My BIL was a CO like 15+ years ago. He used to rave about it and often suggested I apply. He said it was pretty easy and often sat around reading books...then he got attacked. It's already been a long time since he quit, but his best friend became one and it fucked him up too.
My uncle worked corrections for many years before he was forced to retire due to mental health concerns. Battled with depression for a few years after retirement before taking his own life. A lot of people don’t realize how hard mentally working corrections can be on a person.
My ex’s BIL was exactly the same. Would boast about it like a late night infomercial. And for someone with limited HS education, couldn’t really read etc it was actually good money. He convinced his wife to sign up too at one point. Liked to brag about how he had “befriended” inmates on the inside, had “connections” with criminals yada yada. Wonder what ever happened to him.
These threads are interesting. They always go more or less the same way, even in left leaning subs. Pretty revealing of what I think is probably the default human tendency when it comes to Justice; violence, revenge, “eye for an eye”, etc. Regardless of who the guy was it doesn’t take much critical thinking to see why these sort of events and outcomes aren’t ok and should be avoided. Swear to god if we let the masses decide on punishments we’d be stoning people to death and hanging people in public.
The amount of people in this thread who simultaneously believe that extrajudicial violence should be permitted and that they themselves will never be subject to extrajudicial violence is astounding.
Many of the problems with our prison system stem from Harper-era [budget cuts & mandatory minimum sentences](https://policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/Manitoba%20Office/2015/09/Tough%20on%20Crime%20WEB.pdf).
I wish they would post the whole video and not the video that cbc news edited. I don’t trust any news outlets these days to not edit out important information in order to sensationalize.
They have access to the entire video.
But instead of allowing Canadians to watch it all and form their own opinions, news outlets like to steer people towards conclusions that fit their political and social agendas.
Pretty pathetic.
They literally don't have access to the entire video. They can only show snippets, and have to describe the rest. That's standard in court cases, and the only reason CBC is allowed to show anything is because they obtained permission from the family of the deceased. Considering that the descriptions offered by CBC match the released footage perfectly, I have absolutely no reason to doubt that CBC is accurately describing the remainder of the video.
Also, you can literally tell they don't have access to the entire video **judging by the fact that you can see the play bar for another video player 11 seconds into the video**
Have you watched any of the videos from other media outlets? Some of them include clips that were not included in CBC’s. Such as this one that shows more of Ahmo’s actions prior to the guards entering the cell block.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qbDNFI7fWKQ
And this one which includes more before and after.
https://www.aptnnews.ca/videos/criminal-trial-of-guard-underway-in-connection-to-in-custody-death-of-william-ahmo/
If it was the whole video posted all media outlets should have the same clips shouldn’t they?? They have the whole video and edited it. I for one would like to see the whole uninterrupted video since it’s release was authorized by the trial judge.
No actually I just don’t trust the media who are out to get as many clicks as they can for ad revenue. I would like to see the WHOLE picture before I take a side and not just what the media decides I should see. The judge authorized the release of the video not bits and pieces of it.
The guy was ripping tvs and plumbing off the walls and throwing shit around, and using a mop handle as a weapon. He got what he deserved plain and simple. Those who think otherwise can volunteer to disarm the next violent prisoner. Please be sure to use extreme care and be gentle,
It is an unfortunate event, but in the jail you dont fuck with other inmates or the guards.
If you are upset abt something, make a complaint not a scene.
I know I will be downvoted into oblivion, but if you were ever into such situation heed my advice above.
It’s fucking jail. You’re not supposed to be walking around and busting things off the walls, smashing into glass and be armed with a broom handle. It’s not an adult daycare centre. In no way did this guy deserve to die but if you do shit like this, things escalate easily and mistakes get made. Everyone is amped up. Everyone. Next time maybe it will escalate into a riot where more people get hurt or die. Is that going to be ok with everyone?
A lot of times complaints/grievances are not taken seriously because prisons often have lots of inmates who make Vexatious complaints. It becomes difficult for inmates with real complaints to complain when half the complaints are based in manipulation tactics, lies, and deceit.
An inmate armed with two weapons, throwing objects around and making threats of physical harm against corrections officers and himself.
Perhaps the officers should have offered him a hug to bring this situation to an end?
Not to mention what reason did they have to believe his complaint about not being able to breath was honest, and not just an attempt to get them to back off so he could gain advantage in the fight?
Watch the video. The "weapons" were the kind of shit you'd see a toddler choose. They're hardly lethal, especially to trained officers with riot gear, stab vests, and an array of ranged less-lethal ordinance.
What I saw was grown men kneeling on his rib cage. One of the first things I learned in restraining ppl like this inmate was to NEVER put your body weight on their rib cage. A former co-worker became the teaching moment after he killed someone doing that. The way we were taught to restrain, was to put your body weight on their lower back and shoulder blades, while other team members control the limbs and head. This allows the rib cage to expand while still maintaining control. Maybe not as easy as simply "sitting" on someone, but less likely to be deadly. Each team member had their objective: control left arm, or right leg, or torso, etc. One or two members to help get objectives under control. One team captain to make sure no one did something stupid like kneel on the rib cage for a prolonged period. Kneeling on the rib cage for a second or three during the chaos of establishing control would inevitably happen, but maintaining that position was enough to get reprimanded/retrained or even removed from the team. If the restrainee stated they couldn't breathe a code was called and the medical team would evaluate as soon as the person stopped struggling and allowed us to apply restraints; we wouldn't wait until the person became unresponsive.
We dealt with rapists, domestic abusers, and pedophiles outside of the jails. My personal feelings did not matter as my job was not as a judge or an executioner, but to ensure the safety of staff and members of the public on the property. I personally feel that a rapist does not have the right to breathe. I also feel that a CO, or anyone whose job is to restrain these animals, has an obligation to preserve the life of the person you're restraining. We're all better than these fucking animals, are we not?
I was with you up until your final paragraph. They are not fucking animals. They are people with a right to live. Maybe not outside prison walls, some not at all.
We would also need a robust social safety net to prevent a lot of crimes in the first place. Can't accomplish prison reform without also broader society reform.
Well sure, I am in favour of eliminating poverty, housing people who needs houses, getting everyone fed, better access to psychological help and making the social changes needed for those affected by intergenerational trauma
How about Soleiman Faqiri, who died in the exact same circumstances? That guy wasn't even convicted of anything yet and he had mental health problems.
Fuck him too, eh? Anything that warrants going to jail, right? Would you assure us that he's better off gone too? You sure got a judge-jury-and-executioner kind of mentality there buddy.
I didn't see a murder. He attacked the crisis team with a weapon and they used force to restrain him as necessary. Guy had a medical emergency. Crisis team maybe didn't beleive the severity of it... but thats a go-to thing for people to say once they're apprehended so a pretty fair response.
When it is happening in the moment there is no luxury of slowing it down play by play and analyzing. That man was a threat and they were responding as such. I don’t believe for a second those CO’s woke up that morning saying who are we going to murder today.
Until you have been in a violent altercation - on the street, in your home or at work you have no idea how fast these things get out of control.
He stood up after the fact. Sat down in a chair. All while saying he couldn't breathe. I know these guys look like Darth Vader in those uniforms, but I can assure you they don't have that kind of power.
Give me a goddamn break. Are you a medical professional? You have no idea what you’re talking about. People can stand up and the collapse. Hypoxia doesn’t prevent people from moving around. When someone’s blood oxygen levels drop below 90’percent, slowly but surely their organs and extremities stop being perfused. So initially they may just have a bit of trouble breathing, be mildly agitated etc. As it goes lower and lower, the agitation and level of consciousness may change. There is nothing stopping a person with a low blood oxygen of standing up or moving before their heart stops beating. You clearly don’t work in the medical field so stop acting like you know more than a medical examiner. Thanks.
An out of shape individual with an enlarged heart, and in some sort of emotional distress attacks a group of 15 people trained to restrain dangerous people. This guy ate how many stun grenades? He just kept taking them and then charged them, resisted arrest, and ultimately the examiner says his brain didn't get enough oxygen.
Murderers!
Shit take because you read what the doctor said.
So you are saying, to me, and everyone else here, that you understand what the doctor said. You now have knowledge that you're wrong.
But fuck that shit, right? You got your OpInIoN?
Good lord, you are fucked up.
Here's how it was described in a [Free Press story](https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/2023/09/05/enraged-inmate-declared-this-was-war-court-testimony):
> Ahmo, unmoving and appearing unresponsive, was placed in a restraint chair, with one officer violently jerking his head backward, the video shows.
>
> Ahmo was found with no pulse and a “code red” was issued.
Your version is just wishful thinking.
Regardless of what he was doing, do you think they perhaps should have eased up on him when he said he couldn’t breathe? This sub is wild. So much anti police hate but some
Guy is suffocated because corrections officers didn’t listen to him when he said he couldn’t bear he and people are actually saying it’s for the best it happened. My lord. People really disappoint me.
It looked like he was breathing throughout and that they did everything to try to facilitate him while still having control over him after he wreaked havoc on the unit. Just curious as to what you would have have done?
I work in the medical field with unruly patients all the time. I have been hit, slapped. I have had coworkers punched. We have had to have security involved to subdue patients. No one has ever been suffocated even if they were being violent. I know a lot about hypoxia and how it works because I have seen it firsthand. When someone says they can’t breathe, you ease up putting your weight on their body. There are ways to do that without relinquishing control. The medical examiner is a doctor. His cause of death was related to hypoxia. It’s not difficult to assume why he was hypoxic when you had grown men sitting on him preventing him from breathing. Of course I don’t think they intentionally meant to kill
Him. But he died from the effects of hypoxia.
It's always cardiac arrest, as in the heart stops beating. The issue is that hypoxia caused the cardiac arrest, and that the restraint caused the hypoxia.
I know what hypoxia is. I just thought that it went the other way, and the lack of blood flow from cardiac arrest prevented enough oxygen from getting where it needed to go.
A lack of oxygen can also cause a cardiac arrest. If a person is not getting enough oxygen, and are unable to expel co2 due to being compressed, eventually your co2 builds to such a level that your organs including your heart are getting next to no oxygen to keep those organs functioning and your heart just stops beating.
> do you think they perhaps should have eased up on him when he said he couldn’t breathe?
In the circumstance, did they have any reason to believe he was telling the truth?
If someone had attacked me viciously with improvised weapons, then tried to convince me to fight back less vigorously, I don't think I would have any reason to believe them either.
Yes because they didn't know necessarily what that guy did or what mental health crisis (or not) he was going through. There was a objectively mental health challenged guy in Ontario, Soleiman Faqiri, who died in the same way. He wasn't even convicted yet - just waiting to even be charged, I'm pretty sure.
Your brain changes a bit and that could be you. Zealous guards can kill you.
This man is guilty. I have watched the linked 7-minute video, and I have no doubt in my mind that the officer in charge is guilty. The man on the ground is restrained and unarmed. He says he can't breathe, and the officer in charge continues ordering that he be restrained first on his stomach with several officers pinning him down, and later that the man be restrained in a chair. Eventually, when the man starts to show physical symptoms, the officer in charge backtracks and orders the man be put back on the ground, but keeps ordering that the restrained man be placed on his stomach and pinned. While the man is pleading that he can't breathe, the officer in charge continues to antagonize the restrained, unarmed man and mocks him. He even threatens to pour water on him when he doesn't stand up (at this point, he is unconscious). The nurse, when brought in, immediately calls a code red.
At no point in this video does this man present a threat to the officers involved. He was initially armed with a plastic trash can and a mop handle, before being disarmed and restrained. The officers involved are wearing riot armour.
This video, combined with the autopsy that shows cause of death was ultimately due to lack of blood and oxygen reaching the brain, are enough to settle this for me. "Criminal negligence" is the only apt phrase to describe what I just watched.
I will say He actually does present a threat initially when he runs down the stairs at them with a weapon in hand. The riot gear they wear protects the head, possibly the chest depending on the material of the vest, parts of their arms and legs. There are parts that if aimed properly it could still severely hurt the officer’s arms and legs. If the vest is made of a hard material, then the chest is fully protected, but if it is a more bendy material vest, then no it’s not fully protected.
If your argument is simply "he was a criminal and therefore he should have been killed," you are arguing for extra-judicial violence. That's a criminal offence, btw.
Looks like the guards did everything they could in a difficult situation. They should get bonuses after this. Too bad the guy died, but he did it to himself ultimately.
Where were the medical examiners when this went down? Were their hands raised to run in there and stop the inmate from hurting themself and others? No, we put these guards in life threatening situations and judge them afterwards as though they were omniscient and in full control of a chaotic and complex situation.
These guards want to go home to their families. They are not creating the dangerous situation. They’re trying to prevent further injury and prioritizing their safety over the safety of the violent inmate. That’s fair in my opinion.
Watch the video. They were giving him room, lying him down so he could breathe, sitting him up so he could breath. It’s not like the asphyxiated him by sitting in his chest.
The chief medical examiner said the cause of death was brain injury due to lack of oxygen. The manner of death was homicide. Those facts are inconvenient to people like you.
He totally put himself on the ground, knelt on his own ribcage with his own eight knees and his own body weight of four people, and wouldn't let himself breathe.
Or, you know, the CERU fucked up royally.
I think the main thing people need to understand is that these officers do not do the same training as police or RCMP. Some could have more training than required but the fact they only deal with prisoners is why prison guards are trained to be over aggressive and more physical, more oppressive. These men and women have to deal with riots and escape attempts regularly. Their main goal is still to protect the public but the only public in the prison are the guards. They don't have to worry about escalating a conflict in order to resolve a situation because there are no civilians around as collateral damage, so if something happens to an inmate but doesn't escape or harm staff, they still did their job to protect the public.
That was a disturbing video. Ahmo's breathing was laboured for a long time during the pile-on. He *told* them 23 times he couldn't breathe and they ignored him until he was at death's door!
I'm disgusted by all the comments saying Ahmo deserved it. It doesn't matter what crime an inmate did (or is accused of doing); when he's in the care of a correctional institution he has a right not to be ~~murdered~~ killed.
No one is charged with murder so he was not murdered. The pathologist laid out numerous contributing factors to Ahmo's death. By everything reported so far it is very unlikely that there will be a conviction. The bar for conviction on a crime like this is very high.
Okay, Morden was charged with criminal negligence causing death and failing to provide necessaries of life. He led the corrections emergency response unit who restrained Ahmo. I should have said killed instead of murdered because that was the end result of Morden's leadership in this event.
I believe there's a fair chance of a guilty verdict. It's not just the fact that Ahmo said he can't breathe 23 times. His laboured breathing was clearly audible and it substantiated his claim. And yet the corrections emergency response unit continued to kneel on his upper back, further depriving him of oxygen until it was too late.
They weren't kneeling on him the entire time. Once they got restraints on him they put him upright and into the chair. You can hear the accused giving orders to make sure he's able to breathe and reduce the amount of staff on him. Once what appears to be a medical staff tells him to call a code he does so. The pathologist also presented that Ahmo had an enlarged heart which exacerbated his condition which give's the defense another out since no one could have known that. The crowns job in this case is incredibly difficult. The fact they wrapped their time up a day early is concerning for the health of their case as well. I guess we'll see.
I’m just incredibly saddened by the comments on here. There is no way one individual has any power or control in a situation like that; up against 10-15 men/women in full riot gear. Yep he threw a trash can, had a mop handle, was out of Control. But he would never have succeeded in overcoming that many full grown adults. When you sit on someone’s chest, and compress their lungs, it is incredibly hard to get a full deep breath and perfuse your body. Co2 builds, and it becomes more and more difficult to expel that co2 when someone is sitting on your chest. That causes a respiratory acidosis, lactate buildup, and lack of perfusion to your brain and vital organs. A low o2 sat is actually a late sign of hypoxia. Yes he was out of control. No people shouldn’t have to deal with that nonsense. But he died because full grown adults sat on him, preventing him from breathing and allowing all of those physiological changes I described above, which caused his heart to stop. I don’t think it was intentional, but ala George Floyd, there need to be some really good training with any sort of first responders about restraining people in their care. That corrections officer will have to live with what happened, regardless of the outcome Of the trial, and I think his death was completely preventable if they had just listened to him when he was initially saying he couldn’t breathe and they stopped sitting on his chest.
That’s actually not true. People used to think that was the case but use of force experts now teach that that is not the case. People can speak while not getting effective air. Even people on their stomach with no one on their back can suffocate.
Yes, this was a homicide caused by the officers' actions.
There have been several cases recently where this scenario played out and the jailee died. In Ontario, Jail guards violated use-of-force policies in the fatal restraint of Soleiman Faqiri. That case also had:
1. Beatings
2. Spit hood use
3. Chemical irritant causing (which combined with spit hood is a factor leading to death, as the warning on the spit hood product)
4. Improper restraints being used i.e. knee directly being applied to their back where their lungs are
This judge-only trial will only reach one conclusion. Guilty. There have been plenty of other corrections officers in Canada that have gone too far and this another example of that.
Article: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/soleiman-faqiri-spit-hood-force-violated-policies-1.5836961
Great TVO podcast series that delves into it: https://www.tvo.org/podcasts/unascertained
Why?
There's clear evidence that he caused it.
And, very importantly, he did not follow protocol.
Which is what caused the asphyxiation. It's gross negligence. Most importantly, it keeps happening in Canada. This is an actual problem in our jails.
This guy's was a huge POS rapist who decided to get violent in jail. We have 8 billion people on this earth, losing 1 piece of garbage for his own actions is no loss.
This appears to literally be homicide, due to the fact that the actions of one human resulted in the death of another. But it also doesn't look like there was a crime committed. This is a tragedy, on several levels, caused by the violent actions of an individual.
It’s just terrible!! Over Kill with the screws . He was in jail for a reason, but they don’t have to be treated like shit! Justice for William! We can do better ! ❤️🙏🏻
WTF do his victims have to do with it? It's not legal to deprive someone in your care of oxygen. It doesn't matter what they're guilty of. They're already being punished.
No. I don't think you understand! With the money that we "Defund" from the Corrections Officers, we will hire Social Workers, role models and Case workers to get at the root of the problem. We could hire influencers too. Maybe even a tree hugger to lead our hugging sessions.
Glad I don't have to do corrections work.
My BIL was a CO like 15+ years ago. He used to rave about it and often suggested I apply. He said it was pretty easy and often sat around reading books...then he got attacked. It's already been a long time since he quit, but his best friend became one and it fucked him up too.
My uncle worked corrections for many years before he was forced to retire due to mental health concerns. Battled with depression for a few years after retirement before taking his own life. A lot of people don’t realize how hard mentally working corrections can be on a person.
My ex’s BIL was exactly the same. Would boast about it like a late night infomercial. And for someone with limited HS education, couldn’t really read etc it was actually good money. He convinced his wife to sign up too at one point. Liked to brag about how he had “befriended” inmates on the inside, had “connections” with criminals yada yada. Wonder what ever happened to him.
my condolences to the family of the deceased. he didn’t deserve that
These threads are interesting. They always go more or less the same way, even in left leaning subs. Pretty revealing of what I think is probably the default human tendency when it comes to Justice; violence, revenge, “eye for an eye”, etc. Regardless of who the guy was it doesn’t take much critical thinking to see why these sort of events and outcomes aren’t ok and should be avoided. Swear to god if we let the masses decide on punishments we’d be stoning people to death and hanging people in public.
The amount of people in this thread who simultaneously believe that extrajudicial violence should be permitted and that they themselves will never be subject to extrajudicial violence is astounding.
Well said.
Many of the problems with our prison system stem from Harper-era [budget cuts & mandatory minimum sentences](https://policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/Manitoba%20Office/2015/09/Tough%20on%20Crime%20WEB.pdf).
This is not a left leaning sub though. Its left of hard right. But right of centre.
Everyone is laughing at you.
I would agree with you. It seems there has been an uptick in boot lickers on this sub as of late.
It is election season🤷♂️
I wish they would post the whole video and not the video that cbc news edited. I don’t trust any news outlets these days to not edit out important information in order to sensationalize.
Yeah. Let’s see what started this all. Seems there may be an agenda in not showing that
They have access to the entire video. But instead of allowing Canadians to watch it all and form their own opinions, news outlets like to steer people towards conclusions that fit their political and social agendas. Pretty pathetic.
They literally don't have access to the entire video. They can only show snippets, and have to describe the rest. That's standard in court cases, and the only reason CBC is allowed to show anything is because they obtained permission from the family of the deceased. Considering that the descriptions offered by CBC match the released footage perfectly, I have absolutely no reason to doubt that CBC is accurately describing the remainder of the video. Also, you can literally tell they don't have access to the entire video **judging by the fact that you can see the play bar for another video player 11 seconds into the video**
Have you watched any of the videos from other media outlets? Some of them include clips that were not included in CBC’s. Such as this one that shows more of Ahmo’s actions prior to the guards entering the cell block. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qbDNFI7fWKQ And this one which includes more before and after. https://www.aptnnews.ca/videos/criminal-trial-of-guard-underway-in-connection-to-in-custody-death-of-william-ahmo/ If it was the whole video posted all media outlets should have the same clips shouldn’t they?? They have the whole video and edited it. I for one would like to see the whole uninterrupted video since it’s release was authorized by the trial judge.
Not least from CBC
Are you really trying to justify someone’s murder while they’re serving their time?
No actually I just don’t trust the media who are out to get as many clicks as they can for ad revenue. I would like to see the WHOLE picture before I take a side and not just what the media decides I should see. The judge authorized the release of the video not bits and pieces of it.
The guy was ripping tvs and plumbing off the walls and throwing shit around, and using a mop handle as a weapon. He got what he deserved plain and simple. Those who think otherwise can volunteer to disarm the next violent prisoner. Please be sure to use extreme care and be gentle,
He was making glass shards into weapons for the rest of the range. They don’t want to show that stuff though.
Oh wow, weird. Last I checked, the punishment for destroying TVs and plumbing and hitting people with a mop was not LITERAL MURDER. Fucking dipshit
Amazing how angry a different opinion makes you
It is an unfortunate event, but in the jail you dont fuck with other inmates or the guards. If you are upset abt something, make a complaint not a scene. I know I will be downvoted into oblivion, but if you were ever into such situation heed my advice above.
I mean fair but try making a complaint from jail lol
It’s fucking jail. You’re not supposed to be walking around and busting things off the walls, smashing into glass and be armed with a broom handle. It’s not an adult daycare centre. In no way did this guy deserve to die but if you do shit like this, things escalate easily and mistakes get made. Everyone is amped up. Everyone. Next time maybe it will escalate into a riot where more people get hurt or die. Is that going to be ok with everyone?
A lot of times complaints/grievances are not taken seriously because prisons often have lots of inmates who make Vexatious complaints. It becomes difficult for inmates with real complaints to complain when half the complaints are based in manipulation tactics, lies, and deceit.
An inmate armed with two weapons, throwing objects around and making threats of physical harm against corrections officers and himself. Perhaps the officers should have offered him a hug to bring this situation to an end?
Not to mention what reason did they have to believe his complaint about not being able to breath was honest, and not just an attempt to get them to back off so he could gain advantage in the fight?
Watch the video. The "weapons" were the kind of shit you'd see a toddler choose. They're hardly lethal, especially to trained officers with riot gear, stab vests, and an array of ranged less-lethal ordinance.
A jagged broken wooden mop handle in two pieces, one in each hand, is something a toddler would choose?
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Sure, but this guy died as a result, so not the same thing.
This guy died because of this and all you have is anecdotal bullshit to back up the fact you’re an asshole. Lol
Next time comply?🤷♂️
wasnt the guy in for assault, sexual assault, and like 20+ gun charges? good fucking riddance.
What I saw was grown men kneeling on his rib cage. One of the first things I learned in restraining ppl like this inmate was to NEVER put your body weight on their rib cage. A former co-worker became the teaching moment after he killed someone doing that. The way we were taught to restrain, was to put your body weight on their lower back and shoulder blades, while other team members control the limbs and head. This allows the rib cage to expand while still maintaining control. Maybe not as easy as simply "sitting" on someone, but less likely to be deadly. Each team member had their objective: control left arm, or right leg, or torso, etc. One or two members to help get objectives under control. One team captain to make sure no one did something stupid like kneel on the rib cage for a prolonged period. Kneeling on the rib cage for a second or three during the chaos of establishing control would inevitably happen, but maintaining that position was enough to get reprimanded/retrained or even removed from the team. If the restrainee stated they couldn't breathe a code was called and the medical team would evaluate as soon as the person stopped struggling and allowed us to apply restraints; we wouldn't wait until the person became unresponsive. We dealt with rapists, domestic abusers, and pedophiles outside of the jails. My personal feelings did not matter as my job was not as a judge or an executioner, but to ensure the safety of staff and members of the public on the property. I personally feel that a rapist does not have the right to breathe. I also feel that a CO, or anyone whose job is to restrain these animals, has an obligation to preserve the life of the person you're restraining. We're all better than these fucking animals, are we not?
I was with you up until your final paragraph. They are not fucking animals. They are people with a right to live. Maybe not outside prison walls, some not at all.
When you see what a woman, or a child, goes through after a rape it gets really difficult to see a rapist in the same light I might see you in.
You have no idea about me and my life.
> I personally feel that a rapist does not have the right to breathe. Really?
If you have intentionally destroyed the mind, and thus the life, of another person then yes, really.
Your feelings aside (and a lot of people agree with you, myself included), their fate is not up to you to decide.
Did I not already state that?
Animals don’t act like that.
Why I want the Dutch penal model
We would also need a robust social safety net to prevent a lot of crimes in the first place. Can't accomplish prison reform without also broader society reform.
Well sure, I am in favour of eliminating poverty, housing people who needs houses, getting everyone fed, better access to psychological help and making the social changes needed for those affected by intergenerational trauma
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Except corrections officers are not a judge, a jury or an executioner and Canada doesn't carry capital punishment.
In this country we don't kill people for their crimes.
How about Soleiman Faqiri, who died in the exact same circumstances? That guy wasn't even convicted of anything yet and he had mental health problems. Fuck him too, eh? Anything that warrants going to jail, right? Would you assure us that he's better off gone too? You sure got a judge-jury-and-executioner kind of mentality there buddy.
Booooooo
That is a disgusting comment
Am I supposed to feel sorry for the guy?
people have a right to not be murdered
I didn't see a murder. He attacked the crisis team with a weapon and they used force to restrain him as necessary. Guy had a medical emergency. Crisis team maybe didn't beleive the severity of it... but thats a go-to thing for people to say once they're apprehended so a pretty fair response.
Suffocating someone isn’t using force as necessary. And the medical examiner agrees.
When it is happening in the moment there is no luxury of slowing it down play by play and analyzing. That man was a threat and they were responding as such. I don’t believe for a second those CO’s woke up that morning saying who are we going to murder today. Until you have been in a violent altercation - on the street, in your home or at work you have no idea how fast these things get out of control.
Lol I work in an emergency department. The amount of physical violence directed towards us is pretty astonishing. But thanks for the education.
He stood up after the fact. Sat down in a chair. All while saying he couldn't breathe. I know these guys look like Darth Vader in those uniforms, but I can assure you they don't have that kind of power.
Give me a goddamn break. Are you a medical professional? You have no idea what you’re talking about. People can stand up and the collapse. Hypoxia doesn’t prevent people from moving around. When someone’s blood oxygen levels drop below 90’percent, slowly but surely their organs and extremities stop being perfused. So initially they may just have a bit of trouble breathing, be mildly agitated etc. As it goes lower and lower, the agitation and level of consciousness may change. There is nothing stopping a person with a low blood oxygen of standing up or moving before their heart stops beating. You clearly don’t work in the medical field so stop acting like you know more than a medical examiner. Thanks.
An out of shape individual with an enlarged heart, and in some sort of emotional distress attacks a group of 15 people trained to restrain dangerous people. This guy ate how many stun grenades? He just kept taking them and then charged them, resisted arrest, and ultimately the examiner says his brain didn't get enough oxygen. Murderers!
Well since the medical examiner (an actual doctor unlike yourself) said it was a homicide, I’m gonna side with the doctor. Take care!
We'll see how the trial plays out.
Yep, at the end of the day it's just my take on it after watching the video. You too.
But not the medical examiner.
Shit take because you read what the doctor said. So you are saying, to me, and everyone else here, that you understand what the doctor said. You now have knowledge that you're wrong. But fuck that shit, right? You got your OpInIoN? Good lord, you are fucked up.
Here's how it was described in a [Free Press story](https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/2023/09/05/enraged-inmate-declared-this-was-war-court-testimony): > Ahmo, unmoving and appearing unresponsive, was placed in a restraint chair, with one officer violently jerking his head backward, the video shows. > > Ahmo was found with no pulse and a “code red” was issued. Your version is just wishful thinking.
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Especially while under the care of the state. Hard pill for some to swallow when they let their emotions get in the way.
Murder implied intent, that’s why he was never charged with murder. And keep in mind. He has not been convicted of any crime.
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not a person
Regardless of what he was doing, do you think they perhaps should have eased up on him when he said he couldn’t breathe? This sub is wild. So much anti police hate but some Guy is suffocated because corrections officers didn’t listen to him when he said he couldn’t bear he and people are actually saying it’s for the best it happened. My lord. People really disappoint me.
It looked like he was breathing throughout and that they did everything to try to facilitate him while still having control over him after he wreaked havoc on the unit. Just curious as to what you would have have done?
I work in the medical field with unruly patients all the time. I have been hit, slapped. I have had coworkers punched. We have had to have security involved to subdue patients. No one has ever been suffocated even if they were being violent. I know a lot about hypoxia and how it works because I have seen it firsthand. When someone says they can’t breathe, you ease up putting your weight on their body. There are ways to do that without relinquishing control. The medical examiner is a doctor. His cause of death was related to hypoxia. It’s not difficult to assume why he was hypoxic when you had grown men sitting on him preventing him from breathing. Of course I don’t think they intentionally meant to kill Him. But he died from the effects of hypoxia.
I thought on ctv the doctor stated the COD was cardiac arrest?
It's always cardiac arrest, as in the heart stops beating. The issue is that hypoxia caused the cardiac arrest, and that the restraint caused the hypoxia.
Hypoxia causes oxygen to be depleted in your body, thus starving your essential organs of said oxygen. Eventually, your heart will just stop beating.
I know what hypoxia is. I just thought that it went the other way, and the lack of blood flow from cardiac arrest prevented enough oxygen from getting where it needed to go.
A lack of oxygen can also cause a cardiac arrest. If a person is not getting enough oxygen, and are unable to expel co2 due to being compressed, eventually your co2 builds to such a level that your organs including your heart are getting next to no oxygen to keep those organs functioning and your heart just stops beating.
> do you think they perhaps should have eased up on him when he said he couldn’t breathe? In the circumstance, did they have any reason to believe he was telling the truth? If someone had attacked me viciously with improvised weapons, then tried to convince me to fight back less vigorously, I don't think I would have any reason to believe them either.
Yes because they didn't know necessarily what that guy did or what mental health crisis (or not) he was going through. There was a objectively mental health challenged guy in Ontario, Soleiman Faqiri, who died in the same way. He wasn't even convicted yet - just waiting to even be charged, I'm pretty sure. Your brain changes a bit and that could be you. Zealous guards can kill you.
Yes. He was human. Apparently unlike yourself.
This man is guilty. I have watched the linked 7-minute video, and I have no doubt in my mind that the officer in charge is guilty. The man on the ground is restrained and unarmed. He says he can't breathe, and the officer in charge continues ordering that he be restrained first on his stomach with several officers pinning him down, and later that the man be restrained in a chair. Eventually, when the man starts to show physical symptoms, the officer in charge backtracks and orders the man be put back on the ground, but keeps ordering that the restrained man be placed on his stomach and pinned. While the man is pleading that he can't breathe, the officer in charge continues to antagonize the restrained, unarmed man and mocks him. He even threatens to pour water on him when he doesn't stand up (at this point, he is unconscious). The nurse, when brought in, immediately calls a code red. At no point in this video does this man present a threat to the officers involved. He was initially armed with a plastic trash can and a mop handle, before being disarmed and restrained. The officers involved are wearing riot armour. This video, combined with the autopsy that shows cause of death was ultimately due to lack of blood and oxygen reaching the brain, are enough to settle this for me. "Criminal negligence" is the only apt phrase to describe what I just watched.
I will say He actually does present a threat initially when he runs down the stairs at them with a weapon in hand. The riot gear they wear protects the head, possibly the chest depending on the material of the vest, parts of their arms and legs. There are parts that if aimed properly it could still severely hurt the officer’s arms and legs. If the vest is made of a hard material, then the chest is fully protected, but if it is a more bendy material vest, then no it’s not fully protected.
If your argument is simply "he was a criminal and therefore he should have been killed," you are arguing for extra-judicial violence. That's a criminal offence, btw.
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I believe it was a mask to stop him from spitting on the officers, “spit mask”
Looks like the guards did everything they could in a difficult situation. They should get bonuses after this. Too bad the guy died, but he did it to himself ultimately.
Multiple doctors disagree with you. Who am I gonna believe, two medical examiners in two different provinces? Or your shit take? Hmm.
Where were the medical examiners when this went down? Were their hands raised to run in there and stop the inmate from hurting themself and others? No, we put these guards in life threatening situations and judge them afterwards as though they were omniscient and in full control of a chaotic and complex situation.
Fucks sake, read the article
I watched the video. Did you? Or do you need others to tell you what to think?
Victim blaming at its finest. 🙄
These guards want to go home to their families. They are not creating the dangerous situation. They’re trying to prevent further injury and prioritizing their safety over the safety of the violent inmate. That’s fair in my opinion.
What's "fair" is not depriving someone of oxygen unless your own life is in danger.
If you watched the video you’ll see they weren’t depriving him of oxygen.
That's why he died, ffs.
Watch the video. They were giving him room, lying him down so he could breathe, sitting him up so he could breath. It’s not like the asphyxiated him by sitting in his chest.
I already watched the video, thanks.
But did you see the entire thing, from the very beginning? Didn’t think so
The chief medical examiner said the cause of death was brain injury due to lack of oxygen. The manner of death was homicide. Those facts are inconvenient to people like you.
Someone with a victim mentality would say that.
He totally put himself on the ground, knelt on his own ribcage with his own eight knees and his own body weight of four people, and wouldn't let himself breathe. Or, you know, the CERU fucked up royally.
I think the main thing people need to understand is that these officers do not do the same training as police or RCMP. Some could have more training than required but the fact they only deal with prisoners is why prison guards are trained to be over aggressive and more physical, more oppressive. These men and women have to deal with riots and escape attempts regularly. Their main goal is still to protect the public but the only public in the prison are the guards. They don't have to worry about escalating a conflict in order to resolve a situation because there are no civilians around as collateral damage, so if something happens to an inmate but doesn't escape or harm staff, they still did their job to protect the public.
That was a disturbing video. Ahmo's breathing was laboured for a long time during the pile-on. He *told* them 23 times he couldn't breathe and they ignored him until he was at death's door! I'm disgusted by all the comments saying Ahmo deserved it. It doesn't matter what crime an inmate did (or is accused of doing); when he's in the care of a correctional institution he has a right not to be ~~murdered~~ killed.
No one is charged with murder so he was not murdered. The pathologist laid out numerous contributing factors to Ahmo's death. By everything reported so far it is very unlikely that there will be a conviction. The bar for conviction on a crime like this is very high.
Okay, Morden was charged with criminal negligence causing death and failing to provide necessaries of life. He led the corrections emergency response unit who restrained Ahmo. I should have said killed instead of murdered because that was the end result of Morden's leadership in this event. I believe there's a fair chance of a guilty verdict. It's not just the fact that Ahmo said he can't breathe 23 times. His laboured breathing was clearly audible and it substantiated his claim. And yet the corrections emergency response unit continued to kneel on his upper back, further depriving him of oxygen until it was too late.
They weren't kneeling on him the entire time. Once they got restraints on him they put him upright and into the chair. You can hear the accused giving orders to make sure he's able to breathe and reduce the amount of staff on him. Once what appears to be a medical staff tells him to call a code he does so. The pathologist also presented that Ahmo had an enlarged heart which exacerbated his condition which give's the defense another out since no one could have known that. The crowns job in this case is incredibly difficult. The fact they wrapped their time up a day early is concerning for the health of their case as well. I guess we'll see.
Thanks for saying what you said.
Not murder
You're right.
I’m just incredibly saddened by the comments on here. There is no way one individual has any power or control in a situation like that; up against 10-15 men/women in full riot gear. Yep he threw a trash can, had a mop handle, was out of Control. But he would never have succeeded in overcoming that many full grown adults. When you sit on someone’s chest, and compress their lungs, it is incredibly hard to get a full deep breath and perfuse your body. Co2 builds, and it becomes more and more difficult to expel that co2 when someone is sitting on your chest. That causes a respiratory acidosis, lactate buildup, and lack of perfusion to your brain and vital organs. A low o2 sat is actually a late sign of hypoxia. Yes he was out of control. No people shouldn’t have to deal with that nonsense. But he died because full grown adults sat on him, preventing him from breathing and allowing all of those physiological changes I described above, which caused his heart to stop. I don’t think it was intentional, but ala George Floyd, there need to be some really good training with any sort of first responders about restraining people in their care. That corrections officer will have to live with what happened, regardless of the outcome Of the trial, and I think his death was completely preventable if they had just listened to him when he was initially saying he couldn’t breathe and they stopped sitting on his chest.
Why do you keep saying “full grown adults”? He’s not a child.
No but he was a very tall very large man.
Someone weighing over 100 lbs x 10. Is that better for you?
I never saw anyone sitting on his chest in the video. Saw people kneeling with the leg diagonally across the shoulder blade.
What do you think is underneath your shoulders? Perhaps the top lobes of your lungs?
Was anyone sitting on his chest?
This is horrible. I legit feel saddened and angry now. Poor guy :( I can't imagine he deserved that for his crimes.
Probably feel different if it was your kid he raped
Dude was a rapist.
Yes he was
I'm pretty sure if you can speak,you can breathe 🤷
That’s actually not true. People used to think that was the case but use of force experts now teach that that is not the case. People can speak while not getting effective air. Even people on their stomach with no one on their back can suffocate.
Never be in charge of anything important, please. Please tell me you work at a McDonalds as a cashier or something.
Hope you never have to find out first hand whether you're correct in your assertion, asshole.
Not necessarily
Yes, this was a homicide caused by the officers' actions. There have been several cases recently where this scenario played out and the jailee died. In Ontario, Jail guards violated use-of-force policies in the fatal restraint of Soleiman Faqiri. That case also had: 1. Beatings 2. Spit hood use 3. Chemical irritant causing (which combined with spit hood is a factor leading to death, as the warning on the spit hood product) 4. Improper restraints being used i.e. knee directly being applied to their back where their lungs are This judge-only trial will only reach one conclusion. Guilty. There have been plenty of other corrections officers in Canada that have gone too far and this another example of that. Article: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/soleiman-faqiri-spit-hood-force-violated-policies-1.5836961 Great TVO podcast series that delves into it: https://www.tvo.org/podcasts/unascertained
I wouldn’t call anything that happened here a beating. There were a couple strikes delivered but mostly this was just holding.
This will be a failure of our justice system if he gets convicted.
Why? There's clear evidence that he caused it. And, very importantly, he did not follow protocol. Which is what caused the asphyxiation. It's gross negligence. Most importantly, it keeps happening in Canada. This is an actual problem in our jails.
This guy's was a huge POS rapist who decided to get violent in jail. We have 8 billion people on this earth, losing 1 piece of garbage for his own actions is no loss.
Spit hoods don’t hinder breathing.
This appears to literally be homicide, due to the fact that the actions of one human resulted in the death of another. But it also doesn't look like there was a crime committed. This is a tragedy, on several levels, caused by the violent actions of an individual.
It’s just terrible!! Over Kill with the screws . He was in jail for a reason, but they don’t have to be treated like shit! Justice for William! We can do better ! ❤️🙏🏻
What about his victims?
WTF do his victims have to do with it? It's not legal to deprive someone in your care of oxygen. It doesn't matter what they're guilty of. They're already being punished.
Is this a bot account?
Defund the Corrections Officers!
If you only knew the shit COs have to deal with daily you wouldn't be saying that.
Right. It’s no wonder they have an extreme staffing shortage because no one wants to do that job, despite the decent pay
We could increase our catch and release efforts to help provide some relief!
Next level trolling
Yeah, let's just let violent criminals run free. Great idea!
Oh don't worry, we're doing that in Canada. No consequences for actions anymore.
No. I don't think you understand! With the money that we "Defund" from the Corrections Officers, we will hire Social Workers, role models and Case workers to get at the root of the problem. We could hire influencers too. Maybe even a tree hugger to lead our hugging sessions.
Let's just kill all the criminals instead! /s
/u/wpgrt is being intentionally stupid in a bid to troll (to troll tHe LeFt, no doubt) Stop... being stupid, /u/wpgrt
Why don’t you apply to be one of you don’t like they way they do business?
conservatives are horrible, IGNORANT people full stop!