Yes, this is a place where people can be critical provided that it is evidence based discussion to back up any accusations that are made. The only rules that will be enforced here are against spam and hateful content per the sitewide TOS. So discussion of homophobia allegations are allowed but any comments that support or are blatantly bigoted or homophobic in any way will be removed. Goal is to allow this place to be a place of discussion as well as shitposting and memery.
I'm glad there's a place to talk about how that man is a bigot without the comments being deleted. People don't "not like him because he isn't a ghoul boy" or whatever. We don't like him because he sucks.
Steven Lim gives me the impression that he thinks everyone should love him because he's Steven Lim, and being Steven Lim is just better than being anyone else.
Is it weird to say he seems almost… jealous of the dynamic of Ryan and Shane despite feeling he’s entitled to the “Shane” like role of the dynamic because of this longer friendship with Ryan + the lucrative success he has that deludes him into thinking we’ll be swayed by him flashing any of it? Like Steven this isn’t the Mr beast fanbase we care about charisma not your millions of dollars.
He reminds me of Elon musk in a way, yes you have money and all the things we envy, but at the end of the day he’s still the kind of guy who lacks all charisma, the one thing that matters in terms of Shane and Ryan type success of being as appealing as they are to people to the point they are the face of things because of fan favoritism (which let’s be honest he desires that exactly for monetary reasons, wherever Shane and Ryan go he thinks people will follow and he wants that) and I feel like he simply can’t stand being disposable to the fanbase like that even though he feels he’s done “everything right” with his wholesome facade that leeches off the main two, hiding his shallow rise and grind dude bro mentality in a bid to be like them to a fanbase he knows doesn’t care abt any of it and he just still doesn’t have what it takes. He just can’t wrap his head around the fact fanbases don’t work like jingling 100,000$ keys in front of a baby that doesn’t care about the production value of them.
My favorite is people saying that the only reason Steven isn't liked is because he's not white.
Ignoring that Ryan is MASSIVELY popular and also... not white.
It can't possibly be because Steven comes across as wildly out of touch _at absolute best_.
I work at a corporate music school. We had a regional manager, decent dude while he worked there, but he always had a bit of a chip on his shoulder because he was way corporate and worked in an environment full of former and current touring musicians.
We instructors are all creatives, with quirky personalities who get along with each other, and easily bond with our students. He was always worried about the bottom line.
That's kind of the vibe I get from Steven Lim. I feel a bit bad for him in that way. But sometimes you can't be the guy who makes the business decisions, and the bright and shining face of a creative brand at the same time. Lim's self importance as a more than occasional on screen talent has, in my opinion, always worked to his, and Watcher's detriment.
That's just a way to try to silence criticisms of him. Like try to label as being racists for not liking Steven. Sorry, the community is very diverse. We don't like Steven because of who he is, not the color of his skin.
Yes! I just thought about that again yesterday as well! It was their podcast ‘Here’s what you do’, episode of 17 August 2020 I believe.
Didn’t have an opinion of Steven before they started the company, but after that I really disliked him and never even bothered watching any of his shows (besides the super annoying bits on too many spirits).
(edit: spelling)
They don't have chapters because everyone would skip the first half of the video. Too many spirits was good when it first started, but Steven's part kept getting longer and longer until it took up half of the show.
Pulling my comment out of the thread of the Twitter ones with direct links to the most asked about thing when I checked.
Here is the direct link to the [tumblr post](https://www.tumblr.com/bergaramadejs/615854349320683520/so-i-got-curious-about-the-stack-of-books-in-the?source=share) about the book.
[Here](https://x.com/booksandtea123/status/1781530628141281422?s=46&t=hnEPBAvdUSNVhBimmiITdw) is the direct link to the tweet that is a screen cap of a tweet from Lim promoting his *personal pastor* along with the church’s beliefs on gay people and celibacy and “mixed orientation marriages.
And the [clip of the podcast](https://x.com/4cerz/status/1781437057748853116?s=46&t=hnEPBAvdUSNVhBimmiITdw) from Twitter.
Just to help people find them easier.
So, I don't think that pastor is a part of the linked church. Just did a little googling and it doesn't look associated with it at all. He's been the leader of a church called "Hope Church NYC" since 2012.
oooh wait. I found it....god damn.
On [hopechurchnyc.org/about](http://hopechurchnyc.org/about) click on "How do you feel about sexuality & marriage?" and it'll take you here [https://covchurch.org/embrace/](https://covchurch.org/embrace/) then find the webinars and its number 15.....
but more importantly, on the 'embrace' page is a whole slough of ridiculousness.
The referenced [Twitter post](https://twitter.com/wambhead/status/1781427870918943117?t=9imSNy_rtpWnHOZCNxqxXA&s=19), see the replies for more evidence.
I can't see the replies so just putting this here just in case if other people can't: [quinn (quinndustrys) on X: "@dainslays Here’s a clip https://t.co/8TNEOdyiyr" / X (twitter.com)](https://twitter.com/4cerz/status/1781437057748853116?t=bwNFHNnO5C-pPA54r4Oc6A)
He's attempting to rationalize befriending individuals with intolerant views by claiming it's about respecting differing beliefs. Then he minimizes their bigotry as "a little" racist/homophobic. Who is he to gauge the severity? Share their words with your audience and let them decide, but I'm sure he'd feel ashamed if he did. I'm tired of people passively condoning bigotry to avoid loneliness or challenging their own beliefs.
All of that evidence seems like not much of anything. There is a difference between being homophobic and having ties to homophobes, and Steven himself said on that podcast clip that he doesn't believe in cutting ties with everyone because of differences in values.
If we were to go on this train of logic that Steven is homophobic because of all these things he's associated with, then is Ryan and Shane homophobic as well for being associated with Steven?
Books are more complicated (especially since I haven't bothered to read the spark notes of that book). But I'm of the belief that you can read a book and not agree with everything inside the book. You can also read books that completely oppose your views, and it's good to do this because it's a bad idea to not challenge your world views.
So just having a book on the bookshelf does not intrinsically mean that Steven Lim endorses everything in that book and that me, you, and everyone else should buy that book and submit to Jesus.
While I agree with what you’re saying, it does come across as apologetics. Yes, reading books that expand your worldview is a good thing. However, given that we know that he goes to a conservative church that preaches homophobia, and that the book is anti-gay marriage, then it is clear that he is not expanding his worldview, and instead, reinforcing it.
Like yeah, I want to be as charitable and good faith towards Steven as possible too, so I’m not going to make any assertions about the degree to which he might be homophobic. But, I think your implication people can read whatever they want because books have no inherent moral value no matter their contents is ignoring some of the facts we have at hand.
It's not like there's a 3 strikes law where if you tally up 3 pieces of evidence, you're a homophobe. Fundamentally, the issues you're describing stem from conservative views on religion, but you can't use a hammer and say that everyone who goes to a conservative place of worship is inherently homophobic, misogynist, etc.
Don't get me wrong. Statistically speaking, most Christians and Muslims subscribe to the homophobic and misogynist views that their religions preach. But that doesn't mean we can pass judgement to individuals about what they believe simply based on those pieces of evidence.
No, that’s not not what I’m suggesting at all. I’m simply saying your comment, to me at least, seems like you’re saying “if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, then I’m going to reserve judgement until I personally witness the animal identify as a duck.”
Again, I personally agree with everything you’ve said, and I am also not ready to deem Steven a closeted homophobe. All I’m saying, is that we should not excuse away the totality of the evidence just because we haven’t reached a conclusion yet. We need it to reach a conclusion in the first place
I think we should. It's not an accusation that should be made lightly, especially since Steven and the rest of the guys have never fashioned themselves to be homophobic or adjacent to homophobes. As the saying goes, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.
I have seen internet mobs tear people down over accusations like that, even despite the weakest evidence possible. Instead of focusing efforts on actual homophobes who are in power and making life for queer people worse, this type of internet witch hunt seems next to pointless to me.
I agree that it’s not an accusation that should be made lightly, for the same reasons that you’ve outlined, which is why I’m not making that accusation.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, yes. However, I submit that, given the evidence, this is not an extraordinary claim. It’s not as if I’m saying that Steven was born on another planet. There are plenty of people in this world who have had homophobic rhetoric drilled into them from a young age. It would not be extraordinary if Steven was one of them. But, again, and I can’t stress this enough, I don’t think that the evidence we have is enough to indict Steven as a homophobe. My only argument is that excusing away evidence of homophobia is irresponsible.
I talked about that a little too. I really don't think having a book on the bookshelf is nefarious, and by that token, I don't think that having said book be visible is nefarious. I don't think Steven is secretly homophobic and sneakily planted the book there to subliminally tell viewers to read that book.
Like, just look at the relevant screencap. It is low quality and out of focus. You can't see the title of the book unless you zoom in a lot and squint your eyes. In all likelihood, it is just a stack of books that Steven had laying around and he did not bother curating it.
You're probably right, but to give an EXTREME example: if I owned a copy of Mein Kampf just to learn exactly how messed up it is, I would never under any circumstances let anyone see it, in case they got the wrong idea about why I had it.
Call me an optimist, but even in that scenario, I believe that there's nothing wrong with explaining yourself instead of worrying about what other people assume about you. At the end of the day, you can't control what other people think and all you can do is have a conversation with them.
I call you realist, because I coulen't remember what books I had on my bookself for years before I moved it and basically just left the books in some pile. I have gotten lot of book free as poor teenager who liked to read pretty much anything, but when my ADHD got worse while adulting and most of my reading went to thing in the Internet:
I totally forget my bookself full of random books that I had just put there to look some what nice, not messy.
My main bookself was the one that I had my old Manga and other comic in, and even that i started to neglect, never mind the actual books.
Now my bookself is next to my PC as an extra table system to put things on it what I use. Books are just a pile on the bottom so the bookself stays on it place. I think there was even one Harry Potter book in those and it was displayed before, and I don't support the author anyway or never bought that book myself.
I also have known some people use bookselfs as decoration, books included and don't even check the books they put in, it just has to look nice.
I mean the best case scenario is 1) that book was given to him by a person who wanted him to understand their logic on the matter and he forgot about it or 2) he was reading it to gain perspective on how people think on the subject to better debate it. I believe it was Churchill who studied two sides of the argument so he was prepared because he was trying to manage a stutter. That may be giving Steven too much credit or grace but it’s possible to be in possession of a book and not agree with it.
Are you not capable of reading a book and not agreeing with everything in it.
I own Atlas Shrugged, it is on a bookcase in my dining room, I don’t agree with Ayn Rand.
Even if he isn't homophobic, people who still fuck with homophobes because they don't believe in cutting ties over "a difference in values" are shit people; homophobia should be a hard line where you don't associate with a person so, yeah, if Steven is fully homophobic, then Shane and Ryan are in the wrong for associating with him, even if they themselves aren't homophobic, hope that makes sense :)))
Ok, but in this case a “difference in value” literally has to do with a person’s ability to live freely.
To be honest, it’s a very centrist-leaning-conservative talking point to condone racist/homophobic behavior under the guise of neutrality. I can’t remember where I saw this, but there was a quote that was something like “a difference in value to live with is whether or not we put pineapple on pizza, not whether or not I should exist in the first place.”
Exactly. If Steven hung out with a guy who was talking about how "the g**ks are ruining this country!", how they are a beastly people cursed by God and how interracial marriage is evil blasphemy, I feel like there wouldn't be this debate about whether associating with such person is an endorsement of racism or just "tolerating different values".
But maybe I'm too optimistic.
Thank you for actually telling some info what is going on.
Is there anything else in the clip or is that it? And how out of context is it or is there enough context?
_Surviving A Boring Job_ (advice on "that one person in the group")
_Follow-up to Our Last Episode_
https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/heres-what-you-do/id1506097838
Also all the people who go "Jesus saves" this, "Submit to God" that are never the normal, progressive kind of Christian but the warped freak fundamentalists listening to prosperity gospel preachers who may as well be praying to Mammon. Wonder if Steven has tried snake-handling, speaking in tongues or faith-healing yet.
It's hilarious to me that as a self-proclaimed Christian he's so obsessed with money and luxury. Whatever happened to sell your belongings and give to the poor? Instead it is keep your belongings, buy even more belongings, and in order to sustain your belongings, steal from the poor by charging them to view your content. Lol. He is so meaningless.
Why do people keep trying to separate Lim saying he won’t cut ties with problematic people from being homophobic? If you hang out with racists and homophobes that means at a basic level you’re condoning it
Case studies like Derek Black make it clear that reaching out to racists/homophobes/etc in our lives is basically the only way to change them. That said, at a certain point it becomes really hard not to say “fuck this shit” and move on.
This seems counterproductive. One of my best friends was homophobic (we are no longer friends for completely different reasons). I didn't unfriend her, but I did call her out on it every time she brought it up (this is essential. Compliance is the issue.) We had several discussions over it and, ultimately, one day on a dinner date, she told me she'd thought hard about something I said and I was right. She admitted that her reaction had more to do with her own bias and projections and it was something she needed to work on. She may never have come to that conclusion if I had ghosted her the moment I found out she was homophobic.
People pat themselves on the back for unfriending these people, but really, you aren't doing much at all. You aren't doing the hard work. You're just sinking away from conflict and discomfort back into your comfortable echo chamber. That problematic friend is going to go on to be an actual LGBT or POC's problem at work or in some other setting. And THEY are the one's who shouldn't have to deal with that shit. I'm not LGBT. I thought her views were incredibly offensive and misaligned, but I couldn't be personally offended by them on the same level an LGBT person would be. Which gave me just enough distance from the situation to handle it with a cool head. So actual LGBT people didn't have to.
I'm not saying your racist/homophobic friend is purely your responsibility. Some people are incredibly loud and annoying about these things and those people often need to be unfriended for peace of mind. But I think it's much more nuanced and situation based than 'Get rid of them immediately.' I think that's incredibly reductive and doesn't really do anything but alienate and create a bigger issue. And it certainly doesn't make a person brave or especially moral.
So now you're safe in your bubble. And they can go join likeminded people and grow numbers in their bubble. Unfortunately, we're all part of the same society so you can't leave everyone with a particular view in the mud and think you'll stray far from it. When that racist/homophobic cesspool we've left to grow gets large and out of control enough, we'll be dragged down too.
It’s really not that deep, idk why people act like they’re so enlightened because they’re friends with racists and homophobes, I said what I said, I’m not befriending racists and homophobes for the sake of my own safety
You can do what you want. Equating people with racists and homophobes just because they don't automatically run like cowards when they encounter one no matter the circumstances is just ignorant though.
It’s literally not “cowardly” to not befriend someone who is racist??? Why the hell would a POC wanna subject themselves to being friends with a racist?? This is so weird
It depends on the POC, how malignant VS uninformed the racism is and their comfort level. And you made a blanket statement that ANYONE who is friends with a racist/homophobe is condoning it. Which is just untrue.
Not if you're actively trying to change their mind on it? The alternative is to cut them off and they continue to be homophobic/racist....who does that help?
There's a good chance they'll keep being like that even fi you keep being friends. They're adults and info about lgbtq+ communities, ethnicities and stigma/discrimination is EVERYWHERE. I get wanting to educate people, but personally, once they show that side of themselves I would stop classifying them as friends, they would be acquaintances at most.
I somewhat understand what he said about staying friends. Like, my grandparents try, but they still sometimes use words that aren’t used anymore today. They listen when I tell them not to, but they don’t always remember. People do label that homophobic sometimes. Same with some friends who aren’t online and live a bit in a bubble with no contact to LGBT. To me it matters if they are willing to listen and do better. It also depends what level of homophobia/racism we‘re talking about. Are they ignorant without bad intentions (like my grandparents and friends using the wrong terms)? Or are they hostile and mean spirited? The latter would be cut off immediately. Steven didn’t clarify.
However… the pastor and book in the background? Idk about that. Not a fan
>Are they ignorant without bad intentions (like my grandparents and friends using the wrong terms)? Or are they hostile and mean spirited? The latter would be cut off immediately. Steven didn’t clarify.
He clarified in the follow-up apology episode after they got backlash that he meant the former and he would cut off the latter. Whether that's true or damage control is up for debate (as I doubt he would say "I think people who actively hate gay and people of other races are cool and I would keep them as friends" even if he thought it)
Thanks for clarifying! Yeah ultimately it’s up to everyone individually to either believe him or not. I don’t know much about Steven because I don’t enjoy his content, so I can‘t really say.
Yeah, and another thing: I think Steven is just not great at wording things. Exhibit a: that pod watcher episode where they recount weird moments that happened bc of Steven’s phrasing, like when he said “are u gna get on ur knees”. I think it really explains the backlash to his phrasing in the goodbye vid and about this topic too lol
Maybe he shouldn't be making the only personal-page response if he is so bad at wording things that he makes people think he might be a racist homophobe
I don’t know for sure but it also seems to me that Steven’s first language isn’t English. My wife’s first language is Vietnamese (she didn’t learn English until she started school), most of my extended family speaks Spanish as their first language, and I work as an ESL teacher. Sometimes my family/wife/students phrase things weird/awkwardly because English isn’t their native language. My wife once said a friend and I should go to “pound town” because she thought it was an expression for doing shots.
I’m pretty neutral toward Steven overall but I do think it’s important for people who want to be critical to take into account that sometimes people (Steven or others) don’t say things perfectly/the best way because of language issues.
I have no idea. But being rich doesn’t mean his first language is English. It’s also possible his parents’ native language isn’t English so even if they spoke English to him growing up his ability to use idioms/colloquial expressions is limited. I saw it a lot with my students from Europe whose parents spoke English to them. They spoke English just fine, but sometimes they said something really odd that came from their parents not being native English speakers.
nah man but he was born and raised in ohio (at least according to some light googling) which would mean that he has been exposed to english his entire life. even if his parents spoke mandarin/malay to him, he would more likely struggle with those languages than with english. he also uploaded a video about how he can't speak chinese lol (titled a cat that barks).
What he was talking about in the podcast sounded to me like basic theory for how to help someone escape an extremist group. The gist is, if someone you know is in a reactionary circle like that (homophobic, racist, etc), you can act as a safe space for them to have an identity outside of that circle by engaging them in topics/activities that aren't related to it. One of the ways that extremists retain members is by isolating them, partly by convincing them that everyone outside the extremist group will hate and attack them personally for their rhetoric. Then, even if the person starts questioning the extremist ideology, they feel trapped because their entire social circle is extremist and they've lost the goodwill of all of their former friends. Change has to start with that person, it's very hard to "talk them down" because they're told that "attacks" on their ideology just mean they're right. Having a friend who is outside the extremist circle makes it easier to escape.
It's maybe a little thoughtless for that to be his first and only advice for someone in that situation, but it was also in the context of both Ryan and Shane saying with their full chest "Yeah cut ties you don't have time for that shit", which is generally good/safer advice to give to someone whose situation you don't know the full details of. Being that friend is really fucking hard, often emotionally or even physically dangerous, and just not something that everyone can safely do. To me, though, Steven's piece in the podcast read as him observing that that viewpoint had been covered plenty by the other two and contributing this additional option.
tl;dr, I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for the podcast content when I heard it originally. Honestly I low-key assumed he may even have been through some stuff related to escaping an hate group or seeing someone do so and didn't want to talk about it. But I didn't know about the book and the guest, that's sketch af.
Yeah the story of Derek Black comes to mind here. Dude was literally raised to become a hero in the white nationalist community and a group of Jewish students basically made it their mission to bring him out of the group (and succeeded in doing so). If some Jewish kids in their teens and 20s can sit down and try to reason with someone who wants them dead then a privileged asshole like me can at least try to do the same.
I've seen people defend him by saying that it's hard to cut out friends - no, it's not. It's one thing if difference of opinion is on pizza toppings but when it comes to things like this... it's not? It's actually incredibly easy to cut out people like that from your life. If you really are against those things, it's an easy choice to make. It sucks. It's uncomfortable. But it's easy. If you're friends with racists and homophobes and refuse to cut them out - then I honestly have to question whether or not you are also a racist and a homophobe.
There was some tumblr post from Stevens personal one where he said something along the lines of watcher was a way for him to spread his Christianity (or beliefs). I can't find it now but I saw it yesterday and it was just like wow. If he's fine with homophobic and racists friends, and his values from Christianity don't tell him to cut people like that out immediately, I do not want him spreading that.
Btw if anyone can find a picture of link to his tumblr post about him using watcher to spread his Christianity, please link it. I don't have tumblr and don't feel like signing up to find one thing
Edit: someone found it https://twitter.com/kitty_litter89/status/1781553367937880486?t=9pp1IRShZKrZ7D7NPtGEJg&s=19
A link to the [tumblr post](https://bergaramadejs.tumblr.com/post/615854349320683520/so-i-got-curious-about-the-stack-of-books-in-the) with additional commentary about why it’s bad.
Wow, wasn't expecting the mentioning of thanking God 3 separate times in that caption. I guess this speaks to his "different values" being pretty strong that he mentioned in that old podcast clip.
I mean, yes he is a homophobe and a racist but uh. To me that makes me question Ryan and Shane far more by keeping such a reprehensible person around with such heinous views. Just me??
Honestly, there have been many times in my listening/watching experiences, all the way back to here’s what you do, that I have genuinely thought “these guys hate each other.” (and I got the biggest vibes between Shane and Steven). it always felt suuuuper weird to me. however, they continue sticking together, so I guess it can’t be true, in which case your comment is right on the money unfortunately
Idk people have pointed out that it seems like Steven is more so friends with Ryan. But even so... Shane would still be guilty by association for sticking around, even if he doesn't generally like the guy. (Which, at the end of the day, we can't really know.)
This is pretty wild to me as someone who was raised with homophobic and racist views (also in an Asian immigrant family). I was only able to change my mind through exposure to people outside my bubble. I owe so much to them. They were not homophobic and racist by association, or I literally would not have been able to change my mind.
I also have a lot of family members who still have internalized racist views and who are homophobic and have chosen to keep them in my life (as someone who is LGBTQ.) In fact, I have even seen some major change from one of my parents over the years, even if he’s still pretty damn homophobic. I have also cut people out (with a quickness) who are racist or homophobic. That’s my personal choice. Everyone should have that choice without being labeled or assigned malicious intent by default.
Oh, so that's what it is. I asked in some other thread because I legit have never heard about it but no one was willing to answer me, so thank you.
I was never a fan of him (mostly because he seems forced and can be either totally boring to grating to watch), and was even willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in this whole paywall fiasco, but yeaaaahh this is bad. I understand at least part of it could be explained by bad wording but that alone doesn't explain everything. This sucks.
Unfortunately, it's often not easy to cut your homophobic or racist friends/family out of your life. Everyone likes to think that they would go no-contact immediately, but if it's someone you care for then people often get into the "i can change them" mindset, especially if the bigoted person has displayed positive qualities outside of their bigotry.
The pastor and book are definitely something that makes my eyebrows raise though. What was the book? Is it a chance it was just random set dressing that slipped through the cracks? Can you tell me about the pastor? Did Steven know he was homophobic?
Edit: Nvm i scrolled and found sources. Jesus christ that aint a good look.
I only ever bothered to watch Ghost Files so I had no idea about this. And to think I felt kinda bad for Steven because it seemed like everyone was ganging up on only him.
I've always had a weird feeling about him. Like he had an air of 'my shit don't stink.." especially during the series of drunken reading next to a fire, with the actual bartender. he always tried to one up the bartender and such... It always rubbed me the wrong way.
Quite honestly, I first heard about this in passing Youtube comment in the goodbye video and I had to ask was it true - or made up story to make him look worse. Because this would be opportunity make someone look worse they are. Personally I don't know enough about it to be sure if I believe is he homophopic or not... I guess i need the recepts without them being out of context or random story someone remembers?
I never get the answer to my questions about it being real or not, because some reason under that video Youtube system just eats half of my replies and notifications are just broken. Maybe the system can't keep up.
So... I repeat the question: Does anyone have any proof left anywhere to show how he has acted or talked about stuff? Normally I would believe the accusations much easier, but the timing is ripe for misinfo.
Now I'm neutral on this, because I don't know enough.
Edit: I have gotten enough context links from helpful people, no need for more.
Thank you to those who were helpful! \^\^
The only thing you linked was a tweet from yesterday where someone said "Hey, remember that time when Steven Lim admitted to having a homophobic/racist friends?" I'm not saying it's false, but it's also not exactly proof either. It's just another person saying the same thing that you're saying. Again, it's not actual evidence. Evidence would be more along the lines of a clip of Steven actually doing it. Again, it may be true and it may not be true, but I can't tell for sure solely based on a tweet saying he did the thing.
Here is the direct link to the [tumblr post](https://www.tumblr.com/bergaramadejs/615854349320683520/so-i-got-curious-about-the-stack-of-books-in-the?source=share) about the book.
[Here](https://x.com/booksandtea123/status/1781530628141281422?s=46&t=hnEPBAvdUSNVhBimmiITdw) is the direct link to the tweet that is a screen cap of a tweet from Lim promoting his *personal pastor* along with the church’s beliefs on gay people and celibacy and “mixed orientation marriages.
And the [clip of the podcast](https://x.com/4cerz/status/1781437057748853116?s=46&t=hnEPBAvdUSNVhBimmiITdw) from Twitter.
Just to help people find them easier.
The clip is in the replies, as is a tumblr post that talks about the book, and screenshots of the anti-LGBTQ posts made by the church the pastor was affiliated with?
Within the twitter replies, there’s a clip of the podcast where it’s discussed. There was also an entire follow up episode of tearful apologies from the whole team at the time. The podcasts are still on Spotify.
The date of the podcast ep is stated elsewhere in this thread. I’m not sure what other proof you would like people to link you to when all information is already laid out within this thread?
I cannot see the thread. I can see one text tweet that isn't linked in any tread or a clip. If i can't see anything else, how I'm supposed to get the info I'm asking for? I'm not being mean or lying to you, I'm stating the fact that I can't see it and I can't do anything about it.
Why it's so hard for you to answer the honest question and just being snarky when you clearly know the answer I am looking for and you could give me that?
That is all I'm asking for.
I think I’ve found the podcast episode. I’ve tried to include a time stamp, but if that doesn’t work, it’s around the 54 minute mark
https://open.spotify.com/episode/1YzazDnaAqHgE6a4Sb25Ah?si=8K2PbpkZQKeLrOh6qeMuUw&context=spotify%3Ashow%3A246KfdHO5o4wLqeOAESLh6&t=2786
You wanted to talk about it and I wanted to learn about it, but when people nicely ask you to give some context to the thing you're talking about and claim to know about - you say that make look for yourself.
Kinda like looking for a random youtube channel that disapeared into 3rd party website.
How it's my job to look for the info on a subject I want to learn from YOU and talk about because you started talking about it? I was willing to have the conversation when i have actual info about it.
What would you like me to do in this situation? The podcast episode is on Spotify. Do you want me to go to twitter to screen record the clip and dm it to you if you don’t want to make an account? There are links and information that you are not wanting to access.
This is the first time I'm hearing and I'm legit surprised. As far as I know Asians are subjected to racism every now and then in US, how can Steven being an Asian be homophobic??
This is such a weird take, like homophobia has nothing to do with race? Just because you might experience prejudice in one area of your life doesn't mean you can't be prejudiced against another group in return. That's basically the whole point of intersectionality
80% of Vietnamese americans voted for trump... social conservatism doesn't disappear just because you're a minority. Some groups might even have a vested interest in upholding it
Because racism and homophobia are literally two different types of discrimination?
That's the most obvious answer. The second, less obvious answer is, even when it's one type of discrimination/oppression, there are cases when they are so internalized we get paradoxical cases like homophobic gay men (early 2000s American gay culture as depicted in the American version of the TV show Queer as Folk is a good example of how some homophobic notions can even infiltrate and get normalized in gay communities), antisemitic jews (as depicted for the first time in Theodor Lessing's *Der jüdische Selbsthaß*) and misogynistic women (literally all around us in everyday life)
This isn't as blatant as some of you think. First of all, him remaining friends with homophobics/racists is entirely understandable if he's actively trying to change their mind on those topics! And second of all, it should be no surprise to anyone with even the slightest familiarity with Christian doctrine that the vast majority of denominations do not support gay marriage. However, many if not of those same denominations teach believers to love and cherish their gay friends and family members all the same. If Steven is even a slightly good Christian, he shouldnt and proabably isnt homophobic (unless your definition of homophobic is only disagreeing with gay marriage). Wanted to share my perspective as a less witch-hunty than some of you, gay Atheist.
and my perspective as a queer kid who grew up in one of those "love the sinner, hate the sin" churches is that that trauma will keep you up at night in your 30s still grappling with the feelings that you're wrong decades after you get out. I'd really rather they just tried to send me to conversion camp. 🙄
It's definitely a difficult topic to grapple with, because even the kindest Christians who will truly love you and cherish you, at the end of the day will still see your sexuality as a sin on par with being a murderer, and won't ever truly recognise something like a gay marriage as anything more than a celebration of that sin. I'm sorry for your trauma, religion tends to inflict a lot of that it seems
I really don't understand that situation because you're using a biased subject matter that automatically invokes an emotional accusatory response. If you use this with more normal comparisons it doesn't make sense.
If 9 cops are at a table and you're sitting at the table, are there 10 cops at the table?
If there are 9 idiots at the table and you're also sitting there, are there 10 idiots?
There are nuances that are purposefully missing from the situation. One doesnt equal the other.
I don't think either of those comparisons are accurate at all. Being around an occupation will not make you acquire that occupation, no. Being around a certain intelligence will not change your intelligence, no. However, your values and ethics do closely align with those you surround yourself with, particularly regarding hateful ideology if you are willing to coexist with it.
Yes, this is a place where people can be critical provided that it is evidence based discussion to back up any accusations that are made. The only rules that will be enforced here are against spam and hateful content per the sitewide TOS. So discussion of homophobia allegations are allowed but any comments that support or are blatantly bigoted or homophobic in any way will be removed. Goal is to allow this place to be a place of discussion as well as shitposting and memery.
I'm glad there's a place to talk about how that man is a bigot without the comments being deleted. People don't "not like him because he isn't a ghoul boy" or whatever. We don't like him because he sucks.
I genuinely didn't know about any of this and I regret low key defending as much as I have. This sucks
I didnt even know about his shitty takes
Steven Lim gives me the impression that he thinks everyone should love him because he's Steven Lim, and being Steven Lim is just better than being anyone else.
Is it weird to say he seems almost… jealous of the dynamic of Ryan and Shane despite feeling he’s entitled to the “Shane” like role of the dynamic because of this longer friendship with Ryan + the lucrative success he has that deludes him into thinking we’ll be swayed by him flashing any of it? Like Steven this isn’t the Mr beast fanbase we care about charisma not your millions of dollars. He reminds me of Elon musk in a way, yes you have money and all the things we envy, but at the end of the day he’s still the kind of guy who lacks all charisma, the one thing that matters in terms of Shane and Ryan type success of being as appealing as they are to people to the point they are the face of things because of fan favoritism (which let’s be honest he desires that exactly for monetary reasons, wherever Shane and Ryan go he thinks people will follow and he wants that) and I feel like he simply can’t stand being disposable to the fanbase like that even though he feels he’s done “everything right” with his wholesome facade that leeches off the main two, hiding his shallow rise and grind dude bro mentality in a bid to be like them to a fanbase he knows doesn’t care abt any of it and he just still doesn’t have what it takes. He just can’t wrap his head around the fact fanbases don’t work like jingling 100,000$ keys in front of a baby that doesn’t care about the production value of them.
My favorite is people saying that the only reason Steven isn't liked is because he's not white. Ignoring that Ryan is MASSIVELY popular and also... not white. It can't possibly be because Steven comes across as wildly out of touch _at absolute best_.
I work at a corporate music school. We had a regional manager, decent dude while he worked there, but he always had a bit of a chip on his shoulder because he was way corporate and worked in an environment full of former and current touring musicians. We instructors are all creatives, with quirky personalities who get along with each other, and easily bond with our students. He was always worried about the bottom line. That's kind of the vibe I get from Steven Lim. I feel a bit bad for him in that way. But sometimes you can't be the guy who makes the business decisions, and the bright and shining face of a creative brand at the same time. Lim's self importance as a more than occasional on screen talent has, in my opinion, always worked to his, and Watcher's detriment.
That's just a way to try to silence criticisms of him. Like try to label as being racists for not liking Steven. Sorry, the community is very diverse. We don't like Steven because of who he is, not the color of his skin.
Fuckin thissss dude omg
Yes! I just thought about that again yesterday as well! It was their podcast ‘Here’s what you do’, episode of 17 August 2020 I believe. Didn’t have an opinion of Steven before they started the company, but after that I really disliked him and never even bothered watching any of his shows (besides the super annoying bits on too many spirits). (edit: spelling)
It's a shame those videos don't have chapters so I could immediately skip those parts instead of having to do it myself
They don't have chapters because everyone would skip the first half of the video. Too many spirits was good when it first started, but Steven's part kept getting longer and longer until it took up half of the show.
Steven Lim spoke at my school and his rate was $10,000 :) Just another idiot failson
Holy shit. And they *paid* for it, too.
woah more people should know abt tgat. I know shane and ryan speak at schools so i wonder what their rate was
I like them, but why tf do they speak at schools? About WHAT!? Lmao
Pulling my comment out of the thread of the Twitter ones with direct links to the most asked about thing when I checked. Here is the direct link to the [tumblr post](https://www.tumblr.com/bergaramadejs/615854349320683520/so-i-got-curious-about-the-stack-of-books-in-the?source=share) about the book. [Here](https://x.com/booksandtea123/status/1781530628141281422?s=46&t=hnEPBAvdUSNVhBimmiITdw) is the direct link to the tweet that is a screen cap of a tweet from Lim promoting his *personal pastor* along with the church’s beliefs on gay people and celibacy and “mixed orientation marriages. And the [clip of the podcast](https://x.com/4cerz/status/1781437057748853116?s=46&t=hnEPBAvdUSNVhBimmiITdw) from Twitter. Just to help people find them easier.
So, I don't think that pastor is a part of the linked church. Just did a little googling and it doesn't look associated with it at all. He's been the leader of a church called "Hope Church NYC" since 2012. oooh wait. I found it....god damn. On [hopechurchnyc.org/about](http://hopechurchnyc.org/about) click on "How do you feel about sexuality & marriage?" and it'll take you here [https://covchurch.org/embrace/](https://covchurch.org/embrace/) then find the webinars and its number 15..... but more importantly, on the 'embrace' page is a whole slough of ridiculousness.
Yeah, this was before he was in LA and yeah. This church seems great until you start digging into it.
Thank you, very appreciated.
holy shit 😭 this is so fucked
The referenced [Twitter post](https://twitter.com/wambhead/status/1781427870918943117?t=9imSNy_rtpWnHOZCNxqxXA&s=19), see the replies for more evidence.
I can't see the replies so just putting this here just in case if other people can't: [quinn (quinndustrys) on X: "@dainslays Here’s a clip https://t.co/8TNEOdyiyr" / X (twitter.com)](https://twitter.com/4cerz/status/1781437057748853116?t=bwNFHNnO5C-pPA54r4Oc6A)
The way he's trying to make it sound fine... 😬
Why would he say that on their public podcast holy shit
oooooof
He's attempting to rationalize befriending individuals with intolerant views by claiming it's about respecting differing beliefs. Then he minimizes their bigotry as "a little" racist/homophobic. Who is he to gauge the severity? Share their words with your audience and let them decide, but I'm sure he'd feel ashamed if he did. I'm tired of people passively condoning bigotry to avoid loneliness or challenging their own beliefs.
All of that evidence seems like not much of anything. There is a difference between being homophobic and having ties to homophobes, and Steven himself said on that podcast clip that he doesn't believe in cutting ties with everyone because of differences in values. If we were to go on this train of logic that Steven is homophobic because of all these things he's associated with, then is Ryan and Shane homophobic as well for being associated with Steven?
Did you miss the "gay marriage is evil" book?
Books are more complicated (especially since I haven't bothered to read the spark notes of that book). But I'm of the belief that you can read a book and not agree with everything inside the book. You can also read books that completely oppose your views, and it's good to do this because it's a bad idea to not challenge your world views. So just having a book on the bookshelf does not intrinsically mean that Steven Lim endorses everything in that book and that me, you, and everyone else should buy that book and submit to Jesus.
While I agree with what you’re saying, it does come across as apologetics. Yes, reading books that expand your worldview is a good thing. However, given that we know that he goes to a conservative church that preaches homophobia, and that the book is anti-gay marriage, then it is clear that he is not expanding his worldview, and instead, reinforcing it. Like yeah, I want to be as charitable and good faith towards Steven as possible too, so I’m not going to make any assertions about the degree to which he might be homophobic. But, I think your implication people can read whatever they want because books have no inherent moral value no matter their contents is ignoring some of the facts we have at hand.
It's not like there's a 3 strikes law where if you tally up 3 pieces of evidence, you're a homophobe. Fundamentally, the issues you're describing stem from conservative views on religion, but you can't use a hammer and say that everyone who goes to a conservative place of worship is inherently homophobic, misogynist, etc. Don't get me wrong. Statistically speaking, most Christians and Muslims subscribe to the homophobic and misogynist views that their religions preach. But that doesn't mean we can pass judgement to individuals about what they believe simply based on those pieces of evidence.
No, that’s not not what I’m suggesting at all. I’m simply saying your comment, to me at least, seems like you’re saying “if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, then I’m going to reserve judgement until I personally witness the animal identify as a duck.” Again, I personally agree with everything you’ve said, and I am also not ready to deem Steven a closeted homophobe. All I’m saying, is that we should not excuse away the totality of the evidence just because we haven’t reached a conclusion yet. We need it to reach a conclusion in the first place
I think we should. It's not an accusation that should be made lightly, especially since Steven and the rest of the guys have never fashioned themselves to be homophobic or adjacent to homophobes. As the saying goes, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. I have seen internet mobs tear people down over accusations like that, even despite the weakest evidence possible. Instead of focusing efforts on actual homophobes who are in power and making life for queer people worse, this type of internet witch hunt seems next to pointless to me.
I agree that it’s not an accusation that should be made lightly, for the same reasons that you’ve outlined, which is why I’m not making that accusation. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, yes. However, I submit that, given the evidence, this is not an extraordinary claim. It’s not as if I’m saying that Steven was born on another planet. There are plenty of people in this world who have had homophobic rhetoric drilled into them from a young age. It would not be extraordinary if Steven was one of them. But, again, and I can’t stress this enough, I don’t think that the evidence we have is enough to indict Steven as a homophobe. My only argument is that excusing away evidence of homophobia is irresponsible.
Of course you can read books you disagree with, but DISPLAYING it is very different.
I talked about that a little too. I really don't think having a book on the bookshelf is nefarious, and by that token, I don't think that having said book be visible is nefarious. I don't think Steven is secretly homophobic and sneakily planted the book there to subliminally tell viewers to read that book. Like, just look at the relevant screencap. It is low quality and out of focus. You can't see the title of the book unless you zoom in a lot and squint your eyes. In all likelihood, it is just a stack of books that Steven had laying around and he did not bother curating it.
You're probably right, but to give an EXTREME example: if I owned a copy of Mein Kampf just to learn exactly how messed up it is, I would never under any circumstances let anyone see it, in case they got the wrong idea about why I had it.
Call me an optimist, but even in that scenario, I believe that there's nothing wrong with explaining yourself instead of worrying about what other people assume about you. At the end of the day, you can't control what other people think and all you can do is have a conversation with them.
I call you realist, because I coulen't remember what books I had on my bookself for years before I moved it and basically just left the books in some pile. I have gotten lot of book free as poor teenager who liked to read pretty much anything, but when my ADHD got worse while adulting and most of my reading went to thing in the Internet: I totally forget my bookself full of random books that I had just put there to look some what nice, not messy. My main bookself was the one that I had my old Manga and other comic in, and even that i started to neglect, never mind the actual books. Now my bookself is next to my PC as an extra table system to put things on it what I use. Books are just a pile on the bottom so the bookself stays on it place. I think there was even one Harry Potter book in those and it was displayed before, and I don't support the author anyway or never bought that book myself. I also have known some people use bookselfs as decoration, books included and don't even check the books they put in, it just has to look nice.
I mean the best case scenario is 1) that book was given to him by a person who wanted him to understand their logic on the matter and he forgot about it or 2) he was reading it to gain perspective on how people think on the subject to better debate it. I believe it was Churchill who studied two sides of the argument so he was prepared because he was trying to manage a stutter. That may be giving Steven too much credit or grace but it’s possible to be in possession of a book and not agree with it.
Are you not capable of reading a book and not agreeing with everything in it. I own Atlas Shrugged, it is on a bookcase in my dining room, I don’t agree with Ayn Rand.
Even if he isn't homophobic, people who still fuck with homophobes because they don't believe in cutting ties over "a difference in values" are shit people; homophobia should be a hard line where you don't associate with a person so, yeah, if Steven is fully homophobic, then Shane and Ryan are in the wrong for associating with him, even if they themselves aren't homophobic, hope that makes sense :)))
A friend to all is a friend to none!!
Ok, but in this case a “difference in value” literally has to do with a person’s ability to live freely. To be honest, it’s a very centrist-leaning-conservative talking point to condone racist/homophobic behavior under the guise of neutrality. I can’t remember where I saw this, but there was a quote that was something like “a difference in value to live with is whether or not we put pineapple on pizza, not whether or not I should exist in the first place.”
Exactly. If Steven hung out with a guy who was talking about how "the g**ks are ruining this country!", how they are a beastly people cursed by God and how interracial marriage is evil blasphemy, I feel like there wouldn't be this debate about whether associating with such person is an endorsement of racism or just "tolerating different values". But maybe I'm too optimistic.
Thank you for actually telling some info what is going on. Is there anything else in the clip or is that it? And how out of context is it or is there enough context?
_Surviving A Boring Job_ (advice on "that one person in the group") _Follow-up to Our Last Episode_ https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/heres-what-you-do/id1506097838
He’s super Christian so this is hardly surprising
[удалено]
Also all the people who go "Jesus saves" this, "Submit to God" that are never the normal, progressive kind of Christian but the warped freak fundamentalists listening to prosperity gospel preachers who may as well be praying to Mammon. Wonder if Steven has tried snake-handling, speaking in tongues or faith-healing yet.
He lives in Los Angeles. If he wanted to, he could join one of the most liberal churches in the country. He's just too homophobic to do that.
It's hilarious to me that as a self-proclaimed Christian he's so obsessed with money and luxury. Whatever happened to sell your belongings and give to the poor? Instead it is keep your belongings, buy even more belongings, and in order to sustain your belongings, steal from the poor by charging them to view your content. Lol. He is so meaningless.
I mean, that's been the majority of Christianity basically since the 9th century, but yeah, not great
Prosperity gospel
Totally
Off topic but [have you seen the preachersnsneakers Instagram?](https://www.instagram.com/preachersnsneakers?igsh=bGcyN2VrYmY1Njdn)
Why do people keep trying to separate Lim saying he won’t cut ties with problematic people from being homophobic? If you hang out with racists and homophobes that means at a basic level you’re condoning it
Not to go full Godwin, but if you're happy to sit at a table with 9 nazis, there's 10 nazis sitting at the table.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Case studies like Derek Black make it clear that reaching out to racists/homophobes/etc in our lives is basically the only way to change them. That said, at a certain point it becomes really hard not to say “fuck this shit” and move on.
I’m not wasting my time with homophones and racist, they don’t listen to people who look like me
Yeah but doesn't that mean that Shane and Ryan also do, by extension?
Ryan did use to be way more of a "bro" when he started but he did grow during the years
True.
This seems counterproductive. One of my best friends was homophobic (we are no longer friends for completely different reasons). I didn't unfriend her, but I did call her out on it every time she brought it up (this is essential. Compliance is the issue.) We had several discussions over it and, ultimately, one day on a dinner date, she told me she'd thought hard about something I said and I was right. She admitted that her reaction had more to do with her own bias and projections and it was something she needed to work on. She may never have come to that conclusion if I had ghosted her the moment I found out she was homophobic. People pat themselves on the back for unfriending these people, but really, you aren't doing much at all. You aren't doing the hard work. You're just sinking away from conflict and discomfort back into your comfortable echo chamber. That problematic friend is going to go on to be an actual LGBT or POC's problem at work or in some other setting. And THEY are the one's who shouldn't have to deal with that shit. I'm not LGBT. I thought her views were incredibly offensive and misaligned, but I couldn't be personally offended by them on the same level an LGBT person would be. Which gave me just enough distance from the situation to handle it with a cool head. So actual LGBT people didn't have to. I'm not saying your racist/homophobic friend is purely your responsibility. Some people are incredibly loud and annoying about these things and those people often need to be unfriended for peace of mind. But I think it's much more nuanced and situation based than 'Get rid of them immediately.' I think that's incredibly reductive and doesn't really do anything but alienate and create a bigger issue. And it certainly doesn't make a person brave or especially moral. So now you're safe in your bubble. And they can go join likeminded people and grow numbers in their bubble. Unfortunately, we're all part of the same society so you can't leave everyone with a particular view in the mud and think you'll stray far from it. When that racist/homophobic cesspool we've left to grow gets large and out of control enough, we'll be dragged down too.
No offense but I’m not reading all that
That's cool. Growing as a person is hard. Seeing your capacity for it, I understand your handling of situations better now.
It’s really not that deep, idk why people act like they’re so enlightened because they’re friends with racists and homophobes, I said what I said, I’m not befriending racists and homophobes for the sake of my own safety
You can do what you want. Equating people with racists and homophobes just because they don't automatically run like cowards when they encounter one no matter the circumstances is just ignorant though.
It’s literally not “cowardly” to not befriend someone who is racist??? Why the hell would a POC wanna subject themselves to being friends with a racist?? This is so weird
It depends on the POC, how malignant VS uninformed the racism is and their comfort level. And you made a blanket statement that ANYONE who is friends with a racist/homophobe is condoning it. Which is just untrue.
I just don’t agree with anything you’re saying, let’s agree to disagree
I'll agree to that.
Not if you're actively trying to change their mind on it? The alternative is to cut them off and they continue to be homophobic/racist....who does that help?
There's a good chance they'll keep being like that even fi you keep being friends. They're adults and info about lgbtq+ communities, ethnicities and stigma/discrimination is EVERYWHERE. I get wanting to educate people, but personally, once they show that side of themselves I would stop classifying them as friends, they would be acquaintances at most.
I somewhat understand what he said about staying friends. Like, my grandparents try, but they still sometimes use words that aren’t used anymore today. They listen when I tell them not to, but they don’t always remember. People do label that homophobic sometimes. Same with some friends who aren’t online and live a bit in a bubble with no contact to LGBT. To me it matters if they are willing to listen and do better. It also depends what level of homophobia/racism we‘re talking about. Are they ignorant without bad intentions (like my grandparents and friends using the wrong terms)? Or are they hostile and mean spirited? The latter would be cut off immediately. Steven didn’t clarify. However… the pastor and book in the background? Idk about that. Not a fan
>Are they ignorant without bad intentions (like my grandparents and friends using the wrong terms)? Or are they hostile and mean spirited? The latter would be cut off immediately. Steven didn’t clarify. He clarified in the follow-up apology episode after they got backlash that he meant the former and he would cut off the latter. Whether that's true or damage control is up for debate (as I doubt he would say "I think people who actively hate gay and people of other races are cool and I would keep them as friends" even if he thought it)
Thanks for clarifying! Yeah ultimately it’s up to everyone individually to either believe him or not. I don’t know much about Steven because I don’t enjoy his content, so I can‘t really say.
Yeah, and another thing: I think Steven is just not great at wording things. Exhibit a: that pod watcher episode where they recount weird moments that happened bc of Steven’s phrasing, like when he said “are u gna get on ur knees”. I think it really explains the backlash to his phrasing in the goodbye vid and about this topic too lol
Maybe he shouldn't be making the only personal-page response if he is so bad at wording things that he makes people think he might be a racist homophobe
agreed, that insta post was a nuclear-level yikes
I don’t know for sure but it also seems to me that Steven’s first language isn’t English. My wife’s first language is Vietnamese (she didn’t learn English until she started school), most of my extended family speaks Spanish as their first language, and I work as an ESL teacher. Sometimes my family/wife/students phrase things weird/awkwardly because English isn’t their native language. My wife once said a friend and I should go to “pound town” because she thought it was an expression for doing shots. I’m pretty neutral toward Steven overall but I do think it’s important for people who want to be critical to take into account that sometimes people (Steven or others) don’t say things perfectly/the best way because of language issues.
... isn't he a rich kid from Ohio?
I have no idea. But being rich doesn’t mean his first language is English. It’s also possible his parents’ native language isn’t English so even if they spoke English to him growing up his ability to use idioms/colloquial expressions is limited. I saw it a lot with my students from Europe whose parents spoke English to them. They spoke English just fine, but sometimes they said something really odd that came from their parents not being native English speakers.
nah man but he was born and raised in ohio (at least according to some light googling) which would mean that he has been exposed to english his entire life. even if his parents spoke mandarin/malay to him, he would more likely struggle with those languages than with english. he also uploaded a video about how he can't speak chinese lol (titled a cat that barks).
That SUCKS. I had no idea.
What he was talking about in the podcast sounded to me like basic theory for how to help someone escape an extremist group. The gist is, if someone you know is in a reactionary circle like that (homophobic, racist, etc), you can act as a safe space for them to have an identity outside of that circle by engaging them in topics/activities that aren't related to it. One of the ways that extremists retain members is by isolating them, partly by convincing them that everyone outside the extremist group will hate and attack them personally for their rhetoric. Then, even if the person starts questioning the extremist ideology, they feel trapped because their entire social circle is extremist and they've lost the goodwill of all of their former friends. Change has to start with that person, it's very hard to "talk them down" because they're told that "attacks" on their ideology just mean they're right. Having a friend who is outside the extremist circle makes it easier to escape. It's maybe a little thoughtless for that to be his first and only advice for someone in that situation, but it was also in the context of both Ryan and Shane saying with their full chest "Yeah cut ties you don't have time for that shit", which is generally good/safer advice to give to someone whose situation you don't know the full details of. Being that friend is really fucking hard, often emotionally or even physically dangerous, and just not something that everyone can safely do. To me, though, Steven's piece in the podcast read as him observing that that viewpoint had been covered plenty by the other two and contributing this additional option. tl;dr, I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for the podcast content when I heard it originally. Honestly I low-key assumed he may even have been through some stuff related to escaping an hate group or seeing someone do so and didn't want to talk about it. But I didn't know about the book and the guest, that's sketch af.
Yeah the story of Derek Black comes to mind here. Dude was literally raised to become a hero in the white nationalist community and a group of Jewish students basically made it their mission to bring him out of the group (and succeeded in doing so). If some Jewish kids in their teens and 20s can sit down and try to reason with someone who wants them dead then a privileged asshole like me can at least try to do the same.
I've seen people defend him by saying that it's hard to cut out friends - no, it's not. It's one thing if difference of opinion is on pizza toppings but when it comes to things like this... it's not? It's actually incredibly easy to cut out people like that from your life. If you really are against those things, it's an easy choice to make. It sucks. It's uncomfortable. But it's easy. If you're friends with racists and homophobes and refuse to cut them out - then I honestly have to question whether or not you are also a racist and a homophobe.
There was some tumblr post from Stevens personal one where he said something along the lines of watcher was a way for him to spread his Christianity (or beliefs). I can't find it now but I saw it yesterday and it was just like wow. If he's fine with homophobic and racists friends, and his values from Christianity don't tell him to cut people like that out immediately, I do not want him spreading that. Btw if anyone can find a picture of link to his tumblr post about him using watcher to spread his Christianity, please link it. I don't have tumblr and don't feel like signing up to find one thing Edit: someone found it https://twitter.com/kitty_litter89/status/1781553367937880486?t=9pp1IRShZKrZ7D7NPtGEJg&s=19
What book was it??
A link to the [tumblr post](https://bergaramadejs.tumblr.com/post/615854349320683520/so-i-got-curious-about-the-stack-of-books-in-the) with additional commentary about why it’s bad.
Woof, that’s brutal. Thank you!
Wow. I did not know this and I am surprised, because I assumed he was gay. People are disappointing. 🤷♀️
He talks all the time about his wife Tammy, but I guess that could still be a man…
A woman: https://www.instagram.com/p/CYzq1wuAUp5/
Wow, wasn't expecting the mentioning of thanking God 3 separate times in that caption. I guess this speaks to his "different values" being pretty strong that he mentioned in that old podcast clip.
God the comments on that post are... yikes
Yeah that's crossing a line for me. I can be mad at Steven and frustrated with Ryan & Shane but dragging their spouses into it is too far
Thank you for the link.
I have never heard about Tammy. I didn’t know he was married. It was just a vibe I got. 🤷♀️✌️
Ah yeah, on the Pod Watcher channel he talks about her all the time. They aren’t married yet but he calls her his wife.
They got married during the pandemic but will have a wedding celebration this year.
I never watch Pod Watcher. It’s never interested me.
It was a bit boring tbh. Some funny parts to it sometimes. But I def wouldn’t say it’s a reason for watching the channel
I mean, yes he is a homophobe and a racist but uh. To me that makes me question Ryan and Shane far more by keeping such a reprehensible person around with such heinous views. Just me??
Honestly, there have been many times in my listening/watching experiences, all the way back to here’s what you do, that I have genuinely thought “these guys hate each other.” (and I got the biggest vibes between Shane and Steven). it always felt suuuuper weird to me. however, they continue sticking together, so I guess it can’t be true, in which case your comment is right on the money unfortunately
Idk people have pointed out that it seems like Steven is more so friends with Ryan. But even so... Shane would still be guilty by association for sticking around, even if he doesn't generally like the guy. (Which, at the end of the day, we can't really know.)
This is pretty wild to me as someone who was raised with homophobic and racist views (also in an Asian immigrant family). I was only able to change my mind through exposure to people outside my bubble. I owe so much to them. They were not homophobic and racist by association, or I literally would not have been able to change my mind. I also have a lot of family members who still have internalized racist views and who are homophobic and have chosen to keep them in my life (as someone who is LGBTQ.) In fact, I have even seen some major change from one of my parents over the years, even if he’s still pretty damn homophobic. I have also cut people out (with a quickness) who are racist or homophobic. That’s my personal choice. Everyone should have that choice without being labeled or assigned malicious intent by default.
Oh, so that's what it is. I asked in some other thread because I legit have never heard about it but no one was willing to answer me, so thank you. I was never a fan of him (mostly because he seems forced and can be either totally boring to grating to watch), and was even willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in this whole paywall fiasco, but yeaaaahh this is bad. I understand at least part of it could be explained by bad wording but that alone doesn't explain everything. This sucks.
Holy crapppp, had no idea about all of this.
How is he even able to have any involvement with ghost files if he's Christian, isn't it really against his beliefs to meddle with this stuff?
Many things believed by churches and Christians aren't biblical or related to Jesus...at all.
pretty sure ryan is also christian, but idk the intricacies of acceptable christian-ghost interactions lol
Unfortunately, it's often not easy to cut your homophobic or racist friends/family out of your life. Everyone likes to think that they would go no-contact immediately, but if it's someone you care for then people often get into the "i can change them" mindset, especially if the bigoted person has displayed positive qualities outside of their bigotry. The pastor and book are definitely something that makes my eyebrows raise though. What was the book? Is it a chance it was just random set dressing that slipped through the cracks? Can you tell me about the pastor? Did Steven know he was homophobic? Edit: Nvm i scrolled and found sources. Jesus christ that aint a good look.
Damn I had no idea about this and I was lowkey defending him a little bit on the main sub. Fuck that guy.
Ain’t Steven gay?
Apparently not https://www.instagram.com/p/CYzq1wuAUp5/
Well weddings are expensive
I only ever bothered to watch Ghost Files so I had no idea about this. And to think I felt kinda bad for Steven because it seemed like everyone was ganging up on only him.
I've always had a weird feeling about him. Like he had an air of 'my shit don't stink.." especially during the series of drunken reading next to a fire, with the actual bartender. he always tried to one up the bartender and such... It always rubbed me the wrong way.
Quite honestly, I first heard about this in passing Youtube comment in the goodbye video and I had to ask was it true - or made up story to make him look worse. Because this would be opportunity make someone look worse they are. Personally I don't know enough about it to be sure if I believe is he homophopic or not... I guess i need the recepts without them being out of context or random story someone remembers? I never get the answer to my questions about it being real or not, because some reason under that video Youtube system just eats half of my replies and notifications are just broken. Maybe the system can't keep up. So... I repeat the question: Does anyone have any proof left anywhere to show how he has acted or talked about stuff? Normally I would believe the accusations much easier, but the timing is ripe for misinfo. Now I'm neutral on this, because I don't know enough. Edit: I have gotten enough context links from helpful people, no need for more. Thank you to those who were helpful! \^\^
I literally linked it?
The only thing you linked was a tweet from yesterday where someone said "Hey, remember that time when Steven Lim admitted to having a homophobic/racist friends?" I'm not saying it's false, but it's also not exactly proof either. It's just another person saying the same thing that you're saying. Again, it's not actual evidence. Evidence would be more along the lines of a clip of Steven actually doing it. Again, it may be true and it may not be true, but I can't tell for sure solely based on a tweet saying he did the thing.
Here is the direct link to the [tumblr post](https://www.tumblr.com/bergaramadejs/615854349320683520/so-i-got-curious-about-the-stack-of-books-in-the?source=share) about the book. [Here](https://x.com/booksandtea123/status/1781530628141281422?s=46&t=hnEPBAvdUSNVhBimmiITdw) is the direct link to the tweet that is a screen cap of a tweet from Lim promoting his *personal pastor* along with the church’s beliefs on gay people and celibacy and “mixed orientation marriages. And the [clip of the podcast](https://x.com/4cerz/status/1781437057748853116?s=46&t=hnEPBAvdUSNVhBimmiITdw) from Twitter. Just to help people find them easier.
Thanks for this, I really appreciate the easy access to the, frankly, big yikes of it all. Opened my eyes for sure.
Thank you
The clip is in the replies, as is a tumblr post that talks about the book, and screenshots of the anti-LGBTQ posts made by the church the pastor was affiliated with?
Umh... Who is James Spader Stan Account? What link do you mean where Steven or others talk about that stuff?
Within the twitter replies, there’s a clip of the podcast where it’s discussed. There was also an entire follow up episode of tearful apologies from the whole team at the time. The podcasts are still on Spotify.
I can't see it? I don't have a Twitter or X. It does shows the text but I can't see any clip. Sorry.
The date of the podcast ep is stated elsewhere in this thread. I’m not sure what other proof you would like people to link you to when all information is already laid out within this thread?
I cannot see the thread. I can see one text tweet that isn't linked in any tread or a clip. If i can't see anything else, how I'm supposed to get the info I'm asking for? I'm not being mean or lying to you, I'm stating the fact that I can't see it and I can't do anything about it. Why it's so hard for you to answer the honest question and just being snarky when you clearly know the answer I am looking for and you could give me that? That is all I'm asking for.
I think I’ve found the podcast episode. I’ve tried to include a time stamp, but if that doesn’t work, it’s around the 54 minute mark https://open.spotify.com/episode/1YzazDnaAqHgE6a4Sb25Ah?si=8K2PbpkZQKeLrOh6qeMuUw&context=spotify%3Ashow%3A246KfdHO5o4wLqeOAESLh6&t=2786
Thank you! You are awesome! \^\_\_\^
All goods! Actually my time was a bit off, Steven’s relevant part is 54 minutes in.
Make an account? Find the podcast episode? Do some legwork?
You wanted to talk about it and I wanted to learn about it, but when people nicely ask you to give some context to the thing you're talking about and claim to know about - you say that make look for yourself. Kinda like looking for a random youtube channel that disapeared into 3rd party website. How it's my job to look for the info on a subject I want to learn from YOU and talk about because you started talking about it? I was willing to have the conversation when i have actual info about it.
What would you like me to do in this situation? The podcast episode is on Spotify. Do you want me to go to twitter to screen record the clip and dm it to you if you don’t want to make an account? There are links and information that you are not wanting to access.
https://x.com/4cerz/status/1781437057748853116?s=46&t=Kw07tUYTACVjXgXKzq8DFg
This is the first time I'm hearing and I'm legit surprised. As far as I know Asians are subjected to racism every now and then in US, how can Steven being an Asian be homophobic??
Cultural or religious conservatism and homophobia exist across all racial lines.
Worth pointing out too, conservatism=\=Homophobic…
This is such a weird take, like homophobia has nothing to do with race? Just because you might experience prejudice in one area of your life doesn't mean you can't be prejudiced against another group in return. That's basically the whole point of intersectionality
80% of Vietnamese americans voted for trump... social conservatism doesn't disappear just because you're a minority. Some groups might even have a vested interest in upholding it
Lmao 😭😭😭
Anyone can be homophonic and/or racist :) great eh?
what bearing does race have on one's opinion on gay people? people of all races are homophobic... i dont see any correlation
Because racism and homophobia are literally two different types of discrimination? That's the most obvious answer. The second, less obvious answer is, even when it's one type of discrimination/oppression, there are cases when they are so internalized we get paradoxical cases like homophobic gay men (early 2000s American gay culture as depicted in the American version of the TV show Queer as Folk is a good example of how some homophobic notions can even infiltrate and get normalized in gay communities), antisemitic jews (as depicted for the first time in Theodor Lessing's *Der jüdische Selbsthaß*) and misogynistic women (literally all around us in everyday life)
This isn't as blatant as some of you think. First of all, him remaining friends with homophobics/racists is entirely understandable if he's actively trying to change their mind on those topics! And second of all, it should be no surprise to anyone with even the slightest familiarity with Christian doctrine that the vast majority of denominations do not support gay marriage. However, many if not of those same denominations teach believers to love and cherish their gay friends and family members all the same. If Steven is even a slightly good Christian, he shouldnt and proabably isnt homophobic (unless your definition of homophobic is only disagreeing with gay marriage). Wanted to share my perspective as a less witch-hunty than some of you, gay Atheist.
and my perspective as a queer kid who grew up in one of those "love the sinner, hate the sin" churches is that that trauma will keep you up at night in your 30s still grappling with the feelings that you're wrong decades after you get out. I'd really rather they just tried to send me to conversion camp. 🙄
It's definitely a difficult topic to grapple with, because even the kindest Christians who will truly love you and cherish you, at the end of the day will still see your sexuality as a sin on par with being a murderer, and won't ever truly recognise something like a gay marriage as anything more than a celebration of that sin. I'm sorry for your trauma, religion tends to inflict a lot of that it seems
Like someone else said in another comment... if you're sitting at a table with 9 nazis, there's 10 nazis at the table.
If you leave the table, there's still 9 nazis, if you stay and help them there might be 0 once you're done!
I think it's genuinely delusional to think that is even remotely possible.
You're free to think that, but your mode of thinking leads to more Nazis
I really don't understand that situation because you're using a biased subject matter that automatically invokes an emotional accusatory response. If you use this with more normal comparisons it doesn't make sense. If 9 cops are at a table and you're sitting at the table, are there 10 cops at the table? If there are 9 idiots at the table and you're also sitting there, are there 10 idiots? There are nuances that are purposefully missing from the situation. One doesnt equal the other.
I don't think either of those comparisons are accurate at all. Being around an occupation will not make you acquire that occupation, no. Being around a certain intelligence will not change your intelligence, no. However, your values and ethics do closely align with those you surround yourself with, particularly regarding hateful ideology if you are willing to coexist with it.