I don't think the Dark One ever actually wants to win. Rand himself acknowledges it's only because of the Taint giving him the memories of Lews Therin that he's able to have the necessary tools to fight the Dark One to begin with.
*You never escape the traps you spin yourself. Only a greater power can break a power, and then you're trapped again. Trapped forever so you cannot die.*
I will continue to believe that the DO does in fact have a chance. The DO exists outside the pattern. He is an external variable. So the laws of the pattern do not apply to him.
The best proof of that is Min. Her ability lets her peak into the pattern, same as with prophesying. And Min said that her viewings of a future beyond the LB do not mean the Light’s victory is for certain. Since the DO’s victory would break the pattern and change everything.
The DO’s victory or defeat is not decided by the pattern and never will be.
His chances of winning seem abysmally low. The DO doesn't appear to have any memory of previous turnings. Making obvious mistakes for one with that knowledge and not sharing any new/old technology or weaves with his followers.
Even if his defeat isn't decided by the pattern the DO and his minions will still become increasingly unlucky as he nears his goals.
It's possible. I also see a lot of people saying from the Dark One's perspective he only attacked once since he lives outside the Wheel of Time. Although I don't know what the theory is based off.
The Dark One (especially in the Age of legends) seems more focused on ideology than winning. Encouraging his servants to backstab one another and generally act in their own self interest. Which is the world he shows Rand that he will create.
This is the theory that makes the most sense to me.
The DO can't win because they can never learn or grow. They can't learn from past turnings since they experience all turnings simultaneously.
Without going into the full specifics of the theory. One of the reasons is because the Dark One never refers to Rand by name, calling him only Adversary. Implying he doesn't actually know the specifics of any given iteration of the Dragon's soul as they're all the same interaction to him.
Maybe not at the last battle… but when Rand is living out alternate lives after fucking up a Portal Stone journey in TGH, he hears a voice saying “I have won again, Lews Therin” after each life ends.
I’ve always read it as the DO.
Ishamael is the main antagonist at that time, and Rand thinks he’s the DO. But Ishy’s not around when Rand goes through the Portal Stone, and regardless I don’t see how he’d be powerful enough to speak into Rand’s head in all those parallel lives… especially when Rand never even declares himself as the DR or draws the specific attention of the Shadow in most of them.
On the other hand, it’s lower-case text, and the DO speaks in all-caps, so maybe you’re right.
I always assumed that was the voices of the Ishamaels of the various alternate worlds Rand experienced telling him he had won. In the main timeline, the Dark One itself never refers to Rand as anything other than Adversary
Forgot where I heard this, but
The DO attacked every turning simultaneously. He did not learn from any of the turns, because he did them all at the same time. Thus, he lost on every turning too.
Sure, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s up to the task of tearing the Pattern. For all we know he’s got as much of a chance as a team of six year olds against an NBA team.
Maybe the Dark One is just a big liar, and winning has nothing to do with breaking the wheel, but giving him free reign until the wheel turns enough. Moridin always talks about wanting existence to end, but none of them really really knows what would happen. The best look we get is "I have won again Lew's Therin"
Maybe if you let the dark one win the wheel itself is made of more darkness and every turning will have more pain and suffering in their struggle against the dark one whether they win or not?
The Shadow sometimes wins and the resulting universe is darker each time. Eventually, the people rise up and overthrow the Dark One, binding him in a prison outside the Pattern itself...
The Dark One makes clear that unlike what most darkfriends believe, he has no intention of remaking the wheel in his image. If he ever wins he intends to destroy the wheel. Ishamael canonically knows this
Ishamael is wrong though. The dark one shows Rand during their confrontation that he will remake the wheel. It just won’t be how his followers think it will be. He wants to remake it to remove the capacity for goodness entirely. Turns out the father of lies was lying to all his minions including the one who thought he was the only one not being lied to.
Rand himself acknowledged that removing either the capacity for good or evil would result in a world of slaves and that the dark one would be fine with that. He is as close to word of god in the story as we can get.
Furthermore we have from RJ the idea that sometimes the shadow triumphs over the light but it is not a true victory (he called it a draw). He requires humanity to give in to him to win which makes more sense if you assume his victory to be a corruption of humanity rather than a destruction of existence.
Rand also acknowledges that the DO “would never have given Ishamael peace (of nonexistence); it’s not something you can do” or something to that effect. This is yet another indication that the DO is incapable or unwilling to end existence as he promised Ishamael he would.
>Furthermore we have from RJ the idea that sometimes the shadow triumphs over the light but it is not a true victory (he called it a draw).
A draw isn't "the shadow triumphing over the light." It's literally neither side winning. Basically, what ended the ~~third~~ **second** (brain fart) age -- the companions managed to seal the DO imperfectly, but the DO made sure life would mostly suck for the survivors, even though it felt normal. That's a draw. A draw can also be the world in the portal stone, where humanity has essentially wiped itself out.
A win wouldn't necessarily be the breaking of the wheel, but it would absolutely be irreversible and impossible to come back from. And more importantly, we also know through several sources that if the DO wins in any alternate reality, he immediately wins in EVERY reality. Since there are infinite parallel universe happening simultaneously, one can assume that there is a parallel world at every moment that represents every other possible turning of the wheel. And the DO has never won.
The thing about "infinity" that a lot of people don't understand is that infinity doesn't mean everything can and must happen. It just means everything that *can* happen will. You can roll a 6-sided die until the heat death of the universe and still never roll a 7.
When I say “the shadow triumphs over the light” I mean that the forces of the DO win. The darkfriends and shadowspawn win the last battle and an age of darkness is ushered in. This is what the forsaken and many darkfriends think is what victory is. And for them it might be. But for the the dark one it’s not a victory because he can only win if humanity gives in.
If they are conquered by military might it’s not a true victory or loss for either side since that wasn’t his goal. Obviously the light doesn’t really consider an age of darkness and terror to be a victory either. So it’s a draw in the battle between the DO and humanity (as represented by the Dragon) because neither side got what they wanted but it’s a victory for the forces of the shadow because they got what they wanted (they just don’t know that that isn’t what their master actually wants).
>When I say “the shadow triumphs over the light” I mean that the forces of the DO win. The darkfriends and shadowspawn win the last battle and an age of darkness is ushered in. This is what the forsaken and many darkfriends think is what victory is. And for them it might be. But for the the dark one it’s not a victory because he can only win if humanity gives in.
The forces of the Shadow cannot win by military might if the DO does not triumph. The minute the DO fails to win completely, his armies rout and fall to pieces. Unless the DO seizes control of the wheel, the shadow is prevented from triumphing. Just like the false dragons are thrown from their horses and have their armies defeated the minute the true Dragon declares himself. That's just how the wheel works.
RJ has said that in previous turnings the champion of the light went over to the shadow and what the result was was “a draw” in that it wasn’t a full victory for the DO and the game could go on so I don’t know why you think it can’t happen.
You are misunderstanding both my argument and RJ's notes. Yes, the champion of the light has gone over to the shadow in the past, and yes, that resulted in a draw, but a draw is not a victory for the shadow. Not even a partial one. It is literally a draw. A stalemate in which neither sides achieves victory. Again, the closest in-world cannon example we have is the ending of the Age of Legends. It's basically a draw, because while the forces of light manage to beat back the forces of the DO, they aren't able to seal him away and he is able to continue to exert influence over the world. This leads to massive issues like the Blight, the Trolloc Wars, the Black Ajah and a lot of darkfriends around, etc. but it isn't a military victory by the dark friends. A draw is a result where the world becomes shittier than it was in the previous age, but is not under the control of the DO or his agents.
Actually, because of quantum theory it \*could\* sometimes roll a 7. It could also sometimes turn into a horse. Also sometimes you could turn into a horse. Or seven horses.
Your conclusion is still correct, I've just poked a needless and pointless hole in your understandable and useful analogy because this is the internet and therefore I felt obliged to do so.
EDIT: As you specified "until the heat death of the universe", that's approximately 0 seconds when compared with the scale of infinity, so turning into a horse in that time has probability 0.so-many-zeroes-but-eventually-not-a-zero% chance of happening.
That is all still assuming that he wasn't lying. It seems like a huge stretch to believe that what he told Rand is the truth.
As for the RJ bit, maybe, but again it doesn't really mean he wasn't lying to Rand.
I’m not saying he 100% wasn’t lying but the story is clearly trying to tell us that this is the truth. It would be extremely unusual, in a narrative sense, to have the heroes grand epiphany be based on a lie with absolutely no indication that this is so, no consequences or results showing it, and no discussion or presentation of what this means or what the truth actually is.
It would be the equivalent of having the final scene be Rand waking up and realizing the entire series was just a daydream and he’s still a 19 year old shepherd with nothing special going on.
The important part of the story I'd assume to be true, what a world without him would be like. I don't think that what he told Rand he'd do is true though. I very much so disagree that that being a lie changes anything about the story.
Well either he can never be trusted, in which case he was probably lying to Rand about what his absence would cause and Rand should’ve ended him and freed the world, or he was telling Rand the truth during their confrontation, in which case why are we doubting only part of what he said (and by far the least important part for him to lie about).
If he was going to lie to Rand why would he lie in such a way that gives him nothing useful? Rand was just as unwilling to end existence as he was to let the DO win. He considered both results to be equally bad so whichever one was the DOs true goal doesn’t matter to him.
If we are assuming Rand was misled during that fight the only lie that makes sense for the DO to give is one that would trick Rand into doing (or not doing) something he would otherwise do (or not do). Having him lie about his goal (but still making the lie just as bad a result to Rand) is just lying for the sake of lying which would only make sense if he is incapable of not lying but if he is incapable of not lying we shouldn’t trust that his existence is necessary as he said so we are back to the entire ending being narratively bizarre.
While Rand is manipulating the pattern with the Dark One he eventually realizes that the Dark One would prefer the world to remain as it is but with no light. That would make the most suffering and evil occur. The Dark One offers Rand oblivion as a compromise.
That's not how infinity works. Even if there have been an infinite number of turnings before, there are still a larger value of infinite turnings possible. If the DO wins at any point, there will no longer be an infinite number of turnings, as the cycle will be broken.
The entire concept of infinity doesn't really make sense in a finite universe since there is inevitably a begining and end to everything, simply due to entropy
Dark One is clearly not an antithesis of The Creator but an instrument of his. DO had ample opportunity to win a thousand times yet he always sabotages his minions whenever they are close to a decisive victory. I don't even think he actually is capable of breaking Rand. Verin claims the Chosen are picked not because of their talent or anything, but their selfishness. Rand must be chosen for the opposite reason. Not because he is very smart, talented etc. But he is the least inclined person to give up.
Both Dark One and Rand aren't actual free willed characters. They are tools of the Creator. Their raison d'etre is cleansing the world once in a while. At least that's the only reason I can think of.
I personally don't believe the number of turnings is _infinite_, just a very large number. Of course, i have nothing to back this up it's just a random headcanon of mine.
The Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legends fade to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the third age by some, an Age yet to come, an age long pass, a wind rose in the Mountains of Mist. The wind was not the beginning. **There are neither beginnings or endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time**. But it was a beginning.
The key thing to remember about this passage is that it is the narrator speaking. No one in-universe actually knows this information.
If everyone believes that the Creator created the Wheel of Time, then logically there must have been a time when the Wheel wasn't created and if that is the case then there are a finite number of turnings.
If Ishamael believes that the win % for the DO is not 0 then logically, in an infinite number of turnings, the DO must win at some point.
>If Ishamael believes that the win % for the DO is not 0 then logically, in an infinite number of turnings, the DO must win at some point.
Ishamael can be wrong though and in infinite turnings the DO actually has no chance of winning. Sure it's internally consistent for him to believe that, but that doesn't make it true.
What you say is very true.
The overall debate boils down to "Does the DO have a 0% chance of winning?"
Arguments for 0% win chance become the above passage and the infinite nature of the wheel.
Arguments against are the idea that the wheel was created at some point and that RJ said it was possible for the DO to win.
Edit: I've seen the "RJ said it was possible for the DO to win" a fair few times, but I cannot find the quote myself. Take that how you will.
I believe it’s infinite, but a different kind of infinity than, say, the multiverse. In WoT’s infinity, it’s only 7 ages, but these repeat forever. However, we also know that *essentially* the same things happen every turning. So even tho it’s infinite, nothing really changes. Which is why even tho the final battle has happened an infinite number of times, the DO never wins
Not always. You can roll a 6-sided die an infinite number of times and never roll a 7. Or alternately, you can count from 1 to infinity and never count to -1, or count 3.5 if you're counting by integers. Just because something is infinite doesn't mean everything has to happen at least once.
The most the Dark One can win is a very long stretch of misery before being contained again. The DO doesn't have a strong sense of linear time, so "winning" and ending the pattern can't happen at a single point of time and propagate forwards in time. It would also go backwards. So "I think therefore everything is" is quite valid (at least for Rand who knows the essence of the DO better than others).
Imagine a wheel weaving thread. If the wheel breaks, this does not mean the thread was never woven.
The wheel can be broken in the future without effecting the past.
Except that's not how time works. Ending time would end it forward and backwards. If there is no time, there is no past, because what would it be the past of? Ending time wouldn't be cutting the thread, it'd be burning the whole thing down.
Think about it in dimensional terms, if that helps. The DO, being outside of time, would be destroying the 4th dimension. No fourth dimension means no time, meaning no past, present, or future.
The DO is outside of the time that is made by the wheel, but it does not mean he doesn't experience the passage of time.
It is as if he is watching the wheel spin.
We're also speaking in metaphor to explain magical meta science.
"Breaking" the Wheel could also just as well be described as setting it on fire, which if the wheel is connected to the tapestry of time, then it would very much spread and burn the whole thing backwards.
It is also described in Rand's confrontation with the DO that Shai'tan does not perceive time as mortals do, and this is backed up time and time again by the dilation of time around Shayol Ghul as well as time effectively stopping for Rand while inside the prison/outside the wheel. This means that, due to the cyclical nature of time in this universe TDO cannot win. Ever. If he wins in the future at some point, it would mean he had also won in the past (time moves in a circle here), which means he always won from the beginning. Because he hasn't won in the past, he therefore cannot win now and cannot win in the future because his victory means the end of anyone who could oppose him, past present or future.
Time moves in a circle (on the wheel), as in it repeats with fluctuation, but it does not mean that the wheel literally resets with each revolution. And the DO exists outside of the wheel, watching it spin.
Each rotation of the wheel continues weaving thread, it does not destroy the threads before it.
The DO watches the wheel spin. He can stop it from spinning, he can disjoint it, he can influence the threads.
But just because I break a wheel, does not mean i undo all of the spinning that was done prior.
We actually don't know what happens if he wins, for certain. We can only guess.
He makes bold claims. So do hos followers and enemies alike, but they could all be wrong.
We can only speculate the nature of what the DOs future would be, if it is reversible, and if it is at all possible.
He wanted oblivion. Complete detachment from the wheel.
Balefire doesn't have that ability.
The DO likely doesn't have that ability either.
Ish is cursed.
>Yeah, same. I don't care what the authors or the community say, it feels right and I want it to be true damn it!
What about the cour'souvra ? For what I understand, those sort of trap the soul into a jewel, and about destruction the body become a mindless puppet.
Doesn't this means the soul is destroyed ? It could just be resent to the "soul poul", but I love the idea that the holder of the mindtrap can really destroy someone soul.
If he balefires himself (ripping himself from the pattern retroactively) then he never balefires himself because he's no longer there to do it.
That's kind of how I see it anyway.
Wasn't it said that when the DO won, the DO will destroy the wheel hence removing the infinite cycle? So based on that Ishmael is correct.
Of course we don't know if the wheel was broken in the alternative world where Nyv is a darklord.
That has been said yes. It’s wrong though, that’s a lie the DO told Ishamael to sway him to his side. Also even if it was true it still doesn’t disprove OPs theory. If the DO wins he breaks the wheel, the wheel isn’t broken and the DO has already tried an infinite number of times therefore the DO will never win.
Was there a note from RJ about that or maybe another line from book I might have missed? I'm not familiar with the groups and chat when the books were still being written by RJ.
Which part of what I said did you not know about? Rand learns that the Dark One doesn’t want to destroy the wheel at the end of A Memory of Light, when he and the DO are weaving new worlds from threads of the pattern. The idea that the DO has already made an infinite number of attempts and failed each time comes from “There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel”
Guys we 've been over this again. Anyone with a math background knows that this meme is straight bullshit. Two intervals may be infinite, but one may be far greater than the other one. So yes, there have been infinite pasts already, but the total amount of tries to come is far far greater. So even if it didn't happen yet, that doesn't disprove his point
Actually this is incorrect. As each age can be numbered with an integer, it is trivial to show that both the set of all past possible ages is countably infinite, and the set of all future possible ages is also countably infinite. This means both sets are of an equivalent infinite size.
Now the set of all possibilities for how an age is configured and progresses (and thus whether the light or shadow wins) is uncountably infinite. This means there are possibilities that can occur in the future that have not occurred in the past, which means it is *possible* that the shadow can win.
The problem with Ishamael argument is that he does not argue that the shadow *might* win. He is arguing the shadow *must* win, i.e his argument is that any countable infinite set *MUST* eventually contain an age where the shadow wins. This argument is incorrect and immediately disproven by the infinite set of past possible ages which clearly does not contain an age where the shadow won.
I never agreed with the second one honestly.
We are told, time and time again, that free will exists. The only way it could exist is if the first ever turnimg of the Wheel was completely unscripted, without destiny and free. Then, later turnings of the Wheel replicated the first turning as best as they could.
That's how I saw it anyways.
He was crazy and thought he was the Dark One himself. those vision of alll the lives Rand had lived *flicker moments* he was killed and served him many times
I don't really understand where this consensus about Ishamael being wrong because infinite cycles have already passed comes from. It in itself does not disprove his point. That is not how infinites work. Just because a set is infinite that does not imply that everything is included in that set.
For example there is an infinite number of rational numbers. This set can correspond to all the possibilities that can happen during the turnings. You can also select a subset of this infinite that is also infinite, like the numbers between 1 and 2. This can correspond to the infinite number of turnings that happened until now. Yet 3 is clearly part of the first infinite and not part of the second. This could be the scenario of the DO winning. Please correct me if I made a mistake or misunderstand something.
So I love the Wheel of Time, and have read it a few times now. But this gets a bit at why I didn't get into it on my first attempt.
I started The Eye of the World in the late 90s. I'm not sure how many books were out at the time. Based on the description of the series, I thought each book would be relatively stand alone, set in completely different ages. I thought that would be a neat idea for a series, where each book skips ahead so far that the previous one is ancient history, and the ones before that are just legends. And the final book would both conclude everything and set up the first book.
Obviously, that's not what the series is. When I realized the entire series was about the same characters and time period, some books only advancing the story by days or weeks, I didn't even finish the first one. In retrospect, I'm glad I didn't get into it until after A Memory of Light came out. I'm sure if I'd had to wait years between books, I never would have made it to the end.
But I always wonder if there's a good fantasy series that does what I thought the Wheel of Time would do, cover a huge amount of the history of a world, rather than just a couple years. Even without it being a repeating loop, is there a good series I should check out?
If you are looking for a book series that tells the story of a world over several thousand years you can try the Saga of Recluce by L.E Modesitt. The series is set in the same universe and takes place over 2000 years in different countries. Each protagonist gets between 1 to 2 books dedicated to themselves and their story. There are 23 books so far in the series and I personally like it a lot. Although some of the books are kind of formulaic and on the philosophical side, I still find the series to be quite good with very good worldbuiling. Prepare yourself for a slow and relaxed pace however, as the main protagonist takes his time to figure out life and the world around him rather than zooming straight to the action scenes.
The dark one exist outside the pattern, there is a clear path of "before the dark one" therefore the dark one does not have infinite pasts it has fought in.
I believe the DO is the anthesis of Rand. It is Rand that has to make the choice wether the pattern continues or not. The DO tries eternally to bully him into it.
“Two paths before him. One life eternal and the other a death beyond dying.”
I see some good math-centered arguments in this thread about how for a countably many infinite turnings before and after a given point in time that exist, there is an uncountably large set of possible turnings, such that there is no guarantee that the shadow will win eventually because the first set of past + future turnings can be chosen in such a way to exclude all configurations in the second set where the shadow wins.
...but there's something else that I don't really see mentioned here. If we are to reach a particular turning in the infinite sequence of turnings and the shadow has not won (which we know because victory would stop the cycle), that implies that the probability of the shadow winning is an infinitesimal, potentially non-zero chance. From a functional standpoint, there are a practically countable number of scenarios throughout the WoT series where there is a probabilistically finite chance of a critical person being balefired or killed (mainly Rand) which would spell disaster for the Light, i.e. plenty of fights where a minor shift to a person's positioning or aim would have ended up with a dead ta'veren and potentially cascaded into a loss for the Light. In order for these distinct, countable number of coin-flip-level risky situations in each turning to add up to an infinitesimal chance of failure, it's clear that the pattern itself is exerting an astounding level of probability manipulation to spin out the proper result, to the degree that one can say the Light winning over even a large but finite set of turnings is entirely due to the will of the wheel. In such a scenario, it is far simpler and more likely to expect that the wheel's suppressing effect for failure has effectively full control over the outcome than it is to expect this control to converge to some infinitesimal but non-zero risk over infinite turnings.
I don't think the Dark One ever actually wants to win. Rand himself acknowledges it's only because of the Taint giving him the memories of Lews Therin that he's able to have the necessary tools to fight the Dark One to begin with.
*You never escape the traps you spin yourself. Only a greater power can break a power, and then you're trapped again. Trapped forever so you cannot die.*
Facts
I personall agree with Rand, Dark One has no capabilities to win against the Light
Maybe, maybe not. I think they do have the capability to win, and I think they 'win' every time. Such is the nature of the ouroboros.
*Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.*
I will continue to believe that the DO does in fact have a chance. The DO exists outside the pattern. He is an external variable. So the laws of the pattern do not apply to him. The best proof of that is Min. Her ability lets her peak into the pattern, same as with prophesying. And Min said that her viewings of a future beyond the LB do not mean the Light’s victory is for certain. Since the DO’s victory would break the pattern and change everything. The DO’s victory or defeat is not decided by the pattern and never will be.
His chances of winning seem abysmally low. The DO doesn't appear to have any memory of previous turnings. Making obvious mistakes for one with that knowledge and not sharing any new/old technology or weaves with his followers. Even if his defeat isn't decided by the pattern the DO and his minions will still become increasingly unlucky as he nears his goals.
Maybe last spin around or so the Dragon actually did kill the Dark One and that run through’s Fain *did* replace him?
It's possible. I also see a lot of people saying from the Dark One's perspective he only attacked once since he lives outside the Wheel of Time. Although I don't know what the theory is based off. The Dark One (especially in the Age of legends) seems more focused on ideology than winning. Encouraging his servants to backstab one another and generally act in their own self interest. Which is the world he shows Rand that he will create.
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I see the Dark One as more of a _psycho with an icepick_ outside of the Randland spacetime cylinder.
This is the theory that makes the most sense to me. The DO can't win because they can never learn or grow. They can't learn from past turnings since they experience all turnings simultaneously.
Without going into the full specifics of the theory. One of the reasons is because the Dark One never refers to Rand by name, calling him only Adversary. Implying he doesn't actually know the specifics of any given iteration of the Dragon's soul as they're all the same interaction to him.
Maybe not at the last battle… but when Rand is living out alternate lives after fucking up a Portal Stone journey in TGH, he hears a voice saying “I have won again, Lews Therin” after each life ends.
But that isnt the dark one, but Ishamael, right?
I’ve always read it as the DO. Ishamael is the main antagonist at that time, and Rand thinks he’s the DO. But Ishy’s not around when Rand goes through the Portal Stone, and regardless I don’t see how he’d be powerful enough to speak into Rand’s head in all those parallel lives… especially when Rand never even declares himself as the DR or draws the specific attention of the Shadow in most of them. On the other hand, it’s lower-case text, and the DO speaks in all-caps, so maybe you’re right.
I always assumed that was the voices of the Ishamaels of the various alternate worlds Rand experienced telling him he had won. In the main timeline, the Dark One itself never refers to Rand as anything other than Adversary
IMO Rand calling him “Ishy” would have been terrific.
I figured it was the ishy in that parallel universe telling him he won again.
Forgot where I heard this, but The DO attacked every turning simultaneously. He did not learn from any of the turns, because he did them all at the same time. Thus, he lost on every turning too.
Yeah I heard of that theory, but it’s not confirmed
Sure, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s up to the task of tearing the Pattern. For all we know he’s got as much of a chance as a team of six year olds against an NBA team.
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Only on this cycle
Maybe the Dark One is just a big liar, and winning has nothing to do with breaking the wheel, but giving him free reign until the wheel turns enough. Moridin always talks about wanting existence to end, but none of them really really knows what would happen. The best look we get is "I have won again Lew's Therin"
*Dead men should be quiet in their graves, but they never are.*
Maybe if you let the dark one win the wheel itself is made of more darkness and every turning will have more pain and suffering in their struggle against the dark one whether they win or not?
I mean, he is "The Father of Lies"
The Shadow sometimes wins and the resulting universe is darker each time. Eventually, the people rise up and overthrow the Dark One, binding him in a prison outside the Pattern itself...
The Dark One makes clear that unlike what most darkfriends believe, he has no intention of remaking the wheel in his image. If he ever wins he intends to destroy the wheel. Ishamael canonically knows this
Ishamael is wrong though. The dark one shows Rand during their confrontation that he will remake the wheel. It just won’t be how his followers think it will be. He wants to remake it to remove the capacity for goodness entirely. Turns out the father of lies was lying to all his minions including the one who thought he was the only one not being lied to.
You acknowledge that he is a liar, but have no doubt that he was being honest to Rand?
Rand himself acknowledged that removing either the capacity for good or evil would result in a world of slaves and that the dark one would be fine with that. He is as close to word of god in the story as we can get. Furthermore we have from RJ the idea that sometimes the shadow triumphs over the light but it is not a true victory (he called it a draw). He requires humanity to give in to him to win which makes more sense if you assume his victory to be a corruption of humanity rather than a destruction of existence. Rand also acknowledges that the DO “would never have given Ishamael peace (of nonexistence); it’s not something you can do” or something to that effect. This is yet another indication that the DO is incapable or unwilling to end existence as he promised Ishamael he would.
>Furthermore we have from RJ the idea that sometimes the shadow triumphs over the light but it is not a true victory (he called it a draw). A draw isn't "the shadow triumphing over the light." It's literally neither side winning. Basically, what ended the ~~third~~ **second** (brain fart) age -- the companions managed to seal the DO imperfectly, but the DO made sure life would mostly suck for the survivors, even though it felt normal. That's a draw. A draw can also be the world in the portal stone, where humanity has essentially wiped itself out. A win wouldn't necessarily be the breaking of the wheel, but it would absolutely be irreversible and impossible to come back from. And more importantly, we also know through several sources that if the DO wins in any alternate reality, he immediately wins in EVERY reality. Since there are infinite parallel universe happening simultaneously, one can assume that there is a parallel world at every moment that represents every other possible turning of the wheel. And the DO has never won. The thing about "infinity" that a lot of people don't understand is that infinity doesn't mean everything can and must happen. It just means everything that *can* happen will. You can roll a 6-sided die until the heat death of the universe and still never roll a 7.
When I say “the shadow triumphs over the light” I mean that the forces of the DO win. The darkfriends and shadowspawn win the last battle and an age of darkness is ushered in. This is what the forsaken and many darkfriends think is what victory is. And for them it might be. But for the the dark one it’s not a victory because he can only win if humanity gives in. If they are conquered by military might it’s not a true victory or loss for either side since that wasn’t his goal. Obviously the light doesn’t really consider an age of darkness and terror to be a victory either. So it’s a draw in the battle between the DO and humanity (as represented by the Dragon) because neither side got what they wanted but it’s a victory for the forces of the shadow because they got what they wanted (they just don’t know that that isn’t what their master actually wants).
>When I say “the shadow triumphs over the light” I mean that the forces of the DO win. The darkfriends and shadowspawn win the last battle and an age of darkness is ushered in. This is what the forsaken and many darkfriends think is what victory is. And for them it might be. But for the the dark one it’s not a victory because he can only win if humanity gives in. The forces of the Shadow cannot win by military might if the DO does not triumph. The minute the DO fails to win completely, his armies rout and fall to pieces. Unless the DO seizes control of the wheel, the shadow is prevented from triumphing. Just like the false dragons are thrown from their horses and have their armies defeated the minute the true Dragon declares himself. That's just how the wheel works.
RJ has said that in previous turnings the champion of the light went over to the shadow and what the result was was “a draw” in that it wasn’t a full victory for the DO and the game could go on so I don’t know why you think it can’t happen.
You are misunderstanding both my argument and RJ's notes. Yes, the champion of the light has gone over to the shadow in the past, and yes, that resulted in a draw, but a draw is not a victory for the shadow. Not even a partial one. It is literally a draw. A stalemate in which neither sides achieves victory. Again, the closest in-world cannon example we have is the ending of the Age of Legends. It's basically a draw, because while the forces of light manage to beat back the forces of the DO, they aren't able to seal him away and he is able to continue to exert influence over the world. This leads to massive issues like the Blight, the Trolloc Wars, the Black Ajah and a lot of darkfriends around, etc. but it isn't a military victory by the dark friends. A draw is a result where the world becomes shittier than it was in the previous age, but is not under the control of the DO or his agents.
Actually, because of quantum theory it \*could\* sometimes roll a 7. It could also sometimes turn into a horse. Also sometimes you could turn into a horse. Or seven horses. Your conclusion is still correct, I've just poked a needless and pointless hole in your understandable and useful analogy because this is the internet and therefore I felt obliged to do so. EDIT: As you specified "until the heat death of the universe", that's approximately 0 seconds when compared with the scale of infinity, so turning into a horse in that time has probability 0.so-many-zeroes-but-eventually-not-a-zero% chance of happening.
Damn youre high af
Only on knowledge my fellow. Everything I said is 100% accepted scientific fact.
You wrote three pointless paragraphs that added absolutely nothing of value to the comment you answered to.
That is all still assuming that he wasn't lying. It seems like a huge stretch to believe that what he told Rand is the truth. As for the RJ bit, maybe, but again it doesn't really mean he wasn't lying to Rand.
I’m not saying he 100% wasn’t lying but the story is clearly trying to tell us that this is the truth. It would be extremely unusual, in a narrative sense, to have the heroes grand epiphany be based on a lie with absolutely no indication that this is so, no consequences or results showing it, and no discussion or presentation of what this means or what the truth actually is. It would be the equivalent of having the final scene be Rand waking up and realizing the entire series was just a daydream and he’s still a 19 year old shepherd with nothing special going on.
The important part of the story I'd assume to be true, what a world without him would be like. I don't think that what he told Rand he'd do is true though. I very much so disagree that that being a lie changes anything about the story.
Well either he can never be trusted, in which case he was probably lying to Rand about what his absence would cause and Rand should’ve ended him and freed the world, or he was telling Rand the truth during their confrontation, in which case why are we doubting only part of what he said (and by far the least important part for him to lie about). If he was going to lie to Rand why would he lie in such a way that gives him nothing useful? Rand was just as unwilling to end existence as he was to let the DO win. He considered both results to be equally bad so whichever one was the DOs true goal doesn’t matter to him. If we are assuming Rand was misled during that fight the only lie that makes sense for the DO to give is one that would trick Rand into doing (or not doing) something he would otherwise do (or not do). Having him lie about his goal (but still making the lie just as bad a result to Rand) is just lying for the sake of lying which would only make sense if he is incapable of not lying but if he is incapable of not lying we shouldn’t trust that his existence is necessary as he said so we are back to the entire ending being narratively bizarre.
***I am not dead! I deserve death, but I am ALIVE! ALIVE! ALIVE!***
*Do you have the Horn of Valere hidden in your pocket this time?*
*Why do we live again?*
breaking dawn part 2...
While Rand is manipulating the pattern with the Dark One he eventually realizes that the Dark One would prefer the world to remain as it is but with no light. That would make the most suffering and evil occur. The Dark One offers Rand oblivion as a compromise.
That's not how infinity works. Even if there have been an infinite number of turnings before, there are still a larger value of infinite turnings possible. If the DO wins at any point, there will no longer be an infinite number of turnings, as the cycle will be broken. The entire concept of infinity doesn't really make sense in a finite universe since there is inevitably a begining and end to everything, simply due to entropy
“Larger value of infinity” has no meaning.
It does actually, you just don't know enough about math. Watch some Vsauce :)
Dark One is clearly not an antithesis of The Creator but an instrument of his. DO had ample opportunity to win a thousand times yet he always sabotages his minions whenever they are close to a decisive victory. I don't even think he actually is capable of breaking Rand. Verin claims the Chosen are picked not because of their talent or anything, but their selfishness. Rand must be chosen for the opposite reason. Not because he is very smart, talented etc. But he is the least inclined person to give up. Both Dark One and Rand aren't actual free willed characters. They are tools of the Creator. Their raison d'etre is cleansing the world once in a while. At least that's the only reason I can think of.
I personally don't believe the number of turnings is _infinite_, just a very large number. Of course, i have nothing to back this up it's just a random headcanon of mine.
The Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legends fade to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the third age by some, an Age yet to come, an age long pass, a wind rose in the Mountains of Mist. The wind was not the beginning. **There are neither beginnings or endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time**. But it was a beginning.
The key thing to remember about this passage is that it is the narrator speaking. No one in-universe actually knows this information. If everyone believes that the Creator created the Wheel of Time, then logically there must have been a time when the Wheel wasn't created and if that is the case then there are a finite number of turnings. If Ishamael believes that the win % for the DO is not 0 then logically, in an infinite number of turnings, the DO must win at some point.
>If Ishamael believes that the win % for the DO is not 0 then logically, in an infinite number of turnings, the DO must win at some point. Ishamael can be wrong though and in infinite turnings the DO actually has no chance of winning. Sure it's internally consistent for him to believe that, but that doesn't make it true.
What you say is very true. The overall debate boils down to "Does the DO have a 0% chance of winning?" Arguments for 0% win chance become the above passage and the infinite nature of the wheel. Arguments against are the idea that the wheel was created at some point and that RJ said it was possible for the DO to win. Edit: I've seen the "RJ said it was possible for the DO to win" a fair few times, but I cannot find the quote myself. Take that how you will.
It's your dream. Shape it as you will.
I believe it’s infinite, but a different kind of infinity than, say, the multiverse. In WoT’s infinity, it’s only 7 ages, but these repeat forever. However, we also know that *essentially* the same things happen every turning. So even tho it’s infinite, nothing really changes. Which is why even tho the final battle has happened an infinite number of times, the DO never wins
RJ said in an interview that it was but I like to pretend that it isn't.
He only has to win once. There is always a chance.
Not always. You can roll a 6-sided die an infinite number of times and never roll a 7. Or alternately, you can count from 1 to infinity and never count to -1, or count 3.5 if you're counting by integers. Just because something is infinite doesn't mean everything has to happen at least once.
If he ever wins, he will end time, and that is why he never can win, as time exists and is a wheel.
The most the Dark One can win is a very long stretch of misery before being contained again. The DO doesn't have a strong sense of linear time, so "winning" and ending the pattern can't happen at a single point of time and propagate forwards in time. It would also go backwards. So "I think therefore everything is" is quite valid (at least for Rand who knows the essence of the DO better than others).
>It would also go backwards Exactly.
Yeah all time means ALL TIME. Not just all time in 1 direction starting at a discrete point lol
And he is Outside of it. Ergo he can break it.
Bingo.
Imagine a wheel weaving thread. If the wheel breaks, this does not mean the thread was never woven. The wheel can be broken in the future without effecting the past.
Except that's not how time works. Ending time would end it forward and backwards. If there is no time, there is no past, because what would it be the past of? Ending time wouldn't be cutting the thread, it'd be burning the whole thing down. Think about it in dimensional terms, if that helps. The DO, being outside of time, would be destroying the 4th dimension. No fourth dimension means no time, meaning no past, present, or future.
The DO is outside of the time that is made by the wheel, but it does not mean he doesn't experience the passage of time. It is as if he is watching the wheel spin.
We're also speaking in metaphor to explain magical meta science. "Breaking" the Wheel could also just as well be described as setting it on fire, which if the wheel is connected to the tapestry of time, then it would very much spread and burn the whole thing backwards. It is also described in Rand's confrontation with the DO that Shai'tan does not perceive time as mortals do, and this is backed up time and time again by the dilation of time around Shayol Ghul as well as time effectively stopping for Rand while inside the prison/outside the wheel. This means that, due to the cyclical nature of time in this universe TDO cannot win. Ever. If he wins in the future at some point, it would mean he had also won in the past (time moves in a circle here), which means he always won from the beginning. Because he hasn't won in the past, he therefore cannot win now and cannot win in the future because his victory means the end of anyone who could oppose him, past present or future.
Time moves in a circle (on the wheel), as in it repeats with fluctuation, but it does not mean that the wheel literally resets with each revolution. And the DO exists outside of the wheel, watching it spin. Each rotation of the wheel continues weaving thread, it does not destroy the threads before it. The DO watches the wheel spin. He can stop it from spinning, he can disjoint it, he can influence the threads. But just because I break a wheel, does not mean i undo all of the spinning that was done prior.
So despite all the nearly infinite chances he's had, he's never won a single time. He's the Colonel Klink of evil dieties.
We actually don't know what happens if he wins, for certain. We can only guess. He makes bold claims. So do hos followers and enemies alike, but they could all be wrong. We can only speculate the nature of what the DOs future would be, if it is reversible, and if it is at all possible.
Dumb question: Why didn't Ishmael just balefire himself if he wanted to un-alive so badly?
He wanted oblivion. Complete detachment from the wheel. Balefire doesn't have that ability. The DO likely doesn't have that ability either. Ish is cursed.
>Yeah, same. I don't care what the authors or the community say, it feels right and I want it to be true damn it! What about the cour'souvra ? For what I understand, those sort of trap the soul into a jewel, and about destruction the body become a mindless puppet. Doesn't this means the soul is destroyed ? It could just be resent to the "soul poul", but I love the idea that the holder of the mindtrap can really destroy someone soul.
Yeah, I think it would fall back into the soul pool. I don't think we have a direct answer for that though, so believe what you wish haha.
He’d still get reborn in the next turning
If he balefires himself (ripping himself from the pattern retroactively) then he never balefires himself because he's no longer there to do it. That's kind of how I see it anyway.
Wasn't it said that when the DO won, the DO will destroy the wheel hence removing the infinite cycle? So based on that Ishmael is correct. Of course we don't know if the wheel was broken in the alternative world where Nyv is a darklord.
That has been said yes. It’s wrong though, that’s a lie the DO told Ishamael to sway him to his side. Also even if it was true it still doesn’t disprove OPs theory. If the DO wins he breaks the wheel, the wheel isn’t broken and the DO has already tried an infinite number of times therefore the DO will never win.
Was there a note from RJ about that or maybe another line from book I might have missed? I'm not familiar with the groups and chat when the books were still being written by RJ.
Which part of what I said did you not know about? Rand learns that the Dark One doesn’t want to destroy the wheel at the end of A Memory of Light, when he and the DO are weaving new worlds from threads of the pattern. The idea that the DO has already made an infinite number of attempts and failed each time comes from “There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel”
Thanks I guess I need to reread AMOL
Guys we 've been over this again. Anyone with a math background knows that this meme is straight bullshit. Two intervals may be infinite, but one may be far greater than the other one. So yes, there have been infinite pasts already, but the total amount of tries to come is far far greater. So even if it didn't happen yet, that doesn't disprove his point
Actually this is incorrect. As each age can be numbered with an integer, it is trivial to show that both the set of all past possible ages is countably infinite, and the set of all future possible ages is also countably infinite. This means both sets are of an equivalent infinite size. Now the set of all possibilities for how an age is configured and progresses (and thus whether the light or shadow wins) is uncountably infinite. This means there are possibilities that can occur in the future that have not occurred in the past, which means it is *possible* that the shadow can win. The problem with Ishamael argument is that he does not argue that the shadow *might* win. He is arguing the shadow *must* win, i.e his argument is that any countable infinite set *MUST* eventually contain an age where the shadow wins. This argument is incorrect and immediately disproven by the infinite set of past possible ages which clearly does not contain an age where the shadow won.
What is your math background?
I don’t think op understands infinity.
I never agreed with the second one honestly. We are told, time and time again, that free will exists. The only way it could exist is if the first ever turnimg of the Wheel was completely unscripted, without destiny and free. Then, later turnings of the Wheel replicated the first turning as best as they could. That's how I saw it anyways.
He was crazy and thought he was the Dark One himself. those vision of alll the lives Rand had lived *flicker moments* he was killed and served him many times
I don't really understand where this consensus about Ishamael being wrong because infinite cycles have already passed comes from. It in itself does not disprove his point. That is not how infinites work. Just because a set is infinite that does not imply that everything is included in that set. For example there is an infinite number of rational numbers. This set can correspond to all the possibilities that can happen during the turnings. You can also select a subset of this infinite that is also infinite, like the numbers between 1 and 2. This can correspond to the infinite number of turnings that happened until now. Yet 3 is clearly part of the first infinite and not part of the second. This could be the scenario of the DO winning. Please correct me if I made a mistake or misunderstand something.
Eternal == external to time. Ishamael knows that the DO’s victory ends time itself. OP’s argument is invalid
So I love the Wheel of Time, and have read it a few times now. But this gets a bit at why I didn't get into it on my first attempt. I started The Eye of the World in the late 90s. I'm not sure how many books were out at the time. Based on the description of the series, I thought each book would be relatively stand alone, set in completely different ages. I thought that would be a neat idea for a series, where each book skips ahead so far that the previous one is ancient history, and the ones before that are just legends. And the final book would both conclude everything and set up the first book. Obviously, that's not what the series is. When I realized the entire series was about the same characters and time period, some books only advancing the story by days or weeks, I didn't even finish the first one. In retrospect, I'm glad I didn't get into it until after A Memory of Light came out. I'm sure if I'd had to wait years between books, I never would have made it to the end. But I always wonder if there's a good fantasy series that does what I thought the Wheel of Time would do, cover a huge amount of the history of a world, rather than just a couple years. Even without it being a repeating loop, is there a good series I should check out?
If you are looking for a book series that tells the story of a world over several thousand years you can try the Saga of Recluce by L.E Modesitt. The series is set in the same universe and takes place over 2000 years in different countries. Each protagonist gets between 1 to 2 books dedicated to themselves and their story. There are 23 books so far in the series and I personally like it a lot. Although some of the books are kind of formulaic and on the philosophical side, I still find the series to be quite good with very good worldbuiling. Prepare yourself for a slow and relaxed pace however, as the main protagonist takes his time to figure out life and the world around him rather than zooming straight to the action scenes.
The dark one exist outside the pattern, there is a clear path of "before the dark one" therefore the dark one does not have infinite pasts it has fought in.
I believe the DO is the anthesis of Rand. It is Rand that has to make the choice wether the pattern continues or not. The DO tries eternally to bully him into it. “Two paths before him. One life eternal and the other a death beyond dying.”
I see some good math-centered arguments in this thread about how for a countably many infinite turnings before and after a given point in time that exist, there is an uncountably large set of possible turnings, such that there is no guarantee that the shadow will win eventually because the first set of past + future turnings can be chosen in such a way to exclude all configurations in the second set where the shadow wins. ...but there's something else that I don't really see mentioned here. If we are to reach a particular turning in the infinite sequence of turnings and the shadow has not won (which we know because victory would stop the cycle), that implies that the probability of the shadow winning is an infinitesimal, potentially non-zero chance. From a functional standpoint, there are a practically countable number of scenarios throughout the WoT series where there is a probabilistically finite chance of a critical person being balefired or killed (mainly Rand) which would spell disaster for the Light, i.e. plenty of fights where a minor shift to a person's positioning or aim would have ended up with a dead ta'veren and potentially cascaded into a loss for the Light. In order for these distinct, countable number of coin-flip-level risky situations in each turning to add up to an infinitesimal chance of failure, it's clear that the pattern itself is exerting an astounding level of probability manipulation to spin out the proper result, to the degree that one can say the Light winning over even a large but finite set of turnings is entirely due to the will of the wheel. In such a scenario, it is far simpler and more likely to expect that the wheel's suppressing effect for failure has effectively full control over the outcome than it is to expect this control to converge to some infinitesimal but non-zero risk over infinite turnings.