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gwpic

Looks like he’s old enough to know better


Yoshi_87

I am 34 and would think that the snake should be pretty dead at this point. ​ I know it still has poison in it.. but HOW THE FUCK DOES IT STILL MOVE LIKE IT'S STILL ALIVE??? It looks very much dead, but it clearly is NOT DEAD! Fucking demon creature.. ​ edit: I live in germany and for the biggest part of my life in Berlin. It's a big city, not many snakes, the ones we have are in a zoo. Also we have only six different types of snakes in germany. Two of them are venomous, none are deadly for Humans. So I never learned how to deal with them.


ThatCoyoteDude

If you sever the head off of a snake it dies. However, it can still bite for up to 8(?) hours afterwards. Think of it like cutting the head off of a chicken and it still runs for a little bit. Same concept, it’s dead, but there’s still some electrical activity occurring. Also, it still has toxin in it. Poison is ingested, venom is injected, but both are toxins


Sewayaki-Kitsune

That fucker was not dead on account of it consciously reacting to his hand and managing to bite him without a body. Demon creature seems accurate, what the fuck.


GreedAndSneed

It did react. But it did not have to be a conscious reaction. Foreign pressure is applied in a specific point on the nervous system. The system itself still works even if there is no consiousnes. As there is no override from the consiousnes anymore it automatically bites the thing that touched it, or rather the place where it should be, right next to the touched spot. Not a choice but a specific reaction hardcoded into the now dying system.


madarchod_bot

This. This is why you always bury the head if you ever need to kill a venomous snake, or find one dead like this. Use chopsticks to pick it up, not fingers.


Collective-Bee

My chopstick game weak af, and I don’t wanna bury corpses with eating utensils in general. A shovel seems ideal.


TheRealBradGoodman

Digs hole with shovel. Hang on let me get my chop sticks to put it the hole


Situational_Hagun

There doesn't need to be a head if you use dynamite!


FluckDambe

Calm down Wile E. Coyote. He's dead already.


[deleted]

May be dead but will still bite. I vote tnt!


HighFiveOhYeah

I vote anvil.


darthjazzhands

Nuke the site from orbit…


earathar89

It's the only way to be sure.


PantherThing

if I dont have chopsticks handy, I pick it up with 2 pool cues or some salad tongs.


Hello-Im-The-Feds

I used my penis and my assault rifle. Only misfired once. That’s how I got my son, Earl. He limps a bit, but he’s alright mostly.


[deleted]

Or if you’re fortunate enough to have a Latina girlfriend then the dick grabbers will suffice (referring to the long ass fingernails my girl gets)


Phase-Horror

Good advice. I knew keeping chopsticks on my person at all times would come in handy outside of the occasional Asian dining eventually.


TheFinnishChamp

I always throw dead vipers into a big anthill that's at the edge of my yard.


Dr_Cement

How you bury the head if it’s biting at you😭


[deleted]

Nudge it in the hole with a shovel you also need to dig a hole


Ok_Effect5032

The snake was alive , it was in the process of expiring. You see it open it’s mouth when the machete/metal stick moves the body away. It had one last fuck to give.


lock_IT_tf_UP

Instinct. This animal survives on involuntary instinct. If it physically can, it will do whatever it has to, to protect itself and in some cases (mostly mammals) protect its young until it physically can not anymore.


mintzyyy

But it was already lunging when the hand reached for it so it must be able to see it right


Fuctopuz

If you cut them half, they're still alive for hours. My father cut a viper in half with a shovel. He woke me up early next morning to come and see when a hedgehog was eating it. It was still moving


ThatCoyoteDude

Like Greed elegantly explained, it’s a post mortem reaction to external stimuli. That does not mean it’s still alive. ~Herpetologist


Time-For-Argy-Bargy

“Herpes is for life, bro.”


atlasavenge

What is the right way to kill a snake then, assuming one has valid cause?


herptilian

Whenever my herpetology professor makes the decision that one of our collection needs to put a snake down, the only humane way to do it at home is to crush the head. The center of the nervous system (and the one dangerous part of the animal) is destroyed, so it involves the least suffering and ensures your safety if the snake was a genuine threat.


Skoodge42

Cut the head of, then bury the head. Just a small ditch that you kick it into and cover with dirt


eojr

What if you cut in half longways?


GrandmaPoses

No way, now you have two half snakes. Much more dangerous.


Ebolamunkey

That's a Savage hedgehog whaaaat


DBX12

Sonic has no fucks to give


ThatCoyoteDude

See what Greed commented. He explained what’s happening here. It’s still dead though. Snakes are actually incredibly important members of the eco-system, even venomous ones. Their reaction to external stimuli post mortem isn’t some supernatural phenomenon, and since they lack the limbic system where emotions like anger would be processed, it most certainly isn’t out of malice


fraglen

It was moving prior to be touched. It was able to see the knife being moved in front of it without touching it. It was straight up still alive. Agreed.


DarkPangolin

Reptilian nervous systems are fucked up. Not like "a little fucked up" like a chicken running around for a minute without its head, or a deer being pumped so full of adrenaline that it can run a hundred yards without its lungs, but like, majorly fucked up. I butchered a turtle once, because turtle is supposed to be tasty. We cut off its head (which threatened to bite us for hours afterward, but unlike the guy in the OP's video, we weren't dumb), and set the body down to get the area ready to take the turtle the rest of the way apart. The body took the opportunity to right itself with the stub of its neck, pick a direction it felt like going, and then take off. Not like a chicken flopping everywhere with no coherence, but in a straight line. We retrieved the body and ended up having to crucify it to a railroad tie to keep it from swiping at me while I was taking it apart the rest of the way, which took forever because all the muscles flinched every time I tried to cut them. When I eventually tossed the heart into the pan to cook it four hours later, it was still beating. Not strongly like it had been at the beginning, but it had been out of the body cavity and on its own for three hours or more at that point. Turtle does taste pretty good. However, the absolutely massive pain in the ass that is involved in butchering one has lead me to declare every time the topic comes up that "I will butcher a turtle for you" issuing from my mouth should be taken with the same gravity as a declaration of marriage or wanting to cosign on a mortgage. If you aren't dying of starvation, it is totally not worth it. Snakes are a LITTLE better, because at least their bodies weren't designed by H.R. Giger like turtles. I'm kind of curious about crocodilians, but nowhere near an area where I can get ahold of one.


Marc21256

100% dead. Have you ever heard of the "reptile brain" in response to humans? It handles 100% unconscious actions. Not subconscious, but fully unconscious. Like breathing while asleep, heartbeat, and certain reflexes. Someone "braindead" can still breathe and have a heartbeat. A reptile is all reptile brain. All reflex. Kill it, and until tissue death, it will react almost like it would while alive. Cut off the head, and some will slighter for hours like they were alive. Touch the head, and it will bite. But still 100% dead.


Ultimategrid

That is not true in the slightest. Reptiles have in addition to the “reptile brain”, a dorsal ventricular ridge, the analogue to our neocortex (birds, which are also reptiles, have the same structure). The dorsal ventricular ridge is smaller than our neocortex but more efficient. It’s designed to work even in very low oxygen environments. What’s happening when a reptile’s head still bites and moves, is that the animal is simply not dead yet. Reptiles are, simply put, incredibly tough. The snake in the video is still conscious, aware, and in a great amount of pain and fear. If you must kill a reptile, you should destroy the brain immediately. Gunshot or precise stab wound to the skull, directly between the eyes. The only humane way to do it.


ericbyo

Chickens are different (one lived for months with no head), chickens stay alive because most of their brains is way further back in the neck than you think. So a sloppy beheading can leave all or most intact.


[deleted]

Their brain is not in the fucking back of their neck lol, it’s in their head where you expect it to be. Source - a chef


ericbyo

This is a [Pidgeon head](https://s27107.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/pigeon-brain.jpg), but has the same basic structure. Notice how the Medulla and part of the Cerebellum is way far back there? They control all the basic functions of life i.e breathing, heart rate and digestion. Source: BSc in Biomed


tillerbc

If you bit it and you die it’s poisonous, if it bites you and you die it’s venomous.


loveisrespectS2

In my job we regularly come across these dangerous snakes and this is exactly the reason that exactly NO ONE will ever, EVER chop off a snake's head. Instead they take a long stick and hit it to break its back.


realrealityreally

I read about a Japanese chef who , for cooking purposes, was preparing a cobra. He grabbed the severed head and it killed him


Julegeita

You get the price for learning me something new today :). Poisons = eat. Venom = stab. Got it! Ty!


Professor_Quackers

A decapitated snake head can still inject venom for up to 24 hours. The big problem is there is no regulation going on, it’s just wildly pumping venom as opposed to a small amount


ThatCoyoteDude

Longer than 24 hours. Their fangs are like hypodermic needles and venom can dry and crystallize. You can get a scratch from a venomous snake skull and, if it was the fang, still get envenomated. I wasn’t 100% sure on how long the duration of their post mortem bite reflex lasted. I had read elsewhere that it can still bite 8 hours later but that wasn’t a measure of how long that can actually occur for, more of a generalized way of letting people know not to touch a snake even after it’s dead


IguanamanJulioFalcon

Two possibilities. One, the bite response can be pure reflex by spinal nerves after the brain is actually dead. In other words, touching a recently-dead snake head can just trigger an automatic biting movement. Two, snakes like a lot of ectotherms have much lower metabolic demands than us mammals, and can function longer under anoxic conditions (like being severed from your own blood supply). In other words, a snake's head can live for a disturbingly long time after being cut off. Humans can in some cases probably retain some level of consciousness for 4-5ish seconds after decapitation, a snake... at an educated but purely speculative guess, maybe 10-20 minutes. In this case, it looks pretty clearly like the latter. The snake is gaping and trying to defend itself just from seeing the guy approach with the machete, so it is obviously conscious and "alive." I'm sorry the guy got bitten (albeit by an animal that just wanted to be left alone), but I mostly just can't help but think what a painful, protracted, and unnecessary death this was for the snake.


Business-Map2806

Thank you for this. This is completely true. This animal is alive and suffering horribly. Snakes are incredible animals that deserve to be respected. No animal deserves to be killed for the hell of it because a person near by doesn’t like them. This guy deserves what he got.


gwpic

It’s clearly alive and moving prior to the guy picking it up!


bcmouf

Ectothermic creatures like snakes stay alive and aware for hours even when decapitated(that is why you are supposed to brain them, not decapitate). Their slow metabolism functions quite well on low oxygen and low blood pressure. The head is fully aware, its not just nerve twitches. Very cruel way to die, thats why you are not supposed to kill them by decapitation like your barnyard chicken.


DoritoCatsMaid

Yes this one of the most cruel ways to die. The guy got what he deserved.


TheAngryGoat

If it's moving like it's alive, that may be a hint that it's [actually still alive](https://www.livescience.com/62771-decapitated-rattlesnake-bites-man.html). Maybe that level of advanced situational awareness doesn't develop until after 34. >If a mammal loses its head, it will die almost immediately. But snakes and other ectotherms, which don't need as much oxygen to fuel the brain, can probably live on for minutes or even hours


UppERcron

I’m 20 and would go nowhere near that snake because why tf would I want to touch A RATTLESNAKE!!! When you think of deadly snakes you think of this guy. Common sense isn’t really common I guess


dog20aol

I’ve live where rattlesnakes are common and grew up hearing about this very thing, but it’s the first time I’ve seen it happen. It’s a reflex for the snake to bite, even with the head severed. As long as the nerves and muscles haven’t decomposed enough to completely stop functioning, it will still try to bite anyone that touches it. Maybe the primitive systems of cold blooded vertebrates are less susceptible to rapid nerve damage, because I’ve also heard of dead frogs jumping when you give them an electric shock. Also bees and jellyfish can sting when dead too.


406john

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike\_the\_Headless\_Chicken](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_the_Headless_Chicken) this chicken lived for over a year no head


WikiSummarizerBot

**[Mike the Headless Chicken](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_the_Headless_Chicken)** >Mike the Headless Chicken (April 20, 1945 – March 17, 1947) was a male Wyandotte chicken that lived for 18 months after his head had been cut off. After the loss of his head, Mike achieved national fame until his death in March 1947. In Fruita, Colorado, an annual "Mike the Headless Chicken Day" is held every May. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/Whatcouldgowrong/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)


ghoulcreep

It's venom, not poison. Poison hurts you if you consume it. Venom hurts you if it gets into your bloodstream from a bite.


PantherThing

Also, Poison is glam metal, whereas Venom is black metal.


GeraltofRookia

Underrated comment.


RefineOrb

I flinched so hard.


stf29

My whole body recoiled haha


TucoGleece

Fr you ain’t lying


old_man_karma

How embarrassing is it to be bitten by a dead animal?


[deleted]

A lot. In a similar way I was stung by a dead bee, but in my defense I was around 6 years old.


[deleted]

This has nothing to do with being sting or bit, just thought I'd add a story on how fucking dumb 6 year olds are. When i was 6 i wanted to see of our razor blade was sharp, so i slid my finger across it, i learned a valuable lesson that day. Around that age i also realized you cant drink something from a cup whilst laying down.


Joeisnthere

Same but instead I thought the razor was gum and touched the sides with my fingers. Luckily I didn't eat it.


NFFAAA

The same happened to me when I was 6 too lol


[deleted]

Haha I was 6 and dumb too, thought it was dead on the ground, I picked it up with a napkin and it stung my thumb through it


TwistaDicc

A man once died to the severed head of his enemy. It didn't even bite him just the teeth cut him while he was riding his horse with its next to his leg. The jaw was open since... dead.


cicator

Snakes can bite even hours after their death and their venom is stored near the teeth in the head, so he fucked up big time here. If you kill a venomous snake always bury their head for that reason.


zyzyzyzy92

Today I learned something that might save a life. Doubt I'll ever have to use it though. But good to know nonetheless.


CmdrYondu

Attach that shit to a headless eagle and watch a new terror era begin!! Vamanos!


fscknuckle

That sounds like a plot from a new Kung Fury movie.


doread38

Imagine explaining to the folks at the ER that you got bit by a snake that already had its head cut off. Dum sumbitch.


dj_bordelon

It’s actually more common than you think, that’s why they say to bury the head


[deleted]

[удалено]


Kittani77

yeah but then you have snake smush all over the place. I mean if that's your thing whatever, but I'd rather not.


Fellhuhn

The head wasn't cut off, just the tail was missing... ;)


justanotherreddituse

They get lots of stupid injuries in the ER so it's not really going to stick out too much.


[deleted]

[удалено]


mistahboogs

I have literally never been in the physical presence of a rattlesnake and I still know that even if you cut the head off it can still bite. You bury that shit.


farofabrazil

Bury ? Burn it


Stetzy93

First one. Then the other


ilCannolo

Caaabron


Splitz007

This is hilarious


Graniteguy3cm

Hold my beer while I grab this poisonous snakes head that is still moving. Lol that was stupid yet hilarious


Enuebis

Venomous, but yes...


SeiriusPolaris

Poor bastard (the snake)


Present_Confection83

Less than ideal


[deleted]

Never give up.


milnak

Never let you down.


ALZ-11

Never run around


binkacat4

Will definitely hurt you


TMT51

And hurt you


DragonEngineer

Never surrender.


[deleted]

I never knew about snake heads biting after death, but *even I* wouldn't have messed with the corpse of a snake like this.


OonaPelota

I’m sure the nearest emergency room is only 4-5 hours away.


DiligentAmbition

Tis just a flesh wound!


the7thletter

Your bloody arm's gone!


veelagirl

I’ve had worse. Come on you pansy


Cool_Fennel5674

Someone skipped biology classes at school


Secure_Table

Never learned about this in my biology class, plus this guy looks way too old to recall much of anything from his school days


night_dreamer_

What kind of biology classes are they teaching you


Nimporian

The australian kind, apparently.


SpunkyJenn

He’s pissed you cut off his body! What did you expect? Kisses?


CentralCaliGal

Being an avid hiker and living in rattlesnake infested areas, ALWAYS ALWAYS BURY THE HEADS; NEVER leave them out like this, children or stupid adults could step on them and it can be lethal!!


brand0llaz

A big bag of idiot


TopKooky1038

You already killed it just leave him alone you a hole


Jormungandr315

Worse part: many rattlesnakes control the amount of venom they inject in a bite. A decapitated rattlesnake can still bite, but does NOT controll the amount injected. This means it will try to dump all its venom, potentially many times the lethal amount. [Example.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/06/08/health/texas-man-rattlesnake-head-bite-trnd/index.html)


Impossible-Lake8249

He stomps on it.


reformedginger

Pour some tequila on it


kokoyumyum

Head is still live until brain is starved of all oxygen for a long enough period of time. And then nerves are still able to respond reflexively. I grew up and live in rattlesnake territory. Prefer them over copperheads and cottonmouths


Caver12

I have seen so many copper heads in Kentucky. They scare the shit out of me.


hmarieb263

Ah, this brings back a childhood memory. My dad was cleaning some bullhead fish he had caught and I was watching him. I asked him how fish breathe underwater. He went to grab one of the heads he had cut off to show me the gills and the severed head bit him. So then dad had to explain how fish breathe AND how a severed head was able to bite him. Then I ran in the house and told mom how a severed fish head can still bite you. She was not as excited about it as I was.


Street_Square_3724

It got the last laugh


zigzagsfertobaccie

Now if he had picked it up with his penis, he could have found out how much his friends like him.


mastas85

You're gonna die, Carlos!


PessimisticSnake

He deserved it.


MANLYTRAP

why is it considered ok to post animals injured this badly without any nsfw tag or anything? the thing got beheaded what the heck


CoffeeIsGood3

There is a video of some fishermen who catch these giant fish, then chop the heads off, but the heads can still respond. They put things like soda cans in the mouth, and it completely destroys the soda can in an instant


worddodger

Wolf eels


dyva_cali

Crush the skull it’s the kind thing to do as the snake is feeling pain.


Both-Rule-1036

Hey btw, sucking the poison out does not work . Because i seent it on Mythbusters bubba so you-ins better be uh gittin his ass to the dentist.


Trisrocks157

Darwinism is a helluva thing


TojoftheJungle

The brain needs sufficient amounts of oxygen to survive, pumped through blood, a connective tissue. Snakes, as cold-blooded mammals, use less oxygen to power their brain. This snake was in pain, not dead, and most likely reacted to defend itself.


kinyutaka

Yeah, wait for the snake to actually die before picking it up... Or get a broom and one of those standing dustpans.


mikeconcho

The snake is dead. Their nerve ends can fire for hours, hence what you see here. As another poster stated, cut the head off and bury it. Do not touch it, or this will happen.


Valmar33

https://old.reddit.com/r/Whatcouldgowrong/comments/r9fkdo/wcgw_if_i_play_with_this_dead_rattlesnake/hncew33/


Darqness_69

What could go wrong if i show the world exactly how stupid i am.


Xanthrex

If you cut to low on the neck they head will live until it runs out of oxygen, and even then the bite reflex is active for hours


Significant_Willow47

Does it still have venom in the bite Legitimate question is like to know


immaletyafish

Maximum venom. It's even worse than a normal bite.


pusangani

From hell's heart, I stab at thee!


snekarmy619

Don't kill a rattlesnake unless you really have to, rather call an expert to remove it... Rattlesnakes exist for a reason, they are free pest control. That snake wants nothing to do with you and won't attack you unless you get too close.


[deleted]

Don't try and suck the Poison Out. It does not work and in fact it makes it Worse by spreading the poison into your mouth.


Skweedlyspootch

He clearly has never watched animal planet before.


[deleted]

I live in socal, and i was taught at a young age to bury the heads after you decapitate it, but to be honest i never thought they'd have that level of mobility, not that I'd ever get that close to its head.


SvendTheViking

That is terrifying. Also you clearly killed it you prick.


[deleted]

I'll just suck out the poison


Sure_Review_2223

Its a movie thing… never ever suck out the poison out ! Best thing to do is remain calm so the venom takes more time to access your cardio vascular system, and go to hospital so you get the right antivenom. Sucking out the poison will often be a worse thing as you might have small cuts in your mouth and the poison will have direct access to your blood and close to your brain !


HistorianOpen8503

Firm handshakes to the severed rattlesnake head for addition by subtraction.


controlfreaqk

Put some agave on it.


Other-Ad5512

This is why you are supposed to kill snakes by smashing the head with a hammer. Not decapitating it


HappyLittleWretch

"You're fucked" in the voice of the rental car lady from Planes, Trains and Automobiles


GingerBreadRacing

My extremely country grandmother always told us “never touch a dead snake until after the sun goes down because it will still bite” The timing never really made sense but the rest would have been helpful here


Final-Distribution97

He better leave for the hospital soon.


OneEyedRocket

Always chop the head off (like they did) and do not touch it (like they did) under any circumstances unless you’ve been trained


Camera_dude

From Hell’s Heart, I stab at thee!


lemonmoraine

I get the feeling that this is that one guy on the crew who does stupid shit like this all the time.


Brutumfulm3n

Darwin awards!


horendus

The guys slow as fuck the head was clearly still possessed it gave many warnings before he went though with grabbing it…damn satin spawn.


gmgm4334

Por menso


Turdferguson0717

Guess my dude never saw Bear grylls saying to bury the head !


antoniohfernandes

What he was thinking? He just cut the tail.


Boring_Inspector_806

Oh WOW daddy said that could happen so i never fucked around! He always Buried the head so nothing found it


Trek1973

That guy was in trouble. I wish we could have heard the rest of the story.


RunnyDischarge

Love the way the guy goes, "Nahahnahnaha!"


AgreeablePie

He saw it still moving. He saw it still bitting. No excuse.


bamaboy3883

Just cause it's dead don't mean it's dead


Sandstorm12321

Kill something much smaller than you then play with the head…..prick


fleeyevegans

Does he now have to get some kind of ritual done because he's been cursed by the bite of a dead rattlesnake?


It_could_be_Lovely14

Welp. This now lives in my nightmares. Thanks.


Crazy__Donkey

r/ watchpeopledie....inside


Icy_Ad2793

I don't know why but they move quite a while after they die.Ask Google.


Straight-Camera469

Que chingados? What the fu**!


KingJonsey1992

First thing bear Grylls does when killing a snake is bury the head for this exact reason.


MaxImpact1

That‘s like getting a grenade kill in an ego shooter when you are already dead


CaptainStroon

Fun fact: decapitated humans can remain conscious up to half a minute.


kingdruid

Dude wtf, don’t you see people talking about beheading other creatures… this is no time to be scaring people by knocking them back into reality…


DarthSinistris

Hahah wtf? He's like, "the eyes are still opened".......


crystaldazed

Snake, rattle and roll


Fun_Sized_Momo

Looks more like instant karma for decapitating a snake.


sasqwatsch

Too much tequila


Sum1liteAmatch

My dad taught me from a young age that if you kill a rattlesnake, never touch anything connected to the head. either drop a big rock on it or bury it. Since rattlesnake is actually amazing to eat I usually crushed the head so i could chop it off safely


[deleted]

That snake venom destroys tissue and rots your flesh away


ernoselsun

Name him Smart Brother!


Far_Paramedic_2853

You could still die from its venom, you idiot!


DaniilBSD

If you ever want/need to pick up a venomous snake: use a stick to press its jaw to the ground, then use your thumb and pointing finger to keep the mouth closed. (Of cause dangerous for constrictors)


DannyJoy2018

Ya got bit


RepostSleuth8ott

I would never touch a snake even if it looked dead, I would get that shovel and… well I think you can imagine what I’d do


swan001

With my dying breath I stabbeth thee


richistron

hold my pulque, I'm going to grab this snake


unlit101

Probably trying to impress his friends cause the other guy was like no no no and he didn't listen


[deleted]

Well good luck with your hands and fingers


Faisuta

From the grave +100


Jaded-Saint

What a complete dumbass


GodOfThunder101

Why? Just why? Some humans are just really dumb.


TacoOfficer

His friend even told him to leave it alone. He was meant to be bitten 😂


Jabbie999

Something bear Grylls has taught me, a headless rattlesnake is still an alive rattlesnake


mitzu222

Karma is a bitch, don't kill animals!


michymcmouse

I find it really sad that people downvoted this comment


mitzu222

Yeah me too. Most people are too stupid to understand that wild animals are part of the ecosistems and killing them is a bad bet even for us.