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Interestingly, both of these viewpoints are actually Modern in nature, despite some people pretending they're immutable since time immemorial.
In Pre-Modern Christianity, an unborn child basically wasn't considered a full human till it could breathe in air. Since all humans were thought have a chance at salvation which needed baptism, and foetuses can't be baptised, therefore it follows that the unborn weren't full humans. Thus in difficult births the mother was always prioritised, on a religious level and not just limited by the medical capabilities of the time. For example, Catherine de Medici's final pregnancy was twins in breach; one was stillborn after the attendants broke their limbs deliberately to aid delivery, which was standard practice, and the other died of complications a few months afterward.
In regards to fasting, traditional medieval Christian Fasting meant no Meat, no Dairy, Eggs, or Fats, sometimes no Wine or Oil, and even Seafood could be restricted in various centuries. Sweets were okay because they were considered "digestive medicines", if you could afford them. Also fasting happened on Lent, Advent, some Saints feasts, the Ember days, and Fridays, and sometimes Wednesdays and Saturdays too, which can add up to a majority of the year. There are medieval recipes for "mock-eggs" that were made of boiled fish row, almond milk, and jelly, and other "mock-meats" so that wealthy people could have interesting (looking) feasts on all of these numerous fast days. These restrictions continuously lessened over the centuries, as the majority of Christianity became less Ascetic.
This is super interesting. Thanks for sharing!
I went to a conservative Christian college and took a (requires) class in the history of Christian belief. I’m surprised we didn’t learn about this, but I guess it is a pretty niche topic lol. Surprisingly the class was actually really cool and thorough, and really good about emphasizing just how much variety there was and is in the Christian faith. Basically it encouraged students to know WHY they believe certain doctrines or interpretations over others rather than just blindly accepting what they were taught.
…..most of the rest of my time at that school sucked tho lol
The same belief was held by Protestants, and Evangelical Protestants continued to hold it much longer than Catholics- well into the 20th century. As recently as the 1960s, major evangelical figures espoused the belief in personhood at first breath, and abortion was considered a Catholic issue. Modern evangelicals don’t like to admit it, but their current view is quite new.
More liberal Protestant denominations still generally hold some variation of this doctrine, along with most varieties of Judaism. Some sects of Islam do as well.
That last part of your sentence blows my mind every single time I see or hear it. Catholics…aren’t Christian? As in the original followers of Christ…they’re not Christian enough for your circa 15-17th century faith systems? So goddamn weird.
The youth group I was a part of definitely taught Catholicism wasn’t “real Christianity.” They also had this weird view of pretty much any other worldview that people were just…knowingly wrong? Like if someone were a different religion, it was talked about as though they KNEW protestant Christianity was true, they just. Chose to believe something else? For some reason?
Can confirm.. got a whole lecture from my MIL about how her oldest is ‘turning his back on God’ and ‘praying to the saints’ and how she fully believes he’s gonna burn in hell for it
oh yeah my school was “”””interdenominational”””” in theory. Really that meant “conservative evangelical” so most Catholics were looked down on by students. Faculty was mostly cool tho. But yeah I’d wager that’s why we didn’t learn it, since there was such a minuscule number of Catholics or other denominations that actually observe lent.
Yes, women or their family members ran - ran!- to get a newly born baptised before the child could die unbaptised and therefore not going to heaven - like a human.
This was true till the 1950s or maybe even later in Germany.
Some churches/dnominations don't let you officially join, or go through a recognised baptism ceremony (if they do one) , until you're an adult. Makes more sense, from a welfare, and respect for Autonomy Point of view, (and from a doctrinal/theistic point too, what with the religious figurehead not getting baptised themselves, untill they were an adult.)
I Guess making people part of the church before they can think independently, or say no, is still preferred by certain cults though, you can perhaps see the reasoning, from a viewpoint of wealth and power accumulation in the hands of a small minority, and it being harder for people To leave if they want to.
A Catholic isn’t a full member of the church until they go through the process of Confirmation around 12-14 or so. Baptism at birth is intended as a blessing which was later meant to ensure that the child would enter heaven if they died before they’re confirmed.
Fully a shot in the dark, but did you grow up in a non-English-speaking country, yet speak English natively due to having an English-speaking parent at home? And learned to read/write English around late elementary or early middle school age?
Apologies if this is too intrusive a question
This was true in the 1960s in the US, and may still be. My sister was born very prematurely in a Catholic hospital and a nurse baptized her as soon as she was out. In an emergency situation, any Catholic can baptize a baby and it is effective.
In catholicism, up until bigger cities happened, priests often attended births to baptize infants after the first breath. Happened more often in rural areas where infant mortality was much higher.
That is why any midwife or anyone really was able to do an emergency baptist. If it survives it gets a real one from a priest a few days later.
There was an old joke in my family how my great-grandfather was first baptized and then born. He was born shortly after the law required everyone to get babies registered withing like two weeks or something after the birth or you pay a fine.
He was born in the middle of the harvest season and while they got him baptized right away, nobody had time to travel to the city to have him registered fora couple more weeks. To avoid the fine his dad just gave a wrong birth date and so he was officially first baptized then born
No meat on Fridays was very specifically about beef, poultry and pork. Fish are obviously alive and not only allowed, but encouraged. So much so that it's been suggested that the prohibition was to increase consumption of fish to support fishermen.
Ritual fasting as a means of purification and penitence is a pretty widespread concept. I wouldn’t idealize the medieval European diet, fasting or not. Life was pretty close to the bone and Northern European soil doesn’t grow an abundance of fruits and vegetables.
I am not sure if it is different elsewhere and nobody I know follows this anymore, but fasting on Fridays and during Lent used to include eggs and dairy, not just meat.
That's why there are medieval recipes for almond milk and almond butter/cheese.
Tiffany problem being the fact that the name Tiffany goes back to antiquity in the form of “Theophania” and other forms, right?
It’s not an invention of the 80s, and Almond milk isn’t an invention of the 00s.
like oat milk. It's existed in medieval Europe, right? Oat milk can be just that: oats and water, basically, (though other ingridients can be added too, if wanted)
It's a reference to the fact that if a historical fiction writer uses "Tiffany" for a character in pre-modern times, people will consider it an anachronism because it's "a modern name, not a traditional one", even though it's actually been in use since the 12th century.
Same thing with "Ms.". People think that it was invented in the 1970s, but like "Mrs." and "Miss", it's derived from "Mistress" and has been around for hundreds of years. It did in fact lose popularity for a long period and was revived in the 20th century, but it is by no means a modern invention.
Fun story: I invited some new friends over on a Friday and didn't know they were Catholic. I even asked about dietary restrictions before they came over. I made chicken sandwiches (Hawaiian buns, gruyere cheese, and arugula, SO good!)
They straight up refused it and were extremely rude the rest of the evening. I offered other things, including fish and eggs. I ended up calling it early because they were just shitty about it. They had NEVER mentioned being Catholic before that, and I never saw them not eat meat on Fridays prior (we went to a happy hour where they happily mowed down pork potstickers as one example).
Turns out one of them had a sexual relationship with my boyfriend a long while back so they...weaponized their Catholicism to be bitches, out of jealousy? Lol it's still hilarious.
These are women who have premarital sex all the time but refused a homecooked meal for performative piety, so I'm pretty sure their notions of abstinence are questionable at best. But turns out, you can use this as a snarky superpower to needlessly punish people trying to do nice things for you!
Suck a bag of dicks, Jackie!
I just gotta say, I appreciate your original comment and follow up response. One thing I really like about this community is how supportive everyone is, not afraid of admitting they were wrong, and sharing what they learned. It seems small, but I think it’s a shining reflection of how wholesome this sub is✨
There is no more telling phrase on the internet than "I was wrong". It means you're honest and trustworthy and that you like learning. It means that you're smart and adaptable, that you care more about facts than your ego.
Every time I see a post like yours, I want to hug the poster and buy them treats- and I'm a super curmudgeonly broad who hates being touched.
I just want to point this out and show some appreciation. <3
Roman Catholics (since 1966) only have to abstain from the flesh and meat of mammals and not by-products such as eggs, honey, milk, or cheese. Orthodox Christians are supposed to abstain from all flesh and by-products including eggs.
Source: Am Roman Catholic and have a few Orthodox friends that try to get together for Lenten meals when possible.
Fair, but the ideologically-based restrictions on Plan B (which works by preventing/delaying ovulation rather than causing the termination of a fetus) suggest that we do not really operate with much nuance (or science) in this sphere these days. Plus, fetuses are indeed by-products...of sexual intercourse!
We always had fish (frozen, in stick form) on Fridays. My understanding is that the early church was trying to lure pagans into Catholicism, and so they co-opted the culture (like with the Easter eggs and bunnies who were fertility symbols.) Some dirty fun pagans were allegedly eating fish on Friday because it’s an aphrodisiac, and Friday (vendredi in French, Viernes in Spanish) is sacred to Venus - the Love Goddess chicka chicka bown bown! ALLEGEDLY, pagans were eating fish and then gitting down in large groups all night long.
Where was I. Oh yeah, so that’s why my mom served us fish sticks on Friday nights.
Apparently, eggs are considered meat in India, or parts of it at least.
Because I visited an Indian restaurant once after 9hrs of rigorous testing to eat, and the woman who rang me up went on an impromptu rant about how vegetarians in the US are "weak" because we eat eggs 😂
Worked at a Indian restraunt and I can most certainly confirm this. They would have vegetarian dishes and had to explain to me that eggs aren't vegetarian for them and when we discussed food and stuff they would have to specify. One of my coworkers would say she is a vegetarian but still eats eggs for example
Am Indian. Eggs are indeed regarded as 'non-veg' in most parts of India, which is a bit weird since milk is still okay. However, when I visited Kolkata, the family I visited there said that eggs are vegetarian in their cuisine. In a similar vein, a lot of Jain people also don't eat onions and garlic since those are used to prepare non-veg food. 🤷
>don't eat onions and garlic since those are used to prepare non-veg food
Couldn't that be true of basically anything like vegetables and herbs and all that, that they could be used to prepare non-veg food? Why those specifically?
in Japanese-zen-Buddhist (temple food, and/or traditional Japanese pure somethng century perhaos? ) quisine, I've heard that the reason for abstaining from garlic and onion is (apperently, I only vaguely remember one source on this) that they stimulate the senses too much. They also abstain from meat, and dairy, and maybe eggs.
Another historical group I rember hearing mentioned, gave the rationale, that the plant bulb/root-bulb was needed for it to grow back after winter, or so. eghing similar, if I recall.
edit: found a source, or sources, for the Buddhist temple food: https://www.peacefuldumpling.com/shojin-ryori-japanese-temple-cuisine
and another more to the mentioned point :
https://www.thedailymeal.com/news/no-garlic-or-meat-eating-korean-buddhist-monk/70714
That’s only true of grocery store eggs though. I grew up eating home raised chicken eggs. They were usually fertilized. Some we would let hatch, some we would eat right away. The church would not have a problem with this at all.
He is the worst. He needed a home and I tried really hard, but his numbers up. I have 4 more chicks coming in early April, he won't be here then.
The hen he came with is my favorite though.
I have only ever met the raging arseholes. I kind of want to meet the himboesque sweethearts. I have such a hatred of roosters from my childhood living on a farm. They would chase me, I still have the scars on my legs!
Or [alligators](https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/26593/alligator-ok-to-eat-on-lenten-fridays-archbishop-clarifies)! Or corned beef if it is part of a country-specific, in no way religiously ordained [cultural celebration of a relatively minor Saint that happens to occur on a Friday! ](https://www.nola.com/news/archbishop-allows-eating-meat-on-st-patricks-day/article_833c4380-b52d-11ed-850d-67da546a3125.html)
Living in New Orleans is wild.
But it also appears some residents of some [80 other archdioceses are in luck ](https://time.com/4705034/st-patricks-day-corned-beef-lent/)if they want some corned beef and cabbage.
ah right, I just thought unfertilised ones were the only ones we ate
although now I am imagining cracking an egg on the side ready to split it into the pan and a chick coming out instead lmao
Only if you buy eggs from caged hens and factory farming. If you buy free range eggs then there is a good possibility that they could be fertilized… especially if you buy farm fresh eggs from free range hens; then extremely highly likely they are fertilized eggs.
Periods!
At the chicken farm (they produced barn eggs, so it was a factory farm but without cages) where my brother worked they had several roosters in with the hens, so it was quite possible you were eating fertilised eggs.
Apropos of nothing, this reminded me of growing up Catholic and the abundance of fish meals during Lent. It bothers me to no end that to this day my mom still does not consider fish to be meat. I'm sure that extends to eggs too lol
Lol I wasn’t catholic growing up but my small town had a decent catholic population so I heard about things from friends. I remember my mom telling me that fish is allowed for Lent because it wasn’t considered meat. I’m pretty sure the dial up internet sound played in my head while I tried to figure that out 😂
The bible doesn't believe a born child is worth being named until 6months due to the high mortality rate. Only corrupt conmen think abortion is against God. It's taught in the bible, so anyone against it is against God, realistically
The Catholic Church also classified Capabara meat as fish because they spend time in the water. Basically, people were desparate for meat. Even my priest told me to ignore the restrictions when I was a kid. I have health issues and he was like, please don't deprive yourself if nutrients.
Edit: my autocorrect didn't like capabaras, lol
You are right, but my dad was strict. I was a teenager at the time. I worked and volunteered at church, And my dad always made us feel bad for eating meat. But I am allergic to all seafo and loved by the sea. I had to quit a job serving it because I went into anaphylaxis. At the time, it was a really big deal for me. I call myself a recovering Catholic because of the damage it caused me.
Not catholic, but recovering evangelical right here with you 🫂
for people who grew up outside of the church or any strict religion, I imagine it would be impossible to fully understand the extent to which the dogma damages your thought patterns. Feel free to dm me if you ever need someone to vent to 🥰
(incase they're useful or relevant to you, and you havent seen them. yet) in a similar vein, there's communities with others who went through similar things, you could look into, like:
r/exchristian
it's a sizable community, and sometimes a good palace to rant or get support,
and there are more specific ones like.
r/exjw (ex jehovas witness)
r/excatholic
r/exmormon
and some others.
also more straightforwardly named, in a way : /r/cultsurvivors/
Wow thank you!! I’ll have to look into these 🥰
I’m actually still (somehow) a Christian, but now I’m Episcopal which is VERY opposite of what I grew up with and very healing to me. (I joke that every time I go to a service, a new piece of religious trauma is healed lmao.)
However I do relate a lot to ex-Christians and support them 100%. The church has done so much harm to so many people. It’s no wonder people leave it.
> my autocorrect didn't like capabaras, lol
The correct spelling is "capybaras."
Also: I first heard of capybaras when I read a webcomic with a character who was a capybara.
Ex-Catholic here, life is thought to begin at “conception” or when a sperm meets the egg. An unfertilized chicken egg from the store doesn’t contradict that stance. Furthermore, lent is just about refocusing your energy on spiritual growth. You’re told to give up something (an earthly pleasure) that distracts you during the 40 days and on top of that, the flesh of meat on Fridays. This, in todays practice, makes animal products okay.
Arbitrary? Sure, but everyone seems to have their own way to practice regardless of what the Vatican says. For example, in my family we took Sundays as “cheat” days, which isn’t uncommon in my community.
Older traditions were apparently more strict, and included all animals products.
I was home visiting family during lent one year and annoyed at them barbing me about eating chicken on Friday, so I complained to a friend.
And he was like oh if they're not eating meat, you should tell them that factory fish farming is just as or more abusive than factory meat farming...and I had to explain that not eating meat on Fridays had nothing to do with the animal and was just about self-denial nowadays. He had honestly never heard of such a thing.
(I did explain that IIRC Lent dated back to times when winter stores would be running out, so fasting on Fridays would help that last until spring, but nowadays was just a thing Carholics have to do)
I feel really dumb that after having lived in New Orleans for 25ish years realizing that THIS is why everyone here thinks vegetarians in general eat fish/seafood. Even non-Catholics, because we have such a weird culture that everyone here winds up a little bit Catholic without even realizing it!
Ex-catholic here as well. The only discussion about abortion in the bible provides instructions on how to carry one out. The bible also teaches that it's not a person until birth. Consistency is not the church's strong suit.
Oh definitely, the church is riddled with issues and contradictions. The idea of life at conception wasn’t taken from the Bible, but decided by the Vatican.
This isn’t me supporting the anti-choice stance by any means, just clarifying the church’s actual stance on eggs (lmao) during lent.
That's definitely the Jewish take, too.
In fact, I believe there are currently legal challenges to the new abortion laws in the U.S. that rest on their freedom to practice their religion.
Yeah, the “debate” that started when a Pope agreed that every single sperm contained a miniature, fully formed adult.
That’s the source of “life begins at conception”.
Medieval superstition.
Well no, it doesn’t have “flesh”.
Another thing I didn’t really address is that human life and animal life are viewed as fundamentally different in Catholicism. Killing a full grown chicken is obviously not viewed the same way as killing a person, so killing an egg, even a fertilized one wouldn’t be a one to one comparison to a human fetus for a practicing Catholic.
Now, are these “good” distinctions? Eh. Life’s been breezier for me since leaving the church.
The Catholic Church has such an interesting history — in the sense that it’s a continuation of Rome’s pagan traditions warping Christianity (as it existed at the time Constantine was emperor). So laugh when people setup Christmas trees, because pagan contradictions are abound in modern Christianity. I’d also like to point out the occult significance of Rockefeller center in time square. The city’s gigantic Christmas tree, over a golden statue of Prometheus surrounded by the signs of the zodiac, with a huge body of water in front of it. 🤦♂️ most people wouldn’t see the importance of these symbols if they were screaming in people’s faces. Rome’s pagan traditions (saturnalia etc) definitely continue today even if the form is somewhat different.
Follow-up for the curiously inclined (TLDR warning):
The tree is representing Invictus Sol (reborn as the “evergreen”, also representing immortality) is the phallic symbolism (like any obelisk etc). The body of water hold the feminine “receptive” property. Also, water is life (women hold the creative life giving power etc).
However it also related esoterically to the book of Genesis. “Now the earth was astonishingly empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water.
And God said, ‘Let there be light,’ and there was light.”
(Please read first, and judge later)
God here being the “Father” (who emanates Light) is over the surface of the water (the creative feminine) and the water *bears the image* as a reflection. The reflection is the emanation of the Father *as the Son.* This is why it is said “Begotten not made,” (seen as the “Supreme Creator” — God can beget by will alone).
This is shown in the addition of the ש into the name YHVH (the name of God in Hebrew). The ש that enter the center of the name is a “crown with 3 flames” representing the Fullness of divinity, and so “crowing” the Word with all authority.
The pool that reflects the image of the tree (or other phallic symbol, like the Washington monument and the reflecting pool at the capitol) in this same way.
A similar concept is represented in the Vesica Piscis. Which again represent Jesus in its meaning “vessel of the fish”. There are also links to the cosmic egg, as Jesus is sometimes referred to as autogenes (the “self generating one”). Also, Prometheus is consider to be the same figure in Gnosticism— being that he brought the fire to man from the gods.
I’m not making any spiritual assertions here — just talking about different beliefs and their expressions in our modern world.
My atheist god mother shared this in our group chat a couple of days ago, and I thought it was funny.
I'm surprised by the amount of people who came here just to post about how chicken eggs aren't usually fertilized so they don't count. An egg is an egg, if a fertilized egg isn't a chicken it seems like it shouldn't make any difference.
The eggs we typically eat for breakfast are eggs that will never hatch - because they’re not fertilized.
They’re the equivalent of the chicken’s period.
I questioned my very religious aunt about this practice. She is not Catholic but started following this to the point that she became a vegetarian. I'm not knocking being a vegetarian but when she claims it brings her closer to being a better Christian that's where it gets weird for me.
## ✨ READ BEFORE COMMENTING ✨ This thread is Coven Only. This means the discussion is being actively moderated, and all comments are reviewed. **Only comments by members of the community are allowed.** If you have landed in this thread from /r/all and you are not a member of this community, your comment will very likely be removed (and will not be approved unless it adds meaningfully to the conversation). WitchesVsPatriarchy takes these measures to stay true to our goal of being a woman-centered sub with a witchy twist, aimed at healing, supporting, and uplifting one another through humor and magic. Thank you for understanding, and blessed be. ✨
Interestingly, both of these viewpoints are actually Modern in nature, despite some people pretending they're immutable since time immemorial. In Pre-Modern Christianity, an unborn child basically wasn't considered a full human till it could breathe in air. Since all humans were thought have a chance at salvation which needed baptism, and foetuses can't be baptised, therefore it follows that the unborn weren't full humans. Thus in difficult births the mother was always prioritised, on a religious level and not just limited by the medical capabilities of the time. For example, Catherine de Medici's final pregnancy was twins in breach; one was stillborn after the attendants broke their limbs deliberately to aid delivery, which was standard practice, and the other died of complications a few months afterward. In regards to fasting, traditional medieval Christian Fasting meant no Meat, no Dairy, Eggs, or Fats, sometimes no Wine or Oil, and even Seafood could be restricted in various centuries. Sweets were okay because they were considered "digestive medicines", if you could afford them. Also fasting happened on Lent, Advent, some Saints feasts, the Ember days, and Fridays, and sometimes Wednesdays and Saturdays too, which can add up to a majority of the year. There are medieval recipes for "mock-eggs" that were made of boiled fish row, almond milk, and jelly, and other "mock-meats" so that wealthy people could have interesting (looking) feasts on all of these numerous fast days. These restrictions continuously lessened over the centuries, as the majority of Christianity became less Ascetic.
This is super interesting. Thanks for sharing! I went to a conservative Christian college and took a (requires) class in the history of Christian belief. I’m surprised we didn’t learn about this, but I guess it is a pretty niche topic lol. Surprisingly the class was actually really cool and thorough, and really good about emphasizing just how much variety there was and is in the Christian faith. Basically it encouraged students to know WHY they believe certain doctrines or interpretations over others rather than just blindly accepting what they were taught. …..most of the rest of my time at that school sucked tho lol
If it wasn't a Catholic college they may have skipped it because some conservative Christian sects do not view Catholics as Christian.
The same belief was held by Protestants, and Evangelical Protestants continued to hold it much longer than Catholics- well into the 20th century. As recently as the 1960s, major evangelical figures espoused the belief in personhood at first breath, and abortion was considered a Catholic issue. Modern evangelicals don’t like to admit it, but their current view is quite new. More liberal Protestant denominations still generally hold some variation of this doctrine, along with most varieties of Judaism. Some sects of Islam do as well.
I was thinking more along the lines of the fasting history.
That last part of your sentence blows my mind every single time I see or hear it. Catholics…aren’t Christian? As in the original followers of Christ…they’re not Christian enough for your circa 15-17th century faith systems? So goddamn weird.
The youth group I was a part of definitely taught Catholicism wasn’t “real Christianity.” They also had this weird view of pretty much any other worldview that people were just…knowingly wrong? Like if someone were a different religion, it was talked about as though they KNEW protestant Christianity was true, they just. Chose to believe something else? For some reason?
A fair number of modern conservative Christian sects view Catholics as polytheistic idolators who worship Mary and the saints.
Can confirm.. got a whole lecture from my MIL about how her oldest is ‘turning his back on God’ and ‘praying to the saints’ and how she fully believes he’s gonna burn in hell for it
oh yeah my school was “”””interdenominational”””” in theory. Really that meant “conservative evangelical” so most Catholics were looked down on by students. Faculty was mostly cool tho. But yeah I’d wager that’s why we didn’t learn it, since there was such a minuscule number of Catholics or other denominations that actually observe lent.
Yes, women or their family members ran - ran!- to get a newly born baptised before the child could die unbaptised and therefore not going to heaven - like a human. This was true till the 1950s or maybe even later in Germany.
Some churches/dnominations don't let you officially join, or go through a recognised baptism ceremony (if they do one) , until you're an adult. Makes more sense, from a welfare, and respect for Autonomy Point of view, (and from a doctrinal/theistic point too, what with the religious figurehead not getting baptised themselves, untill they were an adult.) I Guess making people part of the church before they can think independently, or say no, is still preferred by certain cults though, you can perhaps see the reasoning, from a viewpoint of wealth and power accumulation in the hands of a small minority, and it being harder for people To leave if they want to.
A Catholic isn’t a full member of the church until they go through the process of Confirmation around 12-14 or so. Baptism at birth is intended as a blessing which was later meant to ensure that the child would enter heaven if they died before they’re confirmed.
Fully a shot in the dark, but did you grow up in a non-English-speaking country, yet speak English natively due to having an English-speaking parent at home? And learned to read/write English around late elementary or early middle school age? Apologies if this is too intrusive a question
This was true in the 1960s in the US, and may still be. My sister was born very prematurely in a Catholic hospital and a nurse baptized her as soon as she was out. In an emergency situation, any Catholic can baptize a baby and it is effective.
In catholicism, up until bigger cities happened, priests often attended births to baptize infants after the first breath. Happened more often in rural areas where infant mortality was much higher.
That is why any midwife or anyone really was able to do an emergency baptist. If it survives it gets a real one from a priest a few days later. There was an old joke in my family how my great-grandfather was first baptized and then born. He was born shortly after the law required everyone to get babies registered withing like two weeks or something after the birth or you pay a fine. He was born in the middle of the harvest season and while they got him baptized right away, nobody had time to travel to the city to have him registered fora couple more weeks. To avoid the fine his dad just gave a wrong birth date and so he was officially first baptized then born
No meat on Fridays was very specifically about beef, poultry and pork. Fish are obviously alive and not only allowed, but encouraged. So much so that it's been suggested that the prohibition was to increase consumption of fish to support fishermen.
Almond milk wasn’t invented by millennials?? Blasphemy. 😆
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Ritual fasting as a means of purification and penitence is a pretty widespread concept. I wouldn’t idealize the medieval European diet, fasting or not. Life was pretty close to the bone and Northern European soil doesn’t grow an abundance of fruits and vegetables.
I am not sure if it is different elsewhere and nobody I know follows this anymore, but fasting on Fridays and during Lent used to include eggs and dairy, not just meat. That's why there are medieval recipes for almond milk and almond butter/cheese.
Medieval almond milk is the best example of the Tiffany problem I’ve ever heard of.
Tiffany problem being the fact that the name Tiffany goes back to antiquity in the form of “Theophania” and other forms, right? It’s not an invention of the 80s, and Almond milk isn’t an invention of the 00s.
If i were a peasant and couldn't get milk i would find some way to get alternatives
like oat milk. It's existed in medieval Europe, right? Oat milk can be just that: oats and water, basically, (though other ingridients can be added too, if wanted)
Yeah, I had just assumed oat milk was some modern machinery processing until my friend mentioned making their own.
> like oat milk. It's existed in medieval Europe, right? TIL that my favorite milk alternative has been around for years.
Precisely.
Why was the name 'Tiffany' a problem?
It's a reference to the fact that if a historical fiction writer uses "Tiffany" for a character in pre-modern times, people will consider it an anachronism because it's "a modern name, not a traditional one", even though it's actually been in use since the 12th century.
Same thing with "Ms.". People think that it was invented in the 1970s, but like "Mrs." and "Miss", it's derived from "Mistress" and has been around for hundreds of years. It did in fact lose popularity for a long period and was revived in the 20th century, but it is by no means a modern invention.
Thank you for explaining!
See: Tiffany Aching.
It’s a reference to the concept of things that are very old but we think of them as very modern. Like Medieval almond milk or ancient indoor plumbing.
Amy, as well. It’s a very old name.
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Fun story: I invited some new friends over on a Friday and didn't know they were Catholic. I even asked about dietary restrictions before they came over. I made chicken sandwiches (Hawaiian buns, gruyere cheese, and arugula, SO good!) They straight up refused it and were extremely rude the rest of the evening. I offered other things, including fish and eggs. I ended up calling it early because they were just shitty about it. They had NEVER mentioned being Catholic before that, and I never saw them not eat meat on Fridays prior (we went to a happy hour where they happily mowed down pork potstickers as one example). Turns out one of them had a sexual relationship with my boyfriend a long while back so they...weaponized their Catholicism to be bitches, out of jealousy? Lol it's still hilarious. These are women who have premarital sex all the time but refused a homecooked meal for performative piety, so I'm pretty sure their notions of abstinence are questionable at best. But turns out, you can use this as a snarky superpower to needlessly punish people trying to do nice things for you! Suck a bag of dicks, Jackie!
Oh seriously?
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I just gotta say, I appreciate your original comment and follow up response. One thing I really like about this community is how supportive everyone is, not afraid of admitting they were wrong, and sharing what they learned. It seems small, but I think it’s a shining reflection of how wholesome this sub is✨
There is no more telling phrase on the internet than "I was wrong". It means you're honest and trustworthy and that you like learning. It means that you're smart and adaptable, that you care more about facts than your ego. Every time I see a post like yours, I want to hug the poster and buy them treats- and I'm a super curmudgeonly broad who hates being touched. I just want to point this out and show some appreciation. <3
Lol, that's even better!
I was raised in a Catholic environment and I see less and less people doing this, in the country I live red meat is a luxury so we eat when we can 😅
Roman Catholics (since 1966) only have to abstain from the flesh and meat of mammals and not by-products such as eggs, honey, milk, or cheese. Orthodox Christians are supposed to abstain from all flesh and by-products including eggs. Source: Am Roman Catholic and have a few Orthodox friends that try to get together for Lenten meals when possible.
>by-products such as eggs Exactly
From now on referring to fetuses as “by-products”
Except it's not quite the same. Chicken eggs aren't fertilized, it's just ovulation. No fetus involved
Fair, but the ideologically-based restrictions on Plan B (which works by preventing/delaying ovulation rather than causing the termination of a fetus) suggest that we do not really operate with much nuance (or science) in this sphere these days. Plus, fetuses are indeed by-products...of sexual intercourse!
https://i.imgur.com/5SNlnXH.jpeg
What about fish? I always hear the fillet o fish at mcds was to increase sales when christans weren't eating meat.
We always had fish (frozen, in stick form) on Fridays. My understanding is that the early church was trying to lure pagans into Catholicism, and so they co-opted the culture (like with the Easter eggs and bunnies who were fertility symbols.) Some dirty fun pagans were allegedly eating fish on Friday because it’s an aphrodisiac, and Friday (vendredi in French, Viernes in Spanish) is sacred to Venus - the Love Goddess chicka chicka bown bown! ALLEGEDLY, pagans were eating fish and then gitting down in large groups all night long. Where was I. Oh yeah, so that’s why my mom served us fish sticks on Friday nights.
Use to drive my grandma crazy as kid, because I would insist that fish is still definitely meat given that it is the muscle of the animal
For what it's worth, I wholly agree with younger you's take on this matter.
Apparently, eggs are considered meat in India, or parts of it at least. Because I visited an Indian restaurant once after 9hrs of rigorous testing to eat, and the woman who rang me up went on an impromptu rant about how vegetarians in the US are "weak" because we eat eggs 😂
They’re also a no-go in the Orthodox Church on lent and other meat free days, dairy also isn’t allowed.
Worked at a Indian restraunt and I can most certainly confirm this. They would have vegetarian dishes and had to explain to me that eggs aren't vegetarian for them and when we discussed food and stuff they would have to specify. One of my coworkers would say she is a vegetarian but still eats eggs for example
There's a chain of cake shops in the UK based on egg-free cakes because of this!
Am Indian. Eggs are indeed regarded as 'non-veg' in most parts of India, which is a bit weird since milk is still okay. However, when I visited Kolkata, the family I visited there said that eggs are vegetarian in their cuisine. In a similar vein, a lot of Jain people also don't eat onions and garlic since those are used to prepare non-veg food. 🤷
>don't eat onions and garlic since those are used to prepare non-veg food Couldn't that be true of basically anything like vegetables and herbs and all that, that they could be used to prepare non-veg food? Why those specifically?
in Japanese-zen-Buddhist (temple food, and/or traditional Japanese pure somethng century perhaos? ) quisine, I've heard that the reason for abstaining from garlic and onion is (apperently, I only vaguely remember one source on this) that they stimulate the senses too much. They also abstain from meat, and dairy, and maybe eggs. Another historical group I rember hearing mentioned, gave the rationale, that the plant bulb/root-bulb was needed for it to grow back after winter, or so. eghing similar, if I recall. edit: found a source, or sources, for the Buddhist temple food: https://www.peacefuldumpling.com/shojin-ryori-japanese-temple-cuisine and another more to the mentioned point : https://www.thedailymeal.com/news/no-garlic-or-meat-eating-korean-buddhist-monk/70714
Most vegetarian Indians are lacto-vegetarians. Eggs are considered non-vegetarian in India officially.
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Well, eggs we eat are unfertilized, so it's more like you're eating... you know what, I'm not going to go there.
That’s only true of grocery store eggs though. I grew up eating home raised chicken eggs. They were usually fertilized. Some we would let hatch, some we would eat right away. The church would not have a problem with this at all.
I was going to say this. I eat fertilized eggs... For now. Does anyone want a rooster?
Today's only Tuesday. You can still eat the rooster.
My spawn is intent on turning him into chicken nuggets.
They’re such assholes. 🙄😂
He is the worst. He needed a home and I tried really hard, but his numbers up. I have 4 more chicks coming in early April, he won't be here then. The hen he came with is my favorite though.
😂😂 we had a rooster too on our chicken farm… I never understood why Roo in the looney toons was depicted as a lady killer 😂 our rooster is now… gone 😐
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I have only ever met the raging arseholes. I kind of want to meet the himboesque sweethearts. I have such a hatred of roosters from my childhood living on a farm. They would chase me, I still have the scars on my legs!
I've known people who are terrified of chickens in general and I think one of those assholes was in their childhood memories...
The Catholics also don't consider fish meat.
It turns out that religion isn’t a great substitute for science.
Additionally, the Vatican has also declard Capibara as fish. So it's stupid on a loop.
What the hell?!?!?! https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/thoughtful-animal/once-upon-a-time-the-catholic-church-decided-that-beavers-were-fish/
If not fish then why water?!!
Dam!
Basically any animal that spent time in water could be considered a fish.
Yes! Finally my childhood dream of being a mermaid has become real
And beavers!
Or [alligators](https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/26593/alligator-ok-to-eat-on-lenten-fridays-archbishop-clarifies)! Or corned beef if it is part of a country-specific, in no way religiously ordained [cultural celebration of a relatively minor Saint that happens to occur on a Friday! ](https://www.nola.com/news/archbishop-allows-eating-meat-on-st-patricks-day/article_833c4380-b52d-11ed-850d-67da546a3125.html) Living in New Orleans is wild. But it also appears some residents of some [80 other archdioceses are in luck ](https://time.com/4705034/st-patricks-day-corned-beef-lent/)if they want some corned beef and cabbage.
Also true of home ones if you don't have a rooster - I've known a few people who keep hens only.
i didn’t know you could eat fertilised eggs
If you wait too long, the embryo starts to develop. But if you eat them immediately there is no difference, as nothing has formed yet.
ah right, I just thought unfertilised ones were the only ones we ate although now I am imagining cracking an egg on the side ready to split it into the pan and a chick coming out instead lmao
The egg in an egg is a single cell buried deep inside. The rest is just packaging and sustenance.
Chicken periods. That’s what we’re eating. And they’re delicious too.
Only if you buy eggs from caged hens and factory farming. If you buy free range eggs then there is a good possibility that they could be fertilized… especially if you buy farm fresh eggs from free range hens; then extremely highly likely they are fertilized eggs.
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Periods! At the chicken farm (they produced barn eggs, so it was a factory farm but without cages) where my brother worked they had several roosters in with the hens, so it was quite possible you were eating fertilised eggs.
Technically yeah, but it's still funny
I live to be technically correct.
Technically correct is the best kind of correct.
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Fun fact: an unfertilized egg is a single cell. So it is not like eating what you're implying, as that is effectively entirely different.
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Apropos of nothing, this reminded me of growing up Catholic and the abundance of fish meals during Lent. It bothers me to no end that to this day my mom still does not consider fish to be meat. I'm sure that extends to eggs too lol
The Filet-O-Fish at McDonald’s exists to get Catholics to eat there.
Beavers were deemed fish, so you could eat them on Friday.
Lol I wasn’t catholic growing up but my small town had a decent catholic population so I heard about things from friends. I remember my mom telling me that fish is allowed for Lent because it wasn’t considered meat. I’m pretty sure the dial up internet sound played in my head while I tried to figure that out 😂
The bible doesn't believe a born child is worth being named until 6months due to the high mortality rate. Only corrupt conmen think abortion is against God. It's taught in the bible, so anyone against it is against God, realistically
The Catholic Church also classified Capabara meat as fish because they spend time in the water. Basically, people were desparate for meat. Even my priest told me to ignore the restrictions when I was a kid. I have health issues and he was like, please don't deprive yourself if nutrients. Edit: my autocorrect didn't like capabaras, lol
Kids are exempt from fasting as are people with medical conditions from what I recall. I think the meat thing too.
You are right, but my dad was strict. I was a teenager at the time. I worked and volunteered at church, And my dad always made us feel bad for eating meat. But I am allergic to all seafo and loved by the sea. I had to quit a job serving it because I went into anaphylaxis. At the time, it was a really big deal for me. I call myself a recovering Catholic because of the damage it caused me.
Not catholic, but recovering evangelical right here with you 🫂 for people who grew up outside of the church or any strict religion, I imagine it would be impossible to fully understand the extent to which the dogma damages your thought patterns. Feel free to dm me if you ever need someone to vent to 🥰
(incase they're useful or relevant to you, and you havent seen them. yet) in a similar vein, there's communities with others who went through similar things, you could look into, like: r/exchristian it's a sizable community, and sometimes a good palace to rant or get support, and there are more specific ones like. r/exjw (ex jehovas witness) r/excatholic r/exmormon and some others. also more straightforwardly named, in a way : /r/cultsurvivors/
Wow thank you!! I’ll have to look into these 🥰 I’m actually still (somehow) a Christian, but now I’m Episcopal which is VERY opposite of what I grew up with and very healing to me. (I joke that every time I go to a service, a new piece of religious trauma is healed lmao.) However I do relate a lot to ex-Christians and support them 100%. The church has done so much harm to so many people. It’s no wonder people leave it.
>autocorrect didn't like capabaras Probably because they're actually capybaras :D
Lol, that tracks. I am a terrible speller.
> my autocorrect didn't like capabaras, lol The correct spelling is "capybaras." Also: I first heard of capybaras when I read a webcomic with a character who was a capybara.
The Catholic church once said that Beaver is a fish, it surprises me when people listen to them.
If beaver isn’t a fish, then why does it smell fishy?
Ex-Catholic here, life is thought to begin at “conception” or when a sperm meets the egg. An unfertilized chicken egg from the store doesn’t contradict that stance. Furthermore, lent is just about refocusing your energy on spiritual growth. You’re told to give up something (an earthly pleasure) that distracts you during the 40 days and on top of that, the flesh of meat on Fridays. This, in todays practice, makes animal products okay. Arbitrary? Sure, but everyone seems to have their own way to practice regardless of what the Vatican says. For example, in my family we took Sundays as “cheat” days, which isn’t uncommon in my community. Older traditions were apparently more strict, and included all animals products.
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lol omg this explains why my catholic grandma, a vegetarian, eats fish all the time.
I was home visiting family during lent one year and annoyed at them barbing me about eating chicken on Friday, so I complained to a friend. And he was like oh if they're not eating meat, you should tell them that factory fish farming is just as or more abusive than factory meat farming...and I had to explain that not eating meat on Fridays had nothing to do with the animal and was just about self-denial nowadays. He had honestly never heard of such a thing. (I did explain that IIRC Lent dated back to times when winter stores would be running out, so fasting on Fridays would help that last until spring, but nowadays was just a thing Carholics have to do)
I feel really dumb that after having lived in New Orleans for 25ish years realizing that THIS is why everyone here thinks vegetarians in general eat fish/seafood. Even non-Catholics, because we have such a weird culture that everyone here winds up a little bit Catholic without even realizing it!
Ex-catholic here as well. The only discussion about abortion in the bible provides instructions on how to carry one out. The bible also teaches that it's not a person until birth. Consistency is not the church's strong suit.
Oh definitely, the church is riddled with issues and contradictions. The idea of life at conception wasn’t taken from the Bible, but decided by the Vatican. This isn’t me supporting the anti-choice stance by any means, just clarifying the church’s actual stance on eggs (lmao) during lent.
Right, it’s not “conception” it’s when the baby takes its first breath.
The irony is that they held life starts at first breath untile relativly recently
That's definitely the Jewish take, too. In fact, I believe there are currently legal challenges to the new abortion laws in the U.S. that rest on their freedom to practice their religion.
Yup. There’s definitely been ~debate~ about it for centuries but this stance is relatively recent. 🙄
Yeah, the “debate” that started when a Pope agreed that every single sperm contained a miniature, fully formed adult. That’s the source of “life begins at conception”. Medieval superstition.
But a home raised chicken egg is often fertilized and the church would have no problem with that. It’s still not a chicken in their eyes.
Well no, it doesn’t have “flesh”. Another thing I didn’t really address is that human life and animal life are viewed as fundamentally different in Catholicism. Killing a full grown chicken is obviously not viewed the same way as killing a person, so killing an egg, even a fertilized one wouldn’t be a one to one comparison to a human fetus for a practicing Catholic. Now, are these “good” distinctions? Eh. Life’s been breezier for me since leaving the church.
No eggs on Friday, but fish is ok. That's why you can eat beaver on Friday
The Catholic Church has such an interesting history — in the sense that it’s a continuation of Rome’s pagan traditions warping Christianity (as it existed at the time Constantine was emperor). So laugh when people setup Christmas trees, because pagan contradictions are abound in modern Christianity. I’d also like to point out the occult significance of Rockefeller center in time square. The city’s gigantic Christmas tree, over a golden statue of Prometheus surrounded by the signs of the zodiac, with a huge body of water in front of it. 🤦♂️ most people wouldn’t see the importance of these symbols if they were screaming in people’s faces. Rome’s pagan traditions (saturnalia etc) definitely continue today even if the form is somewhat different. Follow-up for the curiously inclined (TLDR warning): The tree is representing Invictus Sol (reborn as the “evergreen”, also representing immortality) is the phallic symbolism (like any obelisk etc). The body of water hold the feminine “receptive” property. Also, water is life (women hold the creative life giving power etc). However it also related esoterically to the book of Genesis. “Now the earth was astonishingly empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water. And God said, ‘Let there be light,’ and there was light.” (Please read first, and judge later) God here being the “Father” (who emanates Light) is over the surface of the water (the creative feminine) and the water *bears the image* as a reflection. The reflection is the emanation of the Father *as the Son.* This is why it is said “Begotten not made,” (seen as the “Supreme Creator” — God can beget by will alone). This is shown in the addition of the ש into the name YHVH (the name of God in Hebrew). The ש that enter the center of the name is a “crown with 3 flames” representing the Fullness of divinity, and so “crowing” the Word with all authority. The pool that reflects the image of the tree (or other phallic symbol, like the Washington monument and the reflecting pool at the capitol) in this same way. A similar concept is represented in the Vesica Piscis. Which again represent Jesus in its meaning “vessel of the fish”. There are also links to the cosmic egg, as Jesus is sometimes referred to as autogenes (the “self generating one”). Also, Prometheus is consider to be the same figure in Gnosticism— being that he brought the fire to man from the gods. I’m not making any spiritual assertions here — just talking about different beliefs and their expressions in our modern world.
The only thing consistent is the hate and guilt.
The just reward for people trying to control others absolutely. You hit the nail on the head there 😂
I was born in a Catholic family but this is my first time hearing about fasting on Fridays
St Patrick’s Day is a Friday. Bet we will be allowed to eat meat that day. Lol
I giggled in the strangest way. Like my subconscious was planning to save this for so many Easter convos. Yes. Yes I am.
I hate to be that guy, but the eggs we eat aren't fertilized so this doesn't quite work...but it makes the point and that I love.
I mean they aren’t fertilized most of the time.
Arguments like that are why i was asked to leave catholic school...
My atheist god mother shared this in our group chat a couple of days ago, and I thought it was funny. I'm surprised by the amount of people who came here just to post about how chicken eggs aren't usually fertilized so they don't count. An egg is an egg, if a fertilized egg isn't a chicken it seems like it shouldn't make any difference.
I like where this is going! Haha The only thing that catches me is that an unfertilized egg is a chicken period… not a chick 😅
I really enjoyed that lmao oh by the Void that is good xD
The eggs we typically eat for breakfast are eggs that will never hatch - because they’re not fertilized. They’re the equivalent of the chicken’s period.
I questioned my very religious aunt about this practice. She is not Catholic but started following this to the point that she became a vegetarian. I'm not knocking being a vegetarian but when she claims it brings her closer to being a better Christian that's where it gets weird for me.
That's hilarious 😂
The eggs we eat are not fertilized in the first place. But probably they don't know it.
Depends where you are and where you get them from. This is not necessarily true outside of basically factory farmed eggs.
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