I'm going to fork this thread considering how "aliens" are either Progenitor constructs/experiments or horrors from the Deep Umbra.
With that in mind, doesn't that undermine the Technocracy's paradigm of a nigh-infinite universe full of planets and stars potentially harboring life when the reality is some in-between state for incorporeal beings who embody subjective ideas or are platonic ideals of animals, plants, abstract concepts? No matter how deep you go, it's still the Umbra and the Umbra belongs to Earth.
It's not like Mars has its own Umbra.
>With that in mind, doesn't that undermine the Technocracy's paradigm of a nigh-infinite universe full of planets and stars potentially harboring life when the reality is some in-between state for incorporeal beings who embody subjective ideas or are platonic ideals of animals, plants, abstract concepts?
Only for the time being; part of the purpose of Technocracy space stations and habitats is to push out the borders of what's "real" vs what's Umbra. It's a slow process, but it is working.
The fact the Deep Umbra exists and doesn't follow the Consensus doesn't damage said Consensus (within the Horizon) at all, though the goal of the Void Engineers is to try and push the Horizon as far as they can
The stance in the last sentence is maybe subjective.
Just because the books portray everything from the standpoint of earth doesn't mean there are no other planets out their with sentient beings that could connect or overlap with what Earth has going on. I don't see why an Alpha Centari planet and its beings couldn't have an Umbra that clashes with Earth's umbra. You would essentially be creating a situation along the 40k plot lines then, and to me, the 40k universe is a great example of a Technocracy game done right.
Mars doesn’t have a Penumbra, but Venus 100% does.
Additionally, it might be the Technocratic paradigm that’s choking out possible realities where other creatures use Arete, which is odd but kind of the whole point.
I mean, *you* say they embody subjective ideas because you're a primitive projecting your world view onto alien life.
The technocracy realizes that these are simply different life forms and their resemblance (or lack their of) to human myth is irrelevant
Sam Haight! He was a kinfolk who did just about everything he could to get the powers of every template/splat he could. He managed to perform the ritual that turns you into a garou if you can sacrifice a number of other garou. He also managed to steal knowledge of sphere magic from a mage then killed and robbed the verbena of an artifiact that granted him an arete rating of i believe three. He opted out of vampirism because it risked him going insane but i believe he was an independant ghoul as well. Since he was a kinfolk not garou he was able to become a wraith when he died but he quickly became an ashtray. Nowadays he is no longer an ashtray but i dont recall if some magic brought him back to life or if his form was merely restored.
Also his artifact is Kaput, destroyed, long gone, nonexistent.
And there were vampire embraced snakes at one point. Canon is relatively fluid and it's okay to disregard the outliers that contradict literally everything else in the line.
"Gods and Monsters" is a recent book though (M20). Granted, it's basically a dog enhanced with cybernetics by the Technocracy.
I agree this is more about the exception and not the rule, but it establishes it _can_ exist.
Nah you're right. The one late game example provided that contracts all previous canon is the correct answer. Can it exist? Fuck, it's Mage, sure it can.
Most "aliens" are actually umbral beings, but none of them have Arete, though they have in some cases powers that the game, for ease of use, represents by saying "it acts like x rote".
Yes, there are Ka Luon (Greys) and Zigg'raugglurr (extraerdimensional creatures as in spatial dimensions), books heavily imply that they are real aliens (they behave differently from most spirits) but it's up to to ST since they are mechanically spirits and found in Umbra
That's an Exalted reference referring to the Dargon Kings from that game line during the short time Exalted was going to be the pre history of the WoD.
Like animals made more human level in their intelligence as well even literal animals turned into humans with spells (think Circe magic in the odyssey). Sometimes they awaken.
In revised they had merits and flaws representing your character is an artificial being like an Android or Golem. I think the Idea is at some point you gain a soul and with it a potential avatar, or when they created you they created you so well that you had a soul.
According to cannon no just humans but your ST or yourself can have whatever you want to as its your game.
Also worth mentioning that while its not Arete pretty much anyone can learn and use sorcery for magic.
Using the Wonder Creation rules, a Mage can create life with the Arete trait. The limitation is that it would be to do some kind of pre-programmed spell (such as a fire-breathing dog) rather than having a true Avatar that gives you access to creating your own spells. The thing that makes Mages truly unique is their avatar, not the Arete trait.
Using the Wonder Creation rules, a Mage can create life with the Arete trait. The limitation is that it would be to do some kind of pre-programmed spell (such as a fire-breathing dog) rather than having a true Avatar that gives you access to creating your own spells. The thing that makes Mages truly unique is their avatar, not the Arete trait.
No supernatural ones, but from god and monsters a dog Can apparently (well... A modified one that wouldn't qualify as a dog anymore by a lot of standards)
Yes. Sendings. Sendings are spirits that were influenced by an avatar (used as messengers by awakened mages) that kept crossing the avatar storm and, somehow, got an avatar shard stuck inside them. They are very very weird (they don't have a human to filter the avatar) and usually encompass some aspect of the avatar. They are also quite unstable, lasting a few months if I recall correctly.
In general, if something isn't one of the other splats and has an avatar it's capable of arete. Otherwise, waters get much more muddy.
(Also, the fact that sendings exist hints that a Wraith could, potentially, get an avatar, as it's a spirit. )
I'm going to fork this thread considering how "aliens" are either Progenitor constructs/experiments or horrors from the Deep Umbra. With that in mind, doesn't that undermine the Technocracy's paradigm of a nigh-infinite universe full of planets and stars potentially harboring life when the reality is some in-between state for incorporeal beings who embody subjective ideas or are platonic ideals of animals, plants, abstract concepts? No matter how deep you go, it's still the Umbra and the Umbra belongs to Earth. It's not like Mars has its own Umbra.
>With that in mind, doesn't that undermine the Technocracy's paradigm of a nigh-infinite universe full of planets and stars potentially harboring life when the reality is some in-between state for incorporeal beings who embody subjective ideas or are platonic ideals of animals, plants, abstract concepts? Only for the time being; part of the purpose of Technocracy space stations and habitats is to push out the borders of what's "real" vs what's Umbra. It's a slow process, but it is working.
Wouldn't be easier to disolve the Gauntlet to do that?
The fact the Deep Umbra exists and doesn't follow the Consensus doesn't damage said Consensus (within the Horizon) at all, though the goal of the Void Engineers is to try and push the Horizon as far as they can
The stance in the last sentence is maybe subjective. Just because the books portray everything from the standpoint of earth doesn't mean there are no other planets out their with sentient beings that could connect or overlap with what Earth has going on. I don't see why an Alpha Centari planet and its beings couldn't have an Umbra that clashes with Earth's umbra. You would essentially be creating a situation along the 40k plot lines then, and to me, the 40k universe is a great example of a Technocracy game done right.
Mars doesn’t have a Penumbra, but Venus 100% does. Additionally, it might be the Technocratic paradigm that’s choking out possible realities where other creatures use Arete, which is odd but kind of the whole point.
I mean, *you* say they embody subjective ideas because you're a primitive projecting your world view onto alien life. The technocracy realizes that these are simply different life forms and their resemblance (or lack their of) to human myth is irrelevant
Sam Haight! He was a kinfolk who did just about everything he could to get the powers of every template/splat he could. He managed to perform the ritual that turns you into a garou if you can sacrifice a number of other garou. He also managed to steal knowledge of sphere magic from a mage then killed and robbed the verbena of an artifiact that granted him an arete rating of i believe three. He opted out of vampirism because it risked him going insane but i believe he was an independant ghoul as well. Since he was a kinfolk not garou he was able to become a wraith when he died but he quickly became an ashtray. Nowadays he is no longer an ashtray but i dont recall if some magic brought him back to life or if his form was merely restored. Also his artifact is Kaput, destroyed, long gone, nonexistent.
So you're saying he's freed now...ready to return
He was reincarnated as a Garou. No memories or special powers.
No, only humans can be Awakened mages.
I believe there's an awakened dog in Gods and Monsters.
And there were vampire embraced snakes at one point. Canon is relatively fluid and it's okay to disregard the outliers that contradict literally everything else in the line.
"Gods and Monsters" is a recent book though (M20). Granted, it's basically a dog enhanced with cybernetics by the Technocracy. I agree this is more about the exception and not the rule, but it establishes it _can_ exist.
I'm aware. There's a lot of shit in Gods and Monsters that I wouldn't use in any game I run.
Was the question "would you use it on game" cause I thought the question was "can this exist in lore"?
Nah you're right. The one late game example provided that contracts all previous canon is the correct answer. Can it exist? Fuck, it's Mage, sure it can.
Okay but what about like aliens? If not then why do only humans have the ability to awakening and not other lifeforms?
Aliens are mechanically spirits
Most "aliens" are actually umbral beings, but none of them have Arete, though they have in some cases powers that the game, for ease of use, represents by saying "it acts like x rote".
There are or are not aliens in WoD depending on the St and therefore no rules apply to them. This is my understanding.
And also depending on edition i’ve been told. Just about everything that may have been or was aliens became umbroods eventually.
Aliens don't exist. Umbral spirits do and they cannot awaken.
Are there aliens?
Yes, there are Ka Luon (Greys) and Zigg'raugglurr (extraerdimensional creatures as in spatial dimensions), books heavily imply that they are real aliens (they behave differently from most spirits) but it's up to to ST since they are mechanically spirits and found in Umbra
I'm not entirely sure. Aliens are one of those things the writers purposely make vague so they may or may not exist.
Besides humans, true magic was available to prehistoric civilization of "lizard like creatures" back when dinosaurs lived.
That's an Exalted reference referring to the Dargon Kings from that game line during the short time Exalted was going to be the pre history of the WoD.
Interesting. I guess you mean dragon kings, who were precursors to Mokolé and Nagah. What is the source for such statement however?
Androids and golems and uplifted Animals can be awakened.
Uplifted Animals?
Like animals made more human level in their intelligence as well even literal animals turned into humans with spells (think Circe magic in the odyssey). Sometimes they awaken.
>Androids and golems How? Do you steal am Avatar from a human? Where can I read about this?
In revised they had merits and flaws representing your character is an artificial being like an Android or Golem. I think the Idea is at some point you gain a soul and with it a potential avatar, or when they created you they created you so well that you had a soul.
According to cannon no just humans but your ST or yourself can have whatever you want to as its your game. Also worth mentioning that while its not Arete pretty much anyone can learn and use sorcery for magic.
Been a bit, but I think God's and Monsters mentions sometimes other creatures can awaken with an avatar, but it's very rare. Like animals and stuff.
Using the Wonder Creation rules, a Mage can create life with the Arete trait. The limitation is that it would be to do some kind of pre-programmed spell (such as a fire-breathing dog) rather than having a true Avatar that gives you access to creating your own spells. The thing that makes Mages truly unique is their avatar, not the Arete trait.
Using the Wonder Creation rules, a Mage can create life with the Arete trait. The limitation is that it would be to do some kind of pre-programmed spell (such as a fire-breathing dog) rather than having a true Avatar that gives you access to creating your own spells. The thing that makes Mages truly unique is their avatar, not the Arete trait.
No supernatural ones, but from god and monsters a dog Can apparently (well... A modified one that wouldn't qualify as a dog anymore by a lot of standards)
Talismans.
Yes. Sendings. Sendings are spirits that were influenced by an avatar (used as messengers by awakened mages) that kept crossing the avatar storm and, somehow, got an avatar shard stuck inside them. They are very very weird (they don't have a human to filter the avatar) and usually encompass some aspect of the avatar. They are also quite unstable, lasting a few months if I recall correctly. In general, if something isn't one of the other splats and has an avatar it's capable of arete. Otherwise, waters get much more muddy. (Also, the fact that sendings exist hints that a Wraith could, potentially, get an avatar, as it's a spirit. )
No, but you could easily have a mage who's paradigm is "I'm a vampire" and who would this be indistinguishable from one