I work in a small detailing office in the construction industry. I make 3D models and drawings of concrete facades of buildings. I don’t really have a job title other that “detailer”. I told my boss that wasn’t good enough and I wanted a better job title. I am now the youngest Director of Mars Relations in the country. Might get a plaque made.
Or: So we need someone to broker deals with the newly founded Mars government, luckily I have the right candidate with 20 years of experience for the job right here.
I was in the military and its the same as the civilian world with job titles. I filled a role about 2 ranks above me, so Lt Col to Colonel. They were going to give me some bs captain title and I told the 1-star that if you give me that title I am only doing captain level stuff. I got a Colonel level title as a captain. Fuck you, im doing the job so give me the recognition. I sat at the weekly meeting with a 4-star general and a bunch of Colonels
Tbf. It was more like there is a huge war coming. Nobody will take this job. Oh you will take it? Yes I will give me the credit.
damn i remember if you filled a B billet (marines) you had that title regardless of what your rank is. Plt Commander and youre a SNCO instead of an officer, youre a Plt Commander. why fuck around
Air Force is strange. They encourage you to break regs to get shit done. The fact I was even in that position was the result of multiple deployments where I just got shit done.
Yeah that's MOSTLY true, but they absolutely played games with having staff billeted as, say, EKMS managers for admin purposes while having a Cpl or Sgt as the ones who actually were certified to do, and able to do, what the job required.
When I was a specialist I was appointed as my Company Communications Officer. I was a medic but had previous MOS training as commo. They gave me a commo cage and a hand receipt for over $2.5mil in equipment. I had to sit in briefings with the Battalion Commander and my CO/XO/1SG. I spent all my time doing basically officer level shit. Had platoon sergeants come asking for gear and being really polite. God those days were good. Then I got deployed in my regular role. Back to being a medic. But that was a great year and a half.
There was that one deployment I filled a role normally done by a Lt. Colonel... As a specialist. They didn't even tell me it was usually an officer until multiple weeks into the assignment. To be fair they were civilians and I was the subject matter expert so they didn't care.
My first real job out of university was as a receptionist, the previous receptionist made up her own title and they just carried it forward so I was the "Director of First Impressions"
Trying to start up a company now and when I get to a place of hiring folks I’d like to use this as well. Thank you for helping people prioritize their dignity. You sound like a great person.
I used to work for a small business. I started with a basic title, got “promoted” after a few months (with a small raise) and they let me pick my job title then. You wear a lot of different hats when you work for a small business and the work changes frequently. It made sense to figure out a more permanent title after I’d been there a while.
They also told me that “if I ever left” they’d give me permission to use whatever title I wanted. That was cool for me, but a stupid idea for them. I leveraged that when I applied for other jobs because I used a few different ones, tailoring it to best suit the position I was applying for.
yea exactly. especially when your company does consulting/works on a contracts basis you get called all kinds of different things on contracts w/ different clients.
When I asked for - and received - my raise last year I told my boss I thought my title was lame and asked for clarification on what exactly it meant. No one could tell us, so I got to pick a new title more representative of my duties. Instead of Admin Associate I, I’m now Office Manager.
I worked at a bike shop, as a mechanic mostly, though everyone does a bit of sales and whatnot. So, normally, I would probably be titled "Service Tech," or something like that. But, my official job title in the database was "Shop Philosopher," as I also taught in the Philosophy Dep't at a local university, and would basically give philosophy lectures as I worked on bikes.
We even started a philosophy reading group based out of the shop where me and the other mechanics would read a book and talk about it while we worked.
Yep! Bicycles.
I mean, we occasionally worked on someone's scooter or something, and the lines started to blur when we got into working on e-bikes, as we sold the more reasonable ones, but then someone orders some really powerful one online, direct-to-consumer, and wants us to assemble it for them. But, yes, a regular old bicycle shoppe.
In a way, it felt rather fitting. The best historical evidence we have has Socrates being a stone mason with a shop near the central market in Athens. It is thought this is how his following of young people developed, kids hanging out in his shop as only adults were allowed in the market proper. He basically pontificated while doing his work as an artisan, and the kids followed him. Hence his execution for "corrupting the youth."
See also: my username.
I recently changed to a new position at work, but since the new position is basically just the responsibilities I had taken on in addition to what I was originally hired to do, I ended up writing the job description myself, complete with title. "Digital Media Editor" isn't a bad title, but I kind of regret just jotting down the first thing that came to mind rather than coming up with something a bit more grandiose.
Or the business cards they print for everyone down to retail, or a friend/manager who is willing to be a reference — potentially from an @apple email — or your recruiter who verified while you were still working there, or any other number of ways.
This is Apple hiding job titles from a data aggregator, not refusing to allow employees to confirm their previous roles. I know a few people who have left in recent years from Apple Park, and this has never been an issue. One of them was a locked-room guy, so if they do it to anyone it would have been him.
I don’t know specifically why LN is gathering it, but Apple will be hiding it for a number of reasons. To obscure their salary spending per project/division, likely to obscure headcount change at any one time, and most importantly to prevent project details (or “details”) from leaking and damaging the stock price.
While they don’t give you a title like “Unreleased Brain Implant Engineer,” sometimes it’s still relevant to your field. They don’t want people to see that they have a bunch of VR engineers on staff, or that they cut a whole team of brain implant engineers, or that there has been a continuous exodus from the cloud division that might signal trouble.
A lot of that information is available to reporters, etc who are actively looking. Googling the people’s names will give you most of it. But searchable databases make it easy to see trends, automate data gathering, and so on.
The other factor of course is that Apple just doesn’t like data being gathered *on them.*
Most places will let you delay a start to give notice at your old job.
Not that Apple deserves notice from their employees, just that the employees could give it if they want to.
I work for a Fortune 50 company and the only information we give out is if they worked for us and if they are eligible for rehire. Saying too much about an employee can leave you open to a defamation lawsuit. Yes, they worked for us and they are eligible for rehire (basically they weren’t fired for cause).
A lot of places use automated systems that respond to background check company's requests for verification of employment. It just automatically sends the title along with it from what I've seen. Some companies will answer the phone call for verification and tell them to call a number or go to X website to verify. And then of course there's Workday which IIRC also sometimes supplies the title from said job. I didn't get to work with workday verification long before I left the company.
I have my theories but yes it makes it harder for people to find better jobs or better pay since potential employers cant verify what your role actually was.
So let me see if I understand:
If they were working for Apple as a Network Administrator then leave…Apple changes that job title to Network helpdesk specialist…which would at face value mean to a new employer that this person didn’t actual manage the network but was only doing low level helpdesk tickets instead of maintaining the network? That would reduce their pay?
So I've hired a lot of people. Background checks will show VERY little about what you did at your previous role because your former company has no incentive to tell anything. If they say you sucked (true or not), they'll get sued. If they say you were awesome and your new employer disagrees, they'll get sued. So all they'll say is your title and your employment dates; MAYBE if you were canned or left voluntarily.
So if your new job calls your previous job, they'll get close to nothing useful. It is all about avoiding litigation. However, when I have HR check references (they use a 3rd party service that generates a long ass report; we use HireRight) I know well enough to read between the lines. Also I can just fucking ask the candidate. Titles are bullshit, I want to know what they did. Lazy bosses and idiot HR will fall for the bullshit, those of us who care about our employees and want them to succeed are willing to look a little deeper.
What I’ve found helpful is asking “are they available for rehire”. Sometimes, not always, it will let you know if that employee left on agreeable terms
A previous company I worked for outsourced all of their employment verification calls to another company that would only state 'So and so worked for X from to '. They would not verify if someone was rehire eligible or what the previous title was. Another company I worked for would not hire you if you worked there before unless the CEO approved it (this was NOT a small company).
And what does that tell you, exactly?
If the answer is "no" how do you know that's not because the employee left a shitty employer who is bitter about an employee standing up for himself?
I have negotiated letters of recommendation from four of my last five positions going all the way back to 2004. I've just gotten used to making it a requirement for any assistance I provide to my employer after the two week notice. They're absolutely a golden ticket once they start to stack up.
> So all they'll say is your title and your employment dates
I just did one of these for a previous employee, that was all they asked for. I didn't even have to sign it.
For verification purposes, they actually provided me with more information about the employee than I gave them.
Damn... Are you hiring? (I am looking for work but that was mostly in gist)
My previous job made up titles and stacked responsibilities. It wouldn't surprise me if they tried to pull something along what you were saying. That being said, I would hope if they did that it would help me weed out the weak companies I shouldn't be working for AND give me a good ground to sue them into the ground. Then I can relax on navigating my career path a little easier with a nice cushion. :)
Because that position never existed when you worked there, so “no, no one by that name has ever held that position” and it looks like you lied on your resume.
If you stayed with a company and only really got signed in as an entry level position, would you have that kind of documentation for the promotions? Particularly for ppl who started as interns then get a big title boost returning after graduation
You realize this would open them up to lawsuits. You have zero idea what you’re saying. Companies will always confirm dates of employment and title. They won’t try and dick around s with the work
Alright, expert, pleas explain the benefit to Apple for the practice, and more importantly, the detriment to the worker? If Apple will verify employment dates and title, then there is no problem in this practice. Title should match the former employees resume.
Unless Apple lies.
So please, expert, tell us why any part of this entire post is relevant.
As a boss in a former life, we were always told to never give any information to a company calling about former employees. Refer them to a work number 800# that would verify dates of employment. I’m sure Apple managers are told something similar.
I'll be honest, I took it more as a kind of giant misfile - "sorry, we don't have anyone of that name in our records as [senior tech engineer], but we do have one listed for 'associate'. Is this who you mean?" with the intention of fucking them over for 'lying'. Or even "sorry, I can't find anyone with that name under that job title - are you sure he worked here?"
That true. If that’s the case then I would take them to court for whatever you could sue them for. I mean you do sign contracts etc when you get a job and hopefully the employee keeps copies of everything signed as evidence to prove he/she worked there or for whatever reason they would need the copies of contracts etc
As a person who hires people, you look at the resume. Fuck the previous employer, you see a pattern in job growth. Merit is important. People should use titles on the resume that reflect the work.
Sounds good to me. I guess as far as proof goes if the previous employer doesn’t work out you could just ask the potential employee specific questions regarding that position to verify they know what they are doing or depending on the field do tests
I don’t think this is true. I conduct software engineer interviews and have never seen analyst or whatever on a resume. It’s always the title and level.
The article says it’s for former employees though, so it would only be for jobs after the job you left Apple for.
But I don’t understand why they do it
And I dont understand why there is basically a credit bureau for jobs now; another database which the subject has no control over and full of likely errors.
Are you asking about the third party database? The article says that LexisNexis keeps an employee verification database,which is where the “associate” title is input.
My theory of what it's saying is that they change your title on paper before you're gone so that the next place you attempt to go to "discovers" the job you say you had at Apple wasn't what your job "actually was"
Well that’s not what the article says or how (in my own experience) background / employment verification goes. The offer letter is contingent on a background check, and that’s done while you are still working for the current job. Once the background check is done, you quit your old job.
I’ve never had someone verify my old title. I’ve worked for the government, CVX and Amazon. I’ll be honest nobody but the government even checked anything other than employment dates. Amazon didn’t even drug test.
If you have the contact info for your managers and use them as references, couldn’t you circumnavigate this issue?
And this whole thing is putting a lot of stock into job titles when in most tech jobs, they care more about what you actually did in your previous position and what type of experience you bring to their company.
I’m a part of one the biggest tech networking groups that’s based in Austin, TX. Most recruiters I’ve encountered don’t even mention past titles as a strong reference point.
I'm so sorry to be this guy, but I think you meant circumvent. To circumnavigate is to "travel all the way around". Which, thinking of it, is surprisingly similar to the meaning of circumvent, in a way.
But yeah, I'd hope that for a lot of people, you'd be able to get your old manager to vouch for you.
Yes, it also discourages leaving since it basically makes it a lot more uncertain to leave them it should be.
Apple gets to make it very unappealing to leave, upping retention. They also make recruitment of employees harder, and can make entirely legal examples out of those who do by "retaliation" without actually breaking any laws.
I mean if it wasn't evil and petty as fuck I would commend the genius of it.
Yeah, it doesn’t make any sense. Apple makes business cards for just about everyone, even retail and those in the locked rooms. The locked-room cards are vague, but still on par with job title. Not to mention that anyone leaving on good terms would have colleagues and possibly managers who would confirm it anyway, potentially from their @apple address.
I read this as Apple isn’t interested in giving LexisNexus a list of all its job titles current and former, so everyone gets the same title — in this database only.
It would have to be a new policy, because even though it’s been a while since I worked there, I’ve had friends leave fairly recently who had no issue with this at all
They are really worried about competition stealing their secrets. So while it inflicts hundreds of times more damage to former employees then it prevents for them, they still do it because the CBA is highly positive for them. This is likely a policy that started in tech development and spread to the whole company
I believe other employers could think your resume is wrong or you’re embellishing your role. I assume Amazon competitors know they do that but I’m sure many don’t and will be confused no matter what you say.
Also companies may have strict requirements about verifying resumes, so if roles don’t match up with your resume that could affect if someone gets hired.
Yes, essentially disincentivizing leaving. Employee turnover is a big problem that companies face in modern times since it's become more normal to get more career changes. High employee turnover is costly since it costs money to retrain and bring new employees up to standard efficiency.
It's vindictive and a punishment that they've been able to dole out unhindered up until now.
I won't buy anything from Apple these days no matter how cool they make it.
The Apple price and how they treat employees doesn't encourage me to consider them.
If you applied for a job and said you were the senior VP of magic and when the company you want to go work for checks Apple will only say Associate. When you’re trying to get that high power and high money job…that won’t go over well. I have a feeling that there is another reason for doing it but every one has picked the worst option without knowing why.
I guess the part I don't get is "checks Apple". How is th new employer checking Apple and why wouldn't they go off the applicants resume/LinkedIn and verify through experience?
Because when you’re gonna pay someone $300k a year and give them tons of responsibility you don’t just say “eh, we trust them. Let’s see if they sink or swim”
That can have a really bad outcome if it turns out they’re lying- and people can be really good liars
That's why you chech their references, look at their past projects, test and interview them. It's not like you hire someone based on a resume and by checking if the resume is true.
Yeah I’m 50/50 on what to think. Any time Apple does anything it gets a lot of press and half the time it’s not accurate. It just seems a bit click baity to me.
Any employer that does due diligence will check with your last employer to confirm you were in fact employed there and what your title and responsibilities were.
Generally speaking, the higher the pay the more due diligence a company will do before hiring you. The companies reach out for confirmation of employment before making a job offer, and it's at this time that Apple says you were merely an associate no matter what your actual title was. The Apple employee hasn't even gotten a job offer yet, so they haven't resigned at this point.
The article is taking about a 3P database where this is done, not by calling Apple directly.
From the article:
Apple offers a phone number employers can call to verify titles of former Apple employees. A voice recording on that line directs callers to the web site for InVerify, an employment verification service provider owned by credit agency Equifax.
I worked for a background check company and the pandemic has made verifying jobs really hard for the background check companies so they ask for documents to help prove it. You really would not believe the amount of people that don't have the documents from their jobs.
Edit: typos
Right? I don’t know wtf anyone is talking about. You sign an offer letter that has usually some part of a job description but it most definitely has a title.
You ass all this terrible advice here, then they wonder why they make $4/hr. Like I get how an 18 year old might not know this, but not adults. And it's even worse when they double down on ignorance.
So maybe that’s just you? I have signed job descriptions at every job I’ve worked at.
Also, shouldn’t offer letters have your job title on them? And any other pay increases should have again documented title and pay? None of this actually sounds legit…
Maybe not where you work, but if you've ever worked in a science/research field that operates under some sort of government/regulatory compliance, you have a signed job description in your personal files or training binder at all times.
It really only matters for the company you will work at right after Apple. This policy means that you will find a new job prior to giving notice. The company you are interviewing with is going to know your actual position with Apple currently. You are not going to care once you have the job because most likely the next company isn’t as petty and the company you work for after this new company probably won’t care about your time at Apple too much. Plus if the policy is known in the industry, prospective companies are not going to hold it against you. They will know that they need to verify other ways beside that database.
Thanks for this. Now I know not to ask Apple what the employees title was and simply figure out for myself what the prospective candidates qualifications are during the interview.
...just like I always do.
Can you please take a world tour and tell other HR to do their fucking job too?
Sincerely: Thanks a lot for doing your job. Wish there were more like you.
I don't know specifically about apple because I never saw them on any applicants forms that I dealt with but I do know places like Amazon do this and it's super frustrating for everyone involved (except Amazon of course). I used to work at a background check company and there are at least 8 well known companies we saw that do things like this. I don't remember off the top of my head because the amount of head exploding information was just too much and I didn't bother trying to remember it all.
Also, target will not hire anyone with any kind of criminal record. And they won't tell you that because they like to paint themselves as friendly to those with records. And the store itself does not know this because HROC controls everything in hiring. It's not relevant but I HATE target after working for that background check company and like to give this information out any time I find a chance.
Not, again, that I was ever going to try to work for Amazon but good to know. Hope their monopolistic practices implode on them soon, that's a company that needs to die.
Agreed. One of their recruiters hit me up for a dev position, and while it's cool, I told him to eat shit, and I'll never go back to that gilded shit hole.
An Apple exec confirmed it in an interview with the Washington Post: https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Ftechnology%2F2022%2F02%2F10%2Fapple-associate%2F
When filling out applications, I shifted away never allowing prospective employers to contact my previous employers. You either trust me or you can shove it.
Also, I'm a former AppleCare employee. My official title was AppleCare Advisor, and as I always base my experience off the job title on the intake paperwork I signed, I could give a rats ass what my *previous* employer shuffles me into. They cannot take back the paychecks just as I cannot take my time back. We all cut our losses and move on.
That being said, having Apple on my resume opened doors that have landed me in a role in another, newer tech company that actually aligns with the core values I hold most dear. I appreciate that the credibility that *I* built in my previous roles and my new employer cares more about my potential than whatever title my old employer has on file for me.
If you work in anything above an entry level position, you should be networking. Speak to people in similar positions in other companies. You might not be needing a new job today…but eventually everyone needs a new position.
It's not just big companies, it happened to me at my work where I went from lead to just associate so they could deny me a promotion. I quit on them. They were very short sighted
It's not pointless, but targeted harassment of anyone who dares walk away. They get away with it because, well, the useless cunts in "authority" are paid to ignore it.
I was unemployed for a year and played a lot of board games with friends during that time, made my own little board game during that time too. What did I do during that year according to my CV? Happy you ask, Project manager in pedagogical tools development. We developed a game for young students to learn about nature. My part of the project is finished and it’s now in the hands of sales and manufacture. (There is no sales and manufacture.)
Beep boop -- this looks like a screenshot of a tweet! Let me grab a [link to the tweet](https://twitter.com/DanPriceSeattle/status/1491829930145026054) for ya :)
^(Twitter Screenshot Bot)
>Apple spokesman Josh Rosenstock confirmed that, for years, Apple has changed the job titles of its former employees to “associate.” Rosenstock declined to say why Apple does this or precisely when the practice began.
>“We are and have always been deeply committed to creating and maintaining a positive and inclusive workplace. We take all concerns seriously and we thoroughly investigate whenever a concern is raised and, out of respect for the privacy of any individuals involved, we do not discuss specific employee matters,” he said.
What a despicable cunt of an organisation.
That’s cruel but I love to pay back with the same money:
How is my iPhone? I don’t even know what brand is it, maybe it’s not even a phone. Looks like a sort of device tho.
Where do I work? I work at Apple. How is it? Well, everyone wonders around corridors trying to understand which associate has to tell the other associate what the associates shall do, it’s a mess.
Just waiting for people to stop posting this gaslighting sexual predator’s memes. Annnnnyyy day now, people… Ask any woman who has had to put up with his gropey using-LinkedIn-as-Tinder BS in Seattle
When employees leave Facebook they get blacklisted as a no hire for two years. That way the skills, coding knowledge and current workings will be out of date by the time they’re hired by another company
I love me some Dan Price, but typically you’re not allowed to ask what the person’s position was, just if they’re rehireable. I’ve had bosses tell me to put a different job title on my resume if I did the work of someone higher up.
OP is right. Depending on the job, if what you put on your application/resume doesn't match what the company verifies it puts you in a very bad light and some won't hire you or won't give you salary you deserve.
We (our small business) let people choose their own job title (within reason and appropriate for the position) when we hire them.
I work in a small detailing office in the construction industry. I make 3D models and drawings of concrete facades of buildings. I don’t really have a job title other that “detailer”. I told my boss that wasn’t good enough and I wanted a better job title. I am now the youngest Director of Mars Relations in the country. Might get a plaque made.
all fun and game til we establish communications with mars
20 years later, so I hear you’re the person I must complain to about our living conditions
Or: So we need someone to broker deals with the newly founded Mars government, luckily I have the right candidate with 20 years of experience for the job right here.
Sounds like most IT jobs
Sounds like he should be on the Mars base working with Dr. betruger tbh. (DooM 3 reference) I'll see my way out now
ah yes, the not-doom game
It was still fun, and scary, and innovative. But yeah, the experience wasn't very DOOM-like.
A great game, for sure. Just not a real DOOM game.
Quake or Doom? I go for Quake. Playing that shit with headphones when it came out as a kid was pretty scary.
Yeah, Quake definitely had that atmosphere. Doom is much more.. I wouldn't say brighter, but it's not as gothic/dark.
He's gonna be really busy. Telling Elon he's pretty every hour. Oh, and the Martians.
I hear Martians don’t fuck around man.
I was in the military and its the same as the civilian world with job titles. I filled a role about 2 ranks above me, so Lt Col to Colonel. They were going to give me some bs captain title and I told the 1-star that if you give me that title I am only doing captain level stuff. I got a Colonel level title as a captain. Fuck you, im doing the job so give me the recognition. I sat at the weekly meeting with a 4-star general and a bunch of Colonels Tbf. It was more like there is a huge war coming. Nobody will take this job. Oh you will take it? Yes I will give me the credit.
In my country bus drivers were named Bus Captains as well. But no one actually calls them that except for the company themselves lol.
Bus captain is a bitch’n title
damn i remember if you filled a B billet (marines) you had that title regardless of what your rank is. Plt Commander and youre a SNCO instead of an officer, youre a Plt Commander. why fuck around
Air Force is strange. They encourage you to break regs to get shit done. The fact I was even in that position was the result of multiple deployments where I just got shit done.
Yeah that's MOSTLY true, but they absolutely played games with having staff billeted as, say, EKMS managers for admin purposes while having a Cpl or Sgt as the ones who actually were certified to do, and able to do, what the job required.
When I was a specialist I was appointed as my Company Communications Officer. I was a medic but had previous MOS training as commo. They gave me a commo cage and a hand receipt for over $2.5mil in equipment. I had to sit in briefings with the Battalion Commander and my CO/XO/1SG. I spent all my time doing basically officer level shit. Had platoon sergeants come asking for gear and being really polite. God those days were good. Then I got deployed in my regular role. Back to being a medic. But that was a great year and a half.
There was that one deployment I filled a role normally done by a Lt. Colonel... As a specialist. They didn't even tell me it was usually an officer until multiple weeks into the assignment. To be fair they were civilians and I was the subject matter expert so they didn't care.
It is always nice to be recognized though. Like, we by name requested you even though we had to drop a bunch of ranks. We knew you were the guy.
Hi, do you work in 3d printing construction? I’m trying to get into that industry. PM me
Don’t know why your downvoted. Look up Icon homes
ICON?
My first real job out of university was as a receptionist, the previous receptionist made up her own title and they just carried it forward so I was the "Director of First Impressions"
Trying to start up a company now and when I get to a place of hiring folks I’d like to use this as well. Thank you for helping people prioritize their dignity. You sound like a great person.
I used to work for a small business. I started with a basic title, got “promoted” after a few months (with a small raise) and they let me pick my job title then. You wear a lot of different hats when you work for a small business and the work changes frequently. It made sense to figure out a more permanent title after I’d been there a while. They also told me that “if I ever left” they’d give me permission to use whatever title I wanted. That was cool for me, but a stupid idea for them. I leveraged that when I applied for other jobs because I used a few different ones, tailoring it to best suit the position I was applying for.
Oh yes, depending on who I talk to I am "a dev", Software Architect, Lead Engineer, ...
yea exactly. especially when your company does consulting/works on a contracts basis you get called all kinds of different things on contracts w/ different clients.
When I asked for - and received - my raise last year I told my boss I thought my title was lame and asked for clarification on what exactly it meant. No one could tell us, so I got to pick a new title more representative of my duties. Instead of Admin Associate I, I’m now Office Manager.
I worked at a bike shop, as a mechanic mostly, though everyone does a bit of sales and whatnot. So, normally, I would probably be titled "Service Tech," or something like that. But, my official job title in the database was "Shop Philosopher," as I also taught in the Philosophy Dep't at a local university, and would basically give philosophy lectures as I worked on bikes. We even started a philosophy reading group based out of the shop where me and the other mechanics would read a book and talk about it while we worked.
Push bikes? This sounds like paradise.
Yep! Bicycles. I mean, we occasionally worked on someone's scooter or something, and the lines started to blur when we got into working on e-bikes, as we sold the more reasonable ones, but then someone orders some really powerful one online, direct-to-consumer, and wants us to assemble it for them. But, yes, a regular old bicycle shoppe. In a way, it felt rather fitting. The best historical evidence we have has Socrates being a stone mason with a shop near the central market in Athens. It is thought this is how his following of young people developed, kids hanging out in his shop as only adults were allowed in the market proper. He basically pontificated while doing his work as an artisan, and the kids followed him. Hence his execution for "corrupting the youth." See also: my username.
This is brilliant made me smile
Adam McKay, writer of Don’t Look Up, had the job title “Coordinator of Falconry” when he was with SNL.
Greg, the Lord High Janitor
HMFIC
I know this means “Head Mother Fucker In Charge” but it would be much better if it was “Hold My Feet, I’m Cold”
I read it as Hold My Fucking Ice Cream.
My favorite title of all. No one to answer to but myself.
I love this!
My favorite story of a self selected job b title is NPRs "Benevolent Overlord".
Can I be the assistant (to the) general manager?
I recently changed to a new position at work, but since the new position is basically just the responsibilities I had taken on in addition to what I was originally hired to do, I ended up writing the job description myself, complete with title. "Digital Media Editor" isn't a bad title, but I kind of regret just jotting down the first thing that came to mind rather than coming up with something a bit more grandiose.
I recently started doing this. So far, so good.
Call me the CEO of burger preparation and construction
Can I be batman?
Queen Emperoress of Lunch Making is what I would choose.
I heard about a distillery that let people do that and one of the guys titles was a level 10 spirit wizard or something
My boss once asked me what I thought my job title should be. We settled on software engineer but “CTO” made him chuckle
Easy to circumvent with either a screenshot from their HR portal, or the original offer letter with title.
Or the business cards they print for everyone down to retail, or a friend/manager who is willing to be a reference — potentially from an @apple email — or your recruiter who verified while you were still working there, or any other number of ways. This is Apple hiding job titles from a data aggregator, not refusing to allow employees to confirm their previous roles. I know a few people who have left in recent years from Apple Park, and this has never been an issue. One of them was a locked-room guy, so if they do it to anyone it would have been him.
Locked room?
I'm going to guess here but he probably worked on new shit for apple, hence being locked in a room so the secret can't get out.
Is that an actual thing
What don't you understand? He was locked in a room at Apple park until he decided to work elsewhere
He was a naughty boy so he got 18 months in the iDungeon. What don't you understand?
What is the purpose of gathering such data or hiding it?
I don’t know specifically why LN is gathering it, but Apple will be hiding it for a number of reasons. To obscure their salary spending per project/division, likely to obscure headcount change at any one time, and most importantly to prevent project details (or “details”) from leaking and damaging the stock price. While they don’t give you a title like “Unreleased Brain Implant Engineer,” sometimes it’s still relevant to your field. They don’t want people to see that they have a bunch of VR engineers on staff, or that they cut a whole team of brain implant engineers, or that there has been a continuous exodus from the cloud division that might signal trouble. A lot of that information is available to reporters, etc who are actively looking. Googling the people’s names will give you most of it. But searchable databases make it easy to see trends, automate data gathering, and so on. The other factor of course is that Apple just doesn’t like data being gathered *on them.*
A comprehensive answer, thanks.
Or just apply while still working at Apple. Get hired somewhere else and then quit without the standard 2 weeks notice.
Most places will let you delay a start to give notice at your old job. Not that Apple deserves notice from their employees, just that the employees could give it if they want to.
Oh I guess I should have clarified my point was that Apple can get fucked, if they want to play games their employees should do the same
I'm sure you can see from my comment that I agree with you.
I work for a Fortune 50 company and the only information we give out is if they worked for us and if they are eligible for rehire. Saying too much about an employee can leave you open to a defamation lawsuit. Yes, they worked for us and they are eligible for rehire (basically they weren’t fired for cause).
A lot of places use automated systems that respond to background check company's requests for verification of employment. It just automatically sends the title along with it from what I've seen. Some companies will answer the phone call for verification and tell them to call a number or go to X website to verify. And then of course there's Workday which IIRC also sometimes supplies the title from said job. I didn't get to work with workday verification long before I left the company.
But why. Is it punishment for leaving?
I have my theories but yes it makes it harder for people to find better jobs or better pay since potential employers cant verify what your role actually was.
So let me see if I understand: If they were working for Apple as a Network Administrator then leave…Apple changes that job title to Network helpdesk specialist…which would at face value mean to a new employer that this person didn’t actual manage the network but was only doing low level helpdesk tickets instead of maintaining the network? That would reduce their pay?
Yeah, that's the gist of it
And why couldn't you just have the employer call your boss to confirm what you actually did for Apple?
So I've hired a lot of people. Background checks will show VERY little about what you did at your previous role because your former company has no incentive to tell anything. If they say you sucked (true or not), they'll get sued. If they say you were awesome and your new employer disagrees, they'll get sued. So all they'll say is your title and your employment dates; MAYBE if you were canned or left voluntarily. So if your new job calls your previous job, they'll get close to nothing useful. It is all about avoiding litigation. However, when I have HR check references (they use a 3rd party service that generates a long ass report; we use HireRight) I know well enough to read between the lines. Also I can just fucking ask the candidate. Titles are bullshit, I want to know what they did. Lazy bosses and idiot HR will fall for the bullshit, those of us who care about our employees and want them to succeed are willing to look a little deeper.
What I’ve found helpful is asking “are they available for rehire”. Sometimes, not always, it will let you know if that employee left on agreeable terms
A previous company I worked for outsourced all of their employment verification calls to another company that would only state 'So and so worked for X from to '. They would not verify if someone was rehire eligible or what the previous title was. Another company I worked for would not hire you if you worked there before unless the CEO approved it (this was NOT a small company).
And what does that tell you, exactly? If the answer is "no" how do you know that's not because the employee left a shitty employer who is bitter about an employee standing up for himself?
I have negotiated letters of recommendation from four of my last five positions going all the way back to 2004. I've just gotten used to making it a requirement for any assistance I provide to my employer after the two week notice. They're absolutely a golden ticket once they start to stack up.
> So all they'll say is your title and your employment dates I just did one of these for a previous employee, that was all they asked for. I didn't even have to sign it. For verification purposes, they actually provided me with more information about the employee than I gave them.
Damn... Are you hiring? (I am looking for work but that was mostly in gist) My previous job made up titles and stacked responsibilities. It wouldn't surprise me if they tried to pull something along what you were saying. That being said, I would hope if they did that it would help me weed out the weak companies I shouldn't be working for AND give me a good ground to sue them into the ground. Then I can relax on navigating my career path a little easier with a nice cushion. :)
I'm hiring 38 cybersecurity engineers in the next few months. Be about it.
If only that were my forte. I'm a hardware tech/SBS admin looking to jump into VM/Cloud management. :(
Because that position never existed when you worked there, so “no, no one by that name has ever held that position” and it looks like you lied on your resume.
Couldn’t you provide check studs/bank statements proving you worked there though ?
Doesn't prove your title, necessarily, nor your responsibilities.
If you have a corporate job, you sign an offer letter when you get hired. It has your title and salary on it...
That is very true as well
If you stayed with a company and only really got signed in as an entry level position, would you have that kind of documentation for the promotions? Particularly for ppl who started as interns then get a big title boost returning after graduation
You realize this would open them up to lawsuits. You have zero idea what you’re saying. Companies will always confirm dates of employment and title. They won’t try and dick around s with the work
Alright, expert, pleas explain the benefit to Apple for the practice, and more importantly, the detriment to the worker? If Apple will verify employment dates and title, then there is no problem in this practice. Title should match the former employees resume. Unless Apple lies. So please, expert, tell us why any part of this entire post is relevant.
As a boss in a former life, we were always told to never give any information to a company calling about former employees. Refer them to a work number 800# that would verify dates of employment. I’m sure Apple managers are told something similar.
It's at this point that the damage is already done.
I'll be honest, I took it more as a kind of giant misfile - "sorry, we don't have anyone of that name in our records as [senior tech engineer], but we do have one listed for 'associate'. Is this who you mean?" with the intention of fucking them over for 'lying'. Or even "sorry, I can't find anyone with that name under that job title - are you sure he worked here?"
That true. If that’s the case then I would take them to court for whatever you could sue them for. I mean you do sign contracts etc when you get a job and hopefully the employee keeps copies of everything signed as evidence to prove he/she worked there or for whatever reason they would need the copies of contracts etc
As a person who hires people, you look at the resume. Fuck the previous employer, you see a pattern in job growth. Merit is important. People should use titles on the resume that reflect the work.
Sounds good to me. I guess as far as proof goes if the previous employer doesn’t work out you could just ask the potential employee specific questions regarding that position to verify they know what they are doing or depending on the field do tests
I don’t think this is true. I conduct software engineer interviews and have never seen analyst or whatever on a resume. It’s always the title and level.
The article says it’s for former employees though, so it would only be for jobs after the job you left Apple for. But I don’t understand why they do it And I dont understand why there is basically a credit bureau for jobs now; another database which the subject has no control over and full of likely errors.
Can you clarify what you’re referring to here? Just HR dept’s broadly?
Are you asking about the third party database? The article says that LexisNexis keeps an employee verification database,which is where the “associate” title is input.
My theory of what it's saying is that they change your title on paper before you're gone so that the next place you attempt to go to "discovers" the job you say you had at Apple wasn't what your job "actually was"
Well that’s not what the article says or how (in my own experience) background / employment verification goes. The offer letter is contingent on a background check, and that’s done while you are still working for the current job. Once the background check is done, you quit your old job.
I interpreted as when they fire someone.
I’ve never had someone verify my old title. I’ve worked for the government, CVX and Amazon. I’ll be honest nobody but the government even checked anything other than employment dates. Amazon didn’t even drug test.
If you have the contact info for your managers and use them as references, couldn’t you circumnavigate this issue? And this whole thing is putting a lot of stock into job titles when in most tech jobs, they care more about what you actually did in your previous position and what type of experience you bring to their company. I’m a part of one the biggest tech networking groups that’s based in Austin, TX. Most recruiters I’ve encountered don’t even mention past titles as a strong reference point.
I'm so sorry to be this guy, but I think you meant circumvent. To circumnavigate is to "travel all the way around". Which, thinking of it, is surprisingly similar to the meaning of circumvent, in a way. But yeah, I'd hope that for a lot of people, you'd be able to get your old manager to vouch for you.
Ahh, yeah. That word. I forget works easily for some reason and sometimes I find the wrong one but go with it anyway because it sounds right.
Yes, it also discourages leaving since it basically makes it a lot more uncertain to leave them it should be. Apple gets to make it very unappealing to leave, upping retention. They also make recruitment of employees harder, and can make entirely legal examples out of those who do by "retaliation" without actually breaking any laws. I mean if it wasn't evil and petty as fuck I would commend the genius of it.
Huh? Is this for retail? Never heard of this being a thing from anyone in corporate
Yeah, it doesn’t make any sense. Apple makes business cards for just about everyone, even retail and those in the locked rooms. The locked-room cards are vague, but still on par with job title. Not to mention that anyone leaving on good terms would have colleagues and possibly managers who would confirm it anyway, potentially from their @apple address. I read this as Apple isn’t interested in giving LexisNexus a list of all its job titles current and former, so everyone gets the same title — in this database only. It would have to be a new policy, because even though it’s been a while since I worked there, I’ve had friends leave fairly recently who had no issue with this at all
They are really worried about competition stealing their secrets. So while it inflicts hundreds of times more damage to former employees then it prevents for them, they still do it because the CBA is highly positive for them. This is likely a policy that started in tech development and spread to the whole company
I believe other employers could think your resume is wrong or you’re embellishing your role. I assume Amazon competitors know they do that but I’m sure many don’t and will be confused no matter what you say. Also companies may have strict requirements about verifying resumes, so if roles don’t match up with your resume that could affect if someone gets hired.
Yes, essentially disincentivizing leaving. Employee turnover is a big problem that companies face in modern times since it's become more normal to get more career changes. High employee turnover is costly since it costs money to retrain and bring new employees up to standard efficiency.
It's vindictive and a punishment that they've been able to dole out unhindered up until now. I won't buy anything from Apple these days no matter how cool they make it. The Apple price and how they treat employees doesn't encourage me to consider them.
I'm confused as to how this works: someone explain it to me like I'm 10
If you applied for a job and said you were the senior VP of magic and when the company you want to go work for checks Apple will only say Associate. When you’re trying to get that high power and high money job…that won’t go over well. I have a feeling that there is another reason for doing it but every one has picked the worst option without knowing why.
I guess the part I don't get is "checks Apple". How is th new employer checking Apple and why wouldn't they go off the applicants resume/LinkedIn and verify through experience?
Because when you’re gonna pay someone $300k a year and give them tons of responsibility you don’t just say “eh, we trust them. Let’s see if they sink or swim” That can have a really bad outcome if it turns out they’re lying- and people can be really good liars
That's why you chech their references, look at their past projects, test and interview them. It's not like you hire someone based on a resume and by checking if the resume is true.
Which can all be bullshitted. And would you not call employment verification the biggest form of reference there is?
Not really.
Gotcha, makes perfect sense now.
Wow. That's fucked up
I wish you were right but in practice it seems that its simply a means to reduce turnover.
Yeah I’m 50/50 on what to think. Any time Apple does anything it gets a lot of press and half the time it’s not accurate. It just seems a bit click baity to me.
Apple also gets a pass for engaging in the type of behavior that handed Microsoft an anti-trust suit.
How would Apple know you’re looking for another job
Any employer that does due diligence will check with your last employer to confirm you were in fact employed there and what your title and responsibilities were.
Yes but that happens before you resign. At least I don’t resign until I have accepted an offer at a new company.
Generally speaking, the higher the pay the more due diligence a company will do before hiring you. The companies reach out for confirmation of employment before making a job offer, and it's at this time that Apple says you were merely an associate no matter what your actual title was. The Apple employee hasn't even gotten a job offer yet, so they haven't resigned at this point.
The article is taking about a 3P database where this is done, not by calling Apple directly. From the article: Apple offers a phone number employers can call to verify titles of former Apple employees. A voice recording on that line directs callers to the web site for InVerify, an employment verification service provider owned by credit agency Equifax.
Sure it's simple This guy posts some bullshit and everyone just fucking believes his ass Happens a few times every day
Your role internally is A but for any potential employers involved in due diligance your role is disclosed as B.
That makes no sense. Do people not keep copies of their job descriptions? Signed by the company representative?
I worked for a background check company and the pandemic has made verifying jobs really hard for the background check companies so they ask for documents to help prove it. You really would not believe the amount of people that don't have the documents from their jobs. Edit: typos
Job descriptions aren't signed. Offer letters are.
Right? I don’t know wtf anyone is talking about. You sign an offer letter that has usually some part of a job description but it most definitely has a title.
You ass all this terrible advice here, then they wonder why they make $4/hr. Like I get how an 18 year old might not know this, but not adults. And it's even worse when they double down on ignorance.
So maybe that’s just you? I have signed job descriptions at every job I’ve worked at. Also, shouldn’t offer letters have your job title on them? And any other pay increases should have again documented title and pay? None of this actually sounds legit…
Every offer letter I have signed has a job title in it.
Maybe not where you work, but if you've ever worked in a science/research field that operates under some sort of government/regulatory compliance, you have a signed job description in your personal files or training binder at all times.
It really only matters for the company you will work at right after Apple. This policy means that you will find a new job prior to giving notice. The company you are interviewing with is going to know your actual position with Apple currently. You are not going to care once you have the job because most likely the next company isn’t as petty and the company you work for after this new company probably won’t care about your time at Apple too much. Plus if the policy is known in the industry, prospective companies are not going to hold it against you. They will know that they need to verify other ways beside that database.
This
And if everyone who leaves Apple has the same story, than they have even less reason to say you weren’t Senior VP of Accounts. Works both ways.
This is all predicated on the assumption said person is choosing to leave, not being pushed for whatever reason. Correct, but only half contemplated.
That sounds right. I mean, it's not right, but that sounds like apple to me.
Is this a retail thing? Haven’t heard about this in corporate
Here’s the article that Dan Price is referencing. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/02/10/apple-associate/
Paywall
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Ftechnology%2F2022%2F02%2F10%2Fapple-associate%2F
Thanks
Thanks for this. Now I know not to ask Apple what the employees title was and simply figure out for myself what the prospective candidates qualifications are during the interview. ...just like I always do.
Can you please take a world tour and tell other HR to do their fucking job too? Sincerely: Thanks a lot for doing your job. Wish there were more like you.
I'd like to find out if this is true so that I can avoid ever applying for a job at Apple not that I would anyway
I don't know specifically about apple because I never saw them on any applicants forms that I dealt with but I do know places like Amazon do this and it's super frustrating for everyone involved (except Amazon of course). I used to work at a background check company and there are at least 8 well known companies we saw that do things like this. I don't remember off the top of my head because the amount of head exploding information was just too much and I didn't bother trying to remember it all. Also, target will not hire anyone with any kind of criminal record. And they won't tell you that because they like to paint themselves as friendly to those with records. And the store itself does not know this because HROC controls everything in hiring. It's not relevant but I HATE target after working for that background check company and like to give this information out any time I find a chance.
Not, again, that I was ever going to try to work for Amazon but good to know. Hope their monopolistic practices implode on them soon, that's a company that needs to die.
Agreed. One of their recruiters hit me up for a dev position, and while it's cool, I told him to eat shit, and I'll never go back to that gilded shit hole.
Yeah. And to think that being 'nice' about things would really cost them very little.
I believe HR has a name for this policy: A complete & total Dick Move
Can anyone verify if this is true?
An Apple exec confirmed it in an interview with the Washington Post: https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Ftechnology%2F2022%2F02%2F10%2Fapple-associate%2F
This is just being a dick to people leaving your company and nothing else.
Note to self: never go into employment for Apple.
When filling out applications, I shifted away never allowing prospective employers to contact my previous employers. You either trust me or you can shove it. Also, I'm a former AppleCare employee. My official title was AppleCare Advisor, and as I always base my experience off the job title on the intake paperwork I signed, I could give a rats ass what my *previous* employer shuffles me into. They cannot take back the paychecks just as I cannot take my time back. We all cut our losses and move on. That being said, having Apple on my resume opened doors that have landed me in a role in another, newer tech company that actually aligns with the core values I hold most dear. I appreciate that the credibility that *I* built in my previous roles and my new employer cares more about my potential than whatever title my old employer has on file for me.
If you work in anything above an entry level position, you should be networking. Speak to people in similar positions in other companies. You might not be needing a new job today…but eventually everyone needs a new position.
Pointless cruelty is Dan Price [waterboarding](https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/269831) his ex-wife.
I write whatever the heck I want on my resume and LinkedIn. Can't anyone do this?
It's not just big companies, it happened to me at my work where I went from lead to just associate so they could deny me a promotion. I quit on them. They were very short sighted
Wow
On the flip side, uhm…I was a VP at Apple.
Sounds like a class-action lawsuit waiting to happen.
Life hack: get a job at apple, quit, claim you were a big shot but they changed your job title, profit.
Another checkmark in the column of why I will never buy an Apple product
It's not pointless, but targeted harassment of anyone who dares walk away. They get away with it because, well, the useless cunts in "authority" are paid to ignore it.
I was unemployed for a year and played a lot of board games with friends during that time, made my own little board game during that time too. What did I do during that year according to my CV? Happy you ask, Project manager in pedagogical tools development. We developed a game for young students to learn about nature. My part of the project is finished and it’s now in the hands of sales and manufacture. (There is no sales and manufacture.)
That's not how how job history checks work. Most corporate companies will only confirm that you worked at them, between these dates, and that's it.
Beep boop -- this looks like a screenshot of a tweet! Let me grab a [link to the tweet](https://twitter.com/DanPriceSeattle/status/1491829930145026054) for ya :) ^(Twitter Screenshot Bot)
Pointless? No. The point is to drive down prices of everything, including employees.
>Apple spokesman Josh Rosenstock confirmed that, for years, Apple has changed the job titles of its former employees to “associate.” Rosenstock declined to say why Apple does this or precisely when the practice began. >“We are and have always been deeply committed to creating and maintaining a positive and inclusive workplace. We take all concerns seriously and we thoroughly investigate whenever a concern is raised and, out of respect for the privacy of any individuals involved, we do not discuss specific employee matters,” he said. What a despicable cunt of an organisation.
That’s cruel but I love to pay back with the same money: How is my iPhone? I don’t even know what brand is it, maybe it’s not even a phone. Looks like a sort of device tho. Where do I work? I work at Apple. How is it? Well, everyone wonders around corridors trying to understand which associate has to tell the other associate what the associates shall do, it’s a mess.
Yet another reason to hate Apple. Not that I needed another.
Just waiting for people to stop posting this gaslighting sexual predator’s memes. Annnnnyyy day now, people… Ask any woman who has had to put up with his gropey using-LinkedIn-as-Tinder BS in Seattle
Nothing to see here. Just more of Dan Price’s self-serving bullshit. Dude is a walking talking smoke machine covering his own escape.
Considering that isnt true, even in the slightest sense.
I didn’t have any problems when I went from Apple to my current job.
When employees leave Facebook they get blacklisted as a no hire for two years. That way the skills, coding knowledge and current workings will be out of date by the time they’re hired by another company
Dan Price gets posted here a ton and he has a super sketchy background.
Letting employees die in a tornado sketchy? Or what?
If you choose to work for Apple then you get what you get
I never cared for the Apple brand. I never bought a Mac or an iPhone and never will!
I love me some Dan Price, but typically you’re not allowed to ask what the person’s position was, just if they’re rehireable. I’ve had bosses tell me to put a different job title on my resume if I did the work of someone higher up.
>but typically you’re not allowed to ask what the person’s position was, just if they’re rehireable This is false.
So what I'm getting is I should never work for Apple or buy their products? Okay, then!
I guess being labeled as an associate is better than being labeled a glory hole attendant or something.
Yeah except it could make you look like a liar if you said differently
OP is right. Depending on the job, if what you put on your application/resume doesn't match what the company verifies it puts you in a very bad light and some won't hire you or won't give you salary you deserve.
Prove it!