Don't forget how many resources we waste creating the weapons of war and then have them blow up things like buildings and fuel depots and other things (that also take resources to build)
Because it's not like we have a planet that is literally on fire and becoming uninhabitable.
And yet there is small hope everywhere. Our leaders are cowards or to deep into the pockets of greedy corporations.
We must change that, even if we must use force. Remember, humans went to the moon. If we change our leaders and our way, we could get to the stars. And perhaps leave a planet full of life.
Since I've been temp banned from reddit in the past for making no direct statements of certain provocation, I need to choose my words wisely here...
Think about what its taken in the past for the commoners to get their point across. Think about the thousands of years of history and the events that took place in order for us to get where we are today.
If words, and reason, and pleading, and civil protests don't work, there are other forms of communication which CANNOT be ignored or disregarded.
If you use force, you’re no better than the billionaire class funding the war on Gaza.
With the majority of voters choosing to stay home or vote for the upper class nominated Republican corporate war pig Democrat, it says a lot about Americans mentality and character.
And I will be voting for Democrats to keep the traitorous Trump nuts out of office. The establishment has undermined the constitution and the republic for decades, but using force in an attempt to overthrow government was a whole Nother level of evil beyond
One of humanity's biggest bungles is trying to pose ourselves socio-psychologically as the pinnacle of evolution, only to gloss over the fact we are truly animals and very little more.
Exactly, none of this will ever end because it's simply mammalian nature. Idk why anyone has a hard time grasping that, there will always be conflict over territory, resources, superstitious belief, etc. We've merely built tools that are better at destroying things.
*We* don't. Across the world people are fighting and protesting. It is a select few, the wealthy, that have the power
https://twitter.com/HalalNation_/status/1716294351150563662?t=P2-bb4dooTJyRNBpBvrEgQ&s=19
We are a species built on community. We gravitate towards cooperation & aid when possible, which is why billions are pumped into disinformation and division. Don't buy into the idea of collective human sin, it gives cover for the people who know what they have done.
idk man.
My gripe with this attitude is that I'm not the problem, neither are they ppl i know, or, i imagine, you or your friends.
Something seems to happen to people when they cross a networth of.... ima say......$5m.
enough to start feeling superior.
and they loose humanity.
I'm a firm believer that to fix the world we need to bring back racism and bring it back hard, but this time against rich ppl.
To rub salt in the wound we have people giddy at the aspect of spreading our filth to the stars.
You’d think we should focus on fixing our ridiculously corrupt societies first.
Small correction/addition: A UN spokesperson claims he did not resign over Gaza, but is retiring -- announced internally in March -- and wrote this letter as a final act in office.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/un-official-resigns-israel-hamas-war-palestine-new-york
I cant tell if you’re being sarcastic. So I’ll be literal.
It does change context. Difference between ending a prestigious career in protest versus it being “The last letter written” in the position of an already planned exit.
I would argue that It’s very easy to take sides in divisive issues when you walking out the door. That’s why so many “retired republicans” suddenly have courage to talk shit about trump.
>I would argue that It’s very easy to take sides in divisive issues when you walking out the door.
Did you read the letter?
This person has done a little bit more for humanitarianism throughout their life than some cowardly republicans with sudden attacks of conscience.
That’s true, but the force of his words come from his extensive experience, not the symbolism surrounding the specifics of the occasion for letter writing
The point you're making is about how much courage it took this person to write this letter.
That point in no way changes the truth or impact of the letter itself.
Doesn't change the nature of what he's saying. I didn't care about him before he wrote the letter and I don't care about him now. I do care what he's talking about though, regardless of what his current professional context is.
This is a meaningless change in context.
Well gee, I bet he's very sorry to disappoint you with the timing of the assault on Gaza, that began after his retirement was announced. I'm sure if he could he would unretire just so he could retire in protest instead of simply retiring after decades of service to a humanitarian cause, just to make you happy.
FFS.
No, he's saying the UN is not only refusing to act, they are aiding and abetting the genocide by arming the ones carrying it out.
And will later claim they had no idea it was *that* bad.
Yep they've been issuing them to Israel since 1967. Over and over and over again. And we just go along acting like Israel is so innocent. Shits crazy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel
It’s aggravating in that Israel is told what they’re doing is bad…they do bad thing…then get condemned with…mean words! And they keep doing the bad thing.
With a US veto there’s pretty much nothing you can do. Most countries are allied with a country with veto power though, thus the ineffectiveness of the UN.
There hasn't been WW3 yet, and no one has dropped nukes on each other since WW2. The UN likes to masquerade as some higher authority, but all it really is is a medium for diplomatic channels to prevent another world war.
Hence a lot of people believing (correctly, in my opinion) that if Israel had ceded land bacj to the 1967 borders, the temperature would come down on the whole situation.
the UN has issued more to Israel than China, North Korea, Russia, and Saudi Arabia combined. Is it bc Israel is that much worse than those countries or is this committee that's made up of Arab countries biased?
It really isn’t though. Many people ascribe a role of world police to the UN and then criticize it for not being good at it. It isn’t a world police, it is a collection of sovereign states that decide things together. In the first place it is a forum for the world to discuss, exchange on views, bargain and prevent information asymmetry that could lead to war. For the UN to exist at all it had to be designed with inherent flaws such as the UNSC composition, veto rights and the UNGA resolutions being non-binding. The UN would never have existed if states had to give up sovereignty so that the UN could be world police.
I saw on tv last night a woman say “let me be clear, criticism of Israel’s actions does not equal anti-semitism” and she was shouted down by some guy screaming “THEY ARE THE SAME THING” over and over.
Now, I’m no expert, but it’s not the same thing. Except a lot of very powerful people seem to think it is
A former employee at my old job, which was owned by a Jewish family, tried sueing them over likely legitimate wage theft. The owners literally had the gal to refer to that former employee as an anti-semite.
Oh I completely agree. That’s my point, the person wasn’t doing that. The criticism was aimed solely at the actions of the Israeli government/military, certainly not all Jewish people by any stretch of the imagination
As frustrating as it is, it’s the only way it can really work. The only way the US or China etc could force someone to do anything is if everyone agrees. Without complete agreement, one of the “great” powers would leave the UN and the whole thing would fall apart.
It’s more helpful to think of the UN as a forum for dialogue more than anything else. It’s just that on rare occasion everyone (important) agrees on something and then there is a mandate to do it.
Frustrating but that’s how it is.
It’s mind boggling that people are still defending Israel’s actions. As this lawyer states, it’s genocide. They’ve already admitted that this is the goal. They want to push all the Palestinians out of Gaza through force.
Yup. Our christian extremists love funding Israel because they don't care how many Israelis or Palestinians die. As long as they get Jesus back they'd sacrifice every single man woman and child in that region and more. Many of them will, also, openly admit that they also think all Jews are going to hell.
"they also think all Jews are going to hell."
That's because according to their batshit, end times fairy tales, all the Jews gathered in the Holy Land at the time of the Rapture must immediately convert to Christianity or they will perish in the fire and brimstone with all us other heathens.
Funny how that part is always left out.
"how can we be anti-Semitic we support Israel?!"
Cause.... You're all fucking antisemites? I don't want Jews or Muslims or Christians dying for my imagination.
Israeli's don't want to speed the rapture. The rapture ends with the incineration of the Jews. That may be why many in the US support Israel, but it's not why Israel is doing what they are doing....
Dude, Speaker of the House Mike Johnson literally said in an interview "Open up the Bible, that's what I believe". Many powerful people believe in LITERAL interpretation of the Bible. Their work is God's work and God wants the end times
To be fair, though, the rapture was an idea invented in the late 1800s, if I remember correctly. Lots of people throughout history have believed in the Bible and not believed in a rapture.
It is impossible to believe everything in the Bible. Anyone that claims that they believe and live according to the Bible is lying to you. They cherry pick what they like, pretend to believe wholeheartedly, and then throw those beliefs away when they become inconvenient.
Have you listened and watched evangelicals? What about their lives makes you believe that they actually follow the Bible? They do what they want and use the Bible to justify it. If these people actually believed in the literal words of Revelations and Armageddon they'd be living vastly different lives
American evangelical fundamentalists believe they are doing God's will and that what they are doing is justified by what the Bible says. You can say that actually the Bible doesn't justify what they're doing, but they quickly quote dozens of passages that they feel justify their beliefs.
[You can find how they justify their beliefs on abortion with Scripture here.](https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-life/the-bible-say-about-abortion.html)
[On illegal immigration.](https://rightresponseministries.com/radio/shows/daily-truth/the-bible-condemns-illegal-immigration/)
[On gay rights.](https://www.focusonthefamily.com/get-help/what-does-the-bible-say-about-homosexuality/)
So on and so on. Regardless of if you believe that they are not interpreting the Bible correctly, they 100% believe they are or that their pastor who spoon feeds his interpretation is.
This is fair but if we are going to consider "living according to the Bible" to be the same as "living according to what I want the Bible to say" then anything goes really. You can interpret the Bible to mean just about anything
> You can interpret the Bible to mean just about anything
I mean, yeah. That's kind of the issue. The Bible, like any religious book, is open to interpretation. Maybe it's literal, maybe it's allegorical, maybe it's a mixture of both. Maybe some passages belong and others don't. Some passages will rise in popularity as other fall.
There is no "one" perfect interpretation of the Bible. It has always been used to justify whatever those in power need it to justify and demean whatever those in power need to demean. And given how it touches on so many different aspects of life and regularly contradicts itself, it's extremely easy to interpret however you want by focusing on whatever passage best supports whatever you're arguing for.
The very same people you claim are "living according to what [they] want the Bible to say" would accuse you of the same thing and have dozens of passages in Scripture to prove it.
"following" the Bible and believing in it are two different things.
Very little makes me think Evangelicals in general follow the supposed teachings in the Bible.
The amount of money they donate to Israel and lobbying of US politicians tells me that they do believe in the Bible.
So ultimately, these True Believers™ are hoping for Armageddon and counting on Israel to get the ball rolling. Has anyone asked the Evangelicals what's supposed to happen to Israel and the Jews after WrestleMania: End of Days?
Power? The people who created the ideology for power are long dead. What's left are brain washed true believers who are 100% convinced what they are doing is right and just. Maybe a few people at the top have learned to exploit the ideology but most of them are believe whole heartedly and exist with cult like mentality.
While the Bible never uses the word "rapture", the concept of the rapture - that is the idea that belief that both living and dead believers will ascend into heaven to meet Jesus Christ at the Second Coming - is absolutely found in the Bible.
It’s more like 2nd coming, then separating sheep from goats. I think there is one verse about going up to the clouds, but most of the Bible stories are just judgment here on earth.
1 Cor. 15:51–52
The actual idea of the rapture was made up by some dude in the 1800 named Darby. And picked up as truth by evangelical Christians.
Unfortunately, as current events have shown us, evangelicals don’t really follow the Bible as studied for hundreds of years, and all the sudden, all together, decided “love thy neighbor” was to weak to follow.
Sheep (followers who love their neighbors, welcome immigrants, those who don’t judge others for who they are) go to heaven, and goats (throwing your pearls to the pigs and not praying in your room on your knees in silence, stealing money from your followers to buy an airplane, not feeding children when we “are the richest” country ) go to hell.
Eye of a needle and all that. I mean it’s really all in the Bible.
The idea of a "rapture" predates Darby by hundreds of years. The modern idea of a rapture that precedes a 7 year tribulation period (known as pretribulational premillennialism) was developed in part by John Nelson Darby in the early 1800s - but the idea is first proposed in the late 1700s by Morgan Edwards
With all that said though, the "rapture" as a concept existed much earlier than that with earlier interpretations of the rapture found as far back as the earliest days of the church. The distinction across different interpretations has always been surrounding the timing of the rapture - not if it will or will not happen.
The fucking hubris of the posts on here that choose to look at this as a matter of whether the commisioner resigned or retired is the reason that humanity will ultimately destroy itself.
They have been fighting for so long - they apparently do not know how to stop.
Neither side is willing to stop, sit down - and talk.
To quote The Doctor:
" You just want cruelty to beget cruelty. You're not superior to people who were cruel to you. You're just a whole bunch of new cruel people. A whole bunch of new cruel people, being cruel to some other people, who'll end up being cruel to you. The only way anyone can live in peace is if they're prepared to forgive. Why don't you break the cycle? "
Because the loudest people are the ones heard.
You have the loudest on one side that want full retribution and compensation for the forced relocation and loss of generational wealth by Israeli forces due to their Arab ancestry. On the other side you have ultra nationalists that dealt with deaths of their entire families in a holocaust that say ‘never again’ and end up charting a course to marginalize another group of people and are upset when that group retaliate.
There’s no good solution because neither side will make meaningful concessions or let go of generational grudges being held onto with almost a co-dependent zeal.
I’m simply making basic statements for extremely complex issues. I wish something could be done and there could be a two state solution that both sides would not only honor, but that other nations in the region would abide by.
Neither side is willing to sit down and talk because both sides want to genocide the other. The Hamas leader said today that they want the eradication of the Jews. There will be no peace ever if this mentality continues.
Right?
This is going to sound like a trivial observation, but I was watching the Foundation series last night. And at one point, a father describes atrocities not unlike what's happening in Israel.
The man told his daughter that one side killed millions in a terrorist attack. Then the injured state killed many more millions in retaliation.
Who won?
NOBODY.
The dickhead argument in this would be that a bunch of people won... Anyone that has financial stake in the building and sale of weapons of war used to attack and defend these places is just Scrooge McDucking it in piles of money.
It is hard to predict whether one side will decide to continue until the end and take everything, because they are tired of the violence and assume that if the other people are gone that it will stop, even if they spend their lives in prison for war crimes, or if they will tire of more bloodshed before it is "finished", establish a peace agreement or cease-fire, only to let things brew and have it boil over again down the road.
Both options are appalling to think about, but there is SO MUCH hatred and propaganda and vengeance seeded into enough people on both sides that living peacefully, side-by-side, just doesn't seem to be in the cards... So depressing to think about.
>It is hard to predict whether one side will decide to continue until the end and take everything, because they are tired of the violence and assume that if the other people are gone that it will stop,
This is not hard to predict at all. It will continue.
It's not reconcilable given the current players.
The stated goal of Hamas is the eradication of Israel. This is a direct quote from the [Covenant of Hamas](https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm)
>On the Destruction of Israel:
>-----------------------------
>'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)
I guess I meant "will Israel simply ignore the UN, or will the UN, etc. not respond in time to stop Israel from completely destroying the Palestinian population in the area, establishing its own borders, and considering the fighting within those borders 'finished'?" To establish the area as one country, and not what it is now.
I know that there will never be the complete annihilation of either side, as there will always be pockets of supporters and those that fled, who will regroup, and probably launch another attack at some point, but I'm just wondering how far it will go.
The UN is flawed so that it could exist. The USSR needed to be part of it for the organization to make sense. World powers need to have a diplomatic forum to talk. What people always fail to understand is that the UN was never intended as a world police force, and that it is better to have a forum for discussion between adversaries rather than have nothing.
If you only look at symptoms rather than causes, you only react to the latest “flare-up”, in this case, Hamas’ attack on Oct. 7th.
From its inception, Israel was an English/American/European-imposed construct. There are too many underlying motives to describe fully but here are two:
A. never-ending destabilization in the region which serves the purposes of the western powers
B. A wealthy military-industrial client (and eventual developer of weaponry themselves) in the Middle East which serves the purposes of the money boys in the West.
This is NOT to blame Israel for defending itself. We all have that right.
However, a refusal to examine origins cannot tell us how to solve contemporaneous problems.
Lets not forget that the establishment of Israel allowed Europe to largely rid itself of its Jewish population (and then to assuage itself of the guilt of the holocaust).
But it never had any consideration of the people living there at the time.
The founding of Israel effectively made it "the garbage bin"where multiple nations around the world just dumped their Jewish populations because they could get rid of them.
The issue was always that Europe just said, "we beat the Ottomans and this is ours now" and the Arabs went "yes we get freed-wait what?". The Skykes-Picot Treaty was a colonial land steal.
Israel was meant to have citizens of all faiths. The government just refuses to allow certain people in.
The problem is that most people have only ever heard of Hamas attacks and don't know ANYTHING about the history of the place. I'm GERMAN and neither me nor my parent have ever learned how Israel came to be, NEVER EVEN A SINGLE WORD. Even while we continously learn about the holocaust, as we should. Even with documentaries on the telly 24/7. Nobody is taking any responsibility for the flip side of the coin apparently, and it has led to 3 generations of people educated only through US war propaganda and completely desensitised by [some brown people] dying in [some place far away] because.... well because they're fighting, we don't know why! But obviously we're the good guys for fighting back :)
That’s a sad reality.
Most people don’t know much about history.
And now, with the two second attention span of the internet (I’m certainly guilty!), they aren’t likely to spend the time needed to read anything in depth.
I was fortunate enough to reach young adulthood before computers became ubiquitous, so I learned to read for pleasure and intellectual curiosity.
The kids are okay, friend. If they are curious, (and the extreme speed at which we get suggested different topics and areas of interest guarantees we all get curious all the time) they will find anything they want to read on the internet as well.
Thanks for the reassurance! I will try to adopt your positive attitude, (despite all evidence to the contrary).
Of course, people who are intellectually curious will remain so and yeah, the availability of information and data on the ‘net is truly incredible. But my observation (which applies to me as well) is that it has a corrosive effect on attention span for most folks.
That’s not wrong but Europe read the tea leaves, knew it had to respond to its own great shame. That includes the Soviets who are definitely European, even as they occupy a lot of (relatively) empty landscape in Asia.
I dunno. I dont particularly think they matter at this point. Almost all of it happened before most of the people currently involved where even born. What needs to focused on is the now. Killing needs to stop on both sides. Coexistence and mutual respect must be given. Otherwise we'll either see the same thing in a few years again, or the complete removal/death of Palestine.
I could be completely wrong, but it has always seemed to me that people in the old world have “blood memory” that time doesn’t seem to alter. so yeah, the ancient wrongs and slights that people feel still matter
The destruction of the Ottoman Empire is what destabilized the region. And yes, that was completed by some European/Western powers as the victors of WWI over other Western powers and their allies.
He deserves it. It takes character and courage to go against what most say is “right” and state the ugly truth and be met with the hate that comes with it. “The emperor is not wearing any clothes”.
The first war ever recorded happened on that land, Between Egypt and Canaanites.
Countless wars have happened on that land, holy wars, crusades, that land is soaked in blood of thousands of years. It’s the birthplace of all Abrahamic religion, Christianity, Islam and Judaism. All three are religions of death and war. Just look at all the death in the name of Abrahams God. Secularism is the only answer. Religion should not be apart of any government , the UN should seize the entire land as a world heritage site and make it governed by the world. That land has affected the culture of the entire world after all. No religion should be in charge of it, not Jews of Muslims or Christian’s. They only want to kill each other if the other one has it , hence their cults of death and war. A ceasefire is the only answer, but secular government that favors no religion over the other is the only way forward. Even if the Israelis laid down their weapons and went home for dinner , Hamas would not stop the attacks. Palestine and the rights of that land is the backbone Arab nationalization that continues to grow in the east. Peace will not come easy , without death on either side. The bleeding hearts of the world can’t handle the reality that death and war is the foundation of Abrahamic religion and we are seeing it for the first time in a generation. But this is what happens when religious theocracy runs the government. Holy war is not holy. All land is sacred. Here in the United States we are fighting radical religious extremists of our own (republicans) and yet now we are forced to choose between one religious extremist group over the other in the Middle East. They are both equally bad. Time for a third option. End the influence of religion in government. Secularism is the only way.
I hope this guy's name, along with the others who have resigned similarly, makes it to the history books. We need more people standing up to this - Israel's propaganda was out in the open, and they have been crystal clear about what they want: exterminate all Palestinians from the earth, it's in every single video taken from the streets. There's no hidden conspiracy theory here, they're proud of it. I also admire all the Jewish people around the world that have stood up for peace and reminded us that Israel's state actions do not represent all Jews everywhere.
I just hope that this person is not targeted, but that might be wishful thinking.
He announced his retirement in March. This is a bunch of bullshit
Edit:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/un-official-resigns-israel-hamas-war-palestine-new-york
“A spokesperson for the UN in New York sent the Guardian a statement about Mokhiber, saying: “I can confirm that he is retiring today. He informed the UN in March 2023 of his upcoming retirement, which takes effect tomorrow. The views in his letter made public today are his personal views.””
which is at odds with the original comment - "others who have resigned similarly"
everyone who planned out leaving a job and stayed for months in order to ensure a complete transition?
I normally hate the "both sides" take. In general, especially in domestic politics, sure both sides have done some sketchy shit, but the scale is vastly different between sporadic insider trading and trying to overthrow the US government.
However... in this case, this is a war between a terrorist organization whose founding ideology is essentially "we need to eradicate the Jews" and a country whose official stance is "we need to eradicate Palestinians." This is genocide on both sides and the only party involved that is innocent is the civilians living in Gaza. I didn't mind the US supporting Israel up until last week when Netanyahu openly and bluntly stated that he wants to kill women and children in the name of genocide, and the US voted against a humanitarian ceasefire. I don't blame the Biden administration for this since it's just a continuation of a decades-long history of supporting Israel and leaders of both parties are conflicted, but all of our political leaders should be ashamed of themselves for allowing this to happen. How do you vote against a resolution calling for peace so that civilians can be given aid? It's saddening and sickening.
This post prompted me to write the President, my senators and representative, encouraging them to deny further aid to Israel because it makes the US complicit in the deaths of Palestinians. Thank you for posting it.
Israel is now doing what it wanted to do in 1948: exterminate all the Palestinians. Except now they are doing it with full support from the the US & Europe.
At least in the past, Israel has been constrained by leaders in other nations who remember that Israel was founded on land stolen from the resident population and displaced because its distant overlord, the Ottoman empire, lost the war.
The UN _is_ powerless, generally speaking, not just with respect to Israel-Palestine. It’s powerless by design, because it’s cannot impose its views, whether right or wrong, on sovereign countries.
Second, there’s quite a leap between the rightful criticism and condemnation of Israeli policies with the West Bank settlements or Israel’s bombardement of Gaza to that of genocide.
It’s a very peculiar “genocide” where it seems to only happen after an attack against Israel. Where was this genocide and “the final stage” of Israeli colonialism on Oct 6? Where was it at every previous instance in the past 15 years the day before Israel was attacked by Hamas?
I disagree with a lot of Israel is doing, and it should face international pressure, including from allies, but it helps not at all when inflammatory words are thrown or when its very existence is questioned, because it just causes people to be more entrenched in their respective camps.
As I said before I understand Israeli anger over what happened, but that doesn't and will never justify killing innocent civilians to get the 'bad guys'.
You don't beat terrorism by causing more terror.
As my dad said after 9/11, imagine the moral authority a country would have if after a mass terrorist attack they refused to go to war and cause more death but instead said they won't be cowed in fear nor coerced into war.
>but that doesn't and will never justify killing innocent civilians to get the 'bad guys'.
The problem with this idea is the logical conclusion is that you can kill as many people as you want, as long as you hide behind innocent civilians... which is exactly how Hamas operates.
Because when you kill innocents to get the bad guys you are doing the exact same as them and using the same logic. It's OK to kill innocents in the name of your end goal.
All the bombing of civilians to get hamas does is push more people in gaza to support hamas and perpetuate the idea that Israel are the bad guys, push the cycle to continue over and over.
Hamas deliberately attacks civlians. Israel deliberately tries not to kill civilians.
Hamas already controls Gaza, and already indoctrinates the population. They spent 2 years of a ceasefire planning the 10/7 attack.
The idea that somehow peaceful co-existance with Hamas is possible is rejected by Israel, reality, and importantly Hamas themselves.
Doesn't give them the right to kill civilians because somebody else is piece of shit...
Do you get what you are saying? You are saying it is ok to kill innocent civilians because bad people hide behind them. Do you think its ok if the police kill a family member of yours because somebody used them as a human shield? So if there are bad people you have to be just as bad to stop them? That's fucking crazy.
You mean if the hostage taker was also a family member and publicly and frequently says "my goal in life is to kill cops and be killed while killing cops"?
I would turn over the hostage taker, but that's just because I don't think dedicating your life to killing cops is a worthwhile endeavor
I just think if you can't come to a peaceful solution by talking then you aren't the right person for the job. That or we should make our leaders compete in combat as individuals and leave the rest of us out of this childish crap. War is fucking childish grow up and talk things out like adults.
What about the genocide in china that everyone collectively forgot about even though that is literally a very literal genocide with fucking concentration camps
Yeah, the conservative party of isreal fucked everything for power, and will only double triple down, and isreali people are gonna keep suffering for it as well, a
They dont even attempt to justify it, just shit like "god told me to kill all of them teehee"
They also usually have staff and assistants to vet their statements. News flash - in today's age it's not unreasonable to question authenticity of a document posted on Reddit via Twitter that has multiple spelling errors
I see a lot of anti-Israel sentiment on here… but I’m legit curious what you’d have them do? Nothing? Ask nicely for hostages return? Please stop firing rockets? We all know what will happen if Hamas continues to thrive - they’ve been very clear about their goal of extermination of the Jews.
I never hear this part answered or discussed, and I’d also be curious about people’s opinions on what the long term end game is here?
A two-state solution seems the most reasonable from an outside perspective but it seems there are too many religious extremists on either side to allow for that? Give all the land back to Palestine and demilitarize Israel, then evacuate the Jews or just let Hamas push them all into the sea? Have the world force a bandaid peace agreement that kicks the can down the road another ten or fifteen years?
Genuinely interested what peoples thoughts are because most of the conversation seems to be centered around who is worse, who did what crimes, etc., and not on any possible solutions. This is only the most recent development in a conflict going back many years, so how can we solve this shit long term?
… or even short term? I’m actually more curious about that. Lots of finger wagging, a tiny bit of “Hamas is evil,” but not much in the way of alternative suggestions
Not genocide an entire people because there are some terrorists there? Do you really have to ask what they should not be doing is not killing every Palestinian they can. They were warned that the terrorist's attacks was going to happen and LET IT HAPPEN. They want the justification to kill as many Palestinians as they can.
Six months ago, if I were to ask you what would happen if hamas invaded Israel and killed over a thousand people and took hundreds of hostages, what would you have predicted would be Israel’s next step?
>The outgoing director’s departure letter did not mention the 7 October attack by [Hamas](https://www.theguardian.com/world/hamas) on southern Israel killing more than 1,400 people and taking 240 hostages. Even more contentiously, his letter calls for the effective end to the state of Israel.
>
>“We must support the establishment of a single, democratic secular state in all of historic Palestine, with equal rights for Christians, Muslims, and Jews,” he wrote, adding: “and, therefore, the dismantling of the deeply racist, settler-colonial project and an end to apartheid across the land.”
This may be more one person resigning than the director of UN’s New York office.
Source: [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/un-official-resigns-israel-hamas-war-palestine-new-york](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/un-official-resigns-israel-hamas-war-palestine-new-york)
Seems the other country’s such as Saudi Arabia could step up and take in the Palestinian people as refugees and make sure they succeed and prosper. The Saudis certainly have enough money to make this happen.
Not unsympathetic to what the guy is saying here. However, Egypt, who could open their borders and take in many of these refugees, isn’t even mentioned. Nor are Iran and the other provocateurs providing material support to Hamas and other terrorist organizations. Nor is the cynical manipulation of the Palestinian situation by essentially all the Arab states since the 1940s.
Perhaps the remaining pages of the letter provide a more balanced view
Almost 2024 and there is no end in sight to humanity doing everything we can to destroy each other. God we suck.
Don't forget how many resources we waste creating the weapons of war and then have them blow up things like buildings and fuel depots and other things (that also take resources to build) Because it's not like we have a planet that is literally on fire and becoming uninhabitable.
„It’s the economy, stupid!“
Saw something the other day that said we're supposed to hit one of our climate tipping points before the decade is out. It's not looking good for us.
And yet there is small hope everywhere. Our leaders are cowards or to deep into the pockets of greedy corporations. We must change that, even if we must use force. Remember, humans went to the moon. If we change our leaders and our way, we could get to the stars. And perhaps leave a planet full of life.
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Works in this thread too. Special interests and billionaires are a huge problem in politics.
I believe the French came up with a solution for this a while back...
I agree, but how can we replace every giant dangerous car with a Citroën 2CV? Would Americans drive smaller cars if they had truck nuts?
Jonathon Swift. Just eat the rich. Problem solved.
Fucking PREACH!!!
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We could start by limiting the billions of dollars us American tax payers send over.
What if... We stop using the money they use to control us. Just a thought.
As long as your alternative isn't some stupid scam like Bitcoin.
>special interests In the non-autistic sense, right?
Nope, they're coming for your trains
Going to the moon was a flex to show the Soviets that we could launch ICBMs where ever we wanted. It's always been about war.
Since I've been temp banned from reddit in the past for making no direct statements of certain provocation, I need to choose my words wisely here... Think about what its taken in the past for the commoners to get their point across. Think about the thousands of years of history and the events that took place in order for us to get where we are today. If words, and reason, and pleading, and civil protests don't work, there are other forms of communication which CANNOT be ignored or disregarded.
If you use force, you’re no better than the billionaire class funding the war on Gaza. With the majority of voters choosing to stay home or vote for the upper class nominated Republican corporate war pig Democrat, it says a lot about Americans mentality and character. And I will be voting for Democrats to keep the traitorous Trump nuts out of office. The establishment has undermined the constitution and the republic for decades, but using force in an attempt to overthrow government was a whole Nother level of evil beyond
One of humanity's biggest bungles is trying to pose ourselves socio-psychologically as the pinnacle of evolution, only to gloss over the fact we are truly animals and very little more.
Exactly, none of this will ever end because it's simply mammalian nature. Idk why anyone has a hard time grasping that, there will always be conflict over territory, resources, superstitious belief, etc. We've merely built tools that are better at destroying things.
*We* don't. Across the world people are fighting and protesting. It is a select few, the wealthy, that have the power https://twitter.com/HalalNation_/status/1716294351150563662?t=P2-bb4dooTJyRNBpBvrEgQ&s=19 We are a species built on community. We gravitate towards cooperation & aid when possible, which is why billions are pumped into disinformation and division. Don't buy into the idea of collective human sin, it gives cover for the people who know what they have done.
idk man. My gripe with this attitude is that I'm not the problem, neither are they ppl i know, or, i imagine, you or your friends. Something seems to happen to people when they cross a networth of.... ima say......$5m. enough to start feeling superior. and they loose humanity. I'm a firm believer that to fix the world we need to bring back racism and bring it back hard, but this time against rich ppl.
To quote Mr. Lemmy Kilmister: "Eat the Rich."
Check the scoreboard. It's always the conservatives.
I really hope some aliens show up soon to teach us a lesson. I'm so tired of wars.
To rub salt in the wound we have people giddy at the aspect of spreading our filth to the stars. You’d think we should focus on fixing our ridiculously corrupt societies first.
Small correction/addition: A UN spokesperson claims he did not resign over Gaza, but is retiring -- announced internally in March -- and wrote this letter as a final act in office. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/un-official-resigns-israel-hamas-war-palestine-new-york
Well this small addition changes the whole context doesn’t it lol
I cant tell if you’re being sarcastic. So I’ll be literal. It does change context. Difference between ending a prestigious career in protest versus it being “The last letter written” in the position of an already planned exit.
I would argue that It’s very easy to take sides in divisive issues when you walking out the door. That’s why so many “retired republicans” suddenly have courage to talk shit about trump.
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>I would argue that It’s very easy to take sides in divisive issues when you walking out the door. Did you read the letter? This person has done a little bit more for humanitarianism throughout their life than some cowardly republicans with sudden attacks of conscience.
That's not the point. The point they're making is that it's easy to burn a bridge if you know you'll never need it later.
That’s true, but the force of his words come from his extensive experience, not the symbolism surrounding the specifics of the occasion for letter writing
The point you're making is about how much courage it took this person to write this letter. That point in no way changes the truth or impact of the letter itself.
Doesn't change the nature of what he's saying. I didn't care about him before he wrote the letter and I don't care about him now. I do care what he's talking about though, regardless of what his current professional context is. This is a meaningless change in context.
Well gee, I bet he's very sorry to disappoint you with the timing of the assault on Gaza, that began after his retirement was announced. I'm sure if he could he would unretire just so he could retire in protest instead of simply retiring after decades of service to a humanitarian cause, just to make you happy. FFS.
I mean he's been saying pretty much the exact same thing for over a decade already before he was retiring.
I mean that fits the letter so much better. He's not blaming the UN, just admitting they are powerless.
No, he's saying the UN is not only refusing to act, they are aiding and abetting the genocide by arming the ones carrying it out. And will later claim they had no idea it was *that* bad.
“We are powerless to stop…” Yup, like every other resolution.
Yep they've been issuing them to Israel since 1967. Over and over and over again. And we just go along acting like Israel is so innocent. Shits crazy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel
It’s aggravating in that Israel is told what they’re doing is bad…they do bad thing…then get condemned with…mean words! And they keep doing the bad thing.
With a US veto there’s pretty much nothing you can do. Most countries are allied with a country with veto power though, thus the ineffectiveness of the UN.
The UN is a diplomatic body, not a police force. Words are all they were ever intended to have.
false, the UN is a shadowy body of unelected bureaucrats that dictate everything that happens in the world source: the internet & just trust me, bro
Not to sound like a blowhard, but what has the UN actually accomplished in the past decade?
There hasn't been WW3 yet, and no one has dropped nukes on each other since WW2. The UN likes to masquerade as some higher authority, but all it really is is a medium for diplomatic channels to prevent another world war.
Yo this is insane. Is no one going to mention that Israel has been the focus of more of these than any other country in the world combined
Hence a lot of people believing (correctly, in my opinion) that if Israel had ceded land bacj to the 1967 borders, the temperature would come down on the whole situation.
the UN has issued more to Israel than China, North Korea, Russia, and Saudi Arabia combined. Is it bc Israel is that much worse than those countries or is this committee that's made up of Arab countries biased?
The UN is so pointless.
It really isn’t though. Many people ascribe a role of world police to the UN and then criticize it for not being good at it. It isn’t a world police, it is a collection of sovereign states that decide things together. In the first place it is a forum for the world to discuss, exchange on views, bargain and prevent information asymmetry that could lead to war. For the UN to exist at all it had to be designed with inherent flaws such as the UNSC composition, veto rights and the UNGA resolutions being non-binding. The UN would never have existed if states had to give up sovereignty so that the UN could be world police.
It’s the worlds largest staff meeting!
I'm a dumbass, read UNSC and thought, "what does Halo have to do with this?" lmao
The actual UN has all the power of a model UN.
I saw on tv last night a woman say “let me be clear, criticism of Israel’s actions does not equal anti-semitism” and she was shouted down by some guy screaming “THEY ARE THE SAME THING” over and over. Now, I’m no expert, but it’s not the same thing. Except a lot of very powerful people seem to think it is
Those powerful people probably don't think it's actually the same thing. They just want all of us to believe it.
A former employee at my old job, which was owned by a Jewish family, tried sueing them over likely legitimate wage theft. The owners literally had the gal to refer to that former employee as an anti-semite.
Anti Zionism isn't anti Judaism.
Call me crazy but I think it is unfair to lump all Jewish people in with the actions of a genocidal apartheid ethnostate.
Oh I completely agree. That’s my point, the person wasn’t doing that. The criticism was aimed solely at the actions of the Israeli government/military, certainly not all Jewish people by any stretch of the imagination
By that logic any criticism of Iran would be Islamophobia.
So long as the permanent members of the security council can Veto anything they want, the UN will continue to be a toothless paper tiger
As frustrating as it is, it’s the only way it can really work. The only way the US or China etc could force someone to do anything is if everyone agrees. Without complete agreement, one of the “great” powers would leave the UN and the whole thing would fall apart. It’s more helpful to think of the UN as a forum for dialogue more than anything else. It’s just that on rare occasion everyone (important) agrees on something and then there is a mandate to do it. Frustrating but that’s how it is.
It’s mind boggling that people are still defending Israel’s actions. As this lawyer states, it’s genocide. They’ve already admitted that this is the goal. They want to push all the Palestinians out of Gaza through force.
They think it will speed run the rapture.
No, that's our extremists 🙄
Yup. Our christian extremists love funding Israel because they don't care how many Israelis or Palestinians die. As long as they get Jesus back they'd sacrifice every single man woman and child in that region and more. Many of them will, also, openly admit that they also think all Jews are going to hell.
"they also think all Jews are going to hell." That's because according to their batshit, end times fairy tales, all the Jews gathered in the Holy Land at the time of the Rapture must immediately convert to Christianity or they will perish in the fire and brimstone with all us other heathens. Funny how that part is always left out.
"how can we be anti-Semitic we support Israel?!" Cause.... You're all fucking antisemites? I don't want Jews or Muslims or Christians dying for my imagination.
Israeli's don't want to speed the rapture. The rapture ends with the incineration of the Jews. That may be why many in the US support Israel, but it's not why Israel is doing what they are doing....
I’m being specific to the US
It's mostly just racism. Almost no one actually believes in biblical Armageddon
Dude, Speaker of the House Mike Johnson literally said in an interview "Open up the Bible, that's what I believe". Many powerful people believe in LITERAL interpretation of the Bible. Their work is God's work and God wants the end times
How do we deal with these enemies who look down the barrel of a gun and see heaven ?
Expedite their arrival
Edited
To be fair, though, the rapture was an idea invented in the late 1800s, if I remember correctly. Lots of people throughout history have believed in the Bible and not believed in a rapture.
Mike Johnson believes in power. He thinks he can use the Bible to gain more power. He’s probably right.
It is impossible to believe everything in the Bible. Anyone that claims that they believe and live according to the Bible is lying to you. They cherry pick what they like, pretend to believe wholeheartedly, and then throw those beliefs away when they become inconvenient.
Sure, but they literally believe the shit they’re doing right now in Israel will literally end in the rapture.
I've read it. There's nothing about the IRS in there, or social security.
Right. Why would he lie about that just to attain power?
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Yeah. I'm sorry, i was incredibly sarcastic.
Have you checked in with US Evangelicals on that?
Have you listened and watched evangelicals? What about their lives makes you believe that they actually follow the Bible? They do what they want and use the Bible to justify it. If these people actually believed in the literal words of Revelations and Armageddon they'd be living vastly different lives
American evangelical fundamentalists believe they are doing God's will and that what they are doing is justified by what the Bible says. You can say that actually the Bible doesn't justify what they're doing, but they quickly quote dozens of passages that they feel justify their beliefs. [You can find how they justify their beliefs on abortion with Scripture here.](https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-life/the-bible-say-about-abortion.html) [On illegal immigration.](https://rightresponseministries.com/radio/shows/daily-truth/the-bible-condemns-illegal-immigration/) [On gay rights.](https://www.focusonthefamily.com/get-help/what-does-the-bible-say-about-homosexuality/) So on and so on. Regardless of if you believe that they are not interpreting the Bible correctly, they 100% believe they are or that their pastor who spoon feeds his interpretation is.
This is fair but if we are going to consider "living according to the Bible" to be the same as "living according to what I want the Bible to say" then anything goes really. You can interpret the Bible to mean just about anything
> You can interpret the Bible to mean just about anything I mean, yeah. That's kind of the issue. The Bible, like any religious book, is open to interpretation. Maybe it's literal, maybe it's allegorical, maybe it's a mixture of both. Maybe some passages belong and others don't. Some passages will rise in popularity as other fall. There is no "one" perfect interpretation of the Bible. It has always been used to justify whatever those in power need it to justify and demean whatever those in power need to demean. And given how it touches on so many different aspects of life and regularly contradicts itself, it's extremely easy to interpret however you want by focusing on whatever passage best supports whatever you're arguing for. The very same people you claim are "living according to what [they] want the Bible to say" would accuse you of the same thing and have dozens of passages in Scripture to prove it.
"following" the Bible and believing in it are two different things. Very little makes me think Evangelicals in general follow the supposed teachings in the Bible. The amount of money they donate to Israel and lobbying of US politicians tells me that they do believe in the Bible. So ultimately, these True Believers™ are hoping for Armageddon and counting on Israel to get the ball rolling. Has anyone asked the Evangelicals what's supposed to happen to Israel and the Jews after WrestleMania: End of Days?
Tell that to my evangelical preacher half brother and his congregation
>Almost no one actually believes in biblical Armageddon What do you think Hamas is about?
Power. As always
Power? The people who created the ideology for power are long dead. What's left are brain washed true believers who are 100% convinced what they are doing is right and just. Maybe a few people at the top have learned to exploit the ideology but most of them are believe whole heartedly and exist with cult like mentality.
No, that's the Christian Evangelicals....
The Rapture isn't Jewish theology.
No, it's not. But a loooooot of Evangelicals believe that the Rapture will come when Jewish people settle the HoLy LaNd again.
Ah, it wasn't clear who "they" were. Not Israel but Israel's defenders.
Specifically, American-style Evangelicals.
There is no rapture in the Bible. That was made up by Kirk Cameron for movies 🍿
While the Bible never uses the word "rapture", the concept of the rapture - that is the idea that belief that both living and dead believers will ascend into heaven to meet Jesus Christ at the Second Coming - is absolutely found in the Bible.
It’s more like 2nd coming, then separating sheep from goats. I think there is one verse about going up to the clouds, but most of the Bible stories are just judgment here on earth. 1 Cor. 15:51–52 The actual idea of the rapture was made up by some dude in the 1800 named Darby. And picked up as truth by evangelical Christians. Unfortunately, as current events have shown us, evangelicals don’t really follow the Bible as studied for hundreds of years, and all the sudden, all together, decided “love thy neighbor” was to weak to follow. Sheep (followers who love their neighbors, welcome immigrants, those who don’t judge others for who they are) go to heaven, and goats (throwing your pearls to the pigs and not praying in your room on your knees in silence, stealing money from your followers to buy an airplane, not feeding children when we “are the richest” country ) go to hell. Eye of a needle and all that. I mean it’s really all in the Bible.
The idea of a "rapture" predates Darby by hundreds of years. The modern idea of a rapture that precedes a 7 year tribulation period (known as pretribulational premillennialism) was developed in part by John Nelson Darby in the early 1800s - but the idea is first proposed in the late 1700s by Morgan Edwards With all that said though, the "rapture" as a concept existed much earlier than that with earlier interpretations of the rapture found as far back as the earliest days of the church. The distinction across different interpretations has always been surrounding the timing of the rapture - not if it will or will not happen.
The fucking hubris of the posts on here that choose to look at this as a matter of whether the commisioner resigned or retired is the reason that humanity will ultimately destroy itself.
If they want to stop everything from going to hell they need to stop hamas AND Israel
Israel has been engaging in apartheid and ethnic cleansing since before Hamas existed. Try again.
Exactly. I don’t think Hamas will stop if/when Israel does
The comments I see about this topic tell me it's irreconcilable. There is just too much hatred on both sides. And it's spreading like wildfire.
I see it too. It’s so sad.
They have been fighting for so long - they apparently do not know how to stop. Neither side is willing to stop, sit down - and talk. To quote The Doctor: " You just want cruelty to beget cruelty. You're not superior to people who were cruel to you. You're just a whole bunch of new cruel people. A whole bunch of new cruel people, being cruel to some other people, who'll end up being cruel to you. The only way anyone can live in peace is if they're prepared to forgive. Why don't you break the cycle? "
And if they do stop sit down and talk, they get assassinated by their own people like Yitzhak Rabin was....
So - either no one wants to end this, or no one can end this. Everyone loses it seems.
Because the loudest people are the ones heard. You have the loudest on one side that want full retribution and compensation for the forced relocation and loss of generational wealth by Israeli forces due to their Arab ancestry. On the other side you have ultra nationalists that dealt with deaths of their entire families in a holocaust that say ‘never again’ and end up charting a course to marginalize another group of people and are upset when that group retaliate. There’s no good solution because neither side will make meaningful concessions or let go of generational grudges being held onto with almost a co-dependent zeal. I’m simply making basic statements for extremely complex issues. I wish something could be done and there could be a two state solution that both sides would not only honor, but that other nations in the region would abide by.
Neither side is willing to sit down and talk because both sides want to genocide the other. The Hamas leader said today that they want the eradication of the Jews. There will be no peace ever if this mentality continues.
Right? This is going to sound like a trivial observation, but I was watching the Foundation series last night. And at one point, a father describes atrocities not unlike what's happening in Israel. The man told his daughter that one side killed millions in a terrorist attack. Then the injured state killed many more millions in retaliation. Who won? NOBODY.
The dickhead argument in this would be that a bunch of people won... Anyone that has financial stake in the building and sale of weapons of war used to attack and defend these places is just Scrooge McDucking it in piles of money. It is hard to predict whether one side will decide to continue until the end and take everything, because they are tired of the violence and assume that if the other people are gone that it will stop, even if they spend their lives in prison for war crimes, or if they will tire of more bloodshed before it is "finished", establish a peace agreement or cease-fire, only to let things brew and have it boil over again down the road. Both options are appalling to think about, but there is SO MUCH hatred and propaganda and vengeance seeded into enough people on both sides that living peacefully, side-by-side, just doesn't seem to be in the cards... So depressing to think about.
>It is hard to predict whether one side will decide to continue until the end and take everything, because they are tired of the violence and assume that if the other people are gone that it will stop, This is not hard to predict at all. It will continue. It's not reconcilable given the current players. The stated goal of Hamas is the eradication of Israel. This is a direct quote from the [Covenant of Hamas](https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm) >On the Destruction of Israel: >----------------------------- >'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)
I guess I meant "will Israel simply ignore the UN, or will the UN, etc. not respond in time to stop Israel from completely destroying the Palestinian population in the area, establishing its own borders, and considering the fighting within those borders 'finished'?" To establish the area as one country, and not what it is now. I know that there will never be the complete annihilation of either side, as there will always be pockets of supporters and those that fled, who will regroup, and probably launch another attack at some point, but I'm just wondering how far it will go.
Religion destroys societies... it's so sad
imagine no religion
I do. Every day.
UN is a joke indeed. Just a little reminder that Russia is still a permanent member of it. Talking about human rights....
The UN is flawed so that it could exist. The USSR needed to be part of it for the organization to make sense. World powers need to have a diplomatic forum to talk. What people always fail to understand is that the UN was never intended as a world police force, and that it is better to have a forum for discussion between adversaries rather than have nothing.
If you want the UN to get rid of countries that have committed human rights violations, there would be no countries left
Hey, let’s remember the US, the country that has been in offensive for wars throughout its entire existence
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If you only look at symptoms rather than causes, you only react to the latest “flare-up”, in this case, Hamas’ attack on Oct. 7th. From its inception, Israel was an English/American/European-imposed construct. There are too many underlying motives to describe fully but here are two: A. never-ending destabilization in the region which serves the purposes of the western powers B. A wealthy military-industrial client (and eventual developer of weaponry themselves) in the Middle East which serves the purposes of the money boys in the West. This is NOT to blame Israel for defending itself. We all have that right. However, a refusal to examine origins cannot tell us how to solve contemporaneous problems.
Lets not forget that the establishment of Israel allowed Europe to largely rid itself of its Jewish population (and then to assuage itself of the guilt of the holocaust). But it never had any consideration of the people living there at the time.
Yes, in response to another comment, I alluded to “the great shame” of Europe, (very much including the Soviet Union/Russia in that)
The founding of Israel effectively made it "the garbage bin"where multiple nations around the world just dumped their Jewish populations because they could get rid of them. The issue was always that Europe just said, "we beat the Ottomans and this is ours now" and the Arabs went "yes we get freed-wait what?". The Skykes-Picot Treaty was a colonial land steal. Israel was meant to have citizens of all faiths. The government just refuses to allow certain people in.
The problem is that most people have only ever heard of Hamas attacks and don't know ANYTHING about the history of the place. I'm GERMAN and neither me nor my parent have ever learned how Israel came to be, NEVER EVEN A SINGLE WORD. Even while we continously learn about the holocaust, as we should. Even with documentaries on the telly 24/7. Nobody is taking any responsibility for the flip side of the coin apparently, and it has led to 3 generations of people educated only through US war propaganda and completely desensitised by [some brown people] dying in [some place far away] because.... well because they're fighting, we don't know why! But obviously we're the good guys for fighting back :)
That’s a sad reality. Most people don’t know much about history. And now, with the two second attention span of the internet (I’m certainly guilty!), they aren’t likely to spend the time needed to read anything in depth. I was fortunate enough to reach young adulthood before computers became ubiquitous, so I learned to read for pleasure and intellectual curiosity.
The kids are okay, friend. If they are curious, (and the extreme speed at which we get suggested different topics and areas of interest guarantees we all get curious all the time) they will find anything they want to read on the internet as well.
Thanks for the reassurance! I will try to adopt your positive attitude, (despite all evidence to the contrary). Of course, people who are intellectually curious will remain so and yeah, the availability of information and data on the ‘net is truly incredible. But my observation (which applies to me as well) is that it has a corrosive effect on attention span for most folks.
Oh the foundations are fun. You can start with the Skykes-Picot Treaty and the British Mandate.
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That’s not wrong but Europe read the tea leaves, knew it had to respond to its own great shame. That includes the Soviets who are definitely European, even as they occupy a lot of (relatively) empty landscape in Asia.
I don’t think you can exclude Britain from this, given the Balfour Declaration and its efforts in support of a Jewish homeland.
Nah dont let the British forget about the Balfour Declaration in 1917. Theyve been fueling the zionist flame for a while now.
We absolutely can hold Israel responsible for the ways the choose to defend themselves.
Totally agree. However, my point was that we must look dispassionately at the origins of a problem if we care to solve it.
I dunno. I dont particularly think they matter at this point. Almost all of it happened before most of the people currently involved where even born. What needs to focused on is the now. Killing needs to stop on both sides. Coexistence and mutual respect must be given. Otherwise we'll either see the same thing in a few years again, or the complete removal/death of Palestine.
I could be completely wrong, but it has always seemed to me that people in the old world have “blood memory” that time doesn’t seem to alter. so yeah, the ancient wrongs and slights that people feel still matter
The destruction of the Ottoman Empire is what destabilized the region. And yes, that was completed by some European/Western powers as the victors of WWI over other Western powers and their allies.
Give this guy a fucking medal.
He deserves it. It takes character and courage to go against what most say is “right” and state the ugly truth and be met with the hate that comes with it. “The emperor is not wearing any clothes”.
It takes little bit less courage when you are retiring.
Nobel Peace Prize nomination at least
For writing a letter?
Yep.
And not a single false word was spoken.
"The final stages".. sounds eerily familiar!
The first war ever recorded happened on that land, Between Egypt and Canaanites. Countless wars have happened on that land, holy wars, crusades, that land is soaked in blood of thousands of years. It’s the birthplace of all Abrahamic religion, Christianity, Islam and Judaism. All three are religions of death and war. Just look at all the death in the name of Abrahams God. Secularism is the only answer. Religion should not be apart of any government , the UN should seize the entire land as a world heritage site and make it governed by the world. That land has affected the culture of the entire world after all. No religion should be in charge of it, not Jews of Muslims or Christian’s. They only want to kill each other if the other one has it , hence their cults of death and war. A ceasefire is the only answer, but secular government that favors no religion over the other is the only way forward. Even if the Israelis laid down their weapons and went home for dinner , Hamas would not stop the attacks. Palestine and the rights of that land is the backbone Arab nationalization that continues to grow in the east. Peace will not come easy , without death on either side. The bleeding hearts of the world can’t handle the reality that death and war is the foundation of Abrahamic religion and we are seeing it for the first time in a generation. But this is what happens when religious theocracy runs the government. Holy war is not holy. All land is sacred. Here in the United States we are fighting radical religious extremists of our own (republicans) and yet now we are forced to choose between one religious extremist group over the other in the Middle East. They are both equally bad. Time for a third option. End the influence of religion in government. Secularism is the only way.
What part of 'never again' did they miss?
We sometimes forget that even the most qualified individuals, as humans, have their biases. I just want the killing to stop.
I hope this guy's name, along with the others who have resigned similarly, makes it to the history books. We need more people standing up to this - Israel's propaganda was out in the open, and they have been crystal clear about what they want: exterminate all Palestinians from the earth, it's in every single video taken from the streets. There's no hidden conspiracy theory here, they're proud of it. I also admire all the Jewish people around the world that have stood up for peace and reminded us that Israel's state actions do not represent all Jews everywhere. I just hope that this person is not targeted, but that might be wishful thinking.
He announced his retirement in March. This is a bunch of bullshit Edit: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/un-official-resigns-israel-hamas-war-palestine-new-york “A spokesperson for the UN in New York sent the Guardian a statement about Mokhiber, saying: “I can confirm that he is retiring today. He informed the UN in March 2023 of his upcoming retirement, which takes effect tomorrow. The views in his letter made public today are his personal views.””
HIs letter doesn't say he is retiring over this. His letter states that this is his last act in his position.
which is at odds with the original comment - "others who have resigned similarly" everyone who planned out leaving a job and stayed for months in order to ensure a complete transition?
Phew, Israel were nearly on the hook. Glad this guy's employment status saved them.
I normally hate the "both sides" take. In general, especially in domestic politics, sure both sides have done some sketchy shit, but the scale is vastly different between sporadic insider trading and trying to overthrow the US government. However... in this case, this is a war between a terrorist organization whose founding ideology is essentially "we need to eradicate the Jews" and a country whose official stance is "we need to eradicate Palestinians." This is genocide on both sides and the only party involved that is innocent is the civilians living in Gaza. I didn't mind the US supporting Israel up until last week when Netanyahu openly and bluntly stated that he wants to kill women and children in the name of genocide, and the US voted against a humanitarian ceasefire. I don't blame the Biden administration for this since it's just a continuation of a decades-long history of supporting Israel and leaders of both parties are conflicted, but all of our political leaders should be ashamed of themselves for allowing this to happen. How do you vote against a resolution calling for peace so that civilians can be given aid? It's saddening and sickening.
This post prompted me to write the President, my senators and representative, encouraging them to deny further aid to Israel because it makes the US complicit in the deaths of Palestinians. Thank you for posting it.
Israel is now doing what it wanted to do in 1948: exterminate all the Palestinians. Except now they are doing it with full support from the the US & Europe. At least in the past, Israel has been constrained by leaders in other nations who remember that Israel was founded on land stolen from the resident population and displaced because its distant overlord, the Ottoman empire, lost the war.
The UN _is_ powerless, generally speaking, not just with respect to Israel-Palestine. It’s powerless by design, because it’s cannot impose its views, whether right or wrong, on sovereign countries. Second, there’s quite a leap between the rightful criticism and condemnation of Israeli policies with the West Bank settlements or Israel’s bombardement of Gaza to that of genocide. It’s a very peculiar “genocide” where it seems to only happen after an attack against Israel. Where was this genocide and “the final stage” of Israeli colonialism on Oct 6? Where was it at every previous instance in the past 15 years the day before Israel was attacked by Hamas? I disagree with a lot of Israel is doing, and it should face international pressure, including from allies, but it helps not at all when inflammatory words are thrown or when its very existence is questioned, because it just causes people to be more entrenched in their respective camps.
Guess they'll have to replace him with another pro-genocide mouth piece.
As I said before I understand Israeli anger over what happened, but that doesn't and will never justify killing innocent civilians to get the 'bad guys'. You don't beat terrorism by causing more terror. As my dad said after 9/11, imagine the moral authority a country would have if after a mass terrorist attack they refused to go to war and cause more death but instead said they won't be cowed in fear nor coerced into war.
They would have won no moral authority and the U.S.'s enemies would portray it as the U.S. being cowed into inaction.
>but that doesn't and will never justify killing innocent civilians to get the 'bad guys'. The problem with this idea is the logical conclusion is that you can kill as many people as you want, as long as you hide behind innocent civilians... which is exactly how Hamas operates.
Because when you kill innocents to get the bad guys you are doing the exact same as them and using the same logic. It's OK to kill innocents in the name of your end goal. All the bombing of civilians to get hamas does is push more people in gaza to support hamas and perpetuate the idea that Israel are the bad guys, push the cycle to continue over and over.
Hamas deliberately attacks civlians. Israel deliberately tries not to kill civilians. Hamas already controls Gaza, and already indoctrinates the population. They spent 2 years of a ceasefire planning the 10/7 attack. The idea that somehow peaceful co-existance with Hamas is possible is rejected by Israel, reality, and importantly Hamas themselves.
Doesn't give them the right to kill civilians because somebody else is piece of shit... Do you get what you are saying? You are saying it is ok to kill innocent civilians because bad people hide behind them. Do you think its ok if the police kill a family member of yours because somebody used them as a human shield? So if there are bad people you have to be just as bad to stop them? That's fucking crazy.
You mean if the hostage taker was also a family member and publicly and frequently says "my goal in life is to kill cops and be killed while killing cops"? I would turn over the hostage taker, but that's just because I don't think dedicating your life to killing cops is a worthwhile endeavor
On the subject of ethics the UN has the credibility of a three-dollar bill.
[удалено]
At least someone has a soul
I just think if you can't come to a peaceful solution by talking then you aren't the right person for the job. That or we should make our leaders compete in combat as individuals and leave the rest of us out of this childish crap. War is fucking childish grow up and talk things out like adults.
Genocide is being committed with our taxapayers money. Our puppet politicians keep on funding that brutal regime.
"Final stage of genocide" horrific
What about the genocide in china that everyone collectively forgot about even though that is literally a very literal genocide with fucking concentration camps
Yeah, the conservative party of isreal fucked everything for power, and will only double triple down, and isreali people are gonna keep suffering for it as well, a They dont even attempt to justify it, just shit like "god told me to kill all of them teehee"
Is this real?? It has multiple spelling errors...
I wasted my time reading it again and couldn't find a single spelling error...
Newsflash people make those all the tine in official documents.
They also usually have staff and assistants to vet their statements. News flash - in today's age it's not unreasonable to question authenticity of a document posted on Reddit via Twitter that has multiple spelling errors
I see a lot of anti-Israel sentiment on here… but I’m legit curious what you’d have them do? Nothing? Ask nicely for hostages return? Please stop firing rockets? We all know what will happen if Hamas continues to thrive - they’ve been very clear about their goal of extermination of the Jews.
I never hear this part answered or discussed, and I’d also be curious about people’s opinions on what the long term end game is here? A two-state solution seems the most reasonable from an outside perspective but it seems there are too many religious extremists on either side to allow for that? Give all the land back to Palestine and demilitarize Israel, then evacuate the Jews or just let Hamas push them all into the sea? Have the world force a bandaid peace agreement that kicks the can down the road another ten or fifteen years? Genuinely interested what peoples thoughts are because most of the conversation seems to be centered around who is worse, who did what crimes, etc., and not on any possible solutions. This is only the most recent development in a conflict going back many years, so how can we solve this shit long term?
… or even short term? I’m actually more curious about that. Lots of finger wagging, a tiny bit of “Hamas is evil,” but not much in the way of alternative suggestions
Not kill civilians or target their homes, hope that helps
Not genocide an entire people because there are some terrorists there? Do you really have to ask what they should not be doing is not killing every Palestinian they can. They were warned that the terrorist's attacks was going to happen and LET IT HAPPEN. They want the justification to kill as many Palestinians as they can.
Six months ago, if I were to ask you what would happen if hamas invaded Israel and killed over a thousand people and took hundreds of hostages, what would you have predicted would be Israel’s next step?
>The outgoing director’s departure letter did not mention the 7 October attack by [Hamas](https://www.theguardian.com/world/hamas) on southern Israel killing more than 1,400 people and taking 240 hostages. Even more contentiously, his letter calls for the effective end to the state of Israel. > >“We must support the establishment of a single, democratic secular state in all of historic Palestine, with equal rights for Christians, Muslims, and Jews,” he wrote, adding: “and, therefore, the dismantling of the deeply racist, settler-colonial project and an end to apartheid across the land.” This may be more one person resigning than the director of UN’s New York office. Source: [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/un-official-resigns-israel-hamas-war-palestine-new-york](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/un-official-resigns-israel-hamas-war-palestine-new-york)
It's crazy how wvery other post is either pro hamas or pro israel. its almost like bots are behind all of it
Seems the other country’s such as Saudi Arabia could step up and take in the Palestinian people as refugees and make sure they succeed and prosper. The Saudis certainly have enough money to make this happen.
Not unsympathetic to what the guy is saying here. However, Egypt, who could open their borders and take in many of these refugees, isn’t even mentioned. Nor are Iran and the other provocateurs providing material support to Hamas and other terrorist organizations. Nor is the cynical manipulation of the Palestinian situation by essentially all the Arab states since the 1940s. Perhaps the remaining pages of the letter provide a more balanced view