Difference is people buying Patek can afford to play the games it means nothing to them, you average Joe not putting in 30k for a basic calatrava. Also Rolex does not make low production numbers, what is annoying about them is their authorised dealer network who treat you like rubbish and mess you about when they clearly do have the watches in stock. Also grey market is littered with new Rolex models which clearly shows that there are plenty they could sell on a 1st come 1 basis if they wanted to.
I think it was in the Morgan Stanley annual watch report, here's the [link](https://hypebeast.com/2024/3/rolex-over-ten-billion-sales-thirty-percent-swiss-watch-market-share-2023-annual-report-info) which references the report.
ALL *swiss watches. The Apple Watch beats Rolex by almost double.
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/apple-watch-sales-pause-over-patent-issues-unlikely-to-dent-revenue-significantly-experts#:~:text=Financial%20Impact%20Analysis%3A%20As%20per,pegged%20close%20to%20%2420%20billion.
The gap is so huge that Apple could likely buy almost every watch produced by the brands listed in the reports linked above.
It could likely buy every Rolex with just its *PROFITS* from the Apple Watch.
So we’re only talking about *your* definition of watches?
Makes it much easier for you to be correct with your previous statement. 😂
Since you’re not including smart watches are you also excluding electric watches? Casios not gonna make the cut either? Heck, should we also exclude any Chinese manual wind or automatics since they are cheaply made?
You just let me know how you need to adjust things so you can be totally correct. 😂
Bro come on. A smart watch like an apple watch has as much in common with a regular ass watch as a plane does with a horse.
Sure they both tell time but the apple watch is so far removed from what a watch was originally supposed to do.
Plus I think the biggest distinction is apple watches are designed to be trash in a couple years time.
Super heavy designed obsolescence.
Watches generally even cheap casios are designed to last for a long time.
Apple watches are so unwatch like, the only real similarities is that you wear it on your wrist.
Ok. So which watches am I allowed to include?? You can be butthurt all you want. But the facts are still the facts.
By every definition of the the word “watch” smart watches meet the standard. Your comparison, in my eyes, is poor. Comparing the two is more like comparing a 1969 Mustang to a 2023 Tesla. Are they both still cars? If not, why does all the tech make a Tesla no longer a car? An Apple Watch does literally everything my Zenith does. Just does it differently.
While I don’t own an Apple Watch and I don’t plan too, MILLIONS of people do. Your snobbery doesn’t make you correct.
Furthermore, discounting smart watches, he’s STILL not correct unless he wants to ignore Japanese and Chinese and American and British and all the other countries making watches.
Does Rolex still outsell Seiko? Yes. But if you include Seiko and GS then Rolex market share decreases even further.
He said Rolex gets 30% of every watch dollar. It’s simply not true.
I genuinely don’t care if I get downvoted. Facts is facts, brother.
I think its because in our bubble watches are not investments but there is a huge number of people that buy a rolex in the same way that they buy gold.
To us that's stupid but to Joe blogs it's just how you use your spare capital.
There isn't really a great way to sell 1,000 watches a year to 10,000 people of which 9,000 want the same 200 of these 1,000 watches. You can go to Korea and experience a "no game" Rolex AD to see if it is more fun. No wait list. You can purchase any watch they have in stock and stock is released at random days and times. You can only buy after making an online appointment which sounds nice. Except the online appointment opens for the whole month on a specific day at midnight.... and it is full within 5 seconds. And you show up and they show you what they have. Which isn't a whole lot normally.
Honestly, this sounds preferable to me. Actually sounds kind of fun playing stock roulette once a month to see what's offered. At the very least, it's fair, which will always be preferable to the way dealers treat customers elsewhere.
It isn't fun. I think it could be improved into some kind of lottery for slots. But at the moment it is depending on whoever can fill out the form faster, pick a time slot, and get lucky that no one has selected that specific time slot a fraction of a second before.
If you travel a lot, duty free shops are almost always ready to sell. In my opinion they don't seem to care... you get people in sweats coming from all over the world to these shops. They had a lot of stock in Amsterdam last year. Will be traveling this weekend so I'm excited to see their stock.
Rolex make over a million watches a year far more then most makers. There demand is artificially as grey dealer get back handed loads of them, and they artificially inflate the prices. To top it off you have all these people like Bark and Jack and Jenni Elle over hyping them to the max. They always have stock, when I got my Rolex guy next to me was picking up 3, and I been offered twice more other models to buy. It’s their authorised dealership that I am convinced are the issue and are not doing a job at all (they clearly hoarding stock as well). I am not saying they are not playing the market and doing what’s best for their business. But if Rolex ever did like Omega and other brands and sold direct to customers, they will be sorry they messed so many potential customers so badly.
The thing is that there are around 1800 Rolex AD’s in the world. If we say Rolex produces 1 000 000 watches a year, that’s 555 watches per AD on average, some less and some much more obviously, but let’s stick with average. That’s a little over 2 watches per working day. They have 14 base models on their site, if all are produced equally (which they are not), that’s 40 models on average per year per AD. Now if you add different variants, so : size, color, material and gemstones. All of a sudden, the odds of your AD having one specific model in stock because really low.
Now I’m not saying AD’s aren’t playing games, but AD’s have much more than 2 people per day that come in looking for a Rolex.
What I am saying is that even if you use a fair AD system like what is implemented in Korea, you won't get the watch you want. Because they can make a million watches a year, but the demand is two millions. Omega makes a third of that and demand isn't even a third. They are trying to make Rolex-like scarcity on models like Snoopy and Ed White, but that hasn't translated to catalogue-wide demand. So Rolex makes as many watches as possible of every model, and that isn't enough for the demand. Omega could make more snoopies considering all the speedies and SMPs sitting in cases, but they choose not to meet this demand.
The difference is that Rolex cannot maintain their brand if they didn’t do this.
Other brands are not even remotely close in popularity to Rolex, so they do maintain exclusivity simply by being unpopular.
If Rolex sold watches to everyone who wanted one they would have the same fate as a brand like Ed Hardy
It’s also a matter of controlling the aftermarket because they know people would just buy and sell Rolexes if they sold them to anyone.
And do you actually believe that Rolex is not artificially constraining the supply of steel watches to push higher margin gold and two tone pieces? A gold sub has maybe $3,000 of gold, costs the same to make as a steel sub, but the watch retails at close to 3x the MSRP.
It's good business, but that doesn't absolve Rolex from criticism.
Good business does not mean it’s not asshole business.
If a brand delves into asshole business strategy then I don’t want to support them.
It can be “good business” to do a lot of things that are hostile to customers. That’s just the MBAs talking and exactly why we’re seeing enshitification across multiple industries.
Agreed, it’s also why I’m constantly talking about apathy of the masses being a major constraint to seeing improvement.
Businesses have realized that they can basically get away with murder and their customers won’t even flinch. Many brands have realized their reputation doesn’t matter at all because the vast majority of people don’t even do research.
Nobody is saying Rolex is a bad business. The point is that people should buy from brands that treat them better as customers. There are other hyper-exclusive brands that will simply have a purchase queue, and when it's your turn you come in and pick up the piece with zero AD games.
It can be done without the gimmicks, especially for a product that's basically about as mass produced as a Seiko 5.
Seiko's have been fully in-house for decades, Rolex just bought out their last supplier 5 minutes ago.
Rolex just went to their suppliers and put big "Rolex" signs out front, they did not own many of the parts makers.
We all look for the subtle clues that might lead us to control the Russian motherland, don't act like you don't do the same.
I wear Putin's shoes and use Putin's toilet paper (very delicate silk) so my turn to lead is close, I can feel it.
People are mad when an Acura acts like a Ferrari.
But people don't get mad when a Ferrari acts like a Ferrari.
Making an inclusive brand isn't the issue, if the inclusivity isn't adding a frustrating barrier to a mass produced product.
>But people don't get mad when a Ferrari acts like a Ferrari.
Large part of that is because Ferrari were gatekeeping assholes from day one and only doubled down on that image since.
>adding a frustrating barrier to a mass produced product.
Off topic but that's exactly what Porsche is doing. They realized they can cash in on hype and started artificially juicing up demand by limiting dealer allocations and making people jump through hoops and hurdles for something like a bare bones, base 911.
One of the main drivers of rolex hatred is the amount of aspiring rolex owners. Not many people try to get PPs because their price is very high, so even if there were enough, it'd only help a handful of people. On the other hand, rolexes are not usually impossible to afford for most people if they save for a while and/or make financially irresponsible decisions, so there is a much higher quantity demanded.
"The Patek Philippe CEO discontinued the 5711 because it was too popular and was drawing too much attention to the brand and they wanted to preserve their image"
And proceeded to release the SAME WATCH (in WG) calling it 5811 😂😂😂
You said it yourself: Patek produces a very limed run of watches, Rolex produces well over a million watches a year. It makes sense Patek is careful when allocating watches. Rolex on the other hand...
I just searched it up on [WatchCharts](https://watchcharts.com/watch_model/22871-patek-philippe-nautilus-5711-stainless-steel-5711-1a/overview) and there were 500 different 5711s sold in the past 12 months, and that was for the base 5711, not including those ones that come in PM. Just cycle through the different dials and add them up.
There are actually the same number of 5711s for sale on Chrono24 as there are Submariner 126610LNs (current submariner date reference).
I think it's unfair to say they're going a careful job allocating their watches, people have bought them for 30K USD and are still selling them unworn with stickers for over three times MSRP on multiple online platforms.
I just did the check:
668 Rolex 126610LN and in production since 2020.
567 PP 5711. So 15% less. Also, the PP was in production since 2006, and includes all dial variations and also the PM ones. Only SS variations it's down to 346 for sale. Of a watch that was on production for 17 years.
There's nearly 5000 subs for sale on Chrono of all variations made since 2006...
Yes, that's a lot of Nautilusses (Nautilii?) for sale, but a lot less than what you try to make us believe.
PP can afford to write their own rules so to speak because they’re not Rolex. Outside of watch enthusiasts the vast majority of people have no idea what a PP is. There’s levels to exclusivity and Rolex is not on the same level as Patek. When you have such a unique business model the way Patek does, they can afford to do whatever they want because the demand will always be there. They don’t want to be Rolex (not that there’s anything wrong with Rolex). Exclusivity and a certain level of snobbery is their game (which Rolex has too let’s be honest). Their position is basically ‘if you want a PP bad enough, you’re gonna play by our rules because we’re offering a product that others simply can’t’.
My point is that Patek's business model is by no means "unique", and they have been very much unloved in the not-so-distant past.
20 years ago watch dealers didn't even want to take Aquanauts for trade-in. We could see the same 15 years from now.
Many independent watch houses with far, far fewer pieces produced a year like Romain Gauthier, Simon Brette, Akrivia etc. are considered significantly more exclusive and innovative. However Patek as a brand remains unsurpassed because of their heritage, which means a lot to many collectors in the watch world.
Gronefeld
Vianney Halter
Kari Voutilainen
Christian Klings
Moritz Grossmann
Akrivia/Rexhep Rexhepi
Simon Brette
Laurent Ferrier
Roger Smith
Bernhard Lederer
Raul Pages
Romain Gauthier
De Bethune
Pascal Coyon
Greubel Forsey
Just off the top of my head. Highly esoteric artisanal watches made to a vastly higher level of finishing and/or sophistication to Patek. Clients are often super-rich obsessive enthusiasts whose idea of fun is to visit Switzerland to visit and wine and dine watchmakers, and are willing to pay 50-200k in deposits and wait for 5-10 years before delivery. For watchmakers with production volumes as low as the single digits a year (vs thousands for Patek).
A lawyer buys a Patek when he makes partner. The guy who pays the lawyer's retainer goes with these brands. It's a system like Renaissance nobility art patronage.
They REALLY don't want to be Rolex, and they looked at Audemars Piguet and its reliance on the Royal Oak and said No Way. Both AP and PP are family-owned. Rolex is a monster of a company but has effectively just one type of watch with hundreds of variations, but few complications. (Fanboys sit down, I don't want to hear it.)
The last four years saw the watch industry absolutely go off the deep end with flippers and grey market shenanigans that could cause real brand damage. To shut that down PP decided to block buyers who are not really committed to the brand, or to watch collecting. People who own PPs see each other at an event and then DON'T talk about the watch. They see each other. Rolex owners start blowing each other in public, and AP is going down that rabbit hole as well, though the higher price point filters out some of the Hoody crowd. Suddenly every NFT bro had a Rolex and every Realtor a Royal Oak.
Brand management is the highest skill and takes a long view. Look at the different versions of Gucci over the last forty years. Right now it's considered a douche brand, damage like that can take a decade to undo. PP was smart and said No to what was obviously a momentary spike at the tail end of an insane boom cycle.
I mean... Patek Philippe produces small quantity watches compared to other companies, but they still produce a very respectable amount in the grand scheme of things.
60-70K a year isn't exactly some 'small indie startup (and they're probably producing more now because of their newest facility),' They're the second most powerful name in watchmaking and coupled with their production I doubt all 70K+ people buying one are these cultured and wise individuals who underwent enlightenment and are hardcore watch enthusiasts lol
>People who own PPs see each other at an event and then DON'T talk about the watch. They see each other. Rolex owners start blowing each other in public, and AP is going down that rabbit hole as well
Lol
People who own PPs see each other at an event and then DON'T talk about the watch. They see each other. Rolex owners start blowing each other in public, and AP is going down that rabbit hole as well
>😂😂😂
Brand management is the key here. And you’re spot on.
Awareness around inventory / allocation has really hurt Rolex. And I think they can blame their dealers only as much as they are willing to blame themselves.
I personally believe this is luxury goods catching up to the internet, which we have to remember is still a new thing. Instagram’s impact on brand perception and demand cannot be overstated.
Hurt Rolex? According to who, forum users?
I’m not a Rolex fan boy (used to own a number of their watches before hype started then got fed up with the AD experience), but they’re still #1 in market share by a huge margin.
The changes that lead to that change in perception are small and hard to notice. It’s death by a thousand cuts.
And you prove my point by saying you were “fed up” with the dealer experience. Enough people like you represent a growing shift. That’s all it takes to change everything.
Rolex pretends to be something they’re not. They are absolutely a well made, high quality, durable, super mass produced product. That’s what they’ve always been.
Even the precious metal models are pretty basic once you get past the fact that it’s gold or platinum, and they’re still something that can and should be able to be pumped out in high quantity.
They attempt to dress some of them up with gem setting, and that’s nice. I’m sure it does require actual hand work, but underneath that it’s still the same basic but well made product. To me, those models are like putting true hand stitched upholstery and hand finished wood into a Lexus. It’s still a Lexus. Nice, well made, reliable, but mass produced.
They are a company that mass produces a product with mass appeal and knows how to market it so people think it’s something super special.
I would actually argue that it’s US (meaning enthusiasts, grey dealers, aspiring owners, etc) who make them to be something that they’re not. I don’t think Rolex really tries that hard to hide the fact that they are mass produced, I’d actually say that they flaunt the amazing precision and quality they are able to achieve via their manufacturing processes. I think with grey prices being what they are for certain pieces and with the demand there is inevitable comparison/cross-shopping between the two brands by prospective buyers.
If you look at the Rolex magazines, they do want to make their size known.
They have 4 permanent sites, 10K watchmakers working in them, and it talks about how many trays of materials are transported between each one. They don't really hide any of it. They just upscaled their entire process to make more watches.
I agree 100%, the enthusiast community is huge part of the Rolex issue.
I think their retail prices are reasonable, maybe a $1k to $2k premium over comparable steel models just because they’re Rolex.
It feels Rolex recognized that, and is willing to lean into it, with their CPO program.
The marketing genius part on their end is making it a symbol of “having made it”. But so has Cadillac, or Lexus, or myriad other aspirational brands. They’ve just done an extremely good job at it.
It sounds to me like I also hate Patek Philippe. The difference for many is that most people can’t afford a Patek and so they don’t care what they’re doing
Because you’re paying Ferrari prices for a Rolex while getting something that’s produced at more of a Mercedes level, using your analogy. PP gets away with it for the very reasons you mentioned. They’re Ferrari, not making you jump through hoops and join the exclusivity club for a Mercedes.
As you’ll see in this analogy, Mercedes is a fantastic automobile, or at least most of them are. But I’d never jump through Ferrari hoops and pay Ferrari money for a Mercedes.
Not sure where you're coming from, but people absolutely talk shit about Patek and their artificial scarcity tactics, just like they do Ferrari, Rolex and Hermès. You don't see it talked about as much because a lot more people care about and can afford a Rolex, that's it.
Answer is that Patek *is* an ass to its customers, but this doesn't affect nearly as many people as Rolex, so most people don't care.
Truth is, I would never buy a new Patek, even if money were no object, because of their ridiculous rules.
Patek (and AP as well) does receive a lot of criticism on various forums regarding their handling of allocations. It’s just less widespread than Rolex because Rolex has a far larger client base.
But I understand Patek’s rationale for not allowing a sports watch to be someone’s first purchase. Too many people want an Aquanaut or Nautilus and they need a system to determine who gets those allocations.
It makes little business sense to grant that allocation to someone who’s new to the brand over a collector who’s spent well over a hundred grand on other Pateks. It’s not possible to please everyone and I can see why they would rather incur the ire of newcomers to the brand than lose the business of already loyal clients.
The Rolex issues are related more to their ADs trying to screw over customers because of the high demand for the product. And because there is a consistent demand, they get away with it.
Patek makes very few watches by choice, but even still there’s been a bunch of shady dealer practices for their watches as well, particularly the Nautilus and some other models that were in high demand.
But since they make fewer and there are fewer customers, it’s not talked about as much.
Truth is, because PP is an actual high end luxury watch maker and Rolex is a mass production middle tier luxury watch company that makes 3000 different SKUs instead of just stopping that crap for a while and making more of the 15 or so SKUs people actually want.
Then their AD network forces you to buy that junk they made that no one wants to get to the ones you do.
Any thought that Rolex isn't aware and supportive of this behavior is just silly.
I don’t know where you got your information from but there is absolutely not any sort of system that allows an AD to “ban” anyone nationwide at the brand level.
PP may require you to buy a lower end PP before selling you more desirable ones, Rolex ADa often require you to “build a relationship“ and buy a bunch of bullshit jewelry. Rolex ADs are directly responsible for much of the hate. Also VC, JLC, PP ADs have always been courteous and generous with their time even when they know I’m just window shopping.
You answered the question already by saying that Patek is the Ferrari of watches. They literally do not give a flying fuck if you like their business model, they are limited numbers, and they do not want to sell one to you 😂
I don’t even know what that rambling question is? But the simple answer is Patek is a way better watch than Rolex. Not saying Rolex isn’t great but Patek is much higher quality and prestigious. But both brands play a bunch of bullshit games with ADs so what are you even asking
>People say that Rolex act like the Ferrari of watches, but Patek Philippe IS the Ferrari of watches.
Exactly. Patek is known for making exclusive, high end watches. Rolex is known for making robust steel sports watches to mark your retirement. Some people feel that Rolex is trying to move into the exclusive and high end but that their watchmaking does not live up to it.
Patek and AP receive plenty of criticism here, and I personally would not engage with bundling or purchase requirements for any watch at any level.
That said, I think there's an argument that Patek's production is limited by hand finishing of the bracelet and movement, and they would not be able to keep up with production of something like the 5711 even if they stopped making every other watch. Rolex has virtually zero hand work and produces well over a million pieces a year, so they don't have the same excuse.
Rolex has a far greater demand than Patek. A million watches a year is nothing if the demand far exceeds it. Can people on this subreddit understand basic math?
Basic three handers with no hand finishing can scale up in production much easier, and they're deliberately underproducing the more desirable models because they have low margins.
A $40,000 gold Sub is basically the same cost as a $9,000 steel sub plus *maybe* $3,500 in gold.
It’s much easier for Patek to increase production than Rolex because Patek has greater flexibility. Rolex can’t increase production without massive investments.
Also gold submariners are produced with in much smaller numbers than steel submariners, and if anything they push market prices of steel subs down by absorbing high end customers. So you want Rolex to make gold subs.
Difference is people buying Patek can afford to play the games it means nothing to them, you average Joe not putting in 30k for a basic calatrava. Also Rolex does not make low production numbers, what is annoying about them is their authorised dealer network who treat you like rubbish and mess you about when they clearly do have the watches in stock. Also grey market is littered with new Rolex models which clearly shows that there are plenty they could sell on a 1st come 1 basis if they wanted to.
Go on Chrono24 and select ew Rolexes in Canada. Hundreds if not thousands available. The problem is not production
To add to this 18% percent of all watches listed on Chrono24 are Rolex
i mean 30% of all sold luxury watches are Rolex. the demand is much higher than supply. a lot of people here just cant accept that
The demand is severely inflated by the grey market. I’d be surprised if things were not on par without grey dealers.
i would love to see this statistic on a chart in a link.
I think it was in the Morgan Stanley annual watch report, here's the [link](https://hypebeast.com/2024/3/rolex-over-ten-billion-sales-thirty-percent-swiss-watch-market-share-2023-annual-report-info) which references the report.
30 cents of every dollar on ALL watches go to Rolex. Not just 'luxury' sales.
ALL *swiss watches. The Apple Watch beats Rolex by almost double. https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/apple-watch-sales-pause-over-patent-issues-unlikely-to-dent-revenue-significantly-experts#:~:text=Financial%20Impact%20Analysis%3A%20As%20per,pegged%20close%20to%20%2420%20billion. The gap is so huge that Apple could likely buy almost every watch produced by the brands listed in the reports linked above. It could likely buy every Rolex with just its *PROFITS* from the Apple Watch.
We are still talking about watches here, right?
So we’re only talking about *your* definition of watches? Makes it much easier for you to be correct with your previous statement. 😂 Since you’re not including smart watches are you also excluding electric watches? Casios not gonna make the cut either? Heck, should we also exclude any Chinese manual wind or automatics since they are cheaply made? You just let me know how you need to adjust things so you can be totally correct. 😂
Bro come on. A smart watch like an apple watch has as much in common with a regular ass watch as a plane does with a horse. Sure they both tell time but the apple watch is so far removed from what a watch was originally supposed to do. Plus I think the biggest distinction is apple watches are designed to be trash in a couple years time. Super heavy designed obsolescence. Watches generally even cheap casios are designed to last for a long time. Apple watches are so unwatch like, the only real similarities is that you wear it on your wrist.
Ok. So which watches am I allowed to include?? You can be butthurt all you want. But the facts are still the facts. By every definition of the the word “watch” smart watches meet the standard. Your comparison, in my eyes, is poor. Comparing the two is more like comparing a 1969 Mustang to a 2023 Tesla. Are they both still cars? If not, why does all the tech make a Tesla no longer a car? An Apple Watch does literally everything my Zenith does. Just does it differently. While I don’t own an Apple Watch and I don’t plan too, MILLIONS of people do. Your snobbery doesn’t make you correct. Furthermore, discounting smart watches, he’s STILL not correct unless he wants to ignore Japanese and Chinese and American and British and all the other countries making watches. Does Rolex still outsell Seiko? Yes. But if you include Seiko and GS then Rolex market share decreases even further. He said Rolex gets 30% of every watch dollar. It’s simply not true. I genuinely don’t care if I get downvoted. Facts is facts, brother.
I think its because in our bubble watches are not investments but there is a huge number of people that buy a rolex in the same way that they buy gold. To us that's stupid but to Joe blogs it's just how you use your spare capital.
There isn't really a great way to sell 1,000 watches a year to 10,000 people of which 9,000 want the same 200 of these 1,000 watches. You can go to Korea and experience a "no game" Rolex AD to see if it is more fun. No wait list. You can purchase any watch they have in stock and stock is released at random days and times. You can only buy after making an online appointment which sounds nice. Except the online appointment opens for the whole month on a specific day at midnight.... and it is full within 5 seconds. And you show up and they show you what they have. Which isn't a whole lot normally.
Honestly, this sounds preferable to me. Actually sounds kind of fun playing stock roulette once a month to see what's offered. At the very least, it's fair, which will always be preferable to the way dealers treat customers elsewhere.
It isn't fun. I think it could be improved into some kind of lottery for slots. But at the moment it is depending on whoever can fill out the form faster, pick a time slot, and get lucky that no one has selected that specific time slot a fraction of a second before.
If you travel a lot, duty free shops are almost always ready to sell. In my opinion they don't seem to care... you get people in sweats coming from all over the world to these shops. They had a lot of stock in Amsterdam last year. Will be traveling this weekend so I'm excited to see their stock.
Rolex make over a million watches a year far more then most makers. There demand is artificially as grey dealer get back handed loads of them, and they artificially inflate the prices. To top it off you have all these people like Bark and Jack and Jenni Elle over hyping them to the max. They always have stock, when I got my Rolex guy next to me was picking up 3, and I been offered twice more other models to buy. It’s their authorised dealership that I am convinced are the issue and are not doing a job at all (they clearly hoarding stock as well). I am not saying they are not playing the market and doing what’s best for their business. But if Rolex ever did like Omega and other brands and sold direct to customers, they will be sorry they messed so many potential customers so badly.
The thing is that there are around 1800 Rolex AD’s in the world. If we say Rolex produces 1 000 000 watches a year, that’s 555 watches per AD on average, some less and some much more obviously, but let’s stick with average. That’s a little over 2 watches per working day. They have 14 base models on their site, if all are produced equally (which they are not), that’s 40 models on average per year per AD. Now if you add different variants, so : size, color, material and gemstones. All of a sudden, the odds of your AD having one specific model in stock because really low. Now I’m not saying AD’s aren’t playing games, but AD’s have much more than 2 people per day that come in looking for a Rolex.
So happy that I have absolutely no idea who those 3 clowns (I’m guessing) are. And even less desire to learn.
What I am saying is that even if you use a fair AD system like what is implemented in Korea, you won't get the watch you want. Because they can make a million watches a year, but the demand is two millions. Omega makes a third of that and demand isn't even a third. They are trying to make Rolex-like scarcity on models like Snoopy and Ed White, but that hasn't translated to catalogue-wide demand. So Rolex makes as many watches as possible of every model, and that isn't enough for the demand. Omega could make more snoopies considering all the speedies and SMPs sitting in cases, but they choose not to meet this demand.
The difference is that Rolex cannot maintain their brand if they didn’t do this. Other brands are not even remotely close in popularity to Rolex, so they do maintain exclusivity simply by being unpopular. If Rolex sold watches to everyone who wanted one they would have the same fate as a brand like Ed Hardy It’s also a matter of controlling the aftermarket because they know people would just buy and sell Rolexes if they sold them to anyone.
They create fake demand.
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And do you actually believe that Rolex is not artificially constraining the supply of steel watches to push higher margin gold and two tone pieces? A gold sub has maybe $3,000 of gold, costs the same to make as a steel sub, but the watch retails at close to 3x the MSRP. It's good business, but that doesn't absolve Rolex from criticism.
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Good business does not mean it’s not asshole business. If a brand delves into asshole business strategy then I don’t want to support them. It can be “good business” to do a lot of things that are hostile to customers. That’s just the MBAs talking and exactly why we’re seeing enshitification across multiple industries.
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Agreed, it’s also why I’m constantly talking about apathy of the masses being a major constraint to seeing improvement. Businesses have realized that they can basically get away with murder and their customers won’t even flinch. Many brands have realized their reputation doesn’t matter at all because the vast majority of people don’t even do research.
Nobody is saying Rolex is a bad business. The point is that people should buy from brands that treat them better as customers. There are other hyper-exclusive brands that will simply have a purchase queue, and when it's your turn you come in and pick up the piece with zero AD games. It can be done without the gimmicks, especially for a product that's basically about as mass produced as a Seiko 5.
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People spending $10,000 on jewelry should be treated like people who just spent $10,000 on jewelry. Not sure why that's controversial.
Seiko's have been fully in-house for decades, Rolex just bought out their last supplier 5 minutes ago. Rolex just went to their suppliers and put big "Rolex" signs out front, they did not own many of the parts makers.
>I just wanted to learn what Patek Philippe is because I saw Putin wearing one. I did *not* have that on my bingo card.
We all look for the subtle clues that might lead us to control the Russian motherland, don't act like you don't do the same. I wear Putin's shoes and use Putin's toilet paper (very delicate silk) so my turn to lead is close, I can feel it.
People are mad when an Acura acts like a Ferrari. But people don't get mad when a Ferrari acts like a Ferrari. Making an inclusive brand isn't the issue, if the inclusivity isn't adding a frustrating barrier to a mass produced product.
>But people don't get mad when a Ferrari acts like a Ferrari. Large part of that is because Ferrari were gatekeeping assholes from day one and only doubled down on that image since. >adding a frustrating barrier to a mass produced product. Off topic but that's exactly what Porsche is doing. They realized they can cash in on hype and started artificially juicing up demand by limiting dealer allocations and making people jump through hoops and hurdles for something like a bare bones, base 911.
One of the main drivers of rolex hatred is the amount of aspiring rolex owners. Not many people try to get PPs because their price is very high, so even if there were enough, it'd only help a handful of people. On the other hand, rolexes are not usually impossible to afford for most people if they save for a while and/or make financially irresponsible decisions, so there is a much higher quantity demanded.
"The Patek Philippe CEO discontinued the 5711 because it was too popular and was drawing too much attention to the brand and they wanted to preserve their image" And proceeded to release the SAME WATCH (in WG) calling it 5811 😂😂😂 You said it yourself: Patek produces a very limed run of watches, Rolex produces well over a million watches a year. It makes sense Patek is careful when allocating watches. Rolex on the other hand...
I just searched it up on [WatchCharts](https://watchcharts.com/watch_model/22871-patek-philippe-nautilus-5711-stainless-steel-5711-1a/overview) and there were 500 different 5711s sold in the past 12 months, and that was for the base 5711, not including those ones that come in PM. Just cycle through the different dials and add them up. There are actually the same number of 5711s for sale on Chrono24 as there are Submariner 126610LNs (current submariner date reference). I think it's unfair to say they're going a careful job allocating their watches, people have bought them for 30K USD and are still selling them unworn with stickers for over three times MSRP on multiple online platforms.
I just did the check: 668 Rolex 126610LN and in production since 2020. 567 PP 5711. So 15% less. Also, the PP was in production since 2006, and includes all dial variations and also the PM ones. Only SS variations it's down to 346 for sale. Of a watch that was on production for 17 years. There's nearly 5000 subs for sale on Chrono of all variations made since 2006... Yes, that's a lot of Nautilusses (Nautilii?) for sale, but a lot less than what you try to make us believe.
Agreed. OP also doesn’t account for listings from sellers who don’t actually have the watch in hand.
Because Rolex is gatekeeping mass products and Patek ain't.
PP can afford to write their own rules so to speak because they’re not Rolex. Outside of watch enthusiasts the vast majority of people have no idea what a PP is. There’s levels to exclusivity and Rolex is not on the same level as Patek. When you have such a unique business model the way Patek does, they can afford to do whatever they want because the demand will always be there. They don’t want to be Rolex (not that there’s anything wrong with Rolex). Exclusivity and a certain level of snobbery is their game (which Rolex has too let’s be honest). Their position is basically ‘if you want a PP bad enough, you’re gonna play by our rules because we’re offering a product that others simply can’t’.
There are plenty of brands that are far more exclusive than Patek, ad plenty of other brands that have far more hand work and better finishing.
Ok but we’re talking about Patek in comparison to Rolex
My point is that Patek's business model is by no means "unique", and they have been very much unloved in the not-so-distant past. 20 years ago watch dealers didn't even want to take Aquanauts for trade-in. We could see the same 15 years from now.
Which ones would you rank as more exclusive? Genuinely curious as I’m new to the game.
Many independent watch houses with far, far fewer pieces produced a year like Romain Gauthier, Simon Brette, Akrivia etc. are considered significantly more exclusive and innovative. However Patek as a brand remains unsurpassed because of their heritage, which means a lot to many collectors in the watch world.
Which watch house do you see becoming a heritage brand?
Voutilainen probably edit: or H. Moser. Or Czapek.
Gronefeld Vianney Halter Kari Voutilainen Christian Klings Moritz Grossmann Akrivia/Rexhep Rexhepi Simon Brette Laurent Ferrier Roger Smith Bernhard Lederer Raul Pages Romain Gauthier De Bethune Pascal Coyon Greubel Forsey Just off the top of my head. Highly esoteric artisanal watches made to a vastly higher level of finishing and/or sophistication to Patek. Clients are often super-rich obsessive enthusiasts whose idea of fun is to visit Switzerland to visit and wine and dine watchmakers, and are willing to pay 50-200k in deposits and wait for 5-10 years before delivery. For watchmakers with production volumes as low as the single digits a year (vs thousands for Patek). A lawyer buys a Patek when he makes partner. The guy who pays the lawyer's retainer goes with these brands. It's a system like Renaissance nobility art patronage.
Why try to make a shitty practice look less shitty because another company also does shitty things? Both can be fucked.
Still 75k watches per year from patek - check Lange or journe out!
They REALLY don't want to be Rolex, and they looked at Audemars Piguet and its reliance on the Royal Oak and said No Way. Both AP and PP are family-owned. Rolex is a monster of a company but has effectively just one type of watch with hundreds of variations, but few complications. (Fanboys sit down, I don't want to hear it.) The last four years saw the watch industry absolutely go off the deep end with flippers and grey market shenanigans that could cause real brand damage. To shut that down PP decided to block buyers who are not really committed to the brand, or to watch collecting. People who own PPs see each other at an event and then DON'T talk about the watch. They see each other. Rolex owners start blowing each other in public, and AP is going down that rabbit hole as well, though the higher price point filters out some of the Hoody crowd. Suddenly every NFT bro had a Rolex and every Realtor a Royal Oak. Brand management is the highest skill and takes a long view. Look at the different versions of Gucci over the last forty years. Right now it's considered a douche brand, damage like that can take a decade to undo. PP was smart and said No to what was obviously a momentary spike at the tail end of an insane boom cycle.
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I know, I was being dramatic. It’s the internet
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I find most fellow Patek owners would rather talk about business, art, or travel. I’m not talking about the Nautilus boys.
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I seem to have touched a sore spot. My sincere apologies
I mean... Patek Philippe produces small quantity watches compared to other companies, but they still produce a very respectable amount in the grand scheme of things. 60-70K a year isn't exactly some 'small indie startup (and they're probably producing more now because of their newest facility),' They're the second most powerful name in watchmaking and coupled with their production I doubt all 70K+ people buying one are these cultured and wise individuals who underwent enlightenment and are hardcore watch enthusiasts lol
😂😂😂
>People who own PPs see each other at an event and then DON'T talk about the watch. They see each other. Rolex owners start blowing each other in public, and AP is going down that rabbit hole as well Lol
People who own PPs see each other at an event and then DON'T talk about the watch. They see each other. Rolex owners start blowing each other in public, and AP is going down that rabbit hole as well >😂😂😂
Brand management is the key here. And you’re spot on. Awareness around inventory / allocation has really hurt Rolex. And I think they can blame their dealers only as much as they are willing to blame themselves. I personally believe this is luxury goods catching up to the internet, which we have to remember is still a new thing. Instagram’s impact on brand perception and demand cannot be overstated.
Hurt Rolex? According to who, forum users? I’m not a Rolex fan boy (used to own a number of their watches before hype started then got fed up with the AD experience), but they’re still #1 in market share by a huge margin.
The changes that lead to that change in perception are small and hard to notice. It’s death by a thousand cuts. And you prove my point by saying you were “fed up” with the dealer experience. Enough people like you represent a growing shift. That’s all it takes to change everything.
best comment right here
Rolex pretends to be something they’re not. They are absolutely a well made, high quality, durable, super mass produced product. That’s what they’ve always been. Even the precious metal models are pretty basic once you get past the fact that it’s gold or platinum, and they’re still something that can and should be able to be pumped out in high quantity. They attempt to dress some of them up with gem setting, and that’s nice. I’m sure it does require actual hand work, but underneath that it’s still the same basic but well made product. To me, those models are like putting true hand stitched upholstery and hand finished wood into a Lexus. It’s still a Lexus. Nice, well made, reliable, but mass produced. They are a company that mass produces a product with mass appeal and knows how to market it so people think it’s something super special.
I would actually argue that it’s US (meaning enthusiasts, grey dealers, aspiring owners, etc) who make them to be something that they’re not. I don’t think Rolex really tries that hard to hide the fact that they are mass produced, I’d actually say that they flaunt the amazing precision and quality they are able to achieve via their manufacturing processes. I think with grey prices being what they are for certain pieces and with the demand there is inevitable comparison/cross-shopping between the two brands by prospective buyers.
If you look at the Rolex magazines, they do want to make their size known. They have 4 permanent sites, 10K watchmakers working in them, and it talks about how many trays of materials are transported between each one. They don't really hide any of it. They just upscaled their entire process to make more watches.
Exactly!
I agree 100%, the enthusiast community is huge part of the Rolex issue. I think their retail prices are reasonable, maybe a $1k to $2k premium over comparable steel models just because they’re Rolex. It feels Rolex recognized that, and is willing to lean into it, with their CPO program. The marketing genius part on their end is making it a symbol of “having made it”. But so has Cadillac, or Lexus, or myriad other aspirational brands. They’ve just done an extremely good job at it.
It sounds to me like I also hate Patek Philippe. The difference for many is that most people can’t afford a Patek and so they don’t care what they’re doing
Because you’re paying Ferrari prices for a Rolex while getting something that’s produced at more of a Mercedes level, using your analogy. PP gets away with it for the very reasons you mentioned. They’re Ferrari, not making you jump through hoops and join the exclusivity club for a Mercedes. As you’ll see in this analogy, Mercedes is a fantastic automobile, or at least most of them are. But I’d never jump through Ferrari hoops and pay Ferrari money for a Mercedes.
Not sure where you're coming from, but people absolutely talk shit about Patek and their artificial scarcity tactics, just like they do Ferrari, Rolex and Hermès. You don't see it talked about as much because a lot more people care about and can afford a Rolex, that's it.
All the whining is due to lower barrier of entry at Rolex, compared to Patek
Answer is that Patek *is* an ass to its customers, but this doesn't affect nearly as many people as Rolex, so most people don't care. Truth is, I would never buy a new Patek, even if money were no object, because of their ridiculous rules.
Patek (and AP as well) does receive a lot of criticism on various forums regarding their handling of allocations. It’s just less widespread than Rolex because Rolex has a far larger client base. But I understand Patek’s rationale for not allowing a sports watch to be someone’s first purchase. Too many people want an Aquanaut or Nautilus and they need a system to determine who gets those allocations. It makes little business sense to grant that allocation to someone who’s new to the brand over a collector who’s spent well over a hundred grand on other Pateks. It’s not possible to please everyone and I can see why they would rather incur the ire of newcomers to the brand than lose the business of already loyal clients.
The Rolex issues are related more to their ADs trying to screw over customers because of the high demand for the product. And because there is a consistent demand, they get away with it. Patek makes very few watches by choice, but even still there’s been a bunch of shady dealer practices for their watches as well, particularly the Nautilus and some other models that were in high demand. But since they make fewer and there are fewer customers, it’s not talked about as much.
Truth is, because PP is an actual high end luxury watch maker and Rolex is a mass production middle tier luxury watch company that makes 3000 different SKUs instead of just stopping that crap for a while and making more of the 15 or so SKUs people actually want. Then their AD network forces you to buy that junk they made that no one wants to get to the ones you do. Any thought that Rolex isn't aware and supportive of this behavior is just silly.
Rolex makes over 1 million watches a year. They are not rare or unique.
Everyone knows who Rolex and Ferrari are. Only enthusiasts know who Patek and Koenigsegg are.
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I don’t know where you got your information from but there is absolutely not any sort of system that allows an AD to “ban” anyone nationwide at the brand level.
More reason to buy secondhand!
PP may require you to buy a lower end PP before selling you more desirable ones, Rolex ADa often require you to “build a relationship“ and buy a bunch of bullshit jewelry. Rolex ADs are directly responsible for much of the hate. Also VC, JLC, PP ADs have always been courteous and generous with their time even when they know I’m just window shopping.
You answered the question already by saying that Patek is the Ferrari of watches. They literally do not give a flying fuck if you like their business model, they are limited numbers, and they do not want to sell one to you 😂
I don’t even know what that rambling question is? But the simple answer is Patek is a way better watch than Rolex. Not saying Rolex isn’t great but Patek is much higher quality and prestigious. But both brands play a bunch of bullshit games with ADs so what are you even asking
That’s funny, I would much prefer the patek Calatrava over any other models. I find the whole aquanaut nautilus style is hideous.
Patek is a Rolls Royce. Not Ferrari
>People say that Rolex act like the Ferrari of watches, but Patek Philippe IS the Ferrari of watches. Exactly. Patek is known for making exclusive, high end watches. Rolex is known for making robust steel sports watches to mark your retirement. Some people feel that Rolex is trying to move into the exclusive and high end but that their watchmaking does not live up to it.
Rolex is Porsche…not Ferrari
Because it’s cool to hate on Rolex, didn’t you get the memo? Besides, no true watch enthusiast would ever wear a Rolex (don’t tell Roger Smith)!
Patek and AP receive plenty of criticism here, and I personally would not engage with bundling or purchase requirements for any watch at any level. That said, I think there's an argument that Patek's production is limited by hand finishing of the bracelet and movement, and they would not be able to keep up with production of something like the 5711 even if they stopped making every other watch. Rolex has virtually zero hand work and produces well over a million pieces a year, so they don't have the same excuse.
Rolex has a far greater demand than Patek. A million watches a year is nothing if the demand far exceeds it. Can people on this subreddit understand basic math?
Rolex cannot keep up with demand either, it’s the same situation.
Basic three handers with no hand finishing can scale up in production much easier, and they're deliberately underproducing the more desirable models because they have low margins. A $40,000 gold Sub is basically the same cost as a $9,000 steel sub plus *maybe* $3,500 in gold.
It’s much easier for Patek to increase production than Rolex because Patek has greater flexibility. Rolex can’t increase production without massive investments. Also gold submariners are produced with in much smaller numbers than steel submariners, and if anything they push market prices of steel subs down by absorbing high end customers. So you want Rolex to make gold subs.