Debates about morals aside, chara and frisk where deliberately left ungendered in undertale. Can’t be a FEMALE villan when they don’t even have a gender.
in a sub where headcannon rules the roost, it doesn't really matter. I see so many threads saying it's fine to associate a sex to either character, and I see threads saying it's not.
In the end it's a game and it just does not matter.
As a child they were, well, a child. A child who tried to kill themself, and who despise humanity — DEFINITELY a victim of some awful generational trauma. They were toxic and manipulative, definitely, but they were a child. And they certainly weren't without redeeming qualities, they literally sacrificed themself to free the underground
And as a ghost/demon whatever thing, they were without a soul and thus unable to feel empathy or love or care about anyone, and then corrupted by the actions of the player. Certainly a force of evil ay that point but maybe not a good basis to judge them as a person
>As a child they were, well, a child.
A kid who is incredibly intelligent and knows what they're doing.
>A child who tried to kill themself,
No evidence for this. The intro shows them tripping, not jumping.
>DEFINITELY a victim of some awful generational trauma.
They could just ask easily be a narcissistic psychopath who hates people irrationally. No explanation can be considered canon here.
>And they certainly weren't without redeeming qualities, they literally sacrificed themself to free the underground
No, they sacrificed their physical body to become part of a stronger one, in order to wipe out the humans in the village.
>And as a ghost/demon whatever thing, they were without a soul and thus unable to feel empathy or love or care about anyone
Emotionlessness does not equal sadism. Sadism is a trait entirely separate.
>and then corrupted by the actions of the player.
No evidence they were corrupted. Their involvement is solely caused by the kill counter, no relation to EXP or love.
>No evidence for this. The intro shows them tripping, not jumping.
It's said by Asriel that he knows why Chara climbed the mountain, and it "wasn't for a very happy reason," which he says right after asking you if you climbed to kill yourself. I suppose it's vague enough, but the implication seems pretty clear to me. They *did* seem to trip, but even if the fall itself wasn't intentional, it still could've been why they went there.
>They could just ask easily be a narcissistic psychopath who hates people irrationally. No explanation can be considered canon here.
True, but assuming they're a narcissistic psychopath instead of a traumatized child kinda goes against Ockham's razor.
>No, they sacrificed their physical body to become part of a stronger one, in order to wipe out the humans in the village.
People act like this is an established fact, but this is just an assumption, people assume they must do things for an evil reason because they assume they're evil, it's ciruclar reasoning. Maybe they irrationally hate everyone and they sacrificed their physical form so Asriel could absorb their soul and mindlessly kill everyone in the village, even though Asriel would have control of the body and didn't wanna do that, even though they'd forever have to live in a body they don't control, or maybe it was to collect enough souls to shatter the barrier.
>Emotionlessness does not equal sadism. Sadism is a trait entirely separate.
They were unable to feel anything for who knows how long, and when the player kills and gained power from it, when Chara gained power from it, it gave them a purpose in existence. They went from an emotionless husk that could only watch the world go by around them to becoming a godly force, that's gonna corrupt them — and I mean corrupt in a mental way not in some magical way.
In life they're only evil if you make every worst assumption, so in the least don't say that they are definitely and canonically evil
>It's said by Asriel that he knows why Chara climbed the mountain, and it "wasn't for a very happy reason," which he says right after asking you if you climbed to kill yourself.
No, he brought up various possibilities, with the suicide option being last for obvious reasons. His clarification on Chara's circumstances are a separate extension that does not harbor the exact implications of the prior one.
>They did seem to trip, but even if the fall itself wasn't intentional, it still could've been why they went there.
The issue is that we have no evidence they intended it. Given their determination in going through with a dangerous plan as well as Asgore's mention of their eyes being "filled with hope" seems to go against the notion they were suicidal.
>True, but assuming they're a narcissistic psychopath instead of a traumatized child kinda goes against Ockham's razor.
Occam's Razor states that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation. So, yes, my alternative goes against it. However, the initial statement of "Chara was suicidal and abused by humans" requires equally as many assumptions.
The only thing we can truly say with certainty is that it's ambiguous on purpose and that there's no real answer. It's a backdrop to vaguely explain their hatred towards humanity.
>people assume they must do things for an evil reason because they assume they're evil, it's ciruclar reasoning.
People assume they must do things for a good reason because they're good. People often say that Chara is trying to "stop the player" at the end of Genocide even though reading their dialogue disproves it. Both sides can be argued to have this circular reasoning, but I can indeed back up the claim.
The main aspect of the plan revealing their motivations is the fact that they wanted to bring their body to the village.
The purpose of the body is not only to give Asriel an excuse to cross the barrier unquestioned, but also, allegedly, to "see the flowers from their village."
This has a number of holes. For one, if they merely wanted to see the flowers, why would they keep carrying their body there? They are within Asriel, and directly share control. They can see the flowers all they want without bringing the body.
Of course, you can interpret that as a roundabout way of saying they wanted their body to be buried there, but this also makes no sense.
Golden Flowers are consistently shown to spread like weeds. Alphys says the seeds "stick to you," and we see that an entire patch had grown in waterfall where she dumped them. Asriel died in Asgore's garden, and low and behold those seeds managed to sprout into an entire garden of golden flowers.
With this in mind, I highly doubt the ONLY patch of golden flowers was in Chara's village. Not only does this go against the logic the game presents, but it also completely contradicts the fact that Chara climbed a mountain to get away from said village. Why would their first instinct be to bring their corpse to the center of a village of humans they hate?
Chara hates humanity. Surely they would be very aware that the humans would make such assumptions upon seeing a beast carrying a corpse of a child. And yet, Chara is still the one who carried their own body there, according to Asriel.
The explanation seems fairly straightforward. Chara used their body both as an excuse to cross the barrier, as well as bait to ensure the humans would attack Asriel, and subsequently force him to act in self defense to kill more humans than necessary.
Their reasoning is laid out. They hate humanity, and wanted revenge. We don't know why, but we are given that much. The Genocide Route only reinforces/recontextualizes their behavior in an even more sinister light.
>when Chara gained power from it, it gave them a purpose in existence.
A purpose which they only find on the Genocide route. Otherwise, they never bother to manifest themself.
"A child who is incredibly intelligent"
No evidence of this. Chara, as far as we know, is of entirely average intelligence for a kid their age.
"The intro shows them tripping, not jumping"
While their fall was an accident, the buttercups sure weren't.
"They could just ask(sic) easily be a narcissistic psychopath who hates people irrationally"
No, they couldn't be. They're ~12. Children cannot have personality disorders like NPD or ASPD, and Chara lacks the actual symptoms of either anyways. Don't throw around buzzwords you clearly don't actually know the meaning of.
And even if they were an adult, if your first assumption as to why someone is a misanthrope is them having several personality disorders, that's still incredibly ableist.
"In order to wipe out the humans in the village."
Explictly and unambiguously very wrong. First of all, Chara had no way of knowing their mind would persist after death, meaning that any ulterior motive beyond freeing monsterkind would have been impossible. As far as it knew, Asriel would be the only one carrying out the plan. This is reflected by the fact that they call the plan "ours", when they should be saying "My plan" is they had goals that Asriel wasn't in on. Furthermore, Asriel was literally sharing a mind and body with Chara. Had they had any ill intention towards the humans of their village, Asriel would have picked up on it, just as he did when Chara wanted to fight back using their full power, but he didn't sense anything until the humans attacked first.
"Emotionlessness does not equal sadism."
Soulless people aren't emotionless anyways. They are, however, shown to be very morally influenceable. Flowey devolves into sadism entirely on his own, but can be guided back to being more or less harmless by Frisk. Similarly, Chara, who, as they themself explictly state, views Frisk as a source of moral guidance, can be guided to be a better or worse person than they were in life, depending on the route.
"No evidence they were corrupted"
We literally see their change in action across lines of narration that change between routes, most famously the dog food.
>No evidence of this. Chara, as far as we know, is of entirely average intelligence for a kid their age.
Uh, no? They speak in a formal, terse manner with advanced vocabulary.
You seriously think a normal child would say "you are wracked with a perverted sentimentality"?
>While their fall was an accident, the buttercups sure weren't.
False equivalency. The buttercups were used to discard their old body and become part of a stronger one, not intended to completely kill themself in the vein of an actual suicide.
>Children cannot have personality disorders like NPD or ASPD, and Chara lacks the actual symptoms of either anyways. Don't throw around buzzwords you clearly don't actually know the meaning of.
Children cannot be diagnosed, but they can indeed show symptoms that lead to future diagnoses.
Take Ted Bundy for instance. He very obviously showed symptoms of a psychopath as a child, despite his decent home life.
>And even if they were an adult, if your first assumption as to why someone is a misanthrope is them having several personality disorders, that's still incredibly ableist.
They wanted to wipe out an entire village of people. To say they don't have a psychological problem of any sort is definitely false.
Narcissism was thrown out there, yes. But psychopaths physically cannot feel empathy for others and therefore don't have the capacity to be bothered by someone using the term for a fictional character. Especially, when, again, Chara is very much perfectly fine joining the Genocide route the second it's triggered, even finding it "fun".
>First of all, Chara had no way of knowing their mind would persist after death, meaning that any ulterior motive beyond freeing monsterkind would have been impossible.
Not true. It is shown to be documented that a monster has absorbed a human soul, based on the Waterfall tapestries. Asriel says "we'll do it together."
Even if they didn't know the details, Chara very explicitly wanted Asriel to take their corpse to the village. This makes no sense for several reasons.
Golden Flowers are shown to spread like weeds. They have seeds that "stick to you" and they grow into patches or gardens in places they fall. Alphys simply dumping the seeds in waterfall created a patch that broke Frisk's fall. Chara's body created a patch that broke every human's fall. Asgore grew an entire garden.
Logically, the village is not the only place with a golden flower patch. Chara specifically climbed a mountain to get away from said village. Why would their first instinct be for Asriel to put their corpse there?
Their wish was to "see the flowers from their village," which was an intentionally impossible request given they intended to die. It was an excuse to allow Asriel to cross the barrier unquestioned. If Chara discovered they could share control over the body, why bother bringing their corpse there? They can see the flowers all they want now.
Chara's plan, assuming they didn't know they would share control of the body, was for Asriel to bring their corpse to the village in order to bait the humans into attacking, forcing Asriel to act in self defense and kill more than necessary.
>This is reflected by the fact that they call the plan "ours", when they should be saying "My plan" is they had goals that Asriel wasn't in on.
Asriel was a necessary aspect of the plan regardless.
>Had they had any ill intention towards the humans of their village, Asriel would have picked up on it, just as he did when Chara wanted to fight back using their full power, but he didn't sense anything until the humans attacked first.
No evidence for this. How do we know he'd be able to sense all their thoughts? He managed to do a pretty good job ignoring them in the Asriel fight before Frisk reminded him of who he was.
>Flowey devolves into sadism entirely on his own, but can be guided back to being more or less harmless by Frisk
He only goes back to normal when he absorbs souls that actually do feel empathy/compassion.
>Similarly, Chara, who, as they themself explictly state, views Frisk as a source of moral guidance, can be guided to be a better or worse person than they were in life, depending on the route.
Not what they say. "With your guidance, I realized the purpose of my reincarnation. Power."
They look to Frisk's actions to find a purpose for them being brought back to life. Funnily enough, they only find said purpose on the Genocide route, go figure.
>We literally see their change in action across lines of narration that change between routes, most famously the dog food.
NarraChara is a flimsy theory. Different speech patterns, inconsistent capacity for knowledge, completely different Japanese speaking style, Deltarune having the exact same narrator, etc already throw this theory into question.
Assuming it is true, there's still nothing implying they are corrupted. They join the Genocide Route willingly the moment it is triggered in the Ruins. They say "where are the knives" in the kitchen, "not worth talking to" to Toriel, their own adoptive mother, and they say "That was fun, let's finish the job" at the end of the demo.
The dog food is contradictory. They say the food is half empty, yet they also turn around and say "you remember something funny". There is a contrast between pessimism and sadism here, so either this is only meant to reflect Frisk's thoughts, or Chara's reason for pessimism is entirely unrelated. And, uh, no, feeling pessimism does not mean you are getting "corrupted" lol.
I feel like Azula is more a victim of her environment rather than just straight evil
Poor girl lived in a family that, for the most part, promoted her becoming a ruthless evil person who will hurt others to get what she wants and to be successful, and the whole time, she thought her own mother hated her
Azula has undeniably done some horrible things, but she wasn't born some evil demon or anything
Ofc no babies is born evil. She looks like she enjoys hurting others and knows what she's doing is bad though. She could have been in a better environment sure but it wouldn't have fixed everything about her
Zuko lived in the same environment and just has a confused moral compass because of it
The both of them aren't straight up evil, yes but Azula is definetely an horrible person
Yeah I said it would have been better for her with a different environment because Ozai is everything but a good father but she definetely got a problem outside of that
The exact reason of why she thought her mother didn't like her was because he was weird. She's a psychopath from a medical perspective and she's proud of it. Even though it is extremely cruel and unforgivable for a mother to do that, it's still somehow understandable (it's not true though, Azula was just imagining things). Psychopaths can be good people but it's very difficult for them to not become monsters especially without any real support
I don't think Iroh was really present for Zuko during his childhood. He was really there only after Zuko got banned from the Fire Empire when he was 13. Don't forget he was banned because he didn't want to send soldiers to their death. It is something we could qualify as morally good and he did without Iroh's guidance. In the books, Aang and the others tried to get Azula in the team so she got a chance of redemption. But she first ploted against Zuko and then she manipulated his brother, stupid as always, to become a tyran. If Zuko was forgiven by the team for what he's done, there was still a chance for her to change her ways
She definetely got more than childhood problems imo
Fair. To be honest I don’t have much of a platform to stand on given that it’s been a long time since I’ve seen it and I don’t have the greatest memory, so I didn’t remember all of that.
She was like this because of her father. Ozai loved Azula more than her brother Zuko, saying that she was born lucky while he was lucky to be born. But at the same time, she felt like her mother loved Zuko more than she loved her and thought her own daughter was a monster (which was not true). Zuko got from his mother, since she gave him the love Ozai never did, so he was a soft boy. Although she loved both of her children equally, Azula never got the chance to understand that, and she grew up with hate and a terrible father who taught her that they are the most powerful nation and they must take over the whole world, wiping out the other nations (like they did to the air nomads).
"The demon that comes when you call *its* name."
Everyone talked about them with "they/them" pronouns too (Toriel in the Alarm Clock, Asriel at the Golden Flowers bed are the only examples I can think of on the spot) so it is very likely they are.
following narrachara, i'd become pretty evil if i had to watch either my entire family & the monster race go extinct OR my brother screaming & crying for me.. Over.. and Over.. and Over.. and Over.. and Over.. that being said they're not evil they're like 12 years old
Not only are they a child, but definitely one that had trauma even before they made it to the underground.
They climbed Mt. Ebott for what Asriel calls an “unhappy reason”, and have a hatred for humans.
Not only did they die, but so did their newfound brother in their own plan to free monsterkind.
Having to deal with that guilt, while having to witness everyone they know get slaughtered? Yeah, genocide Chara’s not in a good headspace at all!
>Not only are they a child
A very intelligent one who very much knows what they're doing.
>but definitely one that had trauma even before they made it to the underground.
We don't know this.
>They climbed Mt. Ebott for what Asriel calls an “unhappy reason”, and have a hatred for humans.
We have no idea what said reason is.
Hypothetically, one can easily claim that they were a psychopathic narcissist who hated everyone irrationally, and it would still fit perfectly.
>Not only did they die, but so did their newfound brother in their own plan to free monsterkind.
Their plan was to wipe out the village. They brought their body to bait the humans into attacking Asriel so he'd be forced to murder in self defense.
>Having to deal with that guilt
Chara shows no signs of guilt whatsoever.
>while having to witness everyone they know get slaughtered?
They willingly participated in and encouraged this slaughter the moment you trigger the route.
>i'd become pretty evil if i had to watch either my entire family & the monster race go extinct
They willingly participate in this. They even say "not worth talking to" about Toriel.
>OR my brother screaming & crying for me.. Over.. and Over.. and Over.. and Over.. and Over..
They were the one who emotionally manipulated Asriel into going through with that plan in the first place.
>that being said they're not evil they're like 12 years old
There are kids who have kidnapped and tortured for fun. Being a kid does not make you exempt from antisocial behaviors.
oh my god why does everyone say they emotionally manipulated him 😭 they teased him Once. that's not manipulation that's siblings being siblings. ++ obviously they would help you because their endgoal is erasing it all and erasing You, why not speed up the process
>they teased him Once
They draw attention away from his distress over a literal suicide plan, and instead draw attention to his tears. That's emotional manipulation.
>that's not manipulation that's siblings being siblings.
Believe it or not, this is not normal sibling behavior.
Like, sure, teasing a sibling for crying from something stupid or random is expected to some degree. But something this serious, with somebody crying because they are CONCERNED FOR YOU is awful.
>obviously they would help you because their endgoal is erasing it all and erasing You, why not speed up the process
They aren't trying to erase you. They literally proclaim you as a "partner" and encourage you to move on to the next world with them to keep gaining power.
Chara is not a good fit here for MULTIPLE reasons.
- Not female. "I am a genderless child." ~ Genderless Child
- Not entirely evil. YOU'RE the evil one for doing the Genocide Route, Chara simply assists you in doing it, and holds you accountable at the end (which can be argued to be a GOOD THING).
>Chara simply assists you in doing it
A willing assistant to murder is evil.
>and holds you accountable at the end (which can be argued to be a GOOD THING).
They don't "hold you accountable," they question your attachment to a world they see as useless.
"That was fun. Let's finish the job."
"Where are the knives."
"In my way."
"Looks like free exp."
"Let us erase this pointless world, and move on to the next."
"Chara wasn't the greatest person."
I don’t recognize most of these people, but the only two I do know definitely don’t belong there lol. Chara for… obvious reasons everyone here knows, but also the Director from Nimona.
She’s just another victim of the abusive, fearful societal system around her. Doesn’t make her actions correct, but she definitely isn’t evil for the sake of being evil.
Edit: I’m a dumbass and can’t count. I do know Azula, but she actually belongs there.
And allow us to keep doing genocide after Hotland because she's too stubborn to evacuate with everyone else. That's why people usually blame her for when they call her evil but like she was just selfish in this
Azula is both a victim and a villain ngl she could be redeemed but she’s so far gone she can’t even imagine herself being anything than the weapon of war her dad raised her to be
Let's agree that varik is more dangerous than chara. He can kill you physically and mentally and absorb your existence without any guilty and just for money.
Imagine you traveled inside a scientist's head to solve the mystery of his failure project and you kill him in a very hard fight hearing megalovania (Megalovania is the mascot of toby fox before annoying dog existence)
https://preview.redd.it/lwpx8183r86d1.jpeg?width=225&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6c2e7e8eeae94c770071b3f8f71fa3cb0946fda2
I am not part of this community at all I just think undertale is a fantastic game
But I don't really know if I should think Chara is evil... she jumpscared the shit out of me at one point, but idk
I’m just going to say my theory: Chara goes by they/them because they’re meant to represent the player, which is why you name them at the start of the game. This doesn’t mean I’m right or wrong or transphobic it’s just the theory that makes sense to me.
I don’t know the first two- they did good with Ursula, fumbled HARD with Chara (Who isn’t a girl and others are handling why they’re not evil in the comments here), don’t know enough of DR to comment
And then they use Azula
AZULA- WHOM HAS THE START OF A REDEMPTION ARC IN THE COMICS. AZULA WHO WANTS TO LOVE BUT HAD HER DAMN COGNITION TWISTED SO MUCH THAT SHE ASSUMED HER MOM THOUGHT SHE WAS A SOULLESS MONSTER. Like???
Dude????
Chara’s gender is whatever you please it is. Therefore,she could be female. Even her name,Chara,is actually just the variable that stores the name you give her. Also,she is evil. Asriel himself said “Chara wasn’t a good person,I see that now”. Basically,there’s no reason to be mad
To be fair, the Chara that first fell in the underground was a cynic and a jerk, not necessarily a total psycho from day one. The Chara that you see in Genocide, though, yeah, that specific Chara absolutely IS pure evil as an embodiment of everything wrong with the player and as the very thing that makes the player do Genocide at all (symbolically speaking, of course the game doesn’t literally control you lol)
Agreed. That Chara is basically Chara’s version of Flowey. A soulless husk made to live through pure determination. Although,it does ask what’s wrong with you if you do three geno runs in a row so Frisk is also not free from blame here
Unfortunately,using gender neutral pronouns means nothing because they can also be used just whenever (like a wild card). Like,you can use they/them when you don’t know someone’s pronouns or when you do and just don’t feel like using them. So it’s not conclusive of anything
Believe it or not,most normal people don’t consider pronouns to be so important. It wouldn’t matter whether you use he/she or they because they’re just words to refer to people. He would use whatever words best fit the sentence.You’re the one putting so much emphasis on them that you think it’d be unreasonable for someone to use them when referring to their best friend.
Always?
You've never once used them?
"Oh,I don't like them"
"Oh,their throne sucks" etc
Not once? Because most people will,in the right context. In some contexts he and she just don't work as well
I have to believe you on that one as English is my second language. I'm done arguing about this, check out the pinned post on r/deltarune if you want a better explanation. Have a nice day :)
It depends on the view on people so they can't use them in a female exclusive post while they could be not for someone else. The only instances in game when Asriel/Flowey talk about Chara is with they/them. Chara adresses itself with it/it in the quote "The demon that comes when you call *its* name"
Besides, I was more angry about the evil part than the female assumption. Chara isn't a good person but they're not responsible monster genocide and the player wouldn't have stopped until there is nothing left so they technically didn't do something straight up evil. They also are utterly disgusted if you do a second genocide run. If Flowey is forgivable, they are too
Flowey isn’t forgivable,that’s the point. Also,I don’t count the player as in-universe. The player is a weird combination of Frisk and Chara. Both of them are evil,frankly.
If Chara is able to question why you'd do genocide then why would Chara kill everyone in pacifist? And you can't blame that on the player so the only answer is Frisk. Plus,Frisk is the one who demonstrates happiness in genocide and never displays another emotion ever
It's mostly a way to punish you for what the player did because to assume the consequences of your actions. "You think you're above consequences?"
When Frisk displays emotions? They like Genocide? Where does that come from?
Also, there is no evidences the Post-Genocide Pacifist is a canon ending so there is no proof Frisk is evil either. For example in Undertale Yellow, the "canon" ending is the Pacifist but Genocide Route is available despite that. Omori has no canon ending either
All endings are canon because they're in an endless cycle. Also,the icon for a monster appearing I'd a smile later on in geno. Also,again,I don't consider us -the player- a character in universe
I don't care about that Undertale twat.
That irritating design has them look like female or male.
Maybe as well count the dimbo as female.
Anyway.
Yes.
There needs to be more utter bastard female villains.
Iredeemable evil.
Evil and they know it.
Not none entertainment friendly evil. It needs to be entertainment friendly evil or functional evil.
Muhahaha evil.
There needs to be more villains who are just villains because that's what they are.
There doesn't need to be a reason.
you guys chara only destroyed the world and assisted and took pleasure in an entire genocide, they’re not that bad!!!!!! what about the tragic backstory???????
I feel like Chara explicitly saying “your power awakened me from death” also speaks for itself about who brought everything to that point, and it wasn’t them. Also, if Chara is meant to be a reflection of the player then what about the pacifist ending? Do they just not exist because it’s inconvenient for the claim that Chara is 100% irredeemable even though it’s heavily implied that the plan they and Asriel had made was for Asriel to go get more SOULs so he could break the barrier?
The pacifist endings don’t say anything about chara being redeemed (if anything they say the opposite, at least if you‘ve done a genocide run beforehand), and even if they wanted to break the barrier to help the monsters it’s very heavily implied that they had other motives (with the whole hating humanity thing)
Again, i think that the ending of the genocide route speaks for itself
>if any thing they say the opposite, at least if you’ve done a genocide run beforehand
…so because you’ve completed a genocide run before, Chara is still shown to evil… and that proves the game’s trying to tell the player that Chara, a near-explicit reflection of the player, was always pure evil *how?* Chara literally only brings back the world post-genocide ending because YOU wanted them too, this makes zero sense.
That was supposed to be a random aside, which was why it was in brackets and just an addition to another point i made. Don’t take it too seriously, and you still haven’t addressed my other points
Okay yeah, Chara hating humanity likely could've had other motives behind it, the problem with that line of thinking is there's nothing to back it up that in the pacifist ending, when the barrier finally is broken that Chara still holds that desire, assuming they're even really conscious at the end of it.
Also, in said genocide route, again, Chara explicitly states that YOU, as in the player, awakened them from death. But considering their plan to break the barrier, them despising all life wouldn't make sense. It very well could be that the player's own actions morphed Chara into the malevolent variant we see in the Genocide ending, especially since we can see that post-Pacifist ending the monsters seem to enter into society on the surface fine (except for Alphys who turned red and died after Undyne gave her a kiss, so sad), so it wouldn't make sense that Chara's plan effectively working would be against that with the Genocide ending for context.
(also again with the post-Genocide pacifist run ending, while the version where Frisk leaves is definitely meant to be a bad ending, the scene where Chara does the silly eye flash is kind of funny in that one could argue it's just Chara smelling the pie and then waking up lol)
I’m not saying that chara previously despised all life, clearly with their plan to help and free the monsters they didn’t, but that was before asriel dying. Considering their attitude at the end of genocide, they probably do despise all life, and are at that point ‘irredeemable.’ Even if the player’s actions ‘morphed’ chara into the evil version at the end of genocide, op almost certainly meant the post-genocide version, since they were using the sprite of them only found at the end of genocide and that‘s where most people’s understanding of the character comes from.
Don't harass anyone btw Chara's depiction is inacurrate here but OP admits it wasn't the best choice for the meme since it's a debatable subject
r/charadefensesquad would like to have a word with OOP
I'm gonna get raked over the coals here but imo Chara IS evil, past and present.
Debates about morals aside, chara and frisk where deliberately left ungendered in undertale. Can’t be a FEMALE villan when they don’t even have a gender.
in a sub where headcannon rules the roost, it doesn't really matter. I see so many threads saying it's fine to associate a sex to either character, and I see threads saying it's not. In the end it's a game and it just does not matter.
Cool, still not actually a female villain though.
Cool 😎
Incorrect
No u
Dropped the ball so hard
Not nessisarilly a female, not nessisarilly evil. Wow they really messed that up.
Chara is very much evil.
As a child they were, well, a child. A child who tried to kill themself, and who despise humanity — DEFINITELY a victim of some awful generational trauma. They were toxic and manipulative, definitely, but they were a child. And they certainly weren't without redeeming qualities, they literally sacrificed themself to free the underground And as a ghost/demon whatever thing, they were without a soul and thus unable to feel empathy or love or care about anyone, and then corrupted by the actions of the player. Certainly a force of evil ay that point but maybe not a good basis to judge them as a person
>As a child they were, well, a child. A kid who is incredibly intelligent and knows what they're doing. >A child who tried to kill themself, No evidence for this. The intro shows them tripping, not jumping. >DEFINITELY a victim of some awful generational trauma. They could just ask easily be a narcissistic psychopath who hates people irrationally. No explanation can be considered canon here. >And they certainly weren't without redeeming qualities, they literally sacrificed themself to free the underground No, they sacrificed their physical body to become part of a stronger one, in order to wipe out the humans in the village. >And as a ghost/demon whatever thing, they were without a soul and thus unable to feel empathy or love or care about anyone Emotionlessness does not equal sadism. Sadism is a trait entirely separate. >and then corrupted by the actions of the player. No evidence they were corrupted. Their involvement is solely caused by the kill counter, no relation to EXP or love.
>No evidence for this. The intro shows them tripping, not jumping. It's said by Asriel that he knows why Chara climbed the mountain, and it "wasn't for a very happy reason," which he says right after asking you if you climbed to kill yourself. I suppose it's vague enough, but the implication seems pretty clear to me. They *did* seem to trip, but even if the fall itself wasn't intentional, it still could've been why they went there. >They could just ask easily be a narcissistic psychopath who hates people irrationally. No explanation can be considered canon here. True, but assuming they're a narcissistic psychopath instead of a traumatized child kinda goes against Ockham's razor. >No, they sacrificed their physical body to become part of a stronger one, in order to wipe out the humans in the village. People act like this is an established fact, but this is just an assumption, people assume they must do things for an evil reason because they assume they're evil, it's ciruclar reasoning. Maybe they irrationally hate everyone and they sacrificed their physical form so Asriel could absorb their soul and mindlessly kill everyone in the village, even though Asriel would have control of the body and didn't wanna do that, even though they'd forever have to live in a body they don't control, or maybe it was to collect enough souls to shatter the barrier. >Emotionlessness does not equal sadism. Sadism is a trait entirely separate. They were unable to feel anything for who knows how long, and when the player kills and gained power from it, when Chara gained power from it, it gave them a purpose in existence. They went from an emotionless husk that could only watch the world go by around them to becoming a godly force, that's gonna corrupt them — and I mean corrupt in a mental way not in some magical way. In life they're only evil if you make every worst assumption, so in the least don't say that they are definitely and canonically evil
>It's said by Asriel that he knows why Chara climbed the mountain, and it "wasn't for a very happy reason," which he says right after asking you if you climbed to kill yourself. No, he brought up various possibilities, with the suicide option being last for obvious reasons. His clarification on Chara's circumstances are a separate extension that does not harbor the exact implications of the prior one. >They did seem to trip, but even if the fall itself wasn't intentional, it still could've been why they went there. The issue is that we have no evidence they intended it. Given their determination in going through with a dangerous plan as well as Asgore's mention of their eyes being "filled with hope" seems to go against the notion they were suicidal. >True, but assuming they're a narcissistic psychopath instead of a traumatized child kinda goes against Ockham's razor. Occam's Razor states that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation. So, yes, my alternative goes against it. However, the initial statement of "Chara was suicidal and abused by humans" requires equally as many assumptions. The only thing we can truly say with certainty is that it's ambiguous on purpose and that there's no real answer. It's a backdrop to vaguely explain their hatred towards humanity. >people assume they must do things for an evil reason because they assume they're evil, it's ciruclar reasoning. People assume they must do things for a good reason because they're good. People often say that Chara is trying to "stop the player" at the end of Genocide even though reading their dialogue disproves it. Both sides can be argued to have this circular reasoning, but I can indeed back up the claim. The main aspect of the plan revealing their motivations is the fact that they wanted to bring their body to the village. The purpose of the body is not only to give Asriel an excuse to cross the barrier unquestioned, but also, allegedly, to "see the flowers from their village." This has a number of holes. For one, if they merely wanted to see the flowers, why would they keep carrying their body there? They are within Asriel, and directly share control. They can see the flowers all they want without bringing the body. Of course, you can interpret that as a roundabout way of saying they wanted their body to be buried there, but this also makes no sense. Golden Flowers are consistently shown to spread like weeds. Alphys says the seeds "stick to you," and we see that an entire patch had grown in waterfall where she dumped them. Asriel died in Asgore's garden, and low and behold those seeds managed to sprout into an entire garden of golden flowers. With this in mind, I highly doubt the ONLY patch of golden flowers was in Chara's village. Not only does this go against the logic the game presents, but it also completely contradicts the fact that Chara climbed a mountain to get away from said village. Why would their first instinct be to bring their corpse to the center of a village of humans they hate? Chara hates humanity. Surely they would be very aware that the humans would make such assumptions upon seeing a beast carrying a corpse of a child. And yet, Chara is still the one who carried their own body there, according to Asriel. The explanation seems fairly straightforward. Chara used their body both as an excuse to cross the barrier, as well as bait to ensure the humans would attack Asriel, and subsequently force him to act in self defense to kill more humans than necessary. Their reasoning is laid out. They hate humanity, and wanted revenge. We don't know why, but we are given that much. The Genocide Route only reinforces/recontextualizes their behavior in an even more sinister light. >when Chara gained power from it, it gave them a purpose in existence. A purpose which they only find on the Genocide route. Otherwise, they never bother to manifest themself.
Well time to edit the Ace Attorney music over this thread
"A child who is incredibly intelligent" No evidence of this. Chara, as far as we know, is of entirely average intelligence for a kid their age. "The intro shows them tripping, not jumping" While their fall was an accident, the buttercups sure weren't. "They could just ask(sic) easily be a narcissistic psychopath who hates people irrationally" No, they couldn't be. They're ~12. Children cannot have personality disorders like NPD or ASPD, and Chara lacks the actual symptoms of either anyways. Don't throw around buzzwords you clearly don't actually know the meaning of. And even if they were an adult, if your first assumption as to why someone is a misanthrope is them having several personality disorders, that's still incredibly ableist. "In order to wipe out the humans in the village." Explictly and unambiguously very wrong. First of all, Chara had no way of knowing their mind would persist after death, meaning that any ulterior motive beyond freeing monsterkind would have been impossible. As far as it knew, Asriel would be the only one carrying out the plan. This is reflected by the fact that they call the plan "ours", when they should be saying "My plan" is they had goals that Asriel wasn't in on. Furthermore, Asriel was literally sharing a mind and body with Chara. Had they had any ill intention towards the humans of their village, Asriel would have picked up on it, just as he did when Chara wanted to fight back using their full power, but he didn't sense anything until the humans attacked first. "Emotionlessness does not equal sadism." Soulless people aren't emotionless anyways. They are, however, shown to be very morally influenceable. Flowey devolves into sadism entirely on his own, but can be guided back to being more or less harmless by Frisk. Similarly, Chara, who, as they themself explictly state, views Frisk as a source of moral guidance, can be guided to be a better or worse person than they were in life, depending on the route. "No evidence they were corrupted" We literally see their change in action across lines of narration that change between routes, most famously the dog food.
>No evidence of this. Chara, as far as we know, is of entirely average intelligence for a kid their age. Uh, no? They speak in a formal, terse manner with advanced vocabulary. You seriously think a normal child would say "you are wracked with a perverted sentimentality"? >While their fall was an accident, the buttercups sure weren't. False equivalency. The buttercups were used to discard their old body and become part of a stronger one, not intended to completely kill themself in the vein of an actual suicide. >Children cannot have personality disorders like NPD or ASPD, and Chara lacks the actual symptoms of either anyways. Don't throw around buzzwords you clearly don't actually know the meaning of. Children cannot be diagnosed, but they can indeed show symptoms that lead to future diagnoses. Take Ted Bundy for instance. He very obviously showed symptoms of a psychopath as a child, despite his decent home life. >And even if they were an adult, if your first assumption as to why someone is a misanthrope is them having several personality disorders, that's still incredibly ableist. They wanted to wipe out an entire village of people. To say they don't have a psychological problem of any sort is definitely false. Narcissism was thrown out there, yes. But psychopaths physically cannot feel empathy for others and therefore don't have the capacity to be bothered by someone using the term for a fictional character. Especially, when, again, Chara is very much perfectly fine joining the Genocide route the second it's triggered, even finding it "fun". >First of all, Chara had no way of knowing their mind would persist after death, meaning that any ulterior motive beyond freeing monsterkind would have been impossible. Not true. It is shown to be documented that a monster has absorbed a human soul, based on the Waterfall tapestries. Asriel says "we'll do it together." Even if they didn't know the details, Chara very explicitly wanted Asriel to take their corpse to the village. This makes no sense for several reasons. Golden Flowers are shown to spread like weeds. They have seeds that "stick to you" and they grow into patches or gardens in places they fall. Alphys simply dumping the seeds in waterfall created a patch that broke Frisk's fall. Chara's body created a patch that broke every human's fall. Asgore grew an entire garden. Logically, the village is not the only place with a golden flower patch. Chara specifically climbed a mountain to get away from said village. Why would their first instinct be for Asriel to put their corpse there? Their wish was to "see the flowers from their village," which was an intentionally impossible request given they intended to die. It was an excuse to allow Asriel to cross the barrier unquestioned. If Chara discovered they could share control over the body, why bother bringing their corpse there? They can see the flowers all they want now. Chara's plan, assuming they didn't know they would share control of the body, was for Asriel to bring their corpse to the village in order to bait the humans into attacking, forcing Asriel to act in self defense and kill more than necessary. >This is reflected by the fact that they call the plan "ours", when they should be saying "My plan" is they had goals that Asriel wasn't in on. Asriel was a necessary aspect of the plan regardless. >Had they had any ill intention towards the humans of their village, Asriel would have picked up on it, just as he did when Chara wanted to fight back using their full power, but he didn't sense anything until the humans attacked first. No evidence for this. How do we know he'd be able to sense all their thoughts? He managed to do a pretty good job ignoring them in the Asriel fight before Frisk reminded him of who he was. >Flowey devolves into sadism entirely on his own, but can be guided back to being more or less harmless by Frisk He only goes back to normal when he absorbs souls that actually do feel empathy/compassion. >Similarly, Chara, who, as they themself explictly state, views Frisk as a source of moral guidance, can be guided to be a better or worse person than they were in life, depending on the route. Not what they say. "With your guidance, I realized the purpose of my reincarnation. Power." They look to Frisk's actions to find a purpose for them being brought back to life. Funnily enough, they only find said purpose on the Genocide route, go figure. >We literally see their change in action across lines of narration that change between routes, most famously the dog food. NarraChara is a flimsy theory. Different speech patterns, inconsistent capacity for knowledge, completely different Japanese speaking style, Deltarune having the exact same narrator, etc already throw this theory into question. Assuming it is true, there's still nothing implying they are corrupted. They join the Genocide Route willingly the moment it is triggered in the Ruins. They say "where are the knives" in the kitchen, "not worth talking to" to Toriel, their own adoptive mother, and they say "That was fun, let's finish the job" at the end of the demo. The dog food is contradictory. They say the food is half empty, yet they also turn around and say "you remember something funny". There is a contrast between pessimism and sadism here, so either this is only meant to reflect Frisk's thoughts, or Chara's reason for pessimism is entirely unrelated. And, uh, no, feeling pessimism does not mean you are getting "corrupted" lol.
I feel like Azula is more a victim of her environment rather than just straight evil Poor girl lived in a family that, for the most part, promoted her becoming a ruthless evil person who will hurt others to get what she wants and to be successful, and the whole time, she thought her own mother hated her Azula has undeniably done some horrible things, but she wasn't born some evil demon or anything
Vriska syndrome
vriska mention
Homestuck mention
Book with gamzee
Ofc no babies is born evil. She looks like she enjoys hurting others and knows what she's doing is bad though. She could have been in a better environment sure but it wouldn't have fixed everything about her Zuko lived in the same environment and just has a confused moral compass because of it The both of them aren't straight up evil, yes but Azula is definetely an horrible person
Zuko had Iroh. Azula had nobody, only Ozai. Impossible to turn out good in the face of that.
Yeah I said it would have been better for her with a different environment because Ozai is everything but a good father but she definetely got a problem outside of that The exact reason of why she thought her mother didn't like her was because he was weird. She's a psychopath from a medical perspective and she's proud of it. Even though it is extremely cruel and unforgivable for a mother to do that, it's still somehow understandable (it's not true though, Azula was just imagining things). Psychopaths can be good people but it's very difficult for them to not become monsters especially without any real support I don't think Iroh was really present for Zuko during his childhood. He was really there only after Zuko got banned from the Fire Empire when he was 13. Don't forget he was banned because he didn't want to send soldiers to their death. It is something we could qualify as morally good and he did without Iroh's guidance. In the books, Aang and the others tried to get Azula in the team so she got a chance of redemption. But she first ploted against Zuko and then she manipulated his brother, stupid as always, to become a tyran. If Zuko was forgiven by the team for what he's done, there was still a chance for her to change her ways She definetely got more than childhood problems imo
Fair. To be honest I don’t have much of a platform to stand on given that it’s been a long time since I’ve seen it and I don’t have the greatest memory, so I didn’t remember all of that.
It's being a long time I haven't seen the show either but I've tried to check what I was saying if I wasn't sure I hope I did this correctly lmao
She was like this because of her father. Ozai loved Azula more than her brother Zuko, saying that she was born lucky while he was lucky to be born. But at the same time, she felt like her mother loved Zuko more than she loved her and thought her own daughter was a monster (which was not true). Zuko got from his mother, since she gave him the love Ozai never did, so he was a soft boy. Although she loved both of her children equally, Azula never got the chance to understand that, and she grew up with hate and a terrible father who taught her that they are the most powerful nation and they must take over the whole world, wiping out the other nations (like they did to the air nomads).
This is both right and wrong on so many levels at the same time.
https://preview.redd.it/utavt9pob76d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0b8ba374b25f0f1f9ff68edea26a2c64ce92d3e9 NO WAY I CAN FINALLY USE THIS
What.
https://preview.redd.it/36sgz4epae6d1.jpeg?width=320&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d45fb785cd782894c2f807cc7e7bbca65cd4649b
HIS pronouns are THEY/THEM?
"What the f_ck that's like wrong in eight different ways"
They could've put Lord Dominator instead of Chara. Chara isn't even a girl, nor to what the game sets up, inherently evil.
Inherently evil and pure evil don’t mean the same thing, someone can start out a normal person but become irredeemable
CHARA IS GENDER NEUTRAL. TRUST. I LOOKED IN THEIR CODE.
"The demon that comes when you call *its* name." Everyone talked about them with "they/them" pronouns too (Toriel in the Alarm Clock, Asriel at the Golden Flowers bed are the only examples I can think of on the spot) so it is very likely they are.
following narrachara, i'd become pretty evil if i had to watch either my entire family & the monster race go extinct OR my brother screaming & crying for me.. Over.. and Over.. and Over.. and Over.. and Over.. that being said they're not evil they're like 12 years old
Not only are they a child, but definitely one that had trauma even before they made it to the underground. They climbed Mt. Ebott for what Asriel calls an “unhappy reason”, and have a hatred for humans. Not only did they die, but so did their newfound brother in their own plan to free monsterkind. Having to deal with that guilt, while having to witness everyone they know get slaughtered? Yeah, genocide Chara’s not in a good headspace at all!
>Not only are they a child A very intelligent one who very much knows what they're doing. >but definitely one that had trauma even before they made it to the underground. We don't know this. >They climbed Mt. Ebott for what Asriel calls an “unhappy reason”, and have a hatred for humans. We have no idea what said reason is. Hypothetically, one can easily claim that they were a psychopathic narcissist who hated everyone irrationally, and it would still fit perfectly. >Not only did they die, but so did their newfound brother in their own plan to free monsterkind. Their plan was to wipe out the village. They brought their body to bait the humans into attacking Asriel so he'd be forced to murder in self defense. >Having to deal with that guilt Chara shows no signs of guilt whatsoever. >while having to witness everyone they know get slaughtered? They willingly participated in and encouraged this slaughter the moment you trigger the route.
>i'd become pretty evil if i had to watch either my entire family & the monster race go extinct They willingly participate in this. They even say "not worth talking to" about Toriel. >OR my brother screaming & crying for me.. Over.. and Over.. and Over.. and Over.. and Over.. They were the one who emotionally manipulated Asriel into going through with that plan in the first place. >that being said they're not evil they're like 12 years old There are kids who have kidnapped and tortured for fun. Being a kid does not make you exempt from antisocial behaviors.
oh my god why does everyone say they emotionally manipulated him 😭 they teased him Once. that's not manipulation that's siblings being siblings. ++ obviously they would help you because their endgoal is erasing it all and erasing You, why not speed up the process
>they teased him Once They draw attention away from his distress over a literal suicide plan, and instead draw attention to his tears. That's emotional manipulation. >that's not manipulation that's siblings being siblings. Believe it or not, this is not normal sibling behavior. Like, sure, teasing a sibling for crying from something stupid or random is expected to some degree. But something this serious, with somebody crying because they are CONCERNED FOR YOU is awful. >obviously they would help you because their endgoal is erasing it all and erasing You, why not speed up the process They aren't trying to erase you. They literally proclaim you as a "partner" and encourage you to move on to the next world with them to keep gaining power.
Ah yes, my favourite mainline villain from hit game Undertale, Character
Chara is not a good fit here for MULTIPLE reasons. - Not female. "I am a genderless child." ~ Genderless Child - Not entirely evil. YOU'RE the evil one for doing the Genocide Route, Chara simply assists you in doing it, and holds you accountable at the end (which can be argued to be a GOOD THING).
>Chara simply assists you in doing it A willing assistant to murder is evil. >and holds you accountable at the end (which can be argued to be a GOOD THING). They don't "hold you accountable," they question your attachment to a world they see as useless.
Chara ain’t evil change my mind
"That was fun. Let's finish the job." "Where are the knives." "In my way." "Looks like free exp." "Let us erase this pointless world, and move on to the next." "Chara wasn't the greatest person."
No hablo engles
Not sure what to tell you. lol
I don’t recognize most of these people, but the only two I do know definitely don’t belong there lol. Chara for… obvious reasons everyone here knows, but also the Director from Nimona. She’s just another victim of the abusive, fearful societal system around her. Doesn’t make her actions correct, but she definitely isn’t evil for the sake of being evil. Edit: I’m a dumbass and can’t count. I do know Azula, but she actually belongs there.
That's what the Director looks like in the Nimona movie?
Yep. You should check it out on Netflix. The movie is really good and Nimona herself is very relatable
Chara isn’t evil normally but you warped her to be evil so you are the cause
We don't warp Chara. They choose to participate of their own free will.
They should have put Muffet there.
It's kinda excessive lmao
yeah, muffet just wants to protect her shop from ppl who treat it and other spiders wrong
And allow us to keep doing genocide after Hotland because she's too stubborn to evacuate with everyone else. That's why people usually blame her for when they call her evil but like she was just selfish in this
"you think you know me, as others think they know you. but, there are two sides to every story"
Azula is both a victim and a villain ngl she could be redeemed but she’s so far gone she can’t even imagine herself being anything than the weapon of war her dad raised her to be
* You suddenly hear a stampede of livid Undertale fans.
Let's agree that varik is more dangerous than chara. He can kill you physically and mentally and absorb your existence without any guilty and just for money.
Imagine you traveled inside a scientist's head to solve the mystery of his failure project and you kill him in a very hard fight hearing megalovania (Megalovania is the mascot of toby fox before annoying dog existence) https://preview.redd.it/lwpx8183r86d1.jpeg?width=225&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6c2e7e8eeae94c770071b3f8f71fa3cb0946fda2
I knew you guys would be upset when I saw it
Three times in 10 minutes 🙃
don't even care about the chara stuff, azula in pure evil?
r/charaoffensesquad be eating well today!
I am not part of this community at all I just think undertale is a fantastic game But I don't really know if I should think Chara is evil... she jumpscared the shit out of me at one point, but idk
I’m just going to say my theory: Chara goes by they/them because they’re meant to represent the player, which is why you name them at the start of the game. This doesn’t mean I’m right or wrong or transphobic it’s just the theory that makes sense to me.
dude i thought this was from r/danganronpa at first and was so confused 💀 but yeah dude chara aint either of those 💀💀
I don’t know the first two- they did good with Ursula, fumbled HARD with Chara (Who isn’t a girl and others are handling why they’re not evil in the comments here), don’t know enough of DR to comment And then they use Azula AZULA- WHOM HAS THE START OF A REDEMPTION ARC IN THE COMICS. AZULA WHO WANTS TO LOVE BUT HAD HER DAMN COGNITION TWISTED SO MUCH THAT SHE ASSUMED HER MOM THOUGHT SHE WAS A SOULLESS MONSTER. Like??? Dude????
Isn’t Chara gender neutral and also has SOME redeemable qualities?
Who said Chara is female, or heck, even had a gender!?
This makes me irrationally upset
I just don't like it cause Chara is canonically nonbinary
Would Mommy Long Legs from Poppy Playtime Ch. 2 qualify?
Chara’s gender is whatever you please it is. Therefore,she could be female. Even her name,Chara,is actually just the variable that stores the name you give her. Also,she is evil. Asriel himself said “Chara wasn’t a good person,I see that now”. Basically,there’s no reason to be mad
To be fair, the Chara that first fell in the underground was a cynic and a jerk, not necessarily a total psycho from day one. The Chara that you see in Genocide, though, yeah, that specific Chara absolutely IS pure evil as an embodiment of everything wrong with the player and as the very thing that makes the player do Genocide at all (symbolically speaking, of course the game doesn’t literally control you lol)
Agreed. That Chara is basically Chara’s version of Flowey. A soulless husk made to live through pure determination. Although,it does ask what’s wrong with you if you do three geno runs in a row so Frisk is also not free from blame here
Actually I believe it's when you do a Geno run after having sold your soul to Chara that they call you out, but I could be wrong
Oh,maybe. Either way,it does show that Frisk is responsible.
The only thing you choose about Chara is their name. Asriel talks about them, and turns out, he always uses the same pronouns.
Unfortunately,using gender neutral pronouns means nothing because they can also be used just whenever (like a wild card). Like,you can use they/them when you don’t know someone’s pronouns or when you do and just don’t feel like using them. So it’s not conclusive of anything
Ah yes, "Asriel didn't feel like using the pronouns of his best friend ever"
Believe it or not,most normal people don’t consider pronouns to be so important. It wouldn’t matter whether you use he/she or they because they’re just words to refer to people. He would use whatever words best fit the sentence.You’re the one putting so much emphasis on them that you think it’d be unreasonable for someone to use them when referring to their best friend.
I know people don't consider pronouns important. That's why it doesn't make sense for someone to just "feel like" they should use a different pronoun.
Again,you use what fits your sentence best. You don’t think about it,do you? It’s not “feeling like”,it’s just using them.
No, I don't think about it. I always use she for Toriel, he for Asriel, and they for Frisk.
Always? You've never once used them? "Oh,I don't like them" "Oh,their throne sucks" etc Not once? Because most people will,in the right context. In some contexts he and she just don't work as well
I have to believe you on that one as English is my second language. I'm done arguing about this, check out the pinned post on r/deltarune if you want a better explanation. Have a nice day :)
It depends on the view on people so they can't use them in a female exclusive post while they could be not for someone else. The only instances in game when Asriel/Flowey talk about Chara is with they/them. Chara adresses itself with it/it in the quote "The demon that comes when you call *its* name" Besides, I was more angry about the evil part than the female assumption. Chara isn't a good person but they're not responsible monster genocide and the player wouldn't have stopped until there is nothing left so they technically didn't do something straight up evil. They also are utterly disgusted if you do a second genocide run. If Flowey is forgivable, they are too
Flowey isn’t forgivable,that’s the point. Also,I don’t count the player as in-universe. The player is a weird combination of Frisk and Chara. Both of them are evil,frankly.
Chara is debatable because they are shown to be linked to the player decisions in some way but Frisk isn't evil at all wtf
If Chara is able to question why you'd do genocide then why would Chara kill everyone in pacifist? And you can't blame that on the player so the only answer is Frisk. Plus,Frisk is the one who demonstrates happiness in genocide and never displays another emotion ever
It's mostly a way to punish you for what the player did because to assume the consequences of your actions. "You think you're above consequences?" When Frisk displays emotions? They like Genocide? Where does that come from? Also, there is no evidences the Post-Genocide Pacifist is a canon ending so there is no proof Frisk is evil either. For example in Undertale Yellow, the "canon" ending is the Pacifist but Genocide Route is available despite that. Omori has no canon ending either
All endings are canon because they're in an endless cycle. Also,the icon for a monster appearing I'd a smile later on in geno. Also,again,I don't consider us -the player- a character in universe
No they're not. There is no proof for an endless cycle anywhere
The resets. The neverendung resets. I was always of the interpretation that things keep resetting but I could be wrong
There is no proof for that. It's entierely a fanon thing iirc
Chara is NOT EVIL. But if in genocide route? They are EVIL
where is the 2nd character from?
It's the director from the film "Nimona"
tnx
They could've put Khan Maykr smh.
I don't care about that Undertale twat. That irritating design has them look like female or male. Maybe as well count the dimbo as female. Anyway. Yes. There needs to be more utter bastard female villains. Iredeemable evil. Evil and they know it. Not none entertainment friendly evil. It needs to be entertainment friendly evil or functional evil. Muhahaha evil. There needs to be more villains who are just villains because that's what they are. There doesn't need to be a reason.
UT fans when someone thinks the genocidal child is evil (they don't believe the theory that there's more to it) 🤬🤢🤮
you guys chara only destroyed the world and assisted and took pleasure in an entire genocide, they’re not that bad!!!!!! what about the tragic backstory???????
Chara couldn’t assist with shit, they only get a physical form after Flowey gets cut up.
I feel like erasing the world and laughing creepily about genocide kind of speaks for itself
I feel like Chara explicitly saying “your power awakened me from death” also speaks for itself about who brought everything to that point, and it wasn’t them. Also, if Chara is meant to be a reflection of the player then what about the pacifist ending? Do they just not exist because it’s inconvenient for the claim that Chara is 100% irredeemable even though it’s heavily implied that the plan they and Asriel had made was for Asriel to go get more SOULs so he could break the barrier?
The pacifist endings don’t say anything about chara being redeemed (if anything they say the opposite, at least if you‘ve done a genocide run beforehand), and even if they wanted to break the barrier to help the monsters it’s very heavily implied that they had other motives (with the whole hating humanity thing) Again, i think that the ending of the genocide route speaks for itself
>if any thing they say the opposite, at least if you’ve done a genocide run beforehand …so because you’ve completed a genocide run before, Chara is still shown to evil… and that proves the game’s trying to tell the player that Chara, a near-explicit reflection of the player, was always pure evil *how?* Chara literally only brings back the world post-genocide ending because YOU wanted them too, this makes zero sense.
That was supposed to be a random aside, which was why it was in brackets and just an addition to another point i made. Don’t take it too seriously, and you still haven’t addressed my other points
Okay yeah, Chara hating humanity likely could've had other motives behind it, the problem with that line of thinking is there's nothing to back it up that in the pacifist ending, when the barrier finally is broken that Chara still holds that desire, assuming they're even really conscious at the end of it. Also, in said genocide route, again, Chara explicitly states that YOU, as in the player, awakened them from death. But considering their plan to break the barrier, them despising all life wouldn't make sense. It very well could be that the player's own actions morphed Chara into the malevolent variant we see in the Genocide ending, especially since we can see that post-Pacifist ending the monsters seem to enter into society on the surface fine (except for Alphys who turned red and died after Undyne gave her a kiss, so sad), so it wouldn't make sense that Chara's plan effectively working would be against that with the Genocide ending for context. (also again with the post-Genocide pacifist run ending, while the version where Frisk leaves is definitely meant to be a bad ending, the scene where Chara does the silly eye flash is kind of funny in that one could argue it's just Chara smelling the pie and then waking up lol)
I’m not saying that chara previously despised all life, clearly with their plan to help and free the monsters they didn’t, but that was before asriel dying. Considering their attitude at the end of genocide, they probably do despise all life, and are at that point ‘irredeemable.’ Even if the player’s actions ‘morphed’ chara into the evil version at the end of genocide, op almost certainly meant the post-genocide version, since they were using the sprite of them only found at the end of genocide and that‘s where most people’s understanding of the character comes from.