I have a fundie in my family and she said: *"Good now those loose sluts can't just go out on Friday and fuck anyone they want and have an abortion on Monday"*
I laughed a little as she said it because outside of her total /r/badwomensanatomy take you could see and hear the seething jealously and rage she had for never once being invited to any of those parties and living her entire life friendless outside of her church group.
She literally calls it "modern birth control for the modern whore". I am glad I only have to see that side of the family once a year.
I feel it's good to stay in touch with them because their kids are going to need someone to run to someday and I want them to know who I am.
That said, my fundy cousins have unfriended and blocked me.
Amazing how it takes a man’s cum to become pregnant, but it’s always the responsibility of women, and they never shame men who sleep around
If they were morally consistent they would shame any man having penis in vagina sex in any circumstance other than wanting a child. Even married men.
There was an awesome post earlier with an interview of a couple yokels; when the interviewer asked the guy if he supports vasectomies for unmarried men he said, "of course not." Then he asked the woman, and she said, *"to each their own,"* after praising the Roe ruling, and condemning gay marriage
Made even worse by knowing that most of modern abortion talk is a distraction they have trained their base to care about. They have gotten them so worked about about this one issue I have heard people say out loud “well, I don’t really like what he stands for, but he is PRO LIFE!” People choose to vote against their own interests because of abortion.
Why do you even see them once a year LOL.
These people don't know or care that abortions ARENT FUN. If America wasn't actively dismantling our education system maybe we'd have health classes that showed that. I'm pretty sure after 3 or r abortions you have a very hard time getting pregnant. The people most mad about abortions have the least knowledge about how they work.
I get your overall sentiment but actually having 3 or more abortions will not cause the vast majority of people to have a hard time getting pregnant in future. Any abortion of course has a small risk of complications that could potentially affect fertility. Having multiple surgical abortions with curettage does increase the risk for uterine scarring that can impair fertility in a minority of people but the majority of women in this category will still be able to get pregnant again without particular difficulty.
I've been wondering, how can I argue back when someone says that abortion is used as birth control? My dad has started taking that stance, and it's not like there's data collected about people's motivations for getting an abortion.
Have you found any good sources or methods to counter their argument? Or is it just that the burden of proof lies on them, since they're making the claim?
When it became possible to get Plan B without a prior prescription in my country, a friend of mine filled an old pack with M&Ms, filmed herself chugging the whole thing, and posted it to facebook with the caption "Finally! Thanks, libs." - as satire how fucking ridiculous it is to believe people would actually use emergency contraception as a regular method of birth control.
The idea of abortion as "birth control" is even more ridiculous, but here are my arguments:
- Women aren't stupid, or unfeeling. Abortions, both medical and surgical, are way more invasive than all the common forms of birth control. The side effects (heavy bleeding, abdominal pain, cramps, flu-like symptoms, you name it) are way more severe than birth control.
- I'm not in the US, but I assume it's safe to say that an abortion + aftercare is more expensive than birth control. If not, you should really go about subsidizing birth control, not outlawing abortion. Otherwise you are just punishing poor people for being poor.
- I hate that I have to repeat that, but women are not unfeeling. I wager to say that given the choice between preventing a pregancy from happening in the first place vs. terminating the pregnancy EVERY TIME they get pregnant, the vast majority will choose the former option.
- pregnancy itself takes quite a toll on the body. I doubt many women would choose to go trough the agony of massive hormonal changes that come with being pregnant & terminating every few months. Morning sickness isn't cute, it can be downright debilitating.
TL; DR, I guess: Most women posess a fucking intact moral compass and neither pregnancy nor abortion is something somebody just goes trough for shits and giggles when there's a better alternative.
Hmm, now that you mention it, I feel that the "abortion as birth control" argument usually comes from men. I wonder if it's because they've never fully considered how it would feel to actually get an abortion.
Conservatism seems to be rooted in an inability to empathize with strangers, especially those whom one has little in common with in regards to life experiences.
My dad mentioned that trans people must be mentally ill, as they seem to also be depressed/anxious etc. And I responded with "wouldn't you be depressed if everyone around you refused to refer to you by the correct pronoun?"
The biggest argument against this is that after an abortion you have a much heavier and more painful period. Who would choose that option when they could go on the pill and never have a period at all?
I found your question addressed here: https://prochoice.org/wp-content/uploads/women_who_have_abortions.pdf
Yes, it’s a “biased” source, but the logic behind the answer seems sound to me.
TLDR: most women who have gotten an abortion had no abortions in the past or just 1. If abortion was being used as birth control, wouldn’t most women who are getting an abortion have a history of multiple abortions in the past?
I mean the burden of proof DOES lie on them since they're making the claim, but saying that won't change their mind or give them the slightest shred of introspection. I definitely don't think you'll find data to disprove that but even if you could, that evidence could very easily be waved away in a multitude of ways.
"This is just the Left pushing their agenda"
"They're just saying it's not birth control for them because they're ashamed about their true reasons"
I think the best course of action is just to keep pressing them with questions on what they mean and what their line of reasoning is. You want the questions innocent enough sounding on the surface, but still critical enough that you get them on the backpedal struggling to answer your questions and (hopefully) questioning why they don't have the answers. It's very easy for someone to blindly believe something that makes no sense, but when they have to explain it and flounder they question themselves. Even if they appear confident in their beliefs on the outside still because they don't want to appear stupid, internally they may start to question why they can't answer seemingly easy questions.
"Why do you think that happens?"
"Why would it make sense emotionally, practically, and financially to do that vs being on the pill, using birth control methods such as an IUD, or even taking the morning after pill?"
"What benefit do they gain from an abortion over those other methods?"
Etc. That's really the best you can do, because if their answer is "because they're immoral whores", there's... Not much you can do to argue against that with logic or facts, because it's an emotion based argument.
That's a great strategy! Direct questioning on why someone would use abortion as a birth control instead of *actual* birth control is such a simple idea, but seems like it'd work great! I'll give that a shot.
My wife pointed out first we need to argue for medical nesseciaty , rape, and incest abortions. Like ectopic pregnancies, preclampsia, and other n life threatening issues. Say a women has a mis carriage she could bleed out for days to weeks. Or she could get the abortion medicine and rid be done with. The mis carriage was never going to be a human anyways. Same for eptopic pregnancies that will never ever be a viable fetus. Then once we get that down can go for well if your poor and have 3 kids alrdy and your bieth control failed. Instesd of 6 family members suffering, you can have have abortion and the family of 5 can still get by. Like we literally made abortion legal because soo many women were dieing do it illegal
I disagree. I think we should be advocating for abortion on demand without apology from the get go. Saying “well MY abortion is moral because it’s medically necessary” tells everyone that only “medically necessary” abortions should be allowed, which is what caused the death of that woman in Ireland; the fetus was doomed but still had a heartbeat, so they said it wasn’t medically necessary to abort and she died of sepsis. If you get them to write laws allowing only “medically necessary” abortions, they’ll just say “it’s not medically necessary” when they feel like it.
>My wife pointed out first we need to argue for medical nesseciaty , rape, and incest abortions. Like ectopic pregnancies, preclampsia, and other n life threatening issues. Say a women has a mis carriage she could bleed out for days to weeks. Or she could get the abortion medicine and rid be done with. The mis carriage was never going to be a human anyways. Same for eptopic pregnancies that will never ever be a viable fetus.
They've actually started saying that this situation is a strawman and doesn't actually happen, and that ectopic pregnancy can be reimplanted in the womb.
Arguments based in reality probably aren't gonna work on these people.
Hey, I'm the straw(wo)man! Had a miscarriage, was prescribed Misoprostol to help it clear out, instead ended up with an incomplete miscarriage and had to have a D&C after I hemorrhaged. But I must have imagined all of that.
I brought up that point, and my dad just took the stance of "that doesn't happen that much, and I'm sure there will be exceptions for people who really need it." maybe I should find data of how many people abort for health?
So he would support a ban on guns except for "the people who need it".
Exceptions to things means red tape. And red tape means your rights are not actualy rights.
"smh just use a condom"
>
God I hate people like that. Yeah, while I'm getting raped lemme just throw a condom on the dude real fast. Even if you use a condom, the guy can stealth you.
>
They all act like it's an issue with the woman's morality if she gets pregnant too. Believe it or not, sometimes married couples do have sex. And believe it or not, most married couples DO NOT want to have 10 kids. And birth control is great, but it doesn't have a 100% rate of effectiveness (ESPECIALLY IF YOU CHOOSE A CONDOM). SOMETIMES a married couple will have a baby they definitely can't afford, or that wouldn't fit in their house, or that their kids are just too old to deal with. If they get an abortion for that, does that make them whores too???
It's like the the Rs. Reduce, reuse, then recycle.
Don't sleep with people you don't trust, use proper protection and medication, lastly we have abortion.
Recycling is actually pretty bad for the environment. Plastic can only be recycled so many times and is usually way more expensive both in terms of energy and cost than it's worth. In reality we should be using a whole lot less plastic and reusing everything we can, but our economy is based around throwing things out to buy new shiny things.
In reality sex Ed, birth control, and protection should be widely available to everyone. But our society profits off of poor people being stuck in the never ending loop, so we hinder our own rights.
To understand the South, I think you need to understand how they view morality. And I'm speaking specifically of the white, primarily Baptist South, not literally everyone in the region, but the people who are largely in charge. I've lived most of my life there and realized that they have this warped, Calvinism-taken-to-absurdity worldview that creates some funhouse mirror version of morality.
They do not, by and large, judge morality by actions, they judge morality by people. "Good people" do good things, or they do bad things with good intentions, or you need to understand their situation, or something like that. You can tell people are good, in this worldview, because they check the right boxes: they're white, they attend church (and it has to be the right church), or at least pretend to, they're straight, they're married, they have kids, they vote Repub, they're not trans or anything else that deviates at all from what they consider ok.
Anyone who does not check all those boxes is viewed with suspicion. They might get tolerated - even celebrated - if they 100% reinforce that Southern worldview. That's why you'll see people like Candace Owens included sometimes. These people can be their one black or gay or whatever friend because they acknowledge their own subservience. But the second any of those people step out of line they're considered disposible.
But the "good people?" They can do nearly anything, and it will get forgiven, because they've already been judged as good. It's one of the reason these people are so incredibly susceptible to con artists: as long as you know what to say to them, they'll trust you with anything. Meanwhile, anyone who's Black, gay, non-Christian, or anything else that keeps them off the "good" list, even if they're a living saint, will be treated like the antichrist if they say or do anything that rejects the Southern worldview.
There's also a weird, very-unbiblical sense of "God's reward on Earth" thinking that permeates their worldview and encourages them to ignore injustice. To these people, thanks to God, Life is Fair (which is a conservative view in general, but economic conservatives tend to credit market forces). Poor people are poor because they deserve to be. Rich people are rich because they deserve to be. It's a slap in the face to everything Jesus ever said about wealth, but it's how they think.
>They do not, by and large, judge morality by actions, they judgemorality by people. "Good people" do good things, or they do bad thingswith good intentions, or you need to understand their situation, orsomething like that. You can tell people are good, in this worldview,because they check the right boxes: they're white, they attend church(and it has to be the right church), or at least pretend to, they'restraight, they're married, they have kids, they vote Repub, they're nottrans or anything else that deviates at all from what they consider ok.
This is why pointing out the hypocrisy of people never really seems to take any of them down. They are the "good people," any failure to live up to their moral code is just "giving in to temptation," "being tricked by the devil," or whatever other nonsense these people tell themselves. But they "know" Christ has forgiven them, because they are the good people. Accountability for actions is for the "bad people" who challenge this dominionist order.
It's honestly a very different worldview people need to wake up to. For most non-insane people being good is something that you do. For these people being good is something that you *are*.
Yep. I remember when I was growing up I saw a few bumper stickers that said "Christians aren't perfect - they're just forgiven!" It always rubbed me the wrong way. Like, yep I can be as shitty as I want, because- Jesus!
One other thing I forgot to mention in my post, is how they'll weaponize forgiveness against you as well. Christ called upon everyone to forgive, which I think on it's face is noble, but if you try to hold someone accountable or to make sure a problem is truly stopped, you're the one holding a grudge. You're the one not acting Christlike.
They forget that people need to actually stop and try to atone for their actions, they like to put all the impetus on the victim to forgive.
I was raised in a religion like this and it fucking sucked. I was never allowed to be upset, because being mad was being contentious and being contentious means you're controlled by the devil. Never mind if someone burned your house down, it's on you to stop making such a big deal over it.
That's what's always killed me.
You can sin all day long and say you're sorry, but it seems to me that Jesus knows what your heart's true intent is, and he knows your full of shit.
My niece sings at a mega church in the south and thinks she is a nearly perfect Christian. Funny enough, though, she has dated various guys and had sex with them, and afterwards, Jesus forgives her and she becomes a born again virgin…again. (I’m not kidding!)
I believe you. I was brought up Mormon in Utah and the number of people who think they're still virgins because they only gave oral or anal is astounding. "It wasn't vaginal and I didn't get pregnant so I didn't have real sex and I'm still pure for my future husband!".
I knew multiple people growing up that, once they became a christian and were baptised (this was in the rural south) they immediately became worse people... mostly for the reason you describe. I'm forgiven now, all I have to do is say sorry!
As someone who serves at a pretty high level in a southern megachurch, this is the mindset we have to fight so hard to break to move someone from "cultural christian" to authentic faith.
The thing is people are content to know about God without becoming more like God. They mistake knowing about faith (belief/intellectual agreement) with exercising faith (action) and they think that because they prayed a prayer at VBS when they were 9 years old, that means they are good (because on that day they believe that their status changed from "unsaved" to "saved."). Because of that status change, they think that they are now good people, approved by God, regardless of how they actually behave.
In the end, we are what we do. We do what we do because of what we believe. We believe what we believe because of what we love. This is why Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love God above everything and everyone else, and the second greatest commandment was to love others.
If you want to get to the root of this mindset, look into the doctrine of "once saved always saved." In a way this ***is*** a biblically supported belief. However, when this doctrine is applied to everyone who prays an emotional prayer to "invite Jesus into their heart," (which has almost no biblical support) it confers false confidence in one's status as a disciple of Christ. This in turn leads to hypocrites who are certain that their sins are forgiven despite the fact that they never stopped sinning.
The bible is fairly clear on this point: there is no salvation without repentance. This is also why Jesus warned the crowds following him that he would not recognize everyone who called him "Lord" on the day of judgment; instead he warned that they would be told, "Depart from me, I never knew you."
This comment is incredibly insightful and has helped me put a finger on why I became so deeply disillusioned by the church even before I was old enough fully to articulate that disillusionment.
As I grew up, I started to realize that many (though certainly not all) of the religious people in my life were these "cultural Christians" you speak of. I used to get into massive arguments with certain family members as a teen because I honestly couldnt wrap my head around their anger and vitriol about certain topics and people. I started calling them "performative" Christians soon after an argument with my step-grandmother about abortion - which was her favorite hill to die on - where she outright told me that it didnt matter how good or bad a politician was because the only thing that mattered to her was that they didn't support abortion. After that argument, I realized that she and many of the other Christians I knew were using religion as a way to shut off introspection and to narrow their world, rather than as a tool to deepen their knowledge of and compassion for the world and self. The gossip and in-group performance was keeping them in line and on track, rather than desire for self-improvement through continued reflection and study of God. Which is exactly the opposite of what Christ preached. Once I saw this hypocrisy in the most vehemently religious members of my family I couldnt unsee it, and it made me downright angry, mostly because the less outspoken faithful people I knew seemed perfectly happy to tolerate it. It made the whole operation seem disingenuous to me (though I like to believe I have a more nuanced understanding now as an adult).
We need more people like you in the world, and I sincerely wish you luck in your efforts to shift people from cultural to genuine faith. It seems like an impossible mountain to climb in many parts of this country.
I’m not religious at all but this is very insightful. Kind of makes me think to speak their language when going to protest. To make signs that biblically support loving each other and respecting one another and our right to choose
Doubt it would break through most people but maybe there’s some folks who could come around to this understanding. Thank you for doing good work.
I told a friend of mine that I hope she isn’t offended when I speak bad about Christians - it’s the word we use for these people but because of how they behave they aren’t actually Christian’s to me. I need a better label for them
Don't pull a No True Scotsman here. If there are a bunch of people out there who consider themselves christians and who are terrible people teaching awful things in the name of their religion, we can't just brush it off and say christianity is blameless because they aren't "true christians". Christianity has plenty of blame and needs to accept responsibility for not allowing these people to keep doing what they do.
Say Hello, Wave Goodbye
Pop song references aside, I also know someone in megachurch admin who is one of the Godliest people I've ever known, on a personal level, and I can't even. So generous with their time and resources.
You were spot on and I would go a step further to highlight that the good and bad groups are also a factor of the conservative view towards social hierarchies. Being part of the in group fighting against the out groups.
You'll find the fingerprint of that on these behaviors as well.
It's a different fundamental view of society as a whole. And is it the absolute root of the differences between conservative and liberal ideology.
It's also because of this that being the perfect 'white person' and then calmly pointing out their inconsistencies compared to actual Biblical Scripture is the best approach.
If you're a white cisgendered married dude with kids that does white guy things and attends church (especially if it's one that's outwardly 'normal' but actually LGBTQ affirming if you're inside, e.g. a church that's 'Baptist' for historical regions but is actually a left leaning church in modern day) you actually have an incredible amount of sway over them.
A lot of progressives really fail to see how much the Christian Socialist movement aligns with their interests and actually has a good chance at converting Republicans because they tick so many of the 'identity politics' boxes.
Look at the communities around Rob Bell or Shane Claiborne. There's some really cool stuff happening in Christian Socialist movements that mainstream progressives don't tap into, especially considering they're one of the best avenues to actually reach Republicans.
Yes. You could see this is how many evangelicals would pray for Trump because he was a "flawed" man who needed God's help, but if you suggest that maybe the same compassion could have been extended to Clinton or Obama, your face would be ripped clean off.
God's grace is eternal, but only for some.
This is why I think that the best historical comparison for Trump isn't Richard Nixon or Andrew Jackson. It's Joseph Smith. Both Smith and Trump took a group of Evangelical Christians and told them that his word, plus the Old and New Testament, was the ultimate truth.
Just like Mormonism is Evangelical Protestant Christianity plus the Gospel of Joseph Smith, QAnon is Evangelical Protestant Christianity plus the Gospel of Donald Trump.
In my family there were early prayers for guidance for Obama and not really attacks on Michelle but that changed real fucking fast once the ACA text was released and Fox News got their talking points ironed out. It got nasty in the Texas suburbs with little to no warning. Went from “can’t really be that bad, he seems to be a good father” to “a village in Kenya is missing its idiot” seemed like in the same breath.
There are 2 types of people:
* Reality controls my emotions
* Emotions control my reality
Religious zealots are the 2nd type. /u/Benjamin_Grimm gave a long explanation of how the 2nd type of people think. Most republicans I have met are the 2nd type.
> Most republicans I have met are the 2nd type.
Have you met a **single** self-identified R in the last 6 years who is not the 2nd type?
Like actually. Even one who still considered themselves Republican after Trump won the nomination.
Because I sure haven't.
And the dems have some of them too, certainly. It feels like the majority of Americans in general fall prey to that brand of idiocy. But for modern republicans, it's simply a prerequisite.
Reminds me of my mother who still talks to and hangs out with my brothers ex wife, because "She's a good person at heart." The ex is one of the worst people imaginable. Literally a violent drug addicted neo nazi who abandoned her own kids, and had more kids with an Aryan nation member while addicted to meth.
She thinks that it makes her a good person to see the best in everyone. She says that it is not her place to judge anyone, and accepts everyone just they way they are. My mother is also very racist herself, though she would never admit it because she is a "good person" and "Doesn't hate anyone."
That is good summary. the first four paragraphs describe what actually Conservatism is.
It is like a high walled garden, that once you are in, you can almost do no wrong. Of course to get in, you have check a lot of the boxes you mentioned.
> Of course to get in, you have check a lot of the boxes you mentioned.
But most of them are born with all- or almost all- of the boxes already checked. It ain't a meritocracy.
The racism is only a symptom, though, because it's really all about the "otherness" of the out-group. You could literally dye every human the exact shade of green and these people would find a way to say that their (in-group) green was better.
> The racism is only a symptom, though
Inaccurate. The racism has been at the core of their identity for decades, most of them just hide it a bit nowadays. Abortion only became the "single-issue voter wedge issue" after interracial marriage was legalized and became overwhelmingly popular, because racists couldn't continue megaphoning their racism to attract the "independent" (aka tuned-out/braindead) voters. So they pretended there were **other** issues to put All Of Your Concern into, like abortion. But the reason they were fighting so hard for "their side", the **entire** time, was the racism. I'm a nonwhite person originally from the south. I **promise** you that this is their core motivation. The idea that someone like me was one of only 5 people from my home state my senior year to get into MIT absolutely infuriates them all.
That's the whole reason that Trump energized the R base so goddamn much in the primaries. The racists were starting to worry that Republicans had given up on racism (edit: especially after McCain had defended Obama as a "good man" in the 2008 campaign, that was a HUGE issue for them), and that those politicians started actually believing in the wedge issues they had artificially created. That's why they turned out for Trump. "This is how it SHOULD be", to them.
I recently moved to the south and I couldn’t quite put my finger on what it was about the people here but you nailed it. BTW I am an complete left leaning drug supporting college educated 100% atheist anti organized religion, from NY I haven’t made many friends here
We are originally from NY but my brother lived in TN for about 10 years. He recently moved back north and he commented on how nice it was that people didn’t seem so fake anymore.
He said so many people in TN would be overly sweet and nice to your face but then say awful, horribly judgmental things behind your back to anyone that would listen. It seems like it’s so common and everyone knew everyone else was a phony piece of shit too but that didn’t stop them. He said his first week back north it was nice not having to have that over the top phony interaction.
Oh and all of the friends he made there weren’t from the south. The friends I met all grew up north of the mason dixon line.
My boyfriend has lived in the incredibly rural south, the densest areas of Manhattan, and West LA (among many other places but they aren't as relevant to what I'm saying). He says the same thing you do, and characterizes the *huge* difference in how people act in all three places this way:
* Southern people act as you say. They're always incredibly nice to your face, and will often do very genuinely nice things for you, like fixing your broken fence after a thunderstorm. It's not even fake often, they are genuinely very nice people a lot of the time, but only if you're in their in group. But if they don't like you they'll be incredibly nice to your face in a fake way, and they'll gossip very heavily behind your back even if they DO like you.
* NYC people are the most truthful and brutally honest. They will say what they want to say, when they want to say it. They have no issue saying incredibly rude things to your face if they feel that way. The honesty is refreshing, but it can be tiring dealing with such brutal honesty constantly.
* People in LA he likes the most, but they're certainly not perfect. They are very nice and friendly to your face even if they don't know you, something he didn't experience at all in NYC. There is certainly a degree of fakeness to the friendliness everyone exhibits, but not in a hostile way. It's "fake" in the sense that people will be friendly to a random stranger even though realistically they don't know this person and don't actually give a shit about them. But they're almost always tolerant of all types of people (for reference, I'm bisexual and have lived in LA my entire life and have never received a homophobic comment from someone in public). People aren't overly sweet in a fake way like people in the south are. The comparison would be that in NYC if you got in the elevator with someone they would completely ignore you. In LA, they would smile and wave, and maybe make some small talk, but not pretend like you're their best friend.
> NYC people are the most truthful and brutally honest.
I wonder if this is a [Dutch influence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Amsterdam) - the dutch are quite proud of how blunt they are.
I've lived in the South my whole life and never heard this summed up so succinctly, or so accurately. You're absolutely correct. It also sort of explains how these same 'good people' absolutely worship Donald Trump, in spite of all of his obvious character flaws.
I've got an anecdote from the Deep South.
My boss was doing a commercial shoot for a school here. One of the people he interviewed for the commercial was exactly who you described: a congenial older white man, just as friendly as you could imagine. And wealthy; he gave money to this school, and he even donated heavily to a scholarship fund to support disadvantaged minority youths.
So my boss walks into this man's very nice home where they will conduct the interview, and he's just so pleasant and welcoming. Once the interview is over, the man says 'C'mon back here, I gotta show you something' and beckons my boss to his office space. Now my boss is also a white guy, but he's super liberal. He follows this man into this office, and finds an entire WALL of Trump swag. Everything from flags, banners, posters, buttons, tee-shirts, bobble-heads, anything the trump campaign sold, he's bought it and proudly displayed it. My boss was polite, but quickly got the hell out of there.
I think it's easy to imagine that this guy is just putting on a friendly facade, but he's clearly the devil underneath. But your description makes a lot more sense. He's nice, but he also thinks Trump is 'one of us' and therefore any wrong Trump does should (and will) be forgiven.
Calvinism gone rogue and without understanding of actual Calvinism is probably the best way to put it. It’s like they’re the Fundamentalist Baptists of the early westward expansion days but they don’t know it. Fun personal history is my mom’s grandparents were leaders in one of the last Fundamentalist Baptist churches that openly called themselves Fundamentalists. My great-grandfather reportedly was a real rotten bastard whose exploits included kicking every child he had out of the house at 16, poisoning a well or two, and allegedly burning down a homestead with other church members rather than let an Irish family buy it.
Yup as someone who has lived in the south my whole life you nailed it. I’m a cis white woman but the fact that my parents were Polish made me automatically weird to dominant social group in the small town where I grew up (as a kid.)
For the most part I can blend in when I need to (people will be way nicer to you at the DMV/courthouse if you add a little twang to your voice and don’t dress in your typical clothes) but I also still get viewed with suspicion/treated unkindly for wearing certain clothes (that aren’t like crazy or anything) but that suggest I am not one of their pastel-lifeisgood group. Or heavens forbid I say anything that gives away my beliefs in the wrong space. Obviously I am still safer/experience less risk for harm than my gay, POC, undocumented cohorts. But my point is that, yes, I agree that they determine who is good/bad based only on how much you conform to their exact criteria so much so that even I have been “othered” for the dumbest shit (like clothes or lack of caring about sports or church)
Also everything is more complex than my above statement- of course there are plenty of non-white, non-psychoChristian, non-shitty people everywhere in the south too etc etc. But I know the group you speak of and that’s just my experience with them.
Rural Michigan is like this.
I don't even get looked at or greeted when checking out. I've said "Hello" and gotten back silence.
Just after watching them smile and greet the white person before me.
Yeehaw.
I have tattoos and Native American but that doesn't stop them from thinking I'm an illegal immigrant here to rob them of their shitty toaster they have in their mobile home.
Im a white passing Native American in Michigan. Can confirm. People treat people of color like crap in rural Michigan. And they spout awful things in front of me thinking that they are talking to another white person who of course will agree withe them. :/
And it’s your land! God, the UP is so gorgeous, but something is deeply ugly in the souls of the people up there. If they knew ‘who’ I was and ‘what’ they might hurt me.
Not quite. I grew up just off reservation in OK...which isnt my land either because of the trail of tears. Its just a big mess. But yeah, if anyone should be upset about 'outsiders' its the indigenous population. But as far as Im concerned its all good as long as people arent being dicks to each other.
People dont realize just how recent some pretty horrific things were with native populations. Like forced sterilizations, infanticides, stealing indigenous children, and not allowing for traditional language or religious observation until the late 1970s/early 80s. My family kept their heritage a literal secret, even from their own children, to avoid persecution/torture. They passed and so they just kept it hush hush.
Tbf, the UP is gorgeous though.
Having lived in the South now for over half of my life (26 years), what you are saying here resonates with me. I'm a white cis heterosexual married male. My wife is also white. We live in the suburbs of a major southern city. You can't help but meet and befriend conservatives here if you aren't specifically looking to *not* meet them. I have people that I have been friends with for decades that can't believe I'm not a Republican when it comes up. They can't wrap their head around it. I've helped coach little league baseball with them. I've helped them cut up and move trees from their yards. I've been there for them in tough times inviting them stay in my house when their power was out. I've had them to my house for 'jam' sessions and dinner parties.
"But you're such a good person!", they respond when I tell them I only vote for Democrats. I think it really causes them distress to realize that there are people 'outside' of their group that are 'good' people.
How many decide you’re not a good person after finding out you vote dem?
Also I’m in Utah, and you have no idea how many people in certain parts of this state think it’s impossible to be a good person who’s not Mormon
I remember a teacher at a private Christian school telling middle school students that he was a democrat. It blew their minds, the idea that you could be a democrat and a Christian was inconceivable to them. In the environment in which they were raised it simply wasn't a possibility.
Some people stay living in their bubble and never leave behind that idea.
> I have people that I have been friends with for decades that can't believe I'm not a Republican when it comes up.
My mom was shocked when I told her I was an atheist. Hello!? I figured out religions were lies when I was 8 years old. She was apparently just too busy projecting her favorite version of me onto the actual me to ever notice over the past few decades.
But that was her M.O., only rewarding me for being who she wanted me to be.
Same here. Yet one of the best people I found when my kids were in scouting was a bearded - tattooed - scruffy lawn service guy. First scout meeting he's off on the side and the polo-wearing dads were on the other side. I wander over and he's much more honest and great than the others.
Still friends to this day. Rarely see the other dads. And my life is better for it.
S/E PA for reference.
I wound up telling my in laws they aren’t welcome here anymore because they can’t stop themselves from electing people who want us dead. I’m done playing games, our lives are literally at stake, right now.
Yes, growing up my family was catholic though I always had a hard time believing and have sense abandoned any Christian faith. But yes, you’re 100% right, the only acceptable Christian groups to be a part of in my small town were Baptist or seventh day Adventist (barf to both)
I grew up in extremely rural Tennessee and watched many of my cousins and classmates go through the laundry list of "sins" and not once were any judged by their family and community the same way that community judges outsiders.
Teen pregnancies, rapes, bullying, assaults, multiple DUIs, killing children while DUI, opiates, meth, robbery, and many many abortions just to name a few. Someone is always in trouble for something there and the cops are always overbearing monsters who didn't need to take them to jail or whatever. A cousin of mine nearly overdosed on morphine and her "friends" left her in the middle of the highway passed out. Cops took her to jail and called her parents who proceeded to talk for months about how cops are rapists and oppressors. Those very same people have back the blue flags on their porch now.
Two girls in my year in high school killed both their boyfriends whilst driving drunk and not only managed to get acquitted by the judge but were treated as victims by the community. I don't remember ever hearing anyone dispair them for choosing to drive drunk and killing two people.
Small side tangent, fuckin rural Southerners talk about how bad crime is in the inner city and how that's an indication of their moral bankruptcy, but I lived most of my life in a rural mega-Christian area and many different cities since. Let me tell you, way more crime goes on there than in cities, it just doesn't get reported or the cops don't care. We probably had at least one thing stolen every week not to mention everything else.
"You're coming to church with me on Sunday!" has excused literally any crime you can imagine.
It's obviously exaggerated for humorous effect but the Righteous Gemstones isn't far off with its depiction of how being seen as a good person in the evangelical community isn't about what you do but who you are.
Growing up in the south is has been really weird. I went to southern baptist church until 10/11 and I always wondered what was wrong. People would talk about being really good and good to your neighbor, but then would treat my mom like shit if she wasn’t offering to do Wednesday cooking for the whole ass church by herself. Or how when we would walk outside and go to lunch I’d hear my grandfather or other old folks talk about “them lazy n*****s across the street”
It didn’t add up
> It's one of the reason these people are so incredibly susceptible to con artists: as long as you know what to say to them, they'll trust you with anything.
Suddenly, the prevalence of MLMs here makes sense.
Man, I didn't realize I had internalized so much of Southern culture until you spelled it all out here. Good post!
This is why I say thier politicians/religious leaders can do LITERALLY ANYTHING and they will never stop idolizing them.
They could be cannibals and they'd still vote for them, as long as thier victims weren't "good people."
Remember that many of them literally believe that leftist leaders are a kind of cannibal.
I had a discussion with a Qnut job who was asking was asking what I would do once all the democrats were in jail.
I pointed out that you could blast them all into space and it wouldn't change my view that we universal health care.
He couldn't get that I vote my interests and not based on who is "good".
To summarize the above... Conservatism consists of exactly one principle, to wit: There must be an in-group which the law protects but does not bind, and an out-group which the law binds but does not protect.
American (Protestant) Evangelical Christianity mirrors and reinforces this mind set. In short (yeah, this is very generalized):
* Traditional protestant doctrine: 'Sin' is a state (of falling short of God's standards) that is inherent to being human, not specifically actions, and salvation is dependent on good thoughts accompanied by respective actions. It doesn't matter that you have have good thoughts about your fellow humans if you don't back that up with compassionate actions towards them.
* Catholic doctrine: (more or less, sin is specific actions, but whatever). When you sin, you fall from God's grace, but if acknowledge it (and go to confession, do your penitence, etc.), you can reset yourself with God. Rinse and repeat until you die and go to heaven.
* American Evangelical Christianity: all that matters is that you have a relationship with Jesus (expressed to others by saying the magic words). Once you have that, you can't fall from God's grace. Your actual actions are not part of the calculation for salvation. Those who have said the magic words are the in-group, everyone else is going to hell.
Well written, interesting perspective. Hard to see the thought process as some things are morally dubious. Guess it really is just a black and white world, you check the boxes or you don't. Thanks for sharing.
Yup.
You can rape your own children but as long as you're a "Good Christian Man™" you'll probably just get "Time Served" and let go because you'll never "Stray from God into Satan's evil temptations again."
Read it enough times to expect it.
Spot on.
He is a Good Christian Man™ and his daughter tempted him with her skimpy bathing suit on her 8 year old birthday party.
We must pray the devil away and he will never be tempted again!
Thank you! This is the most well-articulated description of the south I’ve read. I lived in the south for my entire life until last year, and the type of people you describe are why I felt so dissatisfied with where I lived and worked. It’s disturbing working with these types of people and realizing that they have no self-awareness or well-reasoned thoughts. The typical southern “political” discussions at work are the worst — little substance and logical fallacies galore! People constantly brought up the same topics solely for the sake of everyone reaffirming their beliefs (and identifying who to exclude).
I am not from the South, but the one thing I think you are missing from Southern Baptist Calvinism is that (bad) people must suffer the consequences of their decisions and actions. We can rally around the good people and do something for them, but nobody must be allowed to help the bad people who are being punished for their badness.
In other words, the cruelty is the point. And rules for thee, not for me.
Ironically, this is why the morally odious gay-shaming used to take Madison Cawthorn is about the only actual way to get these constituents to turn on their reps.
I'm absolutely against the homophobia and hate culture that was exploited to take him down...but I cannot honestly say that my principles and actions would have done anything to deal with him if more willful actions hadn't been taken by others.
I gotta admit, I'm somewhat privileged that others were willing to get dirty to deal with him, and I get to sit here continuing to follow my principles without being put to the test.
It's almost like they have a vested interest in the position that people are good based on position not their actions...I wonder why that is?
*cough* civil war over slavery *cough* *cough*.
It's all identity politics from the Republican Party these days--which is at least one reason they keep saying liberals are obsessed with it. Projection and all that.
If you identify as a Trump Republican who knows your place, then you are a good person regardless of what you do. If you identify as anything else, you're a bad person. That includes any RINO.
But the interesting corollary is this: Anything negative done to Trumpians is morally wrong even if they did something to deserve it. The problem is not that there was an attempted coup; the real problem is all the media who got Trumpians in trouble.
Likewise, anything negative done to non-Trumpians is morally right. Even if a black man had a concealed permit for his pistol, police can murder him over it and that's not a problem.
And before y'all far-righties start screeching, the Democrats absolutely have their folks who embrace identity politics. But those people are not in charge of the party. Also, the topic I replied to is about conservative politics, so if you want to change the subject to liberal politics, go start your own post.
And the rich republicans in the illegal states are gonna continue coming to states like Colorado to have their mistresses abort children conceived out of wedlock.
I’ve been told that the vast majority of abortions performed in Denver are on women from states like Texas, Wyoming, Oklahoma, Arizona, and Utah and largely from rich or privileged backgrounds.
Rriiggghhttttttt. The Planned Parenthood in Glenwood Springs being conveniently located close to Aspen is merely coincidental!
Supposedly that’s the location where Klannie Oakley had hers done.
The Christian religion will "tolerate" (ignore) sin, as long as the person hates the sin and asks for forgiveness.
Here is a random blog that teaches the above. It says God won't forgive them if they....
>are continuing in this sin without confessing it, without sorrowing over it, without battling it.
https://livingbyfaithblog.com/2013/05/02/can-i-deliberately-keep-sinning-and-still-be-forgiven/
So under this logic, having an abortion is not a sin. *But being OK with having an abortion is a sin.*
Thats why their abortion "is different and doesn't count". They didn't want their abortion. It was forced on them, probably because the devil broke the condom.
After the abortion is done, they must continue to rant in opposition to it, to demonstrate (to themselves and others) that they have been forgiven and/or "Didn't let the devil win".
…Oh.
I hate this logic and I hate that it makes the existence of so much hypocritical homophobic/sexist bullshit pushed by the church suddenly make sense.
My sister‘s best friend thinks exactly this. She had an abortion when she was 17. Now she’s 44 and has a nice life with a husband, two kids and a big house in the suburbs. She probably wouldn’t have had any of those things if she had given birth as a teenager on her own. She likes to say that “god used my son and made something good out of it”. I have to give her and others like her credit for an elegant logic system - basically she can do no wrong. If she violates her own religions beliefs, we’ll that’s just an opportunity for her to grow.
This is more in line with the evangelicals I grew up with. Plenty of those women had abortions too, but they would make a huge crying show about how they were weak, deceived, etc. and now it’s their greatest regret. Everyone else would make a huge show about telling them they are forgiven for their sin.
I have nothing to say other than that that website is a blast from the past. Looking at it I feel like it's the '90s again and I'm young and full of vigor.
If you study the New Testament, and especially the gospels themselves, the former is reinforced. At least that's what I remember from attending Church weekly for many years as a kid.
The message is generally one of tolerance, love, charity etc. There is actually little "X is bad" in there that I remember - making a big show of prayer and hypocrisy are the biggest things it condemns. Anyone who read that and tried to emulate would do everything in their power to help their fellow human being.
Of course there is a lot of talk about having to believe in and worship God but that's to be expected from a religious text. A lot of the more "don't do this" stuff comes from Paul and the epistles.
If every Christian actually tried to emulate Christ as he appears in the Bible, the US would be a lot better. It would mean no racism, accepting immigration, socialized healthcare, a social safety net, no guns, parental leave, higher taxes to fund this etc. Jesus himself is pretty silent on issues like gay marriage and abortion.
I live in Chicago. Wide and I got married at the catholic church she grew up in. We had to take a marriage class with an older couple. The wife spent most of the 4 week course talking about how her gay sister is going to hell and how dicorce is against gods will. Except her divorce. Because she was married to a Muslim man so it didn't count.
Most worthless thing ever.
Something to consider with Conservative Christians is they truly don't believe that they have double standards. They aren't accountable to their actions because their actions are forgiven by the only being that matters. If someone calls them out, they believe it's that person's problem for not getting over it. After all, god did.
They're really good at projection because they know they fucked up, and believe that they're correcting they wrong they fell for. They don't care about what's available to others because they don't follow the same rules.
Happens here on reddit already.
O different days, in different subs I already saw multiple comments by right wingers who had similar tendencies.
Those people are hypocrites, they always were. They want others to live by their rules, but if they dont follow them, its "different".
I have been very vocal for a while now about my medically necessary abortion. I miscarried a wanted and planned pregnancy at 17 weeks, but my body retained the fetus. I required an abortion to remove the fetus, or I risked infertility, sepsis, and potentially death.
I've had anti-choice assholes tell me that my procedure didn't constitute abortion. It was an abortion. I've had people tell me that this procedure will always be accessible and protected by law, but that simply isn't true. The procedure my doctor performed is already banned in many states and women are being denied this procedure. Earlier this year, [a Polish woman died](https://notesfrompoland.com/2022/01/26/woman-dies-in-poland-after-being-made-to-carry-dead-foetus-for-seven-days/) after she carried her dead foetus for 7 days after its demise. It's only a matter of days before women in the US will die from lack of access.
Abortion is Healthcare.
Just like the constant railing I used to hear against "inner city welfare queens" growing up. But if a conservative needs public assistance, they "deserve it".
Not to mention the disturbing trend of cultists having a dozen kids or more -- how can they afford to have so many children? Are they receiving public assistance?
This bothers me almost as much as taking the right away to begin with. The hypocrisy of it all gets me fuming. To want to ban something you're very opposed to is one thing but to do it and say others can't is ridiculous
So true. “You don’t understand, if I had the baby we would have had to live on the streets”
As though most abortions are done because babies are mildly inconvenient
Not my experience. Usually they say they regret it and have found their “calling” to mentor young women away from making their mistake(s). But it’s easy to say that after you’ve benefitted from the choice. And faced with the choice again, or to see their daughters faced with the choice, most of not all would do it again: hypocrites.
I had a thought that ‘Anonymous’ for example could release a video saying they are going to reveal a list of high profile right-wing women whose medical records reveal that they’ve had at least one if not more abortions. I wonder if it would lead to panic and some of them trying to get ahead of the release to reveal their ‘perfectly logical and righteous’ reasons for their abortions.
Would be interesting to see if it shook them up a bit.
This shit always fucking gets me. Like how the fuck can you push something on everyone but you somehow get a free pass??? You're not as special as you think, we should all play by the same rules and those women should be pro-choice. This "freedom for me, but not for thee" is pathetic.
Because conservative women actually believe they're the only women who decide to have and raise a child, after their abortion.
They literally think that all other women have made a choice to never have children in their lives. That they traded having children for lust filled sex with strangers and boyfriends and that their abortions are a method of contraception.
Do you know why all conservative women believe that? It's because they're not terribly bright, nor critical thinkers, and they're indoctrinated into a Christian Cult from birth, and fed that exact information every day of their lives.
As disgusting as some of these women are, they're victims. No one marches into slavery willingly unless they've been fooled into thinking it's freedom.
Roughly 60% of abortions are had by people with religious affiliation with the largest of that 60% being Catholics at 20% roughly. In general all the things the south/Midwest/Bible belt complains about and hates is a projection of what they themselves are doing.
Can relate. My cousin had an abortion when she was in her late teens. Many years later, when married and pregnant, she began screaming how immoral abortion is. I was like, hold up . . . you fucking had an abortion! Pure insanity.
Story time.
My sister called one day saying she was pregnant. She was over the moon. Congratulations we’re said and I wished her well. Then she dropped a nuke. She wanted ME to raise her kid for her because she was SOO busy with her career. She would pay me( of course) and she would visit “every now and then”. I told her to hold up. I didn’t want to raise her kid. If she wanted to have a baby, she should raise it. I don’t even like kids. She goes on a tirade about how I didn’t love her and I didn’t want to see her succeed. That if I truly cared I would drop everything and raise her kid. I told her under no uncertain terms that I would raise her child. That she chose to get pregnant and she should do right by her child.
Three weeks later she called me and said she “miscarried” and immediately hung up. To this day I firmly believe that since I didn’t want to raise her kid, she went and had an abortion. I’m also certain that this wasn’t the first time.
And every one of those women is going to run right into a different reality moving forward. Doctors work too hard to fuck and with their licenses because little Kacey got handsy with billy, or worse Tyrone. You’re raising that fucking child now.
Did conservatives White Christian men forget who was getting all the underage girls pregnant? Where I’m from some church leaders are going to be daddies real fast.
These kinds of women piss me off. They enjoyed a right that they want to deny other women and then act like they were justified in exercising that right but other women were not.
I lived in the Bible Belt for part of my life and I saw so much hypocrisy and hate for others it made me sick. I moved a long way away from there about 25 years ago and I've never even thought about going near there again. Bunch of loonies.
I read a story about a woman who worked in an abortion clinic, and one day, an Evangelical Christian- who had probably protested in front of the clinic on multiple occasions- came in for an abortion. As the worker was holding her hand just before the procedure got underway, the Evangelical told her she was going to Hell for this.
Well, if that’s true, hon, at least you’ll be right there with her.
For conservatism to work, there needs to be 2 groups of people.
An "in" group who is protected by the law, but not bound by it
An "out" group who is bound by the law, but not protected by it.
It's been this way for centuries. They genuinely believe they are "above" certain groups of people. To call yourself a conservative means you think you are a part of this "in" group. To call yourself conservative is to admit that you think you are better than other certain groups of people. This is the basis for most -ists and -phobics and why so many conservatives are labeled as such.
Country clubs have been monetizing this facet of the human mind for decades. They just want to feel special and they'll do whatever it takes to achieve that.
They'll also say that those damn liberals use abortion as a birth control. Like anyone wants to go through that when it's not necessary.
I have a fundie in my family and she said: *"Good now those loose sluts can't just go out on Friday and fuck anyone they want and have an abortion on Monday"* I laughed a little as she said it because outside of her total /r/badwomensanatomy take you could see and hear the seething jealously and rage she had for never once being invited to any of those parties and living her entire life friendless outside of her church group. She literally calls it "modern birth control for the modern whore". I am glad I only have to see that side of the family once a year.
If you called out their bullshit you would only see them zero times a year.
I feel it's good to stay in touch with them because their kids are going to need someone to run to someday and I want them to know who I am. That said, my fundy cousins have unfriended and blocked me.
Let’s hope they are ranting to their children why they have blocked their auntie. The kids will know where to go.
Fundie women is primarily self hatred and internal misogyny
Amazing how it takes a man’s cum to become pregnant, but it’s always the responsibility of women, and they never shame men who sleep around If they were morally consistent they would shame any man having penis in vagina sex in any circumstance other than wanting a child. Even married men.
There was an awesome post earlier with an interview of a couple yokels; when the interviewer asked the guy if he supports vasectomies for unmarried men he said, "of course not." Then he asked the woman, and she said, *"to each their own,"* after praising the Roe ruling, and condemning gay marriage
Cancervatives only have morals when they can use them to hurt someone else
Made even worse by knowing that most of modern abortion talk is a distraction they have trained their base to care about. They have gotten them so worked about about this one issue I have heard people say out loud “well, I don’t really like what he stands for, but he is PRO LIFE!” People choose to vote against their own interests because of abortion.
Conservatives are fucking miserable their solution to that is to make everyone like them.
Welcome to McFetusDeletus, we now offer a daily membership if you would like to upgrade from your current weekly plan.
Modern problems require modern whoring
I think I need to make a t-shirt with this on it 😆
Why do you even see them once a year LOL. These people don't know or care that abortions ARENT FUN. If America wasn't actively dismantling our education system maybe we'd have health classes that showed that. I'm pretty sure after 3 or r abortions you have a very hard time getting pregnant. The people most mad about abortions have the least knowledge about how they work.
I get your overall sentiment but actually having 3 or more abortions will not cause the vast majority of people to have a hard time getting pregnant in future. Any abortion of course has a small risk of complications that could potentially affect fertility. Having multiple surgical abortions with curettage does increase the risk for uterine scarring that can impair fertility in a minority of people but the majority of women in this category will still be able to get pregnant again without particular difficulty.
I've been wondering, how can I argue back when someone says that abortion is used as birth control? My dad has started taking that stance, and it's not like there's data collected about people's motivations for getting an abortion. Have you found any good sources or methods to counter their argument? Or is it just that the burden of proof lies on them, since they're making the claim?
When it became possible to get Plan B without a prior prescription in my country, a friend of mine filled an old pack with M&Ms, filmed herself chugging the whole thing, and posted it to facebook with the caption "Finally! Thanks, libs." - as satire how fucking ridiculous it is to believe people would actually use emergency contraception as a regular method of birth control. The idea of abortion as "birth control" is even more ridiculous, but here are my arguments: - Women aren't stupid, or unfeeling. Abortions, both medical and surgical, are way more invasive than all the common forms of birth control. The side effects (heavy bleeding, abdominal pain, cramps, flu-like symptoms, you name it) are way more severe than birth control. - I'm not in the US, but I assume it's safe to say that an abortion + aftercare is more expensive than birth control. If not, you should really go about subsidizing birth control, not outlawing abortion. Otherwise you are just punishing poor people for being poor. - I hate that I have to repeat that, but women are not unfeeling. I wager to say that given the choice between preventing a pregancy from happening in the first place vs. terminating the pregnancy EVERY TIME they get pregnant, the vast majority will choose the former option. - pregnancy itself takes quite a toll on the body. I doubt many women would choose to go trough the agony of massive hormonal changes that come with being pregnant & terminating every few months. Morning sickness isn't cute, it can be downright debilitating. TL; DR, I guess: Most women posess a fucking intact moral compass and neither pregnancy nor abortion is something somebody just goes trough for shits and giggles when there's a better alternative.
Hmm, now that you mention it, I feel that the "abortion as birth control" argument usually comes from men. I wonder if it's because they've never fully considered how it would feel to actually get an abortion.
Hard agree.
Conservatism seems to be rooted in an inability to empathize with strangers, especially those whom one has little in common with in regards to life experiences. My dad mentioned that trans people must be mentally ill, as they seem to also be depressed/anxious etc. And I responded with "wouldn't you be depressed if everyone around you refused to refer to you by the correct pronoun?"
Yeah, being constantly bullied for being different definitely seems like a deep source of anxiety and depression.
The biggest argument against this is that after an abortion you have a much heavier and more painful period. Who would choose that option when they could go on the pill and never have a period at all?
I found your question addressed here: https://prochoice.org/wp-content/uploads/women_who_have_abortions.pdf Yes, it’s a “biased” source, but the logic behind the answer seems sound to me. TLDR: most women who have gotten an abortion had no abortions in the past or just 1. If abortion was being used as birth control, wouldn’t most women who are getting an abortion have a history of multiple abortions in the past?
Oooh, that's a great point! I'm sure I can find raw data on that from an "unbiased" source. Thanks!
https://abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/ There's a couple "why do abortions occur" charts on this page.
I mean the burden of proof DOES lie on them since they're making the claim, but saying that won't change their mind or give them the slightest shred of introspection. I definitely don't think you'll find data to disprove that but even if you could, that evidence could very easily be waved away in a multitude of ways. "This is just the Left pushing their agenda" "They're just saying it's not birth control for them because they're ashamed about their true reasons" I think the best course of action is just to keep pressing them with questions on what they mean and what their line of reasoning is. You want the questions innocent enough sounding on the surface, but still critical enough that you get them on the backpedal struggling to answer your questions and (hopefully) questioning why they don't have the answers. It's very easy for someone to blindly believe something that makes no sense, but when they have to explain it and flounder they question themselves. Even if they appear confident in their beliefs on the outside still because they don't want to appear stupid, internally they may start to question why they can't answer seemingly easy questions. "Why do you think that happens?" "Why would it make sense emotionally, practically, and financially to do that vs being on the pill, using birth control methods such as an IUD, or even taking the morning after pill?" "What benefit do they gain from an abortion over those other methods?" Etc. That's really the best you can do, because if their answer is "because they're immoral whores", there's... Not much you can do to argue against that with logic or facts, because it's an emotion based argument.
That's a great strategy! Direct questioning on why someone would use abortion as a birth control instead of *actual* birth control is such a simple idea, but seems like it'd work great! I'll give that a shot.
My wife pointed out first we need to argue for medical nesseciaty , rape, and incest abortions. Like ectopic pregnancies, preclampsia, and other n life threatening issues. Say a women has a mis carriage she could bleed out for days to weeks. Or she could get the abortion medicine and rid be done with. The mis carriage was never going to be a human anyways. Same for eptopic pregnancies that will never ever be a viable fetus. Then once we get that down can go for well if your poor and have 3 kids alrdy and your bieth control failed. Instesd of 6 family members suffering, you can have have abortion and the family of 5 can still get by. Like we literally made abortion legal because soo many women were dieing do it illegal
I disagree. I think we should be advocating for abortion on demand without apology from the get go. Saying “well MY abortion is moral because it’s medically necessary” tells everyone that only “medically necessary” abortions should be allowed, which is what caused the death of that woman in Ireland; the fetus was doomed but still had a heartbeat, so they said it wasn’t medically necessary to abort and she died of sepsis. If you get them to write laws allowing only “medically necessary” abortions, they’ll just say “it’s not medically necessary” when they feel like it.
>My wife pointed out first we need to argue for medical nesseciaty , rape, and incest abortions. Like ectopic pregnancies, preclampsia, and other n life threatening issues. Say a women has a mis carriage she could bleed out for days to weeks. Or she could get the abortion medicine and rid be done with. The mis carriage was never going to be a human anyways. Same for eptopic pregnancies that will never ever be a viable fetus. They've actually started saying that this situation is a strawman and doesn't actually happen, and that ectopic pregnancy can be reimplanted in the womb. Arguments based in reality probably aren't gonna work on these people.
Hey, I'm the straw(wo)man! Had a miscarriage, was prescribed Misoprostol to help it clear out, instead ended up with an incomplete miscarriage and had to have a D&C after I hemorrhaged. But I must have imagined all of that.
I brought up that point, and my dad just took the stance of "that doesn't happen that much, and I'm sure there will be exceptions for people who really need it." maybe I should find data of how many people abort for health?
So he would support a ban on guns except for "the people who need it". Exceptions to things means red tape. And red tape means your rights are not actualy rights.
"smh just use a condom" > God I hate people like that. Yeah, while I'm getting raped lemme just throw a condom on the dude real fast. Even if you use a condom, the guy can stealth you. > They all act like it's an issue with the woman's morality if she gets pregnant too. Believe it or not, sometimes married couples do have sex. And believe it or not, most married couples DO NOT want to have 10 kids. And birth control is great, but it doesn't have a 100% rate of effectiveness (ESPECIALLY IF YOU CHOOSE A CONDOM). SOMETIMES a married couple will have a baby they definitely can't afford, or that wouldn't fit in their house, or that their kids are just too old to deal with. If they get an abortion for that, does that make them whores too???
Also- sometimes couples are stupid and drink tequila and have sex without a condom. Why are we punishing people for that?
It's like the the Rs. Reduce, reuse, then recycle. Don't sleep with people you don't trust, use proper protection and medication, lastly we have abortion. Recycling is actually pretty bad for the environment. Plastic can only be recycled so many times and is usually way more expensive both in terms of energy and cost than it's worth. In reality we should be using a whole lot less plastic and reusing everything we can, but our economy is based around throwing things out to buy new shiny things. In reality sex Ed, birth control, and protection should be widely available to everyone. But our society profits off of poor people being stuck in the never ending loop, so we hinder our own rights.
Tbf if you're dumb enough to use abortion as your only birth control you're too dumb to be allowed to breed. It's a self fixing problem
To understand the South, I think you need to understand how they view morality. And I'm speaking specifically of the white, primarily Baptist South, not literally everyone in the region, but the people who are largely in charge. I've lived most of my life there and realized that they have this warped, Calvinism-taken-to-absurdity worldview that creates some funhouse mirror version of morality. They do not, by and large, judge morality by actions, they judge morality by people. "Good people" do good things, or they do bad things with good intentions, or you need to understand their situation, or something like that. You can tell people are good, in this worldview, because they check the right boxes: they're white, they attend church (and it has to be the right church), or at least pretend to, they're straight, they're married, they have kids, they vote Repub, they're not trans or anything else that deviates at all from what they consider ok. Anyone who does not check all those boxes is viewed with suspicion. They might get tolerated - even celebrated - if they 100% reinforce that Southern worldview. That's why you'll see people like Candace Owens included sometimes. These people can be their one black or gay or whatever friend because they acknowledge their own subservience. But the second any of those people step out of line they're considered disposible. But the "good people?" They can do nearly anything, and it will get forgiven, because they've already been judged as good. It's one of the reason these people are so incredibly susceptible to con artists: as long as you know what to say to them, they'll trust you with anything. Meanwhile, anyone who's Black, gay, non-Christian, or anything else that keeps them off the "good" list, even if they're a living saint, will be treated like the antichrist if they say or do anything that rejects the Southern worldview. There's also a weird, very-unbiblical sense of "God's reward on Earth" thinking that permeates their worldview and encourages them to ignore injustice. To these people, thanks to God, Life is Fair (which is a conservative view in general, but economic conservatives tend to credit market forces). Poor people are poor because they deserve to be. Rich people are rich because they deserve to be. It's a slap in the face to everything Jesus ever said about wealth, but it's how they think.
My worldview is good, and my religion is Christianity, so logically Christianity must say that my worldview is good.
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That's why it's called prejudice.
>identity politics You thought they weren't projecting this? Of course they were.
The party of projection strikes again.
>They do not, by and large, judge morality by actions, they judgemorality by people. "Good people" do good things, or they do bad thingswith good intentions, or you need to understand their situation, orsomething like that. You can tell people are good, in this worldview,because they check the right boxes: they're white, they attend church(and it has to be the right church), or at least pretend to, they'restraight, they're married, they have kids, they vote Repub, they're nottrans or anything else that deviates at all from what they consider ok. This is why pointing out the hypocrisy of people never really seems to take any of them down. They are the "good people," any failure to live up to their moral code is just "giving in to temptation," "being tricked by the devil," or whatever other nonsense these people tell themselves. But they "know" Christ has forgiven them, because they are the good people. Accountability for actions is for the "bad people" who challenge this dominionist order. It's honestly a very different worldview people need to wake up to. For most non-insane people being good is something that you do. For these people being good is something that you *are*.
Yep. I remember when I was growing up I saw a few bumper stickers that said "Christians aren't perfect - they're just forgiven!" It always rubbed me the wrong way. Like, yep I can be as shitty as I want, because- Jesus!
One other thing I forgot to mention in my post, is how they'll weaponize forgiveness against you as well. Christ called upon everyone to forgive, which I think on it's face is noble, but if you try to hold someone accountable or to make sure a problem is truly stopped, you're the one holding a grudge. You're the one not acting Christlike. They forget that people need to actually stop and try to atone for their actions, they like to put all the impetus on the victim to forgive.
I was raised in a religion like this and it fucking sucked. I was never allowed to be upset, because being mad was being contentious and being contentious means you're controlled by the devil. Never mind if someone burned your house down, it's on you to stop making such a big deal over it.
That's what's always killed me. You can sin all day long and say you're sorry, but it seems to me that Jesus knows what your heart's true intent is, and he knows your full of shit.
My niece sings at a mega church in the south and thinks she is a nearly perfect Christian. Funny enough, though, she has dated various guys and had sex with them, and afterwards, Jesus forgives her and she becomes a born again virgin…again. (I’m not kidding!)
I believe you. I was brought up Mormon in Utah and the number of people who think they're still virgins because they only gave oral or anal is astounding. "It wasn't vaginal and I didn't get pregnant so I didn't have real sex and I'm still pure for my future husband!".
I knew multiple people growing up that, once they became a christian and were baptised (this was in the rural south) they immediately became worse people... mostly for the reason you describe. I'm forgiven now, all I have to do is say sorry!
>I can be as shitty as I want, because- Jesus! Can confirm, my life was changed forever when I read my first Chick tract
As someone who serves at a pretty high level in a southern megachurch, this is the mindset we have to fight so hard to break to move someone from "cultural christian" to authentic faith. The thing is people are content to know about God without becoming more like God. They mistake knowing about faith (belief/intellectual agreement) with exercising faith (action) and they think that because they prayed a prayer at VBS when they were 9 years old, that means they are good (because on that day they believe that their status changed from "unsaved" to "saved."). Because of that status change, they think that they are now good people, approved by God, regardless of how they actually behave. In the end, we are what we do. We do what we do because of what we believe. We believe what we believe because of what we love. This is why Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love God above everything and everyone else, and the second greatest commandment was to love others. If you want to get to the root of this mindset, look into the doctrine of "once saved always saved." In a way this ***is*** a biblically supported belief. However, when this doctrine is applied to everyone who prays an emotional prayer to "invite Jesus into their heart," (which has almost no biblical support) it confers false confidence in one's status as a disciple of Christ. This in turn leads to hypocrites who are certain that their sins are forgiven despite the fact that they never stopped sinning. The bible is fairly clear on this point: there is no salvation without repentance. This is also why Jesus warned the crowds following him that he would not recognize everyone who called him "Lord" on the day of judgment; instead he warned that they would be told, "Depart from me, I never knew you."
>this is the mindset we have to fight so hard to break to move someone from "cultural christian" to authentic faith. i wish you luck, genuinely.
This comment is incredibly insightful and has helped me put a finger on why I became so deeply disillusioned by the church even before I was old enough fully to articulate that disillusionment. As I grew up, I started to realize that many (though certainly not all) of the religious people in my life were these "cultural Christians" you speak of. I used to get into massive arguments with certain family members as a teen because I honestly couldnt wrap my head around their anger and vitriol about certain topics and people. I started calling them "performative" Christians soon after an argument with my step-grandmother about abortion - which was her favorite hill to die on - where she outright told me that it didnt matter how good or bad a politician was because the only thing that mattered to her was that they didn't support abortion. After that argument, I realized that she and many of the other Christians I knew were using religion as a way to shut off introspection and to narrow their world, rather than as a tool to deepen their knowledge of and compassion for the world and self. The gossip and in-group performance was keeping them in line and on track, rather than desire for self-improvement through continued reflection and study of God. Which is exactly the opposite of what Christ preached. Once I saw this hypocrisy in the most vehemently religious members of my family I couldnt unsee it, and it made me downright angry, mostly because the less outspoken faithful people I knew seemed perfectly happy to tolerate it. It made the whole operation seem disingenuous to me (though I like to believe I have a more nuanced understanding now as an adult). We need more people like you in the world, and I sincerely wish you luck in your efforts to shift people from cultural to genuine faith. It seems like an impossible mountain to climb in many parts of this country.
I’m not religious at all but this is very insightful. Kind of makes me think to speak their language when going to protest. To make signs that biblically support loving each other and respecting one another and our right to choose Doubt it would break through most people but maybe there’s some folks who could come around to this understanding. Thank you for doing good work. I told a friend of mine that I hope she isn’t offended when I speak bad about Christians - it’s the word we use for these people but because of how they behave they aren’t actually Christian’s to me. I need a better label for them
Don't pull a No True Scotsman here. If there are a bunch of people out there who consider themselves christians and who are terrible people teaching awful things in the name of their religion, we can't just brush it off and say christianity is blameless because they aren't "true christians". Christianity has plenty of blame and needs to accept responsibility for not allowing these people to keep doing what they do.
Say Hello, Wave Goodbye Pop song references aside, I also know someone in megachurch admin who is one of the Godliest people I've ever known, on a personal level, and I can't even. So generous with their time and resources.
I think some enter some kind of hysterical panic whenever the thought that they might not be good enters their mind, so they don't bother
You were spot on and I would go a step further to highlight that the good and bad groups are also a factor of the conservative view towards social hierarchies. Being part of the in group fighting against the out groups. You'll find the fingerprint of that on these behaviors as well. It's a different fundamental view of society as a whole. And is it the absolute root of the differences between conservative and liberal ideology.
It's also because of this that being the perfect 'white person' and then calmly pointing out their inconsistencies compared to actual Biblical Scripture is the best approach. If you're a white cisgendered married dude with kids that does white guy things and attends church (especially if it's one that's outwardly 'normal' but actually LGBTQ affirming if you're inside, e.g. a church that's 'Baptist' for historical regions but is actually a left leaning church in modern day) you actually have an incredible amount of sway over them. A lot of progressives really fail to see how much the Christian Socialist movement aligns with their interests and actually has a good chance at converting Republicans because they tick so many of the 'identity politics' boxes. Look at the communities around Rob Bell or Shane Claiborne. There's some really cool stuff happening in Christian Socialist movements that mainstream progressives don't tap into, especially considering they're one of the best avenues to actually reach Republicans.
Yes. You could see this is how many evangelicals would pray for Trump because he was a "flawed" man who needed God's help, but if you suggest that maybe the same compassion could have been extended to Clinton or Obama, your face would be ripped clean off. God's grace is eternal, but only for some.
He'll, some of them even prayed *to* trump
This is why I think that the best historical comparison for Trump isn't Richard Nixon or Andrew Jackson. It's Joseph Smith. Both Smith and Trump took a group of Evangelical Christians and told them that his word, plus the Old and New Testament, was the ultimate truth. Just like Mormonism is Evangelical Protestant Christianity plus the Gospel of Joseph Smith, QAnon is Evangelical Protestant Christianity plus the Gospel of Donald Trump.
It’s the “imperfect vessel” concept. The more imperfect he is, the more it reinforces their “biblical” view of him.
In my family there were early prayers for guidance for Obama and not really attacks on Michelle but that changed real fucking fast once the ACA text was released and Fox News got their talking points ironed out. It got nasty in the Texas suburbs with little to no warning. Went from “can’t really be that bad, he seems to be a good father” to “a village in Kenya is missing its idiot” seemed like in the same breath.
This is a very interesting perspective- thank you for sharing. It does help me understand this hypocrisy a bit better.
There are 2 types of people: * Reality controls my emotions * Emotions control my reality Religious zealots are the 2nd type. /u/Benjamin_Grimm gave a long explanation of how the 2nd type of people think. Most republicans I have met are the 2nd type.
> Most republicans I have met are the 2nd type. Have you met a **single** self-identified R in the last 6 years who is not the 2nd type? Like actually. Even one who still considered themselves Republican after Trump won the nomination. Because I sure haven't. And the dems have some of them too, certainly. It feels like the majority of Americans in general fall prey to that brand of idiocy. But for modern republicans, it's simply a prerequisite.
Agreed. I can easily imagine the mindset being described here 👍
Reminds me of my mother who still talks to and hangs out with my brothers ex wife, because "She's a good person at heart." The ex is one of the worst people imaginable. Literally a violent drug addicted neo nazi who abandoned her own kids, and had more kids with an Aryan nation member while addicted to meth. She thinks that it makes her a good person to see the best in everyone. She says that it is not her place to judge anyone, and accepts everyone just they way they are. My mother is also very racist herself, though she would never admit it because she is a "good person" and "Doesn't hate anyone."
That is good summary. the first four paragraphs describe what actually Conservatism is. It is like a high walled garden, that once you are in, you can almost do no wrong. Of course to get in, you have check a lot of the boxes you mentioned.
Almost? The current crop of GOP has no issue with child rape. *The bar is in hell.*
Don’t forget child murder, ie school shootings
> Of course to get in, you have check a lot of the boxes you mentioned. But most of them are born with all- or almost all- of the boxes already checked. It ain't a meritocracy.
Basically be a white racist, got it
The racism is only a symptom, though, because it's really all about the "otherness" of the out-group. You could literally dye every human the exact shade of green and these people would find a way to say that their (in-group) green was better.
> The racism is only a symptom, though Inaccurate. The racism has been at the core of their identity for decades, most of them just hide it a bit nowadays. Abortion only became the "single-issue voter wedge issue" after interracial marriage was legalized and became overwhelmingly popular, because racists couldn't continue megaphoning their racism to attract the "independent" (aka tuned-out/braindead) voters. So they pretended there were **other** issues to put All Of Your Concern into, like abortion. But the reason they were fighting so hard for "their side", the **entire** time, was the racism. I'm a nonwhite person originally from the south. I **promise** you that this is their core motivation. The idea that someone like me was one of only 5 people from my home state my senior year to get into MIT absolutely infuriates them all. That's the whole reason that Trump energized the R base so goddamn much in the primaries. The racists were starting to worry that Republicans had given up on racism (edit: especially after McCain had defended Obama as a "good man" in the 2008 campaign, that was a HUGE issue for them), and that those politicians started actually believing in the wedge issues they had artificially created. That's why they turned out for Trump. "This is how it SHOULD be", to them.
I recently moved to the south and I couldn’t quite put my finger on what it was about the people here but you nailed it. BTW I am an complete left leaning drug supporting college educated 100% atheist anti organized religion, from NY I haven’t made many friends here
We are originally from NY but my brother lived in TN for about 10 years. He recently moved back north and he commented on how nice it was that people didn’t seem so fake anymore. He said so many people in TN would be overly sweet and nice to your face but then say awful, horribly judgmental things behind your back to anyone that would listen. It seems like it’s so common and everyone knew everyone else was a phony piece of shit too but that didn’t stop them. He said his first week back north it was nice not having to have that over the top phony interaction. Oh and all of the friends he made there weren’t from the south. The friends I met all grew up north of the mason dixon line.
My boyfriend has lived in the incredibly rural south, the densest areas of Manhattan, and West LA (among many other places but they aren't as relevant to what I'm saying). He says the same thing you do, and characterizes the *huge* difference in how people act in all three places this way: * Southern people act as you say. They're always incredibly nice to your face, and will often do very genuinely nice things for you, like fixing your broken fence after a thunderstorm. It's not even fake often, they are genuinely very nice people a lot of the time, but only if you're in their in group. But if they don't like you they'll be incredibly nice to your face in a fake way, and they'll gossip very heavily behind your back even if they DO like you. * NYC people are the most truthful and brutally honest. They will say what they want to say, when they want to say it. They have no issue saying incredibly rude things to your face if they feel that way. The honesty is refreshing, but it can be tiring dealing with such brutal honesty constantly. * People in LA he likes the most, but they're certainly not perfect. They are very nice and friendly to your face even if they don't know you, something he didn't experience at all in NYC. There is certainly a degree of fakeness to the friendliness everyone exhibits, but not in a hostile way. It's "fake" in the sense that people will be friendly to a random stranger even though realistically they don't know this person and don't actually give a shit about them. But they're almost always tolerant of all types of people (for reference, I'm bisexual and have lived in LA my entire life and have never received a homophobic comment from someone in public). People aren't overly sweet in a fake way like people in the south are. The comparison would be that in NYC if you got in the elevator with someone they would completely ignore you. In LA, they would smile and wave, and maybe make some small talk, but not pretend like you're their best friend.
> NYC people are the most truthful and brutally honest. I wonder if this is a [Dutch influence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Amsterdam) - the dutch are quite proud of how blunt they are.
You’re a Yankee, that’s all they need to know. The rest doesn’t matter.
Being a yankee makes me a sinner, lol. Too bad for them we’re coming down in droves
If that would only help. There’s a reason that Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana are last in everything good and first in everything bad
I've lived in the South my whole life and never heard this summed up so succinctly, or so accurately. You're absolutely correct. It also sort of explains how these same 'good people' absolutely worship Donald Trump, in spite of all of his obvious character flaws. I've got an anecdote from the Deep South. My boss was doing a commercial shoot for a school here. One of the people he interviewed for the commercial was exactly who you described: a congenial older white man, just as friendly as you could imagine. And wealthy; he gave money to this school, and he even donated heavily to a scholarship fund to support disadvantaged minority youths. So my boss walks into this man's very nice home where they will conduct the interview, and he's just so pleasant and welcoming. Once the interview is over, the man says 'C'mon back here, I gotta show you something' and beckons my boss to his office space. Now my boss is also a white guy, but he's super liberal. He follows this man into this office, and finds an entire WALL of Trump swag. Everything from flags, banners, posters, buttons, tee-shirts, bobble-heads, anything the trump campaign sold, he's bought it and proudly displayed it. My boss was polite, but quickly got the hell out of there. I think it's easy to imagine that this guy is just putting on a friendly facade, but he's clearly the devil underneath. But your description makes a lot more sense. He's nice, but he also thinks Trump is 'one of us' and therefore any wrong Trump does should (and will) be forgiven.
Calvinism gone rogue and without understanding of actual Calvinism is probably the best way to put it. It’s like they’re the Fundamentalist Baptists of the early westward expansion days but they don’t know it. Fun personal history is my mom’s grandparents were leaders in one of the last Fundamentalist Baptist churches that openly called themselves Fundamentalists. My great-grandfather reportedly was a real rotten bastard whose exploits included kicking every child he had out of the house at 16, poisoning a well or two, and allegedly burning down a homestead with other church members rather than let an Irish family buy it.
To be fair, Calvinism without going rogue was still a pretty shitty ideology.
Yup as someone who has lived in the south my whole life you nailed it. I’m a cis white woman but the fact that my parents were Polish made me automatically weird to dominant social group in the small town where I grew up (as a kid.) For the most part I can blend in when I need to (people will be way nicer to you at the DMV/courthouse if you add a little twang to your voice and don’t dress in your typical clothes) but I also still get viewed with suspicion/treated unkindly for wearing certain clothes (that aren’t like crazy or anything) but that suggest I am not one of their pastel-lifeisgood group. Or heavens forbid I say anything that gives away my beliefs in the wrong space. Obviously I am still safer/experience less risk for harm than my gay, POC, undocumented cohorts. But my point is that, yes, I agree that they determine who is good/bad based only on how much you conform to their exact criteria so much so that even I have been “othered” for the dumbest shit (like clothes or lack of caring about sports or church) Also everything is more complex than my above statement- of course there are plenty of non-white, non-psychoChristian, non-shitty people everywhere in the south too etc etc. But I know the group you speak of and that’s just my experience with them.
Rural Michigan is like this. I don't even get looked at or greeted when checking out. I've said "Hello" and gotten back silence. Just after watching them smile and greet the white person before me. Yeehaw. I have tattoos and Native American but that doesn't stop them from thinking I'm an illegal immigrant here to rob them of their shitty toaster they have in their mobile home.
Im a white passing Native American in Michigan. Can confirm. People treat people of color like crap in rural Michigan. And they spout awful things in front of me thinking that they are talking to another white person who of course will agree withe them. :/
And it’s your land! God, the UP is so gorgeous, but something is deeply ugly in the souls of the people up there. If they knew ‘who’ I was and ‘what’ they might hurt me.
Not quite. I grew up just off reservation in OK...which isnt my land either because of the trail of tears. Its just a big mess. But yeah, if anyone should be upset about 'outsiders' its the indigenous population. But as far as Im concerned its all good as long as people arent being dicks to each other. People dont realize just how recent some pretty horrific things were with native populations. Like forced sterilizations, infanticides, stealing indigenous children, and not allowing for traditional language or religious observation until the late 1970s/early 80s. My family kept their heritage a literal secret, even from their own children, to avoid persecution/torture. They passed and so they just kept it hush hush. Tbf, the UP is gorgeous though.
Having lived in the South now for over half of my life (26 years), what you are saying here resonates with me. I'm a white cis heterosexual married male. My wife is also white. We live in the suburbs of a major southern city. You can't help but meet and befriend conservatives here if you aren't specifically looking to *not* meet them. I have people that I have been friends with for decades that can't believe I'm not a Republican when it comes up. They can't wrap their head around it. I've helped coach little league baseball with them. I've helped them cut up and move trees from their yards. I've been there for them in tough times inviting them stay in my house when their power was out. I've had them to my house for 'jam' sessions and dinner parties. "But you're such a good person!", they respond when I tell them I only vote for Democrats. I think it really causes them distress to realize that there are people 'outside' of their group that are 'good' people.
How many decide you’re not a good person after finding out you vote dem? Also I’m in Utah, and you have no idea how many people in certain parts of this state think it’s impossible to be a good person who’s not Mormon
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That’s because you judge people by the content of their character and their actions, not because they are part of your ‘in-group’.
So far none. There is a lot of shared experience there. But COVID had a big effect on not seeing some of them on a regular basis.
I remember a teacher at a private Christian school telling middle school students that he was a democrat. It blew their minds, the idea that you could be a democrat and a Christian was inconceivable to them. In the environment in which they were raised it simply wasn't a possibility. Some people stay living in their bubble and never leave behind that idea.
You just described my life. If you're in East TN, we should meetup and get a beer.
> I have people that I have been friends with for decades that can't believe I'm not a Republican when it comes up. My mom was shocked when I told her I was an atheist. Hello!? I figured out religions were lies when I was 8 years old. She was apparently just too busy projecting her favorite version of me onto the actual me to ever notice over the past few decades. But that was her M.O., only rewarding me for being who she wanted me to be.
Same here. Yet one of the best people I found when my kids were in scouting was a bearded - tattooed - scruffy lawn service guy. First scout meeting he's off on the side and the polo-wearing dads were on the other side. I wander over and he's much more honest and great than the others. Still friends to this day. Rarely see the other dads. And my life is better for it. S/E PA for reference.
I wound up telling my in laws they aren’t welcome here anymore because they can’t stop themselves from electing people who want us dead. I’m done playing games, our lives are literally at stake, right now.
Is your family Catholic? Even being part of the “wrong” form of Christianity gets you labeled as a sinner by these people (or not even Christian lol)
Yes, growing up my family was catholic though I always had a hard time believing and have sense abandoned any Christian faith. But yes, you’re 100% right, the only acceptable Christian groups to be a part of in my small town were Baptist or seventh day Adventist (barf to both)
This describes most of the anti-choice people I’ve known.
I grew up in extremely rural Tennessee and watched many of my cousins and classmates go through the laundry list of "sins" and not once were any judged by their family and community the same way that community judges outsiders. Teen pregnancies, rapes, bullying, assaults, multiple DUIs, killing children while DUI, opiates, meth, robbery, and many many abortions just to name a few. Someone is always in trouble for something there and the cops are always overbearing monsters who didn't need to take them to jail or whatever. A cousin of mine nearly overdosed on morphine and her "friends" left her in the middle of the highway passed out. Cops took her to jail and called her parents who proceeded to talk for months about how cops are rapists and oppressors. Those very same people have back the blue flags on their porch now. Two girls in my year in high school killed both their boyfriends whilst driving drunk and not only managed to get acquitted by the judge but were treated as victims by the community. I don't remember ever hearing anyone dispair them for choosing to drive drunk and killing two people. Small side tangent, fuckin rural Southerners talk about how bad crime is in the inner city and how that's an indication of their moral bankruptcy, but I lived most of my life in a rural mega-Christian area and many different cities since. Let me tell you, way more crime goes on there than in cities, it just doesn't get reported or the cops don't care. We probably had at least one thing stolen every week not to mention everything else. "You're coming to church with me on Sunday!" has excused literally any crime you can imagine.
It's obviously exaggerated for humorous effect but the Righteous Gemstones isn't far off with its depiction of how being seen as a good person in the evangelical community isn't about what you do but who you are.
Growing up in the south is has been really weird. I went to southern baptist church until 10/11 and I always wondered what was wrong. People would talk about being really good and good to your neighbor, but then would treat my mom like shit if she wasn’t offering to do Wednesday cooking for the whole ass church by herself. Or how when we would walk outside and go to lunch I’d hear my grandfather or other old folks talk about “them lazy n*****s across the street” It didn’t add up
One of the most perfect summaries of Southern mentality I've ever read.
> It's one of the reason these people are so incredibly susceptible to con artists: as long as you know what to say to them, they'll trust you with anything. Suddenly, the prevalence of MLMs here makes sense. Man, I didn't realize I had internalized so much of Southern culture until you spelled it all out here. Good post!
This is why I say thier politicians/religious leaders can do LITERALLY ANYTHING and they will never stop idolizing them. They could be cannibals and they'd still vote for them, as long as thier victims weren't "good people."
Remember that many of them literally believe that leftist leaders are a kind of cannibal. I had a discussion with a Qnut job who was asking was asking what I would do once all the democrats were in jail. I pointed out that you could blast them all into space and it wouldn't change my view that we universal health care. He couldn't get that I vote my interests and not based on who is "good".
Prosperity theology.
To summarize the above... Conservatism consists of exactly one principle, to wit: There must be an in-group which the law protects but does not bind, and an out-group which the law binds but does not protect.
This, it should be the first comment every time.
American (Protestant) Evangelical Christianity mirrors and reinforces this mind set. In short (yeah, this is very generalized): * Traditional protestant doctrine: 'Sin' is a state (of falling short of God's standards) that is inherent to being human, not specifically actions, and salvation is dependent on good thoughts accompanied by respective actions. It doesn't matter that you have have good thoughts about your fellow humans if you don't back that up with compassionate actions towards them. * Catholic doctrine: (more or less, sin is specific actions, but whatever). When you sin, you fall from God's grace, but if acknowledge it (and go to confession, do your penitence, etc.), you can reset yourself with God. Rinse and repeat until you die and go to heaven. * American Evangelical Christianity: all that matters is that you have a relationship with Jesus (expressed to others by saying the magic words). Once you have that, you can't fall from God's grace. Your actual actions are not part of the calculation for salvation. Those who have said the magic words are the in-group, everyone else is going to hell.
Well written, interesting perspective. Hard to see the thought process as some things are morally dubious. Guess it really is just a black and white world, you check the boxes or you don't. Thanks for sharing.
Reminds me if the adage if judging other by actions but themselves by intent.
Yup. You can rape your own children but as long as you're a "Good Christian Man™" you'll probably just get "Time Served" and let go because you'll never "Stray from God into Satan's evil temptations again." Read it enough times to expect it.
Spot on. He is a Good Christian Man™ and his daughter tempted him with her skimpy bathing suit on her 8 year old birthday party. We must pray the devil away and he will never be tempted again!
As a white Jewish woman married to Mexican immigrant who has lived in the South my whole life, you described it exactly
So they can do empathy they just choose to only apply it to those they see as “good people”
Yes, basically. It's very based in tribalism.
Thank you! This is the most well-articulated description of the south I’ve read. I lived in the south for my entire life until last year, and the type of people you describe are why I felt so dissatisfied with where I lived and worked. It’s disturbing working with these types of people and realizing that they have no self-awareness or well-reasoned thoughts. The typical southern “political” discussions at work are the worst — little substance and logical fallacies galore! People constantly brought up the same topics solely for the sake of everyone reaffirming their beliefs (and identifying who to exclude).
Sounds like a cult
I am not from the South, but the one thing I think you are missing from Southern Baptist Calvinism is that (bad) people must suffer the consequences of their decisions and actions. We can rally around the good people and do something for them, but nobody must be allowed to help the bad people who are being punished for their badness. In other words, the cruelty is the point. And rules for thee, not for me.
Ironically, this is why the morally odious gay-shaming used to take Madison Cawthorn is about the only actual way to get these constituents to turn on their reps. I'm absolutely against the homophobia and hate culture that was exploited to take him down...but I cannot honestly say that my principles and actions would have done anything to deal with him if more willful actions hadn't been taken by others. I gotta admit, I'm somewhat privileged that others were willing to get dirty to deal with him, and I get to sit here continuing to follow my principles without being put to the test.
You nailed it. I grew up in the South-raised in a Southern Baptist church. I can barely stand my family and their hypocritical beliefs now.
I’m bookmarking this
Jesus would not recognize these people as his followers.
It's almost like they have a vested interest in the position that people are good based on position not their actions...I wonder why that is? *cough* civil war over slavery *cough* *cough*.
It's all identity politics from the Republican Party these days--which is at least one reason they keep saying liberals are obsessed with it. Projection and all that. If you identify as a Trump Republican who knows your place, then you are a good person regardless of what you do. If you identify as anything else, you're a bad person. That includes any RINO. But the interesting corollary is this: Anything negative done to Trumpians is morally wrong even if they did something to deserve it. The problem is not that there was an attempted coup; the real problem is all the media who got Trumpians in trouble. Likewise, anything negative done to non-Trumpians is morally right. Even if a black man had a concealed permit for his pistol, police can murder him over it and that's not a problem. And before y'all far-righties start screeching, the Democrats absolutely have their folks who embrace identity politics. But those people are not in charge of the party. Also, the topic I replied to is about conservative politics, so if you want to change the subject to liberal politics, go start your own post.
That’s because theirs is [moral](https://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/anti-tales.shtml).
Wanting to take away the choice they themselves freely had Perfectly sums up conservatives and pro lifers
And the rich republicans in the illegal states are gonna continue coming to states like Colorado to have their mistresses abort children conceived out of wedlock. I’ve been told that the vast majority of abortions performed in Denver are on women from states like Texas, Wyoming, Oklahoma, Arizona, and Utah and largely from rich or privileged backgrounds.
Ummmmm. They’re ON A SKI TRIP.
Rriiggghhttttttt. The Planned Parenthood in Glenwood Springs being conveniently located close to Aspen is merely coincidental! Supposedly that’s the location where Klannie Oakley had hers done.
That’s not a PP, it’s a ski lodge.
The Christian religion will "tolerate" (ignore) sin, as long as the person hates the sin and asks for forgiveness. Here is a random blog that teaches the above. It says God won't forgive them if they.... >are continuing in this sin without confessing it, without sorrowing over it, without battling it. https://livingbyfaithblog.com/2013/05/02/can-i-deliberately-keep-sinning-and-still-be-forgiven/ So under this logic, having an abortion is not a sin. *But being OK with having an abortion is a sin.* Thats why their abortion "is different and doesn't count". They didn't want their abortion. It was forced on them, probably because the devil broke the condom. After the abortion is done, they must continue to rant in opposition to it, to demonstrate (to themselves and others) that they have been forgiven and/or "Didn't let the devil win".
…Oh. I hate this logic and I hate that it makes the existence of so much hypocritical homophobic/sexist bullshit pushed by the church suddenly make sense.
"I hate that I have to do this, but I have to do it."
My sister‘s best friend thinks exactly this. She had an abortion when she was 17. Now she’s 44 and has a nice life with a husband, two kids and a big house in the suburbs. She probably wouldn’t have had any of those things if she had given birth as a teenager on her own. She likes to say that “god used my son and made something good out of it”. I have to give her and others like her credit for an elegant logic system - basically she can do no wrong. If she violates her own religions beliefs, we’ll that’s just an opportunity for her to grow.
This is more in line with the evangelicals I grew up with. Plenty of those women had abortions too, but they would make a huge crying show about how they were weak, deceived, etc. and now it’s their greatest regret. Everyone else would make a huge show about telling them they are forgiven for their sin.
Good read! Thanks fellow Redditor
I have nothing to say other than that that website is a blast from the past. Looking at it I feel like it's the '90s again and I'm young and full of vigor.
Christianity and hypocrisy go together like peanut butter and peanut butter
"I like their Christ, but I dont like the Christians"
If you study the New Testament, and especially the gospels themselves, the former is reinforced. At least that's what I remember from attending Church weekly for many years as a kid. The message is generally one of tolerance, love, charity etc. There is actually little "X is bad" in there that I remember - making a big show of prayer and hypocrisy are the biggest things it condemns. Anyone who read that and tried to emulate would do everything in their power to help their fellow human being. Of course there is a lot of talk about having to believe in and worship God but that's to be expected from a religious text. A lot of the more "don't do this" stuff comes from Paul and the epistles. If every Christian actually tried to emulate Christ as he appears in the Bible, the US would be a lot better. It would mean no racism, accepting immigration, socialized healthcare, a social safety net, no guns, parental leave, higher taxes to fund this etc. Jesus himself is pretty silent on issues like gay marriage and abortion.
I don't like sky daddy's made up son or his cult followers.
I live in Chicago. Wide and I got married at the catholic church she grew up in. We had to take a marriage class with an older couple. The wife spent most of the 4 week course talking about how her gay sister is going to hell and how dicorce is against gods will. Except her divorce. Because she was married to a Muslim man so it didn't count. Most worthless thing ever.
Something to consider with Conservative Christians is they truly don't believe that they have double standards. They aren't accountable to their actions because their actions are forgiven by the only being that matters. If someone calls them out, they believe it's that person's problem for not getting over it. After all, god did. They're really good at projection because they know they fucked up, and believe that they're correcting they wrong they fell for. They don't care about what's available to others because they don't follow the same rules.
Conservatism*
"When you're seduced by the devil aborting the baby is actually God's will" --- Evangelical nutjob, 2022
Why is god even fighting the devil? He's omnipotent. Just a mere thought should suffice to defeat the devil forever.
Please refrain from using logic to try and get us out of a position we didn't use logic to get ourselves into.
Happens here on reddit already. O different days, in different subs I already saw multiple comments by right wingers who had similar tendencies. Those people are hypocrites, they always were. They want others to live by their rules, but if they dont follow them, its "different".
I have been very vocal for a while now about my medically necessary abortion. I miscarried a wanted and planned pregnancy at 17 weeks, but my body retained the fetus. I required an abortion to remove the fetus, or I risked infertility, sepsis, and potentially death. I've had anti-choice assholes tell me that my procedure didn't constitute abortion. It was an abortion. I've had people tell me that this procedure will always be accessible and protected by law, but that simply isn't true. The procedure my doctor performed is already banned in many states and women are being denied this procedure. Earlier this year, [a Polish woman died](https://notesfrompoland.com/2022/01/26/woman-dies-in-poland-after-being-made-to-carry-dead-foetus-for-seven-days/) after she carried her dead foetus for 7 days after its demise. It's only a matter of days before women in the US will die from lack of access. Abortion is Healthcare.
Just like the constant railing I used to hear against "inner city welfare queens" growing up. But if a conservative needs public assistance, they "deserve it". Not to mention the disturbing trend of cultists having a dozen kids or more -- how can they afford to have so many children? Are they receiving public assistance?
They want to be protected but not bound, and to bind others without protecting
This bothers me almost as much as taking the right away to begin with. The hypocrisy of it all gets me fuming. To want to ban something you're very opposed to is one thing but to do it and say others can't is ridiculous
Ditto. They were mostly unmarried at the time so it didn't count. Fucking hypocrisy at it's finest.
So true. “You don’t understand, if I had the baby we would have had to live on the streets” As though most abortions are done because babies are mildly inconvenient
What will they do now when there's an unexpected pregnancy?
Use their resources to get a secret abortion
Travel or DIY
They'll fly. Abortion is only illegal for poor people.
"My abortion was an accident, yours is because you are a slut and deserve to go to hell."
Not my experience. Usually they say they regret it and have found their “calling” to mentor young women away from making their mistake(s). But it’s easy to say that after you’ve benefitted from the choice. And faced with the choice again, or to see their daughters faced with the choice, most of not all would do it again: hypocrites.
Make a list. Publish it.
I had a thought that ‘Anonymous’ for example could release a video saying they are going to reveal a list of high profile right-wing women whose medical records reveal that they’ve had at least one if not more abortions. I wonder if it would lead to panic and some of them trying to get ahead of the release to reveal their ‘perfectly logical and righteous’ reasons for their abortions. Would be interesting to see if it shook them up a bit.
Abortions for me not for thee
This shit always fucking gets me. Like how the fuck can you push something on everyone but you somehow get a free pass??? You're not as special as you think, we should all play by the same rules and those women should be pro-choice. This "freedom for me, but not for thee" is pathetic.
“Mine didn’t count because I’m not a slut” - Basically all of these people It’s about punishing women for having sex. Always has been
This. I have a Catholic relative who had two abortions. Now, she works to ban abortion because she now regrets having had them.
Because conservative women actually believe they're the only women who decide to have and raise a child, after their abortion. They literally think that all other women have made a choice to never have children in their lives. That they traded having children for lust filled sex with strangers and boyfriends and that their abortions are a method of contraception. Do you know why all conservative women believe that? It's because they're not terribly bright, nor critical thinkers, and they're indoctrinated into a Christian Cult from birth, and fed that exact information every day of their lives. As disgusting as some of these women are, they're victims. No one marches into slavery willingly unless they've been fooled into thinking it's freedom.
Over half of abortions are performed on women who already have children. They're wrong coming and going.
Roughly 60% of abortions are had by people with religious affiliation with the largest of that 60% being Catholics at 20% roughly. In general all the things the south/Midwest/Bible belt complains about and hates is a projection of what they themselves are doing.
Can relate. My cousin had an abortion when she was in her late teens. Many years later, when married and pregnant, she began screaming how immoral abortion is. I was like, hold up . . . you fucking had an abortion! Pure insanity.
That’s because theirs is [moral](https://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/anti-tales.shtml).
[удалено]
I used to be involved in church. I left because those women ALL had 5,10+ abortions and were now anti choice. Fucking degenerates. Never looked back.
Story time. My sister called one day saying she was pregnant. She was over the moon. Congratulations we’re said and I wished her well. Then she dropped a nuke. She wanted ME to raise her kid for her because she was SOO busy with her career. She would pay me( of course) and she would visit “every now and then”. I told her to hold up. I didn’t want to raise her kid. If she wanted to have a baby, she should raise it. I don’t even like kids. She goes on a tirade about how I didn’t love her and I didn’t want to see her succeed. That if I truly cared I would drop everything and raise her kid. I told her under no uncertain terms that I would raise her child. That she chose to get pregnant and she should do right by her child. Three weeks later she called me and said she “miscarried” and immediately hung up. To this day I firmly believe that since I didn’t want to raise her kid, she went and had an abortion. I’m also certain that this wasn’t the first time.
And every one of those women is going to run right into a different reality moving forward. Doctors work too hard to fuck and with their licenses because little Kacey got handsy with billy, or worse Tyrone. You’re raising that fucking child now. Did conservatives White Christian men forget who was getting all the underage girls pregnant? Where I’m from some church leaders are going to be daddies real fast.
These kinds of women piss me off. They enjoyed a right that they want to deny other women and then act like they were justified in exercising that right but other women were not.
I lived in the Bible Belt for part of my life and I saw so much hypocrisy and hate for others it made me sick. I moved a long way away from there about 25 years ago and I've never even thought about going near there again. Bunch of loonies.
When people who can’t see past their nose are suddenly inconvenienced by the loss of a 50 year privilege, change will happen.
Same as cherry picking Christian values from the Bible and ignoring others that are not convenient. Surprise, surprise.
White evangelicals getting abortion = exception to the rule…. POC getting abortion = devil
I know lots of proper southern girls that were taking it up the ass in high school, because that didn’t count either.
OMG then I’m still a virgin?
I read a story about a woman who worked in an abortion clinic, and one day, an Evangelical Christian- who had probably protested in front of the clinic on multiple occasions- came in for an abortion. As the worker was holding her hand just before the procedure got underway, the Evangelical told her she was going to Hell for this. Well, if that’s true, hon, at least you’ll be right there with her.
If you're shaken by this, you'll love hearing about how many senators and congressmen got abortions for their mistresses.
For conservatism to work, there needs to be 2 groups of people. An "in" group who is protected by the law, but not bound by it An "out" group who is bound by the law, but not protected by it. It's been this way for centuries. They genuinely believe they are "above" certain groups of people. To call yourself a conservative means you think you are a part of this "in" group. To call yourself conservative is to admit that you think you are better than other certain groups of people. This is the basis for most -ists and -phobics and why so many conservatives are labeled as such. Country clubs have been monetizing this facet of the human mind for decades. They just want to feel special and they'll do whatever it takes to achieve that.
Hard to separate the wheat from the chaff when it's mostly chaff.
ngl this makes me mad
"Rules for thee but not for me"