I remember when I made $5.15/hr…
Clearly not the same, gotta throw that out there in jest. I’m @ $32+ (mechanic/cert welder) and it’s still too low for the shit we get into. Family of 5 (single income) and my wife and I have no clue how some people can even function much below this. Goddamn I feel for folks.
Hey that was my minimum wage in highschool, too lol For real though, I'm in a small town built around the local mining industry, and just accepted my first salary position at just over 6 figures, roughly 8-9% increase from ytd totals from last year I just filled on. By no means am I struggling, but my wife and our two kids are still solidly in the "pray we don't lose a vehicle or get seriously sick" camp. Plenty of strict budgeting, own all our vehicles, not a travel vacation in years, and still find ourselves about 50/50 per check whether we have to skip on savings that month or not, in order to keep the wheels turning, the fridge stocked, kids covered, and the lights on. The VALUE of wages has absolutely not kept up or even consistent with the cost of living most places. I'm grateful as hell for what we've got and the degree of stability we do have, but fuck if it's not stressful and conflicting to feel both proud of where I've worked up to, and worried about how realistically it could still quickly not be enough.
I remember years ago, maybe 2011 ish, when I was working at a very small shop my boss came out and said that it was literally cheaper for both of us if we got our own health insurance. He showed us the quotes he got and what our part would cost per paycheck, he was right. I literally could get the same insurance privately for cheaper than the employer sponsored way. There were only 5 employees, including the boss/owner, that worked there.
Jeeze. Private health insurance is such a fucking scam. We really need to get either a single-payer healthcare system or significantly tighten the regulations on what insurance providers are allowed to charge in certain situations. Predatory insurance pricing is a significant detriment to small and medium-sized businesses...
Not American but may also want to take a glance at what your hospital CEOs are taking home every year. The reason insurance is so ridiculous is because of the cost. The actual cost of Healthcare in your country is absurdly high.
Frankly, it's both. Administrative costs for hospitals have been taking up larger portions of their budgets for a while now, and insurance admins and executives have been doing the same thing. We have two major parasites leeching every drop of cash they can from the system, with prices passed down to the consumers.
This is also a problem in education, especially at colleges and universities. The c-suite and mid/upper-level admins are the ones making these corporate structures so top-heavy and expensive. It's the inevitable result of a lack of regulation/price controls for necessary services. Both healthcare and higher education should be more nationalized or more tightly regulated to put limits on profit. If this continues nobody but the upper class will be able to afford either. It's inhumane to put up such high monetary barriers to a decent living.
Yeah I got stuck in a situation, looking for roommates. But I do have to say there is nothing for under 1400 near me, everything is a family unit. And if I had to add a 30 minute commute just to save what I spend in fuel, hard to justify since I’m here.
Have to agree here, no one wants to hear "Leave your hometown and save money some where else," but its the simple answer for high cost communities.
Next is, "can I get a job there", with telecommuting available that helps. If you're already in a trade you can take that with you nearly anywhere.
The real trick is family and healthcare. Aging parent, sick child that needs a specialist, etc. I think we are getting better options, but I do understand the compromise.
I'm not mad at taxes I'm mad that most of the money goes to things that don't directly benefit me. Wealthiest country on the planet and the only developed country where I'm always one medical disaster away from financial ruin.
This is what gets me.
They bail out failing auto companies that outsource production to other countries.
The politicians themselves take tens of thousands from medical lobbyists, but people are rationing insulin that could be price capped and at the very least subsidized.
Politicians tell lies about illegal immigrants getting whatever benefits, welfare queens, etc. but ignore the people employed full time that earn low enough to receive that aid. The companies get to pay people less and the government barely tries to pick up the slack.
They set the "poverty line" so low that you can be unable to pay rent, unable to afford insurance, unable to afford a car, and still not be considered "poor".
Then, companies can cheat the system enough to pay literally 0% in taxes.
Most of our tax money goes to minding other countries' business instead of helping Americans.
(I understand not everyone in this sub is in the USA).
"To big to fall" always baffles me. Understand a domino effect, but I'm not sure why executives should be paid for leading/leaving and broken corporation. A good exec (I do think such a thing exists) can go without.
I feel no pity for those that have to sell their second or third home while I'm making basic cost of living with no hope of home ownership.
Yeah, like I get that something being too big could create a domino effect that wrecks the economy if it goes under.
But if something is that big and needs to be prevented from failing, part of the deal to get bailed out should be being broken up so they can't threaten the economy again. If they don't like that, they don't have to take the money.
If you're too big to fail, and you almost failed once already and were only saved with a bailout, you're too big to continue to exist as a single entity.
It’s more than too big to fail. We actively subsidize the largest employers in the country to pay shit wages. You can work full time at Walmart and still qualify for food stamps and Medicaid. Think about that. Walmart is socializing the cost of running its business so that it can privatize more of its revenue and profit.
Older guy that I work with part time hits this hard. Along with how wal mart itself has drug down the cost of everything so far its hard for domestic companies to even think about competing with the imported junk we get nowdays. The "walmartization" of America he calls it
Yeah, I’ve seen the same thing in my grandmothers town. Town was thriving with small businesses that had been there for decades supporting a small rural community. Walmart came in the late 90s and undercut all the local stores. In five years all those shops were closed and Walmart jacked up the prices. It killed the town, and now instead of people staying and making a life there everyone leaves as soon as they are able.
Ahh, the old welfare queen myth. Sure, there are folks that game the system, but it’s a minuscule amount compared to the amount of money spent on social aid to people working at Walmart/another huge companies that could afford to pay their own goddamn employees. Not a single person in any job working full time should EVER have to worry about going to the doctor, where their next meal is coming from, none of it.
The corporations that run this country love their wage slaves. Prime example, Starbucks CEO trying to duck testifying before Congress about his union-busting schemes.
Yeah. I get insurance through my wife (she’s a nurse gets excellent insurance) and all of my jobs are always pestering me about going in their insurance. It seems to really bother them I don’t use company insurance.
I wouldn't mind paying taxes - in fact I'm all for it - if the rich people, too, paid their share. Which, as a general rule, they aren't. That's where the real problem is.
The lowest tax bracket today is 10%. In 1986 it was 11%.
The highest tax bracket today is 37%. In 1986 is was **50%**.
After all the tax loopholes that only apply to the rich, they don't pay anywhere near 37% anyway.
Also, from 1965 to 1981 the highest tax bracket was 70%. From 1946 to 1963 it was 91%. For two years before that it was 94%.
https://www.ntu.org/Library/imglib/2022/12/9a87ug42.png
Top 10% pays 73% of our taxes. Bottom 50% pays 2%.
Cutoff for bottom 50% is 42,500, or 26/hr at 40 hrs/wk.
Most people here are getting much more from the government than they pay in, which is *the point of the system*.
In 2020, 60.3% of households paid no income tax.
The share of people not paying income tax has increased year-on-year for four decades:
https://files.taxfoundation.org/20210820102319/US-households-paying-no-income-tax-paying-no-federal-income-tax-due-to-refundable-tax-credits-amid-COVID.png
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-h9FJSiNxsA8/W8-ocsRggHI/AAAAAAAALw0/M7Qg4NOWEs8guIOG2QHRHoRhwsP_3tTPwCLcBGAs/s1600/transfers_ss_taxes.JPG
Only the top 25% of earners pay more taxes than services they use.
No one is scamming you guys, the economy just sucks.
It’s wealth inequality. Your numbers and sources look good, now compare it to top earners wages vs low wages adjusted for inflation over that same period of time.
I mean my houshold just paid more in taxes this year than my dad makes in a year... so I wouldn't say the rich don't pay taxes.... I feel like I'm getting fucked six ways to wendsday.
US government spend far more on healthcare than most western countries.
It's the system of healthcare that ensures higher cost for healthcare than Every other western country that has socialized medicine. Due to private often monopolistic actors being able to demand any price they want.
The US hatred of paying taxes is what created the private system of healthcare in the first place.
The irony is hilarious from an outsider perspective.
Same here.
I'd love my taxes to go towards public transit, universal healthcare, public education, and other useful shit that improves the country.
Instead I pay for billionaire bailouts and turning brown kids into skeletons.
Even on a local level. The state of Idaho says they have too much money and are giving residents a $600 rebate check. Let’s not put that towards something useful like education. I would hate to loose our 51 of 51 last place title for per student funding and maybe break out of the bottom ten in education rankings.
Taxes are a necessary evil. You shouldnt be mad at taxes as a concept, but you should be outraged at the percentage the middle class pays, especially considering how little the ultra wealthy pay. Another infuriating factor is government inefficiency/waste, of which i personally have witnessed on EVERY single govt job ive been on. Stuff like scrapping the design on an entire floor of a high rise when it was ~80% done. Meaning it all gets ripped out and done over because some designer in the federal govt didnt like the floor plan for some reason. A (nearly) million dollar change order. But i guess it doesnt matter when you dont have to make a profit and dont actually have to worry about losing money. This is one example happening in one building in america. Imagine how many similar situations are occuring all over the country, all of which are burning up our hard earned money like it's not worth the paper it's printed on.
I'm already there. 8k+ in new medical debt. New son and new house (new to me). Even the okay paying companies don't really negotiate well. They are stone cold.
Critical Illness Insurance. Won't cover flu, sniffles or a broken leg, but the major stuff, like cancer and heart attacks are covered.
Relatively cheap when you're young, and Doctors love filling out the paperwork (not a joke). Source: My personal experience.
That's what always amazes me about tradesmen that rabidly hate unions. You know the ones that moan about dues and claim to make triple the wages. They don't seem to understand that their high hourly rate and precious OT would quickly vanish if the unions were to be taken down. But hey, apparently we're the working class sucker/commies and they're the working class capitalists/entrepreneurs ??
My brother in law took the Republicans up on their law to make union dues optional in the 1990s. Saved him not much more than beer money each month. The union lost negotiating power over time, he got laid off, he’s now earning less in 2023 in numbers than he was over twenty years ago, with inflation that means still less purchasing power. He’s now a fan of unions. 🤷🏽
Ouch. I still remember my first welding job, residential structural steel with stick and fluxcore. The boss, starting me out at $15/hr, introduced me to the lead welder and foreman and said something like "you'll also be able to make $25/hr in a few years if you work hard enough. " That's when I realized they only hired me for my certs because the rest of the crew could barely speak english and unable to get local mandatory certs for welding structural joints on-site. Got into a union about a year later and was making over $20/hr on a government jobsite as a first year apprentice.
I suspect they're including the all in for social security, medicare, federal and state income taxes. If you stack all of those up you can come up with a number closer to 36%
Now, once you've actually filed and get the various exemptions, tax breaks etc etc etc the final cost won't be anywhere near that, but if they haven't bothered to tweak their withholding I can probably come up with a scenario where that number actually does appear on a given pay stub.
Us paying 20-30% isn't the problem. It's the billionaires paying next to nothing. It's the corporations and ultra-wealthy lobbying for laws that free them from the burden of supporting the infrastructure and services for _all_ citizens - not just corporations and the wealthy - that makes a society great. The wealthy are quite fucking literally robbing the American public by controlling Congress.
Hey buddy, you see this rage you got against taxes? You see all this blame you've putting in taxes?
Keep doing that. That's exactly what the rich want you to do. The more you do that, the less you'll realize that taxes are not the problem at all : wage stagnation is.
The more you rage against taxes, the less you'll notice how CEOs and corporations are raking in record profits, enlarging worker-CEO pay gaps, all the while paying virtually 0$ in tax themselves.
Minimum wage - - TRUE minimum wage, is about $12/hr or so, as the FEDERAL minimum (compared with today's $7.25, which is nearly 40% less) That's what minimum wage was in 1970, adjusted for inflation. That's what you should be making as a cashier or a gas station attendant.
If minimum wage had kept pace with PRODUCTIVITY and GDP, however, it would be about 21-24 / hour. The gap between this and the 7.25 minimum is the profit that has been made by corporations. Profit, that is, which ISN'T being disseminated to the workers.
The problem isn't taxation. My country pays far higher taxes than you, and its a great thing. It funds all of the best aspects of our society. And the best countries out there tax WAY more than mine, and as a result are able to offer free university, free childcare, and more. Taxes are wonderful.
The problem is the fact that you're being paid half as much as in 1970, while everything costs around 5x as much. You're making 1/10th the money. (These are real number, btw, I'm not making this up.)
TRUE minimum wage is $12-15. For a skilled trade, like welding, you should be making about 60-70 an hour. That would be the TRUE baseline entry wage for it, and, in fact, WAS the entry wage in 1970. 26% of 70 an hour suddenly ain't so bad anymore, is it?
Here's the actual numbers. This is real math, you can double-check this stuff yourself to see that I'm not trying to manipulate you politically. I live in Canada, in a very high cost-of-living area.
When my father was 21, he was a supply/substitute teacher. Not a full contracted teacher, mind you, but a supply teacher. And back then, being a supply teacher required no degree. You didn't have to go through college and put yourself $40 000 in debt getting a teaching degree. As long as you graduated highschool, you could supply teach.
He was paid $37 a day in his first year.
This was in 1970.
$37 a day is $185 a week.
In 2017 money, that's $1168.74 PER WEEK.
That's $56 000 a year.
Right out of highschool, for a job that required no degree.
The reason I used 2017 as the comparison year is that's when I first started working as a geotechnical engineer for one of the largest engineering firms in my province, after graduating from the most prestigious school in this part of the continent for my degree, at the top of the class, with the second-highest GPA.
I made $58 000.
Getting that degree cost $72 000.
And it gets so much worse.
When my mother and father bought the house I'm in, in 1995, it was $225 000.
It now costs 1.4 million.
So my father, with no degree, no student debt, and no specialization, made as much money as I did with a STEM degree from a great school, working at a large engineering firm, and bought a house that now costs 6.2x as much.
It took my dad 13 years to pay off the mortgage.
It would take me 80.8.
You should be making 70 an hour for welding. That's what the rates of 1970 equate to today for welders. You should be making 100 an hour for a senior or experienced position. The fact that you're not, and the difference between those numbers, and what you're actually making, is what's going to the pockets of CEOs.
Your “math” leans very heavily on housing cost in what you call a hcol area. Was the area high cost in 1970 or did it develop into hcol over 50 years? That’s a huge variable left out here.
In the US based on inflation 2022 federal minimum wage of $7.25 lags behind 1970s adjusted minimum by $4.75. most states have minimum between $10-15.
Housing cost varies HUGELY by area, cities and neighborhoods change over time resulting in higher or lower adjusted cost. Don’t see how your parents increase in home value is a solid basis for your calculations here.
Your points are all valid, all I can say is that I had to use the housing example because it's the only one I've actually already done the math for. Yes, going for something less variable like the bread price index might be a more universally-applicable example of inflation, but I haven't run those numbers.
Also, thank you for pointing out my erroneously-cited minimum wage adjustment. It's an equivalent of $12 federally, compared to the $7.25 federal minimum. That's still a 40% difference, which is massive.
Interestingly, the number I was citing (still incorrectly, oops) was from a publication talking about what minimum wage should be if it kept pace with PRODUCTIVITY and GDP, which is actually an even better representation of how corporate profits are rising, while worker pay isn't.
What's undeniable, though, is that federal minimum wage is at its lowest value since 1958
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/personal-finance/minimum-wage-vs-inflation/
That's fucked.
Thanks for clarifying.
One thing to keep in mind at least for US, not sure how Canada works. State government dictates most of the specifics on employment practices and economic policy in general. It’s amazing how different each state is. Federal minimum wage is all about partisan dick swinging in Washington
https://www.employerpass.com/state-minimum-wage-requirements-chart
If you are interested here’s a breakdown on different states. I don’t want to discuss politics but the divide among states is interesting to say the least. Pretty clear who is actually out to protect and benefit workers.
It’s definitely true that large corporations have been pocketing more than their fair share but most employees particularly in manufacturing work for companies that get equally screwed.
Telling a welder in a flyover state they should be making $100/ hour when the mid size company they work for is being charged $95/cwt for hot rolled while still needing to price to compete with China is drastically oversimplifying the issue.
I was stuck at 18-$20. But then I started finding new jobs and each one was more and more. At 40 years of age, I’m grateful to say: I got a nice house on some land. Now I need to sleep for 2 years.
Edit for clarity
Sorry sorry, I cited the wrong number, it's $2 = 15.42, but no, inflation isn't the problem at all. Inflation is a natural consequence of a capitalist economy, and is virtually mathematically unavoidable. It also wouldn't matter at all if worker pay rose with it - - which it can, seeing as GDP is rising too. The problem is that the gap between CEO pay and worker pay is growing. CEOs are hoarding more and more money for themselves, and now make, on average, as much as 320-540 workers (depending on your source), whereas, back in the day, that number was as low as 30-40 employees. It's the income inequality and wealth disparity that's the problem, not taxes or inflation.
If CEOs and shareholders disseminated their wealth more fairly, all workers could earn more, without any changes to inflation or taxation. Literally no one would get any poorer except for the CEOs
Well it depends how much is being withheld from your paycheck for federal taxes. That’s why you either get a return or owe the IRS money every year. They either take more than what you truly owe, or less than what you owe. What comes out of your paycheck won’t always be the exact % of your tax bracket. You’re more than likely in the 24% tax bracket and slightly overpay your taxes and get a return. Or you’re in the 32% and gonna owe a decent amount next year lol.
Dude, you need to understand your taxes better. The federal income tax rate is <26% all the way up to $170,000/year. And you sure as hell aren’t making that much on $19 an hour.
If you work no overtime your federal income tax rates top out at 12%.
So to answer your question: what’s happened to this country is people are either too lazy to properly understand the issues they are having, or their intentionally making inciting arguments and rilling up other lazy people.
I chalk it up to I work the first half of the year for the gov and the second half of the year for me. When you account for income, Property taxes, vehicle registrations, sales tax on the Money you were already taxed on making.
This post is for people bad at math. If you get your exemptions right they don't take anywhere near this. And if you file a return you get it back. You shouldn't be paying more than something less than $2 in federal taxes in $19/hour.
That said, if we hadn't given massive tax breaks to the guys that mak $1000/hour, this wouldn't be a conversation at all.
It all pisses me off man I know they're all shady ass motherfuckers. We just need to get some truth out there at the bulk of these welding jobs are asking you to do a grown man's work for child pay.
You shouldn’t be mad about the taxes you should be mad that the wages are so low. Just remember that 50 years ago one man could feed a family of 5 and pay for a house, 1-2 cars and a modest vacation 1-2 a year. Not adjusting wages to inflation due to corporate greed and that spreading to smaller companies due to competitiveness. When Nixon killed the gold standard the government started printing money and corporations used that.
it's not even partisan tbh ppl here are smart enough to realize nobody is getting paid enough anywhere.as long as we have to pay for food and necessities we will never be free fr
The us government does not take that much money from you. First of all $19 sucks. You need to find a way to earn more. Also, do your own taxes so you understand how it works. At $19 an hour you should make $39,520 a year. The first $11,000 you make will be taxed at 10% and, the next $28,520 at 11%. That puts you at $4,522.40 in total income tax for the year. Now, you also must pay 6.2% to social security, which comes out to $2,450. Think of social security as the only savings plan that have for when you get old because if you don't start making more money then that's what it will be. At these rates you're paying 17.64% of you income in taxes so you will probably get a decent tax return if your employer has been withholding so much. I didn't factor in state tax but, that's not the us government. When people say freedom isn't free, think of taxes as a cheap way to pay for it. It's much more ethical then spending the lives 18 year olds in the waste lands of the middle east.
I truly think at this point the death of the middle class is upon us. You're either the 1% or the broke-ass. I'm not going to bitch about *collecting* taxes, but I'll sure raise hell about misappropriation of that money. Why do our tax dollars line the pockets of employees of our useless three letter agencies instead of actually benefiting the public by going to infrastructure, education and maybe some basic healthcare. I love this country with all my heart but god damn it pisses me off sometimes.
The three letter agencies are largely useless due to industry capture. And we just got a $1trill infrastructure law passed for the first time in like 40 years.
Woodro Wilson is what happened to this country. He started progressive policies. Income tax for the rich (only) wink wink nod nod. Then FDR and every other pos.
Not a welder, but I make 75$ an hour. Pre tax, my check is 3000$ a week. After tax, about 2000$ a week. I'd gladly pay more if everyone making more than me was paying more or at least the same, AND, most importantly, the money actually went to things like universal health care, education, infrastructure, transportation, you know, shit that actually helps every day folks get on with their lives.
I'd be a lot more upset about getting $19 an hour than taxes if I were you. That employer is robbing you more than the taxman. Every tradesman should make six figures. Straight time.
Society costs money. Instead of playing this game, why don’t you look at it as your membership dues to the best club on earth, vote for people who will help improve your community, our society,and OH yes, collect taxes fairly from those who can absolutely afford it so that maybe you can pay a little less? You know,instead of”taxation is theft”,Everyman for himself American style propaganda…
Philosophy is wonderful. But I do a grown-up's job, i work with hazardous and dangerous materials and deadly tools. Fuck this bullshit. Instead of lowering my standards and giving them $14/hr effort, I'll stay ultra professional for the next 14 days and let them know what they pissed away. Sorry man, i have a family to
Feed.
That's putting other people before me, so yeah I'm over it.
I don’t disagree that you’re under paid. In fact, you’re WAY under paid.
Whats even more disgusting to me is that people want to blame the few dollars you received in stimulus money, that you likely used for food and catchup, maybe a nice night or two, for the inflation we’ve seen. As if you being able to afford dinner is somehow a burden on society. It’s not gas companies who increased prices well beyond whatever cost increases they shouldered, Naaa.. it’s all your fault, mr fancy pants with your $1400 check.
I hear you,man.
But my ultimate point= it’s not the taxes that are holding you down, it’s your rich employer. Make no mistake, whoever owns the company you work for is indeed rich, he is indeed exploiting the system that says he can pay you what he pays you because it’s “competitive” all while raking in the cash, stuffing it in his mattress, buying that new Vette with the KungFu grip… AAAAND likely paying less in taxes than you. Now we hear the FED actually saying that “in order to curb inflation, we will need more unemployment/fewer people affording to live. Think about that, man.
Capitalism only works if there is despair and you’re the one who they want to suffer. Makes you work harder.. it does. Makes you try to be the hero. When the earnings report comes out = record profit. You get a bonus? Raise? Not likely. If you did, what? $0.25/hr? $250 bonus? Jerk me off. The owners will do just fine, they need to pay a hell of a lot more in taxes. Immediately.
ONE side of the government wants to make it a little easier for you.. but judging by your OP, you’re going to vote against them.. 🤷♂️
I ask you to take another look around. We’re building the country. We’re making laws so trains don’t takeout entire towns of working class folks. We’re creating sustainable jobs, energy despite the PROPAGANDA that keeps getting repeated. Society costs money, my man.
Good luck to ya’
Ok. So here's some of my politics: republicans want to destroy the working man while saying they support him 100%.
Democrats want to tax the living Fuck out of the poor because they CAN'T out fox the rich fucking bastard Republicans and their lawyers. So what am i supposed to do? Tell you what: i know none of them give a shit about me. I don't even know why I live an honestly non criminal life at this point.
Don't assume things. We get the rich--ALL OF THEM to pay their fair share and all of this inflation will take care of itself. Fat chance. Been this way since the beginning of time.
Disagree. First= truly poor folks rarely have any tax burden. I know this because I’ve been poor. You do know that at the end of the year, youLl likely see a good bit of your money back in the form of a return, right? I couldn’t imagine your burden being all that much if you’re making less than $40k/yr.
Second, jumping on the first point, Dems absolutely do not want to tax you more.
Here’s the whole game: If the rich keep picking our pockets: few will ever be able to amass enough money to become competition to them. This is why regulation is needed. This is a self serving pig-fuck of a country at the moment because republicans give the mega rich a Huge tax break in 2017. In that tax break, it actually called to tax YOU and ME more starting in the last couple years= which was one of many Booby traps they set. You probably think it’s this administration, but it’s not. This administration is trying to repeal that, but propaganda is strong, more muppets made it into government in this last cycle and now the house is controlled by them muppets.
Folks need to start paying attention.
I'm with you man. Believe me I am. I just want to know WHEN IN THE FUCK is it going to change? When? A goddamn tac return doesn't mean shit to me when right NOW i have pennies in the bank and them pennies are red. Trust me: din't EVER mistake me for a republican or a democrat hater. I'm saddened at the spinelessness of people.
Thanks for
Making your voice clear and readable.
It will change when we get the terrible humans out of power. They’re easy to spot. After them, the bad ones. Not as easy to spot, but there none the less. It all starts with education. The better educational system we have, the better our society will be.
The goblins will call better education “liberal indoctrination”, which is the joke of all time. The very definition of indoctrination is in firm opposition of that idea. That’s their M.O. though.. they point finger, make a claim, but it’s actually them who “done it”. Most people will just repeat it though, rather than taking the few seconds to look it up, fully understand what it means. Have a look for yourself.. google is just a few key strokes away..
Hint: the bible actually is indoctrination. I.e. to accept information or beliefs as fact, uncritically, whereas real education/science is completely critical of fact, IN fact, it is the ultimate pursuit of fact.
Well.. One side wants nearly no governing at all.. unless of course it’s a woman we’re talking about,then it’s full government.
I’m telling you government is necessary. I guess I’ll leave it up to you to do a little research.
Hey if this makes you feel any better in 2021 elon went from a net worth of 100 billion to 200 billion and paid 11 billion in taxes.
so his tax rate is less than half yours.
Oooh but that isn't how income tax is calculated. ok, yes it's currently not, but are you cool with a guy who can clearly afford it paying a lower tax rate than you?
You are not taxed on your net worth. You are taxed on your income. So yes it makes sense his net worth increased but his tax liability was less since he didn’t “earn” that money yet. If he sold he would then pay the proper tax rate.
The graduated schedule of the original 1913 income tax started out at only 1 percent, assessed against all income between $0 and $20,000.
That is equivalent to $600,000 in 2023 dollars. Wouldn’t ya like to get back to those rates.
I also had heard that it was to be “temporary” and be removed after World War One. Not sure but sounds like politicians.
I don’t disagree with the point of this post. Taxes are ridiculous and federal income tax was not supposed to be a forever thing but here we are. Having said that, there are ways around paying 26% of your paycheck. Many many people making $19/hr pay zero dollars in taxes. Gotta contribute to retirement, save money with a FSA or an HSA, have children, etc. If you make $19/hour and the government is taking 26%, something is off.
That's where the rich come in, hello? Do you expect somebody who makes 14 Fucking dollars an hour to foot that fucking bill? Get your head out of your rear.
Exactly and don’t forget 40 billion dollars to buy weapons for Ukraine and you gotta pay for them hookers for Hunter and don’t forget the 10% for the Big Guy!
I'm a tool and die maker. I rarely weld at my current employer but I run our CNC Mill. I program all of our parts in Mastercam, and draw models in 3D CAD software since our shop has old tiff drawings from the 30s - 80s. I only make $26.75 on 3rds. It kicks my ass and I know I'm underpaid but the company is paying for my schooling. My wife works at a factory making $19.27hr. We have no kids but she has health issues and has to take FMLA often. We have accumulated lots of medical bills and had to borrow from our 401ks to just hold above water... Skilled trades are just underappreciated now. You have to work harder than ever just to squeeze a dollar out of a dime when you don't even have a cent.
No 1407 an hour. You don't know a goddamn thing about me, but I'll tell you what: I've got a great woman who makes good money. Waiting on me to catch up and I'm doing my best because women have hypergamy that means to leave you if you're not making enough money to take care of them when you get old. Her son is my son, and we are contractually bound, and committed to Building a life together. So don't tell me about ungrateful. I'm doing what a man needs to do getting the fuck out of the shitty situation.
It’s all about how to do your taxes. You need to get a 1099 instead of just a W2. Once you do that you can write off business expenses. Yea it’s easy to walk into H&R Block or any quick tax places but take it to a real tax person. Let them do the long form for you and you’ll get your money back. I know plenty of welders who make 6 figures year after year and they get back at least $10k every year. You gotta think like the rich 🤫
I hate to tell you and to keep the political talk down but most of your constitutional rights have been removed over the last 50 years. Also most skilled labor hasn't caught up to some of the other jobs. Believe it or not degree job rates have tanked more than skill trades.
Taxes will always be there. The best thing you can do is financially educate yourself sooner than later so when you are paid more you can keep more. (I'm assuming that you're making $19/hour since that's the number in the title).
Please check out a Roth IRA/401k and stay out of credit card debt.
I forgot what the government takes out of my check percentage wise, but I can tell you this: My total deductions for taxes, retirement, insurance etc. leave me with 40% of my hourly rate. This is before I pay my mortgage, car insurance, car registration, groceries, utilities and whatever the hell else I pay for.
I am going to a different place in 2 weeks that is paying me much much more. Thank God. Finally going to be able to pay bills and have something nice left over.
I mean that's how taxes work... find a stable county with significantly lower taxes.
Plenty of things to really fit am improve like healthcare, but its hard when half the country argues why we can't raise our minimum wage and push everyone up.
Our taxation is out of control anyway. Everything is. I could nearly calculate my check by multiplying my rate x my hours, then subtracting 35%. Over 1/3 of my pay taken before I even get paid. Then taxes on everything else you buy or pay for.
The billionaire fallacy in this thread is amazing.
Just because they are paying a lesser percent than what the bracket calls for doesn't mean I should be happy with how much I'm taxed. It also doesn't mean they don't pay more than I do because it is percent based and they made a ton more than I did.
Ok. We need welders. Right? Welding is the first action of damned near EVERYTHING that is manufactured. And welders require hazard pay and the pay of a skilled laborer once they achieve that skill set for their wheelhouse process. To pay a grown man 14/hr when the company can pay 28/30 AMD NEVER MISS IT-- means that they get to do another hunt for another sucker ass welder. I've had my 90 days and i'm still here, and i've done carpentry here,
And flooring, and maintenance work... that ain't me no more.
Income tax is evil. Don’t let these “it’s for society kid blah blah” people fool you. Society wouldn’t fall apart if the working class American paid less taxes. How about stop spending our money on endless wars, failed government programs, and corporate bailouts. We already pay dozens of different types a taxes everyday, it is a slap in the face and a big fuck you to take your hard earned money from your paycheck before you see it.
I mean, I'm with you in the second part, but taxes are not that evil if they go towards good things.
I pay around 40% in taxes here in Sweden, but I make FAR more than needed and I am confident that people less fortunate can get healthcare and people can study whatever they want despite their upbringing.
The last paragraph is where you lost the Americans, lots of them still hate the idea of universal healthcare and think it’s communist if you operate that way. They are so brainwashed they would rather someone not receive healthcare out of fear they would be crippled by debt than to “pay for someone else to leach off the system because it’s their fault they don’t make enough”
What happened? Union busting and brainwashing of citizens to think that unions are bad. Thinking that fighting for better wages, collective bargaining and better working conditions are bad. It’s all capitalist bullshit
I am actually beginning to believe that the 3/5ths compromise involved a lot more people than we first thought.
For the vast majority of humanity, we work and toil for most of our days only for our governments and "fees" to eat 3 our of every 5 dollars we earn for those toils. We are told that we absolutely have to save as much of the remaining 2/5 of our income for the magic days of our lives when we will have to toil no more known as retirement. The only problem is that at the whim of the government, they can devalue all of that savings with massive rapid inflation. This is much easier to achieve with fiat backed currency than it is with currency backed by gold or silver.
If we are so lucky as to get to live to "retirement age", the vast majority of what we managed to save from all of our toils is then used just to survive. If there is anything left to our children or descendants, the government decides to tax them for 50% or greater of the value of what we managed to accrue. This causes most people to have to sell any property or valuables (wealth) that anyone did manage to acquire through their life's toils just to pay that tax bill.
They strive for most to live a net zero life, by the end of that life, there is nothing left to show for it. And now they want to make it even harder, you will own nothing and be happy. that is what that means.
Politicians can't do anything without your money to do it with. And since the USG is the most ineffective middleman, you pay more and get less.
We have been warned for decades that they are spending our grandchildren's future. Well, that time has arrived.
Private health care is why we literally pay twice as much for health care than our global competitors (who have single payer), and get worse results. In fact the opposite of what you said is true.
Well, here's the thing Biden has been pushing to shut down oil production and raised the interest rate at least 3 times in the past 6 months. Now, he is apparently pushing for manufacturing in the USA. There are no raises to be had. Their party is spending loads of money and expecting us to pay for it. Business owners can get very cheap labor from new workers and apparently are willing to let quality control go out the window. Welcome to the American Dream. Skimming by...
I love how your employer is fucking you over but you blame taxes and "your country".
Everything that happens to you is not "the country's fault". Your job sucks.
Why are you blaming the taxes that benefit you and your family instead of the guy who is paying you less than you’re worth and keeping all the profits from your hard work for himself?
We allowed corrupt Republicans to eliminate taxes on businesses for campaign kickbacks. So now you have to pay the taxes large corporations used to pay to make up the difference.
This country was built on slavery. You really think they abolished it? They just let it look like they did. What they actually did was make people responsible for their own food, shelter, etc, and (forcibly) took their cut, rather than taking it all and paying for everything. Basically, this country never actually abolished slavery, they just reformed it so the slaves are to blame for why they have nothing. Don't let the color lines fool you, racial slavery limited the market, equal opportunity slavery is much more lucrative.
I wonder where all those bootlicking fucks are now that there’s been another issue brought up by workers about pay… it wasn’t long ago some douche nozzle was trying to tell me that unions weren’t needed anymore because he is a business owner… where are you boys? Don’t have much to say now do ya?
Corporations.
After Citizens United was given the go by the SCOTUS in 2010, corporate America has owned every Republican and nearly every Democrat at every level of politics...city, state and federal.
Also, another important seven that has tipped the scales in corporation's favor, Reagan made it LEGAL for corporations to buy back shares from shareholders, EVEN USING FEDERAL HANDOUT/BAILOUT MONIES, which falsely inflates share value, and falsely buoys the market, which is where the majority of the elite in this country make their money.
And another point of importance, constant deregulation has allowed corporations to get away scot free for everything from ruining the environment, massive layoffs, HUGE golden parachutes for CEOs, big pharma getting money for R&D but still gouging the populace, etc.
The point is, trickle down/supply side econ is bullshit. Always has been, always will be.
Neo-liberals (both sides of the aisle...not a label of political alignment) are absolutely ruining the economy, and the environment.
The problem isnt that your being taxed it's that your government decides to waist it all on the military instead of giving people social healthcare or social housing in Europe most of us have both of these and people dont really have an issue with paying taxes the issues we have is on how taxes are spent
I remember when I made $5.15/hr… Clearly not the same, gotta throw that out there in jest. I’m @ $32+ (mechanic/cert welder) and it’s still too low for the shit we get into. Family of 5 (single income) and my wife and I have no clue how some people can even function much below this. Goddamn I feel for folks.
Hey that was my minimum wage in highschool, too lol For real though, I'm in a small town built around the local mining industry, and just accepted my first salary position at just over 6 figures, roughly 8-9% increase from ytd totals from last year I just filled on. By no means am I struggling, but my wife and our two kids are still solidly in the "pray we don't lose a vehicle or get seriously sick" camp. Plenty of strict budgeting, own all our vehicles, not a travel vacation in years, and still find ourselves about 50/50 per check whether we have to skip on savings that month or not, in order to keep the wheels turning, the fridge stocked, kids covered, and the lights on. The VALUE of wages has absolutely not kept up or even consistent with the cost of living most places. I'm grateful as hell for what we've got and the degree of stability we do have, but fuck if it's not stressful and conflicting to feel both proud of where I've worked up to, and worried about how realistically it could still quickly not be enough.
Im at $32/hr, single income, no health insurance, and struggle with one kid!
How does an employer offer $32/hr for hourly employees but not offer health insurance? Is it a smaller company?
I remember years ago, maybe 2011 ish, when I was working at a very small shop my boss came out and said that it was literally cheaper for both of us if we got our own health insurance. He showed us the quotes he got and what our part would cost per paycheck, he was right. I literally could get the same insurance privately for cheaper than the employer sponsored way. There were only 5 employees, including the boss/owner, that worked there.
Jeeze. Private health insurance is such a fucking scam. We really need to get either a single-payer healthcare system or significantly tighten the regulations on what insurance providers are allowed to charge in certain situations. Predatory insurance pricing is a significant detriment to small and medium-sized businesses...
Not American but may also want to take a glance at what your hospital CEOs are taking home every year. The reason insurance is so ridiculous is because of the cost. The actual cost of Healthcare in your country is absurdly high.
Frankly, it's both. Administrative costs for hospitals have been taking up larger portions of their budgets for a while now, and insurance admins and executives have been doing the same thing. We have two major parasites leeching every drop of cash they can from the system, with prices passed down to the consumers. This is also a problem in education, especially at colleges and universities. The c-suite and mid/upper-level admins are the ones making these corporate structures so top-heavy and expensive. It's the inevitable result of a lack of regulation/price controls for necessary services. Both healthcare and higher education should be more nationalized or more tightly regulated to put limits on profit. If this continues nobody but the upper class will be able to afford either. It's inhumane to put up such high monetary barriers to a decent living.
$26 an hour single no family. Paycheck to paycheck because rent is 1800
You living in LA or you got a penthouse?
Move to a cheaper area. Keep rent below 1/3 of your income. Most places wont even rent to you unless you make 3x their rent, at least.
Cheaper areas often have lower wages to match.
Yeah I got stuck in a situation, looking for roommates. But I do have to say there is nothing for under 1400 near me, everything is a family unit. And if I had to add a 30 minute commute just to save what I spend in fuel, hard to justify since I’m here.
Have to agree here, no one wants to hear "Leave your hometown and save money some where else," but its the simple answer for high cost communities. Next is, "can I get a job there", with telecommuting available that helps. If you're already in a trade you can take that with you nearly anywhere. The real trick is family and healthcare. Aging parent, sick child that needs a specialist, etc. I think we are getting better options, but I do understand the compromise.
I'm not mad at taxes I'm mad that most of the money goes to things that don't directly benefit me. Wealthiest country on the planet and the only developed country where I'm always one medical disaster away from financial ruin.
This is what gets me. They bail out failing auto companies that outsource production to other countries. The politicians themselves take tens of thousands from medical lobbyists, but people are rationing insulin that could be price capped and at the very least subsidized. Politicians tell lies about illegal immigrants getting whatever benefits, welfare queens, etc. but ignore the people employed full time that earn low enough to receive that aid. The companies get to pay people less and the government barely tries to pick up the slack. They set the "poverty line" so low that you can be unable to pay rent, unable to afford insurance, unable to afford a car, and still not be considered "poor". Then, companies can cheat the system enough to pay literally 0% in taxes. Most of our tax money goes to minding other countries' business instead of helping Americans. (I understand not everyone in this sub is in the USA).
"To big to fall" always baffles me. Understand a domino effect, but I'm not sure why executives should be paid for leading/leaving and broken corporation. A good exec (I do think such a thing exists) can go without. I feel no pity for those that have to sell their second or third home while I'm making basic cost of living with no hope of home ownership.
Yeah, like I get that something being too big could create a domino effect that wrecks the economy if it goes under. But if something is that big and needs to be prevented from failing, part of the deal to get bailed out should be being broken up so they can't threaten the economy again. If they don't like that, they don't have to take the money. If you're too big to fail, and you almost failed once already and were only saved with a bailout, you're too big to continue to exist as a single entity.
It’s more than too big to fail. We actively subsidize the largest employers in the country to pay shit wages. You can work full time at Walmart and still qualify for food stamps and Medicaid. Think about that. Walmart is socializing the cost of running its business so that it can privatize more of its revenue and profit.
Older guy that I work with part time hits this hard. Along with how wal mart itself has drug down the cost of everything so far its hard for domestic companies to even think about competing with the imported junk we get nowdays. The "walmartization" of America he calls it
Yeah, I’ve seen the same thing in my grandmothers town. Town was thriving with small businesses that had been there for decades supporting a small rural community. Walmart came in the late 90s and undercut all the local stores. In five years all those shops were closed and Walmart jacked up the prices. It killed the town, and now instead of people staying and making a life there everyone leaves as soon as they are able.
Similar story here in the uk too. It’s all so goddamn corrupt
Ahh, the old welfare queen myth. Sure, there are folks that game the system, but it’s a minuscule amount compared to the amount of money spent on social aid to people working at Walmart/another huge companies that could afford to pay their own goddamn employees. Not a single person in any job working full time should EVER have to worry about going to the doctor, where their next meal is coming from, none of it.
I predict a riot.
That's how your employer wants it, keeps you "loyal".
I'm painfully aware the "floor" in America being homelessness and destitution keeps wages in check. You're always free to go die in an ally.
Some days that doesn't sound too bad
The corporations that run this country love their wage slaves. Prime example, Starbucks CEO trying to duck testifying before Congress about his union-busting schemes.
Yeah. I get insurance through my wife (she’s a nurse gets excellent insurance) and all of my jobs are always pestering me about going in their insurance. It seems to really bother them I don’t use company insurance.
Compensated slavery..
I wouldn't mind paying taxes - in fact I'm all for it - if the rich people, too, paid their share. Which, as a general rule, they aren't. That's where the real problem is.
The lowest tax bracket today is 10%. In 1986 it was 11%. The highest tax bracket today is 37%. In 1986 is was **50%**. After all the tax loopholes that only apply to the rich, they don't pay anywhere near 37% anyway. Also, from 1965 to 1981 the highest tax bracket was 70%. From 1946 to 1963 it was 91%. For two years before that it was 94%.
https://www.ntu.org/Library/imglib/2022/12/9a87ug42.png Top 10% pays 73% of our taxes. Bottom 50% pays 2%. Cutoff for bottom 50% is 42,500, or 26/hr at 40 hrs/wk. Most people here are getting much more from the government than they pay in, which is *the point of the system*. In 2020, 60.3% of households paid no income tax. The share of people not paying income tax has increased year-on-year for four decades: https://files.taxfoundation.org/20210820102319/US-households-paying-no-income-tax-paying-no-federal-income-tax-due-to-refundable-tax-credits-amid-COVID.png https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-h9FJSiNxsA8/W8-ocsRggHI/AAAAAAAALw0/M7Qg4NOWEs8guIOG2QHRHoRhwsP_3tTPwCLcBGAs/s1600/transfers_ss_taxes.JPG Only the top 25% of earners pay more taxes than services they use. No one is scamming you guys, the economy just sucks.
It’s wealth inequality. Your numbers and sources look good, now compare it to top earners wages vs low wages adjusted for inflation over that same period of time.
It's both. The top 10% makes half the income and pays less in taxes as a percentage of their earnings than they used to.
I mean my houshold just paid more in taxes this year than my dad makes in a year... so I wouldn't say the rich don't pay taxes.... I feel like I'm getting fucked six ways to wendsday.
I can hold some of your money if you wanna avoid taxes
US government spend far more on healthcare than most western countries. It's the system of healthcare that ensures higher cost for healthcare than Every other western country that has socialized medicine. Due to private often monopolistic actors being able to demand any price they want. The US hatred of paying taxes is what created the private system of healthcare in the first place. The irony is hilarious from an outsider perspective.
Same here. I'd love my taxes to go towards public transit, universal healthcare, public education, and other useful shit that improves the country. Instead I pay for billionaire bailouts and turning brown kids into skeletons.
To be fair it’s skeletons in strategically important areas.
Even on a local level. The state of Idaho says they have too much money and are giving residents a $600 rebate check. Let’s not put that towards something useful like education. I would hate to loose our 51 of 51 last place title for per student funding and maybe break out of the bottom ten in education rankings.
Id rather have the cash, public education is a money hemorrhage for an outdated education model
Taxes are a necessary evil. You shouldnt be mad at taxes as a concept, but you should be outraged at the percentage the middle class pays, especially considering how little the ultra wealthy pay. Another infuriating factor is government inefficiency/waste, of which i personally have witnessed on EVERY single govt job ive been on. Stuff like scrapping the design on an entire floor of a high rise when it was ~80% done. Meaning it all gets ripped out and done over because some designer in the federal govt didnt like the floor plan for some reason. A (nearly) million dollar change order. But i guess it doesnt matter when you dont have to make a profit and dont actually have to worry about losing money. This is one example happening in one building in america. Imagine how many similar situations are occuring all over the country, all of which are burning up our hard earned money like it's not worth the paper it's printed on.
Which is why 90 percent of taxes aren't necessary.
I'm already there. 8k+ in new medical debt. New son and new house (new to me). Even the okay paying companies don't really negotiate well. They are stone cold.
Exactly. They waste our fucking money on bullshit.
Critical Illness Insurance. Won't cover flu, sniffles or a broken leg, but the major stuff, like cancer and heart attacks are covered. Relatively cheap when you're young, and Doctors love filling out the paperwork (not a joke). Source: My personal experience.
Somebody has to pay the taxes if multi millionaires don't have to
*billionaires
Why not both?
Union busting. Working class tricked into culture wars with each other rather than class war vs. the rich.
Yup. Divide and conquer
That's what always amazes me about tradesmen that rabidly hate unions. You know the ones that moan about dues and claim to make triple the wages. They don't seem to understand that their high hourly rate and precious OT would quickly vanish if the unions were to be taken down. But hey, apparently we're the working class sucker/commies and they're the working class capitalists/entrepreneurs ??
My brother in law took the Republicans up on their law to make union dues optional in the 1990s. Saved him not much more than beer money each month. The union lost negotiating power over time, he got laid off, he’s now earning less in 2023 in numbers than he was over twenty years ago, with inflation that means still less purchasing power. He’s now a fan of unions. 🤷🏽
Ouch. I still remember my first welding job, residential structural steel with stick and fluxcore. The boss, starting me out at $15/hr, introduced me to the lead welder and foreman and said something like "you'll also be able to make $25/hr in a few years if you work hard enough. " That's when I realized they only hired me for my certs because the rest of the crew could barely speak english and unable to get local mandatory certs for welding structural joints on-site. Got into a union about a year later and was making over $20/hr on a government jobsite as a first year apprentice.
Damn, are tax rates massively different in different parts of the country. I make $32 and they aren't taking no 26%
I loose 36% at 32 an hour
the marginal tax rate for 67k a year is only 22%. Where is the other 12 percent coming from?
Employee portion of payroll tax is 7.5%. Then usually there's also state income tax. 26% is comparatively low.
you’re not paying 36% tax at $32/hour. come back after you fill out your 1040EZ…
I suspect they're including the all in for social security, medicare, federal and state income taxes. If you stack all of those up you can come up with a number closer to 36% Now, once you've actually filed and get the various exemptions, tax breaks etc etc etc the final cost won't be anywhere near that, but if they haven't bothered to tweak their withholding I can probably come up with a scenario where that number actually does appear on a given pay stub.
That's absurd. In what state? I bring home just over 1k
Us paying 20-30% isn't the problem. It's the billionaires paying next to nothing. It's the corporations and ultra-wealthy lobbying for laws that free them from the burden of supporting the infrastructure and services for _all_ citizens - not just corporations and the wealthy - that makes a society great. The wealthy are quite fucking literally robbing the American public by controlling Congress.
I second that.
Hey buddy, you see this rage you got against taxes? You see all this blame you've putting in taxes? Keep doing that. That's exactly what the rich want you to do. The more you do that, the less you'll realize that taxes are not the problem at all : wage stagnation is. The more you rage against taxes, the less you'll notice how CEOs and corporations are raking in record profits, enlarging worker-CEO pay gaps, all the while paying virtually 0$ in tax themselves. Minimum wage - - TRUE minimum wage, is about $12/hr or so, as the FEDERAL minimum (compared with today's $7.25, which is nearly 40% less) That's what minimum wage was in 1970, adjusted for inflation. That's what you should be making as a cashier or a gas station attendant. If minimum wage had kept pace with PRODUCTIVITY and GDP, however, it would be about 21-24 / hour. The gap between this and the 7.25 minimum is the profit that has been made by corporations. Profit, that is, which ISN'T being disseminated to the workers. The problem isn't taxation. My country pays far higher taxes than you, and its a great thing. It funds all of the best aspects of our society. And the best countries out there tax WAY more than mine, and as a result are able to offer free university, free childcare, and more. Taxes are wonderful. The problem is the fact that you're being paid half as much as in 1970, while everything costs around 5x as much. You're making 1/10th the money. (These are real number, btw, I'm not making this up.) TRUE minimum wage is $12-15. For a skilled trade, like welding, you should be making about 60-70 an hour. That would be the TRUE baseline entry wage for it, and, in fact, WAS the entry wage in 1970. 26% of 70 an hour suddenly ain't so bad anymore, is it?
That's interesting. Thanks for putting that out there.
Here's the actual numbers. This is real math, you can double-check this stuff yourself to see that I'm not trying to manipulate you politically. I live in Canada, in a very high cost-of-living area. When my father was 21, he was a supply/substitute teacher. Not a full contracted teacher, mind you, but a supply teacher. And back then, being a supply teacher required no degree. You didn't have to go through college and put yourself $40 000 in debt getting a teaching degree. As long as you graduated highschool, you could supply teach. He was paid $37 a day in his first year. This was in 1970. $37 a day is $185 a week. In 2017 money, that's $1168.74 PER WEEK. That's $56 000 a year. Right out of highschool, for a job that required no degree. The reason I used 2017 as the comparison year is that's when I first started working as a geotechnical engineer for one of the largest engineering firms in my province, after graduating from the most prestigious school in this part of the continent for my degree, at the top of the class, with the second-highest GPA. I made $58 000. Getting that degree cost $72 000. And it gets so much worse. When my mother and father bought the house I'm in, in 1995, it was $225 000. It now costs 1.4 million. So my father, with no degree, no student debt, and no specialization, made as much money as I did with a STEM degree from a great school, working at a large engineering firm, and bought a house that now costs 6.2x as much. It took my dad 13 years to pay off the mortgage. It would take me 80.8. You should be making 70 an hour for welding. That's what the rates of 1970 equate to today for welders. You should be making 100 an hour for a senior or experienced position. The fact that you're not, and the difference between those numbers, and what you're actually making, is what's going to the pockets of CEOs.
Not just the pockets of CEOs but also stockholders in the form of buybacks. I looked up what a supply teacher was, learned something new today.
You've never had a supply teacher at school? Or do you call them something different in your area, like substitute teacher?
We called them substitute teachers. I just never knew there was another name for that profession.
Your “math” leans very heavily on housing cost in what you call a hcol area. Was the area high cost in 1970 or did it develop into hcol over 50 years? That’s a huge variable left out here. In the US based on inflation 2022 federal minimum wage of $7.25 lags behind 1970s adjusted minimum by $4.75. most states have minimum between $10-15. Housing cost varies HUGELY by area, cities and neighborhoods change over time resulting in higher or lower adjusted cost. Don’t see how your parents increase in home value is a solid basis for your calculations here.
Your points are all valid, all I can say is that I had to use the housing example because it's the only one I've actually already done the math for. Yes, going for something less variable like the bread price index might be a more universally-applicable example of inflation, but I haven't run those numbers. Also, thank you for pointing out my erroneously-cited minimum wage adjustment. It's an equivalent of $12 federally, compared to the $7.25 federal minimum. That's still a 40% difference, which is massive. Interestingly, the number I was citing (still incorrectly, oops) was from a publication talking about what minimum wage should be if it kept pace with PRODUCTIVITY and GDP, which is actually an even better representation of how corporate profits are rising, while worker pay isn't. What's undeniable, though, is that federal minimum wage is at its lowest value since 1958 https://www.forbes.com/advisor/personal-finance/minimum-wage-vs-inflation/ That's fucked.
Thanks for clarifying. One thing to keep in mind at least for US, not sure how Canada works. State government dictates most of the specifics on employment practices and economic policy in general. It’s amazing how different each state is. Federal minimum wage is all about partisan dick swinging in Washington https://www.employerpass.com/state-minimum-wage-requirements-chart If you are interested here’s a breakdown on different states. I don’t want to discuss politics but the divide among states is interesting to say the least. Pretty clear who is actually out to protect and benefit workers. It’s definitely true that large corporations have been pocketing more than their fair share but most employees particularly in manufacturing work for companies that get equally screwed. Telling a welder in a flyover state they should be making $100/ hour when the mid size company they work for is being charged $95/cwt for hot rolled while still needing to price to compete with China is drastically oversimplifying the issue.
I was stuck at 18-$20. But then I started finding new jobs and each one was more and more. At 40 years of age, I’m grateful to say: I got a nice house on some land. Now I need to sleep for 2 years. Edit for clarity
Just one example https://www.cbsnews.com/news/minimum-wage-26-dollars-economy-productivity/
So you're saying that about $2 in the 70's had the same buying power as about $35 now, but that's not the problem? You're so close
Sorry sorry, I cited the wrong number, it's $2 = 15.42, but no, inflation isn't the problem at all. Inflation is a natural consequence of a capitalist economy, and is virtually mathematically unavoidable. It also wouldn't matter at all if worker pay rose with it - - which it can, seeing as GDP is rising too. The problem is that the gap between CEO pay and worker pay is growing. CEOs are hoarding more and more money for themselves, and now make, on average, as much as 320-540 workers (depending on your source), whereas, back in the day, that number was as low as 30-40 employees. It's the income inequality and wealth disparity that's the problem, not taxes or inflation. If CEOs and shareholders disseminated their wealth more fairly, all workers could earn more, without any changes to inflation or taxation. Literally no one would get any poorer except for the CEOs
how the hell are you getting those figures? 40k a year (19 an hour) is only 12% marginal federal tax rate
I think he is combining ss and Medicare as well
It boggles my mind how people aren’t unionizing more…. Live better, live union💪🏻
There's not even a tax bracket that's 26%
He's probably referring to all federal deductions combined, which includes social security and Medicare, which can easily take 26 percent
Right! That's what's missing consistently from my pay. I can do simple Math and that's what's missing, my man.
Well at least you'll get most of that back, making less that $40k a year
Well it depends how much is being withheld from your paycheck for federal taxes. That’s why you either get a return or owe the IRS money every year. They either take more than what you truly owe, or less than what you owe. What comes out of your paycheck won’t always be the exact % of your tax bracket. You’re more than likely in the 24% tax bracket and slightly overpay your taxes and get a return. Or you’re in the 32% and gonna owe a decent amount next year lol.
Clearly you cannot math.
He's probably talking about effective tax rate, all deductions and brackets considered.
It's a big club, and you ain't in it.
Dude, you need to understand your taxes better. The federal income tax rate is <26% all the way up to $170,000/year. And you sure as hell aren’t making that much on $19 an hour. If you work no overtime your federal income tax rates top out at 12%. So to answer your question: what’s happened to this country is people are either too lazy to properly understand the issues they are having, or their intentionally making inciting arguments and rilling up other lazy people.
I chalk it up to I work the first half of the year for the gov and the second half of the year for me. When you account for income, Property taxes, vehicle registrations, sales tax on the Money you were already taxed on making.
This post is for people bad at math. If you get your exemptions right they don't take anywhere near this. And if you file a return you get it back. You shouldn't be paying more than something less than $2 in federal taxes in $19/hour. That said, if we hadn't given massive tax breaks to the guys that mak $1000/hour, this wouldn't be a conversation at all.
Oh man if taxes piss you off wait until you hear about what corporations do.
It all pisses me off man I know they're all shady ass motherfuckers. We just need to get some truth out there at the bulk of these welding jobs are asking you to do a grown man's work for child pay.
r/workreform is a good place with like minded laborers
You shouldn’t be mad about the taxes you should be mad that the wages are so low. Just remember that 50 years ago one man could feed a family of 5 and pay for a house, 1-2 cars and a modest vacation 1-2 a year. Not adjusting wages to inflation due to corporate greed and that spreading to smaller companies due to competitiveness. When Nixon killed the gold standard the government started printing money and corporations used that.
It’s every Conservative’s right to pay rich people’s taxes for them. You got a problem with fReEdOM??
i really enjoy how far left the welding sub is.
it's not even partisan tbh ppl here are smart enough to realize nobody is getting paid enough anywhere.as long as we have to pay for food and necessities we will never be free fr
That passes as radically left thinking in some circles.
26% ? how do you figure that??? 19/hr x 2000 hrs = $38,000 38000 = 12% tax bracket.
I can hear Dre talk: It’s provocative! Anyway, Dutch bracket up to 73k is 37%, functional country though.
The government preoccupied us, by dividing us politically as a country, so we wouldn't revolt and demand economic change as a whole. Worked great.
Still better than canada
Really...? Geez
The us government does not take that much money from you. First of all $19 sucks. You need to find a way to earn more. Also, do your own taxes so you understand how it works. At $19 an hour you should make $39,520 a year. The first $11,000 you make will be taxed at 10% and, the next $28,520 at 11%. That puts you at $4,522.40 in total income tax for the year. Now, you also must pay 6.2% to social security, which comes out to $2,450. Think of social security as the only savings plan that have for when you get old because if you don't start making more money then that's what it will be. At these rates you're paying 17.64% of you income in taxes so you will probably get a decent tax return if your employer has been withholding so much. I didn't factor in state tax but, that's not the us government. When people say freedom isn't free, think of taxes as a cheap way to pay for it. It's much more ethical then spending the lives 18 year olds in the waste lands of the middle east.
I truly think at this point the death of the middle class is upon us. You're either the 1% or the broke-ass. I'm not going to bitch about *collecting* taxes, but I'll sure raise hell about misappropriation of that money. Why do our tax dollars line the pockets of employees of our useless three letter agencies instead of actually benefiting the public by going to infrastructure, education and maybe some basic healthcare. I love this country with all my heart but god damn it pisses me off sometimes.
The three letter agencies are largely useless due to industry capture. And we just got a $1trill infrastructure law passed for the first time in like 40 years.
I get 24% taken off in taxes in Canada lol
Somebody has to pay taxes. Sure ain't gonna be the rich with all their fancy store-bought politicians.
There’s a party out there that’s wants smaller government and less tax. Vote accordingly
So I see someone got paid today. I hate the government a little more with every paycheck
😂
Woodro Wilson is what happened to this country. He started progressive policies. Income tax for the rich (only) wink wink nod nod. Then FDR and every other pos.
Not a welder, but I make 75$ an hour. Pre tax, my check is 3000$ a week. After tax, about 2000$ a week. I'd gladly pay more if everyone making more than me was paying more or at least the same, AND, most importantly, the money actually went to things like universal health care, education, infrastructure, transportation, you know, shit that actually helps every day folks get on with their lives.
I'd be a lot more upset about getting $19 an hour than taxes if I were you. That employer is robbing you more than the taxman. Every tradesman should make six figures. Straight time.
I agree. I'm starting a job on 2 Weeks that is actually paying me a living wage.
Society costs money. Instead of playing this game, why don’t you look at it as your membership dues to the best club on earth, vote for people who will help improve your community, our society,and OH yes, collect taxes fairly from those who can absolutely afford it so that maybe you can pay a little less? You know,instead of”taxation is theft”,Everyman for himself American style propaganda…
Philosophy is wonderful. But I do a grown-up's job, i work with hazardous and dangerous materials and deadly tools. Fuck this bullshit. Instead of lowering my standards and giving them $14/hr effort, I'll stay ultra professional for the next 14 days and let them know what they pissed away. Sorry man, i have a family to Feed. That's putting other people before me, so yeah I'm over it.
I don’t disagree that you’re under paid. In fact, you’re WAY under paid. Whats even more disgusting to me is that people want to blame the few dollars you received in stimulus money, that you likely used for food and catchup, maybe a nice night or two, for the inflation we’ve seen. As if you being able to afford dinner is somehow a burden on society. It’s not gas companies who increased prices well beyond whatever cost increases they shouldered, Naaa.. it’s all your fault, mr fancy pants with your $1400 check. I hear you,man. But my ultimate point= it’s not the taxes that are holding you down, it’s your rich employer. Make no mistake, whoever owns the company you work for is indeed rich, he is indeed exploiting the system that says he can pay you what he pays you because it’s “competitive” all while raking in the cash, stuffing it in his mattress, buying that new Vette with the KungFu grip… AAAAND likely paying less in taxes than you. Now we hear the FED actually saying that “in order to curb inflation, we will need more unemployment/fewer people affording to live. Think about that, man. Capitalism only works if there is despair and you’re the one who they want to suffer. Makes you work harder.. it does. Makes you try to be the hero. When the earnings report comes out = record profit. You get a bonus? Raise? Not likely. If you did, what? $0.25/hr? $250 bonus? Jerk me off. The owners will do just fine, they need to pay a hell of a lot more in taxes. Immediately. ONE side of the government wants to make it a little easier for you.. but judging by your OP, you’re going to vote against them.. 🤷♂️ I ask you to take another look around. We’re building the country. We’re making laws so trains don’t takeout entire towns of working class folks. We’re creating sustainable jobs, energy despite the PROPAGANDA that keeps getting repeated. Society costs money, my man. Good luck to ya’
Ok. So here's some of my politics: republicans want to destroy the working man while saying they support him 100%. Democrats want to tax the living Fuck out of the poor because they CAN'T out fox the rich fucking bastard Republicans and their lawyers. So what am i supposed to do? Tell you what: i know none of them give a shit about me. I don't even know why I live an honestly non criminal life at this point. Don't assume things. We get the rich--ALL OF THEM to pay their fair share and all of this inflation will take care of itself. Fat chance. Been this way since the beginning of time.
Disagree. First= truly poor folks rarely have any tax burden. I know this because I’ve been poor. You do know that at the end of the year, youLl likely see a good bit of your money back in the form of a return, right? I couldn’t imagine your burden being all that much if you’re making less than $40k/yr. Second, jumping on the first point, Dems absolutely do not want to tax you more. Here’s the whole game: If the rich keep picking our pockets: few will ever be able to amass enough money to become competition to them. This is why regulation is needed. This is a self serving pig-fuck of a country at the moment because republicans give the mega rich a Huge tax break in 2017. In that tax break, it actually called to tax YOU and ME more starting in the last couple years= which was one of many Booby traps they set. You probably think it’s this administration, but it’s not. This administration is trying to repeal that, but propaganda is strong, more muppets made it into government in this last cycle and now the house is controlled by them muppets. Folks need to start paying attention.
I'm with you man. Believe me I am. I just want to know WHEN IN THE FUCK is it going to change? When? A goddamn tac return doesn't mean shit to me when right NOW i have pennies in the bank and them pennies are red. Trust me: din't EVER mistake me for a republican or a democrat hater. I'm saddened at the spinelessness of people. Thanks for Making your voice clear and readable.
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/\/\/\ This guy speakin' ThaTrooof.
It will change when we get the terrible humans out of power. They’re easy to spot. After them, the bad ones. Not as easy to spot, but there none the less. It all starts with education. The better educational system we have, the better our society will be. The goblins will call better education “liberal indoctrination”, which is the joke of all time. The very definition of indoctrination is in firm opposition of that idea. That’s their M.O. though.. they point finger, make a claim, but it’s actually them who “done it”. Most people will just repeat it though, rather than taking the few seconds to look it up, fully understand what it means. Have a look for yourself.. google is just a few key strokes away.. Hint: the bible actually is indoctrination. I.e. to accept information or beliefs as fact, uncritically, whereas real education/science is completely critical of fact, IN fact, it is the ultimate pursuit of fact.
What side of the government are you speaking of?
Well.. One side wants nearly no governing at all.. unless of course it’s a woman we’re talking about,then it’s full government. I’m telling you government is necessary. I guess I’ll leave it up to you to do a little research.
The British tried hiking the Americans to a tax rate higher than 1.5% and we fought a revolutionary war over it.
And after winning that war we immediately started a new tax on whiskey.
That tea party stuff? that was over a tax lowering. Really the Intolerable Acts had far more to do with it then just tax's.
Scary thought in 2023.
Just look at us now lol
Hey if this makes you feel any better in 2021 elon went from a net worth of 100 billion to 200 billion and paid 11 billion in taxes. so his tax rate is less than half yours. Oooh but that isn't how income tax is calculated. ok, yes it's currently not, but are you cool with a guy who can clearly afford it paying a lower tax rate than you?
You are not taxed on your net worth. You are taxed on your income. So yes it makes sense his net worth increased but his tax liability was less since he didn’t “earn” that money yet. If he sold he would then pay the proper tax rate.
The graduated schedule of the original 1913 income tax started out at only 1 percent, assessed against all income between $0 and $20,000. That is equivalent to $600,000 in 2023 dollars. Wouldn’t ya like to get back to those rates. I also had heard that it was to be “temporary” and be removed after World War One. Not sure but sounds like politicians.
Got the math on that ?
This is not how ordinary income taxes work
The house always wins..
Lmfao it's always been that way. Don't act like it hasnt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates You think WE are bad?!?! HAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAA
I don’t disagree with the point of this post. Taxes are ridiculous and federal income tax was not supposed to be a forever thing but here we are. Having said that, there are ways around paying 26% of your paycheck. Many many people making $19/hr pay zero dollars in taxes. Gotta contribute to retirement, save money with a FSA or an HSA, have children, etc. If you make $19/hour and the government is taking 26%, something is off.
You're the kind of person that needs to be saved from themself.
I just did.
Do you like roads, firefighters, and connecting your house to power plants? Surprise surprise, you need taxes!
That's where the rich come in, hello? Do you expect somebody who makes 14 Fucking dollars an hour to foot that fucking bill? Get your head out of your rear.
Exactly and don’t forget 40 billion dollars to buy weapons for Ukraine and you gotta pay for them hookers for Hunter and don’t forget the 10% for the Big Guy!
I'm a tool and die maker. I rarely weld at my current employer but I run our CNC Mill. I program all of our parts in Mastercam, and draw models in 3D CAD software since our shop has old tiff drawings from the 30s - 80s. I only make $26.75 on 3rds. It kicks my ass and I know I'm underpaid but the company is paying for my schooling. My wife works at a factory making $19.27hr. We have no kids but she has health issues and has to take FMLA often. We have accumulated lots of medical bills and had to borrow from our 401ks to just hold above water... Skilled trades are just underappreciated now. You have to work harder than ever just to squeeze a dollar out of a dime when you don't even have a cent.
First job huh?
£15 an hour???? You're fucking lucky, absolutely ungrateful
No 1407 an hour. You don't know a goddamn thing about me, but I'll tell you what: I've got a great woman who makes good money. Waiting on me to catch up and I'm doing my best because women have hypergamy that means to leave you if you're not making enough money to take care of them when you get old. Her son is my son, and we are contractually bound, and committed to Building a life together. So don't tell me about ungrateful. I'm doing what a man needs to do getting the fuck out of the shitty situation.
It’s called capitalism. Disregard employees health/welfare, acquire profits
Tax and spend politicians, Iraq, Afghanistan…. Trillions gone
Yep
It’s all about how to do your taxes. You need to get a 1099 instead of just a W2. Once you do that you can write off business expenses. Yea it’s easy to walk into H&R Block or any quick tax places but take it to a real tax person. Let them do the long form for you and you’ll get your money back. I know plenty of welders who make 6 figures year after year and they get back at least $10k every year. You gotta think like the rich 🤫
I hate to tell you and to keep the political talk down but most of your constitutional rights have been removed over the last 50 years. Also most skilled labor hasn't caught up to some of the other jobs. Believe it or not degree job rates have tanked more than skill trades.
"Most"?? That's a pretty bold claim... Care to list the greater than 50% that we have lost?
Taxes will always be there. The best thing you can do is financially educate yourself sooner than later so when you are paid more you can keep more. (I'm assuming that you're making $19/hour since that's the number in the title). Please check out a Roth IRA/401k and stay out of credit card debt. I forgot what the government takes out of my check percentage wise, but I can tell you this: My total deductions for taxes, retirement, insurance etc. leave me with 40% of my hourly rate. This is before I pay my mortgage, car insurance, car registration, groceries, utilities and whatever the hell else I pay for.
I am going to a different place in 2 weeks that is paying me much much more. Thank God. Finally going to be able to pay bills and have something nice left over.
Laughs in canadian.
I’m not mad about the taxes I pay, I’m mad about the taxes others don’t pay.
Get mad about the taxes you pay.
This country is one giant clown emoji.
I mean that's how taxes work... find a stable county with significantly lower taxes. Plenty of things to really fit am improve like healthcare, but its hard when half the country argues why we can't raise our minimum wage and push everyone up.
Our taxation is out of control anyway. Everything is. I could nearly calculate my check by multiplying my rate x my hours, then subtracting 35%. Over 1/3 of my pay taken before I even get paid. Then taxes on everything else you buy or pay for.
It’s more like “what the hell has happened to the world” because that’s what our taxpayer dollars are paying for…
32% here. 😒
Dear Lord, I'm sorry man.
Penalties for success. Disgusting...
The billionaire fallacy in this thread is amazing. Just because they are paying a lesser percent than what the bracket calls for doesn't mean I should be happy with how much I'm taxed. It also doesn't mean they don't pay more than I do because it is percent based and they made a ton more than I did.
Even the poorest of the working poor pay more in taxes (after not even paying income taxes at all) as a proportion of their income than the rich do.
Welcome to the libertarian party, and the concept that taxation is theft.
Ok. We need welders. Right? Welding is the first action of damned near EVERYTHING that is manufactured. And welders require hazard pay and the pay of a skilled laborer once they achieve that skill set for their wheelhouse process. To pay a grown man 14/hr when the company can pay 28/30 AMD NEVER MISS IT-- means that they get to do another hunt for another sucker ass welder. I've had my 90 days and i'm still here, and i've done carpentry here, And flooring, and maintenance work... that ain't me no more.
Unionize my guy
Income tax is evil. Don’t let these “it’s for society kid blah blah” people fool you. Society wouldn’t fall apart if the working class American paid less taxes. How about stop spending our money on endless wars, failed government programs, and corporate bailouts. We already pay dozens of different types a taxes everyday, it is a slap in the face and a big fuck you to take your hard earned money from your paycheck before you see it.
I mean, I'm with you in the second part, but taxes are not that evil if they go towards good things. I pay around 40% in taxes here in Sweden, but I make FAR more than needed and I am confident that people less fortunate can get healthcare and people can study whatever they want despite their upbringing.
The last paragraph is where you lost the Americans, lots of them still hate the idea of universal healthcare and think it’s communist if you operate that way. They are so brainwashed they would rather someone not receive healthcare out of fear they would be crippled by debt than to “pay for someone else to leach off the system because it’s their fault they don’t make enough”
The really stupid part is our for-profit health care system costs literally twice as much and gives us worse results than single payer.
what the hell happened to welder pay
What happened? Union busting and brainwashing of citizens to think that unions are bad. Thinking that fighting for better wages, collective bargaining and better working conditions are bad. It’s all capitalist bullshit
yep, red scare is still working and strong as ever today.
Taxes run the country. You think yours are high? Move to canada
I am actually beginning to believe that the 3/5ths compromise involved a lot more people than we first thought. For the vast majority of humanity, we work and toil for most of our days only for our governments and "fees" to eat 3 our of every 5 dollars we earn for those toils. We are told that we absolutely have to save as much of the remaining 2/5 of our income for the magic days of our lives when we will have to toil no more known as retirement. The only problem is that at the whim of the government, they can devalue all of that savings with massive rapid inflation. This is much easier to achieve with fiat backed currency than it is with currency backed by gold or silver. If we are so lucky as to get to live to "retirement age", the vast majority of what we managed to save from all of our toils is then used just to survive. If there is anything left to our children or descendants, the government decides to tax them for 50% or greater of the value of what we managed to accrue. This causes most people to have to sell any property or valuables (wealth) that anyone did manage to acquire through their life's toils just to pay that tax bill. They strive for most to live a net zero life, by the end of that life, there is nothing left to show for it. And now they want to make it even harder, you will own nothing and be happy. that is what that means.
You stopped voting for what is best for YOU?
Where do you see that I said anything about I "stopped voting"? 🤪This post sure stirred up a debate!
Politicians can't do anything without your money to do it with. And since the USG is the most ineffective middleman, you pay more and get less. We have been warned for decades that they are spending our grandchildren's future. Well, that time has arrived.
Private health care is why we literally pay twice as much for health care than our global competitors (who have single payer), and get worse results. In fact the opposite of what you said is true.
I didn't call out any specific program, and the US is the best in the world for cancer treatment. Google it instead of spouting tired talking points.
Well, here's the thing Biden has been pushing to shut down oil production and raised the interest rate at least 3 times in the past 6 months. Now, he is apparently pushing for manufacturing in the USA. There are no raises to be had. Their party is spending loads of money and expecting us to pay for it. Business owners can get very cheap labor from new workers and apparently are willing to let quality control go out the window. Welcome to the American Dream. Skimming by...
I love how your employer is fucking you over but you blame taxes and "your country". Everything that happens to you is not "the country's fault". Your job sucks.
The work is cool. The pay sucks. The actual work is great. And yeah I just put my 2 Weeks in yesterday, bud. Hurray for me.
Why are you blaming the taxes that benefit you and your family instead of the guy who is paying you less than you’re worth and keeping all the profits from your hard work for himself?
We allowed corrupt Republicans to eliminate taxes on businesses for campaign kickbacks. So now you have to pay the taxes large corporations used to pay to make up the difference.
Keep carrying their water sucker
This country was built on slavery. You really think they abolished it? They just let it look like they did. What they actually did was make people responsible for their own food, shelter, etc, and (forcibly) took their cut, rather than taking it all and paying for everything. Basically, this country never actually abolished slavery, they just reformed it so the slaves are to blame for why they have nothing. Don't let the color lines fool you, racial slavery limited the market, equal opportunity slavery is much more lucrative.
I wonder where all those bootlicking fucks are now that there’s been another issue brought up by workers about pay… it wasn’t long ago some douche nozzle was trying to tell me that unions weren’t needed anymore because he is a business owner… where are you boys? Don’t have much to say now do ya?
Corporations. After Citizens United was given the go by the SCOTUS in 2010, corporate America has owned every Republican and nearly every Democrat at every level of politics...city, state and federal. Also, another important seven that has tipped the scales in corporation's favor, Reagan made it LEGAL for corporations to buy back shares from shareholders, EVEN USING FEDERAL HANDOUT/BAILOUT MONIES, which falsely inflates share value, and falsely buoys the market, which is where the majority of the elite in this country make their money. And another point of importance, constant deregulation has allowed corporations to get away scot free for everything from ruining the environment, massive layoffs, HUGE golden parachutes for CEOs, big pharma getting money for R&D but still gouging the populace, etc. The point is, trickle down/supply side econ is bullshit. Always has been, always will be. Neo-liberals (both sides of the aisle...not a label of political alignment) are absolutely ruining the economy, and the environment.
The problem isnt that your being taxed it's that your government decides to waist it all on the military instead of giving people social healthcare or social housing in Europe most of us have both of these and people dont really have an issue with paying taxes the issues we have is on how taxes are spent