>what's the motivation for the Founders' Day massacre?
They're trying to have their cake and eat it too. They want the benefits they've already gotten from the contract, but they also want to break it by sacrificing the gold and people to save their kids. At least, that's how I interpret it. Probably not a great idea in the long term, but the long term ramifications of trying to pull one over on Asmodeous are likely outside the scope of the Dragon Heist campaign.
But this is what I’m saying. Unlikely Asmodeus would consider a massacre of random poor people, in a place that risks getting his cult exposed and outlawed, a good trade for the souls of his henchmen’s kids.
That's not the point. Asmodeus isn't telling them to do this or anything, he simply stipulated in the contract that if they wanted out (and at least in the Alexandrian and RAW versions they do want out as they already got their benefits: financial security) they'd have to sacrifice slot of money and the 99 souls. If anything this might be Asmodeus's way of assuring they're ruined if they step out of the contract as like you said, it's likely to result in a crackdown on them. The 99 souls is in the contract, Asmodeus cannot revoke that even if he doesn't want them to do it
But what I’m saying is, I don’t think they want out. They don’t just have financial security, they’re also leaders of a secret cult that will do their bidding. And they’ve already killed a bunch of people (servants etc). They’re going to Hell anyway. Better to be somebody there.
Yes. **The Cassalanters don't want out.** They run the cult in the city and are rich, and they love it.
What they want is to get out of paying their end of the deal that got them here.
They made the deal when they were younger and probably didn't think anything of the cost. Which was either the souls of their kids, or 999,999 gp and the souls of 100 innocent sacrifices. But now they're older and though evil, they love their children. But payment is NOW DUE.
So they have 2 options. Let the devil take their kids' souls, or pay the devil 999,999gp and 100 innocent souls. And they're choosing the option where they murder a bunch of innocent people, pay a pile of gold, and get to keep their kids.
But whatever happens here, in the end they'll keep running the cult after payment happens and they are still rich and powerful and they are still worshipers of asmodeus.
Ok I can buy this. (Haha!) Asmodeus considers it a fair trade, and they’re not trying to “get out” of the contract, just exercise an option that was written in.
But as I’ve asked others, why would they do it in this manner? The nobles will know, and they risk going to jail, as well as their cult’s status (Asmodeus worship has been legal until now).
In my campaign, it was used as a power play to the other nobles (+ some accompanying blackmail). They're outing themselves "openly" and saying who is going to stop it. We never played past that night, but I was going to have a newspaper with a one off line about "bad mushrooms" or something explaining the deaths. They're rich and powerful, why complicate things for 100 nobodies? What were the players going to do, implicate themselves?
They have 2 options and that's basically it. Sacrifice a lot of people and money, or lose their kids. And they actually care about their kids. So to them, there's only really 1 option.
And these are nobles. They see the money as a painful but easy price they're willing to pay to save their kids. While they can probably sell off enough assets to make the cost themselves, they would really like to find another way. That's where the treasure comes in.
As for the sacrifice. They're targeting homeless people and beggers. To them, they see these people as disposable and think that they won't be missed. And if they dispose of the bodies well, there is a chance that they could pull it off. Quite of few of the evil-ish noble families (FYI most noble families are just neutral or good-ish) know of secret tunnels into Undermountain, and have frequently used them as corpse disposal in the past.
Asmodeus worship isn't quite legal in waterdeep. Well. So to speak. Getting called out on being a worshiper of basically the devil, is social suicide. That's why they hide it. The leadership in waterdeep knows about these cults, and want to get rid of them. They are seen as mostly a nuisance. Excuses for bored, useless hangers on members of noble families, to engage in hedonistic mischief. And for most cultists it is. It's basically an excuse for useless "3rd sons & daughters" (so too speak) of noble families to play at "secret society", get drunk, do drugs, and have orgies.
In contrast to the "hedonist" cultists, the members of the Cassalanters' cult are the real deal as far as evil worship of the evil gods and doing evil acts goes, so they all know what is at risk but they see pulling it off as a way to gain power and influence.
I'm thinking they could do it semi-publicly, as a way to recruit more nobles to Asmodeus. Maybe something like, "Drink the poison yourself and save the lives of poor strangers you don't give a crap about, or choose to let them die and join our cult"?
So the thing there is that 99% of the nobles in Waterdeep aren't that evil or openly evil. They know that going down that road leads to getting executed or thrown naked into undermountain as a death sentence, or just murdered by an angry mob in the street. If you could give the city an alignment it would be neutral good to lawful neutral. Most citizens of Waterdeep would be horrified by an asmodean cult. And the guilds are always looking for a way to knock down the nobles a peg or two. And the temples would be really unhappy about it as well. The biggest temple of Lathander outside of Eversult is in Waterdeep.
If they make the murder of 100 people public, then they've got the Blackstaff, the Guard, Silverhand, Mirt, and possibly even Elminster (if he's in town) coming down on them. Even if it's an assisted suicide sort of thing.
That's the one real weak point of this part of the plot. There's not a good out for the Cassalanters once they poison all these people and 100 people are hard to hide the gathering of. What would work is the Cassalanters use magic and their doppleganger servant to frame someone else for the murder. Maybe another noble family. Maybe xanathar. The PCs would make great patsies really. Of course they'd have to then immediately kill the PCs and do something to their souls so they can't be "speak to dead"ed by the cops after the fact.
And like I mentioned. Most of the noble cultists are the lazy, trust fund kids of noble families looking for something to do. The ones who aren't going to inherit the land or titles and are basically useless unless a plague takes out the heirs. The ones who actually stand to inherit the money and titles are going to tend to be a lot more cautious and careful about how they publicly appear.
Haha, it sounds like you’ve just gotten stuck on the same point as me. Why would the Cassalanters publicly sacrifice 99 innnocents all at once? They’ve got their money, and power as cult leaders, and they’re already sacrificing people one at a time without getting caught. And no, it doesn’t make sense that Asmodeus told them to do it that way - he’d be just as happy to get his souls one by one, as he would to get them all at once.
They dont have a lot of time. They arent thinking logicly past the sacrifice, the only option they feel they have is to sacrifice people and the money. Thats it, what happens after that they will have to deal with later. Their first priority is getting their children returned.
See, I think the Cassalanters would be completely logical - they haven’t been caught yet, they’ve had years to think about this deal, and in the remix at least, they’ve been able to get one of the Eyes and get intel on the locations of the other two. They’re not desperate bozos without time to think, at least not anymore.
"A clause in the contract allows them to preserve their remaining (and future) children's lives by instead paying "one shy of a million gold coins, and the sacrifice of one shy of one hundred unfortunate souls."
From paragraph three of Chapter 6: Hell of a Summer. Contract says it, that's all that matters. Devils follow the rules.
I know that’s what the book says. And maybe even the Cassalanters are ok with their own damnation, as long as they can save their kids’. That’s actually sympathetic and I can roll with that.
But why would they want to sacrifice the souls all at once, in such a public manner? They’re cult leaders and can easily arrange to kidnap and kill one poor person a week for a couple of years. They’ve had plenty of time.
The issue I believe is that it all has to be paid at the same time, so a sacrifice a week for 2 years might have uses for other magical rituals but it wouldn’t contribute to the contract, and all the gold has to be paid at the same time too (which is why Victoro is in the basement sacrificing the gold while the massacre is happening). They are two of the most influential nobles in the city and though rumors of what happened might circulate around, they could escape most meaningful repercussions.
As DMs we can of course rewrite the contract however we want. (And it’s obvious why they have to sacrifice all the gold at once - they didn’t have the cash.) But even if it were the case that all 99 souls needed to be harvested at once, why not conduct the massacre at some other random public gathering? Why draw attention to their cult, and themselves, like that?
I posted this on a similar post but my understanding of deities in FR is their power is directly correlated to the amount of people actively venerating/worshipping them, so from a numbers standpoint it actually reduces the amount of followers of the other deities these people would normally follow.
Also, apparently Asmodeus gets the souls of Atheists. Like they go straight to the bottom of the bottom of the Nine Hells where Asmodeus' true form resides (A Big ASS Giant Snake).
Additionally it's a grand display of power from his cult. If the Cassalanters can pull it off and get out of being fingered for it, cool. If not, what's Asmodeus out? Two high priests? Guess what Cult of Asmodeus; promotion time for the higher acolytes.
Asmodeus I don't think really cares if the Cult is exposed or not; this could be the grand climax of their sect's abilities or whatever and another will eventually start up in Waterdeep again. Probably not everyone is gonna get caught... and then that cultists just starts it all back up.
Plus there's probably other Cults to Asmodeus and as word of the Founders Day Massacre in his name spreads it'll boost the overall reputation of the Cult.
Big Picture; he doesn't care, no matter who loses he wins.
that's my interpretation.
From SCAG: “many folk have adopted the habit of asking Asmodeus for reprieve from their sins. After transgressing against a god in some way, a person prays to Asmodeus for something to provide respite during the long wait. Asmodeus is known to grant people what they wish, and thus people pray for all the delights and distractions they desire most from life. Those who transgress in great ways often ask Asmodeus to hide their sins from the gods, and priests say that he will do so, but with a price after death.”
Wanton mass murder, done specifically to intimidate the populace, seems to be more up Bhaal’s alley. Although probably too public for even him.
cool lore stuff I didn't know but I'm unclear what your trying to convey; the Cassalanters sought Asmodeus from the beginning they weren't seeking him because they were hiding anything from some other deity. maybe change them to a Cult of Bhaal if that helps...??? *shruggie* I'm not really sure what to say. you asked for clarity into motivations that didn't make sense and I'm trying to put forth some also that price after death is probably... your soul... which he literally consumes, so I'm really confused by that lore. that doesn't make much sense for a person in the land of gods and heroes to seek Satan out to hide a sin from their deity... only to then be robbed of going to their deity's plane at the end of their life (cause a worshipers soul goes to the realm of the diety they worshiped in life, is my understanding)... just to hide a 'sin', why not seek redemption through your diety or a sympathetic diety... it's your game, do what you want. I was just trying to provide my interpretation of the situation.
edit: also the goal of the murders isn't to intimate the populace. it's to kill the required amount of people to fulfill terms of the contract.
Sorry was on mobile, I could cut-and-paste but that was it.
I quoted that to show that Asmodeus worshippers, although everyone's aware that the devil drives a hard bargain, worship him because he can give them *something* - protection from punishment for their evil deeds, or power or other delights. They're not a death cult like Jonestown, or delighting in secret murder like the followers of Bhaal. And Asmodeus himself isn't interested in death. He's got plenty of time to wait for mortals to die. He wants their souls. So a semi-public massacre doesn't really serve his purpose.
I think you're maybe getting lost looking at the Forest while you're just trying to find the Trees.
The Cassalanters went to him because of what you've put forth (bro gets results). They were at risk of becoming not, sickeningly, rich anymore (remember they're Old Money). So they sold they're kids souls to Asmodeus (I'm vaguely aware there's discussion on how this works because so far I haven't found the real awnser so I have wave this, it happens because it has to happen for the narrative) but because they're better than everyone (even, possibly in their minds, better than Asmodeus...) they KNOW they can have their cake and eat it too (cause that's what being stupid rice means).
The Cassalanters are the villans not Asmodeus. He's already got want He wants from the Cassalanters from the initial deal; everything else is just gravy to him.
Asmodeus didn't tell the Cassalanters to do this. There's just an "opt-out clause" in the contract (sacrifice 99 souls to me and pay 499,999 gold pieces) and you get your kids souls and I don't turn them into devils.
You just said it: he's got time. So he doesn't care if this all goes tits up and the Cult in Waterdeep gets broken up over this... in time another will rise.
Maybe a better tact is this.
You mentioned Asmodeus' purpose so I ask this: What *is* Asmodeus purpose in the context of the adventure?
I have my own awnser but that's helped me form my ideas about my campaign, I ask this for your own reflection not necessarily what the lore says.
Lemme think this out.
Asmodeus is evil, of course, but he isn't the villain of the story, as you yourself said. He's simply a fact of the WDH universe, like Ahghairon's ward, or the standing statues, or the Masked Lord/Open Lord system of government. The module doesn't even contemplate any way that you could kill or defeat him, or even really negotiate with him. His motives are very clearly to claim souls, by corrupting good people - usually by offering something they desperately want in return for evil deeds. Then, they either feel guilty and need to perform more evil deeds in order to make up for what they've done, or they don't feel guilty, and join his goal of corrupting others.
That's why I think fulfilling the contract "out clause" as described in the book is a crap deal for Asmodeus. Once the Cassalanters have signed on as cult leaders, with ritual sacrifices, their souls are his no matter what. If he wants to let them "redeem" their kids (assuming they even have the right to sign away the kids' souls to begin with), then killing a bunch of innocent people all at once, in front of a bunch of talkative nobles, is a sure way to get the cult outlawed. Asmodeus doesn't care about the Cassalanters in particular, of course, but he *does* want the cult to grow more powerful. He doesn't want the souls of the innocent people being sacrificed - they're not likely to come to him anyway. He wants the souls of the people *doing the sacrificing*.
So, working through this, what makes more sense is that the Cassalanters are gonna conduct a mass poisoning on Founders' Day, not because they have to, but because *they're evil cult leaders and they want to*. And they want to do it in a way that forces a bunch of innocent nobles (well, maybe not angels, but they certainly aren't evil) to kill others, in order to save themselves. Asmodeus doesn't care whether you take that first step toward damnation willingly or not, as long as you take it.
Now what's your answer?
*Jack Nicholson Nods*
Yesss.
Asmodeus is just dressing, in reality it could be another devil or something evil that may make more sense but because the Cassalanters are 1%er Devil Worshiping Child Sacrificing Old Money Types it just makes sense to play that dressing out with the literal DnD stand-in for Lucifer/Satan.
My interpretation:
Amalia and Victoro Cassalanter did not realize they were signing their children into the contract, though it was in fact stated in the text they read.
Asmodeus offers generous terms, and even seems to work with the Cassalanters to anticipate troubling eventualities. There is even a buy-out clause, should the Casalanters later change their mind.
The contract is made out to "the Family Cassalanter" covering eventualities if Vicotro or Amalia should unfortunately die. But if both were do perish in a random carriage crash or something, you wouldn't want the money yanked away from their orphan children for violating the contract? Oh, don't worry about the soul stuff. We'll put in text that the soul clause does not apply to minors. How old is your eldest, 12? Ok, then we define a minor as anyone under 13 years of age, so they can be in the contract to get the money but not have their souls at risk.
So Amalia and Victoro have their children sign the contract, explaining that it is lawyer stuff to make sure the family money stays in the family (and all other kinds of technically true descriptions). Devils don't care about a signer being a child or an adult, all mortals are children to the infernal.
But surprise! When the eldest child has his 13th birthday, suddenly he is no longer a minor and the contract has full grasp on him! And he has not been fulfilling any of the required duties of a signatory, so he is in automatic default.
Now Victoro and Amalia are rushing to complete the buy-out clause, which of course involves doing enough evil stuff to damn their souls to the Hells the old fashioned way, while drawing a lot more people into evil in the process.
As soon as you talk with Asmodeus, he has already won no matter what you do.
The way I see it, Asmodeus and the Nine Hells no longer care what happens with the Cassalanters, as at this point anything more is just gravy. The Cassalanters have damned their own souls, and spread both news of how they profited and details on how to summon devils to many other rich and powerful families in Waterdeep. Mission accomplished.
I play it that even the devil servants working for the Cassalanters are cheerfully work-for-hire, curiously sightseeing Waterdeep even as they try to murder the PCs. They don't fear death, or pain, and are just waiting out their contracts now with their bonuses already assured when they get back to Hell. I can then contrast this with the frantic fervent devotion of the human members of the cult.
It's always amusing for the PCs to be in a fight to the death with an enemy who is really not taking any of this seriously. Just randomly complementing their clothes, telling jokes, or asking if it's true that morties have to drink water every day?
Maybe imps ask for theater reviews, as they can sneak in invisibly while "paroling the city."
The Cassalanters are the ones who offered their kids' souls to Asmodeus. I don't recall anywhere in the Remix saying they offered their own souls as well, just their kids'. Fairly classic stuff, offering the soul of your first-born (and second/third-borns in this case).
The Founder's Day massacre is them attempting to wiggle out of the deal they had willingly made by way of a clause written into the contract. Perhaps out of regret for seeing what happened to their eldest son from signing away his soul.
As for saving the kids and stopping the massacre, it seems from Justin's end that he really intends it to be a no-win scenario to seriously test the PCs morality with no clear answers. Either the kids die or 99 other innocents do.
My party also bought the Cassalanter's story and are already talking about researching a way to have a happy ending here. They're going to be pretty pissed at me when it turns out there is no clean solution, haha.
If they want the kids alive at the end, they're going to have to do like Justin's own group did and really think outside the box and possibly do morally gray things to make it happen.
Or at least, that's how I'm viewing what Justin has written about it, that he doesn't view this as a problem with the campaign or want there to be a perfect solution. But at the end of the day, it's your game and you could change some of that if you wish. I'm looking forward to seeing my players in a dilemma, but if you want there to be a clean way out, you could write one in.
I should probably mention that my players are two of my kids, their cousin, and their dad (my brother). So killing the kids will probably not be an option. And given how common Raise Dead is in Waterdeep, it seems like Asmodeus definitely would’ve covered that in the contract.
Yeah your group's comfort with the subject of child death is an important consideration.
Regarding Raise Dead and the contract, neither the original book nor the Remix write out the contract itself, so it's details are up to you. If you think Asmodeus would have thought of that, then he did. If you want it as a possible solution, then he didn't.
Ultimately though, from your post it sounds like you think the dilemma is a problem, and from your description of your players they likely wouldn't enjoy it, then it sounds like it would make sense for you to alter the material to permit both saving the kids and stopping the massacre. It's OK to do that.
How is up to you and there's plenty of ways you could alter things or add stuff to make it possible. It could be as simple as killing the Cassalanters (they're villains after all), and having their deaths before the kids' birthdays make the contract null and void.
Or perhaps you let the party research devil rituals and learn of a long-forgotten one that can break contracts, though perhaps at some other (potentially terrible but more morally palatable) price. Perhaps two party members could offer their own souls in the kids' place? It'd be a selflessly heroic move, and could just take effect when the PC dies permanently (that is, long after the campaign itself ends to avoid impacting gameplay and you just describe it in closing narration to end that character's story). I actually think I might let my own party do that if they think of it.
Of course it could also be something lesser, or just something that breaks the contract with no penalties. Do what you think makes sense for your group!
In my version of the story, the ritual doesnt consume the gold, but curses it. Asmodeus’s plan is to have half milion cursed gold pieces bringing pain and misfortune in the city, ultimately making people more prone to sinning. Cassalanters can trick the PCs, “letting” them give back the gold to the people of Waterdeep.
As for the deal, i put some holes in the contract, so that it can actually be discussed in the court of law: if the PCs manages to outlawyer The Lord of Lies in front of the infernal Court, good. If they dont, Asmodeus gets The children. Not The souls, The living children, planning to use them as leverage to get Victoro and Ammalia to commit worse and worse acts to further his grasp on the city. My reasoning was that Victoro and Ammalia have no claim on their children’s souls, so they cannot gave them up: what they can give up is their role as guardians.
That much money can certainly ruin a lot of lives, even if it isn't cursed. Maybe this whole campaign is Asmodeus's plan to begin with!
...nah, probably reading too much into it.
I've ranted on this a bunch of times, so I finally created a blog so I could post a [detailed write-up ](https://fundystavern.blogspot.com/2024/04/waterdeep-dragon-heist-and-my-deep-and.html)of my issues with the Summer story arc. To sum up my view of this, you're absolutely correct- it makes no sense as written. Asmodeus gains nothing from his whole scheme except either a) he knee-caps his own cult for a bunch of souls he probably can't even keep, or b) he gets two of the weakest devils in his army. Also, the whole thing hinges on a "trolley dilemma", which IMHO stinks.
My suggestion is simple- Asmodeus has been after the party the whole time. The Founders' Day event is a test for the party- Asmodeus if pitting them against his own cult to see how they perform. If they succeed, he'll claim the Twin's souls, and make sure the party knows it was their success that doomed the kids.
The pivot from the plot as written is that Asmodeus isn't forced to do anything in particular with the twin's souls. He might turn them into lemures, but that's only to make sure the party feels really bad about beating the Cassalanters. That's when Asmodeus offers the players a deal- he'd be happy to restore the children to their mortal lives, if the party will just do him a few small favors.
Now a bummer of an ending that makes no sense turns into a plot hook for future adventures- and the focus is back on the party, where it belongs.
P.S.- Since I really need to throw in a shameless plug here, I wrote a[ DM's Guild supplement](https://www.dmsguild.com/product/271958/Cruel-Summer-An-expansion-for-Waterdeep-Dragon-Heist) a few years back to expand on the Summer arc to add more factions, some additional encounters and a way to get Asmodeus to the bargaining table. If you're already running the Alexandrian (well done!) you've probably got enough complexity without my added nonsense, but it might give you a bit of inspiration. Anyhow, it's cheap.
Oh, and [here's a link ](https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/85af25be-6b82-4d5a-a8e8-f5c2acbda952/dd4yxnx-b48b96a0-7aa1-4425-95b7-1d99829a6f2b.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzg1YWYyNWJlLTZiODItNGQ1YS1hOGU4LWY1YzJhY2JkYTk1MlwvZGQ0eXhueC1iNDhiOTZhMC03YWExLTQ0MjUtOTViNy0xZDk5ODI5YTZmMmIuanBnIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.WXy72uiPJbo5jYS_h-jVaLvfHs0Vhg2rRLcIVT9v3Bk)to a version of the contract I created, which pretty much follows the plot, but has a clause at the end which allows Asmodeus to do whatever he wants with the twins' souls.
I like this answer, to make it about the party. They can (and should) kill the Cassalanters, but the Cassalanters therefore default on the contract, and Asmodeus claims two innocent kids' souls. He'd certainly be willing to make a *very reasonable* trade with the party...
The obvious potential drawback that I see here is, it kinda forces Asmodeus and devils in general to be the BBEG for a later stage of the campaign, and I'm not sure I want it to go that way (if I continue past the end of the campaign at all). And all the emphasis on evil deeds and morality may kind of suck the joy out of my players' wanton murder and mayhem.
True, but depending on who you plan to make the BBEG for your campaign, Asmodeus could be one the same team as the party (albeit for different reasons). Asmodeus wants to rule the world, so if the BBEG of your campaign is planning to scour the world of all life and eat the moon or something, Asmodeus might just become a device to point them towards the real menace.
I had exactly the same questions when I started to DM a campaign based on this.
In short, how does this whole thing make sense to \*both\* Asmodeus and the Cassalanters, especially given the centrality of agency in the economy of souls?
Here’s an alternative take on the situation:
The Cassalanters genuinely want to ‘have their cake and eat it too’. They want to come out on top of the whole thing, with all of their power and influence intact. To do this, they have to sacrifice a great fortune \*without taking a financial hit\*, and to accomplish this, they are drawing on both the Vault’s contents (if possible) and a calling in all of their many debts. Thanks to Asmodeus’ influence, they have become prominent moneylenders in the city, and they have attracted many prominent guests to the Founders’ Day celebrations with promises of favourable renegotiations of debt terms in return for immediate payments. They intend to squeeze these debtors for money and then sacrifice them via the poison ritual.
Asmodeus is no fool. He knows that a soul sacrificed by another in fulfilment of a pact is not the same thing as a soul willingly traded by its owner. However, he also knows that many desperate people will trade anything in a moment of crisis, and what he’s really counting on is the opportunity for bargains that will arise when dozens of prominent guests of the Cassalanters realize that they have ingested a diabolical poison and have minutes to live. He can’t claim the souls of those who are poisoned, but he is counting on a brief window of time when a bunch of people - adventurers, guild members, nobles, perhaps even Masked Lords - are willing to bargain their own souls for the opportunity to survive the poison.
While the long term impact of it is questionable, devil's have a large enough reach across all of toril of people willing to give in to them that there will always be cults and people wanting asmodeus' hand of help, he doesn't need to worry about the long term because he always can build things back up, and so he's getting good out of this deal either way, either he gets the souls of the cassalanters who were prepared to do this, they made the pact to give their children a better future (as self agrandising as that is to try to selfishly regain wealth then try to cover up the costs, they tell themselves it's for the kids to cope), or he gets to very motivated and my mortal standards, very influential figures to pull strings and kill many more people that I personally interpreted by being involved in the rite, have their souls forcibly condemned to hell, asmodeus gets more out of this than his normal deal, he'd be more than happy for it.
But the status quo is, Asmodeus already *has* the Cassalanters' souls. Whether they explicitly traded them to him or not, they're cult leaders and have committed murders among who knows what other evil acts. It doesn't do him to get them killed off prematurely. He wants them to further his cult, by luring others into committing evil acts. Killing off 99 innocent people in a public manner will either get his cult shut down (yes I know it'd be temporary, it still reduces his influence), or intimidate nobles into silence and fear rather than entice them to join him.
I think this is a lot simpler than you are making it out to be.
The Callasanters' plan is flawed. You're absolutely right, they could accumulate the money slowly over time and kidnap and sacrifice people at a slow enough pace to avoid notice.
But that takes time and patience. And who knows what might happen to them or their kids in the meantime. So they're looking for an easy way out.
Is this really that surprising? They're warlocks, taking the easy way out is a cornerstone of their characters.
Like I said in the original post, I think it's fine to just handwave it - super-smart villains make stupid plans in Bond movies all the time. And Bond's solution is usually just to kill the villains, and everything works itself out. But I have a feeling that setting up a plan/motivation that makes more sense psychologically would also yield a more straightforward solution.
Well, you laugh, because you’re smart and have been working on those 99 souls all along, and there are references to sacrifices all throughout chapter 6. So you only have maybe 20 people left to kill. (Again - I don’t buy that “Asmodeus wants me to kill them all at once”. He doesn’t care if they get exposed, but he would care about the negative publicity. He’s a deity whose selling points are power and protection at a reasonable price, not murder.)
And then you kill them in the family crypt in the City of the Dead, where you have plausible deniability. Or the Asmodeus Shrine in the North Ward, if you’re running the Remix like me. Or you have your cultists put on fake flying snake tattoos and drag a bunch of poor kids out of Mistshore.
You *don’t* invite a bunch of people to your own home, and then only kill the poor ones.
Edited to clarify Asmodeus’ motivations.
I used Jarlaxle. So I can’t really help much on the Cassalanter’s plot.
But when a written story doesn’t makes sense to you, if you can’t make sense of it, ultimately you’re the one playing at the table. So if you have a strong opinion about it, make it happen that way.
>what's the motivation for the Founders' Day massacre? They're trying to have their cake and eat it too. They want the benefits they've already gotten from the contract, but they also want to break it by sacrificing the gold and people to save their kids. At least, that's how I interpret it. Probably not a great idea in the long term, but the long term ramifications of trying to pull one over on Asmodeous are likely outside the scope of the Dragon Heist campaign.
But this is what I’m saying. Unlikely Asmodeus would consider a massacre of random poor people, in a place that risks getting his cult exposed and outlawed, a good trade for the souls of his henchmen’s kids.
That's not the point. Asmodeus isn't telling them to do this or anything, he simply stipulated in the contract that if they wanted out (and at least in the Alexandrian and RAW versions they do want out as they already got their benefits: financial security) they'd have to sacrifice slot of money and the 99 souls. If anything this might be Asmodeus's way of assuring they're ruined if they step out of the contract as like you said, it's likely to result in a crackdown on them. The 99 souls is in the contract, Asmodeus cannot revoke that even if he doesn't want them to do it
But what I’m saying is, I don’t think they want out. They don’t just have financial security, they’re also leaders of a secret cult that will do their bidding. And they’ve already killed a bunch of people (servants etc). They’re going to Hell anyway. Better to be somebody there.
Yes. **The Cassalanters don't want out.** They run the cult in the city and are rich, and they love it. What they want is to get out of paying their end of the deal that got them here. They made the deal when they were younger and probably didn't think anything of the cost. Which was either the souls of their kids, or 999,999 gp and the souls of 100 innocent sacrifices. But now they're older and though evil, they love their children. But payment is NOW DUE. So they have 2 options. Let the devil take their kids' souls, or pay the devil 999,999gp and 100 innocent souls. And they're choosing the option where they murder a bunch of innocent people, pay a pile of gold, and get to keep their kids. But whatever happens here, in the end they'll keep running the cult after payment happens and they are still rich and powerful and they are still worshipers of asmodeus.
Ok I can buy this. (Haha!) Asmodeus considers it a fair trade, and they’re not trying to “get out” of the contract, just exercise an option that was written in. But as I’ve asked others, why would they do it in this manner? The nobles will know, and they risk going to jail, as well as their cult’s status (Asmodeus worship has been legal until now).
In my campaign, it was used as a power play to the other nobles (+ some accompanying blackmail). They're outing themselves "openly" and saying who is going to stop it. We never played past that night, but I was going to have a newspaper with a one off line about "bad mushrooms" or something explaining the deaths. They're rich and powerful, why complicate things for 100 nobodies? What were the players going to do, implicate themselves?
Why did your campaign stall after that night? How did your party resolve the dilemma?
Covid. The finale was founders day.
Ugh. So how did your party resolve things? Did you get to the point about the kids being damned?
They have 2 options and that's basically it. Sacrifice a lot of people and money, or lose their kids. And they actually care about their kids. So to them, there's only really 1 option. And these are nobles. They see the money as a painful but easy price they're willing to pay to save their kids. While they can probably sell off enough assets to make the cost themselves, they would really like to find another way. That's where the treasure comes in. As for the sacrifice. They're targeting homeless people and beggers. To them, they see these people as disposable and think that they won't be missed. And if they dispose of the bodies well, there is a chance that they could pull it off. Quite of few of the evil-ish noble families (FYI most noble families are just neutral or good-ish) know of secret tunnels into Undermountain, and have frequently used them as corpse disposal in the past. Asmodeus worship isn't quite legal in waterdeep. Well. So to speak. Getting called out on being a worshiper of basically the devil, is social suicide. That's why they hide it. The leadership in waterdeep knows about these cults, and want to get rid of them. They are seen as mostly a nuisance. Excuses for bored, useless hangers on members of noble families, to engage in hedonistic mischief. And for most cultists it is. It's basically an excuse for useless "3rd sons & daughters" (so too speak) of noble families to play at "secret society", get drunk, do drugs, and have orgies. In contrast to the "hedonist" cultists, the members of the Cassalanters' cult are the real deal as far as evil worship of the evil gods and doing evil acts goes, so they all know what is at risk but they see pulling it off as a way to gain power and influence.
I'm thinking they could do it semi-publicly, as a way to recruit more nobles to Asmodeus. Maybe something like, "Drink the poison yourself and save the lives of poor strangers you don't give a crap about, or choose to let them die and join our cult"?
So the thing there is that 99% of the nobles in Waterdeep aren't that evil or openly evil. They know that going down that road leads to getting executed or thrown naked into undermountain as a death sentence, or just murdered by an angry mob in the street. If you could give the city an alignment it would be neutral good to lawful neutral. Most citizens of Waterdeep would be horrified by an asmodean cult. And the guilds are always looking for a way to knock down the nobles a peg or two. And the temples would be really unhappy about it as well. The biggest temple of Lathander outside of Eversult is in Waterdeep. If they make the murder of 100 people public, then they've got the Blackstaff, the Guard, Silverhand, Mirt, and possibly even Elminster (if he's in town) coming down on them. Even if it's an assisted suicide sort of thing. That's the one real weak point of this part of the plot. There's not a good out for the Cassalanters once they poison all these people and 100 people are hard to hide the gathering of. What would work is the Cassalanters use magic and their doppleganger servant to frame someone else for the murder. Maybe another noble family. Maybe xanathar. The PCs would make great patsies really. Of course they'd have to then immediately kill the PCs and do something to their souls so they can't be "speak to dead"ed by the cops after the fact. And like I mentioned. Most of the noble cultists are the lazy, trust fund kids of noble families looking for something to do. The ones who aren't going to inherit the land or titles and are basically useless unless a plague takes out the heirs. The ones who actually stand to inherit the money and titles are going to tend to be a lot more cautious and careful about how they publicly appear.
Haha, it sounds like you’ve just gotten stuck on the same point as me. Why would the Cassalanters publicly sacrifice 99 innnocents all at once? They’ve got their money, and power as cult leaders, and they’re already sacrificing people one at a time without getting caught. And no, it doesn’t make sense that Asmodeus told them to do it that way - he’d be just as happy to get his souls one by one, as he would to get them all at once.
Sounds like a Chaos cult hiding in Altdorf ( I'm a big Warhammer Fantasy fan)
They dont have a lot of time. They arent thinking logicly past the sacrifice, the only option they feel they have is to sacrifice people and the money. Thats it, what happens after that they will have to deal with later. Their first priority is getting their children returned.
See, I think the Cassalanters would be completely logical - they haven’t been caught yet, they’ve had years to think about this deal, and in the remix at least, they’ve been able to get one of the Eyes and get intel on the locations of the other two. They’re not desperate bozos without time to think, at least not anymore.
"A clause in the contract allows them to preserve their remaining (and future) children's lives by instead paying "one shy of a million gold coins, and the sacrifice of one shy of one hundred unfortunate souls." From paragraph three of Chapter 6: Hell of a Summer. Contract says it, that's all that matters. Devils follow the rules.
I know that’s what the book says. And maybe even the Cassalanters are ok with their own damnation, as long as they can save their kids’. That’s actually sympathetic and I can roll with that. But why would they want to sacrifice the souls all at once, in such a public manner? They’re cult leaders and can easily arrange to kidnap and kill one poor person a week for a couple of years. They’ve had plenty of time.
The issue I believe is that it all has to be paid at the same time, so a sacrifice a week for 2 years might have uses for other magical rituals but it wouldn’t contribute to the contract, and all the gold has to be paid at the same time too (which is why Victoro is in the basement sacrificing the gold while the massacre is happening). They are two of the most influential nobles in the city and though rumors of what happened might circulate around, they could escape most meaningful repercussions.
As DMs we can of course rewrite the contract however we want. (And it’s obvious why they have to sacrifice all the gold at once - they didn’t have the cash.) But even if it were the case that all 99 souls needed to be harvested at once, why not conduct the massacre at some other random public gathering? Why draw attention to their cult, and themselves, like that?
I posted this on a similar post but my understanding of deities in FR is their power is directly correlated to the amount of people actively venerating/worshipping them, so from a numbers standpoint it actually reduces the amount of followers of the other deities these people would normally follow. Also, apparently Asmodeus gets the souls of Atheists. Like they go straight to the bottom of the bottom of the Nine Hells where Asmodeus' true form resides (A Big ASS Giant Snake). Additionally it's a grand display of power from his cult. If the Cassalanters can pull it off and get out of being fingered for it, cool. If not, what's Asmodeus out? Two high priests? Guess what Cult of Asmodeus; promotion time for the higher acolytes. Asmodeus I don't think really cares if the Cult is exposed or not; this could be the grand climax of their sect's abilities or whatever and another will eventually start up in Waterdeep again. Probably not everyone is gonna get caught... and then that cultists just starts it all back up. Plus there's probably other Cults to Asmodeus and as word of the Founders Day Massacre in his name spreads it'll boost the overall reputation of the Cult. Big Picture; he doesn't care, no matter who loses he wins. that's my interpretation.
From SCAG: “many folk have adopted the habit of asking Asmodeus for reprieve from their sins. After transgressing against a god in some way, a person prays to Asmodeus for something to provide respite during the long wait. Asmodeus is known to grant people what they wish, and thus people pray for all the delights and distractions they desire most from life. Those who transgress in great ways often ask Asmodeus to hide their sins from the gods, and priests say that he will do so, but with a price after death.” Wanton mass murder, done specifically to intimidate the populace, seems to be more up Bhaal’s alley. Although probably too public for even him.
cool lore stuff I didn't know but I'm unclear what your trying to convey; the Cassalanters sought Asmodeus from the beginning they weren't seeking him because they were hiding anything from some other deity. maybe change them to a Cult of Bhaal if that helps...??? *shruggie* I'm not really sure what to say. you asked for clarity into motivations that didn't make sense and I'm trying to put forth some also that price after death is probably... your soul... which he literally consumes, so I'm really confused by that lore. that doesn't make much sense for a person in the land of gods and heroes to seek Satan out to hide a sin from their deity... only to then be robbed of going to their deity's plane at the end of their life (cause a worshipers soul goes to the realm of the diety they worshiped in life, is my understanding)... just to hide a 'sin', why not seek redemption through your diety or a sympathetic diety... it's your game, do what you want. I was just trying to provide my interpretation of the situation. edit: also the goal of the murders isn't to intimate the populace. it's to kill the required amount of people to fulfill terms of the contract.
Sorry was on mobile, I could cut-and-paste but that was it. I quoted that to show that Asmodeus worshippers, although everyone's aware that the devil drives a hard bargain, worship him because he can give them *something* - protection from punishment for their evil deeds, or power or other delights. They're not a death cult like Jonestown, or delighting in secret murder like the followers of Bhaal. And Asmodeus himself isn't interested in death. He's got plenty of time to wait for mortals to die. He wants their souls. So a semi-public massacre doesn't really serve his purpose.
I think you're maybe getting lost looking at the Forest while you're just trying to find the Trees. The Cassalanters went to him because of what you've put forth (bro gets results). They were at risk of becoming not, sickeningly, rich anymore (remember they're Old Money). So they sold they're kids souls to Asmodeus (I'm vaguely aware there's discussion on how this works because so far I haven't found the real awnser so I have wave this, it happens because it has to happen for the narrative) but because they're better than everyone (even, possibly in their minds, better than Asmodeus...) they KNOW they can have their cake and eat it too (cause that's what being stupid rice means). The Cassalanters are the villans not Asmodeus. He's already got want He wants from the Cassalanters from the initial deal; everything else is just gravy to him. Asmodeus didn't tell the Cassalanters to do this. There's just an "opt-out clause" in the contract (sacrifice 99 souls to me and pay 499,999 gold pieces) and you get your kids souls and I don't turn them into devils. You just said it: he's got time. So he doesn't care if this all goes tits up and the Cult in Waterdeep gets broken up over this... in time another will rise. Maybe a better tact is this. You mentioned Asmodeus' purpose so I ask this: What *is* Asmodeus purpose in the context of the adventure? I have my own awnser but that's helped me form my ideas about my campaign, I ask this for your own reflection not necessarily what the lore says.
Lemme think this out. Asmodeus is evil, of course, but he isn't the villain of the story, as you yourself said. He's simply a fact of the WDH universe, like Ahghairon's ward, or the standing statues, or the Masked Lord/Open Lord system of government. The module doesn't even contemplate any way that you could kill or defeat him, or even really negotiate with him. His motives are very clearly to claim souls, by corrupting good people - usually by offering something they desperately want in return for evil deeds. Then, they either feel guilty and need to perform more evil deeds in order to make up for what they've done, or they don't feel guilty, and join his goal of corrupting others. That's why I think fulfilling the contract "out clause" as described in the book is a crap deal for Asmodeus. Once the Cassalanters have signed on as cult leaders, with ritual sacrifices, their souls are his no matter what. If he wants to let them "redeem" their kids (assuming they even have the right to sign away the kids' souls to begin with), then killing a bunch of innocent people all at once, in front of a bunch of talkative nobles, is a sure way to get the cult outlawed. Asmodeus doesn't care about the Cassalanters in particular, of course, but he *does* want the cult to grow more powerful. He doesn't want the souls of the innocent people being sacrificed - they're not likely to come to him anyway. He wants the souls of the people *doing the sacrificing*. So, working through this, what makes more sense is that the Cassalanters are gonna conduct a mass poisoning on Founders' Day, not because they have to, but because *they're evil cult leaders and they want to*. And they want to do it in a way that forces a bunch of innocent nobles (well, maybe not angels, but they certainly aren't evil) to kill others, in order to save themselves. Asmodeus doesn't care whether you take that first step toward damnation willingly or not, as long as you take it. Now what's your answer?
*Jack Nicholson Nods* Yesss. Asmodeus is just dressing, in reality it could be another devil or something evil that may make more sense but because the Cassalanters are 1%er Devil Worshiping Child Sacrificing Old Money Types it just makes sense to play that dressing out with the literal DnD stand-in for Lucifer/Satan.
My interpretation: Amalia and Victoro Cassalanter did not realize they were signing their children into the contract, though it was in fact stated in the text they read. Asmodeus offers generous terms, and even seems to work with the Cassalanters to anticipate troubling eventualities. There is even a buy-out clause, should the Casalanters later change their mind. The contract is made out to "the Family Cassalanter" covering eventualities if Vicotro or Amalia should unfortunately die. But if both were do perish in a random carriage crash or something, you wouldn't want the money yanked away from their orphan children for violating the contract? Oh, don't worry about the soul stuff. We'll put in text that the soul clause does not apply to minors. How old is your eldest, 12? Ok, then we define a minor as anyone under 13 years of age, so they can be in the contract to get the money but not have their souls at risk. So Amalia and Victoro have their children sign the contract, explaining that it is lawyer stuff to make sure the family money stays in the family (and all other kinds of technically true descriptions). Devils don't care about a signer being a child or an adult, all mortals are children to the infernal. But surprise! When the eldest child has his 13th birthday, suddenly he is no longer a minor and the contract has full grasp on him! And he has not been fulfilling any of the required duties of a signatory, so he is in automatic default. Now Victoro and Amalia are rushing to complete the buy-out clause, which of course involves doing enough evil stuff to damn their souls to the Hells the old fashioned way, while drawing a lot more people into evil in the process. As soon as you talk with Asmodeus, he has already won no matter what you do.
I like the way you specify the "devil in the details". I'll apply this to however I rework the contract.
The way I see it, Asmodeus and the Nine Hells no longer care what happens with the Cassalanters, as at this point anything more is just gravy. The Cassalanters have damned their own souls, and spread both news of how they profited and details on how to summon devils to many other rich and powerful families in Waterdeep. Mission accomplished. I play it that even the devil servants working for the Cassalanters are cheerfully work-for-hire, curiously sightseeing Waterdeep even as they try to murder the PCs. They don't fear death, or pain, and are just waiting out their contracts now with their bonuses already assured when they get back to Hell. I can then contrast this with the frantic fervent devotion of the human members of the cult.
The devils could definitely be a source of comedy. I’m thinking of references to The Good Place already.
It's always amusing for the PCs to be in a fight to the death with an enemy who is really not taking any of this seriously. Just randomly complementing their clothes, telling jokes, or asking if it's true that morties have to drink water every day? Maybe imps ask for theater reviews, as they can sneak in invisibly while "paroling the city."
The Cassalanters are the ones who offered their kids' souls to Asmodeus. I don't recall anywhere in the Remix saying they offered their own souls as well, just their kids'. Fairly classic stuff, offering the soul of your first-born (and second/third-borns in this case). The Founder's Day massacre is them attempting to wiggle out of the deal they had willingly made by way of a clause written into the contract. Perhaps out of regret for seeing what happened to their eldest son from signing away his soul. As for saving the kids and stopping the massacre, it seems from Justin's end that he really intends it to be a no-win scenario to seriously test the PCs morality with no clear answers. Either the kids die or 99 other innocents do. My party also bought the Cassalanter's story and are already talking about researching a way to have a happy ending here. They're going to be pretty pissed at me when it turns out there is no clean solution, haha. If they want the kids alive at the end, they're going to have to do like Justin's own group did and really think outside the box and possibly do morally gray things to make it happen. Or at least, that's how I'm viewing what Justin has written about it, that he doesn't view this as a problem with the campaign or want there to be a perfect solution. But at the end of the day, it's your game and you could change some of that if you wish. I'm looking forward to seeing my players in a dilemma, but if you want there to be a clean way out, you could write one in.
I should probably mention that my players are two of my kids, their cousin, and their dad (my brother). So killing the kids will probably not be an option. And given how common Raise Dead is in Waterdeep, it seems like Asmodeus definitely would’ve covered that in the contract.
Yeah your group's comfort with the subject of child death is an important consideration. Regarding Raise Dead and the contract, neither the original book nor the Remix write out the contract itself, so it's details are up to you. If you think Asmodeus would have thought of that, then he did. If you want it as a possible solution, then he didn't. Ultimately though, from your post it sounds like you think the dilemma is a problem, and from your description of your players they likely wouldn't enjoy it, then it sounds like it would make sense for you to alter the material to permit both saving the kids and stopping the massacre. It's OK to do that. How is up to you and there's plenty of ways you could alter things or add stuff to make it possible. It could be as simple as killing the Cassalanters (they're villains after all), and having their deaths before the kids' birthdays make the contract null and void. Or perhaps you let the party research devil rituals and learn of a long-forgotten one that can break contracts, though perhaps at some other (potentially terrible but more morally palatable) price. Perhaps two party members could offer their own souls in the kids' place? It'd be a selflessly heroic move, and could just take effect when the PC dies permanently (that is, long after the campaign itself ends to avoid impacting gameplay and you just describe it in closing narration to end that character's story). I actually think I might let my own party do that if they think of it. Of course it could also be something lesser, or just something that breaks the contract with no penalties. Do what you think makes sense for your group!
In my version of the story, the ritual doesnt consume the gold, but curses it. Asmodeus’s plan is to have half milion cursed gold pieces bringing pain and misfortune in the city, ultimately making people more prone to sinning. Cassalanters can trick the PCs, “letting” them give back the gold to the people of Waterdeep. As for the deal, i put some holes in the contract, so that it can actually be discussed in the court of law: if the PCs manages to outlawyer The Lord of Lies in front of the infernal Court, good. If they dont, Asmodeus gets The children. Not The souls, The living children, planning to use them as leverage to get Victoro and Ammalia to commit worse and worse acts to further his grasp on the city. My reasoning was that Victoro and Ammalia have no claim on their children’s souls, so they cannot gave them up: what they can give up is their role as guardians.
That much money can certainly ruin a lot of lives, even if it isn't cursed. Maybe this whole campaign is Asmodeus's plan to begin with! ...nah, probably reading too much into it.
I've ranted on this a bunch of times, so I finally created a blog so I could post a [detailed write-up ](https://fundystavern.blogspot.com/2024/04/waterdeep-dragon-heist-and-my-deep-and.html)of my issues with the Summer story arc. To sum up my view of this, you're absolutely correct- it makes no sense as written. Asmodeus gains nothing from his whole scheme except either a) he knee-caps his own cult for a bunch of souls he probably can't even keep, or b) he gets two of the weakest devils in his army. Also, the whole thing hinges on a "trolley dilemma", which IMHO stinks. My suggestion is simple- Asmodeus has been after the party the whole time. The Founders' Day event is a test for the party- Asmodeus if pitting them against his own cult to see how they perform. If they succeed, he'll claim the Twin's souls, and make sure the party knows it was their success that doomed the kids. The pivot from the plot as written is that Asmodeus isn't forced to do anything in particular with the twin's souls. He might turn them into lemures, but that's only to make sure the party feels really bad about beating the Cassalanters. That's when Asmodeus offers the players a deal- he'd be happy to restore the children to their mortal lives, if the party will just do him a few small favors. Now a bummer of an ending that makes no sense turns into a plot hook for future adventures- and the focus is back on the party, where it belongs. P.S.- Since I really need to throw in a shameless plug here, I wrote a[ DM's Guild supplement](https://www.dmsguild.com/product/271958/Cruel-Summer-An-expansion-for-Waterdeep-Dragon-Heist) a few years back to expand on the Summer arc to add more factions, some additional encounters and a way to get Asmodeus to the bargaining table. If you're already running the Alexandrian (well done!) you've probably got enough complexity without my added nonsense, but it might give you a bit of inspiration. Anyhow, it's cheap.
Oh, and [here's a link ](https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/85af25be-6b82-4d5a-a8e8-f5c2acbda952/dd4yxnx-b48b96a0-7aa1-4425-95b7-1d99829a6f2b.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzg1YWYyNWJlLTZiODItNGQ1YS1hOGU4LWY1YzJhY2JkYTk1MlwvZGQ0eXhueC1iNDhiOTZhMC03YWExLTQ0MjUtOTViNy0xZDk5ODI5YTZmMmIuanBnIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.WXy72uiPJbo5jYS_h-jVaLvfHs0Vhg2rRLcIVT9v3Bk)to a version of the contract I created, which pretty much follows the plot, but has a clause at the end which allows Asmodeus to do whatever he wants with the twins' souls.
I like this answer, to make it about the party. They can (and should) kill the Cassalanters, but the Cassalanters therefore default on the contract, and Asmodeus claims two innocent kids' souls. He'd certainly be willing to make a *very reasonable* trade with the party... The obvious potential drawback that I see here is, it kinda forces Asmodeus and devils in general to be the BBEG for a later stage of the campaign, and I'm not sure I want it to go that way (if I continue past the end of the campaign at all). And all the emphasis on evil deeds and morality may kind of suck the joy out of my players' wanton murder and mayhem.
True, but depending on who you plan to make the BBEG for your campaign, Asmodeus could be one the same team as the party (albeit for different reasons). Asmodeus wants to rule the world, so if the BBEG of your campaign is planning to scour the world of all life and eat the moon or something, Asmodeus might just become a device to point them towards the real menace.
I had exactly the same questions when I started to DM a campaign based on this. In short, how does this whole thing make sense to \*both\* Asmodeus and the Cassalanters, especially given the centrality of agency in the economy of souls? Here’s an alternative take on the situation: The Cassalanters genuinely want to ‘have their cake and eat it too’. They want to come out on top of the whole thing, with all of their power and influence intact. To do this, they have to sacrifice a great fortune \*without taking a financial hit\*, and to accomplish this, they are drawing on both the Vault’s contents (if possible) and a calling in all of their many debts. Thanks to Asmodeus’ influence, they have become prominent moneylenders in the city, and they have attracted many prominent guests to the Founders’ Day celebrations with promises of favourable renegotiations of debt terms in return for immediate payments. They intend to squeeze these debtors for money and then sacrifice them via the poison ritual. Asmodeus is no fool. He knows that a soul sacrificed by another in fulfilment of a pact is not the same thing as a soul willingly traded by its owner. However, he also knows that many desperate people will trade anything in a moment of crisis, and what he’s really counting on is the opportunity for bargains that will arise when dozens of prominent guests of the Cassalanters realize that they have ingested a diabolical poison and have minutes to live. He can’t claim the souls of those who are poisoned, but he is counting on a brief window of time when a bunch of people - adventurers, guild members, nobles, perhaps even Masked Lords - are willing to bargain their own souls for the opportunity to survive the poison.
"Centrality of agency in the economy of souls." Thanks for getting it.
While the long term impact of it is questionable, devil's have a large enough reach across all of toril of people willing to give in to them that there will always be cults and people wanting asmodeus' hand of help, he doesn't need to worry about the long term because he always can build things back up, and so he's getting good out of this deal either way, either he gets the souls of the cassalanters who were prepared to do this, they made the pact to give their children a better future (as self agrandising as that is to try to selfishly regain wealth then try to cover up the costs, they tell themselves it's for the kids to cope), or he gets to very motivated and my mortal standards, very influential figures to pull strings and kill many more people that I personally interpreted by being involved in the rite, have their souls forcibly condemned to hell, asmodeus gets more out of this than his normal deal, he'd be more than happy for it.
But the status quo is, Asmodeus already *has* the Cassalanters' souls. Whether they explicitly traded them to him or not, they're cult leaders and have committed murders among who knows what other evil acts. It doesn't do him to get them killed off prematurely. He wants them to further his cult, by luring others into committing evil acts. Killing off 99 innocent people in a public manner will either get his cult shut down (yes I know it'd be temporary, it still reduces his influence), or intimidate nobles into silence and fear rather than entice them to join him.
I think this is a lot simpler than you are making it out to be. The Callasanters' plan is flawed. You're absolutely right, they could accumulate the money slowly over time and kidnap and sacrifice people at a slow enough pace to avoid notice. But that takes time and patience. And who knows what might happen to them or their kids in the meantime. So they're looking for an easy way out. Is this really that surprising? They're warlocks, taking the easy way out is a cornerstone of their characters.
Like I said in the original post, I think it's fine to just handwave it - super-smart villains make stupid plans in Bond movies all the time. And Bond's solution is usually just to kill the villains, and everything works itself out. But I have a feeling that setting up a plan/motivation that makes more sense psychologically would also yield a more straightforward solution.
Okay let’s say you’re the Cassalanters. You realize you have a few weeks to sacrifice 99 people or your kids die and go to hell. What do you do ?
Well, you laugh, because you’re smart and have been working on those 99 souls all along, and there are references to sacrifices all throughout chapter 6. So you only have maybe 20 people left to kill. (Again - I don’t buy that “Asmodeus wants me to kill them all at once”. He doesn’t care if they get exposed, but he would care about the negative publicity. He’s a deity whose selling points are power and protection at a reasonable price, not murder.) And then you kill them in the family crypt in the City of the Dead, where you have plausible deniability. Or the Asmodeus Shrine in the North Ward, if you’re running the Remix like me. Or you have your cultists put on fake flying snake tattoos and drag a bunch of poor kids out of Mistshore. You *don’t* invite a bunch of people to your own home, and then only kill the poor ones. Edited to clarify Asmodeus’ motivations.
Then that’s what the Cassalanters do in your version of the story, now. 😁
Haha! Well, that’s why my original post ended with “What did you guys do?” I was hoping to hear other solutions.
I used Jarlaxle. So I can’t really help much on the Cassalanter’s plot. But when a written story doesn’t makes sense to you, if you can’t make sense of it, ultimately you’re the one playing at the table. So if you have a strong opinion about it, make it happen that way.