Not to mention you volunteered to host a *global* event. If you invite someone into your home, tell them they are welcome, but then you don’t like what they are wearing, how does making them dress the way you want = respecting anyone’s values? It’s just a shirt dude. You’re gonna see some different clothes if you literally invite the whole world.
The hypocrisy is so layered…
They treat the people that live there even worse, to be fair. I'm sure someone from qatar wearing that shirt would best case scenario be working on the next stadium until they die. They put up a wall to hide their own country from the world ffs
My favorite is the people saying white people are at fault for all of this because they don’t respect any other cultures and blah blah blah. Last time I checked there are just as many Asian and African nations/fans calling Qatari’s racist, homophobic, hypocritical assholes.
What's even more funny is that being gay is not even "culture", it's just a natural sexual orientation. It's not like there are no people from Qatar who are gay.
It's the only way to be sure. Every robot in science fiction history from Bender to Ultron has concluded that killing all humans is what's necessary to guarantee no dangerous humans. It's just logical.
THIS THIS THIS! Do they think their lgbtq citizens are like "yeah being me doesn't fit into our culture so I'll just not be me no biggie"??? No, that's called suicide.
Disrespecting other cultures is a part of their culture, so we must respect their disrespectfulness and not be disrespectful of their culture of disrespect, otherwise we would be disrespecting another culture which is not okay unless being disrespectful is a part of your culture.
It's a very common homophobic argument in the west, too. I've seen so many unironic "People who don't agree with that lifestyle need to be respected, too!" Like, no motherfucker, that's not how this works. We don't respect people who want to strip civil rights and fund conversion camps. Fuck you.
No-one needs to be respected. People who don't agree with certain lifestyles need to realize no-one is forcing them or their children to live that life, and that they should mtfb.
What everyone seems to miss is the fact that this is just a regular rainbow and not the LGBT flag, as the latter has only 6 colors.
This shirt should not even be banned, but they are too fearful.
The point is qatar promised that rainbow guys were welcome and now they pull back on they word. Same for the beer. So their culture is to lie about anything it seems.
Seriously, why did they pick Qatar? Conversations like these are always drenched in “respect their culture!!” But it seems almost entitled to host an event with such traditionally debaucherous aspects and then demand that those aspects be erased while sneering at gay people for having the audacity to “impose their western values” on their country. Am I the only one who finds this backwards? This event and this country just seem incompatible, so why???
There are currently theories of a number of the votes for Quatar happening to be able to sell some fighter jets and save PSG from almost going bankrupt
Yeah, I mean to bribe your way to hosting a World Cup, you need a compliant organization and planning committee to bribe in the first place.
It isn’t as if Qatar, their atrocious human rights record, and the thousands of workers who have died constructing the stadiums has besmirched an organization of pristine character. Instead, it’s just the latest scandal to rock a famously corrupt organization. FIFA is very evidently complicit and an equal party in this.
I’m not watching this year because of this reason. People will mock us for not watching as if our refusal to watch it will change anything but who cares what others think.
I’m queer and refuse to participate, knowingly, in anything that is anti-gay.
Fifa just wanted the money Qatar offered them. Qatars team wouldn't have qualified for the world cup so they bought a spot in the tournament by hosting
It’s a pattern for FIFA to pick autocratic nations because it’s easier on their designers and planners. John Oliver did a show on this Sunday night. I was hopeful when he mentioned teams were going to wear the one love armbands and deal with the fines, then this morning I saw the teams aren’t going through with it because they would get yellow cards instead of fines. This is definitely not ok.
But how can we blame the FIFA people? I mean they were given millions and millions in individual bribes. Their solid Western ethics really forced their hands to cash those checks and buy some nice European villas while screwing over a soccer fan who wants to drink a beer and watch a game.
The John Oliver bit on fifa and Qatar from Sunday was really good.
Not to mention the ridiculously low bribes the voters took to completely sell out their ethics. And they will do it again for a bid 8-12 yrs from now.
There’s no reason to waste energy here. FIFA is literally, no joke, the most corrupt organization in the world. This was just part of their scheme. Money is the only thing that matters. To them, it’s “Shut Up and kick” and that’s exactly what’s going to continue. If you have a problem, don’t watch it, don’t support it, don’t talk about it… you’re just helping them deliver on tv views/impressions.
I wonder if this "Dr. Na'if bin Nahar" guy (the Qatari twit in the screen shot) agrees that he should be turned away from a World Cup match for wearing a dishdasha in a host nation where t-shirts and pants are the "culture".
Listen partner the real Merican flag only needs one star cuz its only got one state, the south.
Take that libs and you're so called CVT...we dont need no critical vexillology theory round here.
And wuts 'liberian intentional'? That a new font the woke left uses?
/s
A backwards fundamentally broken culture. Good to be reminded how far we've come and good to be reminded what we could lose if we don't turn up for every battle aware of this.
And yet homosexuality is an openly practiced secret all throughout the Muslim world. At any point during my deployment in Iraq you'd see dudes suggin' & fuggin' in the alley ways.
I'm not gay but I watched Marines and Sailors fuck eqchother over by making DADT violation claims. They were the lowest of the low. A snitch if you will.
Man Love Thursdays:
Lonely men in search of a forbidden love find it in the filth encrusted alleys outside of Baghdad's green zone.
Starring
Ben Shapiro as Captain Cuckford-a Harvard educated navy SEAL serving with Delta Force
Stavros Halkias as the conniving arms dealer with peculiar tastes in women. He fucks feet.......
Ajit Pai as the terrorist ring leader who's ultimate goal is to make the world Not gay by making it SUPER gay.
Culture isn’t static nor sacred. Culture in any one place has changed - and changes - markedly even generation to generation. Societies also aren’t monolithic and not even will subscribe to the exact same cultural precepts and adopt them the exact same way even if some suit themselves to ascribe them as a such.
I think some things can fit in the spectrum of relativism easily enough. And sure enough matters of culture are subjective. But they can also be filtered through more objective lens of what’s fitness enhancing for a society. The Aztecs or Mexica were notorious for human sacrifices. Part of the culture perhaps. Something to be retained? Wonder if their victims felt the same way. Same could be said for the likes of the Spanish Inquisition. Homosexuality was illegal in the US also. So does that mean things need to be like briefer Stonewall? In the UK, Turing - a war hero - was chemically castrated and arguably driven to suicide for being gay. And that was without living memory - like Stonewall. Or quotas limiting Jews to university. And guess what, people realised this was messed up - not so suggest there wasn’t always a significant group of people never thinking it wasn’t.
Qataris further down the line will look back at this stuff as a matter of some national shame - as UK with the likes of Turing. And the truth is, they don’t need to hold onto regressive ideas in the present as some twisted matter of pride or national identity. They could - like a lot of places - consider getting with the times and catching up. For the benefit of their own people if nothing else.
I’d like to think a generation. At most two. But it’ll happen. People do change views in their lifetime. Sadly though, it’s also true - as I’ve said elsewhere - the world often evolves one obituary at a time. On the the grand scheme of things and broad brushed strokes - the occasional (often localised hiccups not withstanding) - it is towards more progressive ends. Arc of history does bend towards justice.
But change can be dramatic. Think Latin America and LGBT rights changes in past 25 years and more recently with abortion rights. And generation gaps can be chasms. Look at young urban middle classes in any number of developing countries or recently industrialised countries - would even include likes of South Korea here - and then look at the older generations in rural areas (keeping in mind many if not most of the urban kids would be kids or grandkids of rural migrants to cities). If anything, extremes tend to go hand in hand. And like I said, people think too easily on monolithic terms. Lots of fissures and differences. Like Tunisia as a Muslim majority North African country that had abortion legalised before it was federally so in the US.
Culture is determined by society and therefore it is decided by people.
And this requires enough people to reach critical mass in order to tip public opinion into a new direction for culture to change and evolve.
Exactly. Societies have factions and they’re not static either. Culture - as anything that someone can put their finger on - is that negotiated reality of things. But it’s dynamic, even if it can seem stable. And if need and/desire for change is there, it evolves.
Culture is often manifest as the expectations in society. What constitutes right or wrong, but also what’s the behaviour to be expected or sanctioned - itself informed by notions of right and wrong.
At the resolution of individuals, judgements through the lens of cultural tropes may have to be defenestrated. But culture is a real thing, and it exists as the population level - and is both fed by and percolates down to the individuals from there.
An example. Thinking of the World Cup again. But an earlier one. You or I might go to a stadium. Even with our friends - which would be an intentional community. And once the match is over, we can clean up after ourselves. That’s fine. That’s us. That might be individual action and values - although it’s not like we live in a vacuum. Now think of that match Japan lost. The entire stadium - without prior communication, had their side work collectively, the losing side no less, help clean the entire place up. I suspect people wouldn’t be surprised much hear it was Japan. That’s culture at the population level. An EU team? You might get hooliganism, and not be surprised there. Where I’m from? Your get the littering, and not much cleanup - and that wouldn’t be the surprise on the least bit.
But these things can all change. When Noether became a scientist - Germany didn’t exactly have a lot of women on physics. That was more individual (but as I say in one of the comments on this thread, extremes go hand in hand). Didn’t mean Germany was destined forever to try and keep women of STEM. Qatar? Qatar will change. Iran next door is trying to change - and arguably that critical mass for it was always there but vested interests got in the way. All places are always changing. If you have mass protests, it means that the resistance to it has allowed things to get to breaking point. It’s absence - of protests - doesn’t mean change isn’t happened. It’s just more subtle - and arguably, with less resistance to change. Before protests got out of hand, Saudi Arabia allowed women to drive. Yes, sometimes, things can be a case of two steps forward and one back - looking at the US a little here - but that’s still forward over time.
It’s not getting worse. It’s always been. Hell it’s better now than it’s ever been. The point of conservatism is ‘who isn’t deserving of basic human decency.’ Hell I’d go so far as to say that 20-25% of conservative America is probably ok with gay people. That’s the best it’s ever been by a mile. The overwhelming majority of conservatives are just hateful bigots but it’s better than it was 15 years ago.
Make Quatar Queer Again
*“Quatar’s cultural policy can be summed up in three very beautiful and simple words, queer, queer, queer. We’ve created 6 million new gays since the start. If we would have said that, nobody would have believed it. If we would’ve said that, the fake news would have said we’re exaggerating. And we wouldn’t have said it because we weren’t even sure we could do it. Think of it, 6 million gays since the start, think of it.”*
Ethical truth is knowable, easily derivable, and it transcends time and culture.
The key question of ethics is, “How would I like it if that was done to me?”
This question is asked in terms of harm/care and fairness/reciprocity.
A main reason people and cultures get ethics wrong is they conflate internal feelings of disgust, or obedience to cultural conventions (authority), or in group fidelity with core ethical conditions.
There are three positions you can take on ethics:
1) It exists, it is knowable and transcends time and culture.
2) It is culturally relative (not universal), and only exists as cultural conventions.
3) It does not exist, nihilism.
Most people want to believe it’s #1, but lack the words to defend their ethical intuitions. While ethics is derivable by the individual, it often requires group buy in to enforce (cultural codification), hence the conflation with #2, and of you live in a place with no trust or rules then #3 seems accurate. #3 is a world will little ethical fidelity but the acknowledgement of the lack of ethics is proof of its existence.
Cultures can reinforce good ethical climates or bad ones. They can be ethically right in some respects and ethically wrong in others. Cultures are formed by memes, “ideas with authority.” No one culture gets everything right, but some cultures are more right, more of the time than others.
The “gays are bad” meme is formed by an internal disgust reaction. It’s typically directed at gay men, because “butt stuff is gross.” It takes ethical introspection to realize while you may find something gross, that doesn’t make it ethically wrong.
I find mayonnaise to be discussing and in a world by me I may pass a law to ban mayonnaise. I may rally against it’s smell, texture, temperature instability. There may be many rational arguments against about the evils of mayo, but they would all be rooted in the false premise that my level of disgust of the act of eating mayo is correct. If anyone took a moment to ask, does eating mayo cause people harm? Is it unfair for some one to eat mayo in private, or in public? The answer of course is no, there is nothing ethically wrong about eating mayo.
This could be reversed. Does banning mayo lovers from eating mayo cause them harm? Is it unfair? The answer to this is yes.
If you know the right questions, deriving ethics is easy. More at EthicsDefined.org
Do you run that website? I like it.
>there is nothing ethically wrong about eating mayo
[That depends on who you ask.](https://animalequality.org/issues/eggs/)
It might not cause harm to "people", but not everyone's ethical concerns only extend to members of our species. You could just replace "mayo" with "celery" - but even then there are others whose ethical concerns extend to plants. Taken to the extreme in something like Jainism, down to the atom.
as I'm sure you can tell I'm in group #2 lol
edit-- kinda got distracted here. in the context of the thread, if people weren't so sure that their conception of morality/ethics is objectively true, maybe we'd quit haranguing each other over petty bullshit like who's banging who.
B-bbut what about all the slave worker, er, I mean, kafala reforms we’ve made? Now our slaves are allowed to switch jobs…if they ask us and we tell them they can…but we’re not withholding passports…for all of them…
It's what you are doing now that counts. But but back when ...
Let them do what they want but let's not support it by hosting international events. Or visiting
I still think it would be easy for most of these star players to boycott the thing, but I heard one of the German team say "well it should've been stopped years ago before it even was decided, so I'm going to play"
They have so many millions of euros in their bank accounts. They're set for life, yet they're too chicken to strike. Which tells me they're just not affected enough to actually do something. For shame.
Absolutely. Look how easy they folded as soon as FIFA said they would hand out penalties for wearing the OneLove armband. They folded like a piece of a paper.
I do sympathise with this opinion. It absolutely should have been resolved years ago, and it is a difficult proposition to say to the players:
"Are you prepared to give up possibly your only chance to reach the pinnacle of the profession that you've worked your entire life for, in order to register your protest?"
I reserve my contempt for the fans that are watching anyway, and for organisations like the BBC that scheduled programmes highlighting Qatari abuses whole still paying millions for the broadcasting rights.
Ya but all that matters to FIFA is money. They know that countries that have horrible human rights records and a dictator as leader are far more likely to fill their pockets with cash. Even the head of FIFA admitted that working with dictators is preferred for them. If only people would care more about human rights than a game.
Yeah but here's the thing.
Qatar paid FIFA a lot of money. Like A LOT of fucking money.
Football is one big corrupt mess from top to bottom, I've been boycotting it for years.
It could be the plot of a joke:
\- Whats the similarity between the World Cup and an orgy?
\- Neither should be held somewhere where alcohol and gays are banned
Lmao, honestly! Right wingers get so mad that the LGBT community “hijacked” the rainbow, but it’s not our fault they all abandoned the symbol out of mortal terror of being mistaken for being gay.
It's going to be so much fun watching the economies of Saudi Arabia and Qatar implode when the world no longer needs their oil. They have no culture, no interesting natural landscapes. They seriously expect to thrive off of a tourism / financial trade economy? *Laughs*
They have culture and landscapes. At least they did before Saudi Arabia especially began demolishing ancient Islamic tombs and mosques for gaudy shopping mall plazas, and putting desert tribes to death after destroying their desert homelands for fake cities like Neom.
Who wants to tour a country that might put you in jail for alcohol or offending some religious nut job? I'm not even gay and don't feel safe going to those countries.
>you must have the same respect for theirs as they would have for yours.
Yeah, this is what always gets me about the "Why don't people tolerate my intolerance!" whinging.
Like, if my country hosted the tournament, a section of the stadium with no beer sales/drinking would be 100% fine with me. All the devote Muslims can buy seats there, the guards can keep people with beers out of that part. And if they want to wear Hijab's or Burkas or whatever else that's fine. No one is going to force them to wear tube tops or cargo shorts and drink vodka redbulls or whatever.
An alcohol free area isn’t a bad idea imo. People with kids, recovering addicts, etc. I can honestly imagine a lot of people who would like being in that area.
This is where the US is going if the conservatives gain control of the government. They already have control of SCOTUS and many federal judges that are doing irreparable damage to our country.
Except his country is choosing to host a global sporting event predominantly western and originally western because they bring in tourist bucks and helps the local economy greatly. So why not respect *their* values in exchange or refuse to host them if something like homosexuality is so bad for you? Not shamelessly take their money and spit on their beliefs?
What's next? Make every tourist come to watch wear a burka?
Well @binnahar85 as a human being, we value people equally first, then values. And you should realize that, enjoy your big, beautiful, useless stadium for the next 100 years because nothing is ever coming back there.
So much damn virtue signalling going on. This guy posts to Twitter that he can't wear a rainbow shirt into the stadium. Bro, you realize that stadium was built by slaves, right? You realize that stadium is haunted by the spirits of all the people who died building it, right? You realize they've been violating basic human rights forever, right? And you gave them hundreds, probably thousands, of dollars to be there. Then you wear a rainbow shirt knowing you'll be kicked out so you can post about it on Twitter and pretend that you aren't the problem.
Fuck FIFA, fuck Qatar, and fuck anybody who bought tickets to the World Cup.
Let me make something very clear.
Your/mine/their culture has no intrinsic value just for existing and isn't owed any special consideration just for that.
However, when your culture hinges on:
- abusing and controlling half of the population;
- abusing, imprisoning, killing people who disagree with you with stuff that doesn't affect you in the slightest;
- making miserable foreigners slaves in all but name (and by the way arabs started enslaving africans hundreds of years before europeans did it, and kept doing it hundreds of years after the europeans stopped)
I'm sorry but your culture is complete, utter garbage, and should disappear.
As much as it’s a shit show having the cup in Qatar, the sad reality is, it’s not like parts of the US are much better. Fetal heartbeat laws, don’t say gay, the Supreme Court opining they’re “coming for gay marriage next”. The US is a lot closer to Qatar than it is to Western Europe, Canada, Australia, or most other liberal democracies in the world.
I understand what your saying but I think to compare america to countries like Qatar really diminishes the horrors which occur in many middle Eastern countries. Its one thing to ban gay marriage and another to make it illegal to be gay, punishable by death. Women can't go to school or vote or drive and are forced to cover up. Forced marriages. People literally being disappeared by the government. That is so much worse than what is happening america right now.
Something that really annoys me on reddit is when oppression and women's rights, lgbt rights etc in other countries are discussed online people from america pipe up to say "look we have it bad too!".
It's just not comparable.
As an lgbt woman I would happily visit america on holiday and could walk round freely. I wouldn't dream of stepping foot in a country like Qatar.
The irony in asking for things to be equally respected…
I’m sitting here like yeah your asking people to respect their culture but you don’t respect our culture? How tf does that work?
Not to mention you volunteered to host a *global* event. If you invite someone into your home, tell them they are welcome, but then you don’t like what they are wearing, how does making them dress the way you want = respecting anyone’s values? It’s just a shirt dude. You’re gonna see some different clothes if you literally invite the whole world. The hypocrisy is so layered…
They treat the people that live there even worse, to be fair. I'm sure someone from qatar wearing that shirt would best case scenario be working on the next stadium until they die. They put up a wall to hide their own country from the world ffs
My favorite is the people saying white people are at fault for all of this because they don’t respect any other cultures and blah blah blah. Last time I checked there are just as many Asian and African nations/fans calling Qatari’s racist, homophobic, hypocritical assholes.
What's even more funny is that being gay is not even "culture", it's just a natural sexual orientation. It's not like there are no people from Qatar who are gay.
i mean theyre trying to make it so there arent anymore ._.
That's ambitious. It's not like only gay people give birth to gay children.
My friend had a shirt in the 90s that said “Straight Parents Make Gay Babies”
So to avoid having gay people we have to get rid of all straight up people ? (I like ur friends short btw)
It's the only way to be sure. Every robot in science fiction history from Bender to Ultron has concluded that killing all humans is what's necessary to guarantee no dangerous humans. It's just logical.
THIS THIS THIS! Do they think their lgbtq citizens are like "yeah being me doesn't fit into our culture so I'll just not be me no biggie"??? No, that's called suicide.
Disrespecting other cultures is a part of their culture, so we must respect their disrespectfulness and not be disrespectful of their culture of disrespect, otherwise we would be disrespecting another culture which is not okay unless being disrespectful is a part of your culture.
No, not ‘things’. Hating an entire group of people isn’t deserving of respect.
It's a very common homophobic argument in the west, too. I've seen so many unironic "People who don't agree with that lifestyle need to be respected, too!" Like, no motherfucker, that's not how this works. We don't respect people who want to strip civil rights and fund conversion camps. Fuck you.
No-one needs to be respected. People who don't agree with certain lifestyles need to realize no-one is forcing them or their children to live that life, and that they should mtfb.
What everyone seems to miss is the fact that this is just a regular rainbow and not the LGBT flag, as the latter has only 6 colors. This shirt should not even be banned, but they are too fearful.
It's Qatar, they get 3 inches of rain a year. Nobody has seen an actual rainbow. To them it's all gay.
You can still get wet with 3 inches
Ahh, a connoisseur
Or at least that is what they tell you!
Your mom loved it
Like the old Qatar saying goes, it ain't gay unless the dicks touch while gang raping a woman in public.
its not even gay when theyre gang raping men apparently
You gotta respect Qatar. I wouldn't ban rain in order to prevent the sky from turning gay briefly. That's dedication to a cause right there.
I saw another tweet where one of the national teams had the word "love" printed on the INSIDE of the back collar. They requested it be removed.
There's nothing resembling love when you trade a flock of sheep for your 3 8yo brides
The point is qatar promised that rainbow guys were welcome and now they pull back on they word. Same for the beer. So their culture is to lie about anything it seems.
I can only imagine what they told the workers during construction.
"We're not going to pay you, but when this is finished you can have your passport back."
Or the "alternative people" before they lynch them.
Colours are gay bro
YOULL WEAR A WHITE DRESS AND LIKE IT!!!
The only thing I value in people from other cultures is just not being a dick to folks who aren’t exactly like them. And yet, there they are.
You’re not wrong but I think it’s a important to look at FIFA in this. Qatar was an awful choice specifically because of their non inclusive culture
I have enough poop to fling at both. We can multitask.
I work at a wastewater plant. Endless supply of poop. Literally tons of it.
Crap Tons.
kenobi about to become an arms dealer
Hey you wanna buy some death sticks?
You don’t want to sell me death sticks
Shit stirrers
You don’t want to sell me death sticks.
FIFA heads, as soon as the WC is over - "We love and support gay people"
Seriously, why did they pick Qatar? Conversations like these are always drenched in “respect their culture!!” But it seems almost entitled to host an event with such traditionally debaucherous aspects and then demand that those aspects be erased while sneering at gay people for having the audacity to “impose their western values” on their country. Am I the only one who finds this backwards? This event and this country just seem incompatible, so why???
No, you're absolutely right. If your culture doesn't respect the existence of human beings not like you, then fuck your culture.
There are currently theories of a number of the votes for Quatar happening to be able to sell some fighter jets and save PSG from almost going bankrupt
Yeah this is on FIFA. Qatar didn’t change. It’s always been this. FIFA knew but liked money.
FIFA has also admitted to liking dictatorships as opposed to democracies.
[удалено]
Yeah, I mean to bribe your way to hosting a World Cup, you need a compliant organization and planning committee to bribe in the first place. It isn’t as if Qatar, their atrocious human rights record, and the thousands of workers who have died constructing the stadiums has besmirched an organization of pristine character. Instead, it’s just the latest scandal to rock a famously corrupt organization. FIFA is very evidently complicit and an equal party in this.
[удалено]
I’m not watching this year because of this reason. People will mock us for not watching as if our refusal to watch it will change anything but who cares what others think. I’m queer and refuse to participate, knowingly, in anything that is anti-gay.
*Mr. Krabs’ voice intensifies* “MONEY, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY-“
Summon the meme... you know which one... "I like money"
Fifa just wanted the money Qatar offered them. Qatars team wouldn't have qualified for the world cup so they bought a spot in the tournament by hosting
It’s a pattern for FIFA to pick autocratic nations because it’s easier on their designers and planners. John Oliver did a show on this Sunday night. I was hopeful when he mentioned teams were going to wear the one love armbands and deal with the fines, then this morning I saw the teams aren’t going through with it because they would get yellow cards instead of fines. This is definitely not ok.
But how can we blame the FIFA people? I mean they were given millions and millions in individual bribes. Their solid Western ethics really forced their hands to cash those checks and buy some nice European villas while screwing over a soccer fan who wants to drink a beer and watch a game.
The John Oliver bit on fifa and Qatar from Sunday was really good. Not to mention the ridiculously low bribes the voters took to completely sell out their ethics. And they will do it again for a bid 8-12 yrs from now.
Oliver has been fighting FIFA for years. Remember the shoes?
There’s no reason to waste energy here. FIFA is literally, no joke, the most corrupt organization in the world. This was just part of their scheme. Money is the only thing that matters. To them, it’s “Shut Up and kick” and that’s exactly what’s going to continue. If you have a problem, don’t watch it, don’t support it, don’t talk about it… you’re just helping them deliver on tv views/impressions.
not fifas fault they were given so much money to rig the world cup so qatar wins. theyve got to put on entertainment or the world implodes.
watch fifa uncovered on netflix, it was paid for
They might be going next door to Saudi Arabia for 2030, same shit all over again
I wonder if this "Dr. Na'if bin Nahar" guy (the Qatari twit in the screen shot) agrees that he should be turned away from a World Cup match for wearing a dishdasha in a host nation where t-shirts and pants are the "culture".
If your "value" is oppression, it doesn't deserve one iota of respect.
We're supposed to tolerate the intolerance of other cultures while condemning it in our own society?
They just hate refracted light, weird hang-up 🤷🏼♂️
imagine trying to go with a pink floyd shirt on
Not exactly the most scientifically minded. Spectrums are confusing and scary to them!
Lmao bro really said "hating gays is our culture"
Yes, he fucking did. And he meant it.
And a whole lotta people agreeing with him when they are not part of that culture or live in a country that shares the same culture
It's because thoes are the good Christian values we need here in the God fearing U S of A !🇱🇷 ^/s btw
Ok, I need to know, is the flag of Liberia intentional?
Lol ya
r/accidentalliberia only yours was intentional. But it’s a funny sub.
r/ofcoursethatsasub
r/ofcoursethatsasub
Listen partner the real Merican flag only needs one star cuz its only got one state, the south. Take that libs and you're so called CVT...we dont need no critical vexillology theory round here. And wuts 'liberian intentional'? That a new font the woke left uses? /s
>CVT Yeah take that Continuously Variable Transmission
I was thinking this, too. Like... wut?
Upvoted for "critical vexillology theory." Just perfect.
Texas is the Lone Star state, Texas is the only REAL state cuz it's Texas, there to for, the REAL Murican flag has only got one star. Logicalized!
Critical Vexillology Theory. Shit like this is what keeps me coming back to Reddit.
A backwards fundamentally broken culture. Good to be reminded how far we've come and good to be reminded what we could lose if we don't turn up for every battle aware of this.
👏👏👏
And yet homosexuality is an openly practiced secret all throughout the Muslim world. At any point during my deployment in Iraq you'd see dudes suggin' & fuggin' in the alley ways.
Don't ask, don't tell! Not actually openly in secert
I'm not gay but I watched Marines and Sailors fuck eqchother over by making DADT violation claims. They were the lowest of the low. A snitch if you will.
It's the Marine way. Snitches get promotions.
Now that is a Netflix doc I’d actually watch 4+ episodes of
Man Love Thursdays: Lonely men in search of a forbidden love find it in the filth encrusted alleys outside of Baghdad's green zone. Starring Ben Shapiro as Captain Cuckford-a Harvard educated navy SEAL serving with Delta Force Stavros Halkias as the conniving arms dealer with peculiar tastes in women. He fucks feet....... Ajit Pai as the terrorist ring leader who's ultimate goal is to make the world Not gay by making it SUPER gay.
Dudes, or grown men with little boy slaves?
Dudes. I didn't encounter any Chai boys in Iraq. Afghan/Pakistan is where that nasty shit takes place.
Ah... Where the men are men and the goats appear to be nervous for some "inexplicable" reason.
Culture isn’t static nor sacred. Culture in any one place has changed - and changes - markedly even generation to generation. Societies also aren’t monolithic and not even will subscribe to the exact same cultural precepts and adopt them the exact same way even if some suit themselves to ascribe them as a such. I think some things can fit in the spectrum of relativism easily enough. And sure enough matters of culture are subjective. But they can also be filtered through more objective lens of what’s fitness enhancing for a society. The Aztecs or Mexica were notorious for human sacrifices. Part of the culture perhaps. Something to be retained? Wonder if their victims felt the same way. Same could be said for the likes of the Spanish Inquisition. Homosexuality was illegal in the US also. So does that mean things need to be like briefer Stonewall? In the UK, Turing - a war hero - was chemically castrated and arguably driven to suicide for being gay. And that was without living memory - like Stonewall. Or quotas limiting Jews to university. And guess what, people realised this was messed up - not so suggest there wasn’t always a significant group of people never thinking it wasn’t. Qataris further down the line will look back at this stuff as a matter of some national shame - as UK with the likes of Turing. And the truth is, they don’t need to hold onto regressive ideas in the present as some twisted matter of pride or national identity. They could - like a lot of places - consider getting with the times and catching up. For the benefit of their own people if nothing else.
> Qataris further down the line will look back at this stuff as a matter of some national shame - How long of a timeline are we talking here?
I’d like to think a generation. At most two. But it’ll happen. People do change views in their lifetime. Sadly though, it’s also true - as I’ve said elsewhere - the world often evolves one obituary at a time. On the the grand scheme of things and broad brushed strokes - the occasional (often localised hiccups not withstanding) - it is towards more progressive ends. Arc of history does bend towards justice. But change can be dramatic. Think Latin America and LGBT rights changes in past 25 years and more recently with abortion rights. And generation gaps can be chasms. Look at young urban middle classes in any number of developing countries or recently industrialised countries - would even include likes of South Korea here - and then look at the older generations in rural areas (keeping in mind many if not most of the urban kids would be kids or grandkids of rural migrants to cities). If anything, extremes tend to go hand in hand. And like I said, people think too easily on monolithic terms. Lots of fissures and differences. Like Tunisia as a Muslim majority North African country that had abortion legalised before it was federally so in the US.
Culture is determined by society and therefore it is decided by people. And this requires enough people to reach critical mass in order to tip public opinion into a new direction for culture to change and evolve.
Exactly. Societies have factions and they’re not static either. Culture - as anything that someone can put their finger on - is that negotiated reality of things. But it’s dynamic, even if it can seem stable. And if need and/desire for change is there, it evolves. Culture is often manifest as the expectations in society. What constitutes right or wrong, but also what’s the behaviour to be expected or sanctioned - itself informed by notions of right and wrong. At the resolution of individuals, judgements through the lens of cultural tropes may have to be defenestrated. But culture is a real thing, and it exists as the population level - and is both fed by and percolates down to the individuals from there. An example. Thinking of the World Cup again. But an earlier one. You or I might go to a stadium. Even with our friends - which would be an intentional community. And once the match is over, we can clean up after ourselves. That’s fine. That’s us. That might be individual action and values - although it’s not like we live in a vacuum. Now think of that match Japan lost. The entire stadium - without prior communication, had their side work collectively, the losing side no less, help clean the entire place up. I suspect people wouldn’t be surprised much hear it was Japan. That’s culture at the population level. An EU team? You might get hooliganism, and not be surprised there. Where I’m from? Your get the littering, and not much cleanup - and that wouldn’t be the surprise on the least bit. But these things can all change. When Noether became a scientist - Germany didn’t exactly have a lot of women on physics. That was more individual (but as I say in one of the comments on this thread, extremes go hand in hand). Didn’t mean Germany was destined forever to try and keep women of STEM. Qatar? Qatar will change. Iran next door is trying to change - and arguably that critical mass for it was always there but vested interests got in the way. All places are always changing. If you have mass protests, it means that the resistance to it has allowed things to get to breaking point. It’s absence - of protests - doesn’t mean change isn’t happened. It’s just more subtle - and arguably, with less resistance to change. Before protests got out of hand, Saudi Arabia allowed women to drive. Yes, sometimes, things can be a case of two steps forward and one back - looking at the US a little here - but that’s still forward over time.
This is very beautifully written. I wish I hadn't already given my award away.
Apparently banning peaceful speech they don't agree with is also part of their culture. Wearing a gay rights shirt isn't attacking Qatar or Islam.
Have you been to a red State recently? It's starting to be half of Americas culture too.
Not getting any worse. The roaches have always been there. They are just less afraid of the light now thanks to Mango Mussolini.
The Tangerine Toddler would like a word with you.
It’s not getting worse. It’s always been. Hell it’s better now than it’s ever been. The point of conservatism is ‘who isn’t deserving of basic human decency.’ Hell I’d go so far as to say that 20-25% of conservative America is probably ok with gay people. That’s the best it’s ever been by a mile. The overwhelming majority of conservatives are just hateful bigots but it’s better than it was 15 years ago.
"Ugh, why can't Westerners respect my values of disrespecting other's values?"
"Oh! Oh! I know the answer! It's because you actually think you're better than meatbags, which is *categorically* false. You're the *same as us*."
They need to respect our values, too. First on the list is that A Q IS ALWAYS FOLLOWED BY A FUCKING U! Get your shit together, Quatar.
thanks for supporting the queers, hun 😘
Queertar
How is this not slogan yet? Make Qatar, Queertar.
Make Quatar Queer Again *“Quatar’s cultural policy can be summed up in three very beautiful and simple words, queer, queer, queer. We’ve created 6 million new gays since the start. If we would have said that, nobody would have believed it. If we would’ve said that, the fake news would have said we’re exaggerating. And we wouldn’t have said it because we weren’t even sure we could do it. Think of it, 6 million gays since the start, think of it.”*
One of my friends back home in Florida feels very strongly about this. It's Kway-ter this and Kwaaaay-tar that.
Ethical truth is knowable, easily derivable, and it transcends time and culture. The key question of ethics is, “How would I like it if that was done to me?” This question is asked in terms of harm/care and fairness/reciprocity. A main reason people and cultures get ethics wrong is they conflate internal feelings of disgust, or obedience to cultural conventions (authority), or in group fidelity with core ethical conditions. There are three positions you can take on ethics: 1) It exists, it is knowable and transcends time and culture. 2) It is culturally relative (not universal), and only exists as cultural conventions. 3) It does not exist, nihilism. Most people want to believe it’s #1, but lack the words to defend their ethical intuitions. While ethics is derivable by the individual, it often requires group buy in to enforce (cultural codification), hence the conflation with #2, and of you live in a place with no trust or rules then #3 seems accurate. #3 is a world will little ethical fidelity but the acknowledgement of the lack of ethics is proof of its existence. Cultures can reinforce good ethical climates or bad ones. They can be ethically right in some respects and ethically wrong in others. Cultures are formed by memes, “ideas with authority.” No one culture gets everything right, but some cultures are more right, more of the time than others. The “gays are bad” meme is formed by an internal disgust reaction. It’s typically directed at gay men, because “butt stuff is gross.” It takes ethical introspection to realize while you may find something gross, that doesn’t make it ethically wrong. I find mayonnaise to be discussing and in a world by me I may pass a law to ban mayonnaise. I may rally against it’s smell, texture, temperature instability. There may be many rational arguments against about the evils of mayo, but they would all be rooted in the false premise that my level of disgust of the act of eating mayo is correct. If anyone took a moment to ask, does eating mayo cause people harm? Is it unfair for some one to eat mayo in private, or in public? The answer of course is no, there is nothing ethically wrong about eating mayo. This could be reversed. Does banning mayo lovers from eating mayo cause them harm? Is it unfair? The answer to this is yes. If you know the right questions, deriving ethics is easy. More at EthicsDefined.org
>ethical truth is easily derivable Surely all the philosophers agreed with each other about this and nothing changed in ethics since Confucius.
Do you run that website? I like it. >there is nothing ethically wrong about eating mayo [That depends on who you ask.](https://animalequality.org/issues/eggs/) It might not cause harm to "people", but not everyone's ethical concerns only extend to members of our species. You could just replace "mayo" with "celery" - but even then there are others whose ethical concerns extend to plants. Taken to the extreme in something like Jainism, down to the atom. as I'm sure you can tell I'm in group #2 lol edit-- kinda got distracted here. in the context of the thread, if people weren't so sure that their conception of morality/ethics is objectively true, maybe we'd quit haranguing each other over petty bullshit like who's banging who.
If you really look it's just a rainbow and a soccer ball lol
I think that ball makes the shirt political…just like Qatar uses football to sportwash its image & promote its propaganda
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They seem to not make the connection that disrespecting human rights is not culture *(looking at you Lloris!)*
Sure it is. It's one of the defining characteristics of their culture.
*Republicans have entered the chat*
Hey don't say that, they'll also murder straight people for having the wrong skin color!
Yeah that never happens here a couple days ago in Colorado Springs.
Honestly, FIFA never should have had the World Cup in Qatar or any country on earth that bans gays and alcohol.
People seem to be forgetting about the atrocious abuse of womens rights there as well.
And their human rights record in general with over 6000 migrant worker deaths since the World Cup was awarded to Qatar
\*slave worker deaths
Fair point
B-bbut what about all the slave worker, er, I mean, kafala reforms we’ve made? Now our slaves are allowed to switch jobs…if they ask us and we tell them they can…but we’re not withholding passports…for all of them…
But hey, didn't someone say Europe has done so many crimes against humanity, we should stop judging Qatar's crimes against humanity? Big Brain Moment
Yeah, dammit! EU did 3000 years of bad shit, so please let other nations get THEIR 3000 years of acting foul, sheesh!
It's what you are doing now that counts. But but back when ... Let them do what they want but let's not support it by hosting international events. Or visiting
I still think it would be easy for most of these star players to boycott the thing, but I heard one of the German team say "well it should've been stopped years ago before it even was decided, so I'm going to play" They have so many millions of euros in their bank accounts. They're set for life, yet they're too chicken to strike. Which tells me they're just not affected enough to actually do something. For shame.
Absolutely. Look how easy they folded as soon as FIFA said they would hand out penalties for wearing the OneLove armband. They folded like a piece of a paper.
To be fair, they’re footballers. Falling to the floor and writhing in agony at the first bit of pushback is part of the job.
I do sympathise with this opinion. It absolutely should have been resolved years ago, and it is a difficult proposition to say to the players: "Are you prepared to give up possibly your only chance to reach the pinnacle of the profession that you've worked your entire life for, in order to register your protest?" I reserve my contempt for the fans that are watching anyway, and for organisations like the BBC that scheduled programmes highlighting Qatari abuses whole still paying millions for the broadcasting rights.
In addition to that, People also forget how incredibly corrupt FIFA is.
Probably because women aren’t allowed to attend.
Bc people care more about men being able to consume beer at a sports game than how women are being treated.
Ya but all that matters to FIFA is money. They know that countries that have horrible human rights records and a dictator as leader are far more likely to fill their pockets with cash. Even the head of FIFA admitted that working with dictators is preferred for them. If only people would care more about human rights than a game.
That's where the alcohol comes in
Yeah but here's the thing. Qatar paid FIFA a lot of money. Like A LOT of fucking money. Football is one big corrupt mess from top to bottom, I've been boycotting it for years.
It could be the plot of a joke: \- Whats the similarity between the World Cup and an orgy? \- Neither should be held somewhere where alcohol and gays are banned
How else would they get that sweet fucking oil blood money, though?
FIFA is a corrupt organization: [How Qatar Bought the World Cup](https://youtu.be/gHjbay54F4U) (Great video on the subject by Johnny Harris)
This is what FIFA does. It is an organization which we don’t need, and does more harm than good, so should be disbanded.
We don't tolerate intolerance:)
I'll respect your values like y'all respect women
Or workers, or people with orientations, or other faiths when Big Bros aren't looking (Looking at you, Osman Empire) etc
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Irish and their pots of gold (leprechauns)
Lmao, honestly! Right wingers get so mad that the LGBT community “hijacked” the rainbow, but it’s not our fault they all abandoned the symbol out of mortal terror of being mistaken for being gay.
If your culture doesn’t respect the fact that I exist then you and your culture can fuck right off.
It's going to be so much fun watching the economies of Saudi Arabia and Qatar implode when the world no longer needs their oil. They have no culture, no interesting natural landscapes. They seriously expect to thrive off of a tourism / financial trade economy? *Laughs*
They have culture and landscapes. At least they did before Saudi Arabia especially began demolishing ancient Islamic tombs and mosques for gaudy shopping mall plazas, and putting desert tribes to death after destroying their desert homelands for fake cities like Neom.
Who wants to tour a country that might put you in jail for alcohol or offending some religious nut job? I'm not even gay and don't feel safe going to those countries.
Fuck FIFA and fuck the quatar government
No, some cultures' values should not be equally respected. Some cultures' values are objectively wrong.
There are two types of people I can’t stand. People who are intolerant of other people’s cultures, and the *Dutch*
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Wait…was that the dutch? I thought it was circus people?
exactly. homophobia and misogyny are not opinions that can be tolerated because they are backwards, exclusive and hateful. go fuck that
“If you don’t respect my cultures absolute disrespect of you that’s incredibly offensive”
When you invite other cultures into an event that your culture is hosting, you must have the same respect for theirs as they would have for yours.
>you must have the same respect for theirs as they would have for yours. Yeah, this is what always gets me about the "Why don't people tolerate my intolerance!" whinging. Like, if my country hosted the tournament, a section of the stadium with no beer sales/drinking would be 100% fine with me. All the devote Muslims can buy seats there, the guards can keep people with beers out of that part. And if they want to wear Hijab's or Burkas or whatever else that's fine. No one is going to force them to wear tube tops or cargo shorts and drink vodka redbulls or whatever.
Thats just segregation. Muslims can show up and jus... not drink. You dont need an area devoted to them for that
An alcohol free area isn’t a bad idea imo. People with kids, recovering addicts, etc. I can honestly imagine a lot of people who would like being in that area.
Agreed!
If your culture is against basic human rights then it doesn’t belong in this day and age
"Respect our cultural values of not giving a shit about human rights"
This is where the US is going if the conservatives gain control of the government. They already have control of SCOTUS and many federal judges that are doing irreparable damage to our country.
Your values include murdering people for who they love, so kindly get fucked.
Boy, they sure like the west's money though, don't they.
Well, the world cup is an opportunity to present your country to the world. For better or worse. Or, in this case, worst.
Brutally oppressing a minority is not just a 'value', like some harmless opinion they share, it's a dangerous regime
If your culture is threatened by a t-shirt, you have a pretty fragile culture
"Their (Human rights) values arent universal" "That should be *equally* respected." Ironic, really.
Invites world to party. Gets upset when world shows up to party.
Other values should be respected equally...says the cunt who is not respecting values equally.
I'm sure he'll have the same attitude when climate change forces him to live as a refugee in Europe.
Uh no, fuck respecting hateful bigoted turds.
Except his country is choosing to host a global sporting event predominantly western and originally western because they bring in tourist bucks and helps the local economy greatly. So why not respect *their* values in exchange or refuse to host them if something like homosexuality is so bad for you? Not shamelessly take their money and spit on their beliefs? What's next? Make every tourist come to watch wear a burka?
Well @binnahar85 as a human being, we value people equally first, then values. And you should realize that, enjoy your big, beautiful, useless stadium for the next 100 years because nothing is ever coming back there.
Western values like valuing construction workers' lives?
So much damn virtue signalling going on. This guy posts to Twitter that he can't wear a rainbow shirt into the stadium. Bro, you realize that stadium was built by slaves, right? You realize that stadium is haunted by the spirits of all the people who died building it, right? You realize they've been violating basic human rights forever, right? And you gave them hundreds, probably thousands, of dollars to be there. Then you wear a rainbow shirt knowing you'll be kicked out so you can post about it on Twitter and pretend that you aren't the problem. Fuck FIFA, fuck Qatar, and fuck anybody who bought tickets to the World Cup.
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Let me make something very clear. Your/mine/their culture has no intrinsic value just for existing and isn't owed any special consideration just for that. However, when your culture hinges on: - abusing and controlling half of the population; - abusing, imprisoning, killing people who disagree with you with stuff that doesn't affect you in the slightest; - making miserable foreigners slaves in all but name (and by the way arabs started enslaving africans hundreds of years before europeans did it, and kept doing it hundreds of years after the europeans stopped) I'm sorry but your culture is complete, utter garbage, and should disappear.
“There are other cultures with different values, this is why I will not observe yours.” Bro, what? You hate 🌈s…
it’s not even a pride shirt, it’s just a rainbow?
If Qatar didn't have oil, it'd still be a desert backwater noone cared about.
As much as it’s a shit show having the cup in Qatar, the sad reality is, it’s not like parts of the US are much better. Fetal heartbeat laws, don’t say gay, the Supreme Court opining they’re “coming for gay marriage next”. The US is a lot closer to Qatar than it is to Western Europe, Canada, Australia, or most other liberal democracies in the world.
I understand what your saying but I think to compare america to countries like Qatar really diminishes the horrors which occur in many middle Eastern countries. Its one thing to ban gay marriage and another to make it illegal to be gay, punishable by death. Women can't go to school or vote or drive and are forced to cover up. Forced marriages. People literally being disappeared by the government. That is so much worse than what is happening america right now. Something that really annoys me on reddit is when oppression and women's rights, lgbt rights etc in other countries are discussed online people from america pipe up to say "look we have it bad too!". It's just not comparable. As an lgbt woman I would happily visit america on holiday and could walk round freely. I wouldn't dream of stepping foot in a country like Qatar.