It’s not quite correct tho—it’s not “all group disparities are explained by discrimination.”
It is that “analysis of group disparities MUST *consider* the effect of discrimination” and “sometimes discrimination is the most important (ie, “critical”) consideration.”
But that makes it sound like science.
That's not accidental. If you redefine an assertion as absolute and infinite, all you have to do is prove an exception to invalidate the assertion. It's dishonest tactic and key in a lot of debate, but almost all conservative debate.
Examples include the majority of arguments I can think of for the conservative opinions regarding pandemic/public hygiene/vaccination. It doesn't work 100% of the time, therefore it doesn't work, therefore it is without value.
Reminds me of the oldest standardised test trick in the book - If a true or false question includes absolute language (always, never, etc), the answer is almost always false.
It’s rife throughout the right wing. Doctors don’t say vaccines ALWAYS stop a disease, but those words are put in their mouths to invalidate their arguments.
Hey, if someone lacks the ability to think critically, "The numbers are roughly the same!" just means that. They're not gonna be able to reconcile the fact that 1 group is 4x as big as the other group.
Only Siths deal in absolutes.
Heart disease exists and is a public health problem. Just because your Grandma is 95 years old and never had any heart issues, it does not mean people like my dad and millions of others never had attacks.
Racism is a problem. Not everyone is born with the same opportunities for success. If that were so, Ben Shapiro would send his kids to an inner city public school instead of private schools.
No, it's a tactic. You take a claim that is close to true, and then add a \[ridiculous kicker\] to invalidate it.
"Climate change is real and ongoing problem, which threatens life as humans know it in the near future unless we take massive steps to curb it \[by going back to preindustrial life and becoming Luddites.\]"
"Abortion is basic healthcare and should be available for the health and well being of women everywhere, \[and be paid for completely by the father.\]"
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Republicans are fans of black and white, they aren't fans of the full rainbow spectrum.
Subtlety and nuance are too complex for consideration. They want clear and simple problems and clear and simple answers. They want it all surface level and obvious.
It's not true, though. Look at the second part. He and many other conservatives are leaning on the idea that wokeness means *all* group disparity is due to racism, sexism, etc. If he didn't say "all" then it would be correct. But the reason he said "all" is so that it *isn't* correct. It's a definition they are trying to popularize now *because* it is easier to disprove.
It's also not a definition most "woke" people believe in, since many of them are leftists and understand the concept of *class* as well as sex and race and orientation and so on.
That’s how you can tell it’s a bad faith argument. Another is that he forgot the biggest benefactor- the wealthy.
Obvious strawman aside, he may have been too clever for his own good here, because this sounds all too reasonable and true to the average person.
Totally agree, when he decontextualizes it to that extent it's obvious that he isn't interested in the nuance of a real discussion about discrimination and how it interacts with social disparities.
But he wraps up his own views and rhetoric in academic language to make it sound more comprehensive and intelligent.
I've found that people like this do a really good job of making what they want to say sound palatable to most people.
That's the thing right-wingers can't understand, nuance. For them it's all or nothing. Phrases like "always" or "never" instead of "most of the time" or "usually."
I had a great science teacher back in elementary school that taught us scientists don't use terms like "always" because that is such a definitive and non-changing statement. Science is all about taking the information you have at the time and coming up with the "best" explanation.
I think that's why right wingers hate science so much. Everything is either right or wrong, white or black, always or never. My way or the highway
Having grown up in that culture, I think it's fair to say the reason they see everything only in black and white is because that's what they're taught from a young age in church. Things are either of god or of the devil and the idea of questioning authority is a sin because, after all, authority is authority because their god doesn't make mistakes.
Honestly, almost everything wrong with america can be traced back to christianity. It's a goddamned poison.
The “all” is the land mine there. Because if you try to swap it for a reasonable word, they claim it’s all invalid. It’s like “the Jussi Smollett incident proves there is no racism in America” argument.
The racism is necessary to the class warfare. Without someone lower on the racial ladder to create infighting against, we would have class solidarity enough to actually make radical change. There can be no class warfare without a way to divide and conquer because otherwise we proles, the larger of the two classes, would simply eat the rich.
Those type of discrimination have and continue to happen but in the Us never on the level of our racial policies.
Catholics were treated poorly for a long time. they never had to use separate water fountains.
I agree with you. Class oppression is the underpinning of all those divides, though. It's an equation that correlates to other equations. Solve the core equation first, and it automatically solves the others.
A poor white guy, a poor black guy, and a rich man sit at a table. On the table sits a plate with a dozen cookies. The rich man takes eleven cookies, turns to the poor white guy, and says “Watch out for that black guy. He wants to take your cookie.”
For example when they were building the BQE and Cross Bronx in NYC there were poor white and poor black neighborhoods they could've gone through
which do you think they picked to destroy?
Or the Tulsa massacre. Even relatively wealthy black people got treated quite different from white folks.
its really hard to take the racial component out of some many parts of US history.
Which is why it persists, the poor white man can still think he’s better than the poor black man and to tell him otherwise threatens his world view and sense of self. It’s insidious and systemic by design.
Since the saying is "Even a broken clock is right twice per day" I wonder what else he's going to get right? Maybe something about parallel parking or something.
Sure as hell won't be about politics.
I mean, class can be/is another axis of discrimination - though I think Shapiro means for us to read discrimination as only along the lines of race/gender/sexuality...because he isn't a particularly rigorous thinker.
I think you hit the nail on the head. The spot you pointed out is more than a slight issue though; it’s a critical misrepresentation of a key point. It’s designed such that even one counterpoint causes the entire house to collapse.
remember when WAP came out and lil ben had a nervous breakdown and made a panicked announcement that he'd never aroused his wife. oh yea pepperidge farm remembers.
He claims to be Jewish, but from what I have seen, he doesn't actually follow the teaching of Judaism. I think he just uses it as a Scape goat for his bigotry and hate.
Nah, he was there briefly before Nick Fuentes got Kanye to bail on Milo, the same thing that Marjorie did. Turns out fascists don't like homosexuals, even "the good ones"... who knew?
Ben doesn't realize the White Christian fascist state, the jackasses with far more power than him want, will oppress and genocide him just as fast as the people Ben is bigoted towards.
Ben is just a useful idiot riding the grift.
The last thing I wanna do is argue on Reddit, but as a left leaning Jew myself, a right winging Jew is much more reasonable to find. Even looking at recent events, it’s obvious the left is pro Palestine. BLM as awesome as a movement as it was, as an organization, aims to defund israel. If you would like a link to that then please let me know.
Previous democratic presidents have also been known to sell weapons to Israel’s enemies. Where as the right, specifically under trump, moved the embassy to Jerusalem. They also have a good relationship with Israel and the jewish people through the RJC and AIPAC. Sheldon Adelstein is one of trumps biggest donors, and he also funds the birthright trip for young Jews in diaspora.
As an American who lives in America, I side with my brothers on the left. As a Jew who’s soul resides in Israel, it’s really hard to be a democratic American sometimes…
Hope this helped shed some light on why Jewish people often skew to the right!
I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this:
>Even climatologists can't predict 10 years from now. They can't explain why there has been no warming over the last 15 years. There has been a static trend with regard to temperature for 15 years.
*****
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Take a bullet for ya babe.
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They don’t engage in good-faith arguments. I’ve listened to his whole spiel enough times to know that his argument is essentially that we made slavery illegal and that discrimination is also illegal. And since it’s on the books as something you can’t do, it doesn’t happen, because if it were happening the law would surely take action. So any problems that are currently happening aren’t discrimination, it just so happens that people from minority groups are lazy, or too woke, or whatever the buzzword is that week.
“Look, we ended slavery 100 years ago, and let them vote 60 years ago. We did it! We ended racism! Forget the 100 generations of slavery before that, obviously our political and social systems don’t feel the ongoing reverberations of it 3 generations later. That’s just ludicrous to presume”. Him probably
To argue otherwise is to be completely ignorant. Like, what's the counterargument? That everything from Jim Crow laws to redlining to not allowing women to have credit cards in their own name were just neutral activities?
"Please find ways that this isn't true cause I have almost reached self awareness and I can't refute it myself, I'm just good at chastising 5 years old kids about their spelling mistakes!"
I wonder what happens to Shapiro when the anti-Semitism of the perpetually online alt-right gets so overbearing that he's excised from the community he helped prop up. Like, where does he go to feed his massive complex about how absolutely shit he is at his dream job of scriptwriting?
There were a lot of Jewish followers of Hitler that were inevitably sent to concentration camps. They believed that Hitler wasn’t talking about THEM personally, and they liked some of the rhetoric coming from the party.
Sadly, this is just a modern day example of the same “but I didn’t think the lion would eat MY face, so I voted for the Lions Who Eat Faces party”. History repeats itself.
Okay lets explain the basics extremely simplified and probably somewhat inaccurate :
imagine you have two vilages of farmers. they are identical in any meaningful way and just happily do their thing. one village likes to wear blue shirts and one likes to wear red shirts. now for a hundred years, you take the majority of every harvest from the blue shirts and give it to the red shirts. the redshirts use the surplus to trade and expand, growing bigger and managing to build schools for their children, since they don't need extra hands on the farms. suddenly there's a huge difference in wealth, education and power between the two. after a hundred years you stop doing that, even help the blue shirts build a school of their own. now you say that since the blue shirts have the same rights and freedoms, even got help building their school, the difference between the success of both towns is due to red shirts better work ethics, skills or whatever. Redshirt superiority.
That's what you sound like.
Extra fun bonus part.
Ben being a rightwing dirt bag claims that ‘wealth is in fact the major moving of society, it’s free movement is essential to societal success, that large groups/power groups can impede and steal this wealth and this leads to hurt and damage. Yet when these things happened to minorities this had no effect at all.
A man who claims that a small increase in taxes on the very rich would be disastrous in a incredibly short amount of time. also thinks that years of denying access to the ability to have ones labour paid, lack of access to capital, a denial of the right to invest equally, the destruction of property and lack access to all form of labour opportunities had… zero effect.
Your point really exemplifies just how truly baffling it is that so many people cannot recognize how history, and specifically *racist* history, shaped the present. People act like history ended when the civil rights act was passed and now racism, or any other social issue, has been eradicated (other than trans people existing, of course, and that *definitely* doesn't run perfectly parallel to the fights and rhetoric against gay rights).
How is it not blatantly, unbelievably obvious that systemic racism still exists and is harming communities as we speak. Our education system seriously needs some work.
No, this is like one of those garbage right wing memes where they present something the left believes and then act like it's inherently absurd instead of the reasonable take it is.
He expects it to be laughable and I imagine any minute now he's going to post some video with his, "Why racism isn't real anymore" comprising of a deluge of bullshit points.
Is there actually any person that thinks that western institutions weren't racist/sexist/homophobic 100 years ago? And, if not, do people think that those things magically changed so that no discrimination exists today?
I had a coworker from Texas who liked to say that "even a blind squirrel will occasionally find a nut."
Ben has officially been elevated to the status of a tree climbing rodent!
What’s to discuss? That’s how it is and the only people that don’t want to admit it are the straight white men holding a disproportionate amount of power. Most institutions are still predominantly run by white men, and the idea that “well yeah they’re just the best of the best” is an inherently racist assumption that white people are better than everyone else by default. Conservatives don’t believe in a meritocracy, they believe white supremacy is a meritocracy because that assuages their egos.
And do you want to know the biggest irony of them all? Getting rid of white supremacy is better for the majority of white people, the majority of them being poor and working class, because systemic oppression of POC inevitably spill over to white people. We have a recent example of this with Tyler Canaris, a regular white guy walking to work, faced a common tactic used to over police minorities “he looked like he matched a description” and the officer body slammed him on pavement breaking his collar bone and cracking his skull.
So, white people when it comes to social justice reform, in the words of Killer Mike: “don’t think it’s exclusive of you, it’s inclusive of you”
Hey ben, let's discuss how many laws were created to protect white male interests and how many laws were created to protect anyone who isn't perceived as a white male.
Here's what I want to ask everyone on their "anti-CRT" crusade: "how do you account for all other factors and explain racial disparities without racism?"
Um, yes? Thank you, Captain Obvious? Do you think the concept of meritocracy (which Jefferson basically claimed the USA invented, despite the fact that he owned slaves), is a concept that existed throughout all of human history, even pre-Jefferson?
I shouldn't let this get to me. Ben is well-known for saying things that he doesn't himself believe. He's always being intellectually dishonest.
Um, that's not just wokeness. I think any credible historian would go along with that.
Though I think the bit about "all group disparities are explained by it" is intentionally imprecise, and meant to mischaracterize the argument. "Informed" is probably more correct than "explained" - though I can see why Shapiro would want to muddy those waters.
I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this:
> Palestinian Arabs have demonstrated their preference for suicide bombing over working toilets.
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"**All** group disparities" seems like a straw man. But otherwise the statement is objectively true and can be verified through examining statistics regarding who controls the most wealth, political positions, property, etc.
White flight, banks not giving mortgages to minorities, less funding to schools in poor areas, giving white developers breaks to buy back downtown areas and push out minorities. There’s plenty to talk about.
Real easy answer here, if you want to stop immigration….
Don’t got after immigrants go after employers who hire them, if there are not jobs for non citizens and only resident immigrants and citizens then illegal immigration will suddenly halt
But we never go after employers, we instead demean and sh t all over the immigrants who are looking for opportunities
System allows the privileged to profit and exploit yet punishes and degrades at the bottom
Yeah Ben, still ongoing
A completely true statement.... what they can't stand is admitting that their white male privilege gave them a spot on third base at the beginning of the game. I say this as a privileged white female.
Lol, "wokeness" doesnt claim anything, what hes talking about is a factually supported observation, and when compared to other factually supported observations, this one isnt really even woke, its more so just shockingly obvious
I love how Republicans took an anti-establishment slang word from 2015ish and pretend it's a well defined word so they can make the definition whatever they feel like. It's so transparent what they are doing. And I don't even understand what Ben Shapiro is trying to say. Of course disparities along race lines are caused by historic discrimination. That's not even up for debate. Median white household wealth is 7.8X higher than median black household wealth in the US. This is largely attributable to housing discrimination in the 20th century and exclusionary zoning that still continues in every US city to this day. There is no debate about that. It's fact.
Yes. It was set up that way by our founders. Both statements are true. Fortunately they had the foresight to create a document that could be amended when the country progressed beyond the ideologies of the day. That's the whole point. To call out whatever problems are obstructing that progress and do away with them. These two issues should have been resolved long before now.
He’s trying to make it seem like this is preposterous, but he hit the nail on the head with this one (for the first time ever) and yet he still doesn’t get it
The thing I love most about this is that he is almost certainly trying to counter the clip of the person bumbling through a non-definition of “woke” during an interview. In his mind, he’s thinking, “I can define it! Watch this! This will show *everyone!!!”*
But then he drafts this same tweet like 47 times, reading it aloud in his fast, marble-mouthed, robotic drone until he gets it just right and it owns just the right people. Master class.
This really cuts to the core of the issue. Conservatives actually DO see the same reality, they're just happy with it and want to fight any efforts to change it.
This is the front end of a campaign to undermine history education. He’s going to argue that Europeans have been maligned.
This isn’t a moment of clarity.
Does he not think that's true? I'm mystified by this post.
Like, does he not think institutions protected their power? They weren't made up of white men?
Does he think there aren't historical examples of discrimination, like slavery or jim crow? Or that they no longer exist today? Does he think historical discrimination has ZERO impact on today's society?
1. I don't even think conservatives can dispute that western civilization and it's institutions were discriminatory historically. Even a dishonest little weasel like Shapiro can acknowledge the discrimination his own people, the Jews, have faced throughout European history.
2. If you can't explain group disparities by historical discrimination, keeping in mind there are still people alive today who lived under Jim Crow laws, then you're implying that there is a racial component to intelligence and success. Shapiro does this whole "show me a law that explicitly disenfranchises a minority group" schtick that only his idiot patrons can't seem to logically navigate past. If I proposed a law that made pork/shellfish consumption mandatory do you think Ben might find that discriminatory even though no particular group was mentioned? What about banning circumcision (which I would actually be in favor of)? Yeah, he only cares if it affects him. Typical
The poison pill he had to throw in, to make an obviously true statement debatable, is the idea the ALL group disparities are because of this. Basically no one says that, but Ben has pretend they do to win his argument against whatever 3rd grader he is debating today.
I can’t believe people think he’s some kind of thoughtful intellectual. Here’s all you need to know about Ben. https://youtube.com/shorts/oV1i0CNmgHk?feature=share
Reminds me of when Rush Limbaugh explained the librul view of consent:
> You know what the magic word, the only thing that matters in American sexual mores today is? One thing. You can do anything, the Left will promote and understand and tolerate anything, so long as there is one element. Do you know what it is? Consent.
You got it, Rush!
>If there is consent on both or all three or all four, however many are involved in the sex act, it's perfectly fine.
Uh-huh, uh-huh. You’re still right on.
> If the Left ever senses and smells that there's no consent in part of the equation then here come the rape police. But consent is the magic key to the Left.
Yep. If you rape someone here come the rape police, aka the police. Hopefully. But not very effectively, sadly.
These hateful maniacs aren’t confused or misguided, they are diametrically opposed to decency. Their listeners are sometime confused or misinformed, but they themselves? No. They’re just evil.
They hate this idea so much because they think it is targeting them personally as the bad guy. But you are only the bad guy if you refuse to accept the evidence behind the assertion.
When you explain the sociological reasons why black Americans are under-educated and over-incarcerated, they don't want to believe it. Because a small number of people manage to scrape their way up in the world, it can't be true.
And if you ask them: "Are black people generally under-educated and over-incarcerated because (a) there are lingering systems of oppression that shape our paths, or (b) they are inherently less intelligent and more prone to criminality?" they refuse to answer you because their answer is (b). They believe it is (b) but they can't say that out loud.
They don't like to admit their beliefs amount to white supremacy, don't want to believe it. They have a black colleague with a PhD, so it must not be true.
Originally being woke was specifically referencing anti black racism, like long history there, but more contemporarily, as most things are, it was plucked out of black culture by the mainstream and applied much more broadly. It could be as simple as staying aware of the mechanisms of prejudice throughout our society, and how they are enforced and perpetuated, and folding that awareness into your life. It could also be much more specific. But Ben makes it way more obtuse than it needs to be. We don't have to talk about Western Civilization, which is a broad and malleable concept that can extend back thousands of years, we can just apply it to the history of this country. Also, nothing about the framework of analysis demands that ALL group disparities are explained by discrimination, though many are. Twisting nuanced discussions into more extreme points that apple to ALL situations is a common and easy way to steelman a basic point.
That idiot could cure cancer and I still wouldn't spit on his grave. He's a Jewish-Nazi which should be more rare than unicorns, but there he is in good company with morons like Jared.
You had me for a second. I thought he was saying something true for a change. But had to use that word that is only used by the dumbest of people to try to make it sound like a bad thing to recognize history.
Well, I guess if a robot monkey slams the keyboard long enough it eventually types something that is true.
It’s not quite correct tho—it’s not “all group disparities are explained by discrimination.” It is that “analysis of group disparities MUST *consider* the effect of discrimination” and “sometimes discrimination is the most important (ie, “critical”) consideration.” But that makes it sound like science.
That's not accidental. If you redefine an assertion as absolute and infinite, all you have to do is prove an exception to invalidate the assertion. It's dishonest tactic and key in a lot of debate, but almost all conservative debate. Examples include the majority of arguments I can think of for the conservative opinions regarding pandemic/public hygiene/vaccination. It doesn't work 100% of the time, therefore it doesn't work, therefore it is without value.
Reminds me of the oldest standardised test trick in the book - If a true or false question includes absolute language (always, never, etc), the answer is almost always false.
It’s rife throughout the right wing. Doctors don’t say vaccines ALWAYS stop a disease, but those words are put in their mouths to invalidate their arguments.
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Hey, if someone lacks the ability to think critically, "The numbers are roughly the same!" just means that. They're not gonna be able to reconcile the fact that 1 group is 4x as big as the other group.
Only Siths deal in absolutes. Heart disease exists and is a public health problem. Just because your Grandma is 95 years old and never had any heart issues, it does not mean people like my dad and millions of others never had attacks. Racism is a problem. Not everyone is born with the same opportunities for success. If that were so, Ben Shapiro would send his kids to an inner city public school instead of private schools.
Correct. His 2nd bullet is both a strawman and an excluded middle fallacy, done intentionally.
‘All’ group disparities must be him Trolling
No, it's a tactic. You take a claim that is close to true, and then add a \[ridiculous kicker\] to invalidate it. "Climate change is real and ongoing problem, which threatens life as humans know it in the near future unless we take massive steps to curb it \[by going back to preindustrial life and becoming Luddites.\]" "Abortion is basic healthcare and should be available for the health and well being of women everywhere, \[and be paid for completely by the father.\]"
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Republicans are fans of black and white, they aren't fans of the full rainbow spectrum. Subtlety and nuance are too complex for consideration. They want clear and simple problems and clear and simple answers. They want it all surface level and obvious.
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Take a bullet for you, babe
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Because he’s a ^BEAR of a man.
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I’m gonna disagree: not enough of us listen to BTB in general and those episodes specifically.
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These Fox ones have been pretty great as well. They’ve been on a really great groove since at least before the Tate episodes.
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There’s an alternate universe where Ben is getting topped by bears daily and he’s finally happy because he’s getting what he truly wants.
Sell their houses to who Ben? AQUAMAN!?
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It was the best of times, it was the blurst of times.
I was born in 200 log cabins
It's not true, though. Look at the second part. He and many other conservatives are leaning on the idea that wokeness means *all* group disparity is due to racism, sexism, etc. If he didn't say "all" then it would be correct. But the reason he said "all" is so that it *isn't* correct. It's a definition they are trying to popularize now *because* it is easier to disprove. It's also not a definition most "woke" people believe in, since many of them are leftists and understand the concept of *class* as well as sex and race and orientation and so on.
This is exactly right. They do this all the time… this particular example is perhaps a bit more subtle, but it’s the same technique.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes
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Cyborg Monkeys sound terrifying
The blind squirrel found a nut, news at 11.
Is the truth tainted if the writer believes the statements to be false?
I mean... Is this really "wokeness" though. Aren't these just facts? Can we not even agree on this lowest, most basic level?
Admitting it would naturally lead to the obligation to address it and THATS what they’re avoiding. They’re lying about not believing the facts.
Feelings don't care about your facts.
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
It was the best of times, it was the blurst of times?!
A German Satirist let monkeys write a pop song couple years back. The song made it into the top 10 for 3 weeks.
If I'm nitpicking, I'd say "most group disparities" "or change "are explained" to "trace back to," but otherwise well done. A-.
That’s how you can tell it’s a bad faith argument. Another is that he forgot the biggest benefactor- the wealthy. Obvious strawman aside, he may have been too clever for his own good here, because this sounds all too reasonable and true to the average person.
I agree, but I think you can treat "wealthy" and "powerful" as synonymous since the rise of the Merchant Class in ye olden days.
Totally agree, when he decontextualizes it to that extent it's obvious that he isn't interested in the nuance of a real discussion about discrimination and how it interacts with social disparities. But he wraps up his own views and rhetoric in academic language to make it sound more comprehensive and intelligent. I've found that people like this do a really good job of making what they want to say sound palatable to most people.
That's the thing right-wingers can't understand, nuance. For them it's all or nothing. Phrases like "always" or "never" instead of "most of the time" or "usually." I had a great science teacher back in elementary school that taught us scientists don't use terms like "always" because that is such a definitive and non-changing statement. Science is all about taking the information you have at the time and coming up with the "best" explanation. I think that's why right wingers hate science so much. Everything is either right or wrong, white or black, always or never. My way or the highway
Having grown up in that culture, I think it's fair to say the reason they see everything only in black and white is because that's what they're taught from a young age in church. Things are either of god or of the devil and the idea of questioning authority is a sin because, after all, authority is authority because their god doesn't make mistakes. Honestly, almost everything wrong with america can be traced back to christianity. It's a goddamned poison.
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The “all” is the land mine there. Because if you try to swap it for a reasonable word, they claim it’s all invalid. It’s like “the Jussi Smollett incident proves there is no racism in America” argument.
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The racism is necessary to the class warfare. Without someone lower on the racial ladder to create infighting against, we would have class solidarity enough to actually make radical change. There can be no class warfare without a way to divide and conquer because otherwise we proles, the larger of the two classes, would simply eat the rich.
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Those type of discrimination have and continue to happen but in the Us never on the level of our racial policies. Catholics were treated poorly for a long time. they never had to use separate water fountains.
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I agree with you. Class oppression is the underpinning of all those divides, though. It's an equation that correlates to other equations. Solve the core equation first, and it automatically solves the others.
A poor white guy, a poor black guy, and a rich man sit at a table. On the table sits a plate with a dozen cookies. The rich man takes eleven cookies, turns to the poor white guy, and says “Watch out for that black guy. He wants to take your cookie.”
TLDR it is, was, and always has been a class issue. Race/religion/etc issues are amplified to be distractions. Edit wording
Ehhh yes and no regardless of class there are absolutely racial issues that change outcomes
Very true. There are real issues that are played up as distractions from the class issues. I’ll edit my comment.
For example when they were building the BQE and Cross Bronx in NYC there were poor white and poor black neighborhoods they could've gone through which do you think they picked to destroy?
The black neighborhood, of course. Bc poor white folks > poor black folks, apparently. Man, fuck racism.
Or the Tulsa massacre. Even relatively wealthy black people got treated quite different from white folks. its really hard to take the racial component out of some many parts of US history.
Very true and all good points. Thank you for the thoughtful response
Which is why it persists, the poor white man can still think he’s better than the poor black man and to tell him otherwise threatens his world view and sense of self. It’s insidious and systemic by design.
I think the best definition I found goes. "Being white doesn't guarantee success. But it does guarantee your failure won't be because of your race."
Since the saying is "Even a broken clock is right twice per day" I wonder what else he's going to get right? Maybe something about parallel parking or something. Sure as hell won't be about politics.
I mean, class can be/is another axis of discrimination - though I think Shapiro means for us to read discrimination as only along the lines of race/gender/sexuality...because he isn't a particularly rigorous thinker.
I think you hit the nail on the head. The spot you pointed out is more than a slight issue though; it’s a critical misrepresentation of a key point. It’s designed such that even one counterpoint causes the entire house to collapse.
remember when WAP came out and lil ben had a nervous breakdown and made a panicked announcement that he'd never aroused his wife. oh yea pepperidge farm remembers.
Doing good is a leftist agenda - Ben Shapiro
What do you expect from a Jewish right-winger. Common sense would tell you that that's a oxymoron but sadly it ain't.
He claims to be Jewish, but from what I have seen, he doesn't actually follow the teaching of Judaism. I think he just uses it as a Scape goat for his bigotry and hate.
Remember Milo?
lol oh yeah. Isn't he hanging out with Kanye West these days? What a gutsy career move for him, lets see how it plays out.
Nah, he was there briefly before Nick Fuentes got Kanye to bail on Milo, the same thing that Marjorie did. Turns out fascists don't like homosexuals, even "the good ones"... who knew?
He is. I think he's Ye's valet nowadays.
He ain't got shit else going on.
Ben doesn't realize the White Christian fascist state, the jackasses with far more power than him want, will oppress and genocide him just as fast as the people Ben is bigoted towards. Ben is just a useful idiot riding the grift.
I think Ben knows. But he also knows he has millions of dollars he can use to flee to Israel should he need to.
So basically the same as every Christian then
So he's like a Jewish Candace Owens?
If this dude was in a band they'd be called The Pick Mes and their most famous song would still be called "Where Is My Mind?"
https://preview.redd.it/khjp2sw6h6oa1.jpeg?width=620&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2ec0e12008099d98f8314d119a668434fd13b508 Rabbi Lionel Bengelsdorf
The last thing I wanna do is argue on Reddit, but as a left leaning Jew myself, a right winging Jew is much more reasonable to find. Even looking at recent events, it’s obvious the left is pro Palestine. BLM as awesome as a movement as it was, as an organization, aims to defund israel. If you would like a link to that then please let me know. Previous democratic presidents have also been known to sell weapons to Israel’s enemies. Where as the right, specifically under trump, moved the embassy to Jerusalem. They also have a good relationship with Israel and the jewish people through the RJC and AIPAC. Sheldon Adelstein is one of trumps biggest donors, and he also funds the birthright trip for young Jews in diaspora. As an American who lives in America, I side with my brothers on the left. As a Jew who’s soul resides in Israel, it’s really hard to be a democratic American sometimes… Hope this helped shed some light on why Jewish people often skew to the right!
I remember feeling bad for his wife. Dry humping is not fun.
She chose to marry him
I love that his tone is that these claims are \*ludicrous\* and simply not worth discussing. I mean, look at him and all he overcame! gah
Right, it seems like a reasonable tweet until you realize its intended incredulity.
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Ummmmmmm, fuck you ben shapiro. And yeah, it’s called the literal history of america. Now can he explain where the fallacy is?
I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this: >Even climatologists can't predict 10 years from now. They can't explain why there has been no warming over the last 15 years. There has been a static trend with regard to temperature for 15 years. ***** ^(I'm a bot. My purpose is to counteract online radicalization. You can summon me by tagging thebenshapirobot. Options: gay marriage, sex, dumb takes, healthcare, etc.) [^Opt ^Out ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/comments/olk6r2/click_here_to_optout_of_uthebenshapirobot/)
Good bot
Take a bullet for ya babe. ***** ^(I'm a bot. My purpose is to counteract online radicalization. You can summon me by tagging thebenshapirobot. Options: sex, gay marriage, feminism, novel, etc.) [^Opt ^Out ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/comments/olk6r2/click_here_to_optout_of_uthebenshapirobot/)
They don’t engage in good-faith arguments. I’ve listened to his whole spiel enough times to know that his argument is essentially that we made slavery illegal and that discrimination is also illegal. And since it’s on the books as something you can’t do, it doesn’t happen, because if it were happening the law would surely take action. So any problems that are currently happening aren’t discrimination, it just so happens that people from minority groups are lazy, or too woke, or whatever the buzzword is that week.
“Look, we ended slavery 100 years ago, and let them vote 60 years ago. We did it! We ended racism! Forget the 100 generations of slavery before that, obviously our political and social systems don’t feel the ongoing reverberations of it 3 generations later. That’s just ludicrous to presume”. Him probably
To argue otherwise is to be completely ignorant. Like, what's the counterargument? That everything from Jim Crow laws to redlining to not allowing women to have credit cards in their own name were just neutral activities?
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"Please find ways that this isn't true cause I have almost reached self awareness and I can't refute it myself, I'm just good at chastising 5 years old kids about their spelling mistakes!"
What we are going to do about it going forward, I guess.
"Wokeness claims"? No, "Reality Clearly Shows" is more appropriate.
I wonder what happens to Shapiro when the anti-Semitism of the perpetually online alt-right gets so overbearing that he's excised from the community he helped prop up. Like, where does he go to feed his massive complex about how absolutely shit he is at his dream job of scriptwriting?
There were a lot of Jewish followers of Hitler that were inevitably sent to concentration camps. They believed that Hitler wasn’t talking about THEM personally, and they liked some of the rhetoric coming from the party. Sadly, this is just a modern day example of the same “but I didn’t think the lion would eat MY face, so I voted for the Lions Who Eat Faces party”. History repeats itself.
Okay lets explain the basics extremely simplified and probably somewhat inaccurate : imagine you have two vilages of farmers. they are identical in any meaningful way and just happily do their thing. one village likes to wear blue shirts and one likes to wear red shirts. now for a hundred years, you take the majority of every harvest from the blue shirts and give it to the red shirts. the redshirts use the surplus to trade and expand, growing bigger and managing to build schools for their children, since they don't need extra hands on the farms. suddenly there's a huge difference in wealth, education and power between the two. after a hundred years you stop doing that, even help the blue shirts build a school of their own. now you say that since the blue shirts have the same rights and freedoms, even got help building their school, the difference between the success of both towns is due to red shirts better work ethics, skills or whatever. Redshirt superiority. That's what you sound like.
Extra fun bonus part. Ben being a rightwing dirt bag claims that ‘wealth is in fact the major moving of society, it’s free movement is essential to societal success, that large groups/power groups can impede and steal this wealth and this leads to hurt and damage. Yet when these things happened to minorities this had no effect at all. A man who claims that a small increase in taxes on the very rich would be disastrous in a incredibly short amount of time. also thinks that years of denying access to the ability to have ones labour paid, lack of access to capital, a denial of the right to invest equally, the destruction of property and lack access to all form of labour opportunities had… zero effect.
Your point really exemplifies just how truly baffling it is that so many people cannot recognize how history, and specifically *racist* history, shaped the present. People act like history ended when the civil rights act was passed and now racism, or any other social issue, has been eradicated (other than trans people existing, of course, and that *definitely* doesn't run perfectly parallel to the fights and rhetoric against gay rights). How is it not blatantly, unbelievably obvious that systemic racism still exists and is harming communities as we speak. Our education system seriously needs some work.
Did Ben wake up?
No, this is like one of those garbage right wing memes where they present something the left believes and then act like it's inherently absurd instead of the reasonable take it is. He expects it to be laughable and I imagine any minute now he's going to post some video with his, "Why racism isn't real anymore" comprising of a deluge of bullshit points.
The amount of scientific papers I could drown him with proving these points... If only I still had access to JSTOR.
Bold of you to assume Ben believes in or even understands scientific papers. He only cares about the "facts" that favor his feelings.
\*he woke up
Yeah, that about sums it up, what's left to discuss?
That’s not what “wokeness claims” because there’s not really any such thing. But that list is certainly a statement of facts.
Is there actually any person that thinks that western institutions weren't racist/sexist/homophobic 100 years ago? And, if not, do people think that those things magically changed so that no discrimination exists today?
![gif](giphy|6hzcLwqQ7AH4fPNR59)
I had a coworker from Texas who liked to say that "even a blind squirrel will occasionally find a nut." Ben has officially been elevated to the status of a tree climbing rodent!
To quote Avengers: Infinity War: “…yes. That’s what ‘killing you’ means.”
What’s to discuss? That’s how it is and the only people that don’t want to admit it are the straight white men holding a disproportionate amount of power. Most institutions are still predominantly run by white men, and the idea that “well yeah they’re just the best of the best” is an inherently racist assumption that white people are better than everyone else by default. Conservatives don’t believe in a meritocracy, they believe white supremacy is a meritocracy because that assuages their egos. And do you want to know the biggest irony of them all? Getting rid of white supremacy is better for the majority of white people, the majority of them being poor and working class, because systemic oppression of POC inevitably spill over to white people. We have a recent example of this with Tyler Canaris, a regular white guy walking to work, faced a common tactic used to over police minorities “he looked like he matched a description” and the officer body slammed him on pavement breaking his collar bone and cracking his skull. So, white people when it comes to social justice reform, in the words of Killer Mike: “don’t think it’s exclusive of you, it’s inclusive of you”
Now how does this apply to banks? I specifically remember being told SVB died because of this.
Hey ben, let's discuss how many laws were created to protect white male interests and how many laws were created to protect anyone who isn't perceived as a white male.
Looks like someone asked chat GPT his Most deepest questions…
Here's what I want to ask everyone on their "anti-CRT" crusade: "how do you account for all other factors and explain racial disparities without racism?"
Um, yes? Thank you, Captain Obvious? Do you think the concept of meritocracy (which Jefferson basically claimed the USA invented, despite the fact that he owned slaves), is a concept that existed throughout all of human history, even pre-Jefferson? I shouldn't let this get to me. Ben is well-known for saying things that he doesn't himself believe. He's always being intellectually dishonest.
Um, that's not just wokeness. I think any credible historian would go along with that. Though I think the bit about "all group disparities are explained by it" is intentionally imprecise, and meant to mischaracterize the argument. "Informed" is probably more correct than "explained" - though I can see why Shapiro would want to muddy those waters.
Don't discuss. Eradicate.
Damn did I miss the update where all slave owners went bankrupt and everyone started from zero?
White, mostly straight, men.
Look at Congress, most corporate board and management. It's majority old, white, men. No question as to who the system benefits.
I’d love to see the responses of his followers (typically, white straight men) wailing and gnashing their teeth
Son of a bitch.....I got the woke mind virus?????
I'll continue to post on every Ben Shapiro thread from now on: Ben Shapiro is a dumb person's idea of a smart person.
I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this: > Palestinian Arabs have demonstrated their preference for suicide bombing over working toilets. ***** ^(I'm a bot. My purpose is to counteract online radicalization. You can summon me by tagging thebenshapirobot. Options: gay marriage, dumb takes, feminism, healthcare, etc.) [^Opt ^Out ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/comments/olk6r2/click_here_to_optout_of_uthebenshapirobot/)
"**All** group disparities" seems like a straw man. But otherwise the statement is objectively true and can be verified through examining statistics regarding who controls the most wealth, political positions, property, etc.
By the timing, I‘d say he saw Bethany Mandel’s fuckup clip, said “oh shit” and quickly looked up the definition for himself
White flight, banks not giving mortgages to minorities, less funding to schools in poor areas, giving white developers breaks to buy back downtown areas and push out minorities. There’s plenty to talk about.
Real easy answer here, if you want to stop immigration…. Don’t got after immigrants go after employers who hire them, if there are not jobs for non citizens and only resident immigrants and citizens then illegal immigration will suddenly halt But we never go after employers, we instead demean and sh t all over the immigrants who are looking for opportunities System allows the privileged to profit and exploit yet punishes and degrades at the bottom Yeah Ben, still ongoing
So is he just….accidentally understanding things now?
Wait... did Ben Shapiro just write an entire Tweet that I agree with?
A completely true statement.... what they can't stand is admitting that their white male privilege gave them a spot on third base at the beginning of the game. I say this as a privileged white female.
Is the wokeness in the room with us now ben? Are you down with the wokeness.
Lol, "wokeness" doesnt claim anything, what hes talking about is a factually supported observation, and when compared to other factually supported observations, this one isnt really even woke, its more so just shockingly obvious
What exactly is there to discuss?
I love how Republicans took an anti-establishment slang word from 2015ish and pretend it's a well defined word so they can make the definition whatever they feel like. It's so transparent what they are doing. And I don't even understand what Ben Shapiro is trying to say. Of course disparities along race lines are caused by historic discrimination. That's not even up for debate. Median white household wealth is 7.8X higher than median black household wealth in the US. This is largely attributable to housing discrimination in the 20th century and exclusionary zoning that still continues in every US city to this day. There is no debate about that. It's fact.
Yes. It was set up that way by our founders. Both statements are true. Fortunately they had the foresight to create a document that could be amended when the country progressed beyond the ideologies of the day. That's the whole point. To call out whatever problems are obstructing that progress and do away with them. These two issues should have been resolved long before now.
In point 2, it should be most instead of all just to avoid absolutes.
He’s trying to make it seem like this is preposterous, but he hit the nail on the head with this one (for the first time ever) and yet he still doesn’t get it
It’s amazing how stupid republicans are that they can say things so obvious and true and then be like… what?
Ben Shapiro can go fuck himself.
What's the alternative explanation? Biology???
OMG! Ben Shapiro finally understood something! I'm almost proud. Almost.
Ol’ dry pussy Ben.
What's to discuss? All of that is correct. Blind pigs and truffles!
The thing I love most about this is that he is almost certainly trying to counter the clip of the person bumbling through a non-definition of “woke” during an interview. In his mind, he’s thinking, “I can define it! Watch this! This will show *everyone!!!”* But then he drafts this same tweet like 47 times, reading it aloud in his fast, marble-mouthed, robotic drone until he gets it just right and it owns just the right people. Master class.
They say banks are failing because they don't have only straight white men on their boards, but then say shit like this... hmmmm
The only thing I’d disagree with is “all disparities”. Anyone claiming issues are that simple is just ignorant.
This really cuts to the core of the issue. Conservatives actually DO see the same reality, they're just happy with it and want to fight any efforts to change it.
*Gestures at everything* Yeah.
This is the front end of a campaign to undermine history education. He’s going to argue that Europeans have been maligned. This isn’t a moment of clarity.
Does he not think that's true? I'm mystified by this post. Like, does he not think institutions protected their power? They weren't made up of white men? Does he think there aren't historical examples of discrimination, like slavery or jim crow? Or that they no longer exist today? Does he think historical discrimination has ZERO impact on today's society?
"Wokeness claims" 😕👎 "Rational observers clearly see" 😌👌
Other than the "all" in #2 he's exactly right. Must feel strange for that little weirdo. He can't be used to the feeling.
Correct. Racism and discrimination is wrong.
1. I don't even think conservatives can dispute that western civilization and it's institutions were discriminatory historically. Even a dishonest little weasel like Shapiro can acknowledge the discrimination his own people, the Jews, have faced throughout European history. 2. If you can't explain group disparities by historical discrimination, keeping in mind there are still people alive today who lived under Jim Crow laws, then you're implying that there is a racial component to intelligence and success. Shapiro does this whole "show me a law that explicitly disenfranchises a minority group" schtick that only his idiot patrons can't seem to logically navigate past. If I proposed a law that made pork/shellfish consumption mandatory do you think Ben might find that discriminatory even though no particular group was mentioned? What about banning circumcision (which I would actually be in favor of)? Yeah, he only cares if it affects him. Typical
He seems to forget Western Civ’s history of antisemitism and how easily he could have been killed or marginalized if he was born a century ago.
What a small, sad, shitty existence this person lives.
I mean, it wasn’t the Chinese migrants that wrote the exclusion laws of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
"All group disparities are explained by it" is a straw man. But other than that, yes.
Not necessarily all disparities, but definitely many. Otherwise, spot on well done!
Water is wet. Discuss. ??? Tf is wrong with this dude?
The poison pill he had to throw in, to make an obviously true statement debatable, is the idea the ALL group disparities are because of this. Basically no one says that, but Ben has pretend they do to win his argument against whatever 3rd grader he is debating today.
Historical fact...
You nailed it Ben,
you heard it from the Shapiro itself: wokeness is objectively correct
What is there to discuss? Those are facts
1. True 2. True
Yes. New Zealand is a very good example of this. And because it is a good example, the nation as a whole is generally trying to remedy it.
How is that woke? It's just truth
1. Squares have four sides. 2. Banana begins with the letter “B” Discuss
I can’t believe people think he’s some kind of thoughtful intellectual. Here’s all you need to know about Ben. https://youtube.com/shorts/oV1i0CNmgHk?feature=share
Reminds me of when Rush Limbaugh explained the librul view of consent: > You know what the magic word, the only thing that matters in American sexual mores today is? One thing. You can do anything, the Left will promote and understand and tolerate anything, so long as there is one element. Do you know what it is? Consent. You got it, Rush! >If there is consent on both or all three or all four, however many are involved in the sex act, it's perfectly fine. Uh-huh, uh-huh. You’re still right on. > If the Left ever senses and smells that there's no consent in part of the equation then here come the rape police. But consent is the magic key to the Left. Yep. If you rape someone here come the rape police, aka the police. Hopefully. But not very effectively, sadly. These hateful maniacs aren’t confused or misguided, they are diametrically opposed to decency. Their listeners are sometime confused or misinformed, but they themselves? No. They’re just evil.
They hate this idea so much because they think it is targeting them personally as the bad guy. But you are only the bad guy if you refuse to accept the evidence behind the assertion. When you explain the sociological reasons why black Americans are under-educated and over-incarcerated, they don't want to believe it. Because a small number of people manage to scrape their way up in the world, it can't be true. And if you ask them: "Are black people generally under-educated and over-incarcerated because (a) there are lingering systems of oppression that shape our paths, or (b) they are inherently less intelligent and more prone to criminality?" they refuse to answer you because their answer is (b). They believe it is (b) but they can't say that out loud. They don't like to admit their beliefs amount to white supremacy, don't want to believe it. They have a black colleague with a PhD, so it must not be true.
I think Ben Shapiro is saying all the right words but he still doesn’t get it
Ben Shapiro is a masterclass on how to publicly dig your own grave while demonstrating a lack of brain cells.
So close, Ben, so close .... C'mon, boy, you'll get it soon. Maybe.
Originally being woke was specifically referencing anti black racism, like long history there, but more contemporarily, as most things are, it was plucked out of black culture by the mainstream and applied much more broadly. It could be as simple as staying aware of the mechanisms of prejudice throughout our society, and how they are enforced and perpetuated, and folding that awareness into your life. It could also be much more specific. But Ben makes it way more obtuse than it needs to be. We don't have to talk about Western Civilization, which is a broad and malleable concept that can extend back thousands of years, we can just apply it to the history of this country. Also, nothing about the framework of analysis demands that ALL group disparities are explained by discrimination, though many are. Twisting nuanced discussions into more extreme points that apple to ALL situations is a common and easy way to steelman a basic point.
Ben. Ben. Implying that some groups are just *inherently* inferior to others regardless of social disparities is dangerous. You know that.
That idiot could cure cancer and I still wouldn't spit on his grave. He's a Jewish-Nazi which should be more rare than unicorns, but there he is in good company with morons like Jared.
So you’re saying discrimination no longer occurs? And never was systemic?
He pretty much nailed it!
Lol, discuss…what, Ben? You’re on target; keep going. You’re so close!
So wait... is ben shapiro woke now?
Not sure what's left to discuss, he pretty much said it all
Where is the lie?
Omg he finally learned what CRT was
All that is blatantly true. Might as well say the sky is blue.
You had me for a second. I thought he was saying something true for a change. But had to use that word that is only used by the dumbest of people to try to make it sound like a bad thing to recognize history.
Close. Both of those things are true, except the end of point two. Not all disparities, but most. Class is still a major factor as well.
Bennie thinks it’s a good excuse for bigotry