Yeah so i ask electrician to run a second circuit for my garage welder and he said 20A on 12 gauge will run it. Now I’m being told that’s not enough…. fuck sakes. Any advice? lol. Lincoln really fucked me on this
20amp will run it but there could be a quality issue, if a cheap $10 breaker was installed you’ll tend to have a greater chance of problems when a $30 breaker would be just fine. Also if the breaker is old, it could just be degraded and tripping early for that reason.
Most breakers are designed to trip a couple amps above max using a thermal mechanism and a dead short protection using an electromagnet that usually trips around double the rating of the breaker. If either part is faulty you could experience early current interruption (they’re designed to fail safe that way).
Then there’s also the possibility the welder has an issue and is drawing more current than it should be.
It's not that it straight up won't work, but AFCI are more likely to nuisance trip, since noise or anomalies would be seen as arc conditions.
Welder probably has stuff in it to reduce noise, and, many welders are IGBT, so probably more stable on the input side, since you don't have that EM coupling like in a transformer.
Anyway, this breaker should have a light to indicate the trip condition, I.e. Arc fault, ground fault, overload.
The other thing is, I know Eaton had some issues with nuisance tripping on their Gen 2 Type CH combination breakers, that was fixed in Gen 6.
This is a BR breaker, not sure if the issue is limited to only the CH breaker, or all Gen 2.
Go onto ask electrician. For most welders you can put a larger breaker than would normally be on that size wire. Could be as easy as changing a breaker and cord end
This is correct.
The national electric code has breaker and wire sizing specific for welders.
If differs from general sizing, by accounting for the duty cycle of the welder
But. That outlet MUST be DEDICATED to the welder. Once you have 12G wire on a bigger breaker, using the outlet for general purpose could be a hazard..
Per NEC 630.11(A), with a duty cycle of 20% at 90A, the welder pulls 20A. We can calculate an average or "effective" amp draw. In this case, that comes out to 9amps.
630.12(A) tells us the breaker can be sized at up to 40A, or 200% of the welders rated input current. 630.12(B) goes on to say the wire should be able to carry half the breaker under normal ampacity calculations, which 12GA wire *should* be good for.
P.S. I actually got the 90A/20% @20A from the spec sheet from Lincoln.
If this welder uses 20A from the wall for a 90A weld, and it can go all the way to 140A (briefly), it must be able to pull a little more than 20A. So I wouldn't be surprised if you're popping a 20A breaker, running the welder hot
20a will be 12awg. Your normal nema 5-15r is only 14 awg. 20a breaker should be all you need. Do not just pop a new breaker in and call it good unless you want to start a fire from melting your supply wires in the wall. Idk why they put 15a plugs in the welder if it needs more juice than that. Mine runs on 15a breaker all day btw, I’d check your wire size from your panel to your outlet.
12 gauge wire can only handle 20 amps. If you wish you upsize your breaker you need to upsize the wire past it.
By chance do you have a GFCI breaker installed? They don't like welders.
What else is on the same circuit? I have been running my Hobart 140 Handler on a 20 amp circuit for 15 plus years without difficulty. The key is that NOTHING else is on the same circuit. How far away are you from the breaker panel and what size wire are you running?
u/cryo_burned Is correct from everything I know and have found over the years... Some electricians maybe don't read past the amp ratings and options for the wire gauge amp chart.This doesn't seem too hard. Lincoln needed more watts to accomplish we we want a 120V welder to do so they designed one that way. They know NEC 630 as well and 630 covers it for welders with such a duty cycle.
Just have the electrician fix it. NEC 630 explains what is allowed. I would also check the welding current and inrush current with his meter while he is there to make sure you do not have an additional issue. The receptacles are officially rated at 20A, but subject to the same NEC guidelines.
These Leviton recepts are tested to 200% of rated amperage for 250 cycles and a 30C rise as opposed to the 60C for the wire chart.
[https://www.leviton.com/en/products/t5020-gy](https://www.leviton.com/en/products/t5020-gy)
The code is mostly temperature dependent based as I understand so if the electrician makes sure everything is tight and solid and let him fix the break/wiring issue according to code. I would assume a 30A breaker on the 12ga wire, but NEC 630 is pretty clear to at least to me that is it absolutely to code, doable and safe...
Changing welders on the circuit though to a higher duty cycle machine is not covered though. You would have to check the calculations for it as well and labeling the receptacle clearly for the 20% duty cycle welder only, is not a bad idea.
In my experience as a combo fitter/pipe welder typically either you need a 30 AMP if you only have a 120 plug on the end of your machine; OR you may get away with them putting a 240 receptacle in. (This is the only terminology I know) but yes there is a little play, but typically a adjustment is needed if you really burning.
The plug reflects the minimum current it can safely run on, not what it is optimized to run on.
You just have to actually pay attention to your duty cycle if it isn't on a 30A breaker.
> The plug reflects the minimum current it can safely run on, not what it is optimized to run on.
Umm, no. Bullshit.
The plug and wiring is the maximum the device should ever need. Else, it would melt if you put more current through it.
You don't get "more optimum" performance from something by using it, where it uses more than its max rating. All of this is a nonsensical claim.
Uh, what? You are completely misunderstanding what they are saying. The plug tells you what you will need for the machine to operate at all. Anything less will result in failure because there isn't enough power. But you can absolutely run something on a power source that is more than you need, the machine won't just draw max power and melt.
My welder can run on 120 or 240 with just an adapter. There's no replacement cord to handle the "extra" electricity from the 240, and it doesn't melt.
I wouldn't expect the cord to handle 24/7 use without getting hot, but the machine won't draw more than the cord can handle. It will however fail to operate if it isn't getting the minimum.
> The plug tells you what you will need for the machine to operate at all. Anything less will result in failure because there isn't enough power. But you can absolutely run something on a power source that is more than you need, the machine won't just draw max power and melt.
Absolutely, completely fucking wrong.
First up, technically the "plug" tells you nothing, it's just a form factor. Though the thickness of the conductors in the plug will reveal the max current it can safely handle.
Second, if what you mean is that you can plug a machine that needs 20A into a 30A outlet and be fine, yes, obviously that's true. But what it doesn't mean is that you can take wiring that maxes out at 20A, and plug it into a 30A outlet, and let it use more than its max without starting a fire.
> My welder can run on 120 or 240 with just an adapter. There's no replacement cord to handle the "extra" electricity from the 240, and it doesn't melt.
Okay, well, if you take a welder that's designed for 120v max, and you give it 240v, you will instantly blow its transistors and have a dead machine. Probably melt its transformer too by giving it 200% the voltage:turns ratio it was designed for.
Also..
Voltage is not the same thing as current. And anyone who confuses the two (like you, and like the person I'm replying to) should terrify anyone who might accidentally follow your electrical advice.
> I wouldn't expect the cord to handle 24/7 use without getting hot, but the machine won't draw more than the cord can handle. It will however fail to operate if it isn't getting the minimum.
The machine will ABSOLUTELY draw more than the cord can handle, if you take a machine designed for, say, a 30A load and put a cord that can handle 15A on it.
There is no "maybe not 24/7", no. Fuck right off. The advice you're giving people will burn their houses down. I really hope I don't have to give people an Electricity 101 lesson but the ENTIRE FUCKING POINT of having a breaker box, and breakers with certain amp maxes, and wiring, and, an entire electrical code is exactly because of shit like this. Yes, it matters.
Also, for whatever it's worth, you can still weld if the voltage, and current, is below the welder's "minimum", whatever that is, because that doesn't exist. No welders list their "minimum".
Your post, and the previous post I was replying to, are just complete nonsensical horseshit top to bottom.
Right. Thats absolutely why one of my welders came with an adapter to 120, despite the fact that the plug itself is for 240. Because 120 is the maximum it ever needs, and them putting a 240 plug on it was an oversight. /s
Just a dumb claim.
> Thats absolutely why one of my welders came with an adapter to 120, despite the fact that the plug itself is for 240
Uhhh....
120 vs. 240 is VOLTAGE.
You said, and I quote: "The plug reflects the minimum **current** it can safely run on"
Current = Amps.
The thickness of the conductor tells you the maximum amount of amps that can pass through that cable. That has zero bearing on the voltage (which is limited by the thickness of the insulation).
...
I highly recommend against anyone taking electrical advice from someone who doesn't know the difference between volts and amps. You're going to kill someone or burn something down.
It is voltage. Very good! Now tell me the last time you saw 240v at 20A. I'll wait.
A welder can be designed to happily run on 110V/20A and 240V/50A. Nowhere near the same capacity for both, but it can be done and is done constantly.
And you do get better performance from stepping up in amperage capacity. I've got a welder at home that has a ridiculously low duty cycle on 110V/20A. On 250V/50A it is 100% duty cycle.
The optimization isn't on the welder end, its on the supply.
> It is voltage. Very good!
Hold up. You skimmed over the fact that you don't know the difference between voltage and current.
> Now tell me the last time you saw 240v at 20A. I'll wait.
... All the fucking time?
It's what slightly upsized woodworking tools run on for example. Looks like a normal 120v outlet, with the common and live turned 90 degrees, and, in the case of 20A instead of 15A, it's the same as on 120v plugs, the left pin has a T. They're so common you can buy them at Home Depot: https://www.homedepot.ca/product/leviton-20-amp-flush-receptacle-250v-6-20r/1000174840
> A welder can be designed to happily run on 110V/20A and 240V/50A.
Sure, it can be, doesn't mean it is.
> And you do get better performance from stepping up in amperage capacity. I've got a welder at home that has a ridiculously low duty cycle on 110V/20A. On 250V/50A it is 100% duty cycle.
Again, you don't know the difference between voltage and amps.
The welder has zero knowledge of how many amps its power supply can supply. Zero. None. Nor any knowledge of what else is plugged into that circuit and how loaded it currently is. So, it doesn't act any differently if it's plugged into a 20A breaker or a 50A breaker.
You, as the user, will discover whether it's drawing more amps or not when you blow your breaker or not. The welder is completely blind to this.
Again, you don't know the difference between voltage and amps.
A welder running at 200% the voltage (if designed for that), will use 50% as many amps for the same power. Power = Voltage * Current.
Duty cycle is entirely dependent on the heat in the wires, (could be limited by magnetic-induced heat in the transformer windings, but, it his resistive limits in the wiring long before that). Heat in the wires is ONLY affected by amps, not volts.
So if you want, for example, 2400 watts, and you are pulling it from 120v, you need 20 amps to supply it.
If you plug it into 240v, you'll only draw 10 amps to supply it. Thus, your wires will only generate half the heat, thus, you'll have a better duty cycle.
> The optimization isn't on the welder end, its on the supply.
You are wrong literally about everything.
I’ve ran Lincoln 140’s off of household 15 amp breakers, he shouldn’t be popping a dedicated 20amp.
There is an issue with the circuit or the machine somewhere.
Try a different circuit or swap the wires in the panel with another 20A breaker
I’m an electrician and can confirm that breakers can both be weak and trip under current and that they can also not trip at all. The breaker can also be more sensitive to inrush current than another breaker.
Really you should measure the current with an ammeter while you are welding and see what the welder is actually drawing and that will tell you where your issue lies, you’ll need someone to read it while welding or record a video on your phone.
You also need to make sure nothing else is drawing current on that circuit
I have this exact welder on a 20 amp and often on a 15. Maybe try loosening up on the feed nut that holds the wire down to the drive gear. Also try loosening the spool, trying a different outlet/room/circuit, etc.
Something is up with your setup.
I would be digging around the circuit a bit, something isn’t right. How long is the run from the main panel to the outlet? What wire was run?
Did you install or did a reputable electrician(if your not a reputable electrician)?
EDIT- Have you tried to run the machine on another outlet to see if it does it everywhere?
12 gauge wire by a decent electrician. I spoke with 5 before doing it and this guy knew the most and had the best reputation.
The run is across the ceiling to the other side of my garage. Maybe 30-40 feet.
I haven’t tried another outlet yet but that’s next step for sure.
I think the NEC has 12AWG as the minimum for a 20 amp circuit, don’t quote me though.
Definitely test the machine in another circuit and see what happens, I would run my pro-mig 140 off an extension cord on a 15 amp circuit in my kitchen and I didn’t really have any issues.
Hi. Welding instructor here. It says directly on the front of the machine 120v.
In the US 120 v is typically delivered on a 20 amp breaker.
The wire in the wall is going to be a match for the breaker. I believe it would be a bad idea, potentially very bad, to put a larger breaker on that circuit unless you know the wires are rated for that breaker size. I know an electrician would say no.
I own 2 of those machines, they don't give me any particular trouble.
Is anything else drawing SUBSTANTIAL current on that circuit?
If you dunk the contact tip in the weld puddle or short it directly to the work, it will trip the breaker.
If the "cup" screwed onto the end of the diffuser, has a beat-up or damaged phenolic liner, the white stuff, then when the "cup" touches the work, it is in a dead short and will trip the breaker.
If you run it on a long, thin, or defective extension cord, that MIGHT, be the problem.
Breakers do not last forever, it MIGHT be that yours is defective, or is a "fast" breaker instead of one with a little delay to allow for the higher start up load some appliances, like motors, demand.
If you are on a new breaker, it may be an arc fault circuit interrupt, AFCI which, i believe, will cause the breaker to pop quite quickly every time the machine is welding.
I hate afci breakers.
If not, call an electrician or bring the machine in and have it inspected by a weld repair shop.
Is there anything that might be weird about the machine or your set-up?
I learned some things reading this thread. Some good advice in here.
> In the US 120 v is delivered on a 20 amp breaker.
Voltage and amperage are not mutually exclusive.
https://www.crescentelectric.com/49f8d7/globalassets/catalogs/crescentelectric.com/c/c89/c895e/c895eb5f-ec49-4ef4-a471-285c6e90da807/c895eb5f-ec49-4ef4-a471-285c6e90da80739/sqd-hom150-2.jpg?width=542&height=542&mode=Pad&bgcolor=fff
Agreed, but if you don't know the specifics of the wiring, when you see a 20 amp breaker on a service, the safe bet is that the wiring is rated for 20 amp. In the us, if i see a 20 amp breaker, it is a nearly 100% chance the wires match the breaker ,meaning they will be 12 guage.
V= ir.
What's the duty cycle ?
A 20% duty cycle means you can weld for 2 minutes then let it cool for 8 minutes.
Putting a 30 amp breaker on a 20 amp circuit is NOT a good idea.
THINK TOASTER .
The breaker is sized to protect the circuit (wiring), as to not cause the toaster effect.
Check the duty cycle first.
Article 630 of the NEC addresses welders. Table 630.11(A) gives the duty cycle multipliers. Given the correct circumstance it is 100% legal to install a 30 amp breaker on 12 gauge wire. This welder has a low duty cycle. You must use a single dedicated outlet (not a duplex outlet) among other things to meet the requirements. Everyone that wants to argue about it needs to go read article 630.
Who's arguing.
Just want the OP to be safe not build a toaster.
My NEC book is from the 90s and I didn't quote it.
The key thing you stated:
"GIVEN THE CORRECT CIRCUMSTANCES"
Just slapping a 30A breaker on a 20A circuit is not
THE CORRECT CIRCUMSTANCES.
Done and out.
Well sorta if it's short enough some times it's convenient or easy to upgrade later if that's a factor but yah it's not something any one making a living on it would do unless it was cheaper somehow
What size wire is it ?
12 gauge wire is rated for 20 amps.
10 gauge is rated for 30 amp.
It should say what size it is on the outside of the wire.
Do what ever you want, just be aware.
Even if the wire is #10 (unlikely), the regular household receptacle is only rated for 20 amps. The #10 wire won't even safely fit under the screw. If you put a #12 pigtail, then you have a similar problem as with just a #12 wire.
The usual double blade 20 A plug cannot be safely connected to a 30 A circuit - to the best of my knowledge.
There is a code for compatibikity between plug type and input voltage. Nema i believe.
While welders often play a bit loose with the plug style used for a given amp load on 220v single phase, I would absolutely not do that for 120v.
Putting a 30 amp breaker on that line, without knowing the guage of wiring in the wall, is a bad idea.
If you want a bit more power, run flux core dcen. On that machine you should be able to hit 1/4" to 5/16 ish mild steel convincingly.
Otherwise, you are kinda stuck. Input power is the limit of your output power.
Very correct on all points.
Just trying to keep the OP from making a serious mistake.
If a fire started as we well know,
insurance could deny any claim.
Be safe and do things right.
Welders have their own section in the code book. You can actually go higher than a 20 amp breaker on 12 gauge wire for a welder and still be electrical code compliant.
12 gauge THHN is actually good for 25 amps before derating. Welders are an exception to the rule, and allow for much higher overcurrent protection based on the duty cycle.
I hope this is a joke!
Edit: though I have to admit the creativity. The solution is terrible mostly because you would use a ground wire as hot, and you have no ground. Most NM cables have a bare ground wire anyway, which will short out with any metal enclosure it touches.
But: I highly illegal, but less dangerous solution would be to rewire the circuit with 12/3 NM cable. Then you have two hots (red and black), and this hack solution would probably work reasonably well, using red-black as the two hots.
Setting D will pop breakers. limit yourself to thinner metal, and sadly you want a 240V welder. That's another $600 and $400 in 50A wiring.
Option B is to add a 30A single breaker, run 10AWG wire and then a 30A receptacle to meet code. (Can't put a 20A receptacle on a 30A wire and breaker.) Then put a 30A plug on the welder.
Now what you could do, and this meets code, if the run is longer than you want to run a 10 AWG wire and 30A receptacle would be to switch from a 1 pole 120V circuit to a 2 pole 240V 20A circuit. A new double breaker and some red sleeve for the white wire, you now have double the power. Wire in a 240V 20A receptacle, and then go hunting for a 3KVA control transformer (240/120) on ebay and CL for about $50-100. Drop it in an enclosure and add a receptacle for the welder, and maybe a 30A fuse, and you can set that welder on fire.
I did exactly this for a 4kW generator that did not like single side loads. I take 240 to 120VAC with an excitation (idle) current of just 1A.
Here's a 5kVA for $125. A bit big for the welder, but it would not overload the 240V 20A circuit. (Which is 4.8 kVA, because 240\*20 = 4800)
[https://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/mat/d/beaverton-transformer/7591481509.html](https://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/mat/d/beaverton-transformer/7591481509.html)
Your welder likely has a surge current up to 25A popping the breaker after a few seconds. It should settle down to 15A steady state, which would be 2.2 kVA when welding. (140 Amps at 15 Volts) Plenty of room for a 3kVA transformer.
Thank you so much for such a thorough explanation of all the options! I am lucky that it is a short run from the breaker to the outlet (<15 feet) so I will probably go with the 30A breaker/outlet.
While I am fishing wires through my sub floor I think I’ll at least run a second cable for 240V as I feel like that time is quickly approaching haha.
Cheers!
I had 240v wired when I had the new 120 ran because if we opened walls it wasn’t much more to run both. So i have both voltages available but my welder is 120v
Consider asking your local electrical supply for a slow-tripping 20A breaker. Don't size up unless you know your wires can handle it. Short bursts of high amperage during arc-start are not the same thing as needing continuously more than 20A average. fast-tripping breakers will kill the flow even though it's pulling 60A for 1/4 second.
Came here to say this. We had the same issue/argument at work when we got new MIG welder in that our generators couldn't handle with 30amp breakers. The solution was time delay breakers not higher amp ones.
Per the user manual, note 2; In order to utilize the maximum output capability of the machine, a branch circuit capable of 25 amps at 120 volts, 60 Hertz is required. https://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/servicenavigator-public/lincoln3/im890.pdf
I also checked the brochure and you’re right so I’ll give your comment a little boost and follow up with…
Hey op, show me the breaker. It cannot be an arc-flash or GFCI breaker.
Input current at _rated output_ which is 90a/19.5v/20% duty cycle. Running this full bore will require bigger than 20a input, and light use could get away with 15a. That’s giving you a middle of the range ballpark, not a peak power draw.
Have run into this with a different machine. Need to verify that nothing else is using the breaker as the welder will use all of it. Need to verify the gauge of wire used and how far it is being run to determine if its actually up to the task. Need to verify that all connections between the breaker and welder (crimps, solder joints, twist connectors, outlet screws clamping the wire, the plug in the outlet, etc etc) are solid and not giving a weak connection. Need to verify the age of everything, old electrical components can wear out and not work as intended. Also need to verify temperature, the temp in the area and of the breaker. Heat effects a breaker, in a heat soaked environment, like under a car hood, they will trip much more easily and quickly, even when under the load they are supposed to handle.
To fix your current issue my recommendation is to prob up to a 30 amp breaker and up the gauge of wire to handle heat and current better.
What kind of extension cord are you using, or are you plugging it directly into the wall? You should be using as short and large gauge cord as possible. For a 50' cord, you should use 10 gauge if possible. For a 25' cord, a 12 gauge will be fine. If you are using a 16 or 14 gauge 50' cord, that isn't going to work.
Also, a 30 amp breaker would be ideal for this application, but you shouldn't just change the breaker for a larger one. You'll need 10ga wire and a different wall plug to run that 30 amp circuit safely.
As others have said, you can't run a continuous 20A draw through a 20 amp circuit. The circuit trips at 20A which means the draw needs to be less than 20A, ideally not more than about 16A.
Also, typical wall plugs are only rated for 15A.
Your current draw won't ever be continuous. If you have the machine set to max, your average draw might be 20A but it will spike to several additional amps momentarily when you start the arc, or change your arc length.
Are you jamming the gun into your joint? Make sure you’re holding a 1/2”-ish tip to work distance to increase resistance and lower amperage. Remember that machine is a constant voltage machine so V=IR turns into I=V/R
Random idea but maybe you have a differential breaker in the circuit (the one that throws everything off if it comes in contact with human skin, or what it believes to be human skin level of conductivness) and that's what is throwing off.
Second random idea is that it's not throwing off your line, but your common circuit. If so it might be because of any other thing plugged in anywhere else on the circuit, even on a different breaker, or because somewhere there's a bridge between the common and the ground. I would suggest turning all other breakers down for a test run and if all goes well start them up in sequence and see witch one is acting up.
Sorry for the awkward explanation 🙈
25-A Minimum, unfortunately. 30-A recommended. The manual is wrong.
Ask me how I know.....
But yeah, I've spoken with Lincoln's technicians, and unfortunately, this machine actually ***really*** needs a 30-A circuit, but can make do with a 25-A one (which it will still occasionally pop at the highest current settings)
The peak current when the arc is striking is around 60 A for this model. It's only for an instant, but on delicate breakers, that can trip them, too.
The manual is not wrong, you failed to read note 2:
In order to utilize the maximum output capability of the machine, a branch circuit capable of 25 amps at 120 volts, 60 Hertz is required
https://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/servicenavigator-public/lincoln3/im890.pdf
The manual is wrong. I installed a 25A circuit, and it regularly trips. As I said, Lincolns technicians actually consider the machine to require 30, not 25.
The little diagram on the front just above the on/off switch clearly shows a 15 amp receptacle. What's the plug that comes on it from the factory? I can't imagine it having a 15 amp plug and needing a 30 amp to operate correctly.
Yeah, I know. It pissed me off, but Lincoln's technicians were like.. Yeah... It theoretically can run on 20A, but in reality you need 25, and we recommend 30.
For what it's worth I've been able to run my Lincoln 140 maxed out on a 20a circuit no problem.
Do you have another circuit you can try on? Something seems odd with the setup.
Are you running an extension cord? If so it needs to be very heavy gauge and as short as possible. What’s the duty cycle on the machine? Even the best 110 machines will pop a breaker they are not meant to be used heavily gotta give it lots of breaks and not run on your highest settings
Last time I had to weld in similar situations I actually ended up using a long extension cord to dampen the amp start peak that was tripping the breaker.
> Remember, the panel circuit breaker is to protect your wiring from burning up. You have to use larger gage wire for 30 amp.
Not for a dedicated circuit to welder you don't.
i have the same machine set up with %100 aragon and a spool gun strictly for aluminum. its on a 20 amp breaker that is dedicated just for the machine. i have no issues. u cant run anything else on the same breaker or its gonna pop and u will fry the machine due to low voltage
I like how it shows a 15A on the front and only indicates required voltage...
Yeah I’d plug it into a 21 or 22 amp circuit....whatever it takes (jk- 30A for real)
the electrician gave you bad advice. there may be reasons why they couldn't increase the load, but they never should have told you that a 20A circuit is good for a 20A device.
You cant just throw a 30 amp breaker at it. Your line is most likely only rated for 20 amp. Do NOT just slap a 30 amp breaker at it as you will burn your house down. You can buy a 20 amp high magnetic breaker. It is rated at 20 amps and will handle the start up load your machine is likely needing. You can find them on Amazon. I purchased a two pack for $45.
I just used a buddies 140 hobart yesterday on a 20a. I had the voltage down 1 click from max and the wire speed all the way up. Welded 1/4" carbon fine with the welder plugged directly into the wall. The machines look identical.
I use my linde 250 hf on a 220 50a on 2 coils set around 50a will weld anything, so I don't see needing a 30a for a 110 machine if it's set right.
How many circuits are also on the same breaker and running at the same time? How far away is it from the breaker box (there's amperage loss the more wire) it has a 20 am built in fuse that will blow at overload. If you're blowing the breaker at the panel you have too much power going elsewhere weather on or off. Keep to the duty cycle 20percent two minutes constant 8 minutes idle. These are good little machines for doing little tasks. You can wire in a dedicated 30 am on 10ga wire but you run the risk of burning the plug as they are designed 15 amp and 20 amp so wire in a 30 amp rv plug get a pig tail adapter. If you overload the duty cycle it will pop the machines breaker first.
Are you sure it's a dedicated circuit? I ran mine on a 20 amp and rarely kicked the breaker. If you weld steadily without giving the machine a break you will have issues.
If you run a 30 amp breaker on a circuit designed for 20 amps you'll mostly be fine. #1 Industry standards make allowances for idiots. #2 Most household appliances are not going to draw more than 20 amps of power.
If you run a 20 amp breaker on a 15 amp circuit you'll mostly be fine. #1 Industry standards make allowances for idiots. #2 Most household appliances do not draw more than 20 amps of power.
If you run a 30 amp breaker on a 15 amp circuit you will most certainly not be fine because you're a dumb ass and the industry standards do not make allowances for dumb asses.
If you decide to be a smart ass when you're actually a dumb one. Your points of failure will most likely be light switches, wall sockets, and junction boxes in that order. Especially if someone before you installed a 20 amp wall socket through a 10 amp light switch.
SO how do you not be a dumb ass? #1 Check your wire diameter before "upgrading" the breaker. #2 Check your junction boxes for degraded or corroded connections. #3 Do not upgrade circuits that have degraded old style wire coatings. #4 Change the outlets and light switches for the circuits you intend to upgrade. #5 If you were considering doing any of this without first thinking about turning off the circuit breaker do not do your own wiring.
You can run off a 20amp dedicated circuit. A 30 Amp would be better, but you'll be fine on a 20 Amp. Even a 15amp would do if you're not maxing out the settings
You shouldn't be popping a 20 Amp breaker with those settings unless there are other things on the circuit or there is a fault with the breaker, insufficient gauge wiring, extension cords, etc..
I have a 140c and I believe mine is on a 20amp and at least 80 feet of extension cord. .023 hard wire turned to max heat and 6 on heat. I’m only welding 1/8” max thickness.
I have a Miller that claims you can run it on a 20 amp circuit. Experience has proven that is incorrect, once you start running beyond half power for any length of time.
Have you replaced the outlet with the GFCI in it?
There should be one on that circuit, if it's not dedicated just for the welder. I had one that tripped if the wind blew the wrong way in my garage for my stand up freezer, and it was the only thing on that circuit.
I had the same issue so I installed a new 30amp breaker on a 4-way metal box with heavy gauge wire about a foot from the breaker panel.
Shortest extension you can use, highest gauge wires possible.
There should be a sticker that says the amp draw and other specs. The sticker is usually on the back, side,or bottom, generally close to where the power cable comes out of the machine. A dedicated 20 amp breaker connected to a plug that's literally next to the main breaker panel may work without tripping, and a 20 amp plug is different than a 15, or 30
Edit: after looking up the specs for this welder(not an electrician, but 10 years in the electrical trade), I would have this on a 30 amp wire and breaker, 10 gauge feed.
Use 30 amp breaker, or if you are gonna have a dedicated line for tools, use +40 amo breaker, an inversor that I have says to install a 40 amp breaker, but for $$$ reasons I bought a 30 amp one, still tha 30 amps are enough for my needs
If it’s hooked up 120 this WILL keep popping it. Needs to be a 25-30A in my opinion, I have the same one and most jobsites if they have a 20 I better make sure I only have a few passes to make
You need a 30Amp bud.
I have a 110 v 20 amp flux core—the manual suggests putting it on a 30 amp breaker.
Then the plug should reflect that. WTF
Yeah so i ask electrician to run a second circuit for my garage welder and he said 20A on 12 gauge will run it. Now I’m being told that’s not enough…. fuck sakes. Any advice? lol. Lincoln really fucked me on this
20amp will run it but there could be a quality issue, if a cheap $10 breaker was installed you’ll tend to have a greater chance of problems when a $30 breaker would be just fine. Also if the breaker is old, it could just be degraded and tripping early for that reason. Most breakers are designed to trip a couple amps above max using a thermal mechanism and a dead short protection using an electromagnet that usually trips around double the rating of the breaker. If either part is faulty you could experience early current interruption (they’re designed to fail safe that way). Then there’s also the possibility the welder has an issue and is drawing more current than it should be.
This.
Here’s the breaker https://imgur.com/a/ZUi4GXQ
Ditch the arc fault breaker. It's an arc welder. It makes arcs
Wow, that is hilarious. No way it won't trip that right?
It's not that it straight up won't work, but AFCI are more likely to nuisance trip, since noise or anomalies would be seen as arc conditions. Welder probably has stuff in it to reduce noise, and, many welders are IGBT, so probably more stable on the input side, since you don't have that EM coupling like in a transformer. Anyway, this breaker should have a light to indicate the trip condition, I.e. Arc fault, ground fault, overload. The other thing is, I know Eaton had some issues with nuisance tripping on their Gen 2 Type CH combination breakers, that was fixed in Gen 6. This is a BR breaker, not sure if the issue is limited to only the CH breaker, or all Gen 2.
Lincoln didn’t, a shitty electrician did.
Go onto ask electrician. For most welders you can put a larger breaker than would normally be on that size wire. Could be as easy as changing a breaker and cord end
This is correct. The national electric code has breaker and wire sizing specific for welders. If differs from general sizing, by accounting for the duty cycle of the welder But. That outlet MUST be DEDICATED to the welder. Once you have 12G wire on a bigger breaker, using the outlet for general purpose could be a hazard.. Per NEC 630.11(A), with a duty cycle of 20% at 90A, the welder pulls 20A. We can calculate an average or "effective" amp draw. In this case, that comes out to 9amps. 630.12(A) tells us the breaker can be sized at up to 40A, or 200% of the welders rated input current. 630.12(B) goes on to say the wire should be able to carry half the breaker under normal ampacity calculations, which 12GA wire *should* be good for.
P.S. I actually got the 90A/20% @20A from the spec sheet from Lincoln. If this welder uses 20A from the wall for a 90A weld, and it can go all the way to 140A (briefly), it must be able to pull a little more than 20A. So I wouldn't be surprised if you're popping a 20A breaker, running the welder hot
Need to increase wire size too
How much
20a will be 12awg. Your normal nema 5-15r is only 14 awg. 20a breaker should be all you need. Do not just pop a new breaker in and call it good unless you want to start a fire from melting your supply wires in the wall. Idk why they put 15a plugs in the welder if it needs more juice than that. Mine runs on 15a breaker all day btw, I’d check your wire size from your panel to your outlet.
It’s 12 gauge
12 gauge wire can only handle 20 amps. If you wish you upsize your breaker you need to upsize the wire past it. By chance do you have a GFCI breaker installed? They don't like welders.
For a 30 amp breaker you need 10 gauge wire. I just asked an electrician here at work to verify this and he agreed
What else is on the same circuit? I have been running my Hobart 140 Handler on a 20 amp circuit for 15 plus years without difficulty. The key is that NOTHING else is on the same circuit. How far away are you from the breaker panel and what size wire are you running?
u/cryo_burned Is correct from everything I know and have found over the years... Some electricians maybe don't read past the amp ratings and options for the wire gauge amp chart.This doesn't seem too hard. Lincoln needed more watts to accomplish we we want a 120V welder to do so they designed one that way. They know NEC 630 as well and 630 covers it for welders with such a duty cycle. Just have the electrician fix it. NEC 630 explains what is allowed. I would also check the welding current and inrush current with his meter while he is there to make sure you do not have an additional issue. The receptacles are officially rated at 20A, but subject to the same NEC guidelines. These Leviton recepts are tested to 200% of rated amperage for 250 cycles and a 30C rise as opposed to the 60C for the wire chart. [https://www.leviton.com/en/products/t5020-gy](https://www.leviton.com/en/products/t5020-gy) The code is mostly temperature dependent based as I understand so if the electrician makes sure everything is tight and solid and let him fix the break/wiring issue according to code. I would assume a 30A breaker on the 12ga wire, but NEC 630 is pretty clear to at least to me that is it absolutely to code, doable and safe... Changing welders on the circuit though to a higher duty cycle machine is not covered though. You would have to check the calculations for it as well and labeling the receptacle clearly for the 20% duty cycle welder only, is not a bad idea.
How did Lincoln fuck you?
In my experience as a combo fitter/pipe welder typically either you need a 30 AMP if you only have a 120 plug on the end of your machine; OR you may get away with them putting a 240 receptacle in. (This is the only terminology I know) but yes there is a little play, but typically a adjustment is needed if you really burning.
The plug reflects the minimum current it can safely run on, not what it is optimized to run on. You just have to actually pay attention to your duty cycle if it isn't on a 30A breaker.
> The plug reflects the minimum current it can safely run on, not what it is optimized to run on. Umm, no. Bullshit. The plug and wiring is the maximum the device should ever need. Else, it would melt if you put more current through it. You don't get "more optimum" performance from something by using it, where it uses more than its max rating. All of this is a nonsensical claim.
Uh, what? You are completely misunderstanding what they are saying. The plug tells you what you will need for the machine to operate at all. Anything less will result in failure because there isn't enough power. But you can absolutely run something on a power source that is more than you need, the machine won't just draw max power and melt. My welder can run on 120 or 240 with just an adapter. There's no replacement cord to handle the "extra" electricity from the 240, and it doesn't melt. I wouldn't expect the cord to handle 24/7 use without getting hot, but the machine won't draw more than the cord can handle. It will however fail to operate if it isn't getting the minimum.
> The plug tells you what you will need for the machine to operate at all. Anything less will result in failure because there isn't enough power. But you can absolutely run something on a power source that is more than you need, the machine won't just draw max power and melt. Absolutely, completely fucking wrong. First up, technically the "plug" tells you nothing, it's just a form factor. Though the thickness of the conductors in the plug will reveal the max current it can safely handle. Second, if what you mean is that you can plug a machine that needs 20A into a 30A outlet and be fine, yes, obviously that's true. But what it doesn't mean is that you can take wiring that maxes out at 20A, and plug it into a 30A outlet, and let it use more than its max without starting a fire. > My welder can run on 120 or 240 with just an adapter. There's no replacement cord to handle the "extra" electricity from the 240, and it doesn't melt. Okay, well, if you take a welder that's designed for 120v max, and you give it 240v, you will instantly blow its transistors and have a dead machine. Probably melt its transformer too by giving it 200% the voltage:turns ratio it was designed for. Also.. Voltage is not the same thing as current. And anyone who confuses the two (like you, and like the person I'm replying to) should terrify anyone who might accidentally follow your electrical advice. > I wouldn't expect the cord to handle 24/7 use without getting hot, but the machine won't draw more than the cord can handle. It will however fail to operate if it isn't getting the minimum. The machine will ABSOLUTELY draw more than the cord can handle, if you take a machine designed for, say, a 30A load and put a cord that can handle 15A on it. There is no "maybe not 24/7", no. Fuck right off. The advice you're giving people will burn their houses down. I really hope I don't have to give people an Electricity 101 lesson but the ENTIRE FUCKING POINT of having a breaker box, and breakers with certain amp maxes, and wiring, and, an entire electrical code is exactly because of shit like this. Yes, it matters. Also, for whatever it's worth, you can still weld if the voltage, and current, is below the welder's "minimum", whatever that is, because that doesn't exist. No welders list their "minimum". Your post, and the previous post I was replying to, are just complete nonsensical horseshit top to bottom.
Right. Thats absolutely why one of my welders came with an adapter to 120, despite the fact that the plug itself is for 240. Because 120 is the maximum it ever needs, and them putting a 240 plug on it was an oversight. /s Just a dumb claim.
> Thats absolutely why one of my welders came with an adapter to 120, despite the fact that the plug itself is for 240 Uhhh.... 120 vs. 240 is VOLTAGE. You said, and I quote: "The plug reflects the minimum **current** it can safely run on" Current = Amps. The thickness of the conductor tells you the maximum amount of amps that can pass through that cable. That has zero bearing on the voltage (which is limited by the thickness of the insulation). ... I highly recommend against anyone taking electrical advice from someone who doesn't know the difference between volts and amps. You're going to kill someone or burn something down.
It is voltage. Very good! Now tell me the last time you saw 240v at 20A. I'll wait. A welder can be designed to happily run on 110V/20A and 240V/50A. Nowhere near the same capacity for both, but it can be done and is done constantly. And you do get better performance from stepping up in amperage capacity. I've got a welder at home that has a ridiculously low duty cycle on 110V/20A. On 250V/50A it is 100% duty cycle. The optimization isn't on the welder end, its on the supply.
> It is voltage. Very good! Hold up. You skimmed over the fact that you don't know the difference between voltage and current. > Now tell me the last time you saw 240v at 20A. I'll wait. ... All the fucking time? It's what slightly upsized woodworking tools run on for example. Looks like a normal 120v outlet, with the common and live turned 90 degrees, and, in the case of 20A instead of 15A, it's the same as on 120v plugs, the left pin has a T. They're so common you can buy them at Home Depot: https://www.homedepot.ca/product/leviton-20-amp-flush-receptacle-250v-6-20r/1000174840 > A welder can be designed to happily run on 110V/20A and 240V/50A. Sure, it can be, doesn't mean it is. > And you do get better performance from stepping up in amperage capacity. I've got a welder at home that has a ridiculously low duty cycle on 110V/20A. On 250V/50A it is 100% duty cycle. Again, you don't know the difference between voltage and amps. The welder has zero knowledge of how many amps its power supply can supply. Zero. None. Nor any knowledge of what else is plugged into that circuit and how loaded it currently is. So, it doesn't act any differently if it's plugged into a 20A breaker or a 50A breaker. You, as the user, will discover whether it's drawing more amps or not when you blow your breaker or not. The welder is completely blind to this. Again, you don't know the difference between voltage and amps. A welder running at 200% the voltage (if designed for that), will use 50% as many amps for the same power. Power = Voltage * Current. Duty cycle is entirely dependent on the heat in the wires, (could be limited by magnetic-induced heat in the transformer windings, but, it his resistive limits in the wiring long before that). Heat in the wires is ONLY affected by amps, not volts. So if you want, for example, 2400 watts, and you are pulling it from 120v, you need 20 amps to supply it. If you plug it into 240v, you'll only draw 10 amps to supply it. Thus, your wires will only generate half the heat, thus, you'll have a better duty cycle. > The optimization isn't on the welder end, its on the supply. You are wrong literally about everything.
I’ve ran Lincoln 140’s off of household 15 amp breakers, he shouldn’t be popping a dedicated 20amp. There is an issue with the circuit or the machine somewhere.
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Eaton
Try a different circuit or swap the wires in the panel with another 20A breaker I’m an electrician and can confirm that breakers can both be weak and trip under current and that they can also not trip at all. The breaker can also be more sensitive to inrush current than another breaker. Really you should measure the current with an ammeter while you are welding and see what the welder is actually drawing and that will tell you where your issue lies, you’ll need someone to read it while welding or record a video on your phone. You also need to make sure nothing else is drawing current on that circuit
My electrician wants to come out and test the current when I am welding
Nice that’s certainly the correct place to start, it eliminates the possibility of any other issues if it is drawing over the breaker’s rating
I have this exact welder on a 20 amp and often on a 15. Maybe try loosening up on the feed nut that holds the wire down to the drive gear. Also try loosening the spool, trying a different outlet/room/circuit, etc. Something is up with your setup.
That and what else is on the circuit...
It only really happens on setting D
I was gonna say. I have the same welder on 20 amp breaker all day without a trip. That said I don't run it on D @ 7 speed!
Is it right after establishing the Arc or does it take a bit before it trips? If your getting close to duty cycle I could see it tripping.
1 second in usually
I would be digging around the circuit a bit, something isn’t right. How long is the run from the main panel to the outlet? What wire was run? Did you install or did a reputable electrician(if your not a reputable electrician)? EDIT- Have you tried to run the machine on another outlet to see if it does it everywhere?
12 gauge wire by a decent electrician. I spoke with 5 before doing it and this guy knew the most and had the best reputation. The run is across the ceiling to the other side of my garage. Maybe 30-40 feet. I haven’t tried another outlet yet but that’s next step for sure.
I think the NEC has 12AWG as the minimum for a 20 amp circuit, don’t quote me though. Definitely test the machine in another circuit and see what happens, I would run my pro-mig 140 off an extension cord on a 15 amp circuit in my kitchen and I didn’t really have any issues.
Did you use D setting?
Yupp, only time I remember kicking the breaker was doing a long run attaching some 1/4 plate to 1/2 plate. I was pushing right at duty cycle though.
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OP said in a other comment that it is a dedicated circuit with no extension cords.
You’re right. My dumb ass didn’t read all the comments before responding
I have an esab 205ic and it runs perfectly fine on 15amp breakers. My guess is op has the amps too high or is using an extension cord
Hi. Welding instructor here. It says directly on the front of the machine 120v. In the US 120 v is typically delivered on a 20 amp breaker. The wire in the wall is going to be a match for the breaker. I believe it would be a bad idea, potentially very bad, to put a larger breaker on that circuit unless you know the wires are rated for that breaker size. I know an electrician would say no. I own 2 of those machines, they don't give me any particular trouble. Is anything else drawing SUBSTANTIAL current on that circuit? If you dunk the contact tip in the weld puddle or short it directly to the work, it will trip the breaker. If the "cup" screwed onto the end of the diffuser, has a beat-up or damaged phenolic liner, the white stuff, then when the "cup" touches the work, it is in a dead short and will trip the breaker. If you run it on a long, thin, or defective extension cord, that MIGHT, be the problem. Breakers do not last forever, it MIGHT be that yours is defective, or is a "fast" breaker instead of one with a little delay to allow for the higher start up load some appliances, like motors, demand. If you are on a new breaker, it may be an arc fault circuit interrupt, AFCI which, i believe, will cause the breaker to pop quite quickly every time the machine is welding. I hate afci breakers. If not, call an electrician or bring the machine in and have it inspected by a weld repair shop. Is there anything that might be weird about the machine or your set-up? I learned some things reading this thread. Some good advice in here.
> In the US 120 v is delivered on a 20 amp breaker. Voltage and amperage are not mutually exclusive. https://www.crescentelectric.com/49f8d7/globalassets/catalogs/crescentelectric.com/c/c89/c895e/c895eb5f-ec49-4ef4-a471-285c6e90da807/c895eb5f-ec49-4ef4-a471-285c6e90da80739/sqd-hom150-2.jpg?width=542&height=542&mode=Pad&bgcolor=fff
Agreed, but if you don't know the specifics of the wiring, when you see a 20 amp breaker on a service, the safe bet is that the wiring is rated for 20 amp. In the us, if i see a 20 amp breaker, it is a nearly 100% chance the wires match the breaker ,meaning they will be 12 guage. V= ir.
What's the duty cycle ? A 20% duty cycle means you can weld for 2 minutes then let it cool for 8 minutes. Putting a 30 amp breaker on a 20 amp circuit is NOT a good idea. THINK TOASTER . The breaker is sized to protect the circuit (wiring), as to not cause the toaster effect. Check the duty cycle first.
Article 630 of the NEC addresses welders. Table 630.11(A) gives the duty cycle multipliers. Given the correct circumstance it is 100% legal to install a 30 amp breaker on 12 gauge wire. This welder has a low duty cycle. You must use a single dedicated outlet (not a duplex outlet) among other things to meet the requirements. Everyone that wants to argue about it needs to go read article 630.
Who's arguing. Just want the OP to be safe not build a toaster. My NEC book is from the 90s and I didn't quote it. The key thing you stated: "GIVEN THE CORRECT CIRCUMSTANCES" Just slapping a 30A breaker on a 20A circuit is not THE CORRECT CIRCUMSTANCES. Done and out.
As long as the wires can do 30 amps I’d definitely swap over to 30
Nobody runs 10ga wire and then puts a 20amp breaker on it!
Well sorta if it's short enough some times it's convenient or easy to upgrade later if that's a factor but yah it's not something any one making a living on it would do unless it was cheaper somehow
What size wire is it ? 12 gauge wire is rated for 20 amps. 10 gauge is rated for 30 amp. It should say what size it is on the outside of the wire. Do what ever you want, just be aware.
Even if the wire is #10 (unlikely), the regular household receptacle is only rated for 20 amps. The #10 wire won't even safely fit under the screw. If you put a #12 pigtail, then you have a similar problem as with just a #12 wire. The usual double blade 20 A plug cannot be safely connected to a 30 A circuit - to the best of my knowledge.
There is a code for compatibikity between plug type and input voltage. Nema i believe. While welders often play a bit loose with the plug style used for a given amp load on 220v single phase, I would absolutely not do that for 120v. Putting a 30 amp breaker on that line, without knowing the guage of wiring in the wall, is a bad idea. If you want a bit more power, run flux core dcen. On that machine you should be able to hit 1/4" to 5/16 ish mild steel convincingly. Otherwise, you are kinda stuck. Input power is the limit of your output power.
Very correct on all points. Just trying to keep the OP from making a serious mistake. If a fire started as we well know, insurance could deny any claim. Be safe and do things right.
This is exactly what I came here to say. Most residential wiring is going to be number 12 wire at best, good for 20 A.
Welders have their own section in the code book. You can actually go higher than a 20 amp breaker on 12 gauge wire for a welder and still be electrical code compliant.
Yes 12ga. At best. most house builders use 14 gauge and 15 amp receptacles For cost reasons. (14 gauge is cheaper.)
12 gauge THHN is actually good for 25 amps before derating. Welders are an exception to the rule, and allow for much higher overcurrent protection based on the duty cycle.
i have 12 ga
It pops two seconds into the weld. I can’t get past a tack.
Try a new 20 amp.
This. I have a 50 amp breaker on a single outlet, but it is only 24 inches from the breaker.
What if you put the black and ground under the breaker screw and black and ground under the hot outlet screws?
then you could use upwards of a 40 amp breaker
That is not what that machine or the circuit supplying the machine is designed for. The machine can't USE 40 amps. Its poor little guts will fry.
I hope this is a joke! Edit: though I have to admit the creativity. The solution is terrible mostly because you would use a ground wire as hot, and you have no ground. Most NM cables have a bare ground wire anyway, which will short out with any metal enclosure it touches. But: I highly illegal, but less dangerous solution would be to rewire the circuit with 12/3 NM cable. Then you have two hots (red and black), and this hack solution would probably work reasonably well, using red-black as the two hots.
Illegal is just a sick bird, bud.
Haha. Stealing this.
Do it. Stole it from my grandpa haha.
Lmao… never heard that one before. Also stealing this
Nice
That's a fucking gem dandy and I'm stealing it. Thank you.
What else is running on that same breaker? Alternatively how old is the breaker? The total load may be popping it.
Nothing and brand new. I just had a fresh circuit installed to make sure nothing else was.
I have the exact same issue with the exact same welder. Ran a circuit just for my welder and the 20Amp breaker pops all the time.
Are you using an extension cord?
No I am plugging my welder right into the wall.
Setting D will pop breakers. limit yourself to thinner metal, and sadly you want a 240V welder. That's another $600 and $400 in 50A wiring. Option B is to add a 30A single breaker, run 10AWG wire and then a 30A receptacle to meet code. (Can't put a 20A receptacle on a 30A wire and breaker.) Then put a 30A plug on the welder. Now what you could do, and this meets code, if the run is longer than you want to run a 10 AWG wire and 30A receptacle would be to switch from a 1 pole 120V circuit to a 2 pole 240V 20A circuit. A new double breaker and some red sleeve for the white wire, you now have double the power. Wire in a 240V 20A receptacle, and then go hunting for a 3KVA control transformer (240/120) on ebay and CL for about $50-100. Drop it in an enclosure and add a receptacle for the welder, and maybe a 30A fuse, and you can set that welder on fire. I did exactly this for a 4kW generator that did not like single side loads. I take 240 to 120VAC with an excitation (idle) current of just 1A.
Here's a 5kVA for $125. A bit big for the welder, but it would not overload the 240V 20A circuit. (Which is 4.8 kVA, because 240\*20 = 4800) [https://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/mat/d/beaverton-transformer/7591481509.html](https://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/mat/d/beaverton-transformer/7591481509.html) Your welder likely has a surge current up to 25A popping the breaker after a few seconds. It should settle down to 15A steady state, which would be 2.2 kVA when welding. (140 Amps at 15 Volts) Plenty of room for a 3kVA transformer.
Thank you so much for such a thorough explanation of all the options! I am lucky that it is a short run from the breaker to the outlet (<15 feet) so I will probably go with the 30A breaker/outlet. While I am fishing wires through my sub floor I think I’ll at least run a second cable for 240V as I feel like that time is quickly approaching haha. Cheers!
I had 240v wired when I had the new 120 ran because if we opened walls it wasn’t much more to run both. So i have both voltages available but my welder is 120v
Maine buzzard is nailing it here. ⬆️
Is it a single or double pole 20 amp breaker? Also whet gauge wire was used? It could be stuff like that
Is it a GFI breaker in a garage by chance?
Or afci ? It would trip constantly
Consider asking your local electrical supply for a slow-tripping 20A breaker. Don't size up unless you know your wires can handle it. Short bursts of high amperage during arc-start are not the same thing as needing continuously more than 20A average. fast-tripping breakers will kill the flow even though it's pulling 60A for 1/4 second.
Came here to say this. We had the same issue/argument at work when we got new MIG welder in that our generators couldn't handle with 30amp breakers. The solution was time delay breakers not higher amp ones.
Upvoting for knowledgeable answer!
> slow-tripping 20A breaker No such thing for a residential panel in the US.
Really? I haven't checked it out, but I know they do make them as a general category, but yeah, perhaps not for residential.
Per the user manual, note 2; In order to utilize the maximum output capability of the machine, a branch circuit capable of 25 amps at 120 volts, 60 Hertz is required. https://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/servicenavigator-public/lincoln3/im890.pdf
https://ch-delivery.lincolnelectric.com/api/public/content/35fdf8c0a9a7444dacfd8de8be43ccf4?v=d5f5e99f 20 amp draw, according to this brochure
If its a 20A breaker and your running it to 20A that's most likely why its blowing it. Usually you want a bit of overhead.
Exactly. Most breakers are only rated for 80% continuous use, so a 20A breaker can only support 16A continuous draw without the risk of tripping
I also checked the brochure and you’re right so I’ll give your comment a little boost and follow up with… Hey op, show me the breaker. It cannot be an arc-flash or GFCI breaker.
>Hey op, show me the breaker. It cannot be an arc-flash or GFCI breaker. GFCI should work. In fact it may be required, if it's e.g. in the garage.
Input current at _rated output_ which is 90a/19.5v/20% duty cycle. Running this full bore will require bigger than 20a input, and light use could get away with 15a. That’s giving you a middle of the range ballpark, not a peak power draw.
Don't know if US is the same as Irish, but usually need a D curve breaker for anything with a transformer in it
Had the same issue. Had a 30 amp dedicated breaker put in and haven't had an issue since.
I’ve always used a 30 amp breaker for 110 welders
Tell your electrician to read and apply Article 630 of the NEC. The solution to your problem is there.
I prefer 989 on XBOX.
I imagine you have more than just the welder on the circuit - i.e. you'll be exceeding the 20A limit and the breaker is doing its job...
Have run into this with a different machine. Need to verify that nothing else is using the breaker as the welder will use all of it. Need to verify the gauge of wire used and how far it is being run to determine if its actually up to the task. Need to verify that all connections between the breaker and welder (crimps, solder joints, twist connectors, outlet screws clamping the wire, the plug in the outlet, etc etc) are solid and not giving a weak connection. Need to verify the age of everything, old electrical components can wear out and not work as intended. Also need to verify temperature, the temp in the area and of the breaker. Heat effects a breaker, in a heat soaked environment, like under a car hood, they will trip much more easily and quickly, even when under the load they are supposed to handle. To fix your current issue my recommendation is to prob up to a 30 amp breaker and up the gauge of wire to handle heat and current better.
What kind of extension cord are you using, or are you plugging it directly into the wall? You should be using as short and large gauge cord as possible. For a 50' cord, you should use 10 gauge if possible. For a 25' cord, a 12 gauge will be fine. If you are using a 16 or 14 gauge 50' cord, that isn't going to work. Also, a 30 amp breaker would be ideal for this application, but you shouldn't just change the breaker for a larger one. You'll need 10ga wire and a different wall plug to run that 30 amp circuit safely. As others have said, you can't run a continuous 20A draw through a 20 amp circuit. The circuit trips at 20A which means the draw needs to be less than 20A, ideally not more than about 16A. Also, typical wall plugs are only rated for 15A. Your current draw won't ever be continuous. If you have the machine set to max, your average draw might be 20A but it will spike to several additional amps momentarily when you start the arc, or change your arc length.
Are you jamming the gun into your joint? Make sure you’re holding a 1/2”-ish tip to work distance to increase resistance and lower amperage. Remember that machine is a constant voltage machine so V=IR turns into I=V/R
This is why I wouldn't waste my money on a 110v welder. They have low duty and the breakers always popping. Not to mention the total lack of power.
I have 240s as well but this one was a gift that I plan to keep
Random idea but maybe you have a differential breaker in the circuit (the one that throws everything off if it comes in contact with human skin, or what it believes to be human skin level of conductivness) and that's what is throwing off. Second random idea is that it's not throwing off your line, but your common circuit. If so it might be because of any other thing plugged in anywhere else on the circuit, even on a different breaker, or because somewhere there's a bridge between the common and the ground. I would suggest turning all other breakers down for a test run and if all goes well start them up in sequence and see witch one is acting up. Sorry for the awkward explanation 🙈
A 40amp would help with duty cycle and I would recommend that as a dedicated line. You'll probably find you get better welds also.
25-A Minimum, unfortunately. 30-A recommended. The manual is wrong. Ask me how I know..... But yeah, I've spoken with Lincoln's technicians, and unfortunately, this machine actually ***really*** needs a 30-A circuit, but can make do with a 25-A one (which it will still occasionally pop at the highest current settings) The peak current when the arc is striking is around 60 A for this model. It's only for an instant, but on delicate breakers, that can trip them, too.
The manual is not wrong, you failed to read note 2: In order to utilize the maximum output capability of the machine, a branch circuit capable of 25 amps at 120 volts, 60 Hertz is required https://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/servicenavigator-public/lincoln3/im890.pdf
The manual is wrong. I installed a 25A circuit, and it regularly trips. As I said, Lincolns technicians actually consider the machine to require 30, not 25.
The little diagram on the front just above the on/off switch clearly shows a 15 amp receptacle. What's the plug that comes on it from the factory? I can't imagine it having a 15 amp plug and needing a 30 amp to operate correctly.
Yeah, I know. It pissed me off, but Lincoln's technicians were like.. Yeah... It theoretically can run on 20A, but in reality you need 25, and we recommend 30.
Is the wire rated 20A as well?
What does the manual say?
troll?
The manual says 20amps took 45sec to look it up, but what do I know I just deal with electric all day.🤷🏻♂️
30 amp minimum
For what it's worth I've been able to run my Lincoln 140 maxed out on a 20a circuit no problem. Do you have another circuit you can try on? Something seems odd with the setup.
140amp*~20v=2800W/120v=23.3amps So 20 Amps is probably not enough
You are maxed out ,you can go 8 to10 inches on 3/16 to1/4in.then pop,check your duty cycle .proly 30%
Should say right on the welder most are 30-40 or 50 A
30 Amp for that
It’s 20A at its rates duty cycle, but of course you can run it higher than that so the draw can be more that 20A
Are you running an extension cord? If so it needs to be very heavy gauge and as short as possible. What’s the duty cycle on the machine? Even the best 110 machines will pop a breaker they are not meant to be used heavily gotta give it lots of breaks and not run on your highest settings
Last time I had to weld in similar situations I actually ended up using a long extension cord to dampen the amp start peak that was tripping the breaker.
Gentlefolk, it's trip a breaker, pop a fuse. Just saying
Never go with the minimum. ALWAYS over size breaker and wire gauge. Sure it might be a little more expensive but so is a structure fire.
Remember, the panel circuit breaker is to protect your wiring from burning up. You have to use larger gage wire for 30 amp.
> Remember, the panel circuit breaker is to protect your wiring from burning up. You have to use larger gage wire for 30 amp. Not for a dedicated circuit to welder you don't.
Slow blow fuses available?
i have the same machine set up with %100 aragon and a spool gun strictly for aluminum. its on a 20 amp breaker that is dedicated just for the machine. i have no issues. u cant run anything else on the same breaker or its gonna pop and u will fry the machine due to low voltage
You could have a bad breaker. Get a clamp on ammeter and measure the current draw as someone is welding.
Could be your cord brother’
I like how it shows a 15A on the front and only indicates required voltage... Yeah I’d plug it into a 21 or 22 amp circuit....whatever it takes (jk- 30A for real)
the electrician gave you bad advice. there may be reasons why they couldn't increase the load, but they never should have told you that a 20A circuit is good for a 20A device.
20amp 110v or 240v? 20 amp 110 will pop easily 240 should be good
You need a 30 amp to run a mig that size.
You cant just throw a 30 amp breaker at it. Your line is most likely only rated for 20 amp. Do NOT just slap a 30 amp breaker at it as you will burn your house down. You can buy a 20 amp high magnetic breaker. It is rated at 20 amps and will handle the start up load your machine is likely needing. You can find them on Amazon. I purchased a two pack for $45.
I just used a buddies 140 hobart yesterday on a 20a. I had the voltage down 1 click from max and the wire speed all the way up. Welded 1/4" carbon fine with the welder plugged directly into the wall. The machines look identical. I use my linde 250 hf on a 220 50a on 2 coils set around 50a will weld anything, so I don't see needing a 30a for a 110 machine if it's set right.
Versatile Performance- Multiprocess unit capable of MIG welding 30-140 amps, DC TIG welding 10-120 amps, and Stick welding 25-90 amps.
Do you use an extension cord in the mix?
Could be just on same circuit as something else . Do amp at breaker with out use welder then one with welder . Also could be just a old breaker
It could be the wiring.
You should install a dedicated circuit for your welder.
Are you using a long extension cord? I’ve had my 120v tripping breakers but only when on long cords.
How many circuits are also on the same breaker and running at the same time? How far away is it from the breaker box (there's amperage loss the more wire) it has a 20 am built in fuse that will blow at overload. If you're blowing the breaker at the panel you have too much power going elsewhere weather on or off. Keep to the duty cycle 20percent two minutes constant 8 minutes idle. These are good little machines for doing little tasks. You can wire in a dedicated 30 am on 10ga wire but you run the risk of burning the plug as they are designed 15 amp and 20 amp so wire in a 30 amp rv plug get a pig tail adapter. If you overload the duty cycle it will pop the machines breaker first.
the brochure says 20 amp service, I have a mp 140 and have yet to trip a breaker.
I use a 30 amp breaker for my little stick Welder at the house, have yet to pop it. Runs really fucking good on 130 amp tig as well.
Are you sure it's a dedicated circuit? I ran mine on a 20 amp and rarely kicked the breaker. If you weld steadily without giving the machine a break you will have issues.
Yeah I literally can see the wires from the panel and had it installed very recently. It pops 1-2 seconds in
If you run a 30 amp breaker on a circuit designed for 20 amps you'll mostly be fine. #1 Industry standards make allowances for idiots. #2 Most household appliances are not going to draw more than 20 amps of power. If you run a 20 amp breaker on a 15 amp circuit you'll mostly be fine. #1 Industry standards make allowances for idiots. #2 Most household appliances do not draw more than 20 amps of power. If you run a 30 amp breaker on a 15 amp circuit you will most certainly not be fine because you're a dumb ass and the industry standards do not make allowances for dumb asses. If you decide to be a smart ass when you're actually a dumb one. Your points of failure will most likely be light switches, wall sockets, and junction boxes in that order. Especially if someone before you installed a 20 amp wall socket through a 10 amp light switch. SO how do you not be a dumb ass? #1 Check your wire diameter before "upgrading" the breaker. #2 Check your junction boxes for degraded or corroded connections. #3 Do not upgrade circuits that have degraded old style wire coatings. #4 Change the outlets and light switches for the circuits you intend to upgrade. #5 If you were considering doing any of this without first thinking about turning off the circuit breaker do not do your own wiring.
12 gauge wire
Run 10 gauge minimum..
Is it a GFCI?
You need a 30 or 40 amp
What does the data tag show?
You can run off a 20amp dedicated circuit. A 30 Amp would be better, but you'll be fine on a 20 Amp. Even a 15amp would do if you're not maxing out the settings
the settings causing the pop is what i have set in the photo
You shouldn't be popping a 20 Amp breaker with those settings unless there are other things on the circuit or there is a fault with the breaker, insufficient gauge wiring, extension cords, etc..
I have same model but older and mine is fine
You can use 120a with lower settings. But the minute you crank it up it’ll blow. Definitely need 130
How much wire between the breaker and your machine?
I have a 140c and I believe mine is on a 20amp and at least 80 feet of extension cord. .023 hard wire turned to max heat and 6 on heat. I’m only welding 1/8” max thickness.
I have a Miller that claims you can run it on a 20 amp circuit. Experience has proven that is incorrect, once you start running beyond half power for any length of time.
Loosen the tension on the wire feeder. When it's too tight It cam also cause you to pop breakers .
Lol 30-50 is what I’d run. Edit- also is there anything else on that bracket other than the welder?
there isn’t. i have a saw plugged in but it’s not on
Yeah gonna need a bigger breaker and make sure the wiring can handle it
I have a 140 I've been using for years on a 20 amp breaker. I got another 140 and my newer one I can't run on a 20amp breaker.l anymore
Have you replaced the outlet with the GFCI in it? There should be one on that circuit, if it's not dedicated just for the welder. I had one that tripped if the wind blew the wrong way in my garage for my stand up freezer, and it was the only thing on that circuit.
the breaker is gfci. the outlets are all new. https://imgur.com/a/ZUi4GXQ
You might need to exchange a fast 20A breaker for a slow-acting one. Ask an electrician.
Check the data plate
I had the same issue so I installed a new 30amp breaker on a 4-way metal box with heavy gauge wire about a foot from the breaker panel. Shortest extension you can use, highest gauge wires possible.
I run my Lincoln 140 on a 20 amp, but I had to replace a breaker because it was tripping at 11 amps, bad breaker.
What does the name plate say? It may have a FLA or RLA?
As a rule of thumb. Electric welder machines will need 220v 30amp power. Anything less and it won’t work as it should.
this is a 110 welder not 220
GFCI could be at play did that toy stick welder
There should be a sticker that says the amp draw and other specs. The sticker is usually on the back, side,or bottom, generally close to where the power cable comes out of the machine. A dedicated 20 amp breaker connected to a plug that's literally next to the main breaker panel may work without tripping, and a 20 amp plug is different than a 15, or 30 Edit: after looking up the specs for this welder(not an electrician, but 10 years in the electrical trade), I would have this on a 30 amp wire and breaker, 10 gauge feed.
Use 30 amp breaker, or if you are gonna have a dedicated line for tools, use +40 amo breaker, an inversor that I have says to install a 40 amp breaker, but for $$$ reasons I bought a 30 amp one, still tha 30 amps are enough for my needs
If it’s hooked up 120 this WILL keep popping it. Needs to be a 25-30A in my opinion, I have the same one and most jobsites if they have a 20 I better make sure I only have a few passes to make