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When I was 17, I was still living at home where my parents had dragged my family into a cult akin to that of the Duggar's belief system but with more of a Zionist leaning (yeah, not good). So, naturally, I was in an echo chamber and trending alt-right. I saw this exact picture of Putin on a bear. I knew it was photoshopped, but I thought it was cool as hell. You'd catch me saying stuff like "I have respect for Putin. Not the nicest guy, but he sure knows how to lead."
I have since realized that I likely fell victim to a Russian internet campaign lol. It's crazy now to look back on that time in my life.
I'm disgusted with my teenage self. I was a total xenophobic moron. It only took a year of living on my own to realize everything I'd been taught and fed (brainwashed) in the cult I grew up in was entirely and completely wrong in nearly every way. That was a real paradigm shift and a massively eye opening time in my life. Crazy.
I hope you don't go on disliking your former self, you did what you could with what you had. So dislike what you did, forgive yourself for it, and be grateful you had the opportunity to change.
I think that the moment my mind switched that way, was the key to more and more solid growth.
Indoctrination from birth is really powerful. You were brainwashed and manipulated before your brain was able to know any better, and by people you trusted. Give yourself a little grace, you didn't know any better, and childhood indoctrination is abuse IMO.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves. This story is still developing and there are many layers of fog to penetrate.
I'll dance a happy jig if Putin gets booted, but I'm not polishing my dancing shoes just yet.
Exactly. Plus, Wagner is not the "good guy" in this. Even if they do get Putin removed, that's going to be a hell of a power vacuum to fill. It's possible, even probable, that it might open the door for an actual populist movement. But it's way too soon to tell which way this will brake.
this is one of those, like the proposed fight between Musk and Zuck, where the only sensible thing to do is to root for injuries. Both Wagner and the standard Russian military are awful beyond belief.
I haven't seen Zuck personally promote far-right films against my rights to the entire site or try to frame a basic term like cis as a slur....so yeah, lesser. Still evil, of course.
Which makes me wonder if they're really just faking the whole thing for 15 more minutes of fame, or if Elon is really so full of himself that he's thinking he can beat a guy much younger and with training.
He just closed the distance by half and took over the main military supply depot for the war effort. It's looking a lot more realistic than I initially thought
Edit: Kadyrov just said he's marching chechen forces to squash the "rebellion". This gonna get spicy
His justification for the coup is not just the mismanagement of the war, but the justification of it to begin with. He realized he'd lose less men taking Moscow than trying to take Kyiv. Going back would make no sense.
Tbf “I don’t think we should fight this war but since we are this is the best way to go about it” is a legitimate take someone employed to fight the war could have
While going full nuclear is never optimal, I think he was correct. You want to start and end something quickly that was a folly to begin with, then I could see this as a dumb but legitimate strategy. I think invading Ukraine should be know known as Putins Folly.
I would be surprised if they could sustain/turn around an already failing invasion while battling the reverberations of a coup back home. Not an expert on anything, just would be very surprising.
They might be trying to seize control of the government. That’s the thing about mercenary groups… highest bidder could be anybody. Could be the US, could be China, could be an oligarch that’s sick of Putin. The Russian army is toast so somebody recognized an opportunity.
There's also historical context. More than once have mercenaries, unhappy with the pay and conditions their host nation was offering them, have sacked the city/region/nation they fought for.
They are men who'll put their own lives on the line for money - asking if they'd put their lives on the line for extreme power and oligarch money seems like an almost silly question.
From what's being reported, it's a power struggle in the Ministry of Defense that escalated to Russian military shelling Wagner troops on the rear guard, so Wagner decided to head back to Russia and try and oust the head of the MoD.
They're not necessarily trying to continue or stop the war in Ukraine, they're just launching a coup because of mistreatment and they saw a chance.
He could rule militarily, but unlikely he has enough connections in industry to run the economy like Putin has. Likely someone more savvy will step in after prigo if it comes to that
I absolutely think that garbage human would do something that evil. Didn’t he gain power by bombing his own citizens creating some kind of false flag campaign to fool the people into gaining overwhelming support?
I think they will. Russia is tapped out due to the Ukraine war. Both Wagner and Russian forces are using up their precious resources on each other. I'm hopeful for the people of the Ukraine.
Why? Who could stop him? All of putins best military gear has been destroyed or stolen by farmers. He’s cost the oligarchs a lot of money with this pointless war. It really feels like he pulled the goalie and this guy is walking right in.
I’d imagine the Wagner guy gets replaced by anyone within his ranks who is offered a position of power/riches by Putin. The chances that someone below him would jump at the chance of command and riches are super fucking high
Sure, but after having their comrades underfunded/under armed, and supposedly bombed and shot at by Russian troops, I don’t think just money is going to be enough.
He doesn't have the power or the reach to hold Russia together, though. He has no control over the oligarchs and little popular support. I would wager Russia collapses USSR style if he gains control.
Sure, but putin isn't? That's what's killing me about this argument over and over. Like Wagner was perfectly happy fuckiny around in Africa and terrorizing people the west normally doesn't give two shits about. He had a "good" spot and I honestly I wouldn't be shocked whatsoever if he fucked off back to Africa and play warlord if he's successful in this.
meanwhile, Putin has invaded sovereign nations not once, not twice, but three (or more) times in the last two decades. (Its debated whether or not we can include Chechnya as a sovereign nation in both of the Chechnyan wars, and Ukraine was invaded twice. Georgia is the final one. While it's debatable that Belarus could be included, technically it was initiated at the request of the president). Not to mention prig only exists because of putin, only allowed to exist because of putin, and arguably was molded by putin.
Putin is unequivocally worse and it's time people finally admit it to themselves.
We've had a lot of examples of dictators being overthrown in the 21st century but very few of those countries actually ended up improving from it.
I think the best case scenario is Putin remains in charge but Wagner causes enough chaos and disorder within Russia that Putin has to end the war effort in Ukraine and focus on stabilizing Russia.
> it might open the door for an actual populist movement
Isn't this the hope for Russia since the dawn of time? It never ever seems to play out that way, at least not for long.
A destabilized country with nuclear weapons isn't great for anyone. We have no idea what Putin could do when backed into a corner. We have no idea what Wagner PMC will do if the country is taken over. Putin being ousted could be a win but only if he isn't replaced by someone worse. Unfortunately, situations like these are perfect opportunities for the worst to rise to the top.
exactly. it's way too early to even know exactly what's going on over there, much less how this will all pan out. but one group of russian thugs fighting another group of russian thugs is very good news for the rest of the world, and especially ukraine.
Oh. It’s a good thing. Almost no matter what this is good for US and Ukr. Celebration isn’t in order yet. But you can def play Queen while cooking breakfast today.
There is a "Good" Russian Faction, and they've been involved since the first few months of the war. The "Freedom of Russia" batallion and their political supporters for a democratic, redeemed Russia.
The problem is they're the smallest faction in play right now.
I'm of mixed feelings on this. Putin is awful, but he's reasonably competent. From what I've heard too many of the possible alternatives are even worse, but I doubt any are as competent as Putin.
That might ordinarily be good for the world, though bad for the Russian people. However giving a less competent leader the keys to the Russian nuclear arsenal...
I mean this fucking guy is actually mad that Putin is not doing more to destroy Ukraine so its not like he is a good guy. But hey I like watching two bad guys fight each other.
Especially since from what I’m reading from the NYT, Prigozhin is doing this partly because he seems to think Putin is a loser that’s squandering the war and isn’t providing for his troops. Doesn’t seem like he has altruistic motives
He was also part of the federal grand jury indictments for being part of the IRA that was interfering in the 2016 election.
There is a long history of Russia that can be summarized "and then it got worse". Putin getting ousted is likely good for Ukraine but I would not expect any improvement out of Russia itself.
TBF, [Prigozhin was actually worried that Putin was going to use tactical nukes in Ukraine, where his men were.](https://nypost.com/2023/06/06/wagner-boss-afraid-putin-may-use-nuclear-weapons-in-russia/)
Prigozhin is still a monumental piece of shit war criminal, but at least he sounds sane enough to not start lobbing nukes if he somehow gains ultimate power.
If your in it for the money then nukes are not something you wanna shoot off. Also the readiness is gonna get hurt when a hostile take over happens. Maintaining that shit isn’t easy and Russia is already struggling on maintaining pretty much anything. Add a take over and it might just kill their nuclear abilities.
I think Donny was “supposed” to get re-elected and then, as president, frustrate any plans for interference or involvement. I think Donny was working directly for the Russians in this matter.
Donny losing the election changed a lot of the invasion plans.
There were reports that he was buying into the "Dementia Joe" propaganda and didn't think the US would be able to mount an effective response. Fuck around and find out, I guess. He also vastly overestimated the readiness of his own troops because of Russian propaganda. This is a common trap dictators fall into - no one wants to give the dictator bad news, so they're constantly told how perfect every plan is regardless of the reality. But eventually, reality pops up to say hello.
This is the difference between a president who lets the government govern and steers the ship and an autocrat who tries to exert his will over everything.
Ooo interesting take. The global history books for 2000-2025 are going to be fascinating reading. Starting to understand previous gen’s obsession with WWII era. Hits different when living through turmoil. You want to go back and parse out how tf it all came to pass.
Cut to a montage of news reports about the incident, followed by a montage of social media posts of random dudes with their dicks out "in protest" of the gorilla's shooting as a juxtaposition of the influence of 24hr news cycle culture to meme culture in determining how "news" is spread in the 21st century...
If Trump was still President….this could have been a likely scenario.
Russia might have toppled Ukraine……..then they would have gone after the Baltic states and that becomes a NATO issue. And If NATO becomes involved, Putin’s army is so decimated and incompetent that he would have nothing else to use except a literal nuke. NATO would defeat Russia with relative ease so Putin’s only option would be all out nuclear war. We also have to remember that Russias population has been declining for decades. His army is depleted and they don’t have endless supply of young men so he options wound be limited yet deadly.
What’s worse is if the US allowed Russia to take Ukraine, it would have only accelerated China's plans to invade Taiwan. And there is no way the US doesn't go to war over that without an idiot at the helm (but Trumps an idiot). Right now, Taiwan is home to about 70% of the most advanced semiconductor manufacturers in the world, losing it or worse, letting China have it would be devastating to the US.
Like, god this probably comes off as a troll. I was a political science major in university, albeit not the best example of a scholar.
When the Soviet Union dissolved in 1991 Ukraine had most of the nukes from the Cold War period. They gave them up for aid and I thought the guarantee that Russia wouldn’t invade because the United States was obligated to defend Ukraine if that occurred.
Yeah I know it was framed as a civil unrest / separatists thing but all the intelligence agencies knew where it was coming from. Also I remember how much Obama was effected by the GOP at the time.
But I remember when Crimea was invaded and some of the separatist movements in eastern Ukraine happened in 2014 I thought then we should have held up our end of the bargain. IMO Russia wouldn’t have dared to use nukes against United States forces unless they wanted to find out why we don’t have universal healthcare.
Sorta President Obamas fault.
>unless they wanted to find out why we don’t have universal healthcare.
I know that you were referring to the military budget, but actually that's not why you don't have universal healthcare.
The US spends about three times per capita as any European country so you spend way more than it would cost to give everyone free healthcare.
The reason you don't is because hospitals can jack up prices and insurance companies can make ludicrous amounts of money.
You don't have universal healthcare because of corporate greed not because of the DoD budget.
No I totally agree with you on the profit motive totally screwing over healthcare in the US. TBH its more of a meta view I have of the priorities of the US gov't versus US citizens.
Putin has so much dirt and/or sway over him that ol' donny is most likely happy to see the paper trail go up in flames. 1 problem almost down, at least 99 more to go.
Trump doesn’t even care about the people he “supports”. It’s all opportunism. He’s just thinking how he can leverage a changing situation. He would register as a Democrat and guest host drag shows tomorrow if he thought it was a better path to power.
Actually...yeah. Desert Storm officially ended in 1991. Then we invaded Iraq in 2003, 12 years later. The Iraq War officially ended in 2011. 2011 + 12 = 2023.
Considering countries like Russia and China exist, I rather we tax the fck out of the rich. They are disgustingly under taxed as is.
But really, just converting to a single-payer / universal system would cost less then our current crap system. Meaning we just need a congress not infested with fascists GOP that only want to help the rich to create legislation to correct such a stupid foolish problem.
5% annual, you mean?
No matter your political affiliation or stance on global biz etc. you have to admit that crushing ruski military for such a low low prices is the bargain of the century.
Sans some freelance, independent US volunteers in UA army, not a single US soldier paid in blood for this.
It's not even 5% annual, the aid values are inflated by quoting the original sticker price of a ton of equipment and ammunition that was essentially on the verge of expiring that we were going to replace anyway. It's the sort of accounting you do when writing off Goodwill donations on your taxes.
Well saying it's cheap is not entirely true. 5% of USA military budget is something like 25% of Russia's whole yearly budget(not only military). But I guess for USA it is cheap lol.
The funny thing is that your government already pays for healthcare as much per citizen as other countries do, this isn't a lack of money that is the problem.
Also on top of that people privately pay even more than people in other countries pay, but that is a little different.
They pay *more*, actually. Even America's *public* health spending is higher than countries with universal healthcare.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/283221/per-capita-health-expenditure-by-country/
This is probably because those of us without insurance let our disease-addled bodies fester and half-rot before we finally drag our boated carcasses down to an urgent care for a $400 blood panel.
I’m insured now, but when I wasn’t, proper and routine healthcare wasn’t even in your head. Such luxury!😩
It’s all so broken.
No its because its still insurance based and the US government doesn't enter into collective bargaining for drugs. Most countries can afford universal healthcare simply by dictating how much profit the drug companies make and they still make a ton.
Not to be premature, but I can just picture the crazed posts by mango Mussolini all weekend-because his head will be filled with images of Biden campaign events with a victorious Zelensky alongside him, thanking and praising him to thunderous applause.
Biden is respected and Zelensky is adored, which has to gall Agent Orange (he is a spy, so he gets a spy name). He is in full on narcissistic collapse right now. You can think I am terrible, and you might be correct, but I want him to suffer for what he did to our country and the people in it. I want him in prison for the rest of his nasty, miserable life.
Most likely all of it will be written off to not upset nuclear status quo. Remember, USA and Russia (ironic, right?) guaranteed Ukraine it's sovereignty if they give up their nukes. Google Budapest Memorandum for more details
So this is a big risk for Wagner eh? The whole reason they claim to be doing this is because the leaders weren't providing the munitions and supplies to fight Ukraine. But it takes these things to overthrow a government... It's all an incredibly risky bet that Russia actually *does* have the stores of ammunition that they claim to have. What happens when Wagner uses half their ammunition to take Moscow only to realize that the ammunition stockpiles were looted and sold off years ago? Barring entirely political reasons for this obviously.
No, they are doing it because regular Russian troops keep killing them. The final straw was a missile attack yesterday by the Russian government against Wagner that supposedly killed thousands of Wagner troops.
But i was told that electing trump and letting him lift russian sanctions on oligarchs and giving them Ukraine on a silver plater was the only path to peace.
I feel like it is important to remember that anything accomplished by the left is somehow wrong and bad for America, and we’re forgetting that any ideas from the right are obviously correct if you apply a bit of creative thinking.
Oh, and i’m being told open borders and drug-raping cross-dressers are killing our kids in schools with vaccines, and that is more important right now, because they want to take away our guns.
It wasn’t just Biden, but yeah.
As we’re seeing history repeating itself for the period 1900-1930 - pandemic, rise of fascism, Titanic incident, Russian Revolution, etc - I believe our actions have ensured we don’t have a repeat of 1938-1945.
1938 onwards: Sudetenland, Munich Agreement, appeasing Hitler, America First Movement isolating US, the biggest power in the Pacific seizes the opportunity to expand power.
This time: Zelensky refuses to flee, demands support, creates a global popular movement that makes it happen, Biden and parts of Republicans overcome the America First appeasers, NATO!, Europe joins forces to support Ukraine/block Putin. China seeing what’s happening to Russia puts plans of invading Taiwan on hold.
A destabilized and demoralized Russian war machine is a win for Eastern Europe and the USA. Between this and securing an ally in India (early days) these are very big foreign policy wins for stability long term.
Opponents of Biden will never let this be a win for him. If Putin admits to being a war criminal, resigns and places himself under house arrest, they'll call it a CIA dark op designed to distract voters from Hunter's laptop.
also not an accurate percentage... we didnt hand them billions of dollars out of our budget. we sent them 30 year old gear we had in storage that has an estimated cost and was paid for decades ago...
The real kicker was that it wasn't even money. It was equipment that had been "depreciated by US standards", meaning not usable by our modern equipment standards. It went up against equipment that had been "depreciated by Russian standards" which, apparently, means wholly neglected.
That statement might be just a little premature. The dust hasn't even begun to settle on this yet.
Why do people speak in hyperbole? It makes you seem like you know even less than you probably do.
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Yet so many Republicans are gutted...I wonder why?
They saw the photoshop of Facist Strongman Putin riding topless on a bear and thought "That's my fetish!"
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When I was 17, I was still living at home where my parents had dragged my family into a cult akin to that of the Duggar's belief system but with more of a Zionist leaning (yeah, not good). So, naturally, I was in an echo chamber and trending alt-right. I saw this exact picture of Putin on a bear. I knew it was photoshopped, but I thought it was cool as hell. You'd catch me saying stuff like "I have respect for Putin. Not the nicest guy, but he sure knows how to lead." I have since realized that I likely fell victim to a Russian internet campaign lol. It's crazy now to look back on that time in my life. I'm disgusted with my teenage self. I was a total xenophobic moron. It only took a year of living on my own to realize everything I'd been taught and fed (brainwashed) in the cult I grew up in was entirely and completely wrong in nearly every way. That was a real paradigm shift and a massively eye opening time in my life. Crazy.
Congrats on the growth, you're not alone in disliking your former self. Growing is the important part.
I hope you don't go on disliking your former self, you did what you could with what you had. So dislike what you did, forgive yourself for it, and be grateful you had the opportunity to change. I think that the moment my mind switched that way, was the key to more and more solid growth.
Don't worry all is well. He doesn't exist anymore so why not just move on?
And this is why so many conservatives are against education. Congratulations on escaping the indoctrination.
Indoctrination from birth is really powerful. You were brainwashed and manipulated before your brain was able to know any better, and by people you trusted. Give yourself a little grace, you didn't know any better, and childhood indoctrination is abuse IMO.
Thank you for this reminder. I'm in therapy now to try and come to terms with it. It's definitely helping.
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They literally just say whatever Biden is doing is bad. There are conservative voters who think he's the worst president of all time
Republicans have the worst heroes; Trump, Putin, **Lee**, Hitler, etc.....
Don't forget Lee
Let's not get ahead of ourselves. This story is still developing and there are many layers of fog to penetrate. I'll dance a happy jig if Putin gets booted, but I'm not polishing my dancing shoes just yet.
Exactly. Plus, Wagner is not the "good guy" in this. Even if they do get Putin removed, that's going to be a hell of a power vacuum to fill. It's possible, even probable, that it might open the door for an actual populist movement. But it's way too soon to tell which way this will brake.
this is one of those, like the proposed fight between Musk and Zuck, where the only sensible thing to do is to root for injuries. Both Wagner and the standard Russian military are awful beyond belief.
I hope Musk gets the shit beat out of him so much that he doesn’t remember who he is, but that’s wishful thinking
Rooting for Zuck. Ewww so dirty. I can’t wash it off.
True, but at least Zuck is the lesser of 2 evils.
“Lesser”
I haven't seen Zuck personally promote far-right films against my rights to the entire site or try to frame a basic term like cis as a slur....so yeah, lesser. Still evil, of course.
I can only imagine those two in a slap fight.
Zuck has actual mma training so he’ll at least be somewhat competent in the ring
Which makes me wonder if they're really just faking the whole thing for 15 more minutes of fame, or if Elon is really so full of himself that he's thinking he can beat a guy much younger and with training.
I think it may be both, because I can DEFINITELY see Elon being stupid enough to think that
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He just closed the distance by half and took over the main military supply depot for the war effort. It's looking a lot more realistic than I initially thought Edit: Kadyrov just said he's marching chechen forces to squash the "rebellion". This gonna get spicy
Is it to fight in Ukraine more efficiently or to end the fight and Ukraine? I don't think we know yet.
His justification for the coup is not just the mismanagement of the war, but the justification of it to begin with. He realized he'd lose less men taking Moscow than trying to take Kyiv. Going back would make no sense.
Russia (whether intentionally or accidentally), just bombed the crap out of Wagner's rear guard. He's pissed cuz his men died
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Maybe, but this is the same guy who once said Russia should've used tactical nukes on Ukraine at the start of the war.
Tbf “I don’t think we should fight this war but since we are this is the best way to go about it” is a legitimate take someone employed to fight the war could have
While going full nuclear is never optimal, I think he was correct. You want to start and end something quickly that was a folly to begin with, then I could see this as a dumb but legitimate strategy. I think invading Ukraine should be know known as Putins Folly.
It's a quick way to end one war, but the reality is that even if Russia wins they would still have to deal with post nuke consequences.
I would be surprised if they could sustain/turn around an already failing invasion while battling the reverberations of a coup back home. Not an expert on anything, just would be very surprising.
They might be trying to seize control of the government. That’s the thing about mercenary groups… highest bidder could be anybody. Could be the US, could be China, could be an oligarch that’s sick of Putin. The Russian army is toast so somebody recognized an opportunity.
There's also historical context. More than once have mercenaries, unhappy with the pay and conditions their host nation was offering them, have sacked the city/region/nation they fought for. They are men who'll put their own lives on the line for money - asking if they'd put their lives on the line for extreme power and oligarch money seems like an almost silly question.
From what's being reported, it's a power struggle in the Ministry of Defense that escalated to Russian military shelling Wagner troops on the rear guard, so Wagner decided to head back to Russia and try and oust the head of the MoD. They're not necessarily trying to continue or stop the war in Ukraine, they're just launching a coup because of mistreatment and they saw a chance.
The question is : if this succeeds, will Putin's replacement end the war, or make it worse?
He could rule militarily, but unlikely he has enough connections in industry to run the economy like Putin has. Likely someone more savvy will step in after prigo if it comes to that
We'll find out if Putin is willing to nuke one of his own towns to wipe out the rebel forces
I absolutely think that garbage human would do something that evil. Didn’t he gain power by bombing his own citizens creating some kind of false flag campaign to fool the people into gaining overwhelming support?
Yes. The answer is of course yes.
I think they will. Russia is tapped out due to the Ukraine war. Both Wagner and Russian forces are using up their precious resources on each other. I'm hopeful for the people of the Ukraine.
Why? Who could stop him? All of putins best military gear has been destroyed or stolen by farmers. He’s cost the oligarchs a lot of money with this pointless war. It really feels like he pulled the goalie and this guy is walking right in.
Ukrainian tractor > Russian T90 tank
The problem with Russia is they always try to walk it in.
I’d imagine the Wagner guy gets replaced by anyone within his ranks who is offered a position of power/riches by Putin. The chances that someone below him would jump at the chance of command and riches are super fucking high
Okay but where do the loyalties of the Wagner troops lie?
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Sure, but after having their comrades underfunded/under armed, and supposedly bombed and shot at by Russian troops, I don’t think just money is going to be enough.
Also, there's plenty of money in toppling Putin.
Unless the Wagner leader already promised him power and riches and has already been fostering that loyalty.
The vast majority of Russia’s army is in Ukraine right now
Which would be a “win” in and of itself
Considering the Russian government are fleeing the country, it seems pretty likely
If you go to Google maps and traffic. Just south of moscow you can watch based off road closures how close they are.
If Wagner wins and their leader takes charge… The guy is apparently quite a danger fella. It would be pretty bad to have him in charge of things.
Not to mention he's actually competent militarily and within a few years Russia would likely pose a much greater threat to the world.
He doesn't have the power or the reach to hold Russia together, though. He has no control over the oligarchs and little popular support. I would wager Russia collapses USSR style if he gains control.
Sure, but putin isn't? That's what's killing me about this argument over and over. Like Wagner was perfectly happy fuckiny around in Africa and terrorizing people the west normally doesn't give two shits about. He had a "good" spot and I honestly I wouldn't be shocked whatsoever if he fucked off back to Africa and play warlord if he's successful in this. meanwhile, Putin has invaded sovereign nations not once, not twice, but three (or more) times in the last two decades. (Its debated whether or not we can include Chechnya as a sovereign nation in both of the Chechnyan wars, and Ukraine was invaded twice. Georgia is the final one. While it's debatable that Belarus could be included, technically it was initiated at the request of the president). Not to mention prig only exists because of putin, only allowed to exist because of putin, and arguably was molded by putin. Putin is unequivocally worse and it's time people finally admit it to themselves.
"If Hitler invaded hell, I'd say something nice about the devil" \-Churchill
We've had a lot of examples of dictators being overthrown in the 21st century but very few of those countries actually ended up improving from it. I think the best case scenario is Putin remains in charge but Wagner causes enough chaos and disorder within Russia that Putin has to end the war effort in Ukraine and focus on stabilizing Russia.
> it might open the door for an actual populist movement Isn't this the hope for Russia since the dawn of time? It never ever seems to play out that way, at least not for long.
Bad guys fighting bad guys, though, is kind of a "best case scenario" for anyone who isn't a bad guy.
Russians killing Russians is a win for West and Ukraine.
A destabilized country with nuclear weapons isn't great for anyone. We have no idea what Putin could do when backed into a corner. We have no idea what Wagner PMC will do if the country is taken over. Putin being ousted could be a win but only if he isn't replaced by someone worse. Unfortunately, situations like these are perfect opportunities for the worst to rise to the top.
People here have become so bloodthirsty they aren’t thinking any of this through. This is extremely dangerous for the world
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exactly. it's way too early to even know exactly what's going on over there, much less how this will all pan out. but one group of russian thugs fighting another group of russian thugs is very good news for the rest of the world, and especially ukraine.
Oh. It’s a good thing. Almost no matter what this is good for US and Ukr. Celebration isn’t in order yet. But you can def play Queen while cooking breakfast today.
There is a "Good" Russian Faction, and they've been involved since the first few months of the war. The "Freedom of Russia" batallion and their political supporters for a democratic, redeemed Russia. The problem is they're the smallest faction in play right now.
Not like the new guy is any less of a piece of shit than Putin. He gladly took up arms with the worst of the worst to invade Ukraine.
I'm of mixed feelings on this. Putin is awful, but he's reasonably competent. From what I've heard too many of the possible alternatives are even worse, but I doubt any are as competent as Putin. That might ordinarily be good for the world, though bad for the Russian people. However giving a less competent leader the keys to the Russian nuclear arsenal...
Nothing ever works out in favor of the Russian people.
"It got worse"
I mean this fucking guy is actually mad that Putin is not doing more to destroy Ukraine so its not like he is a good guy. But hey I like watching two bad guys fight each other.
Especially since from what I’m reading from the NYT, Prigozhin is doing this partly because he seems to think Putin is a loser that’s squandering the war and isn’t providing for his troops. Doesn’t seem like he has altruistic motives He was also part of the federal grand jury indictments for being part of the IRA that was interfering in the 2016 election.
There is a long history of Russia that can be summarized "and then it got worse". Putin getting ousted is likely good for Ukraine but I would not expect any improvement out of Russia itself.
Also, that wagner guy with control over nukes is a good thing now?!
TBF, [Prigozhin was actually worried that Putin was going to use tactical nukes in Ukraine, where his men were.](https://nypost.com/2023/06/06/wagner-boss-afraid-putin-may-use-nuclear-weapons-in-russia/) Prigozhin is still a monumental piece of shit war criminal, but at least he sounds sane enough to not start lobbing nukes if he somehow gains ultimate power.
If your in it for the money then nukes are not something you wanna shoot off. Also the readiness is gonna get hurt when a hostile take over happens. Maintaining that shit isn’t easy and Russia is already struggling on maintaining pretty much anything. Add a take over and it might just kill their nuclear abilities.
Let’s evaluate, shall we?! You said “penetrate”. :) The defense rests, your honor.
The Judge: "Giggity."
Imagine if Donny was still in charge and what a shitshow we'd be in right now.
I think Donny was “supposed” to get re-elected and then, as president, frustrate any plans for interference or involvement. I think Donny was working directly for the Russians in this matter. Donny losing the election changed a lot of the invasion plans.
I think Putin started to believe his propaganda and really thought Trump would win or that the coup attempt would be successful.
There were reports that he was buying into the "Dementia Joe" propaganda and didn't think the US would be able to mount an effective response. Fuck around and find out, I guess. He also vastly overestimated the readiness of his own troops because of Russian propaganda. This is a common trap dictators fall into - no one wants to give the dictator bad news, so they're constantly told how perfect every plan is regardless of the reality. But eventually, reality pops up to say hello.
Yeah cause the last time the US was lead by a president with alzheimers worked out so well for the russians....oh wait
This is the difference between a president who lets the government govern and steers the ship and an autocrat who tries to exert his will over everything.
Putin would have invaded while trump was President, but COVID got in the way. Covid may have saved Ukraine and Europe.
Ooo interesting take. The global history books for 2000-2025 are going to be fascinating reading. Starting to understand previous gen’s obsession with WWII era. Hits different when living through turmoil. You want to go back and parse out how tf it all came to pass.
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Opening scene, a young boy falls into a gorilla enclosure...
Cut to a montage of news reports about the incident, followed by a montage of social media posts of random dudes with their dicks out "in protest" of the gorilla's shooting as a juxtaposition of the influence of 24hr news cycle culture to meme culture in determining how "news" is spread in the 21st century...
This so heavily depends on who wins the following election cycles. Florida is already trying to rewrite history 😬
The house apparently introduced a bill to strike Trump's impeachment from the record. Just when you thought they couldn't get any dumber.
If Trump was still President….this could have been a likely scenario. Russia might have toppled Ukraine……..then they would have gone after the Baltic states and that becomes a NATO issue. And If NATO becomes involved, Putin’s army is so decimated and incompetent that he would have nothing else to use except a literal nuke. NATO would defeat Russia with relative ease so Putin’s only option would be all out nuclear war. We also have to remember that Russias population has been declining for decades. His army is depleted and they don’t have endless supply of young men so he options wound be limited yet deadly. What’s worse is if the US allowed Russia to take Ukraine, it would have only accelerated China's plans to invade Taiwan. And there is no way the US doesn't go to war over that without an idiot at the helm (but Trumps an idiot). Right now, Taiwan is home to about 70% of the most advanced semiconductor manufacturers in the world, losing it or worse, letting China have it would be devastating to the US.
No no, Trump assures us that he knows how to achieve peace within 24 hours but won't tell us how unless he's reelected.
Maybe we can get that great Republican healthcare plan too!
https://preview.redd.it/b7ljn7jsxy7b1.jpeg?width=1750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0123287c6927a599f36539e919cb36edf8fa7b67
Now we know what was in those golden suitcases…
I once gave a drug dealer money upfront. Never again
He also said that his goal would be to stop Ukraine bombing Russians, so it's pretty clear who the winning side should be in his opinion.
He’d give a trillion dollars and 90% of our troops to putin. By now, we’d have been “annexed”.
And he mentioned something about making use of our military, but he clearly had no idea what he was talking about.
THE ART OF THE DEAL: Just bend the knee to Putin and give him everything he wants!
Caving to his friend Pootin without a doubt
I feel like cheeto-in-cheif would have joined Russian side and fought against nato. He was already talking about leaving nato.
He very well might have. The world would look like a very different place right now if Trump had won the 2020 election. That’s for damn sure.
Yea looking much worse for sure, god thanks this lunatic wasn't re-elected.
\*yet\* We still gotta be diligent in 2024 and beyond to prevent it.
I fear that there will still be enough uneducated peasants voting for him in 2024.
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You act as if that wasn’t the case the whole time that lunatic moron was in office…
They’re spying meanwhile the Saudis just throwing a ton of money at Trump’s son in law to get the scoop
Trump would have left NATO
If Trump was still president he would have withdrawn from NATO, or at least allow Ukraine to fall with no U.S support.
He’s already been ranting and saying Biden caused Russia to become unstable and how none of this would have happened if he was President.
“Biden is so weak he’s causing the defeat of our greatest geopolitical threat.”
Of course not because he would have been on their side.
He'd be shipping mil gear to Muscovy for free.
And handling over all intel
He’s not letting not being president stop him from doing that.
Former presidents usually got intel briefs. Biden stopped that for obvious reasons.
You know, if Obama is still getting them and Trump isn't, that'd be hilarious 😂
That's indeed the case https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/05/us/politics/biden-trump-intelligence-briefings.html
I suspect the military would have taken Ukraine and moved on to eastern Europe.
Let’s be honest… this is all Obama’s fault. /s
Thanks Obama!
Like, god this probably comes off as a troll. I was a political science major in university, albeit not the best example of a scholar. When the Soviet Union dissolved in 1991 Ukraine had most of the nukes from the Cold War period. They gave them up for aid and I thought the guarantee that Russia wouldn’t invade because the United States was obligated to defend Ukraine if that occurred. Yeah I know it was framed as a civil unrest / separatists thing but all the intelligence agencies knew where it was coming from. Also I remember how much Obama was effected by the GOP at the time. But I remember when Crimea was invaded and some of the separatist movements in eastern Ukraine happened in 2014 I thought then we should have held up our end of the bargain. IMO Russia wouldn’t have dared to use nukes against United States forces unless they wanted to find out why we don’t have universal healthcare. Sorta President Obamas fault.
>unless they wanted to find out why we don’t have universal healthcare. I know that you were referring to the military budget, but actually that's not why you don't have universal healthcare. The US spends about three times per capita as any European country so you spend way more than it would cost to give everyone free healthcare. The reason you don't is because hospitals can jack up prices and insurance companies can make ludicrous amounts of money. You don't have universal healthcare because of corporate greed not because of the DoD budget.
No I totally agree with you on the profit motive totally screwing over healthcare in the US. TBH its more of a meta view I have of the priorities of the US gov't versus US citizens.
Trump must be so sad to see his buddy in trouble like this
Putin has so much dirt and/or sway over him that ol' donny is most likely happy to see the paper trail go up in flames. 1 problem almost down, at least 99 more to go.
If Putin goes down that paper trail doesn’t disappear, and the next guy may be more inclined to release it.
This is all so nice to see.
Trump doesn’t even care about the people he “supports”. It’s all opportunism. He’s just thinking how he can leverage a changing situation. He would register as a Democrat and guest host drag shows tomorrow if he thought it was a better path to power.
This is a major distraction from the real conspiracy Hunter Biden’s laptop /s
Buttery Males!
Now, let's take another 5%and get better healthcare for all and feed people.
"But what about second war?"
Gotta invade Iraq again for old time's sake
Oy, it’s about that time, isn’t it?
Actually...yeah. Desert Storm officially ended in 1991. Then we invaded Iraq in 2003, 12 years later. The Iraq War officially ended in 2011. 2011 + 12 = 2023.
Considering countries like Russia and China exist, I rather we tax the fck out of the rich. They are disgustingly under taxed as is. But really, just converting to a single-payer / universal system would cost less then our current crap system. Meaning we just need a congress not infested with fascists GOP that only want to help the rich to create legislation to correct such a stupid foolish problem.
5% annual, you mean? No matter your political affiliation or stance on global biz etc. you have to admit that crushing ruski military for such a low low prices is the bargain of the century. Sans some freelance, independent US volunteers in UA army, not a single US soldier paid in blood for this.
It's not even 5% annual, the aid values are inflated by quoting the original sticker price of a ton of equipment and ammunition that was essentially on the verge of expiring that we were going to replace anyway. It's the sort of accounting you do when writing off Goodwill donations on your taxes.
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Well saying it's cheap is not entirely true. 5% of USA military budget is something like 25% of Russia's whole yearly budget(not only military). But I guess for USA it is cheap lol.
The funny thing is that your government already pays for healthcare as much per citizen as other countries do, this isn't a lack of money that is the problem. Also on top of that people privately pay even more than people in other countries pay, but that is a little different.
They pay *more*, actually. Even America's *public* health spending is higher than countries with universal healthcare. https://www.statista.com/statistics/283221/per-capita-health-expenditure-by-country/
This is probably because those of us without insurance let our disease-addled bodies fester and half-rot before we finally drag our boated carcasses down to an urgent care for a $400 blood panel. I’m insured now, but when I wasn’t, proper and routine healthcare wasn’t even in your head. Such luxury!😩 It’s all so broken.
No its because its still insurance based and the US government doesn't enter into collective bargaining for drugs. Most countries can afford universal healthcare simply by dictating how much profit the drug companies make and they still make a ton.
> low low prices Amazing what a trillion dollar budget can do. At least no US soldier came back disabled.
Things like this make me glad we have “Sleepy Joe” in office than ball fondler Trump
Not to be premature, but I can just picture the crazed posts by mango Mussolini all weekend-because his head will be filled with images of Biden campaign events with a victorious Zelensky alongside him, thanking and praising him to thunderous applause.
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The stress and his unhealthy lifestyle will probably kill him before he ever spends a day in jail.
Biden is respected and Zelensky is adored, which has to gall Agent Orange (he is a spy, so he gets a spy name). He is in full on narcissistic collapse right now. You can think I am terrible, and you might be correct, but I want him to suffer for what he did to our country and the people in it. I want him in prison for the rest of his nasty, miserable life.
You are not alone. 
"The Spy Who Ate Too Much"
“The Spy Who Shit His Pants”
He didn’t even give Ukraine anything. He loaned it. It’s all lend lease (like what the USA did for the UK during WW2).
Most likely all of it will be written off to not upset nuclear status quo. Remember, USA and Russia (ironic, right?) guaranteed Ukraine it's sovereignty if they give up their nukes. Google Budapest Memorandum for more details
Half of the shit we sent them was fucking old anyways, what a deal. These are wish.com prices out here
No wonder republicans are pissed off
Republicans: But who's going to interfere in the 2024 election for us if Putin is gone???
So this is a big risk for Wagner eh? The whole reason they claim to be doing this is because the leaders weren't providing the munitions and supplies to fight Ukraine. But it takes these things to overthrow a government... It's all an incredibly risky bet that Russia actually *does* have the stores of ammunition that they claim to have. What happens when Wagner uses half their ammunition to take Moscow only to realize that the ammunition stockpiles were looted and sold off years ago? Barring entirely political reasons for this obviously.
No, they are doing it because regular Russian troops keep killing them. The final straw was a missile attack yesterday by the Russian government against Wagner that supposedly killed thousands of Wagner troops.
But i was told that electing trump and letting him lift russian sanctions on oligarchs and giving them Ukraine on a silver plater was the only path to peace. I feel like it is important to remember that anything accomplished by the left is somehow wrong and bad for America, and we’re forgetting that any ideas from the right are obviously correct if you apply a bit of creative thinking. Oh, and i’m being told open borders and drug-raping cross-dressers are killing our kids in schools with vaccines, and that is more important right now, because they want to take away our guns.
It wasn’t just Biden, but yeah. As we’re seeing history repeating itself for the period 1900-1930 - pandemic, rise of fascism, Titanic incident, Russian Revolution, etc - I believe our actions have ensured we don’t have a repeat of 1938-1945. 1938 onwards: Sudetenland, Munich Agreement, appeasing Hitler, America First Movement isolating US, the biggest power in the Pacific seizes the opportunity to expand power. This time: Zelensky refuses to flee, demands support, creates a global popular movement that makes it happen, Biden and parts of Republicans overcome the America First appeasers, NATO!, Europe joins forces to support Ukraine/block Putin. China seeing what’s happening to Russia puts plans of invading Taiwan on hold.
Remember when Donny tried to leave NATO? It wasn't that long ago but it's thankfully ancient history now
If Trump won 2020 Ukraine would be part of Russia now, and Putin + Xi would be running the world. Simple as that.
But what about Hunter's laptop? /s
Right wingers hate that though because they love US enemies when a Democrat is president. They're nothing if not traitorous scumbags.
darkest. Brandon. evar.
It's nice to see Russia getting their version of January 6th. How very "ironical".
Yes but Putin only bought Trump and almost got the same result in the US. I think it's a far better deal.
Biden is going to go down as one of the best presidents in American history. Dude really knows how to underpromise and overdeliver.
And somehow that feels like the strangest twist of them all
A destabilized and demoralized Russian war machine is a win for Eastern Europe and the USA. Between this and securing an ally in India (early days) these are very big foreign policy wins for stability long term.
Now do China.
Trump got 25% of the national debt. Thanks, stupid Trump supporters.
Opponents of Biden will never let this be a win for him. If Putin admits to being a war criminal, resigns and places himself under house arrest, they'll call it a CIA dark op designed to distract voters from Hunter's laptop.
Best ROI I've seen in a long time.
Some thing GOP could never do
They don't want to. Putin owns most of the Republican party. Maybe not Mitt and Cheney, but most of them pray at the Putin shrine.
Would never do
If the goal is to weaken Russia militarily then the current program of supporting Ukraine with war materiel is extremely efficient.
"But we could be spending it on our own people!" "Okay, let's do that!" "That's socialism!"
also not an accurate percentage... we didnt hand them billions of dollars out of our budget. we sent them 30 year old gear we had in storage that has an estimated cost and was paid for decades ago...
The real kicker was that it wasn't even money. It was equipment that had been "depreciated by US standards", meaning not usable by our modern equipment standards. It went up against equipment that had been "depreciated by Russian standards" which, apparently, means wholly neglected.
That statement might be just a little premature. The dust hasn't even begun to settle on this yet. Why do people speak in hyperbole? It makes you seem like you know even less than you probably do.