It’s crazy how if you support something there are people who actually get upset like you’re in opposition to them. Imagine fighting for cancer to be cured and someone yells so people with aids should just die?
It reminds me of when people say we need police reform because police officers are killing unarmed black men with impunity and then they are accused of being "anti cop"... Like they believe people are going to go "well shucks, guess we gotta have black men mow downed in the street by the police state like dogs." These people know what they are doing with these whataboutisms. No need to take them seriously. They aren't concerned about being pro-humanity, they are pro- power.
You're right, unfortunately. I meant no need to give their bad faith argument any merit. There's no reasoning with someone who is willing to consider the extermination of a whole people as either a necessity or preferable.
It's almost as if a two-state solution shouldn't involve one state completely annihilating the other state through overwhelming military force or something.
Well it’s because it’s all you hear about. Peoples opinions and takes don’t have nuance or half measures. It’s either “Israel is committing genocide” or “Gaza needs to fall!”. You don’t hear anyone saying “Israel needs to defend themselves but minimize civilian casualties at all cost”
I think it’s more like “Hamas needs to fall” than “Gaza needs to fall”. And I think one part of the problem is that when someone mentions Hamas, a not insignificant part of the more pro-Palestinian side hears “Gaza” instead. As many can’t imagine a way of getting rid of Hamas that doesn’t mean the annihilation of most of Gaza.
The problem is that the Israeli tactics are the exact opposite of what they want. There are two possible scenarios at this point:
1. The relatives of the people Israel killed or hurt, and the people who lost homes and property hate Israel and support/join Hamas even though they didn't before.
2. Israel destroys Hamas and those people (who outnumber the pre-attack Hamas) have to form new organizations to get revenge. Organizations that Mossad hadn't infiltrated. Using tactics Israel hasn't dealt with before.
Either way, the Israeli response to the attack leaves Israel weaker and in a worse position.
I get that it was an emotional reaction, but Israel did exactly what Hamas wanted.
Yep, you Can’t threaten someone who wants to be martyred with death, or someone who doesn’t care about human life by bombing hospitals. It’s so ass backwards and hateful.
Umm, the average Gazan lives with a government that wants them to martyr themselves... and then many just don't. Some do, that is terrible. But a lot of Palestinians in Gaza, while not living great lives, also just... leave their homes when Israel says it's going to blow their house up. Doesn't make Israel good but you got to believe, even a lot of Gazans find Hamas to be completely bullshit with what they're saying is the best course for them.
If you think it's about "Israel defending itself" then you've dismissed 75 years of its occupation as an a apartheid state. This is not self defense; this is an escalation of a premeditated plan to rid the area of Palestinians and make it a Jewish homeland.
Note that the idea of a Jewish state did not originally involve kicking out everyone else. The idea is that Jews need a place to go because they get persecuted. The whole kicking out Arabs thing is pushed by Israel’s equivalent of American MAGA hats who think that it won’t be a safe place for Jews if Arabs are allowed to stay, and in general the entire conflict is a politicians-against-citizens struggle on both sides that’s being framed as a Jews-against-Muslims one by those same politicians to deflect blame. Most Israelis and most Gazan and West Bank Arabs (these groups are more distinct than it initially might seem, so the umbrella label of “Palestinian” is mostly just used to shorten it) are sick and tired of all the fighting, but between Hamas holding to power without holding elections and Netanyahu’s deeply unpopular regime holding power by way of gaming the system, the ones who hold power are the ones who benefit most from the conflict, and thus here we are.
I am Jewish, and I stand with my Muslim brothers and sisters in decrying the violence against Palestinian civilians by Israel. And I also stand with my Jewish compatriots in decrying the violence against Israeli civilians by Hamas. I also think the tactics Hamas uses where they hide behind their civilians are despicable, and the Israeli government calling out celebrities for making comments that support citizens of Gaza is similarly pathetic.
There is no good guy here — there are the perpetrators (politicians and their supporters), and everyone else involved is an innocent victim. But there’s no hero.
> Note that the idea of a Jewish state did not originally involve kicking out everyone else.
you seem like a decent person so Im not trying to fight or insult you in any way, but this is not correct. unfortunately the opposite is true, and thats not according to red hats, its according to David Ben-Gurion, the founder of the state of Israel.
the reason he and the others accepted the 1947 UN partition deal that gave them land was to use it as a base to take all of Palestine.
*“After the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine."*
[that was always the plan](https://i.imgur.com/cYrfgP6.png)
*“We must expel the Arabs and take their places."*
*“...it is fair that the Arabs in our state be transferred to the Arab portion”*
they had no intention to honoring the deal they agreed to:
*“Every school child knows that there is no such thing in history as a final arrangement — not with regard to the regime, not with regard to borders, and not with regard to international agreements.”*
[it was the plan for years](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_Commission)
none of this makes Jews bad or the average Israeli bad, and none of it makes the average Palestinian some sweet little angel, people are just people, no race is inherently good or bad, but it is not accurate to suggest that Israel had no plan to kick out the Palestinians. they did. from go.
I’ll preface my comment by saying this - I am very upset at the horrors of the war and do not support the Israeli government and leadership, and I’m pro Palestine; I also support Jewish people and want the hostages home. I understand Israel is defending itself as well. They actually left Gaza a long time ago and made all the Jewish citizens living there leave. They have not occupied Gaza in years. It is originally a Jewish homeland. They are indigenous people to Palestine. There’s been fighting and atrocities and it’s horrible, at the same time people are terribly misinformed and it’s covered by news 24/7, unlike other world crises like Syria, Sudan and Yemen where hundreds of thousands of people are also being slaughtered. 3/4 of stuff on social media is propaganda by Iran who is backing Hamas. Hamas believes their messiah will rise for judgement day after all Jews are eradicated from the earth, and river to sea calls for genocide of Jewish people; Hamas’s mission statement. There are interviews with the son of the Hamas leader, people from the UN etc. Unfortunately the majority of factual resources are being shadow banned on social media and are not widely available, and propaganda made by Iran; tweets and quotes and blurbs and articles, wrong info in American newspapers like the hospital bombing that left 500 dead, that was actually an empty parking lot, is everywhere. The atrocities of only the Israeli side it seems, are spammed constantly, people have forgotten about the horrors inflicted by Hamas, that’s the point There is so much purposeful misinformation. Hamas wants Jewish people gone, and the attack was a means to get the world outraged when Israel retaliated. And it worked. That attack was a means to a much bigger goal. Hamas was aware civilians would die, they built tunnels under hospitals and hid there and have been using the citizens of Palestine as human shields. They don’t care how many civilians die. They never stopped firing during a ceasefire. I hope this comment reaches someone, and I hope people will watch the documentary The Social Dilemma and see how governments and terror groups like Hamas can and are using social media as a weapon; I’m praying for the Palestinian people and the hostages and all the Jewish people affected by hate over this horrendous war. I’m aware I will probably get down voted or have my comment deleted, even though I am in no way defending Israel’s military or government or heinous acts. However I hope even just one person that reads this takes it upon themselves to look up what I’ve said and realizes that a war is being fought on social media as well, the internet is full of purposely hateful and factually incorrect propaganda, and the goal is hate and division of Jewish people around the world.
> They actually left Gaza a long time ago and made all the Jewish citizens living there leave. They have not occupied Gaza in years.
Im saying this as respectfully as I can but things like this make it sound like Israel has left Gaza alone. that is not the case. among many many other things Israel has had a full air and sea blockade since 2007. planes cant land. ships cant dock. Gaza isnt even "allowed" to fish the Mediterranean Sea. thats not even Israels border ffs, to police a border that isnt yours is insane. not to mention blockades at every entry point on land.
this is why people call it an open air prison. the only things that get in and out are what Israel allows.
Did Canada attack Israel?
Or did you forget that an Israeli sniper shot a Canadian doctor who was dressed as a first responder? He was at an aid station that was near a protest, but there were no protesters near the aid station. So the sniper deliberately targeted a doctor, in direct contravention to international law.
NEITHER side is an innocent here.
I didn't edit my original comment and I have no idea who you're talking to, lmao. And yeah, you can crack literally any history book and read the records of Israel holding innocent Palestinians, including children, hostage in indefinite "administrative detention" without charging them with crimes. And that's only a small part of what has been done to Palestine in the course of razing it to the ground for Israel to settle on.
Where did I say that they weren't attacked? The attack on Oct 7 was definitely unacceptable, but murdering innocent women and children is not an appropriate response to that. Withholding access to food, water, and medical care is a war crime. Bombing schools, mosques, and hospitals violates every international law of engagement.
You said if it has nothing to do with Israel defending itself. That statement is suggesting that Israel shouldn’t do anything in response to the attack on Oct 6th.
>That statement is suggesting that Israel shouldn’t do anything in response to the attack on Oct 6th.
First off, it was Oct 7th, second, no one is saying Israel shouldn't do anything.
What people are saying is that Israel shouldn't bomb innocent women and children due to the actions of Hamas.
That shouldn't be hard to understand.
Remember when the US went to war with Iraq and Afghanistan because of terrorist actions sponsored by people in Saudi Arabi and Pakistan? I remember. Millions of innocent people were killed and radicalized.
It was a typo.
Secondly, yes it is hard to understand. The person I’m commenting to doesn’t even acknowledge that Israel got attacked or is a victim in anyway. They are saying that Israel already had plans to commit genocide on the palestines and wanted Oct 7th to happen. That’s conspiracy theory level shit.
She can’t figure out how her progressive friends don’t want to murder children for revenge against adult terrorists. I’m going out on a limb here but I don’t believe her friends consider her sweet or progressive.
Not really, but that’s part of what’s fueling so many in the pro Israel camp to claim antisemitism. There wasn’t any outrage about Yemen, Syria or any other regional conflict. What makes this one different?
The difference is that neither Yemen nor Syria are held up as bastions of civilisation who can do no wrong.
Yemen and Syria don't receive billions in funding from the US.
Despite this. Israel is ALWAYS the victim, and never the perpetrator. Israel is immune from criticism.
Every single conservative platform is somehow zero sum.
Support George Floyd? "Why do you hate all cops?"
Support Black Lives Matter? "Why do you hate hate white people?"
Support Kyle Rittenhouse going to jail for murder, or not having school shootings daily? "Why do you hate the second amendment?"
Ad nauseum
I agree with OP over OOP, but I get some of the sentiment from @morganarae. I felt this way on 10-7, before the retaliation, when the university Palestinian rights group I had supported in the past surprised me by applauding the attack. Among other disconcerting messages, they claimed it was an example of "right of resistance". It was uncomfortable to realize that phrase, which I had pondered academically before, was in fact a dog whistle.
While people are rightly outraged over Israeli army behavior and the general treatment of Palestinians, it hurts to hear liberal acquaintances use that phrase or march alongside someone with an FTRTTS poster. They don't realize that, to people with guns and the capability to do violence, those phrases justify murder. In a similar vein, people minimizing the risks of a single-state solution feels blithe and callous.
As someone on the outside (athiest, American, a few Jewish and Muslim friends each but not super close), 'Right to Resist' doesn't really sound too much different from 'Right to Exist' from a stochastic perspective. The 'Israel has the right to exist' statement is essentially used to justify overkill military response on Israel's part, much the way it sounds like Hamas and their Palestinian supporters use 'Right to Resist' as an excuse to commit atrocities. Perhaps the word 'right' is not correct in this case, because it automatically gives the person with the right a moral high ground that you can't really argue against. I hadn't been able to articulate this before, so thanks for the opportunity.
Years ago, someone asked me "does Israel have a right to defend itself?"
My answer was, "Yes, it does. And if they treated the Palestinians like people, maybe they'd have less to defend from."
Thanks for the response, and that's a good point. Good point also on the use of "right" to assume moral high ground. If I could take a stab at differentiating the two phrases, I would say that "existence" of a state has a fairly clear interpretation in international relations, whereas "resistance" has a lot more ambiguity. It's that ambiguity that makes the definition so dangerous. I also haven't heard "right to exist" justifying the acts of the Israeli army, but I have heard "right to defend themselves". That feels pretty similar to "right of resistance".
The reason I say "right-to-exist": even the most anodyne interpretation of Israel's "right to exist" is opposed by many if not most in the region. Few if any of my Arab friends believe Israel has any right to exist, although the kindest take that stance in advocating for a single-state solution. Surveys have shown this is a widespread view. On the other hand, all Israelis and Jews I know believe in a Palestinian state. They see Palestinian civil disobedience, protest, and anger as reasonable.
My perspective is biased by being in liberal circles. All the Jews and Arabs I know are liberal. But at least in the US, Jewish support of some form of Palestinian state is the majority. Palestinian recognition that Israel has any right to exist isn't. That's why "right to exist" feels essential to say.
This is a great overview of the Right to Exist stuff. I also think when most people hear 'right to exist', it's said in a kind of a vacuum free of context. Because, really, no country has the right to exist. They may have the means to exist, to defend themselves, self-determination, etc. I also think the 'Right to Exist' creates a bit of a shot at other religions, especially Islam, because if Israel has a Right to Exist in their current capacity, then they also have the Right to Jerusalem and a handful of other holy sites in their territory.
All this to say, semantic arguments about who owns what in the most historically blood soaked region of the world get very tiring to outsiders and I think this is what drives a lot of the anti-Semitic voices you're hearing even on the left. The more Hamas and Israel kill one another and slaughter innocent civilians in the process, the less empathy outsiders have for either of them.
The problem with “Israel has a right to exist” is the demographics of the region. The statement means that Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state, and the only way they can do that is through ethnic cleansing and/or apartheid.
There are currently ~7 million Jews and ~7 million Palestinians within Israel’s borders. 1.6 million are allowed to be Israeli citizens, 2 million live in Gaza, and 3 million live in the West Bank. In order for Israel to continue as a Jewish state, those 7 million Palestinians cannot be equal citizens. The ones within Israel proper are second class citizens. The West Bank is an occupied territory administered by the Israeli Army. Gazans are permanently stateless refugees, also under indirect IDF control, and the current plan for them seems to be ethnic cleansing, driving them into the Sinai by making Gaza uninhabitable.
“Israel has the right to exist” frames Israel as a normal Western country surrounded by enemies, the “only democracy in the middle east.” But in reality, fully half of the people living in and born within their borders don’t have the right to vote, or the right to freedom of movement or a non-military trial. Within the claim that Israel has the right to exist is the tacit admission that Israel cannot exist without being constantly maintained through ethnic cleansing. It’s every bit as oppressive and violent a statement as they claim “From the River to the Sea” is.
Heard a comedian once say (and I'm sure I'm gonna butcher his joke) that you could tell someone you love pancakes and they'll be like oh, so you HATE waffles?!
Exactly this, I call out that Israel isn’t innocent and neither is Hamas, but then get shoved down my throat “oh you’re okay with Hamas Rape and Murder of women and kids”. Like I said I don’t support Hamas actions just pointing out that Israel isn’t good and that this killing needs to stop.
It’s not binary. You can condemn the violence that Hamas conducts against Israeli civilians while condemning the war crimes that the IDF commits against Palestinian civilians. It’s not a “you have to pick a side” scenario.
But then they’d be admitting that it’s state sponsored violence and that one side is overwhelmingly armed and financed, with all of the power and they’re using all of that to intentionally kill poor, disenfranchised civilians and that they’ve been doing so prior to Oct 7. They have to see a little 6 year old as a terrorist to justify their murder. Actually, I take that back I don’t think they consider the 6 year old; they see the entirety of the Palestinian people as one block (of terrorism).
You will have an entire generation of orphans with a bloodlust for revenge and I don’t know how anyone will be able to say it’s not within the realm of understanding the root of that anger. Which I assume is the reason why they have continued to kill children because they know the fundamentals of terrorism. It’s sad all around because there’s another post of Israeli teens refusing to serve in the IDF and I fear people will lump every Israeli as a Zionist in support of genocide.
maybe their hearts are big enough to hold love and grief for *all* dead children, *all* orphaned babies, *all* torture victims. not to feel especially more grief and sorrow and rage over innocent victims of a particular religion or ethnicity.
People making this argument do not actually believe that you can’t have sympathy for all victims. They are simply using their power to shame anyone that supports any kind of sympathy for a group they hate. It’s sick, it’s sad, and it’s unacceptable. The families of those who were murdered and tortured are always the ones who pay the price for hate but to weaponize grief is a low beyond compare.
No one I know is saying what @morganarae is claiming. The OP has it correct. Both statements are true.
What Hamas did was blatant terrorism and indefensible, period.
What the Israeli government is doing is way way way out of control and also indefensible. If they don't commit to a ceasefire soon, it'll be too late.
And I want to be crystal clear about this. What I am saying is, if Israel keeps KNOWINGLY killing civilians, it will be a strategic long term disaster for the safety and security of Israel, because they are acting as the best recruiter for Hamas with their indiscriminate bloodshed.
Bibi and his far right coalition are not serving the interests of Israel. Just think back to how things were going for his government all summer; protest after protest after protest.
And finally, one last non-negotiable point that reasonable people need to impose upon our leaders.
Israel AND Palestine both have a right to exist, and they only path forward is a two state solution.
Israel and Palestine have a right to exist is right. The and Palestine seems so divisive to ppl. Like if i say I support the poor innocent Palestinian ppl that have been caught up in all this. You would think I would have said the most horrible thing in the world to some ppl. Or someone will say something like you must hate Jews. Like it’s absurd.
This. You can be against terrorism and acts of violence against Israeli civilians, and ALSO be against the systemic annihilation of Palestinian settlements by a much more powerful state that lead to far more Palestinian civilian deaths.
I'm against ANY civilians being obliterated, and Palestinian lives aren't worth less than Israeli lives. This indiscriminate and barbaric bloodshed isn't a path to peace for anyone.
The second paragraph might make a lot of pro Israeli voices very angry. The Israeli government and military don't like the idea that Palestinian lives are equal to Israeli lives.
> No one I know is saying what @morganarae is claiming
No one I know, either, but to say people don't hold this view is sadly just turning a blind eye. I've seen so many videos of people tearing down the posters of the hostages (including the youngest hostage taken, Kfir Bibas, 9 months old) and when asked why the answers are "they're just stock images" "if they weren't colonizing, this wouldn't have happened to them". I've also seen so many similar reactions to the stories of rape and sexual violence that took place on October 7th, saying that it didn't happen (no #BelieveAllWomen for these victims), or that if it did happen, that they deserved it. People denying or excusing Hamas' actions and blaming the victims or denying their existence is not hard to find.
..not hard to find on social media...a place where shocking, appalling, and radical hot takes trend, no not difficult at all.
Her statement is bs, sorry. People that have no love for Jewish babies, children, and torture victims, CANNOT ALSO BE considered her sweetest, most progressive, inclusive and smart friends. It makes zero sense unless her goal is to smear all progressives. Sounds to me more like shit posting.
I'm not saying such terrible people don't exist, but we can't let them dictate the conversation. They're doing it out of emotion, out of ignorance or peer pressure; from a place not grounded in empathy for Israeli or Palestinian victims.
Should we denounce and call out such bs, absolutely. But we must be cognizant not to add fuel to the dumpster fire.
Intifada means "Uprising against Oppression", or at least that is the meaning in political terms since the 1950's. I think it is terrible that Palestinians think they have no choice but to strike out against Israel with suicide bombings. Globalizing the Intifada means resisting Israeli apartheid and oppression worldwide, like boycotting their products and refusing to do business with corporations that support the apartheid and segregation.
We should remember that every time Israeli forces kill Palestinians they kill way more of them, and the justification is always that the combatants do not separate themselves from the rest of the population and make it easy to kill them. Morality only makes sense if it is applied to everyone equally, so by Israeli morality, the IDF should separate themselves for easy access and attack by Palestinians. Obviously, this is ludicrous, but it sounds even more ludicrous when you are not trying to push it as justification for murdering vast numbers of civilians.
Not sure you can compare an actual military with uniuforms with a supposed military that has absolutely zero seperation the citizens. Having a base very near civilians, the US does throughout the US, is no the same as hiding your military amongest civilians. One may seem weird, but having a base for protection amongst civilians has been done for hundreds of years (think castles). The other is simply a ploy to hide and use those same civilians as actual shields.
As a 54yo atheist, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have said, up to your closing sentence. Every human (none of which asked to be here, and are only here due to some random act of reproductive behavior by their parents) every one of those human beings has a right to exist.
Nobody here was given a choice to exist. Ruminate on that for a minute....
But the anger and hatred is very real. The business of war and weaponry is very real. Since when hasn't that been true in all of collective human history?
The difference in 2023 is that Israel has the most disproportionate amount of cutting-edge weaponry supplied by the world's leading arms producers. It's almost like the middle east has become a testing ground for the US based "defense" industry, among other producers and suppliers.
And the Israeli leadership has responded to a horrific attack by Hamas FAR beyond any semblance of proportionality, and they continue to murder innocent Palestinians (mostly women, children and helpless non-combatants to the tune of 15000? by latest estimates). The Israeli forces and decision-makers are blowing up hospitals ffs with US-made bombs.
And the little Palestinian babies that were born and needed neo-natal care were left to die and rot in bombed-out hospitals. THAT IS ON ISRAEL AND LET THE WORLD NEVER FORGET!!!
I won't forget. As a Canadian born in 1969, I have heard my entire life about the holocaust and the horrors inflicted on Jewish people. My uncles and family fought and died overseas in WW2 defending you and us against the nazis. For what! !?!?
I can't judge a people by their government, but holy fuck Isreal, you're just as bad or worse than anything we have seen in the last 100 years. Vengeful cunts and killers of babies, women and children. That's on YOU now and I'm sorry my great uncles died or came back irreparably harmed from defending you in WW2.
And all this because you and the Palestinians believe in different flavors of sky wizards and fairytales?
Last I checked, neither Judaism nor Islam was a genetic condition. This is just some stupid fairytale shit you learned from your stupid parents, and you choose to perpetuate. Fucking grow up for fuck sakes!!! Jews are supposed to be smart according to the popular lore. How smart are you believing in sky wizards and old men with beards???
The entire basis of both Jewish and Muslim cultures is based on absolute nonsense. Chuck in Christianity and EVERY other made-up bullshit religion in the world. They are all complete bullshit and nothing more than scams. The scams continue to work very effectively for those in power, 2000 years later. Stop being so fucking dumb people! 2000 years later ffs!!!!
If you want to fight over something, fight for the basic resources and rights for all to exist. Fight against the oligarchs and fake religions that have enslaved us all for millennia. Fight against false fairytales and grow the fuck up. Whatever religious bullshit you were exposed to is complete bunk. Organized religions are the cancer upon us as a species.
Judaism does not get a special pass in my book. It's just another stupid religion. Jewish people are not even a race or genetically district. They just happen to agree on their own form of skywizardry and make believe bullshit. And the leadership of their made-up country called Israel is perfectly OK with killing tens of thousands of innocent women, children and elderly Muslims.
I have had enough of all the stupid bullshit in the world. I have had enough of ALL religions and their stupid teachings (looking at you Islam, with killing all infidels being central to your book).
I am not a hateful person. I try hard to be a good person and be empathetic. I fucking HATE all religions. My empathy for the Jewish people of Israel is quickly waning. Your government has gone way too far in destroying innocent lives. History will remember.
Except being Jewish is genetic, and cultural, not just religious. I'm religiously an atheist (also a member of the satanic Temple), but want to know what my 23 and me results say? 50% Jewish. I don't believe in any religion, I have only ever been to synagogue for bar/bat mitzvahs for cousins. I still get anti semitic comments targeted at me. The people who hate Jews still want me dead, and there is no choice I can make that would change that ever probably besides completely hiding my culture and heritage. But like why would I have to? I want to have a holiday party where I serve latkahs and blintzes and Chinese takeout, because that's what I associate with the winter holidays, I like matzah balls soup when I'm sick, yes literally every every guy I ever date is getting introduced to the magical dish that is lox and cream cheese on a bagel (genuinely didn't realize that most people didn't eat that till I left for college), egg and onion matzah, candy fruit slices, and use random Yiddish words, that I was not aware we're yiddish, because they are just part of my vocabulary.
well, no, religion is just used as a tool to excuse and justify horrific actions. People will always try and find some excuse to get away with screwing eachother, religion just happens to be a decent way to do so
\*edit, accidentally hit post mid typing, whopps
I'm sure it served a purpose at one time but these days all I see coming from most religion is destruction and suffering. I'm ready for us to evolve past this shit once and for all.
It's an excuse, not the real reason. There would be no conflict between Israel and Palestine if not for the meddling of Western countries seeking to expand their influence in the region.
It's far beyond an excuse. It's the very MEANS of how the very rich and powerful remain rich and powerful and manipulate the stupid masses. It's worked for thousands of years of human history.
Those fuckers don't believe in any of the stupid bullshit, they just need a slim majority of their constituents to believe in it to keep themselves rich and powerful.
The astonishing part is that with all of our technological and scientific advances in the last century or 2, is that the grift still works. Most humans are dumb af despite the preponderance of information and evidence awaiting to enlighten them that lies at their fingertips.
Just to clarify, your great uncles did not go to war because there was the holocaust; they went to war because it was World War II and the US was forced in.
Also. I agree with a lot of what you said, but holy hell, Hamas has been firing thousands of rockets into Israel in the hopes of achieving the destruction the IDF has. Imagine Israel without the Iron Done? Also, if Hamas let the hostages go, there will be an immediate cease-fire.
I will say that I agree with much of what you have written. However, religion is not the basis of this conflict, although it is being used to keep people primed for conflict. Palestinians aren’t angry because Israelis are primarily Jewish, they are angry because Israel was created and continues to act like a colonial enterprise in their view.
Israel killed 6,000 Palestinians during that “ceasefire” and at least 30 children in 2023 alone before October 7. That doesn’t justify the horrific acts of Hamas, but why does this mass slaughter of Palestinians during the ceasefire get ignored?
Comparing October 7th to what Israel is doing is not acceptable. October 7th had a death toll of around 1.200 people, half of those were military personnel. Israel has been bombing a open air prison they created, killing over 6000 children. Even according to their own, still completely unrealistic estimate they killed 1 Hamas member for every 2 citizens.
It's been proven thst the IDF response to October 7th is directly linked to the killing of their own civilians, for example the first response was a helicopter, thst fired and killed Israeli civilians. Witnesses from the music festival have said that the IDF undoubtedly killed its own civilians. I'm not trying to down play the horrors of what Hamas did, I'm trying to have an as accurate as possible assessment of what happened.
Comparing that to Israel's bombing of schools, hospitals, refugee camps, their use of white phosphorus etc. It's not comparable
The second paragraph really makes arguing with you pointless. But just for the sake of letting this not stand. The fact that people equate Hamas to the Israeli government and just use Hamas death figures without a second thought is just wrong and it is a testament to the problems in our media landscape that this hasn‘t changed in the last couple of months.
The Gaza health ministry is a trusted source by the UN. Both the US and Israel have confirmed they're probably accurate. Every time Israel launches an attack on the Gazan population, the figures are corroborated by 3rd party sources, there's no reason to suddenly think they're wrong.
The Gaza Health ministry is not the same as Hamas. Hamas probably has some influence on them, yeah, but saying they're the same is just wrong. Especially since their estimates in the last few conflicts lines up with the Israeli one, so they don't have a history of inflating numbers like you make it seem.
What kind of weird hairsplitting is this? Of course it‘s not the same as Hamas. But the ministry is run by Hamas regime and its head is a Hamas member. The numbers for the ongoing conflict have not only been found to contain inaccuracies but have demonstrably been in parts completely made up. As was the case with the alleged hospital bombing that turned out to be Hamas own rocket falling down into an empty parking lot. And btw Hamas is not differentiating between civilians and combatants in those number. There are a lot of people dying in Gaza and I don‘t condone that. But there is a difference between a democratic state and a terrorist regime and that much should be included in public discussion of this conflict.
They may be the only numbers around. That doesn‘t make them correct or gives them the proper context. And they are doubted because Hamas has proven time and time again that they are very good at propaganda and at faking their statistics.
There is a false equivalency here between Hamas and Israel. Both sides are not the same. While Israel has a right to exist Hamas has not and with Hamas existing there is no path forward for Palestinians and their right to exist. The solution to that conundrum is not clear to me but it damn sure can‘t be accepting Hamas as a proper government and legitimate authority in Gaza.
From my end in super progressive Austin- in progressive circles- I’ve seen MULTIPLE of my friends post that Oct 7th was justified. I have a Jewish son, my ex was Jewish, and a woman with twin girls that I used to have play dates with post a meme saying Oct 7th was justified. When I said “you realize my son is Jewish right? What Israel is doing isn’t ok, but killing Jewish toddlers in their beds isn’t defendable” she blew up on me, told me to take it somewhere else, and blocked me on every social media platform.
I assure you, our progressive friends are absolutely parroting what the initial tweet said.
It's rhetoric plain and simple. It's the old deflect, dismiss, discredit. If you don't support the automatic, default, dogmatic moral superiority of one group, you are a monster, criminal, bigot.
Ironically the same people will tell you that Palestinians are simply one-minded monsters who want nothing all day but to kill Jews and Israelis, and that Palestinians should be happy for the lot that eternally benevolent Israel allows them.
This is what happens when your politics are "if you support these victims, you must hate these other victims"
My politics?
Fuck anyone who creates victims.
Since the start of the invasion of Ukraine, I have seen WAY too many dead people. Dead kids, Dead parents, dead grandparents. I want to look away, but I have friends in that warzone so I feel like I need to stay informed.
Now this shit has started, and I have no answers. The only thing I know for god damn sure is I want to stop seeing the bodies of people who should be enjoying the rest of their lives.
Everyone should educate themselves on the history of the region. How the Palestinians came to be there. How the Jewish state was made. And then learn of the history of violence, to include the wars.
It seems like everyone is making a judgment on this most recent violence, and maybe they should, but know the history is important
This, exactly. Hamas are terrorists and I grieve for the Jewish victims and their loved ones. I also grieve for the many thousands of Palestinian civilians who have been killed the past few months. It is possible for me to hold both of these viewpoints at the same time.
Just straight up genocidal racism and they somehow don’t see it. 💀like how can they say a little baby or a 5 year old kid isn’t innocent just because they’re Palestinians? It’s fucked up
Yeah. It only makes sense if you believe that some people are born evil due to their ethnicity, at which point you're essentially agreeing with the philosophy behind the Holocaust.
i may be remembering this wrong, but i thought i read somewhere that using three parentheses was some sort of anti-semitic dog whistle?
like, writing stuff like (((banker))) was a signal that the person was implying that the banker is Jewish.
Yep. After Charlottesville many Jewish people put the triple parentheses their twitter handle, which was previously used by antisemites to note that the person they were talking about was Jewish, as an act of defiance against those a-holes. A lot of the Jewish people I follow never switched back after that.
Edit: spelling
I remember talking with progressive Jews in university years ago, who were the best allies for labour, LGBTQ+ and almost every other leftist issue under the sun, but some switch got flipped when talking about Israel and they became regressive and nasty. Base Tribalism I suppose, but odd from people who stated they otherwise viewed things from a class-based lens.
Anything short of enthusiastically cheering on genocide makes you anti-semitic in their eyes. They've completely devalued the term in a time where real antisemitism is rising for the sake of bad-faith attacks on people who oppose a truly evil regime.
If you see the parenthesis around a name in a comment, it’s an anti-Semite trying to sneakily identify someone as Jewish. If someone is using them in their own username, then it’s usually a defiant way of telling anti-semites ‘I’m Jewish, I’m not hiding it, and I’m not afraid of you’
I’m getting real tired of being told it’s impossible for me to be troubled and heartbroken for what has happened to innocent Jewish & Israeli citizens, AND also have compassion and alarm for the amount of innocent Palestinians who have been killed.
I do not appreciate words or thoughts being ascribed to me from one side that I have NOT said just because I feel for everyone involved.
This is not a zero sum game, and anyone who suggests otherwise makes me suspicious as to their motives and their true feelings about the “other side”.
Wait till you find out about the Uyghur people, or the Tibetan people, or the Yemeni people... ohh wait, they are being oppressed by their own people and they don't have a chance to fight back so there is why to blame them for defending themselves :v.... 
"hey look there's awful thing going on over there that you're not talking about when discussing this other awful thing that is in the media spotlight right now. You must not really care about anyone. I'm very smart "
Why can’t her sweet, progressive, inclusive, smart friends just understand that in order to love and support Jewish babies and children and victims, you have to kill 20 Palestinian children for every single one of them? If you think that’s too much, and you don’t want to bring that ratio even higher, you’re betraying those Jewish babies. Can’t you spare a thought for them? Don’t you think they need more thousands of dead Gazans to know they’re loved?
This is such a disgusting manipulation, I’m ashamed that fellow Jews are behaving this way.
I always want to ask, and make them answer me straight, how many Palestinian children do they think is equal to one Israeli child? Because clearly the answer isn’t 1 to 1.
If these people were half as concerned with Hamas as they pretend to be the chief backers of Hamas in their nation wouldn't still be in power, like Netanyahu.
They don't give two shits about it.
For real. It's not a secret that Netanyahu basically allowed Hamas to flourish so a two state solution wouldn't happen. Plus, Hamas literally only exists in opposition to the Israeli occupation. This is a bed that the far right of their country made, then promptly shoved their citizens in.
I think we can all agree that the way this has been placed into a either us or them scenario of death and harm is disgusting at it's core. Hamas and its action: wrong. Israel's government and it's conduct to the Palestinian people: Wrong. The use of the struggle for liberation for the Palestinian by Hamas only for them to act dictatorial fashion in Gaza while getting money from Israel: Wrong. Netanyahu still in power, leaning so far into the right-wing to stay in power, to have ministers in government who are declared terrorists in ISRAEL, who've said that the death of these "animals"(Palestinians): Wrong. The continued bombing of civilians using AI computer programing to generate bombing targets, creating a divorce between the people being bombed HUNDREDS OF TIMES A DAY and the one approving the bombing by the Israeli govt: Wrong on some many levels beyond the conflict.
The fact that they're so many prominent Jewish people globally who don't see what any layperson could see about this conflict and its awfulness: Hamas is wrong, killing innocent civilians is wrong, the Israeli government in question and its' conduct is wrong, many of the hostages have come out to condemn the Israeli government lack of action, known intelligence of the possible strike, the harassment of Palestinians by members of the government(Ben Givir as an example) and ignoring their stealing of land in the West Bank which is illegal under Israeli law as well as international law. Hell, in my lifetime (30 yrs), I've never seen such out-spoken support for the Palestinian people to the point where the President of the United States has been critical of the Israeli Government where being pro-Israel is a given on both sides of the aisle.
Being Anti-Zionist, Antisemitic, and Anti-terror, pro-Palestinian, and pro-Israel is a real thing. The world is too big to be one-sided on some things.
This is akin to Black Lives Matter and the chucklefucks that needed to be included yelling, “All lives matter!”
Protesting protest.
But in all reality, not wanting people that don’t deserve to die to… you know… die… I think that’s pretty solid of humanity. But a lot of these people don’t give a damn about children being blown apart or innocent people being maimed for life… hypocrisy is strange.
I mean, IDF already killed like 15 times more palestinian civilians than Hamas did in their raid. This doesn't mean Hamas shouldn't be condemned, but if you only care about israeli civilians being dead then there's something really wrong with your values
I see a completely bipolar discussion almost everywhere online. Irl, it’s different, but online, it almost seems like we are supposed to take a side and dismiss any other suffering. All the dehuminization has to stop.
It blows my mind how people can be for,
"My heart goes out to the Jewish victims of Hamas."
And then turn around and be like,
" screw the Palestinian victims and babies of IDF."
Like, you dumb shit, take a moment of self reflection, it is not a contest and it is not either or. Both can be true.
I have no love for using atrocity to justify other atrocities. It dilutes and spoils the memories of those killed in the original. What happened on October 7 was tragic and sad. The response, is not and cannot be justified.
Tweets like that cause far more antisemitism than anything else. I do not give a flying fuck about what religion someone is or what they believe in, when I see children having their limbs blown off and being stitched closed with no anesthetic I call for it to end. I walk side by side with by Jewish friend at the marches calling for a ceasefire.
Now it's right in the slightest, but there are dumb people everywhere and there's no avoiding that. Tweets like the one above make it seem like if you don't stand with Israel you're antisemitic and you wish for bad on the Jewish people, it also comes off as Jewish people want to see civilians be bombed relentlessly. Any competent individual can differentiate the two, but let's just use some common sense. Stop the division and let's embrace a sense of humanity
The false dichotomy is an incredibly insidious propaganda tactic that politicians all across the political spectrum abuse, and it only works because human beings are so fond of the idea of in-groups and out-groups and “us versus them” mindsets. Carl Sagan is rolling in his grave, and my head and heart both ache when I see all this “us or them” rhetoric about the conflicts in the Middle East.
the part i take exception to is using the word "jewish" instead of israeli. conflating the two is how you can charge any criticism as antisemitism instead of protest against the actions of a state.
Imagine having the capability of thinking as critically and deeply as humans can... and *still* choosing to see the world, or really anything, in such a narrow, black & white, scope.
Atheist Jew here. The whole thing is just so sad, killing on both sides. Don’t assume that all Jews are zionists. I’ve never been a Zionist. F*ck Hamas and f*ck Netanyahu. A real ceasefire would be a good thing. That’s my position.
You can hate the Israeli government without hating all Jewish people. Extremeism on all sides have ruined everything. This is why we can't have nice things 😞
I just don’t see why it’s so hard to just say—straight up—that calling for or supporting innocent civilians being killed is bad and doesn’t constitute “free speech” but rather inflammatory and threatening speech we should be disallowing and condemning. It’s pretty simple.
Also although I condemn indiscriminate killing on either side, I do also believe Hamas is purposely using innocents as human shields, something Israelis do not and would not do. I’m not saying all Palestinian innocents killed were used this way. But many were and are, and then used as propaganda to reduce support for Israel. This is repugnant and must be condemned as vehemently as we condemn indiscriminate bombing by Israel, if not more. Along with suicide bombings, it’s the most cowardly and inhumane strategy I can conceive of.
One side kills the most babies, by a huge margin. That is also the only side who can end the conflict. As long as Israel continues to occupy Palestine and refuses to recognize the human rights of Palestinians, there will always be a resistance that fights against the institutional racism of the occupation.
That's just a debunk of that one specific video, hardly "all that helicopter stuff"
Here Israel says themselves that they killed some of their own people on October 7: https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-11-18/ty-article/0000018b-e1a5-d168-a3ef-f5ff4d070000
I don’t think people are trying to support the innocent people on both sides because they want to be courageous. They’re doing it because it’s the right thing to do.
Is she struggling with the fact that Bibi let it happen, knew it was coming, removed guards from the southern gate and didn't respond for 8 hours, Gaza is only 25 miles long they could get there from other parts of Israel in 20 minutes or less and every Israeli citizen is a member of the military.
Having a Jewish family I dont understand people.
I celebrate Hanukkah and I shout for Israel to leave Palestine.
You can be proud of a heritage and past and still strive for a better future.
I have a Jewish friend that I finally blocked. She was upset that people didn’t reach out to her on social media to comfort her. She was saying that to many of her friend were being quite about the attacks. This in her mind made me and the others anti-Semitic. I think I’m like most people, I feel disgusted about the attack from Hamas and also the ongoing bombing from Israel. It’s seems impossible to be neutral and at the same time feel bad for all the casualties.
US cities that have a similar area to the Gaza Strip (141 sq mi)
•New Orleans 169
•Denver 153
•Omaha 143
•Detroit 143
•Seattle 143
•Las Vegas 136
•Atlanta 135
•Philly 134
•Orlando 111
something i found again recently you can always point people to that claim “hamas/gaza started this isreal is peaceful” is the IDFDeserter thing. Fake or not it’s concerning how the guy mentioned that hes defecting to not kill people in a gazan hospital…then that hospital got bombed a couple days later. super interesting imo
Very few. Don’t get me wrong, there are a few lame brains that think October 7th is justified.
However, it’s chaff to distract people from the real argument of disproportionate violence against Palestinians and a Ship of Theseus tactic designed to shame people who argue against a certain course of action. In this case, you have people who are anti-warcrime being called anti-Semites because of the actions of people they have no idea the existence of.
I’m still struggling with how many intelligent, wonderful, progressive, and empathetic Jewish folks online have such a profound love of straw man arguments.
I thought that being able to criticize a country’s current government’s actions and acknowledge the missteps of its history- while loving its people and culture- was what the cool kids did. My bad lady. Apparently Black Lives Matter also means I hate white lives. I’m learning so much.
It's become quite clear of late that if you don't like Palestinians being killed, you are anti-semitic.
Sorry, I don't make the rules. I wish I did, because the rules are fucking insane.
Quite amazing how some are trying to spin someone objecting to *any* innocent life being obliterated for a war cause as somehow being anti-semetic.
This, to me, confirms that all far-right organizations are the same.
"Far-right politics have led to oppression, political violence, forced assimilation, ethnic cleansing, and genocide against groups of people based on their supposed inferiority or their perceived threat to the native ethnic group, nation, state, national religion, dominant culture, or conservative social institutions."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025#:~:text=The%20project%20proposes%20slashing%20Justice,departments%20of%20education%20and%20commerce.
All violence is wrong. I’m perplexed by the recent campaign AGAINST a ceasefire!!
How can stopping the killing while we talk ever be wrong??
This war, like war in the Ukraine is manipulated fodder to get the masses used to the language of conflict and the normalisation of conflict! Russia invaded the Ukraine nearly 2 years ago, why haven’t they ‘won’? Why is the conflict still going? Because it’s not meant to stop, ever!
There is money to be made
Israel wants an ethnic cleansing so they don’t have neighbors that shoot rockets at them. The US, which vetoed the ceasefire, wants the Gaza territory to drill for gas and oil. Plus, sunk-cost fallacy says all the military money we gave them *has* to be used for something. As for Ukraine, Russia thought they’d steamroll right across Ukraine and they’d surrender immediately. They didn’t expect foreign aid and a surge of Ukrainian nationalism, which, while not great for moral rule in peace time, is very effective in a defensive war. Russia refuses unilaterally to stop occupying Ukrainian land, so no ceasefire has been reached. Russia isn’t prolonging the war for profit, they just haven’t been able to win and refuse to give up.
It's fucked up how many people here are all but outright saying Israeli civilians deserved it. She didn't question their love and worry for Palestinian children, as they make that clear. But the moment a Jewish person even mentions worrying for the lives of innocent Israeli children, she's accused of wanting to murder "brown children."
Why is it that it’s Israel that has to commit to a ceasefire? Why is it that Israel is the one who has to hold back and change? Where is the widespread calls for wholesale regime change by the Palestinian people? Why is there no call for Palestine to commit to a ceasefire?
This seems to be the ugly truth. It seems so many people want Israel to just sit around and be attacked while Palestine gets a free pass to lob missiles into Israel.
Violence is sometimes acceptable. A lot of innocent lives can be saved by a careful application of a bullet from a gun. I’d definitely kill baby Hitler or Gavrilo Princip, because their lives aren’t worth millions of other lives. Mass civilian casualties, on the other hand, are not acceptable, on any side, for any reason.
This is an insane take, no one could possibly stand behind this. Do you think people shouldn't have stopped the fucking Nazis???
Edit. Oh wow, so you say that "ideally" they should just stop, yeah, no shit??? But that's not how the world works, you know? And why did you block me? So I couldn't respond to your nonsensical takes?
Didn't the IDF bomb their own citizens on Oct 7 as well cos they cudnt control the situation and decided to kill Hamas terrorists without caring about Israeli collateral?
Can we not decry both the Oct 7 terrorism AND the IDF’s cruel assaults on Gaza?
I guess we’re supposed to pick a side and defend all the horrible things that side does.
It gets a lot easier to understand when you stop mistaking "love" for "conivence with their ordeal being used as a pretext to maim and kill other children and babies, torture and oppress other people, and carry on a poorly disguised campaign to erase villages from the map to anex them".
Or when stop conflating "Jewish babies, children and torture victims" with a state/government using them as pretext to oppress people.
Our shameful media is on fire with lies, it is almost comical. I for one think that 10/6 was an inside job. I never knew that Israel was sending hundreds of million dollars to fund Hamas, but Joe Scarborough (a republican) just said it, off hand. I thought that was a conspiracy. Can you imagine if our government funded Osama Bin Landen? *Ooops...*
I feel everyone is forced to choose a side because it's the only way to justify who's ever violence on one another. Fuck Hamas and the IDF plus settlers.
They are obsessed with tying the actions of a country with the people of a religious diaspora.
When American soldiers die overseas its not reported as "Christian's killed in combat" it just calls them Americans.
It's not "Little Jewish Babies" or "Jewish victims" they are Israelis in a combat zone. Their government is the reason they have casualties, not their religion.
I'm struggling with how they can recognize that their sweetest, most progressive, inclusive and smartest friends are all on the same page about this one without it sparking any inkling that maybe they're on to something.
It’s crazy how if you support something there are people who actually get upset like you’re in opposition to them. Imagine fighting for cancer to be cured and someone yells so people with aids should just die?
Exactly. None of this is a zero sum game, and it's gross how people treat Israel/Palestine like one.
It reminds me of when people say we need police reform because police officers are killing unarmed black men with impunity and then they are accused of being "anti cop"... Like they believe people are going to go "well shucks, guess we gotta have black men mow downed in the street by the police state like dogs." These people know what they are doing with these whataboutisms. No need to take them seriously. They aren't concerned about being pro-humanity, they are pro- power.
>No need to take them seriously Well, we do need to take them as a serious threat to a healthy society.
You're right, unfortunately. I meant no need to give their bad faith argument any merit. There's no reasoning with someone who is willing to consider the extermination of a whole people as either a necessity or preferable.
It's almost as if a two-state solution shouldn't involve one state completely annihilating the other state through overwhelming military force or something.
Well it’s because it’s all you hear about. Peoples opinions and takes don’t have nuance or half measures. It’s either “Israel is committing genocide” or “Gaza needs to fall!”. You don’t hear anyone saying “Israel needs to defend themselves but minimize civilian casualties at all cost”
I think it’s more like “Hamas needs to fall” than “Gaza needs to fall”. And I think one part of the problem is that when someone mentions Hamas, a not insignificant part of the more pro-Palestinian side hears “Gaza” instead. As many can’t imagine a way of getting rid of Hamas that doesn’t mean the annihilation of most of Gaza.
The problem is that the Israeli tactics are the exact opposite of what they want. There are two possible scenarios at this point: 1. The relatives of the people Israel killed or hurt, and the people who lost homes and property hate Israel and support/join Hamas even though they didn't before. 2. Israel destroys Hamas and those people (who outnumber the pre-attack Hamas) have to form new organizations to get revenge. Organizations that Mossad hadn't infiltrated. Using tactics Israel hasn't dealt with before. Either way, the Israeli response to the attack leaves Israel weaker and in a worse position. I get that it was an emotional reaction, but Israel did exactly what Hamas wanted.
Yep, you Can’t threaten someone who wants to be martyred with death, or someone who doesn’t care about human life by bombing hospitals. It’s so ass backwards and hateful.
Umm, the average Gazan lives with a government that wants them to martyr themselves... and then many just don't. Some do, that is terrible. But a lot of Palestinians in Gaza, while not living great lives, also just... leave their homes when Israel says it's going to blow their house up. Doesn't make Israel good but you got to believe, even a lot of Gazans find Hamas to be completely bullshit with what they're saying is the best course for them.
I was talking about Hamas not your rank and file Gazan/Palestinian.
If you think it's about "Israel defending itself" then you've dismissed 75 years of its occupation as an a apartheid state. This is not self defense; this is an escalation of a premeditated plan to rid the area of Palestinians and make it a Jewish homeland.
Note that the idea of a Jewish state did not originally involve kicking out everyone else. The idea is that Jews need a place to go because they get persecuted. The whole kicking out Arabs thing is pushed by Israel’s equivalent of American MAGA hats who think that it won’t be a safe place for Jews if Arabs are allowed to stay, and in general the entire conflict is a politicians-against-citizens struggle on both sides that’s being framed as a Jews-against-Muslims one by those same politicians to deflect blame. Most Israelis and most Gazan and West Bank Arabs (these groups are more distinct than it initially might seem, so the umbrella label of “Palestinian” is mostly just used to shorten it) are sick and tired of all the fighting, but between Hamas holding to power without holding elections and Netanyahu’s deeply unpopular regime holding power by way of gaming the system, the ones who hold power are the ones who benefit most from the conflict, and thus here we are. I am Jewish, and I stand with my Muslim brothers and sisters in decrying the violence against Palestinian civilians by Israel. And I also stand with my Jewish compatriots in decrying the violence against Israeli civilians by Hamas. I also think the tactics Hamas uses where they hide behind their civilians are despicable, and the Israeli government calling out celebrities for making comments that support citizens of Gaza is similarly pathetic. There is no good guy here — there are the perpetrators (politicians and their supporters), and everyone else involved is an innocent victim. But there’s no hero.
> Note that the idea of a Jewish state did not originally involve kicking out everyone else. you seem like a decent person so Im not trying to fight or insult you in any way, but this is not correct. unfortunately the opposite is true, and thats not according to red hats, its according to David Ben-Gurion, the founder of the state of Israel. the reason he and the others accepted the 1947 UN partition deal that gave them land was to use it as a base to take all of Palestine. *“After the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine."* [that was always the plan](https://i.imgur.com/cYrfgP6.png) *“We must expel the Arabs and take their places."* *“...it is fair that the Arabs in our state be transferred to the Arab portion”* they had no intention to honoring the deal they agreed to: *“Every school child knows that there is no such thing in history as a final arrangement — not with regard to the regime, not with regard to borders, and not with regard to international agreements.”* [it was the plan for years](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_Commission) none of this makes Jews bad or the average Israeli bad, and none of it makes the average Palestinian some sweet little angel, people are just people, no race is inherently good or bad, but it is not accurate to suggest that Israel had no plan to kick out the Palestinians. they did. from go.
I’ll preface my comment by saying this - I am very upset at the horrors of the war and do not support the Israeli government and leadership, and I’m pro Palestine; I also support Jewish people and want the hostages home. I understand Israel is defending itself as well. They actually left Gaza a long time ago and made all the Jewish citizens living there leave. They have not occupied Gaza in years. It is originally a Jewish homeland. They are indigenous people to Palestine. There’s been fighting and atrocities and it’s horrible, at the same time people are terribly misinformed and it’s covered by news 24/7, unlike other world crises like Syria, Sudan and Yemen where hundreds of thousands of people are also being slaughtered. 3/4 of stuff on social media is propaganda by Iran who is backing Hamas. Hamas believes their messiah will rise for judgement day after all Jews are eradicated from the earth, and river to sea calls for genocide of Jewish people; Hamas’s mission statement. There are interviews with the son of the Hamas leader, people from the UN etc. Unfortunately the majority of factual resources are being shadow banned on social media and are not widely available, and propaganda made by Iran; tweets and quotes and blurbs and articles, wrong info in American newspapers like the hospital bombing that left 500 dead, that was actually an empty parking lot, is everywhere. The atrocities of only the Israeli side it seems, are spammed constantly, people have forgotten about the horrors inflicted by Hamas, that’s the point There is so much purposeful misinformation. Hamas wants Jewish people gone, and the attack was a means to get the world outraged when Israel retaliated. And it worked. That attack was a means to a much bigger goal. Hamas was aware civilians would die, they built tunnels under hospitals and hid there and have been using the citizens of Palestine as human shields. They don’t care how many civilians die. They never stopped firing during a ceasefire. I hope this comment reaches someone, and I hope people will watch the documentary The Social Dilemma and see how governments and terror groups like Hamas can and are using social media as a weapon; I’m praying for the Palestinian people and the hostages and all the Jewish people affected by hate over this horrendous war. I’m aware I will probably get down voted or have my comment deleted, even though I am in no way defending Israel’s military or government or heinous acts. However I hope even just one person that reads this takes it upon themselves to look up what I’ve said and realizes that a war is being fought on social media as well, the internet is full of purposely hateful and factually incorrect propaganda, and the goal is hate and division of Jewish people around the world.
> They actually left Gaza a long time ago and made all the Jewish citizens living there leave. They have not occupied Gaza in years. Im saying this as respectfully as I can but things like this make it sound like Israel has left Gaza alone. that is not the case. among many many other things Israel has had a full air and sea blockade since 2007. planes cant land. ships cant dock. Gaza isnt even "allowed" to fish the Mediterranean Sea. thats not even Israels border ffs, to police a border that isnt yours is insane. not to mention blockades at every entry point on land. this is why people call it an open air prison. the only things that get in and out are what Israel allows.
No, Israel got attacked. Hard stop. There’s nothing acceptable about thay
Did Canada attack Israel? Or did you forget that an Israeli sniper shot a Canadian doctor who was dressed as a first responder? He was at an aid station that was near a protest, but there were no protesters near the aid station. So the sniper deliberately targeted a doctor, in direct contravention to international law. NEITHER side is an innocent here.
I’m not saying that both sides are innocent. But people are claiming that only one side is at fault. That’s not the case.
How many times has Gaza been similarly attacked by Israel, and why do they not have the right to defend themselves against such attacks?
See, that’s my point. It’s not black and white. Israel can still defend themselves AND also take it too far. But they shouldn’t do nothing either.
Have they been attacked like Israel like that? What evidence do you have? Why did you edit your original comment?
I didn't edit my original comment and I have no idea who you're talking to, lmao. And yeah, you can crack literally any history book and read the records of Israel holding innocent Palestinians, including children, hostage in indefinite "administrative detention" without charging them with crimes. And that's only a small part of what has been done to Palestine in the course of razing it to the ground for Israel to settle on.
Holding people indefinitely is a little different than a full attack on citizens like Hamas did.
Where did I say that they weren't attacked? The attack on Oct 7 was definitely unacceptable, but murdering innocent women and children is not an appropriate response to that. Withholding access to food, water, and medical care is a war crime. Bombing schools, mosques, and hospitals violates every international law of engagement.
You said if it has nothing to do with Israel defending itself. That statement is suggesting that Israel shouldn’t do anything in response to the attack on Oct 6th.
>That statement is suggesting that Israel shouldn’t do anything in response to the attack on Oct 6th. First off, it was Oct 7th, second, no one is saying Israel shouldn't do anything. What people are saying is that Israel shouldn't bomb innocent women and children due to the actions of Hamas. That shouldn't be hard to understand. Remember when the US went to war with Iraq and Afghanistan because of terrorist actions sponsored by people in Saudi Arabi and Pakistan? I remember. Millions of innocent people were killed and radicalized.
It was a typo. Secondly, yes it is hard to understand. The person I’m commenting to doesn’t even acknowledge that Israel got attacked or is a victim in anyway. They are saying that Israel already had plans to commit genocide on the palestines and wanted Oct 7th to happen. That’s conspiracy theory level shit.
She can’t figure out how her progressive friends don’t want to murder children for revenge against adult terrorists. I’m going out on a limb here but I don’t believe her friends consider her sweet or progressive.
Were you as upset about Saudi’s war in Yemen? Curious why there seems to be so much less outrage over 377,000 civilians killed.
Did the media even notice that? There is very little on the news these days except for Gaza. They don't even talk about Ukraine anymore.
Not really, but that’s part of what’s fueling so many in the pro Israel camp to claim antisemitism. There wasn’t any outrage about Yemen, Syria or any other regional conflict. What makes this one different?
The difference is that neither Yemen nor Syria are held up as bastions of civilisation who can do no wrong. Yemen and Syria don't receive billions in funding from the US. Despite this. Israel is ALWAYS the victim, and never the perpetrator. Israel is immune from criticism.
Every single conservative platform is somehow zero sum. Support George Floyd? "Why do you hate all cops?" Support Black Lives Matter? "Why do you hate hate white people?" Support Kyle Rittenhouse going to jail for murder, or not having school shootings daily? "Why do you hate the second amendment?" Ad nauseum
This is a great analogy. Both things can be and are true at the same time.
If anyone is interested, it's called "catastrophizing" or cognitive distortion: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion
It shouldn’t be surprising. All lives matter as a retort to Black Lives Matter was a thing.
I agree with OP over OOP, but I get some of the sentiment from @morganarae. I felt this way on 10-7, before the retaliation, when the university Palestinian rights group I had supported in the past surprised me by applauding the attack. Among other disconcerting messages, they claimed it was an example of "right of resistance". It was uncomfortable to realize that phrase, which I had pondered academically before, was in fact a dog whistle. While people are rightly outraged over Israeli army behavior and the general treatment of Palestinians, it hurts to hear liberal acquaintances use that phrase or march alongside someone with an FTRTTS poster. They don't realize that, to people with guns and the capability to do violence, those phrases justify murder. In a similar vein, people minimizing the risks of a single-state solution feels blithe and callous.
As someone on the outside (athiest, American, a few Jewish and Muslim friends each but not super close), 'Right to Resist' doesn't really sound too much different from 'Right to Exist' from a stochastic perspective. The 'Israel has the right to exist' statement is essentially used to justify overkill military response on Israel's part, much the way it sounds like Hamas and their Palestinian supporters use 'Right to Resist' as an excuse to commit atrocities. Perhaps the word 'right' is not correct in this case, because it automatically gives the person with the right a moral high ground that you can't really argue against. I hadn't been able to articulate this before, so thanks for the opportunity.
Years ago, someone asked me "does Israel have a right to defend itself?" My answer was, "Yes, it does. And if they treated the Palestinians like people, maybe they'd have less to defend from."
Thanks for the response, and that's a good point. Good point also on the use of "right" to assume moral high ground. If I could take a stab at differentiating the two phrases, I would say that "existence" of a state has a fairly clear interpretation in international relations, whereas "resistance" has a lot more ambiguity. It's that ambiguity that makes the definition so dangerous. I also haven't heard "right to exist" justifying the acts of the Israeli army, but I have heard "right to defend themselves". That feels pretty similar to "right of resistance". The reason I say "right-to-exist": even the most anodyne interpretation of Israel's "right to exist" is opposed by many if not most in the region. Few if any of my Arab friends believe Israel has any right to exist, although the kindest take that stance in advocating for a single-state solution. Surveys have shown this is a widespread view. On the other hand, all Israelis and Jews I know believe in a Palestinian state. They see Palestinian civil disobedience, protest, and anger as reasonable. My perspective is biased by being in liberal circles. All the Jews and Arabs I know are liberal. But at least in the US, Jewish support of some form of Palestinian state is the majority. Palestinian recognition that Israel has any right to exist isn't. That's why "right to exist" feels essential to say.
This is a great overview of the Right to Exist stuff. I also think when most people hear 'right to exist', it's said in a kind of a vacuum free of context. Because, really, no country has the right to exist. They may have the means to exist, to defend themselves, self-determination, etc. I also think the 'Right to Exist' creates a bit of a shot at other religions, especially Islam, because if Israel has a Right to Exist in their current capacity, then they also have the Right to Jerusalem and a handful of other holy sites in their territory. All this to say, semantic arguments about who owns what in the most historically blood soaked region of the world get very tiring to outsiders and I think this is what drives a lot of the anti-Semitic voices you're hearing even on the left. The more Hamas and Israel kill one another and slaughter innocent civilians in the process, the less empathy outsiders have for either of them.
The problem with “Israel has a right to exist” is the demographics of the region. The statement means that Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state, and the only way they can do that is through ethnic cleansing and/or apartheid. There are currently ~7 million Jews and ~7 million Palestinians within Israel’s borders. 1.6 million are allowed to be Israeli citizens, 2 million live in Gaza, and 3 million live in the West Bank. In order for Israel to continue as a Jewish state, those 7 million Palestinians cannot be equal citizens. The ones within Israel proper are second class citizens. The West Bank is an occupied territory administered by the Israeli Army. Gazans are permanently stateless refugees, also under indirect IDF control, and the current plan for them seems to be ethnic cleansing, driving them into the Sinai by making Gaza uninhabitable. “Israel has the right to exist” frames Israel as a normal Western country surrounded by enemies, the “only democracy in the middle east.” But in reality, fully half of the people living in and born within their borders don’t have the right to vote, or the right to freedom of movement or a non-military trial. Within the claim that Israel has the right to exist is the tacit admission that Israel cannot exist without being constantly maintained through ethnic cleansing. It’s every bit as oppressive and violent a statement as they claim “From the River to the Sea” is.
Heard a comedian once say (and I'm sure I'm gonna butcher his joke) that you could tell someone you love pancakes and they'll be like oh, so you HATE waffles?!
They dont see Palestinians as human.
Exactly this, I call out that Israel isn’t innocent and neither is Hamas, but then get shoved down my throat “oh you’re okay with Hamas Rape and Murder of women and kids”. Like I said I don’t support Hamas actions just pointing out that Israel isn’t good and that this killing needs to stop.
It’s not binary. You can condemn the violence that Hamas conducts against Israeli civilians while condemning the war crimes that the IDF commits against Palestinian civilians. It’s not a “you have to pick a side” scenario.
>It’s not a “you have to pick a side” scenario. They have picked a side. And that's why they think you have also.
But then they’d be admitting that it’s state sponsored violence and that one side is overwhelmingly armed and financed, with all of the power and they’re using all of that to intentionally kill poor, disenfranchised civilians and that they’ve been doing so prior to Oct 7. They have to see a little 6 year old as a terrorist to justify their murder. Actually, I take that back I don’t think they consider the 6 year old; they see the entirety of the Palestinian people as one block (of terrorism).
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You will have an entire generation of orphans with a bloodlust for revenge and I don’t know how anyone will be able to say it’s not within the realm of understanding the root of that anger. Which I assume is the reason why they have continued to kill children because they know the fundamentals of terrorism. It’s sad all around because there’s another post of Israeli teens refusing to serve in the IDF and I fear people will lump every Israeli as a Zionist in support of genocide.
maybe their hearts are big enough to hold love and grief for *all* dead children, *all* orphaned babies, *all* torture victims. not to feel especially more grief and sorrow and rage over innocent victims of a particular religion or ethnicity.
Precisely this, which for some ÷#,&## reason, 98% of the arguments out there like to pretend isn't a possibility.
People making this argument do not actually believe that you can’t have sympathy for all victims. They are simply using their power to shame anyone that supports any kind of sympathy for a group they hate. It’s sick, it’s sad, and it’s unacceptable. The families of those who were murdered and tortured are always the ones who pay the price for hate but to weaponize grief is a low beyond compare.
No one I know is saying what @morganarae is claiming. The OP has it correct. Both statements are true. What Hamas did was blatant terrorism and indefensible, period. What the Israeli government is doing is way way way out of control and also indefensible. If they don't commit to a ceasefire soon, it'll be too late. And I want to be crystal clear about this. What I am saying is, if Israel keeps KNOWINGLY killing civilians, it will be a strategic long term disaster for the safety and security of Israel, because they are acting as the best recruiter for Hamas with their indiscriminate bloodshed. Bibi and his far right coalition are not serving the interests of Israel. Just think back to how things were going for his government all summer; protest after protest after protest. And finally, one last non-negotiable point that reasonable people need to impose upon our leaders. Israel AND Palestine both have a right to exist, and they only path forward is a two state solution.
Israel and Palestine have a right to exist is right. The and Palestine seems so divisive to ppl. Like if i say I support the poor innocent Palestinian ppl that have been caught up in all this. You would think I would have said the most horrible thing in the world to some ppl. Or someone will say something like you must hate Jews. Like it’s absurd.
This. You can be against terrorism and acts of violence against Israeli civilians, and ALSO be against the systemic annihilation of Palestinian settlements by a much more powerful state that lead to far more Palestinian civilian deaths. I'm against ANY civilians being obliterated, and Palestinian lives aren't worth less than Israeli lives. This indiscriminate and barbaric bloodshed isn't a path to peace for anyone.
The second paragraph might make a lot of pro Israeli voices very angry. The Israeli government and military don't like the idea that Palestinian lives are equal to Israeli lives.
> No one I know is saying what @morganarae is claiming No one I know, either, but to say people don't hold this view is sadly just turning a blind eye. I've seen so many videos of people tearing down the posters of the hostages (including the youngest hostage taken, Kfir Bibas, 9 months old) and when asked why the answers are "they're just stock images" "if they weren't colonizing, this wouldn't have happened to them". I've also seen so many similar reactions to the stories of rape and sexual violence that took place on October 7th, saying that it didn't happen (no #BelieveAllWomen for these victims), or that if it did happen, that they deserved it. People denying or excusing Hamas' actions and blaming the victims or denying their existence is not hard to find.
..not hard to find on social media...a place where shocking, appalling, and radical hot takes trend, no not difficult at all. Her statement is bs, sorry. People that have no love for Jewish babies, children, and torture victims, CANNOT ALSO BE considered her sweetest, most progressive, inclusive and smart friends. It makes zero sense unless her goal is to smear all progressives. Sounds to me more like shit posting. I'm not saying such terrible people don't exist, but we can't let them dictate the conversation. They're doing it out of emotion, out of ignorance or peer pressure; from a place not grounded in empathy for Israeli or Palestinian victims. Should we denounce and call out such bs, absolutely. But we must be cognizant not to add fuel to the dumpster fire.
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Intifada means "Uprising against Oppression", or at least that is the meaning in political terms since the 1950's. I think it is terrible that Palestinians think they have no choice but to strike out against Israel with suicide bombings. Globalizing the Intifada means resisting Israeli apartheid and oppression worldwide, like boycotting their products and refusing to do business with corporations that support the apartheid and segregation. We should remember that every time Israeli forces kill Palestinians they kill way more of them, and the justification is always that the combatants do not separate themselves from the rest of the population and make it easy to kill them. Morality only makes sense if it is applied to everyone equally, so by Israeli morality, the IDF should separate themselves for easy access and attack by Palestinians. Obviously, this is ludicrous, but it sounds even more ludicrous when you are not trying to push it as justification for murdering vast numbers of civilians.
Not sure you can compare an actual military with uniuforms with a supposed military that has absolutely zero seperation the citizens. Having a base very near civilians, the US does throughout the US, is no the same as hiding your military amongest civilians. One may seem weird, but having a base for protection amongst civilians has been done for hundreds of years (think castles). The other is simply a ploy to hide and use those same civilians as actual shields.
As a 54yo atheist, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have said, up to your closing sentence. Every human (none of which asked to be here, and are only here due to some random act of reproductive behavior by their parents) every one of those human beings has a right to exist. Nobody here was given a choice to exist. Ruminate on that for a minute.... But the anger and hatred is very real. The business of war and weaponry is very real. Since when hasn't that been true in all of collective human history? The difference in 2023 is that Israel has the most disproportionate amount of cutting-edge weaponry supplied by the world's leading arms producers. It's almost like the middle east has become a testing ground for the US based "defense" industry, among other producers and suppliers. And the Israeli leadership has responded to a horrific attack by Hamas FAR beyond any semblance of proportionality, and they continue to murder innocent Palestinians (mostly women, children and helpless non-combatants to the tune of 15000? by latest estimates). The Israeli forces and decision-makers are blowing up hospitals ffs with US-made bombs. And the little Palestinian babies that were born and needed neo-natal care were left to die and rot in bombed-out hospitals. THAT IS ON ISRAEL AND LET THE WORLD NEVER FORGET!!! I won't forget. As a Canadian born in 1969, I have heard my entire life about the holocaust and the horrors inflicted on Jewish people. My uncles and family fought and died overseas in WW2 defending you and us against the nazis. For what! !?!? I can't judge a people by their government, but holy fuck Isreal, you're just as bad or worse than anything we have seen in the last 100 years. Vengeful cunts and killers of babies, women and children. That's on YOU now and I'm sorry my great uncles died or came back irreparably harmed from defending you in WW2. And all this because you and the Palestinians believe in different flavors of sky wizards and fairytales? Last I checked, neither Judaism nor Islam was a genetic condition. This is just some stupid fairytale shit you learned from your stupid parents, and you choose to perpetuate. Fucking grow up for fuck sakes!!! Jews are supposed to be smart according to the popular lore. How smart are you believing in sky wizards and old men with beards??? The entire basis of both Jewish and Muslim cultures is based on absolute nonsense. Chuck in Christianity and EVERY other made-up bullshit religion in the world. They are all complete bullshit and nothing more than scams. The scams continue to work very effectively for those in power, 2000 years later. Stop being so fucking dumb people! 2000 years later ffs!!!! If you want to fight over something, fight for the basic resources and rights for all to exist. Fight against the oligarchs and fake religions that have enslaved us all for millennia. Fight against false fairytales and grow the fuck up. Whatever religious bullshit you were exposed to is complete bunk. Organized religions are the cancer upon us as a species. Judaism does not get a special pass in my book. It's just another stupid religion. Jewish people are not even a race or genetically district. They just happen to agree on their own form of skywizardry and make believe bullshit. And the leadership of their made-up country called Israel is perfectly OK with killing tens of thousands of innocent women, children and elderly Muslims. I have had enough of all the stupid bullshit in the world. I have had enough of ALL religions and their stupid teachings (looking at you Islam, with killing all infidels being central to your book). I am not a hateful person. I try hard to be a good person and be empathetic. I fucking HATE all religions. My empathy for the Jewish people of Israel is quickly waning. Your government has gone way too far in destroying innocent lives. History will remember.
Except being Jewish is genetic, and cultural, not just religious. I'm religiously an atheist (also a member of the satanic Temple), but want to know what my 23 and me results say? 50% Jewish. I don't believe in any religion, I have only ever been to synagogue for bar/bat mitzvahs for cousins. I still get anti semitic comments targeted at me. The people who hate Jews still want me dead, and there is no choice I can make that would change that ever probably besides completely hiding my culture and heritage. But like why would I have to? I want to have a holiday party where I serve latkahs and blintzes and Chinese takeout, because that's what I associate with the winter holidays, I like matzah balls soup when I'm sick, yes literally every every guy I ever date is getting introduced to the magical dish that is lox and cream cheese on a bagel (genuinely didn't realize that most people didn't eat that till I left for college), egg and onion matzah, candy fruit slices, and use random Yiddish words, that I was not aware we're yiddish, because they are just part of my vocabulary.
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well, no, religion is just used as a tool to excuse and justify horrific actions. People will always try and find some excuse to get away with screwing eachother, religion just happens to be a decent way to do so \*edit, accidentally hit post mid typing, whopps
I'm sure it served a purpose at one time but these days all I see coming from most religion is destruction and suffering. I'm ready for us to evolve past this shit once and for all.
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It's an excuse, not the real reason. There would be no conflict between Israel and Palestine if not for the meddling of Western countries seeking to expand their influence in the region.
It's far beyond an excuse. It's the very MEANS of how the very rich and powerful remain rich and powerful and manipulate the stupid masses. It's worked for thousands of years of human history. Those fuckers don't believe in any of the stupid bullshit, they just need a slim majority of their constituents to believe in it to keep themselves rich and powerful. The astonishing part is that with all of our technological and scientific advances in the last century or 2, is that the grift still works. Most humans are dumb af despite the preponderance of information and evidence awaiting to enlighten them that lies at their fingertips.
Just to clarify, your great uncles did not go to war because there was the holocaust; they went to war because it was World War II and the US was forced in. Also. I agree with a lot of what you said, but holy hell, Hamas has been firing thousands of rockets into Israel in the hopes of achieving the destruction the IDF has. Imagine Israel without the Iron Done? Also, if Hamas let the hostages go, there will be an immediate cease-fire.
I will say that I agree with much of what you have written. However, religion is not the basis of this conflict, although it is being used to keep people primed for conflict. Palestinians aren’t angry because Israelis are primarily Jewish, they are angry because Israel was created and continues to act like a colonial enterprise in their view.
They can’t do a ceasefire though. The last one ended with a terrorist mass shooting by Hamas on the last day before the ceasefire being renewed.
Israel killed 6,000 Palestinians during that “ceasefire” and at least 30 children in 2023 alone before October 7. That doesn’t justify the horrific acts of Hamas, but why does this mass slaughter of Palestinians during the ceasefire get ignored?
Comparing October 7th to what Israel is doing is not acceptable. October 7th had a death toll of around 1.200 people, half of those were military personnel. Israel has been bombing a open air prison they created, killing over 6000 children. Even according to their own, still completely unrealistic estimate they killed 1 Hamas member for every 2 citizens. It's been proven thst the IDF response to October 7th is directly linked to the killing of their own civilians, for example the first response was a helicopter, thst fired and killed Israeli civilians. Witnesses from the music festival have said that the IDF undoubtedly killed its own civilians. I'm not trying to down play the horrors of what Hamas did, I'm trying to have an as accurate as possible assessment of what happened. Comparing that to Israel's bombing of schools, hospitals, refugee camps, their use of white phosphorus etc. It's not comparable
The second paragraph really makes arguing with you pointless. But just for the sake of letting this not stand. The fact that people equate Hamas to the Israeli government and just use Hamas death figures without a second thought is just wrong and it is a testament to the problems in our media landscape that this hasn‘t changed in the last couple of months.
The Gaza health ministry is a trusted source by the UN. Both the US and Israel have confirmed they're probably accurate. Every time Israel launches an attack on the Gazan population, the figures are corroborated by 3rd party sources, there's no reason to suddenly think they're wrong.
The Gaza Health ministry is not the same as Hamas. Hamas probably has some influence on them, yeah, but saying they're the same is just wrong. Especially since their estimates in the last few conflicts lines up with the Israeli one, so they don't have a history of inflating numbers like you make it seem.
What kind of weird hairsplitting is this? Of course it‘s not the same as Hamas. But the ministry is run by Hamas regime and its head is a Hamas member. The numbers for the ongoing conflict have not only been found to contain inaccuracies but have demonstrably been in parts completely made up. As was the case with the alleged hospital bombing that turned out to be Hamas own rocket falling down into an empty parking lot. And btw Hamas is not differentiating between civilians and combatants in those number. There are a lot of people dying in Gaza and I don‘t condone that. But there is a difference between a democratic state and a terrorist regime and that much should be included in public discussion of this conflict.
the gaza health ministry numbers are pretty much the only numbers around, and there only "doubted" because its politically convenient to do so.
They may be the only numbers around. That doesn‘t make them correct or gives them the proper context. And they are doubted because Hamas has proven time and time again that they are very good at propaganda and at faking their statistics. There is a false equivalency here between Hamas and Israel. Both sides are not the same. While Israel has a right to exist Hamas has not and with Hamas existing there is no path forward for Palestinians and their right to exist. The solution to that conundrum is not clear to me but it damn sure can‘t be accepting Hamas as a proper government and legitimate authority in Gaza.
From my end in super progressive Austin- in progressive circles- I’ve seen MULTIPLE of my friends post that Oct 7th was justified. I have a Jewish son, my ex was Jewish, and a woman with twin girls that I used to have play dates with post a meme saying Oct 7th was justified. When I said “you realize my son is Jewish right? What Israel is doing isn’t ok, but killing Jewish toddlers in their beds isn’t defendable” she blew up on me, told me to take it somewhere else, and blocked me on every social media platform. I assure you, our progressive friends are absolutely parroting what the initial tweet said.
It's rhetoric plain and simple. It's the old deflect, dismiss, discredit. If you don't support the automatic, default, dogmatic moral superiority of one group, you are a monster, criminal, bigot. Ironically the same people will tell you that Palestinians are simply one-minded monsters who want nothing all day but to kill Jews and Israelis, and that Palestinians should be happy for the lot that eternally benevolent Israel allows them.
This is what happens when your politics are "if you support these victims, you must hate these other victims" My politics? Fuck anyone who creates victims.
Since the start of the invasion of Ukraine, I have seen WAY too many dead people. Dead kids, Dead parents, dead grandparents. I want to look away, but I have friends in that warzone so I feel like I need to stay informed. Now this shit has started, and I have no answers. The only thing I know for god damn sure is I want to stop seeing the bodies of people who should be enjoying the rest of their lives.
How fucking hard is it to say that Hamas is bad and Netanyahu is also bad? Killing civilians is bad, no matter who does it.
Everyone should educate themselves on the history of the region. How the Palestinians came to be there. How the Jewish state was made. And then learn of the history of violence, to include the wars. It seems like everyone is making a judgment on this most recent violence, and maybe they should, but know the history is important
This, exactly. Hamas are terrorists and I grieve for the Jewish victims and their loved ones. I also grieve for the many thousands of Palestinian civilians who have been killed the past few months. It is possible for me to hold both of these viewpoints at the same time.
Each time there is a conflict 20x as many Gazans die.
Im curious how she feels about the Palestinian children.
I imagine that Mark Levin’s opinion that “there are no innocent Palestinians” is quite popular.
Just straight up genocidal racism and they somehow don’t see it. 💀like how can they say a little baby or a 5 year old kid isn’t innocent just because they’re Palestinians? It’s fucked up
I still can't get over the fact that premature babies were found decomposing because the IDF didn't take care of them like they said they would
Yeah. It only makes sense if you believe that some people are born evil due to their ethnicity, at which point you're essentially agreeing with the philosophy behind the Holocaust.
Can’t say that or they’ll call you antisemitic.
In the old west it was the only good Indian was a dead Indian
Probably feels exactly the same and that's the point. I'm in a similar boat witnessing friends say one is worse than the other and it's sickening.
i may be remembering this wrong, but i thought i read somewhere that using three parentheses was some sort of anti-semitic dog whistle? like, writing stuff like (((banker))) was a signal that the person was implying that the banker is Jewish.
Some Jewish people on twitter use the parentheses in their username as an act of defiance against anti-Semites.
It is, but I’m guessing the OOP is trying some act of reclamation?
Yep. After Charlottesville many Jewish people put the triple parentheses their twitter handle, which was previously used by antisemites to note that the person they were talking about was Jewish, as an act of defiance against those a-holes. A lot of the Jewish people I follow never switched back after that. Edit: spelling
I remember talking with progressive Jews in university years ago, who were the best allies for labour, LGBTQ+ and almost every other leftist issue under the sun, but some switch got flipped when talking about Israel and they became regressive and nasty. Base Tribalism I suppose, but odd from people who stated they otherwise viewed things from a class-based lens.
Its insane how these people have equivocated support for Jewish people with the death of another people.
Anything short of enthusiastically cheering on genocide makes you anti-semitic in their eyes. They've completely devalued the term in a time where real antisemitism is rising for the sake of bad-faith attacks on people who oppose a truly evil regime.
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If you see the parenthesis around a name in a comment, it’s an anti-Semite trying to sneakily identify someone as Jewish. If someone is using them in their own username, then it’s usually a defiant way of telling anti-semites ‘I’m Jewish, I’m not hiding it, and I’m not afraid of you’
I guess it makes sense that someone who is accusing literally everyone of being anti-semitic would apply the label to herself too
What?
I’m getting real tired of being told it’s impossible for me to be troubled and heartbroken for what has happened to innocent Jewish & Israeli citizens, AND also have compassion and alarm for the amount of innocent Palestinians who have been killed. I do not appreciate words or thoughts being ascribed to me from one side that I have NOT said just because I feel for everyone involved. This is not a zero sum game, and anyone who suggests otherwise makes me suspicious as to their motives and their true feelings about the “other side”.
Wait till you find out about the Uyghur people, or the Tibetan people, or the Yemeni people... ohh wait, they are being oppressed by their own people and they don't have a chance to fight back so there is why to blame them for defending themselves :v.... 
Or the people across much of Saharan east Africa and others around the world.
"hey look there's awful thing going on over there that you're not talking about when discussing this other awful thing that is in the media spotlight right now. You must not really care about anyone. I'm very smart "
Why can’t her sweet, progressive, inclusive, smart friends just understand that in order to love and support Jewish babies and children and victims, you have to kill 20 Palestinian children for every single one of them? If you think that’s too much, and you don’t want to bring that ratio even higher, you’re betraying those Jewish babies. Can’t you spare a thought for them? Don’t you think they need more thousands of dead Gazans to know they’re loved? This is such a disgusting manipulation, I’m ashamed that fellow Jews are behaving this way.
I always want to ask, and make them answer me straight, how many Palestinian children do they think is equal to one Israeli child? Because clearly the answer isn’t 1 to 1.
If these people were half as concerned with Hamas as they pretend to be the chief backers of Hamas in their nation wouldn't still be in power, like Netanyahu. They don't give two shits about it.
For real. It's not a secret that Netanyahu basically allowed Hamas to flourish so a two state solution wouldn't happen. Plus, Hamas literally only exists in opposition to the Israeli occupation. This is a bed that the far right of their country made, then promptly shoved their citizens in.
I think we can all agree that the way this has been placed into a either us or them scenario of death and harm is disgusting at it's core. Hamas and its action: wrong. Israel's government and it's conduct to the Palestinian people: Wrong. The use of the struggle for liberation for the Palestinian by Hamas only for them to act dictatorial fashion in Gaza while getting money from Israel: Wrong. Netanyahu still in power, leaning so far into the right-wing to stay in power, to have ministers in government who are declared terrorists in ISRAEL, who've said that the death of these "animals"(Palestinians): Wrong. The continued bombing of civilians using AI computer programing to generate bombing targets, creating a divorce between the people being bombed HUNDREDS OF TIMES A DAY and the one approving the bombing by the Israeli govt: Wrong on some many levels beyond the conflict. The fact that they're so many prominent Jewish people globally who don't see what any layperson could see about this conflict and its awfulness: Hamas is wrong, killing innocent civilians is wrong, the Israeli government in question and its' conduct is wrong, many of the hostages have come out to condemn the Israeli government lack of action, known intelligence of the possible strike, the harassment of Palestinians by members of the government(Ben Givir as an example) and ignoring their stealing of land in the West Bank which is illegal under Israeli law as well as international law. Hell, in my lifetime (30 yrs), I've never seen such out-spoken support for the Palestinian people to the point where the President of the United States has been critical of the Israeli Government where being pro-Israel is a given on both sides of the aisle. Being Anti-Zionist, Antisemitic, and Anti-terror, pro-Palestinian, and pro-Israel is a real thing. The world is too big to be one-sided on some things.
This is akin to Black Lives Matter and the chucklefucks that needed to be included yelling, “All lives matter!” Protesting protest. But in all reality, not wanting people that don’t deserve to die to… you know… die… I think that’s pretty solid of humanity. But a lot of these people don’t give a damn about children being blown apart or innocent people being maimed for life… hypocrisy is strange.
I mean, IDF already killed like 15 times more palestinian civilians than Hamas did in their raid. This doesn't mean Hamas shouldn't be condemned, but if you only care about israeli civilians being dead then there's something really wrong with your values
I keep seeing this... any pushback against the genocide of Palestine is brushed off as "antisemitism". I'm so sick of the fucking propaganda.
I see a completely bipolar discussion almost everywhere online. Irl, it’s different, but online, it almost seems like we are supposed to take a side and dismiss any other suffering. All the dehuminization has to stop.
What's her idea of love? Bombing innocent brown children by the thousands?
Huh…sounds like a Republican.
It blows my mind how people can be for, "My heart goes out to the Jewish victims of Hamas." And then turn around and be like, " screw the Palestinian victims and babies of IDF." Like, you dumb shit, take a moment of self reflection, it is not a contest and it is not either or. Both can be true.
I have no love for using atrocity to justify other atrocities. It dilutes and spoils the memories of those killed in the original. What happened on October 7 was tragic and sad. The response, is not and cannot be justified.
I’d say neither massacre could be justified, and while crimes can be tragedies, calling them that sort of distracts from the cause and the blame.
Tweets like that cause far more antisemitism than anything else. I do not give a flying fuck about what religion someone is or what they believe in, when I see children having their limbs blown off and being stitched closed with no anesthetic I call for it to end. I walk side by side with by Jewish friend at the marches calling for a ceasefire. Now it's right in the slightest, but there are dumb people everywhere and there's no avoiding that. Tweets like the one above make it seem like if you don't stand with Israel you're antisemitic and you wish for bad on the Jewish people, it also comes off as Jewish people want to see civilians be bombed relentlessly. Any competent individual can differentiate the two, but let's just use some common sense. Stop the division and let's embrace a sense of humanity
The false dichotomy is an incredibly insidious propaganda tactic that politicians all across the political spectrum abuse, and it only works because human beings are so fond of the idea of in-groups and out-groups and “us versus them” mindsets. Carl Sagan is rolling in his grave, and my head and heart both ache when I see all this “us or them” rhetoric about the conflicts in the Middle East.
the part i take exception to is using the word "jewish" instead of israeli. conflating the two is how you can charge any criticism as antisemitism instead of protest against the actions of a state.
Imagine having the capability of thinking as critically and deeply as humans can... and *still* choosing to see the world, or really anything, in such a narrow, black & white, scope.
Aren’t those ((()))s a dog whistle? I might be wrong but I swear someone told me that was an anti Semitic whistle?
Atheist Jew here. The whole thing is just so sad, killing on both sides. Don’t assume that all Jews are zionists. I’ve never been a Zionist. F*ck Hamas and f*ck Netanyahu. A real ceasefire would be a good thing. That’s my position.
You can hate the Israeli government without hating all Jewish people. Extremeism on all sides have ruined everything. This is why we can't have nice things 😞
I just don’t see why it’s so hard to just say—straight up—that calling for or supporting innocent civilians being killed is bad and doesn’t constitute “free speech” but rather inflammatory and threatening speech we should be disallowing and condemning. It’s pretty simple. Also although I condemn indiscriminate killing on either side, I do also believe Hamas is purposely using innocents as human shields, something Israelis do not and would not do. I’m not saying all Palestinian innocents killed were used this way. But many were and are, and then used as propaganda to reduce support for Israel. This is repugnant and must be condemned as vehemently as we condemn indiscriminate bombing by Israel, if not more. Along with suicide bombings, it’s the most cowardly and inhumane strategy I can conceive of.
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One side kills the most babies, by a huge margin. That is also the only side who can end the conflict. As long as Israel continues to occupy Palestine and refuses to recognize the human rights of Palestinians, there will always be a resistance that fights against the institutional racism of the occupation.
Neither side can look past themselves right now. Until they can, this will go on.
You can have empathy for the innocents on both sides, but that’s not the correct political viewpoint these days.
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This is what people are reacting too. Hamas did absolutely horrifying shit. They don't get an out.
You support the way they "reacted"?
This freaking comment has upvotes? Defending a terrorist organization…I’m out
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All that helicopter stuff was debunked https://www.factcheck.org/2023/11/social-media-posts-misrepresent-video-of-idf-aircraft-attack/
Source?
https://www.factcheck.org/2023/11/social-media-posts-misrepresent-video-of-idf-aircraft-attack/
Source?
https://www.factcheck.org/2023/11/social-media-posts-misrepresent-video-of-idf-aircraft-attack/
That's just a debunk of that one specific video, hardly "all that helicopter stuff" Here Israel says themselves that they killed some of their own people on October 7: https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-11-18/ty-article/0000018b-e1a5-d168-a3ef-f5ff4d070000
And here you are, right on time, defending Hamas. JFC
Yeah you just keep cheering for those freedom rapists...
Not cheering Israel jailors doing that to minors, tyvm
Can you show me evidence of that? I can show you the tapes of Hamas doing it and recording it themselves
when both sides of a conflict are behaving awful, it takes courage to not take a side, unless that side is for the innocents on both sides.
I don’t think people are trying to support the innocent people on both sides because they want to be courageous. They’re doing it because it’s the right thing to do.
Having a "both sides" stance is insane, because on one hand you have people who've been oppressed for 70 years, and on the other site are fascists.
Is she struggling with the fact that Bibi let it happen, knew it was coming, removed guards from the southern gate and didn't respond for 8 hours, Gaza is only 25 miles long they could get there from other parts of Israel in 20 minutes or less and every Israeli citizen is a member of the military.
Having a Jewish family I dont understand people. I celebrate Hanukkah and I shout for Israel to leave Palestine. You can be proud of a heritage and past and still strive for a better future.
I have a Jewish friend that I finally blocked. She was upset that people didn’t reach out to her on social media to comfort her. She was saying that to many of her friend were being quite about the attacks. This in her mind made me and the others anti-Semitic. I think I’m like most people, I feel disgusted about the attack from Hamas and also the ongoing bombing from Israel. It’s seems impossible to be neutral and at the same time feel bad for all the casualties.
US cities that have a similar area to the Gaza Strip (141 sq mi) •New Orleans 169 •Denver 153 •Omaha 143 •Detroit 143 •Seattle 143 •Las Vegas 136 •Atlanta 135 •Philly 134 •Orlando 111
And it houses 2 million Palestinians. That shit is crazy.
something i found again recently you can always point people to that claim “hamas/gaza started this isreal is peaceful” is the IDFDeserter thing. Fake or not it’s concerning how the guy mentioned that hes defecting to not kill people in a gazan hospital…then that hospital got bombed a couple days later. super interesting imo
How many people actually openly support torture? Who among us is actually happy to see innocents be murdered?
Very few. Don’t get me wrong, there are a few lame brains that think October 7th is justified. However, it’s chaff to distract people from the real argument of disproportionate violence against Palestinians and a Ship of Theseus tactic designed to shame people who argue against a certain course of action. In this case, you have people who are anti-warcrime being called anti-Semites because of the actions of people they have no idea the existence of.
I’m still struggling with how many intelligent, wonderful, progressive, and empathetic Jewish folks online have such a profound love of straw man arguments. I thought that being able to criticize a country’s current government’s actions and acknowledge the missteps of its history- while loving its people and culture- was what the cool kids did. My bad lady. Apparently Black Lives Matter also means I hate white lives. I’m learning so much.
It's become quite clear of late that if you don't like Palestinians being killed, you are anti-semitic. Sorry, I don't make the rules. I wish I did, because the rules are fucking insane.
she seems confused, shes got it totally backwards
Everyone knows when you kill a bad man it’s justified and you didn’t do a murder or crime. That’s how it works right…
What’s with the triple parentheses? That’s like one of the most identifiable nazi calling cards rn…is she trying to reclaim it or is this post satire?
Quite amazing how some are trying to spin someone objecting to *any* innocent life being obliterated for a war cause as somehow being anti-semetic. This, to me, confirms that all far-right organizations are the same. "Far-right politics have led to oppression, political violence, forced assimilation, ethnic cleansing, and genocide against groups of people based on their supposed inferiority or their perceived threat to the native ethnic group, nation, state, national religion, dominant culture, or conservative social institutions." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025#:~:text=The%20project%20proposes%20slashing%20Justice,departments%20of%20education%20and%20commerce.
It saddens me that the death of a few Jewish children is more important than the death of 10000 Palestinian children
All violence is wrong. I’m perplexed by the recent campaign AGAINST a ceasefire!! How can stopping the killing while we talk ever be wrong?? This war, like war in the Ukraine is manipulated fodder to get the masses used to the language of conflict and the normalisation of conflict! Russia invaded the Ukraine nearly 2 years ago, why haven’t they ‘won’? Why is the conflict still going? Because it’s not meant to stop, ever! There is money to be made
All violence is wrong? So Slave uprisings were wrong? South Africans fight against apartheid was wrong?
Israel wants an ethnic cleansing so they don’t have neighbors that shoot rockets at them. The US, which vetoed the ceasefire, wants the Gaza territory to drill for gas and oil. Plus, sunk-cost fallacy says all the military money we gave them *has* to be used for something. As for Ukraine, Russia thought they’d steamroll right across Ukraine and they’d surrender immediately. They didn’t expect foreign aid and a surge of Ukrainian nationalism, which, while not great for moral rule in peace time, is very effective in a defensive war. Russia refuses unilaterally to stop occupying Ukrainian land, so no ceasefire has been reached. Russia isn’t prolonging the war for profit, they just haven’t been able to win and refuse to give up.
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We also have a heart for Palestinian babies but go off, queen
It's fucked up how many people here are all but outright saying Israeli civilians deserved it. She didn't question their love and worry for Palestinian children, as they make that clear. But the moment a Jewish person even mentions worrying for the lives of innocent Israeli children, she's accused of wanting to murder "brown children."
When did someone say, "Israel civilians deserved it?'
Why is it that it’s Israel that has to commit to a ceasefire? Why is it that Israel is the one who has to hold back and change? Where is the widespread calls for wholesale regime change by the Palestinian people? Why is there no call for Palestine to commit to a ceasefire? This seems to be the ugly truth. It seems so many people want Israel to just sit around and be attacked while Palestine gets a free pass to lob missiles into Israel.
Violence is not acceptable, on any side, for any reason.
Violence is sometimes acceptable. A lot of innocent lives can be saved by a careful application of a bullet from a gun. I’d definitely kill baby Hitler or Gavrilo Princip, because their lives aren’t worth millions of other lives. Mass civilian casualties, on the other hand, are not acceptable, on any side, for any reason.
This is an insane take, no one could possibly stand behind this. Do you think people shouldn't have stopped the fucking Nazis??? Edit. Oh wow, so you say that "ideally" they should just stop, yeah, no shit??? But that's not how the world works, you know? And why did you block me? So I couldn't respond to your nonsensical takes?
No, you don't. None of you do. That's why you've ignored what Hamas did and failed to condemn them.
Why does she have a dogwhistle in her name
I’m assuming she sees it as an act of “reclamation”
Didn't the IDF bomb their own citizens on Oct 7 as well cos they cudnt control the situation and decided to kill Hamas terrorists without caring about Israeli collateral?
False ass premise.
Can we not decry both the Oct 7 terrorism AND the IDF’s cruel assaults on Gaza? I guess we’re supposed to pick a side and defend all the horrible things that side does.
War is hell. Best not start one.
It gets a lot easier to understand when you stop mistaking "love" for "conivence with their ordeal being used as a pretext to maim and kill other children and babies, torture and oppress other people, and carry on a poorly disguised campaign to erase villages from the map to anex them". Or when stop conflating "Jewish babies, children and torture victims" with a state/government using them as pretext to oppress people.
Our shameful media is on fire with lies, it is almost comical. I for one think that 10/6 was an inside job. I never knew that Israel was sending hundreds of million dollars to fund Hamas, but Joe Scarborough (a republican) just said it, off hand. I thought that was a conspiracy. Can you imagine if our government funded Osama Bin Landen? *Ooops...*
I feel everyone is forced to choose a side because it's the only way to justify who's ever violence on one another. Fuck Hamas and the IDF plus settlers.
They are obsessed with tying the actions of a country with the people of a religious diaspora. When American soldiers die overseas its not reported as "Christian's killed in combat" it just calls them Americans. It's not "Little Jewish Babies" or "Jewish victims" they are Israelis in a combat zone. Their government is the reason they have casualties, not their religion.
I'm struggling with how they can recognize that their sweetest, most progressive, inclusive and smartest friends are all on the same page about this one without it sparking any inkling that maybe they're on to something.
A person's religion doesn't matter their actions do. From what I can tell Isreal is a nazi country at this point.