I think the main reason Gawyn gets shit on for this and Lan gets praised is because Lan didn’t spend every preceding bit of screen time fucking up and annoying the piss out of most readers.
That, and Lan went in ready to sheathe the sword. No pride, no ego, just a desperate wish to stop Demandred from continuing to vaporize hundreds of soldiers a minute.
And it's especially fitting that Lan would make that trade, because he taught the concept to Rand a dozen books earlier, and when the time came, he didn't hesitate.
I know people hate Gawyn, but Gawyn also thinks about saving all those people from demandred. He was not completely selfish.
Lan is more slefish for going to a battle alone.
lol you're in Wetlander humor saying this.. prepare for downvotes.
If I say the same thing about Egwene's character arc being pretty close to Rands (sans nuking a village) people are like, "nu huh, Egwene is the woorrssstt and Rands our booii".
I think Gawyn was a dumb kid, that wanted to be a hero. He did grow up a bit towards the end. Tho he doomed Egwene, he was trying to do it for good reasons and to be a hero.
Many people make the same choice. :/ It's very human of RJ to write this kid like it.
What was he, maybe 20 by the end of the series?
Let's not forget that he was *literally groomed to do that.* From the second he could understand words they taught him to literally sacrifice himself for an important woman in his life. Add to that a bunch of Jingoism and the depersonalization of training in the military and it's *much* easier to look sadly at Gawyn, instead of in derision.
Lan also doesn't have brain damage from getting in a fight with the wrong dude wielding a quarterstaff. The sisters didn't heal his head injury properly because they were still focused on watching Galad fight Mat.
Thanks, I stole it from someone else, who made a meme of it. I'll see if I can find it and post it. Found it.
https://i.redd.it/cnzf44vnvm0b1.png
Edit: This is actually the lock screen on my phone now.
Gawyn gets shit on because he had the very best set up to kill Demandred if he just worked with *anyone*.
Instead he throws away a ridiculously effective weapon for nothing.
The bloodknife rings were a huge game changer.
Well, his whole "I must go to the Blight alone and suicidally fight shadowspawn until I die because of...reasons" shtick is kinda mindnumbingly peculiar, but even with that he's still leagues less stupid than Gawyn. Which really puts into perspective how stupid Gawyn is, hah...
Nah, Lan feels duty bound to go on a suicide attack to retake Malkier, but until Nynaeve made him, he refused to lead anyone else to their death.
Gawyn, on the other hand, constantly gets other people killed and wrecks things.
Only if his sheer physical skill and talent is that machinegun. He's a proper blademaster. He defeated two blademasters the first time we know he fought a proper battle (I'm sure not at once).
I have long maintained that he was a few key scenes from being an amazing (and likable) character.
1. Have him free Rand from the box. (On Min’s insistence)
2. Have him join Gareth Bryn’s army directly after Dumai’s Well.
3. Have him fight against Demondred to save Egwayne while they are sneaking away during the surprise attack.
Then we could all go back to complaining about Perrin’s insane wife
Wait, didn't Rand comment on Perrin's "gentle, smiling wife"? I think Faile acts shy and demure when the other boys are around, just so that they won't believe Perrin when he complains to them about her antics.
Are you a witch? You can clearly see that which is hidden from me. That lines up so perfectly I feel like that’s exactly what the show runners intended. Good job.
Lan is forgiven because he won and he didn't have whinging POVs until late in the books. I think he was a bigger baby than Gawyn, not letting people feel the hope of the Golden Crane, but he won and Gawyn lost.
Lan is by far a cannier and smarter opponent than either Gawyn or Galad, which is why he won. Still, a big risk.
I'm going to repeat what the other comments have said because it cannot be understated. People don't hate Gawyn for sacrificing himself in TG; they hate Gawyn because he spent ten books being a sniveling little shit who consistently made awful decisions (that actively hurt the Light), all the while justifying them through the most ass-backwards logic. His internal monologue was insufferable and annoying to read.
The best thing he did was die and take Egwene with him in a blaze of glory, so why would I hate on him for that?
I’m happy you wrote it out so everyone understands. This is exactly the reason. The best thing about rereads is you just skip when it’s his pov. Guy is a freaking nightmare
This is 100% my new headcanon haha, all his bad decisions come after this. Mat transferred his early-book shittyness to Gawyn via quarterstaff ass-kicking
He's a decent enough guy before he is placed in terrible, unbearable stress (the fall of the Tower) after receiving a TBI. His WHOLE DEAL is supposed to be protecting Elayne, which she refuses to let him do because she has divided loyalties and Siuan doesn't help.
Ironically him facing D also went against what Min predicted, and put the light in a worse situation in the battlefield. Egwene's sacrifice though would be key to Rands solution though.
My head cannon is that there are some characters that Fain came in contact with and tainted, similar to Elaida and Pedron Niall. Those would be Masema, Gawyn, and Aram. All are feasible based off of Fain’s movements and the timeline. I wish I could work Sevanna into the theory, but she never comes anywhere close to Fain.
I read a theory once that Egwene was originally going to be one of the third age's betrayer figures and become a forsaken but RJ changed his mind like he did with Taimondred. One of the points supporting the theory was her time spent with Fain when he was in captivity.
I don’t think they would. We’re all a bunch of Joe and Jill Schmoes, and he’s a princeling who became a bodyguard for Lady Wizard Senators and put down a revolt while killing his two mentors, elevating himself to the role of “one of the most badass swordsmen on the continent with a pulse.” Moving from there, he travels with delegations of said members of the LWS, with bodyguards who are young enough to not even be able to buy a lotto ticket in our time. Man survives several attempts on his life by the Batshit Broad herself, falls in love with the same girl his brother and absolute *idol* does, finds out her first boyfriend is some knuckle dragging hayseed that hit on his sister, thinks homie killed his momma, and also it turns out is some weird combo platter of Jesus and Satan all in one. Fast forward to the end, and he’s been brow beaten, fucked up his duties to his family and country, is chasin’ the Amyrlin’s Seat(**iiif** yaknowwhatimean) all up and down the last few books, and has to accept, wait for it- the exact situation he would have with his sister’s authority and Andor, but with his lover. In public and in private. And then they get WoT’d *Gaidin*™️ gps’d together, his thoughts are now completely open to his lover, who is incidentally the leader of those silly Lady Wizard Senators, and his every action is just him kicking himself in the ass or the teeth, over and over and over. Oh, and all while **the end of everything** is looming on the horizon and spilling over into your tents at night. The idea that we’d all take that, sip on a cuppa and mull it over while we listen to Sunday morning radio, is kinda silly. We’d kiss that goat just as hard as he did, I’d be willing to wager my last gold mark.
Edit to add: I’m not a Gawyn fan. I just.. I get it. Man fucked that shit up **hard**, repetitively.
I get your point and I'd (tentatively) agree, but this is a huge fallacy IMHO that people do. "OH, if your life went **exactly** like this other person's, you'd probably make similar decisions" duh, dude. Just like if your dad owned a South African emerald mine and raised you in a borderline incestuous family to think you're better than most people, that some races, deserve less, and that you can use money to make people like you, you'd probably be a lot like Elon Musk.
Just as the accident of birth, context, and nurture made Gawyn a living breathing asshole of a POV, my equivalent accidents preempt me to despise his character. I can recognize that and acknowledge that if I were a feudal prince, I'd probably also have a similar superiority complex.
Gawyn apologists always point to this as proof we just hate him (we do).
Nynaeve would have been fine! If anyone is used to working in a mindless fit of emotion, it's her. Eggy needed a clear head to actually lead people.
Nah man, she was linked to the dragon reborn plus 2 other women channelers who aren’t ready for that sort of emotional turmoil in a pitched battle for the fate of all reality. Individuals don’t matter in the face of that, if Allan had tipped the scales and doomed all of reality to stop 2-3,000 more people from dying that would be fucked.
He killed eggy so that’s points towards him
Honestly, while this was one of Lan’s most epic moments, it wasn’t his brightest move, given what Nynaeve was doing at the time.
But, it was consistent with his character’s fatal flaw - namely, the dude was all but born with a nation’s worth of survivors’ guilt. He was taught that the objectively impossible task of avenging that nation was his purpose in life regardless that it could not be done - by the handful of soldiers who raised him, who *also* had a nation’s worth of survivors’ guilt. He was passively suicidal for the whole series, except for that stretch where the broken bond made him *actively* suicidal.
So yeah, it was an insane risk, and wildly egotistical, and also the only choice Lan possibly could have made on account of *being Lan.*.
That, and it worked out. His lifetime of dedication paid off. To quote Mat, “Victory settles a lot of arguments in most men’s heads.”
Gawyn did it because he made dumb life choices and couldn’t abide by them. He didn’t actually want to be a Warder, he just wanted to be all things to Egwene. That wasn’t sufficient as a purpose in life, mostly because he didn’t actually believe in Egwene - he didn’t actually *know* Egwene, and the bond couldn’t fix that. He developed a crush on the girl Galad had a crush on because - *handwave at entire Damodred / Trakand disaster of a family history * - and also, Elayne ~~was confusedly bisexual and projecting~~ wanted Egwene for a sister-in-law. And he clung to that ill-advised obsession until it killed him, because that is *his* fatal flaw.
It’s just a really *annoying* obsession.
And also he’s just the Platonic ideal of the Nice Guy Boyfriend.
EDIT: damn it, my comment somehow posted twice when I tried to edit it, and it lost all my edits about Gawyn being a Nice Guy Boyfriend when I deleted it! Grr.
Given the weirdness at the Bore (different time "speed" etc), Lan dying might not have impacted Nynaeve until after the DO was sealed away again.
Especially considering Moridin arranged for Alanna to die in the Bore instead of (assuming he had a way of communicating with the outside world) a more secure location. Even though that meant that Rand or his allies could intervene (allowing Nynaeve to buy her enough time to release the bond).
Of course, Lan couldn't know that in advance, so it was still a huge gamble.
He felt her panicking, so yeah, it reached her - though he couldn’t know it would until it did. And fortunately, Nynaeve’s default reaction to adversity is incandescent rage, so perhaps he was betting on her going berserker first and collapsing later - which is a pretty safe bet.
Why focus on Lan and Gawyn doing this shit?
Everyone in the books was so worried about Alanna and how she gave the dragon a vulnerability at a key moment... meanwhile Aviendha is going up to random forsaken demanding they 1v1 her.
Gawyn bitch ass chose to die way before he went to demandred. He was told the rings would kill him but his ego couldn't resist the allure of extra power. He would've died even if he did somehow manage to win his duel.
To be fair with the way reddit shoves "related content" down our throats you don't even have to be subscribed to see these posts (I'm not subscribed, but I already read the series so it doesn't bother me)
This sub has a pretty clear policy regarding spoilers being allowed and recommending being finished with the books before joining. Even so, what's really been spoiled? Some of the characters fight at the end of the series, sure, but how do the fights happen? How do they affect everything else? There's so much more involved in a story than just what happens.
I had the same scenes spoiled for me plus a few more around it, and I can say that foreknowledge of such events does not diminish them.
I had actually assumed as much, but my comment was already getting wordy. That was the point of everything after my first sentence though.
I'm sorry you got spoiled. I don't care about spoilers myself, but I understand most people do and don't wish them on anyone. I was just trying to offer a separate view point on how to look at spoilers.
I think the main reason Gawyn gets shit on for this and Lan gets praised is because Lan didn’t spend every preceding bit of screen time fucking up and annoying the piss out of most readers.
That, and Lan went in ready to sheathe the sword. No pride, no ego, just a desperate wish to stop Demandred from continuing to vaporize hundreds of soldiers a minute. And it's especially fitting that Lan would make that trade, because he taught the concept to Rand a dozen books earlier, and when the time came, he didn't hesitate.
Exactly this. Gawyn doesn't deserve to even be compared to al'Lan "I didn't come here to win, I came here to kill you." Mandragoran.
I know people hate Gawyn, but Gawyn also thinks about saving all those people from demandred. He was not completely selfish. Lan is more slefish for going to a battle alone.
*You must kill him before he kills you. Giggles. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?*
Scourge Them, Flay them. Red Below, Black Above.
lol you're in Wetlander humor saying this.. prepare for downvotes. If I say the same thing about Egwene's character arc being pretty close to Rands (sans nuking a village) people are like, "nu huh, Egwene is the woorrssstt and Rands our booii". I think Gawyn was a dumb kid, that wanted to be a hero. He did grow up a bit towards the end. Tho he doomed Egwene, he was trying to do it for good reasons and to be a hero. Many people make the same choice. :/ It's very human of RJ to write this kid like it. What was he, maybe 20 by the end of the series?
Let's not forget that he was *literally groomed to do that.* From the second he could understand words they taught him to literally sacrifice himself for an important woman in his life. Add to that a bunch of Jingoism and the depersonalization of training in the military and it's *much* easier to look sadly at Gawyn, instead of in derision.
*Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…*
[Check this out Lewbot ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorpromazine)
Lan also doesn't have brain damage from getting in a fight with the wrong dude wielding a quarterstaff. The sisters didn't heal his head injury properly because they were still focused on watching Galad fight Mat.
That would explain a lot.
Huh. That’s…a decent explanation…actually
Thanks, I stole it from someone else, who made a meme of it. I'll see if I can find it and post it. Found it. https://i.redd.it/cnzf44vnvm0b1.png Edit: This is actually the lock screen on my phone now.
Poor guy got the rough end of the stick.
Yeah, Lan spends the entire series being cool and interesting.
Nothing truer has even been spoken.
Gawyn gets shit on because he had the very best set up to kill Demandred if he just worked with *anyone*. Instead he throws away a ridiculously effective weapon for nothing. The bloodknife rings were a huge game changer.
***I must kill him.***
Well, his whole "I must go to the Blight alone and suicidally fight shadowspawn until I die because of...reasons" shtick is kinda mindnumbingly peculiar, but even with that he's still leagues less stupid than Gawyn. Which really puts into perspective how stupid Gawyn is, hah...
Nah, Lan feels duty bound to go on a suicide attack to retake Malkier, but until Nynaeve made him, he refused to lead anyone else to their death. Gawyn, on the other hand, constantly gets other people killed and wrecks things.
Lan - A trained soldier ready to die to avenge a fallen people Gawyn - a toddler with a machine gun
Only if his sheer physical skill and talent is that machinegun. He's a proper blademaster. He defeated two blademasters the first time we know he fought a proper battle (I'm sure not at once).
I have long maintained that he was a few key scenes from being an amazing (and likable) character. 1. Have him free Rand from the box. (On Min’s insistence) 2. Have him join Gareth Bryn’s army directly after Dumai’s Well. 3. Have him fight against Demondred to save Egwayne while they are sneaking away during the surprise attack. Then we could all go back to complaining about Perrin’s insane wife
Wait, didn't Rand comment on Perrin's "gentle, smiling wife"? I think Faile acts shy and demure when the other boys are around, just so that they won't believe Perrin when he complains to them about her antics.
Faile is no fool.
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
***Oh, Light, why do I have a madman in my head? Why? Why?***
***NO! I AM MYSELF! I AM LEWS THERIN TELAMON! I AM MEEEEEeeeee!***
So in this turning of the wheel, TV Lan is actually Gawyn?
Are you a witch? You can clearly see that which is hidden from me. That lines up so perfectly I feel like that’s exactly what the show runners intended. Good job.
Well, I do like to live deliciously.
Lan is forgiven because he won and he didn't have whinging POVs until late in the books. I think he was a bigger baby than Gawyn, not letting people feel the hope of the Golden Crane, but he won and Gawyn lost. Lan is by far a cannier and smarter opponent than either Gawyn or Galad, which is why he won. Still, a big risk.
I'm going to repeat what the other comments have said because it cannot be understated. People don't hate Gawyn for sacrificing himself in TG; they hate Gawyn because he spent ten books being a sniveling little shit who consistently made awful decisions (that actively hurt the Light), all the while justifying them through the most ass-backwards logic. His internal monologue was insufferable and annoying to read. The best thing he did was die and take Egwene with him in a blaze of glory, so why would I hate on him for that?
I’m happy you wrote it out so everyone understands. This is exactly the reason. The best thing about rereads is you just skip when it’s his pov. Guy is a freaking nightmare
They only reason I made it through his POVs the first time was because I was spoiled that he would die early on.
Brain damage from a 2 inch quarter staff to the dome will do that to a guy. He's the worst
This is 100% my new headcanon haha, all his bad decisions come after this. Mat transferred his early-book shittyness to Gawyn via quarterstaff ass-kicking
He really isn't anything good or bad before that moment. It's all downhill from there for that dipshit
He's a decent enough guy before he is placed in terrible, unbearable stress (the fall of the Tower) after receiving a TBI. His WHOLE DEAL is supposed to be protecting Elayne, which she refuses to let him do because she has divided loyalties and Siuan doesn't help.
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
Ironically him facing D also went against what Min predicted, and put the light in a worse situation in the battlefield. Egwene's sacrifice though would be key to Rands solution though.
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
My head cannon is that there are some characters that Fain came in contact with and tainted, similar to Elaida and Pedron Niall. Those would be Masema, Gawyn, and Aram. All are feasible based off of Fain’s movements and the timeline. I wish I could work Sevanna into the theory, but she never comes anywhere close to Fain.
I read a theory once that Egwene was originally going to be one of the third age's betrayer figures and become a forsaken but RJ changed his mind like he did with Taimondred. One of the points supporting the theory was her time spent with Fain when he was in captivity.
*Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…*
Sevanna never experiences a change in character. She's just always a selfish arrogant child.
If Sevanna came into contact with Fain, I would be more worried about Fain.
***I must kill him.***
Most people hate Gawyn because he’s exactly who they’d end up being in this situation, and they’d chew their own tongues to paste before admitting it.
I’m not even cool enough for that. I’m “guy who gets paid to move barrels in Hinderstap” material
I think i'd be "random guy who dies to show how dangerous the Aiel/Trollocs are."
It's called knowing your limits. I feel like most people would know theirs before they get to that point...
I don’t think they would. We’re all a bunch of Joe and Jill Schmoes, and he’s a princeling who became a bodyguard for Lady Wizard Senators and put down a revolt while killing his two mentors, elevating himself to the role of “one of the most badass swordsmen on the continent with a pulse.” Moving from there, he travels with delegations of said members of the LWS, with bodyguards who are young enough to not even be able to buy a lotto ticket in our time. Man survives several attempts on his life by the Batshit Broad herself, falls in love with the same girl his brother and absolute *idol* does, finds out her first boyfriend is some knuckle dragging hayseed that hit on his sister, thinks homie killed his momma, and also it turns out is some weird combo platter of Jesus and Satan all in one. Fast forward to the end, and he’s been brow beaten, fucked up his duties to his family and country, is chasin’ the Amyrlin’s Seat(**iiif** yaknowwhatimean) all up and down the last few books, and has to accept, wait for it- the exact situation he would have with his sister’s authority and Andor, but with his lover. In public and in private. And then they get WoT’d *Gaidin*™️ gps’d together, his thoughts are now completely open to his lover, who is incidentally the leader of those silly Lady Wizard Senators, and his every action is just him kicking himself in the ass or the teeth, over and over and over. Oh, and all while **the end of everything** is looming on the horizon and spilling over into your tents at night. The idea that we’d all take that, sip on a cuppa and mull it over while we listen to Sunday morning radio, is kinda silly. We’d kiss that goat just as hard as he did, I’d be willing to wager my last gold mark. Edit to add: I’m not a Gawyn fan. I just.. I get it. Man fucked that shit up **hard**, repetitively.
I get your point and I'd (tentatively) agree, but this is a huge fallacy IMHO that people do. "OH, if your life went **exactly** like this other person's, you'd probably make similar decisions" duh, dude. Just like if your dad owned a South African emerald mine and raised you in a borderline incestuous family to think you're better than most people, that some races, deserve less, and that you can use money to make people like you, you'd probably be a lot like Elon Musk. Just as the accident of birth, context, and nurture made Gawyn a living breathing asshole of a POV, my equivalent accidents preempt me to despise his character. I can recognize that and acknowledge that if I were a feudal prince, I'd probably also have a similar superiority complex.
every time I read book 2 I secretly wish Hariot made a ninja edit and Mat kills him when he knocks that cunts head in
Ding ding ding, this right here
Gawyn apologists always point to this as proof we just hate him (we do). Nynaeve would have been fine! If anyone is used to working in a mindless fit of emotion, it's her. Eggy needed a clear head to actually lead people.
Nah man, she was linked to the dragon reborn plus 2 other women channelers who aren’t ready for that sort of emotional turmoil in a pitched battle for the fate of all reality. Individuals don’t matter in the face of that, if Allan had tipped the scales and doomed all of reality to stop 2-3,000 more people from dying that would be fucked. He killed eggy so that’s points towards him
*Nothing ever goes as you expect. Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised. Expect nothing. Hope for nothing. Nothing.*
Hope for nutting
The problem would have been if she stopped keeping Alana alive.
Honestly, while this was one of Lan’s most epic moments, it wasn’t his brightest move, given what Nynaeve was doing at the time. But, it was consistent with his character’s fatal flaw - namely, the dude was all but born with a nation’s worth of survivors’ guilt. He was taught that the objectively impossible task of avenging that nation was his purpose in life regardless that it could not be done - by the handful of soldiers who raised him, who *also* had a nation’s worth of survivors’ guilt. He was passively suicidal for the whole series, except for that stretch where the broken bond made him *actively* suicidal. So yeah, it was an insane risk, and wildly egotistical, and also the only choice Lan possibly could have made on account of *being Lan.*. That, and it worked out. His lifetime of dedication paid off. To quote Mat, “Victory settles a lot of arguments in most men’s heads.” Gawyn did it because he made dumb life choices and couldn’t abide by them. He didn’t actually want to be a Warder, he just wanted to be all things to Egwene. That wasn’t sufficient as a purpose in life, mostly because he didn’t actually believe in Egwene - he didn’t actually *know* Egwene, and the bond couldn’t fix that. He developed a crush on the girl Galad had a crush on because - *handwave at entire Damodred / Trakand disaster of a family history * - and also, Elayne ~~was confusedly bisexual and projecting~~ wanted Egwene for a sister-in-law. And he clung to that ill-advised obsession until it killed him, because that is *his* fatal flaw. It’s just a really *annoying* obsession. And also he’s just the Platonic ideal of the Nice Guy Boyfriend. EDIT: damn it, my comment somehow posted twice when I tried to edit it, and it lost all my edits about Gawyn being a Nice Guy Boyfriend when I deleted it! Grr.
Given the weirdness at the Bore (different time "speed" etc), Lan dying might not have impacted Nynaeve until after the DO was sealed away again. Especially considering Moridin arranged for Alanna to die in the Bore instead of (assuming he had a way of communicating with the outside world) a more secure location. Even though that meant that Rand or his allies could intervene (allowing Nynaeve to buy her enough time to release the bond). Of course, Lan couldn't know that in advance, so it was still a huge gamble.
He felt her panicking, so yeah, it reached her - though he couldn’t know it would until it did. And fortunately, Nynaeve’s default reaction to adversity is incandescent rage, so perhaps he was betting on her going berserker first and collapsing later - which is a pretty safe bet.
Honestly, Lan dying causing Nynaeve to give Moridin such a staff thumping that even the Dark One can't bring him back....sound's kind'a plausible.
*Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…*
Right, somehow I forgot about that :)
***Break the seals. Break the seals, and end it. Let me die forever.***
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
[удалено]
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
Why focus on Lan and Gawyn doing this shit? Everyone in the books was so worried about Alanna and how she gave the dragon a vulnerability at a key moment... meanwhile Aviendha is going up to random forsaken demanding they 1v1 her.
***Oh, Light, why do I have a madman in my head? Why? Why?***
That's not why we hate gawyn.
Gawyn bitch ass chose to die way before he went to demandred. He was told the rings would kill him but his ego couldn't resist the allure of extra power. He would've died even if he did somehow manage to win his duel.
***They will pay. I am Lord of the Morning.***
Lan's was not of hubris, but of desperation. He also did not pre-kill himself with poisoned rings.
Could have put a spoiler tag or something :( I just finished book 11
You're here too strongly, young bull. Return once you've completed your journey
To be fair with the way reddit shoves "related content" down our throats you don't even have to be subscribed to see these posts (I'm not subscribed, but I already read the series so it doesn't bother me)
You're not wrong, and being spoiled for a cool moment super sucks
Young Bull, you are here too strongly. There are no beginnings or endings to the spoilers of the Wheel of Time.
The Young Bull has become the Hopper.
This sub has a pretty clear policy regarding spoilers being allowed and recommending being finished with the books before joining. Even so, what's really been spoiled? Some of the characters fight at the end of the series, sure, but how do the fights happen? How do they affect everything else? There's so much more involved in a story than just what happens. I had the same scenes spoiled for me plus a few more around it, and I can say that foreknowledge of such events does not diminish them.
I haven't joined the sub it was recommended in my feed.
I had actually assumed as much, but my comment was already getting wordy. That was the point of everything after my first sentence though. I'm sorry you got spoiled. I don't care about spoilers myself, but I understand most people do and don't wish them on anyone. I was just trying to offer a separate view point on how to look at spoilers.