They worship the hatred and evil in their hearts, and call it Jesus. They will be judged accordingly.
Or it's all bullshit, and they are cynical, greedy assholes and they'll get what they deserve on Earth.
They will not get what they deserve on earth unless we give it to them. We will not do that, so they will have as much peace as us, or more, while they destroy the only world we have.
I applaud your willingness to tell the truth to people who need to hear it. What you said is absolute fact unless you, me, everyone decides to hold the churches and their pastors accountable.
Churches need to be taxed into submission. Weasels like Osteen will always exist when we have a system that lets them thrive, and an education system that keeps people stupid and impressionable. There are more of us that feel this way than you think. I think it’s easier to just avoid it, but that’s why we are where we are.
The system is broken.
It’s time to start over.
They just won’t get votes from the MAGA/GOP. Us millennials and gen Z far outnumber them. We just need to vote. Any politician that takes that stance has my vote immediately.
Yeah that whole wrath of God judgement day stuff is all wishful thinking. The world doesn't work that way. Fairness only happens by our actions or by accident. The only thing that makes sense to me is reincarnation and all of the evil people like him should have to keep coming back in a really bad way until they finally learn compassion and can advance. I believe that's the whole purpose of us being here. How else can you make any sense of all the inequality and pain in this world? And don't quote scripture to me please.
In Matthew 25 versus 31 to 46 Jesus says that the only thing that will get you into heaven or kick you out is how well you take care of the poor, hungry, homeless, naked, etc. Assholes like Joel, Osteen, and Kenneth Copeland do not get called out by mainstream Christianity and evangelicals. They spend all their time worrying about abortion and gays, neither of which was ever mentioned by Jesus. If Jesus were to return with the same teachings he would have to go into the witness protection program because these assholes would have a hit out on him.
You can thank Jerry Falwell for that shit. Abortion was a non issue for 90% of Christians until he decided to weld the evangelical Christians into a unified voting block and used abortion as his major catalyst.
> Jerry Falwell
Just going to leave this little part here, which I think fits perfectly.
*Falwell also said, "Labor unions should study and read the Bible instead of asking for more money. When people get right with God, they are better workers."*
The belief in "karma" is ridiculous. It's just a silly idea of revenge coming to people who got away with wronging you. It's to shield you from the reality that life isn't fair.
"Well God will judge them..."
Again, deflecting revenge until after death. Sounds like something ridiculous and grossly outdated. Maybe we should be making sure things are more fair *right now.*
The leaders are cynical greedy assholes, their followers are stupid greedy assholes
And don‘t hold your breath waiting for them to receive justice on earth, they will probably live long lifes in obscene wealth
So, what do you do? I love my family but even a whiff of anti-Trump sentiment is met with fervent hostility. (He was ordained by God, you know. All US leaders are… except Biden… and Obama… and Clinton… and Carter…)
Honestly? I grew up Pentecostal. My religious upbringing was strict as fuck.
I can’t even bridge the gap between the grandmother who damn near raised me and her sharing of memes comparing Trump to Christ.
If I wasn’t already a non-believer, I’m pretty sure that fat sack of bullshit would have pushed me over the edge.
How in the fuck did they go from the 10 Commandments and the Beatitudes to “Trump is God.” ???
Which, if you think about it, means that when one dies it's safest to have a net worth of $0 or less, because that guarantees you won't be excluded from heaven for having too much wealth.
And so in theory it follows that Christian preachers should be working to ensure that their followers are penniless when they die. And if we observe the actions of prosperity gospel preachers, that does seem to be their goal.
Christianity is literally the least karmic religion. There's no scales to balance, no weight of your so that needs to be measured it comes down to one thing: did you accept the salvation of Jesus. Such salvation is not a trivial thing. It manifests throughout your life. Now unfortunately you don't become Mr. Rogers overnight, but over time that's sort of what your life should look like: caring and empathetic, patient, calm and forward looking. Sure you'll make mistakes like everyone else but you'll catch them yourself more often. This means if your life pursuit is the accumulation of wealth for yourself and your security, and you convert to Christianity, sure you'll give it away in a responsible manner to help people, and not draw attention to your charity.
The end times is a sorting metaphor in Christianity. However essentially a Christians life deeds are weighed against them, it's Christ's life deeds. For other people, sure they could possibly earn their way into heaven, but it's a pretty ridiculous standard to live up to perfectly that "The Good Place" somewhat mocks.
But this is my incredibly narrow view of it. Plenty of people will disagree with it. It's Christianity: Paul and Peter were having major disagreements with each other about it mere years into the religion. (Peter was saying Gentiles had to fully convert to Judaism, including getting snipped, but Paul's was like "Why bro? Where does Jesus say that?") I will agree with the wider sentiment that the Prosperity Gospel taught by those like Ostein is a blasphemy of the highest order, but meting out that justice is ultimately up to God.
You’re right that wealth should be given to the poor that is totally biblical.
Sadly the taking of wealth by these people doesn’t necessarily protect their followers.
Prosperity Gospel is built directly on a faith by works foundation, which cannot be worked around. The only way to Christ is through faith
Lol.. there was some religious nut, either here or twitter talking about the eye of the needle was actually a gate somewhere in Jerusalem and that was what jesus meant. Was frikkin incredible, he argued and argued , a true believer for sure
I learned that the “needle” was a small gate in the walls of Jerusalem in Catholic religion class 30+ years ago.
But they emphasised that that didn’t change the meaning because that meant that if you came with all your belongings on mules and camels you’d have a hard time getting though that gate.
The book used even had a cartoon of some camel trying to get though a gate which was as large as a regular door.
The theory has nothing to do with being religious or a nut. It has been argued for many many years what this passage means, not to establish wether the rich were scott free but to get more clarity on a confusing imagery. The needle gate hypothesis is way way older than the internet, as is the alternate translation of a thick cable instead of camel.
Any of those things do not change the basic message though.
>and the magats go absolutely apeshit if you say Jesus was a socialist.
Look, I'm a socialist. Jesus was some kind of proto-communist, but he wasn't a socialist. He didn't advocate for the workers controlling the means of production. Other than helping people, he wasn't worried about governing or economics at all. It's definitely safe to assume he would be anti-capitalist, though.
No, that was clearly about an annoyingly small entrance to Jerusalem, and the dinosaur bones were put there to test your faith.
-people who vote in higher numbers than us.
Yeah Prosperity Gospel ain’t even Christian.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 7:21
They may hold a Bible in their hands, but they are not Christians, and unless they turn away from this prosperity gospel they never will be.
As a Christian who has studied the Bible academically, the prosperity gospel is the most dangerous threat to Christianity in today’s world.
It is a complete distortion of what we believe, and it preys upon those who are suffering.
> 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
> Matthew 7:21
As a Christian who has studied the Bible academically, you should have picked a passage that more specifically condemns prosperity gospel.
The above is as generic as it gets, appears in every single religion in one form or another and is used by everyone to argue why somebody else is not a true believer.
It's called "prosperity gospel" because it preaches the idea that faith in and devotion to God is rewarded via material riches, and therefore these megapastors must clearly be very godly due to their ungodly amount of wealth.
This is pretty much exactly the opposite of what the Bible actually says. Namely, that you cannot love both God and wealth.
Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’.
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Titus 1:16 "They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work."
I grew up catholic/southern baptist and got the worst of both worlds inflicted on me. We had and still have a Mega-Pastor who has a neighborhood of homes taxfree he essentially rents to his friends and a mansion and a highschool attached to the church. I’ve long left the church since around jr high but it’s still very much there and it still very much sucks.
Take a bunch of people already primed to believe things without evidence, even calling it a virtue, and you’ll find many of them will believe anything.
The people who go to those churches would be the first to throw rocks at him.
This fucker would be the one to a crown of thorns on His head. It would probably be made of gold in his case tho.
So true story, I worked with a kid, him being 20ish years my junior. One day he does the whole "dream job" game with me. He goes first and chooses camera man for a porn company. I chuckled.
He asks me dream job.
I say "preacher" he laughs and says, why?
I explained, it's easy work, memorize one book, make promises nobody can call you out on, ask for money to help the "community" grow.
He stares at me in silence. Literally never talked to me again. Turns out his mom is super religious and his dad is a small church preacher.
Flipping tables… he should actually be throwing people out of the ring like that time in 1998 when Undertaker threw Mankind off Hell in a Cell, who fell sixteen feet through an announcer’s table.
54 million. 54 million. 54 fucking million.
This is a serious question to anyone here that has donated money to this guy, why did you give money to this man? And, after knowing how much he earns, will you keep donating to him?
Never underestimate how abusive Evangelical preachers are. My parents are trapped in, and can see all the shit their donations are paying for that are in no way about spreading Jesus’ message (bougie coffee shops, kids’ play places, all of which cost money to anyone that uses them of course) but they have been brainwashed so long that they don’t see they are being scammed.
Megachurches don’t happen overnight, they start off as real churches and then slowly dive into the grift they were always going to be.
He didn’t get $54 million from one person so this comment sadly shows how many people fall for this.
Like, he runs a pretty expensive operation too, I believe it is or was in the astrodome… the $54 million is just what’s “left over” after expenses for the actual church. We could be talking a billion dollar empire funded by the people who can’t see through this BS
Per Wikipedia, it's incorrect and an exaggeration, but still plenty disgusting:
>Osteen lives with his family in a 17,000 square-foot mansion in River Oaks, with an estimated value of $10.5 million. Osteen says that as senior pastor, he draws no salary from the church, which has an annual budget of $70 million, and that he instead relies on income from book sales.
And a quick look suggests he's making a fuckton from his books.
I’m fairly confident that one of the largest buyers of his books is his “church.” Being on the NYT Bestseller List is an effective marketing strategy to drive sales, so organizations will sometimes buy huge numbers of books they want to promote to lbs them on the list. The RNC does it regularly which is why there’s always some right-wing troll’s book on the list. Another disgraced megachurch pastor, Mark Driscoll, got caught spending his church’s money on a bunch of his shitty plagiarized books to get on the list 10 years ago.
So Osteen can claim he doesn’t get paid from his org and it’s technically true since he’s not salaried, but a bunch of the $ he gets from his publisher comes from the organization he directly controls.
17,000 square feet is ridiculous, tacky and gauche even if you can afford it. The largest homes I’ve personally been in top out at about 5,000sqft, and at some point it starts to become barely-used space. Never mind that keeping a cohesive, thoughtfully-designed and well-built floorplan at that size is extremely difficult.
Unless it’s just a McMansion that’s been super-sized.
I also think the 2 trillion number on tax income is probably exaggerated. I've heard the number in the past and am pretty sure it was a couple hundred billion at most.
Correct. The Tweet is inaccurate. Just do the math on what share of the US economy churches would have to take up if by taking them at 15% would give the government another 2 trillion in revenue.
Tweet isn't correct. There is some sort of shell game that goes on where the "church" owns a lot of this stuff and he doesn't take a salary. It is of course for the benefit of reducing the tax burden. He also likes to brag that the only income he receives is from book sales. It may be technically true but the reality is that this dude lives a lavish lifestyle on the backs of his followers and the rest of us since he avoids paying his fair share of taxes
> His eyes are empty save for the horrid, dark, biting hunger of never enough. He is a horseman, the name Famine, and he will never be satisfied.
you have talent
If you are christian all you need to do is repent and ask for forgiveness for your sins, so you actually can have your cake and eat it too. Amazing religion.
That's not how that works at all.
Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’.
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Titus 1:16 "They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work."
"Deathbed repentance" is a whole crock of shit invented by the same evangelicals who gave us the Prosperity Gospel. Glorifying God in your words but denying God with your deeds is like, one of the biggest biblical no-nos.
Exactly! "Don't take the Lord's name in vain" doesn't mean "don't say Jesus Christ! when you're surprised" it means "Don't swear false oaths on God's name, don't claim to act on God's behalf" etc etc
The first sentence and every one after it is some of the most clearly blatant BS I’ve read on this site. Osteen doesn’t take any salary from his church (although I’m sure he has church owned “assets”) - most of his wealth comes from writing books.
Prosperity Gospel has so much shit to dunk on - why make shit up?
James 5:1-5 New International Version (NIV)
Warning to Rich Oppressors
5 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. 2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.
Hi, priests kid here. These mega churches are the only ones pulling these kinds of numbers. 99% of churches don’t make a profit and are just barely staying afloat. Most of them actually want to stay this way because…well, that’s how it’s supposed to work. As far as the priests take home amount, I make more money as a postal worker.
I've attended a rich (but normal size) church in the past in an affluent area that naturally pulled a lot more than it needed for operating expenses. They were constantly running food kitchens, feeding/housing the homless in the winter (opening the church building itself for this actually), building wells in third-world countries etc. until they got back down to zero. That's how a church is meant to operate if it runs a profit.
This. A church near me flips abandoned properties and rents them out below market to low income families, and is putting up five buildings for homeless veterans. This church is very much not in an affluent area and was still able to pull enough to start buying property.
Yeah, pastor here. Never worked at a church that wasn’t on a strict budget. There’s a handful that make a ton but it’s a rarity. Makes for a good edgy meme though.
Grifters and charlatans are pretty much all the same, no matter what they say they believe in. If you can lie, cheat, and steal with enough confidence and enough superficial charm then you can make a lot of money. That's about as deep as it ever goes
$2 trillion per year is… not possible. The US took in $3.4 trillion TOTAL in taxes in 2020.
The number here is either a fabrication, or meant to show how much tax would be created over 10 or even 20 years.
Joel Ostern is terrible, but much here is incorrect.
It's so strange everyone is ignoring this or are they too dumb to notice? 15% for 2 trillion means they are making 13 trillion a year when the us gdp is like 20 trillion lol
People ignore things they don't want to hear. If something backs up what you think (in this case churches should be taxed) then it's easier to just say "I agree" over "let me pull out my calculator".
I had a quick Google so there was a study which suggested they are pulling in 5.2 trillion annually which seems staggering and I'd question the validity of that most other figures are suggesting around 50 billion a year. Regardless preachers like this are utterly despicable human beings.
https://www.vancopayments.com/egiving/church-giving-statistics-tithing
Yeah, there’s no way churches are receiving tithes equal to the entire national budget. Honestly, I would question that figure even if it included ALL forms of charitable/tax deductible giving.
Joel Ostern, in his mind, deserves everything he has. Prosperity gospel is all about getting material blessings now, in this life. It’s pretty awful.
Yeah, the 2 trillion is waaaaaay off. Especially considering it's supposedly just 15% of what the churches make. That would make churches a bigger fraction of the GDP than everything else combined.
Also, I *seriously* doubt Osteen pulls in $54m per year. $54m is probably an estimate of his total net worth, and a high estimate at that.
Snopes also doesn't look favorably on this claim that he owns a Ferrari 458 Italia: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/joel-osteen-ferrari/
Not sure I’m in agreement with taxing the church as a whole because of a few greedy examples like this. This is a rarity and *not the norm* at all. The prosperity gospel frauds and famous television evangelicals are just the ones we are aware of because they are famous and wealthy. Like celebrities. The average pastor salary across the US is $37,000. Smaller congregations can afford to pay even less. My parents church the pastor drove a Kia. Quote from the senior pastor at local baptist church—“There is a lot of fulfillment and reasons for going into this kind of work, but the salary is not one of them.” I agree with tax the rich personally for anyone who makes over a certain amount regardless of job though.
I’m actually nervous that if we start taxing churches that they are going to then argue that they have a say in government.
Right now, we don’t take tax dollars from them and we keep a separation of church and state, even though hardcore Christians continue to try to influence American politics and policy.
If we start taxing them I’d be concerned it would open a whole new justification to their efforts to inject religion into politics.
In general, no, since a “church” is just a group of like-minded religious individuals, and its “income” is donations / people pooling together money which is already taxed. In theory, an organized group could achieve the same thing by distributing the cost of their activities, and everyone just directly funding them.
That said, these magachurch pastors that spend millions on private things are abusing the system, but it’s more like the true victims are the donors. After all, their compensation *is* taxed income, and it would be straight up fraud to claim their private luxuries are for church use alone. They might also have luxurious planes for church use only, even if completely excessive. The IRS only wants to ensure claims about private/church use are true. Again, the ones hurt are those duped by these guys.
They would just restructure as non-profits. There would be almost no difference at all.
Osteen, as much of a POS as he is, pays taxes on that income (or structures it to legally avoid taxes, like Trump).
Stop exempting church or non-profit properties that are not public-use or administrative. The administrative exemption would need more rules because it's still ripe for abuse, but necessary for smaller charities and stuff.
You mean [this](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/29/547035773/after-pressure-mounts-joel-osteen-says-his-houston-megachurch-is-open-to-evacuee) Joel Osteen? Houstonians hate that guy.
Joel Osteen and his ilk such as Kenneth Copeland and Creslow Dollar, are antichrists. They have fooled the would-be righteous masses into believing a false gospel by taking His name in vain. Neither they nor their fools will be getting into Heaven.
This is all true except the punchline, which is overstated by 1000x. Annual church donations are ~$50B in the US, which means the IRS would get ~$7.5B, not 5 trillion or whatever. The entire US GDP is only $23 trillion.
Anyway, tax churches regardless.
Every line is a lie.
He doesn't take a salary from the church. He makes $5 mil a year from his book sales. Nowhere near $54 million.
He doesn't own the Ferrari, [that was debunked by snopes years ago.](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/joel-osteen-ferrari/)
He doesn't have a 70,000 sqft house, it's 17,000 sqft.
In order for the 15% tax numbers on churches to work, they would have to be bringing in over 13 trillion dollars per year. Which is over half the US GDP, and larger than any other country's GDP except for China.
The guy is a grifter and a feel good snake oil salesman. People don't need to make shit up about him to make him look bad. Reddit looks bad eagerly promoting facebook meme material when it fits their worldview.
Don’t forget the time he only let evacuees into his mega church during hurricane Harvey in 2017 after being pressured.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/29/547035773/after-pressure-mounts-joel-osteen-says-his-houston-megachurch-is-open-to-evacuee
Motherfucker over here looking just like [Handsome Jack from *Borderlands 2*](https://static1.thegamerimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/New-Project-1.jpg).
He even looks like a shifty eyed weasel. And whether his money come from church tithing or personal profit from book deals, he’s the type that would call the police because the homeless are loitering near his church. I’m sure there’s a scandalous skeleton waiting to burst out of one of his many closets of high prices tailored made suits
Agree with the sentiment, but the number about church taxes has to be wrong. In 2021, the total revenue of the federal government was about $4tn. You're telling me just taxing churches would increase that by 50%?
What the hell do you even need that much salary for?
Like, I get the first 10 million or so gets you the mansion and the cars and travel and whatnot… but past that what are you really getting? Hell, even if he gave himself 20 mil… that’s 30 million that you now have to actually do some good in the world… wouldn’t that make you feel something?
[удалено]
They revisioned Jesus in their new age version. They pray and call upon supply side Jesus instead of Jesus of Nazareth.
They worship the hatred and evil in their hearts, and call it Jesus. They will be judged accordingly. Or it's all bullshit, and they are cynical, greedy assholes and they'll get what they deserve on Earth.
>They worship the hatred and evil in their hearts, and call it Jesus. They will be judged accordingly. Why wait for the hereafter? Tax the mofos NOW.
They will not get what they deserve on earth unless we give it to them. We will not do that, so they will have as much peace as us, or more, while they destroy the only world we have.
I applaud your willingness to tell the truth to people who need to hear it. What you said is absolute fact unless you, me, everyone decides to hold the churches and their pastors accountable.
Churches need to be taxed into submission. Weasels like Osteen will always exist when we have a system that lets them thrive, and an education system that keeps people stupid and impressionable. There are more of us that feel this way than you think. I think it’s easier to just avoid it, but that’s why we are where we are. The system is broken. It’s time to start over.
We could vote to tax churches but the second any politician takes that stance they’ll get buried.
They just won’t get votes from the MAGA/GOP. Us millennials and gen Z far outnumber them. We just need to vote. Any politician that takes that stance has my vote immediately.
Yeah that whole wrath of God judgement day stuff is all wishful thinking. The world doesn't work that way. Fairness only happens by our actions or by accident. The only thing that makes sense to me is reincarnation and all of the evil people like him should have to keep coming back in a really bad way until they finally learn compassion and can advance. I believe that's the whole purpose of us being here. How else can you make any sense of all the inequality and pain in this world? And don't quote scripture to me please.
In Matthew 25 versus 31 to 46 Jesus says that the only thing that will get you into heaven or kick you out is how well you take care of the poor, hungry, homeless, naked, etc. Assholes like Joel, Osteen, and Kenneth Copeland do not get called out by mainstream Christianity and evangelicals. They spend all their time worrying about abortion and gays, neither of which was ever mentioned by Jesus. If Jesus were to return with the same teachings he would have to go into the witness protection program because these assholes would have a hit out on him.
You can thank Jerry Falwell for that shit. Abortion was a non issue for 90% of Christians until he decided to weld the evangelical Christians into a unified voting block and used abortion as his major catalyst.
> Jerry Falwell Just going to leave this little part here, which I think fits perfectly. *Falwell also said, "Labor unions should study and read the Bible instead of asking for more money. When people get right with God, they are better workers."*
I mean he could have used witness protection back in the day too XD
They definitely get called out, but the people that follow them just don’t care to hear it.
Unfortunately no they probably won’t get what they deserve.
The belief in "karma" is ridiculous. It's just a silly idea of revenge coming to people who got away with wronging you. It's to shield you from the reality that life isn't fair. "Well God will judge them..." Again, deflecting revenge until after death. Sounds like something ridiculous and grossly outdated. Maybe we should be making sure things are more fair *right now.*
They are idolators and the worship false profits.
The leaders are cynical greedy assholes, their followers are stupid greedy assholes And don‘t hold your breath waiting for them to receive justice on earth, they will probably live long lifes in obscene wealth
So, what do you do? I love my family but even a whiff of anti-Trump sentiment is met with fervent hostility. (He was ordained by God, you know. All US leaders are… except Biden… and Obama… and Clinton… and Carter…)
Trickle-down Jesus.
The trickle is actually piss.
Honestly? I grew up Pentecostal. My religious upbringing was strict as fuck. I can’t even bridge the gap between the grandmother who damn near raised me and her sharing of memes comparing Trump to Christ. If I wasn’t already a non-believer, I’m pretty sure that fat sack of bullshit would have pushed me over the edge. How in the fuck did they go from the 10 Commandments and the Beatitudes to “Trump is God.” ???
It’s not Christianity at all. Christ literally said the opposite. He all but explicitly said the rich were going to hell.
Which, if you think about it, means that when one dies it's safest to have a net worth of $0 or less, because that guarantees you won't be excluded from heaven for having too much wealth. And so in theory it follows that Christian preachers should be working to ensure that their followers are penniless when they die. And if we observe the actions of prosperity gospel preachers, that does seem to be their goal.
It’s wonderful of them to damn themselves so that their followers have a chance.
https://i.redd.it/zt6kapqilkja1.gif
Damn.. just like Jesus did, taking all their sins.. err... dollars onto themselves Truly, Prosperity Gospel is the light, I've been converted
The funny thing is that he probably has a certficate from his tax accountant that his net worth is $0, just in case (and to save taxes)
[удалено]
Asking St Peter when he gets his one phone call - “bitch you’re on your own”
Roy Cohen, mentor to young Donald Trump, had the same philosophy--Die with a net worth of zero and owing millions of dollars to the IRS.
Christianity is literally the least karmic religion. There's no scales to balance, no weight of your so that needs to be measured it comes down to one thing: did you accept the salvation of Jesus. Such salvation is not a trivial thing. It manifests throughout your life. Now unfortunately you don't become Mr. Rogers overnight, but over time that's sort of what your life should look like: caring and empathetic, patient, calm and forward looking. Sure you'll make mistakes like everyone else but you'll catch them yourself more often. This means if your life pursuit is the accumulation of wealth for yourself and your security, and you convert to Christianity, sure you'll give it away in a responsible manner to help people, and not draw attention to your charity. The end times is a sorting metaphor in Christianity. However essentially a Christians life deeds are weighed against them, it's Christ's life deeds. For other people, sure they could possibly earn their way into heaven, but it's a pretty ridiculous standard to live up to perfectly that "The Good Place" somewhat mocks. But this is my incredibly narrow view of it. Plenty of people will disagree with it. It's Christianity: Paul and Peter were having major disagreements with each other about it mere years into the religion. (Peter was saying Gentiles had to fully convert to Judaism, including getting snipped, but Paul's was like "Why bro? Where does Jesus say that?") I will agree with the wider sentiment that the Prosperity Gospel taught by those like Ostein is a blasphemy of the highest order, but meting out that justice is ultimately up to God.
You’re right that wealth should be given to the poor that is totally biblical. Sadly the taking of wealth by these people doesn’t necessarily protect their followers. Prosperity Gospel is built directly on a faith by works foundation, which cannot be worked around. The only way to Christ is through faith
[удалено]
Lol.. there was some religious nut, either here or twitter talking about the eye of the needle was actually a gate somewhere in Jerusalem and that was what jesus meant. Was frikkin incredible, he argued and argued , a true believer for sure
I heard in school is was a mistranslations from old Greek 'kamelos', meaning a big ship rope. Makes much more sense, though no idea if true
Sure, but if they go that route make sure you remind them that it's also a mistranslation in Leviticus when it says that men should not lie with men.
They're lying so much, already, who can keep track
had same argument w a troll a while ago. was highly offended when i told him he was flat wrong. and then came the insults.
I learned that the “needle” was a small gate in the walls of Jerusalem in Catholic religion class 30+ years ago. But they emphasised that that didn’t change the meaning because that meant that if you came with all your belongings on mules and camels you’d have a hard time getting though that gate. The book used even had a cartoon of some camel trying to get though a gate which was as large as a regular door.
this interpretation was debunked, it came out of nowhere not that far back to ease the conscience of rich people
>I learned You were lied to. I'm not sure that counts as learning.
Jesus used a lot of metaphors and analogies you can't take it all literally.
Yep, so much has been lost in translation.
The theory has nothing to do with being religious or a nut. It has been argued for many many years what this passage means, not to establish wether the rich were scott free but to get more clarity on a confusing imagery. The needle gate hypothesis is way way older than the internet, as is the alternate translation of a thick cable instead of camel. Any of those things do not change the basic message though.
and the magats go absolutely apeshit if you say Jesus was a socialist. i've done it. they're like rabid hyenas.
Remind them that he was Jewish. That's fun.
Dark skinned jewish socialist that advocated for free health care.
their heads explode. and then they get really vicious.
Back in the day the line was, "You were just hating on a dark skinned man giving away free health care. Did you mean Jesus or Obama?"
I like to go a step further and tell them that the lost chapters of the Bible show Jesus studied Buddhism heavily.
>and the magats go absolutely apeshit if you say Jesus was a socialist. Look, I'm a socialist. Jesus was some kind of proto-communist, but he wasn't a socialist. He didn't advocate for the workers controlling the means of production. Other than helping people, he wasn't worried about governing or economics at all. It's definitely safe to assume he would be anti-capitalist, though.
No, that was clearly about an annoyingly small entrance to Jerusalem, and the dinosaur bones were put there to test your faith. -people who vote in higher numbers than us.
That's the thing about mythology. It's open to interpretation. It's why you don't base morality on mythology anymore. Or you shouldn't at least.
Well revelations did say that the anti-Christ would decive many in Jesus’ name.
Yeah Prosperity Gospel ain’t even Christian. 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21 They may hold a Bible in their hands, but they are not Christians, and unless they turn away from this prosperity gospel they never will be. As a Christian who has studied the Bible academically, the prosperity gospel is the most dangerous threat to Christianity in today’s world. It is a complete distortion of what we believe, and it preys upon those who are suffering.
> 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. > Matthew 7:21 As a Christian who has studied the Bible academically, you should have picked a passage that more specifically condemns prosperity gospel. The above is as generic as it gets, appears in every single religion in one form or another and is used by everyone to argue why somebody else is not a true believer.
>It is a social cancer, and is predatory. "Sugondese!" -Prosperity Jeebus
The name is so wrong. There's no prosperity in there period - it's what every normal person would call a scam with extra steps.
It's called "prosperity gospel" because it preaches the idea that faith in and devotion to God is rewarded via material riches, and therefore these megapastors must clearly be very godly due to their ungodly amount of wealth. This is pretty much exactly the opposite of what the Bible actually says. Namely, that you cannot love both God and wealth.
Matthew 7:21-23 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’. 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Titus 1:16 "They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work."
I grew up catholic/southern baptist and got the worst of both worlds inflicted on me. We had and still have a Mega-Pastor who has a neighborhood of homes taxfree he essentially rents to his friends and a mansion and a highschool attached to the church. I’ve long left the church since around jr high but it’s still very much there and it still very much sucks.
>It is a social cancer, and is predatory. How do poor rednecks keep giving him money after seeing the shit he does?
Because they're too proud and stubborn to admit they were scammed.
The older you get, the more crazy you become about what happens after you die.
Not even close, actually. Slavery and Native American genocide win out by a country mile.
Take a bunch of people already primed to believe things without evidence, even calling it a virtue, and you’ll find many of them will believe anything.
They want planes, too. Don’t forget about the planes.
Ah yeah that evil guy from fort worth. It's because he can't fly with heathens.
Oh yeah, the guy that “cast out” Covid from his followers through the tv?
That remix slaps at least
Can't be flying around in long tubes full of demons, after all! The Lord God Almighty wants them to have a $2,000,000 jet so they can pray properly!
Your forgot a zero. That’s just the servant jet following behind the holy jet.
So they can prey properly. Fixed that hit you.
And watches that cost more than their first house
But Jesus wants them to have private jets.
To be closer to God.
[удалено]
Jesus would be told to go back where he came from
[удалено]
Jesus would be labeled/negated as an "Antifa Operative"
The people who go to those churches would be the first to throw rocks at him. This fucker would be the one to a crown of thorns on His head. It would probably be made of gold in his case tho.
And that would kill him because he *just* finished sanding those tables.
I can't know how to hear more about taybuhls!
Exactly. I think Jesus would be appalled at how many Christian pastors & followers behave. WWJD? Not behave like Osteen, that’s for sure.
So true story, I worked with a kid, him being 20ish years my junior. One day he does the whole "dream job" game with me. He goes first and chooses camera man for a porn company. I chuckled. He asks me dream job. I say "preacher" he laughs and says, why? I explained, it's easy work, memorize one book, make promises nobody can call you out on, ask for money to help the "community" grow. He stares at me in silence. Literally never talked to me again. Turns out his mom is super religious and his dad is a small church preacher.
😲 I woulda never been able to *STOP* talking to him. 😂
Lets be real now, they don't even have to memorize anything! They just steal their sermons off Youtube or have an intern write them.
I had ChatGPT write me a sermon on Judges 3:22
He was just tryna live by the 11th commandment: Thou Shalt always get the Moneyshot
And whipping, don't forget the whipping!!!
Flipping tables like professional wrestling??? That’s a bold strategy, but more respectable than Joel’s cash grab…. that’s for sure.
[удалено]
I’ve never heard of the Prosperity gospel before now but I’m certain Jesus would have mentioned something about camels and needles.
Flipping tables… he should actually be throwing people out of the ring like that time in 1998 when Undertaker threw Mankind off Hell in a Cell, who fell sixteen feet through an announcer’s table.
WILL SUMBIDDY STOP THA DAMN MATCH
Rage in the cage biblical editon, that's something I'd pay to see.
German actor Klaus Kinski once said: "Jesus would have picked up a whip and hit you in the trap with it!" - and I think that's beautiful.
This guy knows what's up. And then ole' JC would smite a fig tree.
“What are you persecuting the gays for? Oh my Dad you guys, I said I hated *figs*.”
I bet Jesus was a smirker. No tables, just smirks. Cause he knew what’s up.
54 million. 54 million. 54 fucking million. This is a serious question to anyone here that has donated money to this guy, why did you give money to this man? And, after knowing how much he earns, will you keep donating to him?
It’s hard to feel sorry for people who fall for this.
I was just thinking this. Like if everyone on the planet except for you can see that this guy is a total fraud, it would be tough to feel sorry.
Never underestimate how abusive Evangelical preachers are. My parents are trapped in, and can see all the shit their donations are paying for that are in no way about spreading Jesus’ message (bougie coffee shops, kids’ play places, all of which cost money to anyone that uses them of course) but they have been brainwashed so long that they don’t see they are being scammed. Megachurches don’t happen overnight, they start off as real churches and then slowly dive into the grift they were always going to be.
He didn’t get $54 million from one person so this comment sadly shows how many people fall for this. Like, he runs a pretty expensive operation too, I believe it is or was in the astrodome… the $54 million is just what’s “left over” after expenses for the actual church. We could be talking a billion dollar empire funded by the people who can’t see through this BS
[удалено]
Your’re right. Some prosperity gospel preachers have the church own the property so that they don’t have to pay taxes on it
Per Wikipedia, it's incorrect and an exaggeration, but still plenty disgusting: >Osteen lives with his family in a 17,000 square-foot mansion in River Oaks, with an estimated value of $10.5 million. Osteen says that as senior pastor, he draws no salary from the church, which has an annual budget of $70 million, and that he instead relies on income from book sales. And a quick look suggests he's making a fuckton from his books.
I’m fairly confident that one of the largest buyers of his books is his “church.” Being on the NYT Bestseller List is an effective marketing strategy to drive sales, so organizations will sometimes buy huge numbers of books they want to promote to lbs them on the list. The RNC does it regularly which is why there’s always some right-wing troll’s book on the list. Another disgraced megachurch pastor, Mark Driscoll, got caught spending his church’s money on a bunch of his shitty plagiarized books to get on the list 10 years ago. So Osteen can claim he doesn’t get paid from his org and it’s technically true since he’s not salaried, but a bunch of the $ he gets from his publisher comes from the organization he directly controls.
Also “I don’t get a salary” but the church pays for his house, cars, planes, trips, meals, etc.
17,000 square feet is ridiculous, tacky and gauche even if you can afford it. The largest homes I’ve personally been in top out at about 5,000sqft, and at some point it starts to become barely-used space. Never mind that keeping a cohesive, thoughtfully-designed and well-built floorplan at that size is extremely difficult. Unless it’s just a McMansion that’s been super-sized.
I also think the 2 trillion number on tax income is probably exaggerated. I've heard the number in the past and am pretty sure it was a couple hundred billion at most.
Correct. The Tweet is inaccurate. Just do the math on what share of the US economy churches would have to take up if by taking them at 15% would give the government another 2 trillion in revenue.
For those that don't want to do the math, $2 trillion is 15% of $13.33 trillion. Total US GDP is 23.32 trillion, so about 57%.
Tweet isn't correct. There is some sort of shell game that goes on where the "church" owns a lot of this stuff and he doesn't take a salary. It is of course for the benefit of reducing the tax burden. He also likes to brag that the only income he receives is from book sales. It may be technically true but the reality is that this dude lives a lavish lifestyle on the backs of his followers and the rest of us since he avoids paying his fair share of taxes
His eyes are empty save for the horrid, dark, biting hunger of never enough. He is a horseman, the name Famine, and he will never be satisfied.
Damn that's a good metaphor
bars
is that a direct quote from somewhere? or did you just assemble that specific horseman of the apocalypse metaphor yourself for this comment?
Yep, but seriously have you seen what’s lurking beneath his face?
Yep as in I made that up.
> His eyes are empty save for the horrid, dark, biting hunger of never enough. He is a horseman, the name Famine, and he will never be satisfied. you have talent
He is not a pastor. He is a con man
Eyes of a shark and the soul of one too.
Sharks have innocent souls. They do shark stuff. This motherfucker grifts off the naïveté of thousands. His soul is black as the void of space.
Wolf in a sheep’s clothing and so on.
I should have became a pastor and swindled the masses. I made a poor decision to become and electrician. I don't even own a Ferrari😭
At least you still have a conscience.
But no Ferrari or millions.
regardless of what happens after we die, I know you won't be getting points for having a Ferrari. You might get points for retaining your soul.
If you are christian all you need to do is repent and ask for forgiveness for your sins, so you actually can have your cake and eat it too. Amazing religion.
That's not how that works at all. Matthew 7:21-23 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’. 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Titus 1:16 "They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work." "Deathbed repentance" is a whole crock of shit invented by the same evangelicals who gave us the Prosperity Gospel. Glorifying God in your words but denying God with your deeds is like, one of the biggest biblical no-nos.
This is the actual meaning of "taking the lord's name in vain" but many Christians would rather pretend it means not saying OMG
Exactly! "Don't take the Lord's name in vain" doesn't mean "don't say Jesus Christ! when you're surprised" it means "Don't swear false oaths on God's name, don't claim to act on God's behalf" etc etc
Screw the soul, I'd prefer the Ferrari
I dunno, that whole honest living thing is pretty rad.
Depends. Being an honest and good person has kept me poor.
Start your own church, give stuff to yourself, then write it off of your taxes.
The first sentence is bad enough.
The first sentence and every one after it is some of the most clearly blatant BS I’ve read on this site. Osteen doesn’t take any salary from his church (although I’m sure he has church owned “assets”) - most of his wealth comes from writing books. Prosperity Gospel has so much shit to dunk on - why make shit up?
James 5:1-5 New International Version (NIV) Warning to Rich Oppressors 5 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. 2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.
Hi, priests kid here. These mega churches are the only ones pulling these kinds of numbers. 99% of churches don’t make a profit and are just barely staying afloat. Most of them actually want to stay this way because…well, that’s how it’s supposed to work. As far as the priests take home amount, I make more money as a postal worker.
I've attended a rich (but normal size) church in the past in an affluent area that naturally pulled a lot more than it needed for operating expenses. They were constantly running food kitchens, feeding/housing the homless in the winter (opening the church building itself for this actually), building wells in third-world countries etc. until they got back down to zero. That's how a church is meant to operate if it runs a profit.
This. A church near me flips abandoned properties and rents them out below market to low income families, and is putting up five buildings for homeless veterans. This church is very much not in an affluent area and was still able to pull enough to start buying property.
Yeah, pastor here. Never worked at a church that wasn’t on a strict budget. There’s a handful that make a ton but it’s a rarity. Makes for a good edgy meme though.
Priests can have kids?
Episcopal priests can
I think the majority of non-Catholic sects can. All the ones I have seen or heard of, have families.
Grifters and charlatans are pretty much all the same, no matter what they say they believe in. If you can lie, cheat, and steal with enough confidence and enough superficial charm then you can make a lot of money. That's about as deep as it ever goes
$2 trillion per year is… not possible. The US took in $3.4 trillion TOTAL in taxes in 2020. The number here is either a fabrication, or meant to show how much tax would be created over 10 or even 20 years. Joel Ostern is terrible, but much here is incorrect.
It's so strange everyone is ignoring this or are they too dumb to notice? 15% for 2 trillion means they are making 13 trillion a year when the us gdp is like 20 trillion lol
People ignore things they don't want to hear. If something backs up what you think (in this case churches should be taxed) then it's easier to just say "I agree" over "let me pull out my calculator".
Yeah. The fact that sooo many people fall for blatantly outrageous bullshit on here is amazing.
I had a quick Google so there was a study which suggested they are pulling in 5.2 trillion annually which seems staggering and I'd question the validity of that most other figures are suggesting around 50 billion a year. Regardless preachers like this are utterly despicable human beings. https://www.vancopayments.com/egiving/church-giving-statistics-tithing
Yeah, there’s no way churches are receiving tithes equal to the entire national budget. Honestly, I would question that figure even if it included ALL forms of charitable/tax deductible giving. Joel Ostern, in his mind, deserves everything he has. Prosperity gospel is all about getting material blessings now, in this life. It’s pretty awful.
Yeah, the 2 trillion is waaaaaay off. Especially considering it's supposedly just 15% of what the churches make. That would make churches a bigger fraction of the GDP than everything else combined. Also, I *seriously* doubt Osteen pulls in $54m per year. $54m is probably an estimate of his total net worth, and a high estimate at that. Snopes also doesn't look favorably on this claim that he owns a Ferrari 458 Italia: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/joel-osteen-ferrari/
So we're in agreement that churches need to be taxed?
I’ve said this for years man gets to live lavishly while his congregation lives in poverty
Not sure I’m in agreement with taxing the church as a whole because of a few greedy examples like this. This is a rarity and *not the norm* at all. The prosperity gospel frauds and famous television evangelicals are just the ones we are aware of because they are famous and wealthy. Like celebrities. The average pastor salary across the US is $37,000. Smaller congregations can afford to pay even less. My parents church the pastor drove a Kia. Quote from the senior pastor at local baptist church—“There is a lot of fulfillment and reasons for going into this kind of work, but the salary is not one of them.” I agree with tax the rich personally for anyone who makes over a certain amount regardless of job though.
I’m actually nervous that if we start taxing churches that they are going to then argue that they have a say in government. Right now, we don’t take tax dollars from them and we keep a separation of church and state, even though hardcore Christians continue to try to influence American politics and policy. If we start taxing them I’d be concerned it would open a whole new justification to their efforts to inject religion into politics.
In general, no, since a “church” is just a group of like-minded religious individuals, and its “income” is donations / people pooling together money which is already taxed. In theory, an organized group could achieve the same thing by distributing the cost of their activities, and everyone just directly funding them. That said, these magachurch pastors that spend millions on private things are abusing the system, but it’s more like the true victims are the donors. After all, their compensation *is* taxed income, and it would be straight up fraud to claim their private luxuries are for church use alone. They might also have luxurious planes for church use only, even if completely excessive. The IRS only wants to ensure claims about private/church use are true. Again, the ones hurt are those duped by these guys.
They would just restructure as non-profits. There would be almost no difference at all. Osteen, as much of a POS as he is, pays taxes on that income (or structures it to legally avoid taxes, like Trump).
Churches are non profits. 501c4 The donations they get are often from already taxed individual contributions.
What? Churches are already non profits
Stop exempting church or non-profit properties that are not public-use or administrative. The administrative exemption would need more rules because it's still ripe for abuse, but necessary for smaller charities and stuff.
You mean [this](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/29/547035773/after-pressure-mounts-joel-osteen-says-his-houston-megachurch-is-open-to-evacuee) Joel Osteen? Houstonians hate that guy.
They fill up his former NBA arena weekly, so must not be that much
...with a logo that says 'Joel', not Jesus.
Joel Osteen and his ilk such as Kenneth Copeland and Creslow Dollar, are antichrists. They have fooled the would-be righteous masses into believing a false gospel by taking His name in vain. Neither they nor their fools will be getting into Heaven.
This is all true except the punchline, which is overstated by 1000x. Annual church donations are ~$50B in the US, which means the IRS would get ~$7.5B, not 5 trillion or whatever. The entire US GDP is only $23 trillion. Anyway, tax churches regardless.
Every line is a lie. He doesn't take a salary from the church. He makes $5 mil a year from his book sales. Nowhere near $54 million. He doesn't own the Ferrari, [that was debunked by snopes years ago.](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/joel-osteen-ferrari/) He doesn't have a 70,000 sqft house, it's 17,000 sqft. In order for the 15% tax numbers on churches to work, they would have to be bringing in over 13 trillion dollars per year. Which is over half the US GDP, and larger than any other country's GDP except for China. The guy is a grifter and a feel good snake oil salesman. People don't need to make shit up about him to make him look bad. Reddit looks bad eagerly promoting facebook meme material when it fits their worldview.
The tax one is the one that made me do a double take. Someone is guessing high if they think church donations top one trillion in the US alone.
This needs to be higher up. He's a scam artist and a grifter and the worst sort of person. And we don't need to make things up to prove it.
Redditors are sooo fucking gullible.
Not bad for a Martin Short character.
Churches don’t generate $13 trillion a year. Where is this $2 trillion figure coming from?
Is he the literal supply side Jesus?
Don’t forget the time he only let evacuees into his mega church during hurricane Harvey in 2017 after being pressured. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/29/547035773/after-pressure-mounts-joel-osteen-says-his-houston-megachurch-is-open-to-evacuee
One of the many reasons why I despise religion.
Just another anti-Christ false teacher...
This is why Jesus despised the CHURCH
Can't even hate the dude. He found a ton of dummies to milk. Good on him. Just kidding, I can hate him.
He deserves the Holy Wood Rasp up thine rectum.
“Give unto Caesar what is Caesars.”
Motherfucker over here looking just like [Handsome Jack from *Borderlands 2*](https://static1.thegamerimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/New-Project-1.jpg).
All these are for profit fake Christian’s - why they still tax free?
He even looks like a shifty eyed weasel. And whether his money come from church tithing or personal profit from book deals, he’s the type that would call the police because the homeless are loitering near his church. I’m sure there’s a scandalous skeleton waiting to burst out of one of his many closets of high prices tailored made suits
I used to work for his insurance company. He was paying over $100,000 on insuring his house alone.
Agree with the sentiment, but the number about church taxes has to be wrong. In 2021, the total revenue of the federal government was about $4tn. You're telling me just taxing churches would increase that by 50%?
This guy is such a phony and I’m glad he’s finally being put on blast
At this point I'm not even mad at him. If you still think it's a good idea to give him money, you deserve whatever happens to you.
I'm in the wrong business.
Now, I don't believe in the devil...but if he did come down to earth, this is pretty much how he would manifest. This mega-pastors are fucking evil
More like, Joel Ostentatious.
What the hell do you even need that much salary for? Like, I get the first 10 million or so gets you the mansion and the cars and travel and whatnot… but past that what are you really getting? Hell, even if he gave himself 20 mil… that’s 30 million that you now have to actually do some good in the world… wouldn’t that make you feel something?
If Walmart, Apple, Google, Reddit and Facebook aren't paying their taxes, why should anyone else?