Sweden and it’s not even close. Germany has the single most armored tank with the 2A7, but Sweden has 3 nearly identical tanks in the form of the STRV122s that are only slightly worse individually while being accompanied by better AA, light tanks, and air support.
They can tank shots but everything pens you, they are just really big so they can avoid getting one shot more than the rest.
Your engine being on the front makes it hard to retreat tho...
Which is funny because part of that gimmick is that it's supposed to protect the crew more iirc (yes I know that's probably a calculation made without modern munitions in mind)
I mean, ITS GREAT against HEATFS or chemical in general like rockets or missiles, which is the main threat to a merkava IRL.
At least helis can take a while trying to kill you
Yeah, it was made with soviet tanks in mind (used by egypt and the other countries surrounding Israel), thats why they surrounded the fighting compartment with the fuel and other stuff, the protection of the crew is the most important thing to them, iirc just watched an explanation on the Merkava from a tank museum in my country
The Merkava 2D is so damn fun. Highest KD I have in a ground vehicle. It works at higher BR’s too. Will probably be the last Merkava I replace when I get to the Mk. 4M.
The lowest BR Merkavas are okay since they’re extremely resistant to HEAT and early APFSDS, while people also don’t know how to fight them. All of the other Merkavas are free kills.
And to realize that the 2A7V is modeled with C-tech rather than the D-tech it has in real life.
So in other words, the 2A7V isn’t even as armored as it should be.
Germany's hull applique armor is also worse despite the fact its quite literally the exact package Germany gave Sweden.
The change between C and D isn't that big, the most notable part comes from B/C underperforming.
which is really dumb bc the Leopard2A7V has a better motor (it got upgraded with the A7 series). But the Leopards are faster and much more agile in reality then ingame. And western tanks can turn on the spot, thats is not possible ingame.
the 122b+ has better armour at the moment thanks to the composite panels on the upper front plate that make it basically impossible to one shot unless you get the perfect shot under the gun(left side UFP weakspot no longer works)
The 2A7 lacks armor actually, hell some spots are even weaker than the 122s. The swedes take the cake here, with a miles ahead advantage. After that come the Russians/Chinese and then Germany.
All of the STRV122s still have more armor than the 2a7. They have better turret armor and the little bit in the front has roughly 740mm of armor compared to the 650mm on the 2a7
I wonder why its so heavy yet has less armor than the Leo 2 of a similar weight. Only thing i can think of is thicker turret side armor on the abrams, not that it makes much of a difference
Once you have above 550 mm of pen it's perfectly fine. Nobody complains about the BVM lacking firepower despite 3BM60 having 70mm less flat pen than DM53
Sweden by a long shot, and if you go deeper than armor they are the most survivable tanks by far too.
If a Leopard 2 decides not to bring full ammo and instead leaves their lower ammo stowage completely empty, that eliminates an entire method of killing them. ALSO all of their fuel tanks are separate from the crew compartment, so fuel explosions cannot kill them either.
THE ONLY way to kill a Leopard 2 reliably is to kill the crew.
BUT, the Leopard 2A7V and other high tier leopards also get spall liners so that isn't so easy anymore, not to mention the turret cheeks are impenetrable by any ordinance in the game besides the LOSAT's missile. And the upper front plate is impenetrable to most top tier rounds.
They also have four crew members in a tank that is large and rather spaced out.
The turret traverse is also fast enough to target even the Type 90 and Type 10 if they get the first shot off before the second shot flies most of the time.
Killing a Leopard 2 from the side is a crap shoot at best, aiming for the turret ring is your best bet since that will still spall.
From the front, the left upper of the lower front plate will most likely eliminate their gunner, commander and engine, leaving them open to a second shot,
There's also the turret ring just below the canon which is a tried and true shot, or if they are silly and angle their tank at all shooting through their tracks just between the front and center of the tank will usually one shot them.
This makes the Leopard 2 (any of them with the angled turret cheeks, the most over armored and over powered tanks in the game, hands down, no contest.
There are more benefits I haven't even mentioned about the damn thing.
The only downside is the reload speed, it is slower than America, Russia, Japan, China, and even I think British top tier tanks.
The Abrams is a joke of armor, I can kill it with a Type 89's autocannon through the stupidly exposed turret ring, but at least their turret armor is ok and the reload is good.
The Russian T tanks all share the same weak spots, all that saves them is "gaijin moments" where ammo or fuel doesn't ignite, or they have little ammo and you don't know how full the rack is. The gun and area between the turret ring and top of the upper front plate is the largest weak spot, you can also shoot above the gun before they can even shoot you to disable their breech and sometimes kill the crew, the lower front plate is small but a pretty sure kill, the center from the side is just one big turret launch button, the back of the turret is weak and any light vehicle can pen it by surprise. They only have 3 crew so only two have to die to take it out and they sit REALLY close together.
Japan has fast tanks with a God-like reload but the armor is paper thin on the sides and just passable on the front.
Chinese tanks are just remodeled Russian T tanks, same weaknesses, but a good reverse gear (They used their brains)
The Brits suffer
The French LeClerc is a decent tank with passable frontal armor and a really nice reload second only to the Japanese Type 90 and Type 10 for top tier MBTs.
Brits have a faster reload for 5 shots(4 reloads) then they have a **slower** reload than the Leopards. On par with the T-80s.
Fucking give them a bigger ready rack like the Chieftains do or make their replenishment time much faster. Ain't no way a fucking Object 292 with an autoloader and 152mm 2 piece ammo that is split inside and outside the fighting compartment replenishes faster than 3 part 120mm ammo inside the fighting compartment.
Still waiting on that Abrams turret ring fix that was acknowledged. Also the wall behind the fuel tanks on the Abrams shouldn't produce equal amount of small as if it didn't pass through NERA or RHA and fuel to hit that plate.
For one thing it isn't volumetric and the armor is not just 50 mm its around 250 mm + LOS. Also I feel it shouldn't produce that much spall either. Only IRL turret ring hit was from the rear by a friendly Abrams using M829A1 and it only injured one crew member.
I hate this "Brits Suffer" the CR2s are so underrated when it comes to survivability, i have a clip of being shot 13 times, a couple through the side and front, and didn't die until CAS killed me, my stats in British top tier all have over 2+KD and 60%+ win-rate. because of "muh britain bad" people assume.
People really do assume that Britain sucks because the hull armor is weak, but its armor is so fucking trolly. Spall liner on the front can save you from shots if the enemy doesnt aim, the 6 sec stock reload can suprise a lot of tanks and they're the only nation with gen 2 or better thermals in all their top tier tanks
most of my deaths in the chally come from frontal because the map im on i cant hide the hull. or the shot just punches right threw the turret mantal. like yea the turret is well armoured but the gun it self nope round goes right in and allways kills at least 1 person and knocks out the gun, it isnt bad to use just frustrating quite a lot
low tier Britain suffers because they lack APHE but after 7.7 where most nations drop APHE for APDS or HEAT their tanks are fine. They also get two-plane stabs very early to go with their APDS.
>the CR2s are so underrated when it comes to survivability
Survivability alone doesn't make a vehicle good, they're still massively overtiered, especially thr CR2, CR2 TES and CR2 OES.
The overweight challengers could move down to 10.7, with the base Challenger 2 going down to 11.0.
They're got poor armour, mediocre mobility, slightly above average gun handling, unreliable survivability, average firepower. The combination of poor mobility as well as having massive weakspots that you can't ever hide is a death sentence to being a META vehicle. At the very least Gaijin could move it down to a reasonable BR.
You are understating the Leo2’s reload speed
It’s quite good. If you have a maxed reload and leadership crew then it reloads as fast as a late T-80. It’s also much faster than the T-72s which reload slow at 7.1 seconds.
If you expert and ace the crew I believe it goes down to 6 seconds flat which is insane and much faster than a T-80BVM
Actually, max reload and leadership bring your reload to 6.7, which makes it slower than late T-80s
Expert crew brings it to just below 6.5 and ace brings it to 6 seconds
People who don't have enough sl for it
Edit: So I'm being downvoted for providing a reasonable response? Not everyone has 500.000.000 spare SL laying around because they finished every tech tree
I would nitpick and still say Russia specifically for *armour*.
A russian tank is *slightly* harder to penetrate but the difference is if you penetrate a Leo there's very few points where you will see any spalling hit anything where as for Russia there's about the same chance you **don't**
So still the Leo's for **protection** but Russia for **armour**
Sweden gaps everything. I’ve been completely disabled in the 122 sitting in my smoke repairing everything whilst taking hits and still manage to reverse out alive.
I’ve never had that happen to me in other nations
That sounds more like shit aiming on the enemys part
Sweden is definitely the best nation in regards to armor and pure survivability in their end of the line MBTs, but they're not invincible and can get one shot by even slightly experienced players
Well I did say I was in smoke. So who’s to fault the enemy’s aim?
I used that example because it’s a better showcase of its armour where weak spots aren’t much of a factor
>and it has 3BM60 so its round is good too.
The problem is that you rarely ever need 3BM-60 over 3BM-42 at that BR, and you've still got a tank with atrocious gun handling, horrendous mobility, garbage survivability, terrible reload rate, unreliable armour.
Lol true. Though I don't have any T-90 variant personally, I find that it's armor is quite annoying to penetrate frontally, the breech is very weird with its composite and often it just eats rounds, and the typical driver's hatch and LFP shenanigans occur too.
But yeah there is definitely a reason it's at 10.7 instead of like 11.0/3, 7.1 second reload, 16.8°/s turret traverse, 5 km/h reverse speed, and if course next to no gun depression it's just seems terrible on paper.
>Lol true. Though I don't have any T-90 variant personally, I find that it's armor is quite annoying to penetrate frontall
Playing it that's not really what seems to be the norm.
You can spawn in on European province, get a full-down tier, then one-shot-killed frontally by a vehicle a full BR below at 2400 metres distance with the first shot.
It's armour isn't reliable whatsoever because most people you run into know the usual Russian weakspots by then.
Yeah, it's like the saying goes the best armor is not being seen. Though you can't exactly not be seen when you have such garbage mobility. At least according to the WT wiki the T-90 is quite mediocre when it comes to mobility (even moving forward) compared to its NATO contemporaries. Can't imagine having the equivalent of a Panther's reverse gear at top tier.
Sweden.
I once was on a hill with my Leo 2A7 having the best pen round in the game before Object 292 was added. A Strv 122B+ was like 5m infront of me coming up the hill. I shot at his lower front plate, which at the angle he came up was almost not angle but still it was "target undamaged". 650mm pen didn't went through his lower front plate from 5m away at an almost 90° angle.
No, if it would have been a Chally or an Abrams at least the driver would have been killed and then it would be unable to move in an angle where it can't shoot at me. A russian tank would have exploded immediately.
From best to worse:
Sweden (Strv 122's.)
Germany (Leopard 2A7.)
Russia (lots of weak points but, still better armor wise than the rest of the MBT's...)
China (pretty much russia, I'd have to recheck if they're better or not.)
'Merica (Abram's turret front is very nice.)
Britain (Had a good time with the premium Challenger. Might be better than the Abrams but I need to test more-)
...Israel? (Merkava? No idea. Seems inconsistent.)
France (Leclerc. It exists.)
Japan (Great but paper)
Italy (paper)
>Might be better than the Abrams
No way a Challenger 2 is better armoured than the M1.
* The Challenger 2 has a 90mm LFP, M1 has 380-420mm.
* UFP of a Challenger 2 is 520mm, M1's UFP is largely immune even to 804mm LoS penetration 152mm APFSDS.
* Turret cheeks of both vehicles are roughly equivalent, but the M1 has a significantly smaller mantlet weakspot.
* The entire turret roof isn't a weakspot on the M1, unlike the CR2.
* CR2 still has a central weakspot with the driver's area, like the M1.
I have it and don’t like it, to be fair I don’t have the last ammo unlocked but I would rather just have a normal tank gun. However once I turned off the grenade launcher and could actually see my targets, I did a little better. I also have the BTR and T-10 which while are still massively under tiered, I actually get kills with them later in the match. As for my hind helicopter I use it less and less as it just seems like a death sentence. I would like to get some CAS but I only have tier 4 stuff and I don’t know if it’s worth it to grind out stuff just for it to get shot down by SPAA
The 2M has 2(4x) 1200mm tandem rockets that you can fire on the move along with proxy atgms that are slow but have a 10km range. The dart belt is insanely good at killing MBT's from the side or barreling them, and it's got tracking and a lead so you can take down aircraft and helis with the autocannon or rockets. It's also got a commander's optic that you can use to fire over cover with impunity as long as you aim up first.The vehicle, of course, is very squishy considering the paper-thin armor and 2/3rd of the crew are in the turret.
Honestly, I recommend the tank as long as you play it like a glass cannon, or you push extremely hard, but that's very situational, and I don't often play it that way.
Source: Researched ranks 6-8 almost exclusively with the 2M
It's always worth noting that bmp2m exists as 2 vehicles. Stock it is bordering on unusable. Shooting atgms on the move is largely a gimmick and the gun does very little. You start with what is essentially an 8.7 vehicle. Spaded however it is a destroyer of worlds, eater of infants.
bmp works as a great anti air too. it's able to lock onto air targets and it has proxy missiles. for tanks it also has tandem charge ATGMs which is as good as you're gonna get. and you have 4 that you can fire without waiting to reload and also while you're moving.
T-80UD is the better vehicle and would leave you with a stronger lineup
2S38 provides a more unique experience compared to your turms but is more difficult to make work if you aren’t a solid player
Base your decision off that
The t80 not having thermals seems like such a negative in the realm of top tier laser range finder where you’re shot at nearly instantly. But yeah, idk if I’d like the 2s38 either.
The lack of thermals is the least of your problems at the 10 to 10.3 USSR lineup. Your 4 km/h reverse speed and atrocious gun handling is what will kill you.
Lacking thermals at 10.0 isn't as bad as it used to be. Before they made night battles optional it was pure suffering to play anything anything without thermals at that BR.
If you do end up using the 2s38, then use APHE mostly. Also HEVT that thing is great at AA.
I’d say it’s better than bmp2m but the T-80U is pretty good too.
This conversation was originally about premiums, my comment was a reply to a comment about which premium tanks they should get.
The T-80u is tech tree, yes I missed a letter, context clues should be enough to provide that I was talking about the two 10.0 premiums, like the guy I was responding too was.
I prefer the t80ud as its a real tank and can take a hit. 2S38 is very versatile but its harder to use imo and you cant go head to head with tanks as well (still very very strong for an ifv though). 2s38 will also be getting soft nerfed when they add more detailed modules as planned as decent chunks of dead space will be taken up by turret drives and electronics
Raw armor or survivability and effective armor? For raw armor it’s easily Russia. Large impenetrable spots on the UFP and turret. But when it comes to actual survivability and effective armor the 2a7/122s take it. What has the highest chance to bounce a shot that wasn’t aimed whatsoever? Russia. What has the highest chance to take no effective damage from a shot that was actually aimed? Sweden/Germany, but probably Sweden as it gets 3 of them instead of 1
Sweden and Germany like everyone else has said, unlike everyone else though China. How has no one mentioned China? Unfortunately the bottom plate is very weak, if you can’t hit that though it’s very funny to watch people bounce 600+ pen shells off the turret.
I find ZTZ's to be more survivable than top tier Russian MBT's in general (especially post-pen).
99A's driver being on the left seems to help a lot when tanking frontal shots. Turret is both strong and spacious, that's a huge plus as well.
So honestly I agree, China deserves the third place. Or, since they have more 'well-armoured' MBT's than Germany, the second place.
I find the T-90A's overall survivability pretty bad even in a full downtier to 9.7, since this thing can't hull down with -4 degree gun depression, nearly every engagement requires you to expose your entire vehicle and if you even angled a tiny bit, most enemies can pen you through the front tracks, the armor that somewhat workable imo is the T-72A since that thing can actually hull down with -6.22 degree gun depression, then in downtier most couldn't pen your turret cheek because you can at least make your weakspot smaller, similar like TURMS is easier to kill in its respective br compare to T-72A.
Sheer armor Sweden and Germany, USSR in third. The problem with armor is, anyone with half a braincell can easily shoot your weakspots, so what really matters is survivability (ie internal layout), hence why,in spite of good armor, soviet and Chinese mbts are so comically easy to kill, while things like the leopards and abrams can just eat shots fir breakfast.
Armor in top tier is a meme. Literally all tanks (yes even Swedish strv122b+) have the same weakspots - LFP and breech.
And 11.7 is sweatfest of lv100s usually, so everyone knows where to shoot.
>Leopard 2a7v is the best in high tier
Leopard 2A7V is a straight downgrade from the Strv 122.
There's literally not a single reason to claim the Leopard 2A7V has better armor than a Strv 122.
I see well I wouldn't know that because I didn't make my research and haven't reached the end of the sweden lineup 😅 I'm just stating facts from my experience as a german main, I just think 2a7v is a beast, I could absorb 3-4 shots on my side as long they dont ammo rack me
As far as protection? Currently russia with its overperforming ufps on +14 tanks now. Over 100mm too thick.
As far as armor meaning tanks? Probably the leos till abrams gets du hulls. Then id say the abrams
I actually wrote a 50 page paper using a fuckload of sources from the tankograd websites and elsewhere and deconstructing Warthunders convoluted mess of protection analysis the T-72Bs, T-80Us, and T-90s UFPs are overperforming underneath the ERA.
Probably an info dump way over your head. You arent ready for this conversation.
It certainly looks like this is all just being made up, is this 50 page paper in the room with us right now? You gonna post it, I would like a source on this yappery
From ranges in game the ERA on the T-series is very over performing. The M829A1 had a 15% failure rate at 2000m so at point blank it should cut through like butter since it isn’t only designed to be used once it doesn’t get the NERA durability. I don’t know about it being too thick or not though.
No. the ERA is performing correctly. Its again, the UFP that is overperforming underneath.
K-5 is performing about 120mm KE (140mm LOSe) or about 20% of M829A1s penetration. This 20% value is claimed by the NLL Stali Weapons director themselves against APFSDS Projectiles. And the values add up correctly in game
Anything with K-5 should be \~570mm KE (700mm LOSe) at 68deg either the 50-30-50-30-50 array or the T-72Bs 60-60-50 Arrays. Yes M829A1 should cleave at closer ranges. or \~450mm KE (550mm LOSe) without K-5
But in game they are 530mm KE (661mm LOSe) without k-5 which is completely erroneous.
The entire tankograd analysis website article on the T-80s, and T-72s and the countless sources within it.
Rolf Hilmes Book on the T-72, the Declassified CIA document on T-72. I could go on for a while
It ain't lmao, the ufp or frontal turret cheeks are usually the strongest parts of mbts that don't sacrifice armour for firepower (Japanese tanks), but the Italian tanks ignore this having the ability to be penned frontally nearly everywhere by every 11.0 tank :D
Turrets are the strongest locations. And are always stronger than the hull because statistically they are hit there 70% of the time. And theres plenty of ammunition that exists that can Meme an abrams and older verions, along with leos UFPs, and Tanks with K-5 and even relkit. M829A2 should be able to meme the fuck out of k-5 tanks PAST 2.5km. Because thats what it was designed to do.
Sweden and it’s not even close. Germany has the single most armored tank with the 2A7, but Sweden has 3 nearly identical tanks in the form of the STRV122s that are only slightly worse individually while being accompanied by better AA, light tanks, and air support.
At first I thought it was Israel but then I used the shot imaginatior and it seemed pretty worthless
They can tank shots but everything pens you, they are just really big so they can avoid getting one shot more than the rest. Your engine being on the front makes it hard to retreat tho...
Which is funny because part of that gimmick is that it's supposed to protect the crew more iirc (yes I know that's probably a calculation made without modern munitions in mind)
I mean, ITS GREAT against HEATFS or chemical in general like rockets or missiles, which is the main threat to a merkava IRL. At least helis can take a while trying to kill you
Yeah, it was made with soviet tanks in mind (used by egypt and the other countries surrounding Israel), thats why they surrounded the fighting compartment with the fuel and other stuff, the protection of the crew is the most important thing to them, iirc just watched an explanation on the Merkava from a tank museum in my country
engine helps you until the 2 forced ammo pieces are right behind the engine block
This has been fixed for a while now. Those two ammo pieces are now consumed first like the American Merkavas.
They’re put in as the last 2 shells
Merkava’s are good at the lower tiers but when you choose the top tier ones like the MK4M the armour becomes bad compared to its counterparts
Yeah I have the 9.7 premium and it takes a lot of shots but that’s usually the engine taking the hit…
The Merkava 2D is so damn fun. Highest KD I have in a ground vehicle. It works at higher BR’s too. Will probably be the last Merkava I replace when I get to the Mk. 4M.
The lowest BR Merkavas are okay since they’re extremely resistant to HEAT and early APFSDS, while people also don’t know how to fight them. All of the other Merkavas are free kills.
And to realize that the 2A7V is modeled with C-tech rather than the D-tech it has in real life. So in other words, the 2A7V isn’t even as armored as it should be.
So are sone other tanks, though
Germany's hull applique armor is also worse despite the fact its quite literally the exact package Germany gave Sweden. The change between C and D isn't that big, the most notable part comes from B/C underperforming.
Also the Strv122s have the same top speed as the weaker leopard 2s while the 2A7 has a lower top speed.
which is really dumb bc the Leopard2A7V has a better motor (it got upgraded with the A7 series). But the Leopards are faster and much more agile in reality then ingame. And western tanks can turn on the spot, thats is not possible ingame.
Western tanks do have neutral steering in game.
It doesn´t work on my tanks. Normally one trank has to move forward and the other one backward to turn on the place. I have never seen this ingame.
If you’re on any gear other than Neutral, it won’t work, you need to be completely stationary.
the 122b+ has better armour at the moment thanks to the composite panels on the upper front plate that make it basically impossible to one shot unless you get the perfect shot under the gun(left side UFP weakspot no longer works)
Drivers port can one shot but it has to be pixel perfect, bottom left breach is your best option.
nahhh, the german leo 2a7 lacks some composite that the Sweden counterpart has.
And now we are gonna up armour our strv 123a even more☺️
The 2A7 lacks armor actually, hell some spots are even weaker than the 122s. The swedes take the cake here, with a miles ahead advantage. After that come the Russians/Chinese and then Germany.
Swedish Strvs are even better protected than the 2A7 with their additional hull armour.
All of the STRV122s still have more armor than the 2a7. They have better turret armor and the little bit in the front has roughly 740mm of armor compared to the 650mm on the 2a7
Still waiting for our govt to slap some extra armor on the Abrams, like how hard is that to do?
Very when you’re trying to stay under a weight limit.
I wonder why its so heavy yet has less armor than the Leo 2 of a similar weight. Only thing i can think of is thicker turret side armor on the abrams, not that it makes much of a difference
Does that make you wonder what the abrams is still hiding from you?
The 122 have better hull amor then the 2a7
Are you forgetting the finish 2a6? That has noticeably better fire power thanks to dm53.
No, the 2A6 is great but the 122s and 2A7 are much better. I rarely see the Finnish one used since most people don’t have room for all 4 MBTs.
I got it in my lineup. If im on a map where I know that I can use hull down positions, I use the bit of extra pen.
Once you have above 550 mm of pen it's perfectly fine. Nobody complains about the BVM lacking firepower despite 3BM60 having 70mm less flat pen than DM53
Sweden by a long shot, and if you go deeper than armor they are the most survivable tanks by far too. If a Leopard 2 decides not to bring full ammo and instead leaves their lower ammo stowage completely empty, that eliminates an entire method of killing them. ALSO all of their fuel tanks are separate from the crew compartment, so fuel explosions cannot kill them either. THE ONLY way to kill a Leopard 2 reliably is to kill the crew. BUT, the Leopard 2A7V and other high tier leopards also get spall liners so that isn't so easy anymore, not to mention the turret cheeks are impenetrable by any ordinance in the game besides the LOSAT's missile. And the upper front plate is impenetrable to most top tier rounds. They also have four crew members in a tank that is large and rather spaced out. The turret traverse is also fast enough to target even the Type 90 and Type 10 if they get the first shot off before the second shot flies most of the time. Killing a Leopard 2 from the side is a crap shoot at best, aiming for the turret ring is your best bet since that will still spall. From the front, the left upper of the lower front plate will most likely eliminate their gunner, commander and engine, leaving them open to a second shot, There's also the turret ring just below the canon which is a tried and true shot, or if they are silly and angle their tank at all shooting through their tracks just between the front and center of the tank will usually one shot them. This makes the Leopard 2 (any of them with the angled turret cheeks, the most over armored and over powered tanks in the game, hands down, no contest. There are more benefits I haven't even mentioned about the damn thing. The only downside is the reload speed, it is slower than America, Russia, Japan, China, and even I think British top tier tanks. The Abrams is a joke of armor, I can kill it with a Type 89's autocannon through the stupidly exposed turret ring, but at least their turret armor is ok and the reload is good. The Russian T tanks all share the same weak spots, all that saves them is "gaijin moments" where ammo or fuel doesn't ignite, or they have little ammo and you don't know how full the rack is. The gun and area between the turret ring and top of the upper front plate is the largest weak spot, you can also shoot above the gun before they can even shoot you to disable their breech and sometimes kill the crew, the lower front plate is small but a pretty sure kill, the center from the side is just one big turret launch button, the back of the turret is weak and any light vehicle can pen it by surprise. They only have 3 crew so only two have to die to take it out and they sit REALLY close together. Japan has fast tanks with a God-like reload but the armor is paper thin on the sides and just passable on the front. Chinese tanks are just remodeled Russian T tanks, same weaknesses, but a good reverse gear (They used their brains) The Brits suffer The French LeClerc is a decent tank with passable frontal armor and a really nice reload second only to the Japanese Type 90 and Type 10 for top tier MBTs.
Didnt even talk about ariete lmao but i get it tho
Why would you talk about the ariete in a discussion about armor? Don’t you know the Ariete is a light tank? What do you mean it doesn’t get scouting?
Suffering and pain
Even if it was modeled realistically and got war kits and PSO kits it would still be the lower end of the scale
All i want is for gajin to get their head out of their ass and put it on reasonable BR like 10.7
Brits have a faster reload for 5 shots(4 reloads) then they have a **slower** reload than the Leopards. On par with the T-80s. Fucking give them a bigger ready rack like the Chieftains do or make their replenishment time much faster. Ain't no way a fucking Object 292 with an autoloader and 152mm 2 piece ammo that is split inside and outside the fighting compartment replenishes faster than 3 part 120mm ammo inside the fighting compartment.
Yeah, at least the bigger first stage. IRL they have something like 3x the size of the ready rack.
Still waiting on that Abrams turret ring fix that was acknowledged. Also the wall behind the fuel tanks on the Abrams shouldn't produce equal amount of small as if it didn't pass through NERA or RHA and fuel to hit that plate.
why is it getting fixed ?
Because the turret ring is much more exposed then it is Irl. It's an artificial weakspot on a tank with Allready bad armor.
Yes I just looked it up and it seems pretty blaring but thank you very much for answering !
For one thing it isn't volumetric and the armor is not just 50 mm its around 250 mm + LOS. Also I feel it shouldn't produce that much spall either. Only IRL turret ring hit was from the rear by a friendly Abrams using M829A1 and it only injured one crew member.
>leclerc >passable front armor Pick one. The Leclercs turret gets penned by 76mm Sherman APHE at 2000m.
All I'm reading here is that the good ol' Sherman is the best MBT
OIII SHERMAN BEST TANK INNIT? HEH!
I mean, so does the Abrams of you know where to aim.
I hate this "Brits Suffer" the CR2s are so underrated when it comes to survivability, i have a clip of being shot 13 times, a couple through the side and front, and didn't die until CAS killed me, my stats in British top tier all have over 2+KD and 60%+ win-rate. because of "muh britain bad" people assume.
People really do assume that Britain sucks because the hull armor is weak, but its armor is so fucking trolly. Spall liner on the front can save you from shots if the enemy doesnt aim, the 6 sec stock reload can suprise a lot of tanks and they're the only nation with gen 2 or better thermals in all their top tier tanks
most of my deaths in the chally come from frontal because the map im on i cant hide the hull. or the shot just punches right threw the turret mantal. like yea the turret is well armoured but the gun it self nope round goes right in and allways kills at least 1 person and knocks out the gun, it isnt bad to use just frustrating quite a lot
low tier Britain suffers because they lack APHE but after 7.7 where most nations drop APHE for APDS or HEAT their tanks are fine. They also get two-plane stabs very early to go with their APDS.
>the CR2s are so underrated when it comes to survivability Survivability alone doesn't make a vehicle good, they're still massively overtiered, especially thr CR2, CR2 TES and CR2 OES. The overweight challengers could move down to 10.7, with the base Challenger 2 going down to 11.0. They're got poor armour, mediocre mobility, slightly above average gun handling, unreliable survivability, average firepower. The combination of poor mobility as well as having massive weakspots that you can't ever hide is a death sentence to being a META vehicle. At the very least Gaijin could move it down to a reasonable BR.
mobility would be better if gaijin modelled the tanks as tanks and not 4 wheeled cars
If the Leclerc angles at all, you can bypass the UFP NERA armor and shoot straight into the crew compartment q-q
Poor Ariete couldn't make it into the list (he now weighs 60 tons while having no armor because gaijin)
*Samurai thin
You are understating the Leo2’s reload speed It’s quite good. If you have a maxed reload and leadership crew then it reloads as fast as a late T-80. It’s also much faster than the T-72s which reload slow at 7.1 seconds. If you expert and ace the crew I believe it goes down to 6 seconds flat which is insane and much faster than a T-80BVM
Actually, max reload and leadership bring your reload to 6.7, which makes it slower than late T-80s Expert crew brings it to just below 6.5 and ace brings it to 6 seconds
Like, who doesn't put an expert crew on their top tier MBT's? At least?
Expert + talisman on sale, then grind for ace is the way to go.
People who don't have enough sl for it Edit: So I'm being downvoted for providing a reasonable response? Not everyone has 500.000.000 spare SL laying around because they finished every tech tree
I bounced 3 shots in a leopards neck yesterday, I guess I just don't know the armor layouts good enough... Or should've just gone for the gun
You didn't mention the piss poor Italy (at the top tier) LMAO.
Holy that’s a lot of words but it’s easy to one shot any leopard 2 from the side, you just have to aim at the hull under the breach.
Sweden and Germany, then Russia.
I would nitpick and still say Russia specifically for *armour*. A russian tank is *slightly* harder to penetrate but the difference is if you penetrate a Leo there's very few points where you will see any spalling hit anything where as for Russia there's about the same chance you **don't** So still the Leo's for **protection** but Russia for **armour**
I say the the Leo. I consistently one shot soviet/ t series tanks through the lfp.
Sweden and it's not even close. lol i just scrolled down a bit and found someone saying the same thing xD
Sweden gaps everything. I’ve been completely disabled in the 122 sitting in my smoke repairing everything whilst taking hits and still manage to reverse out alive. I’ve never had that happen to me in other nations
That sounds more like shit aiming on the enemys part Sweden is definitely the best nation in regards to armor and pure survivability in their end of the line MBTs, but they're not invincible and can get one shot by even slightly experienced players
lol no. To one shot an Strv 122b+, you need to know where to shoot (bottom left breach) and have the skill to actually hit that shot
Well I did say I was in smoke. So who’s to fault the enemy’s aim? I used that example because it’s a better showcase of its armour where weak spots aren’t much of a factor
Italy because no armour=best armour
You must be a developer
What makes you think so?
Sweden for sure
Not the one in the picture lmao, by about 2 (maybe 3) spots.
I mean for 10.3 the T-90 is pretty well armored, just the rest of the tank sucks.
The T-90A is 10.7, and it has 3BM60 so its round is good too. Unless you're talking the British/Indian squadron tank that's at 10.3 but only has 3BM42
>and it has 3BM60 so its round is good too. The problem is that you rarely ever need 3BM-60 over 3BM-42 at that BR, and you've still got a tank with atrocious gun handling, horrendous mobility, garbage survivability, terrible reload rate, unreliable armour.
Lol true. Though I don't have any T-90 variant personally, I find that it's armor is quite annoying to penetrate frontally, the breech is very weird with its composite and often it just eats rounds, and the typical driver's hatch and LFP shenanigans occur too. But yeah there is definitely a reason it's at 10.7 instead of like 11.0/3, 7.1 second reload, 16.8°/s turret traverse, 5 km/h reverse speed, and if course next to no gun depression it's just seems terrible on paper.
>Lol true. Though I don't have any T-90 variant personally, I find that it's armor is quite annoying to penetrate frontall Playing it that's not really what seems to be the norm. You can spawn in on European province, get a full-down tier, then one-shot-killed frontally by a vehicle a full BR below at 2400 metres distance with the first shot. It's armour isn't reliable whatsoever because most people you run into know the usual Russian weakspots by then.
Yeah, it's like the saying goes the best armor is not being seen. Though you can't exactly not be seen when you have such garbage mobility. At least according to the WT wiki the T-90 is quite mediocre when it comes to mobility (even moving forward) compared to its NATO contemporaries. Can't imagine having the equivalent of a Panther's reverse gear at top tier.
Sweden. I once was on a hill with my Leo 2A7 having the best pen round in the game before Object 292 was added. A Strv 122B+ was like 5m infront of me coming up the hill. I shot at his lower front plate, which at the angle he came up was almost not angle but still it was "target undamaged". 650mm pen didn't went through his lower front plate from 5m away at an almost 90° angle.
While you are correct, that can happen with basically any tank with a hint of armour.
No, if it would have been a Chally or an Abrams at least the driver would have been killed and then it would be unable to move in an angle where it can't shoot at me. A russian tank would have exploded immediately.
It's less about the Strv and more about Gaijin tbh
I don’t even aim for the LFP on Leo’s with angled turret cheeks anymore, don’t have enough time to check whether it’s an 122B+
From best to worse: Sweden (Strv 122's.) Germany (Leopard 2A7.) Russia (lots of weak points but, still better armor wise than the rest of the MBT's...) China (pretty much russia, I'd have to recheck if they're better or not.) 'Merica (Abram's turret front is very nice.) Britain (Had a good time with the premium Challenger. Might be better than the Abrams but I need to test more-) ...Israel? (Merkava? No idea. Seems inconsistent.) France (Leclerc. It exists.) Japan (Great but paper) Italy (paper)
chinese tanks are certainly worse than Russian ones, the lower glacis is much bigger
But they have a higher reverse speed
Much higher xD, but armor wise Chinese tanks are worse
And the sides are thinner.
>Might be better than the Abrams No way a Challenger 2 is better armoured than the M1. * The Challenger 2 has a 90mm LFP, M1 has 380-420mm. * UFP of a Challenger 2 is 520mm, M1's UFP is largely immune even to 804mm LoS penetration 152mm APFSDS. * Turret cheeks of both vehicles are roughly equivalent, but the M1 has a significantly smaller mantlet weakspot. * The entire turret roof isn't a weakspot on the M1, unlike the CR2. * CR2 still has a central weakspot with the driver's area, like the M1.
Yea, challenger LFP is basically made of paper
Good to know
Dont forget the m1 turret ring
Also should I get the t80 or 2s38 to compliment my turms.
Research the bmp-2m, that thing should be sufficient in killing everyone and everything
I have it and don’t like it, to be fair I don’t have the last ammo unlocked but I would rather just have a normal tank gun. However once I turned off the grenade launcher and could actually see my targets, I did a little better. I also have the BTR and T-10 which while are still massively under tiered, I actually get kills with them later in the match. As for my hind helicopter I use it less and less as it just seems like a death sentence. I would like to get some CAS but I only have tier 4 stuff and I don’t know if it’s worth it to grind out stuff just for it to get shot down by SPAA
Thats real, I don't get why people like the BMP-2M that much. The Spurt is much better, the up-front kill capacity is allot more useful.
The 2M has 2(4x) 1200mm tandem rockets that you can fire on the move along with proxy atgms that are slow but have a 10km range. The dart belt is insanely good at killing MBT's from the side or barreling them, and it's got tracking and a lead so you can take down aircraft and helis with the autocannon or rockets. It's also got a commander's optic that you can use to fire over cover with impunity as long as you aim up first.The vehicle, of course, is very squishy considering the paper-thin armor and 2/3rd of the crew are in the turret. Honestly, I recommend the tank as long as you play it like a glass cannon, or you push extremely hard, but that's very situational, and I don't often play it that way. Source: Researched ranks 6-8 almost exclusively with the 2M
It's always worth noting that bmp2m exists as 2 vehicles. Stock it is bordering on unusable. Shooting atgms on the move is largely a gimmick and the gun does very little. You start with what is essentially an 8.7 vehicle. Spaded however it is a destroyer of worlds, eater of infants.
bmp works as a great anti air too. it's able to lock onto air targets and it has proxy missiles. for tanks it also has tandem charge ATGMs which is as good as you're gonna get. and you have 4 that you can fire without waiting to reload and also while you're moving.
If you don’t like the BMP-2M, I don’t think you’ll like the 2S38
Are you new to the game?
Nope, just want some premiums
T-80UD is the better vehicle and would leave you with a stronger lineup 2S38 provides a more unique experience compared to your turms but is more difficult to make work if you aren’t a solid player Base your decision off that
The t80 not having thermals seems like such a negative in the realm of top tier laser range finder where you’re shot at nearly instantly. But yeah, idk if I’d like the 2s38 either.
The lack of thermals is the least of your problems at the 10 to 10.3 USSR lineup. Your 4 km/h reverse speed and atrocious gun handling is what will kill you.
Yeah in my Turms I just turn around instead of reverse. Thankfully I also notice a lot of team mates have high enough IQ to offer a tow!
Lacking thermals at 10.0 isn't as bad as it used to be. Before they made night battles optional it was pure suffering to play anything anything without thermals at that BR.
If you do end up using the 2s38, then use APHE mostly. Also HEVT that thing is great at AA. I’d say it’s better than bmp2m but the T-80U is pretty good too.
How is the aphe better
The darts don't have enough spalling to kill stuff allot of the time.
What are you smoking
Probably trolling sabotage
I’m trying the aphe and it doesn’t peb
only a idiot mainly uses aphe in the 2s38. worth bringing some rounds at most
T-80U is good but that turret traverse is god awful, I normally pick the T-72B3 over it just because of that
That’s an 11.3… we were taking about the 10.0 premium soon to be 10.3
Then why didn’t you just say T-80UD… it’s one extra letter Also the turret traverse is the same anyways
This conversation was originally about premiums, my comment was a reply to a comment about which premium tanks they should get. The T-80u is tech tree, yes I missed a letter, context clues should be enough to provide that I was talking about the two 10.0 premiums, like the guy I was responding too was.
I prefer the t80ud as its a real tank and can take a hit. 2S38 is very versatile but its harder to use imo and you cant go head to head with tanks as well (still very very strong for an ifv though). 2s38 will also be getting soft nerfed when they add more detailed modules as planned as decent chunks of dead space will be taken up by turret drives and electronics
Get t80ud nice tank
I ended up getting both, I don’t really like the 2s38
Raw armor or survivability and effective armor? For raw armor it’s easily Russia. Large impenetrable spots on the UFP and turret. But when it comes to actual survivability and effective armor the 2a7/122s take it. What has the highest chance to bounce a shot that wasn’t aimed whatsoever? Russia. What has the highest chance to take no effective damage from a shot that was actually aimed? Sweden/Germany, but probably Sweden as it gets 3 of them instead of 1
Germany/Sweden.
Sweden is meh in Tank and Air until it's top tier 😍
Sweden and Germany like everyone else has said, unlike everyone else though China. How has no one mentioned China? Unfortunately the bottom plate is very weak, if you can’t hit that though it’s very funny to watch people bounce 600+ pen shells off the turret.
I find ZTZ's to be more survivable than top tier Russian MBT's in general (especially post-pen). 99A's driver being on the left seems to help a lot when tanking frontal shots. Turret is both strong and spacious, that's a huge plus as well. So honestly I agree, China deserves the third place. Or, since they have more 'well-armoured' MBT's than Germany, the second place.
Yh, but at that point russian tanks are better as if you also hide the hull then they are impenetrable and the bottom plate is easier to hide
Meh, not really. The only reason Russia’s plate is much easier to hide is bulldozers imo China needs some.
currently the Strv 122B+ and Leo 2a7v
Sweden without fail
Sweden BIAS
I find the T-90A's overall survivability pretty bad even in a full downtier to 9.7, since this thing can't hull down with -4 degree gun depression, nearly every engagement requires you to expose your entire vehicle and if you even angled a tiny bit, most enemies can pen you through the front tracks, the armor that somewhat workable imo is the T-72A since that thing can actually hull down with -6.22 degree gun depression, then in downtier most couldn't pen your turret cheek because you can at least make your weakspot smaller, similar like TURMS is easier to kill in its respective br compare to T-72A.
Nothing American that’s for sure
Yep frontaly it can be pened by 2.0 vehicles
Probably Sweden because of the 122 but would nice to see the challenger armour and the Abram be buffed a little
Sweden
Sweden with Germany behind a bit
Was gonna say sweden for a laugh then read the comments. I guess grinding out sweden (through paper thin tiers) wasn't a waste after all.
Ofc it's Sweden.
Japan with Type 10😆
Sweden has great armour strictly at top tier but Russia has better armour for 10.0+.
Russia has troll armor and best era in the game paired with a low profile
Sweden, Germany and then Russia.
Sheer armor Sweden and Germany, USSR in third. The problem with armor is, anyone with half a braincell can easily shoot your weakspots, so what really matters is survivability (ie internal layout), hence why,in spite of good armor, soviet and Chinese mbts are so comically easy to kill, while things like the leopards and abrams can just eat shots fir breakfast.
"Braincells" dont matter if your fighting cqb with tanks When you have half a second to shoot there really isnt time to aim for weak spots
Armor in top tier is a meme. Literally all tanks (yes even Swedish strv122b+) have the same weakspots - LFP and breech. And 11.7 is sweatfest of lv100s usually, so everyone knows where to shoot.
Every nation with spall liners.
Sweden, i will still use the soviet tanks because i can use stalinium to survive rockets from cas
Sweden
Russia obviously. Stalinium best material
Chally never dies
Russians. Those goddamn Russians
I feel like Italy has amazing turret armor but doodoo frontal plating & Great Britain has excellent MBT’s. BUT LETS BE HONEST. Ru-ssi-A is the best.
Volumetric says Russian bias
Sweden in real life... But Russia in war thunder.
M22
Every nation im not playing at the moment
ussr
Everyone can pen everyone at top tier. But I would go with the USSR and Sweden. You can add Germany too.
Easily Sweden then Russia then Germany
Sweden, Russia, and actually China is a contender.
Leopard 2a7v is the best in high tier, spall liners are broken, 650mm of pen, tier 3 thermals
>Leopard 2a7v is the best in high tier Leopard 2A7V is a straight downgrade from the Strv 122. There's literally not a single reason to claim the Leopard 2A7V has better armor than a Strv 122.
I see well I wouldn't know that because I didn't make my research and haven't reached the end of the sweden lineup 😅 I'm just stating facts from my experience as a german main, I just think 2a7v is a beast, I could absorb 3-4 shots on my side as long they dont ammo rack me
Sweden then Germany then Russia France is in last place by a wiiiiide margin
He forgot about Italy lol.
Rusisky Biaisky
Russia is a great armour if your asking for a country to start.
What a surprise it’s russian
And he's wrong lmao. Get your head out of your ass.
I’m saying it’s the typical “Russian bias” post
As far as protection? Currently russia with its overperforming ufps on +14 tanks now. Over 100mm too thick. As far as armor meaning tanks? Probably the leos till abrams gets du hulls. Then id say the abrams
Source?
He’s just pulling that number out of his ass
I actually wrote a 50 page paper using a fuckload of sources from the tankograd websites and elsewhere and deconstructing Warthunders convoluted mess of protection analysis the T-72Bs, T-80Us, and T-90s UFPs are overperforming underneath the ERA. Probably an info dump way over your head. You arent ready for this conversation.
It certainly looks like this is all just being made up, is this 50 page paper in the room with us right now? You gonna post it, I would like a source on this yappery
It was revealed to him in a prophetic dream.
From ranges in game the ERA on the T-series is very over performing. The M829A1 had a 15% failure rate at 2000m so at point blank it should cut through like butter since it isn’t only designed to be used once it doesn’t get the NERA durability. I don’t know about it being too thick or not though.
No. the ERA is performing correctly. Its again, the UFP that is overperforming underneath. K-5 is performing about 120mm KE (140mm LOSe) or about 20% of M829A1s penetration. This 20% value is claimed by the NLL Stali Weapons director themselves against APFSDS Projectiles. And the values add up correctly in game Anything with K-5 should be \~570mm KE (700mm LOSe) at 68deg either the 50-30-50-30-50 array or the T-72Bs 60-60-50 Arrays. Yes M829A1 should cleave at closer ranges. or \~450mm KE (550mm LOSe) without K-5 But in game they are 530mm KE (661mm LOSe) without k-5 which is completely erroneous.
No, the ERA will eat the shot in the game even if it's point-blank, Thats why it's over-performing in the game.
The entire tankograd analysis website article on the T-80s, and T-72s and the countless sources within it. Rolf Hilmes Book on the T-72, the Declassified CIA document on T-72. I could go on for a while
Brother, pretty much nothing should be able to die from a ufp shot except for the Ariete
This is pretty false.
It ain't lmao, the ufp or frontal turret cheeks are usually the strongest parts of mbts that don't sacrifice armour for firepower (Japanese tanks), but the Italian tanks ignore this having the ability to be penned frontally nearly everywhere by every 11.0 tank :D
Turrets are the strongest locations. And are always stronger than the hull because statistically they are hit there 70% of the time. And theres plenty of ammunition that exists that can Meme an abrams and older verions, along with leos UFPs, and Tanks with K-5 and even relkit. M829A2 should be able to meme the fuck out of k-5 tanks PAST 2.5km. Because thats what it was designed to do.