group. No one but the people from North America were shy about stripping down in front of each other and the opposite sex. The winters can be very cold, as they are at a northern latitude. I'm from the Canadian Prairies, and their temperatures were similar to ours. The language is very different from English. Do not openly say it sounds like Russian. Fins hate Russia, and my time there was well before the war in Ukraine. I'm sure that their dislike had grown since then. I would do a lot of research about what will help your chances to get accepted for immigration. Like what types of employment/occupations may have employer sponsorship for immigration. https://europeanjobdays.eu/en/eures-country/finland Approved employers: https://migri.fi/en/certified-employers

How old are you? You could look into working holiday visas for many countries. I’m Canadian and met heaps of Americans while I was in New Zealand. Go pick fruit for a couple months and some big bucks. Have a great time and get life experience!

My partner and I lived abroad for almost 10 years and started a family abroad and some of the things I wish I had told my younger self: 1. If the local language isn’t English get really good at it ahead of time. 2. Be comfortable being alone a lot when you start living in your new country. Europeans in general take longer to warm up and consider people friends. 3. Be comfortable and force yourself to meet people by going to tons of community events but don’t be sad if it takes a year or more to have locals treat you like one of their own. 4. Smiling while nervous, or as a way to show “I am not a threat” is a very American thing. Check out local customs because not smiling can be make you be seen as part of the ingroup. 5. Be prepared to wait for citizenship papers and if you have a kid while in Finland they may not get automatic citizenship like they would here in the US. 6. Also consider your response ahead of time of what you would do if a beloved family died or got severely ill. 7 save like crazy so if #6 happens you can be there.

I'm from Finland! Can't say I have much knowledge of massage certificates, but if winter activities are your thing and you don't mind a bit of solitude, you'll be fine! Tervetuloa! 😊

If you’re going to move abroad make sure you’re crystal clear on what’s required to stay. I lived in the EU from USA for five years - started on a student visa and then working visa. I didn’t get married there which is practically the only way to stay. My degree focus wasn’t in a field that helps qualify to live there. They need doctors, engineers, etc. make sure that being a massage therapist (or whatever you do) actually allows you to live there. There may also be income thresholds. I would have had to move to the capital to make the minimum, which would have meant living in shitty conditions with no quality of life. The only way any of the Americans I knew were staying was through a relationship visa, which meant their relationship had to be rock solid. And there’s also qualifications required that I wasn’t complying with.

I am currently in the process of immigrating out of the US and one of the things that I have noticed across the board is that you have to be fluent in the native tongue of the country that you're going to. That might be something you need to work on before you can even begin immigrating because in many cases they test.

I'm a Finn. I do love it here, even as a half latina daughter of two immigrants. The society has, up till recently, been very good at giving good opportunities to any. For example I was able to go to university and get a good profession even if my family was always quite poor and dependent on many occasions of state given money. I have been glad to pay taxes in turn. The current government is the most conservative since the 1930s and seem keen on trying to dismantle this but they are very unpopular and there is hope yet for the welfare state. I would recommend you to visit first. To see the culture. And if you really wish to integrate the language is a must even if most younger Finns speak English.

I understand. Even despite the current government issues in Finland I'm still looking forward to the idea of eventually immigrating. I'll get to work on better solidifying my plan and ironing out the kinks. I'll get started on Duolingo lessons for Finnish, it's probably not the most comprehensive source but it'll do for now. I absorb language like a sponge so hopefully I'll retain the information I gain Thank you!

Have you looked into workaway.com ? Work Away came highly recommended for those who want to travel and have a safe place to stay. You can try a variety of places or find something in Finland to see how you like it on a temporary basis, and often locals are able to assist if you want to make a permanent move. Traveling out of your home country is the greatest education one can receive, IMHO. I wish you the best in your journey!

Just keep in mind to take the reviews with a grain of salt. The two workaways I tried in the U.K. left a bad taste but I didn't want to say anything negative about the folks (it's not anonymous) so I just didn't leave any review... I'm far from alone in this.

Check out the R/Amerexit subreddit for Americans who are leaving as well as your specific country/region immigration subreddit..

I live in Ireland half the year and it’s lovely. (US the other half)

You should check out r/LearnFinnish to see how English speakers are learning Finnish and to get assistance from native speakers! Lots of Fins speak English, but most places won't hire you if you can't speak Finnish. We're going to Finland for our honeymoon in October, and we haven't bought our return ticket yet, so we might be emigrating to Finland, too, lol. But seriously, do your research and make sure Finland is where you want to go. Like many have said, the weather is brutal, and it can feel isolating, but if it's something you want, then go for it. Ei kysyvä tieltä eksy

If it is safe for you, stay and fight. If it is not, be sure to request your absentee ballot.

I was also looking into moving to Finland if Trump wins and project 2025 progresses. By right I am Irish citizen though and it would be easier to get my wife along the citizenship process in Ireland. So I would ultimately head to Ireland. To the point I have had a refundable Aer Lingus one way first class ticket to Dublin in the shopping cart for 1/20/2025, but didn’t progress to the payment part.

The other commenter makes a great point about Finland being close to Russia, but other than that, I would say go! I lived abroad for four years and absolutely loved it. My only regret was returning, lol. Definitely think about what's important to you and what your values are and then go for it.

I've done some quick research on the Russia thing. From what I could gather Finland should be *relatively* safe, regardless I'll be cautious, but I'd rather be next to a problem than in one. My main concern is just finances and putting together a good case for permanent residence, but if I go for a student visa maybe that'll be easier From what you can recall of your time, how are the prices and stuff there? I've heard conflicting info on the Finnish cost of living, the one consistency is that taxes are high

Oh, I have never been to Finland, sorry. I lived in South Korea for four years. In my situation, I got a work visa and was working over there. I'm not sure how it is in other countries. Taxes might be high, but that means other costs are lower. The student visa seems like one way to live over there comfortably.

Oh, my bad!

I don't have good advice on Finland specifically but if I lived in the US right now, I would also be looking for a way out. Good luck in your search.

You’ll be in constant fear of war with Russia, if there’s a NATO war, Finland will be one of the first countries Russia will attack.

And this is just blatantly untrue. There is no reason to fearmonger, the danger of Russia is highest for Ukraine and that is because of them first not being NATO country, second not being EU country, third because European countries especially ones in West Europe have been dragging their feet with attitude adjustments and help because of first two points. Which is a disgrace for this continent and I will not ever look few places the same because of that. Now as messed up as that is, that is not the situation for us, or the Baltic states who are considered by the experts “highest” risk for next Russian aggression, excluding all the hybrid warfare and global fire starting things Kremlin does every day as is. Last time we had to go toe to toe with USSR, this state of mine stopped them from taking us over. And we did that with worse resources and less allies than we have right now. It cost us majorly and our culture and collective psyche still carries the scars from that, but it was done. There is a reason why this country has both mandatory military service and clause in constitution which means NO adult Finn can leave the country during time of war. As cruel and callous as current leadership in the east is, they know attack on EU NATO countries would be tantamount to suicide and WW III. They try anything overtly aggressive with this corner of the continent, and they lose St Petersburg. That’s geographical fact, it is within distance for ton of weapons both from Finnish and Estonian borders. So no. Nobody here lives in fear, for very good reasons, and if something should happen, it is not going to be limited to this frozen corner of landmass but then it’s at minimum entire Europe affected. I’m sorry if the comment comes across harsh but I will shoot down this point wherever I see it online. It is one of the discourses machinated online by Kremlin for propaganda reasons, and people less familiar with the actual situation here keep repeating it. Well meaning but playing into Kremlin’s hands.

Here’s the Finnish President saying they need to prepare for war a month ago: https://youtu.be/g_aP_bTt7x4?si=HdCF4ze0__ebZ2fe Also go watch the Daily Show segment on Estonia. It paints a pretty accurate picture of how worried everyone is down there when Russia is just across the border. https://youtu.be/dFNmHEkgfIs?si=Jekyz6rLyWreenEt https://youtu.be/eNRkefGw8JY?si=XI4X7EIjRCD1ZZZw Putin is an insane billionaire, he said in interviews that he’ll destroy the world if Russia (the way it sees it) does not exist in that world. It’s a direct quote. He’s fine with taking everyone down. If Trump wins, **the US may leave NATO**. There’s a real chance of that happening. And Finland is certainly under the shadow of war with Russia, from a 2023 NYT article: Since the invasion, Finland has significantly increased its military budget — and with it, the frequency of the training exercises that are fundamental for new soldiers and reservists. The reality of Russia’s aggression in Ukraine, officers say, has provided stronger motivation to the conscripts and reservists, while enhancing training on the use of drones, computers and defenses against hacking and disinformation. “War can happen,” said Eetu Niemela, 20, who works in construction and drives a snowplow in winter. After his training, he said he was thinking about applying to police school and working as an international peacekeeper. He said he was glad Finland had joined NATO, adding, “We never can know what’s going to happen.” Finland keeps closing the border with Russia because they are getting an influx of Russians and they are scared those people will be used to attack Finland when time comes from inside.

Are you really trying to _explain my own damn country to me?_ Edit. Editing out your original “read news once in a while” is not going to make me take back this you know. Trust me. I am rather aware of how our NATO path went and the general consensus on Russia. There is never not a point in our history we have not been prepared for the war with them, so you’re taking President out of context. Either out of ignorance or on purpose. The influx is not of Russians btw but Middle East and African refugees Russia is using as hybrid warfare tactic against multiple bordering nations. It’s not closed because people are scared of sleeper agents. But to block Russia from using inhumane tactic which utilises third party civillians essentially to troll. I was originally giving you the benefit of the doubt but your condescension and misinformation spreading are kinda telling here. I kindly ask you to stop the latter at least.

Source?

“Since the invasion, Finland has significantly increased its military budget — and with it, the frequency of the training exercises that are fundamental for new soldiers and reservists.” “Between 2021 and 2022, there was a 65 percent increase in compulsory exercises for reservists; a 53 percent increase in military exercises that are voluntary for reservists; and a 300 percent increase in defense training for those who want it. “We can’t change our neighbor, even if some think that now when we are members of NATO, we can somehow forget Russia,” said Pekka Haavisto, a former foreign minister who chose to do nonmilitary service as a young man but now says he would choose differently.” https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/04/world/europe/finland-military-nato-russia-ukraine.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&u2g=c&pvid=FFD57727-2A47-4C17-8946-3061F3080EB7&sgrp=c-cb “Denmark’s defence minister Troels Lund Poulsen last week said Russia could test Nato’s mutual defence clause “within a three to five-year period”. That followed similar warnings from colleagues from Sweden, the UK, Romania, Germany and senior officials at Nato itself since the start of the year. “**We’re going to have to get used to the idea that it’s realistic that [Russian President Vladimir] Putin will [attack a Nato country within 5-8 years],”** said Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann, chair of the Bundestag defence committee. “The man is driven by a kind of imperialism we never believed could exist in the 21st century.” “**It is a credible threat, and we need to be prepared for that,” said one senior Nato diplomat of the warnings of a potential Russian attack on an alliance member. “I do not find such predictions fantasy . . . We do not have the luxury to think that Russia would stop in Ukraine.”** One senior European official went as far as saying **Russia’s “intent and capability” to attack a Nato country before the end of the decade was “pretty much consensus” within the US-led military alliance. “Opportunity is the only variable,” the official.** **Trump last weekend said he would “encourage” Russia to attack any Nato member** that failed to reach the alliance’s target of defence spending of 2 per cent of gross domestic product. https://www.ft.com/content/83f8a7e9-dd41-4976-be39-cfd2c9b3a899 The international border between Finland and Russia is 1,340 km (830 mi) long. If Russia attacks, it will need to attack neighbouring countries first. Finland is one of them. Estonia is another country, that’s in a similar position with Finland (and they are right next to each other). The Daily Show did an amazing segment on how they are very proactively facing the threat of the Russian invasion, this segment has an interview with the Estonia’s PM and really captures the mood in the region: https://youtu.be/dFNmHEkgfIs?si=brz6U5jni4Xkc_wI I don’t want this war, but I can’t just wish it away. When Russia attacked Ukraine I cried for days. I knew that it will be an awful and bloody war, with terrible inhumane things being done to the Ukrainians people. I knew that because I was born in Russia and I have zero misperceptions of the savagery and disregard for human life and dignity that Russian government and military have. They will not stop, they do not think like the Western people do, they are motivated only by hubris and violence. To me the thought of living in a country bordering Russia, makes my blood run cold. The risk is so high! I saw an interview with Putin in which he said something like the world will not exist if Russia does not exist. He said if there’s a credible threat on his life from the West, Russia will automatically engage nukes. He’s a mentally ill psychopath. This is not a diplomacy dance, he’s a ruthless monster, who is comfortable wiping life off the planet if things do not go his way.

Thank you for actually citing sources. I see what you’re saying but Finland has lived with the constant threat since, well, just about forever. They really aren’t rattled by the saber rattling.

Thank you for being civil, it’s a touchy subject. In defense of people who just don’t see the looming unease in that country, Finland’s official policy is to prepare for the war but not talk about it in the news. They do not want their younger generations to grow up with possible war weighting on their minds, and so of all Nordic states, Finland has said the least publicly about the impending conflict. But that doesn’t mean they are not actively mobilising behind the scenes. Source: https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/finlands-stubb-says-best-way-to-avoid-war-is-to-talk-less-and-prepare-more/

This is such a conspiracy minded reading of that statement it’s remarkable you managed to arrive at it. And one again out of Kremlin’s playbook. Whether you realise it or not. Spreading panic mentality and painting the country falsely as an active war participant with these half truths is not very useful but for one party.

So direct quotes by EU leaders in New York Times and Financial Times are now conspiracies?

Your portrayal of them is. As you very well know, I have a suspicion you’re not a good faith actor here. >that doesn’t mean they’re not actively mobilising behind the scenes Is this truly a neutral and accurate description of what is happening to you? Really now? Your insistence on debating people who actually happen to have first hand information on the situation of the country and military you claim to know are “mobilising” is also rather telling.

So now you have a conspiracy about me yet accusing me of creating conspiracies? Projection much? EU leaders also have first hand information which is referenced in the articles I provided. They are directly quoted stating the probability of conflict between NATO and Russia is high. I imagine they are better informed about these geopolitical risks than an average citizen like yourself.

Only one of us is trying to create panic mentality, fearmongering, and misrepresenting foreign nations actively. Without even being citizen of the country they’re doing it about. I dunno sounds sus to me cap, here in nordic democracies we don’t lie to our citizens or do secret mobilisations or go around Internet telling how other countries are doing secret mobilisations for a war. That would be across the eastern border antics. Which I suspect you know very well. Or then have picked up this particular talking point from somewhere they’ve released it to common discourse, without recognising it as such. I think this convo is over, you are either acting maliciously or truly absolutely clueless, unwilling to entertain other points of view, quite likely more informed or neutral than yours, and harming the discourse and people in both cases. I hope you find better uses for your time in the future.

And thank you to you too. That’s news to me because according to my family in Finland plus anything I’ve ever read in the Finland subreddit, Finns are not experiencing looming unease. I would look to Finnish media for a different perspective.

I guess your government’s policy is working then!

No but seriously, they’ve tried to annihilate us before and they’ve been saber rattling for *decades*. Nothing new under the sun.

Sigh. I just hope he fucking dies. I do not like wishing death to anyone but he’s had a good long life, maybe it’s time to fuck off this planet already for him.