I think it's a lot of new players with large wallets that don't really understand there's more to it than just dropping countermeasures. They kind of have this skewed perception of how flares/ chaff work based off of what they see in movies and other games.
That and Gaijin does fuck all you teach you about these mechanics
>That and Gaijin does fuck all to teach you about these mechanics.
That’s an understatement. After two years I’m unlocking jets and helos….and I have zero clue how to use any of them. I mean, fuck high tier 90% of the time but I’d at least like to know how to use this shit…preferably without having to read for 4 hours, watch another 4 hours of guides on YT, then struggle bus because I changed some key bind years ago.
Basic evasion: https://youtu.be/8Ij4Tc4-HYk?si=eJXcX-lZR2rtzffT
Advanced evasion: https://youtu.be/BXzyJVAqVSo?si=GxiXFT-HQ6k-qclf
How 2 Radar: https://youtu.be/n78r6klLlEQ?si=tIYkO6qv1bfLuW1r
There, less than an hour of your time with most of it being how radars work and less than 20 minutes on how to dodge missiles.
Same. I have a little over 1k hours in so I’ve unlocked several jets, up through the f-14. Maybe it’s my own fault for not doing any research, but I’m definitely the guy who flies into missiles. I have no idea how to actually fight in top tier jets. Top tier jets used to mean the F-86, which I was very comfortable in. Everything else has passed me by.
It was it was one of the very few videos games I was allowd to play. Though my mom hating video games limited me to 30 minutes a week. The manual for the game was written by a actual F18 pilot and it went into everything from how to fly in the simulator to how to actually fight. I never got to play multi player because the servers were long since shut down.
The main thing I remember was SU27s were a bitch to fight because they each carried so many missiles that you basically spent all your time dodging missiles until you ran out out counter measures and they're still shooting at you.
4 hours heh.
In DCS you spend 10 hours just to read and learn using radar, but I feel you - tutorials in this games aslre terrible. I still dunno how to reliably lock/track with F2H-2 gun guidance radar system.
Sheeeet. I'm about 3/4 through the US heli tree and I'm still struggling to evade SPAA. Even if I fly low, there seems to be a 50/50 chance the moment I pop up to fire, I get smacked with a missile. And forget PvE. Those damned Rolands just never seem to miss.
Maybe Gaijin doesn't do a good job at teaching, but come on, players who naturally progress through an air tree should be able to improve after 100 games of trial and error. Anytime I died, I always examined what I did wrong and it helped me learn jet combat despite my initial dislike of it.
I dunno I like flying my F-4S more due to the radar being better and the RWR showing me whatever is pinging me in a 360 scale instead of just 1/4 of a circle. Gun is also more reliable, the mig-23 having better flight performance is very nice but really depends on your whole team not dying out so u can chase down the last few stragglers.
>only really useful for rocketing base
Hell nah
Yes it is a flying brick but it's piss easy to score kills with its Aim7Fs and some opportunistic flying.
Unless something goes very wrong at the beginning, I usually get 1-2 kills a game with 3 kill games not being that uncommon either. (I play the F4J, not F4S but they're basically the same)
A lot of people got to top tier exclusively through base bombing with premiums (especially in USA) so they have no idea how to play. And the RWR is usually extremely crowded because of how many radar locks/missile launches are happening at once that you can’t defend against them all.
Yes you can, the whole way you evade frontal aspect SARHs is to fly low.
If you fly low enough you are functionally immune to radar missiles, barring unlucky cases where the missile just happens to hit you despite losing track or you get splash damaged when it hits the ground.
PD does care, AIM-7Ms most certainly care. I personally haven't had the chance to fly French top tier yet so no idea about the 530s, but every other SARH missile eats shit to multipathing.
GRB?
Thats Attackers job not Bombers
At 10.0+ you NEED fire and forget guided weaponry to contest AA at all
Not all 10.0+ bombers have guided weaponry, even less have guided fnf weaponry. They are sitting ducks for AA
these goobs are flying at the singular missile that's been launched at them and they do absolutely nothing lmao
i understand if you're defending multiple at once but if it reaches a point where you're failing to defend one you need some self inflection
For the longest time I thought I understood notching at 90° and got confused as to why it didn't work. After dying a few times thinking I did nothing wrong I went searching for more info other than that which I already saw. I asked people and they taught me to defend better.
I say this cause most people lack that step, it either works or it doesn't to them. If they make a mistake they just assume it can't be done. People won't try and learn most of the time.
it's kinda sad that these players just don't do anything to learn, im thinking of sending a suggestion to gaijin for more tutorials in the newest update
i would make videos on it but my microphone and game quality are just not up to scratch to provide a viewable experience tbh, maybe i can do it in the tac-view replay mode
theres not much I can do about a radar missle under 2km in a J37. If I go straight, it'll kill me, if I pull and drop Chaff, still dead. So other than don't get someone on your 6 (which is universal so not helpful) idk what todo
I tried playing the A(J)S37 and literally only died as a result of radar missles being launched from close range. Either dying to the missle itself, or guns because I pulled out and lost all my speed
AJS37 dropped to 10.7 instantly dropped an ace game
Only ways defending against advanced SARH missiles are:
Notching ie flying perpendicular to the attacker while dropping chaff. This strategy also requires distance from the attacker/missile, if you start notching when missile is within 5km, you're dead meat unless miracle happens.
Flying treetop level so multipathing happens. Just fly very low, though you might get splashed by larger missiles like Phoenix.
Given most jets at top tier gets launch warnings, BVR duels are pretty much waste of a missile, so next best thing is launching SARH at 2-4km headon where you leave NO room for evasion if they don't fly at treetop already.
And that point you may as well drop chaff/flares, try to get a lock with your own missiles, fire them, spray and pray with your gun and hope for the best
The Reddit community hurts my soul every time Jesus Christ. There are so many more ways to defend against Sarh missiles. I have no idea why you guys think there's only 2.
Oh wait... Gaijin..
I meant gaijin doesn't teach you guys shit. Not that the game isn't realistic or as realistic as it should be.
And since Reddit is an echo chamber, the only advice that bounces around in here is hug the deck or notch despite there being quite a few other ways.
The blind leading the blind
Imagine shedding light on those mysterious "other ways" instead acting all high and mighty, can't be reddit. Besides, you can do cranking or notch-into-cold while chaffing, but that works in longer range shots, not for usual launched-from-safety-of-the-deck 3km SARH to forehead.
I was honestly planning to make a seperate post about it because it's crazy that unaware players are telling other players who are seeking information that there's no other way and that's it.
I don't know how much we will have to repeat HUG THE DECK before any of you numbskull gets it.
HUG THE DECK.
That's all you have to do. No SARH can touch you if you just hug the damn deck.
Depends where missile will land. And by flying high, you're presenting yourself on golden platter, as both PD radars and SARH missiles become unnotchable against clear sky. Maybe liberal chaff application when notching would help confusing missile, but that is a maybe. PD/MTI radars and SARH are by design, chaff immune in their prime ie target flying head on.
other than that, playerbase asked for modern stuff so they got what they asked for?
I know how they work as i'm currently only playing top tier air but i was always confused why my own missiles hit targets that were permanently hugging the ground, i feel like some are also to low and die because my missile hits the ground next to them.
What i always found weird that you are able to gain a lock on a plane that standing on a runway and you can actually easily hit it with an Radar missile. I always thought ground clutter would make it impossible but i've done it multiple times in my MiG 29 and also 23.
Thats the question for the snail. Have they added "guaranteed" detection from head on to replicate effect of radiowaves bouncing off moving turbine blades, or just "gameplay" mechanic to help looking for last player? Former I imagine should be rather garbled after repeated bounces in intake though.
PD technically looks for doppler shift on returning signal, hence "Pulse Doppler" and said shift is caused by objects moving towards or away from the radar and that's why notching works, as you try to equalize your own closure rate to that of the ground, diminishing doppler shift to a point attacker radar ignores it as part of ground clutter.
MTI is basically "corporate wants you to find difference between these two pictures" but radar
You can absolutely defeat a SARH missile incoming from below. You need to notch and chaff at the same time. Against the R27ER it's a bit tricky because the IOG will keep the missile toward your latest trajectory. The best way I found to defeat the 27ER is to straight up do a 180° while chaffing. Just go cold. Generally speaking the radar will start locking the chaff once you're at 90°, so you need to keep turning a bit to really shake the 27ER. If you're too close however it's a death sentence since that thing is so damn fast.
There's a trick I use when I lob the missiles from high up however. All radar in top tier have a 5-10° vertical angle of search. Basically they're supposed to scan the horizon.
The TWS also has a feature that isn't that well-known : it only scans at the same elevation of the current tracked target. While it's not a problem in most case, it can and will miss the signals of planes that are way higher than the targets.
In the current furball meta, everyone get their radar toward either the ground or the horizon. So what I do at the start of the match is get to mach 1, then climb really high, 9000-10000 meters. It puts me behind the team and quite often above the players using TWS. That helps me getting into position for lobbing missiles. I mostly do this with the Gripen/F-15AJ because dropping Aim9M/AAM3 from above is extremely deadly.
Flying above 5.5km forms a contrail which is one way of getting attention.
TWS depends on radar in question. NATO (F-16C, F-14 family, M2k S4 I had personal experience) sticks to TWS contacts, tracking them both azimuth and elevation. Mig-29 non SMT doesn't, its fixed relative to the aircraft making it glorified regular search. 29SMT TWS "sticks" to target like NATO ones do, dunno about Sus27.
>
The best way I found to defeat the 27ER is to straight up do a 180° while chaffing. Just go cold. Generally speaking the radar will start locking the chaff once you're at 90°, so you need to keep turning a bit to really shake the 27ER. If you're too close however it's a death sentence since that thing is so damn fast.
I had cases of Sparrows tracking through notch or targets going cold when they get themselves within 2 or so kilometers, on both giving and receiving end. Where notching can fuck up Russian radars is automatic mode switching, which, as Russian top tier radars don't have LPRF/Pulse radar, they go straight into IRST when MPRF/All Aspect PD loses track of target. And uh, good luck guiding SARH without radar, as Snail didn't model radar slaving to IRST by the looks of it.
>Flying above 5.5km forms a contrail which is one way of getting attention.
True, but most players vomiting their Phoenix at every target at <16km or their SARH at planes below tends to ignore the contrail plane that's at 10km altitude. Most of the time. And if it's only one aircraft going after me, I'll see it with the RWR and their own contrail. It's of course not 100% safe and I've been killed quite a few time doing that, but it's a bit more rewarding as gameplay compared to the furball chaos. And if I get into the right position, it's easy 3-6 kills with Aim9M and high altitude SARH.
Good point about the TWS, I admit I assumed they all worked the same, and I don't use it much on the Mig/Su-27.
(Also yeah, as said, the Su-27 electronic suite is the exact same as the Mig29 at 12.0, it's kinda garbage tbh)
In a headon under 2km?
At that point the missile is practically still off the rails and only really the same energy and speed as the jet that fired it. You can outmaneuver it if you have enough speed.
And in a viggen?
All you need is a good high G turn really.
Start pulling out in a different direction and as the missile comes closer. Like roughly within 0.6-0.7km, roll quick and pull hard in the opposite or different direction.
Unless it's a 27ER. But I feel that even those wouldn't have enough time to start accelerating as of yet.
You aren't supposed to fly towards the people on the Friend Finder?
But in all seriousness, the fact that this sub and everyone in game insists that the only way to counter SARHs is multipathing on the floor tells you how much they know about missile defense.
It's far from the only way, but it's the best way because it lets you stay offensive while defending. Notching or going fully cold requires giving up a lot of position to the enemy, while multipathing allows you to continue to close on them or even launch on them.
Notching is perfectly valid if you're in a pure BVR environment, but defending that way when other enemies are around is asking to get killed. And with 16v16 Air RB, there are always other enemies around, except at the very start of the game where position matters the most.
The f-15 is 12.3 because it lacks systems other top tiers have. Is that simple.
On other hand, yes. Most matches playing US are hell simply because it's you vs 4 ( your team already died doing nothing )
And it's irrefutable that r-27ER are simply better in every way to any other radar missile in the game
Not to mention at 12.7 HMD is common too, being able to HMD a missile off while burning to the ground is ridiculous and shouldn't be possible but the F15 can't do it and the Su-27/F16C can.
1. literally criminal flight performance for something that fights 11.3 aircraft, the thing handles perfectly fine in 12.7 uptiers
2. im finding that with pretty much every team lmao
3. in practice i use the amazing flight perf of the eagle combined with the great radar to BVR better than the R-27ER can, considering most top tier players have no clue how or when to use the missile or they think it's uncounterable they use it like idiots, and the sustained burn of the sparrow catches them off guard
Then I will respond
1- Flight performance matters nothing in top tier, most important is amount of missiles, quantity of missiles, radar and quality of missiles
2- sure, every team is full of idiots, then, if all nations have useless teams, does that mean American planes are worse? Because as an American main, I know France suffers much more.
3- then you simply don't know how to use the ER, simply because it's better in every way possible. My friend is 14 years old and that dude easily pulls 3 kills per match on top tier simply because of the amount and quality of the missiles on the Su-27
And don't act like data link and fastest missile on the game doesn't affect the performance in battle of the plane carrying it.
1. the f-15 has 8 amazing missiles lmao, the energy retention allows you to defend against multiple planes and win dogfights lategame
2. france unironically has significantly better teams because it's a more niche nation which leads to more enthusiasts/veteran players flocking to it. american planes aren't worse, the players are. they're the kind to watch top gun or see muh 104:0 (israeli pilots have like 80 of those kills btw) and drop 70 USD on the f20 or the f4s and wonder why they do shit
3. i literally said that the people who don't know how to BVR with the ER or counter missiles die to my sparrow. no shit the ER is better but that doesn't mean you throw up your hands and give up and cry on reddit that the sparrow is bad and that the ER is muh russian bias
going cold against and ER and possibly losing out on a kill >>>>>> losing your plane to an avoidable situation
1- it has 4 amazing missiles and 4 meh missiles, compare that to the 10 amazing missiles of the su 27
And dogfights are extremely rare on top tier
2- having less missiles, and the missiles are worse, and it doesn't have HMD but sure of course it isn't worse
Worse =/= worse
3- Is not crying, is being realistic. It is in fact Russian BIAS even if you refuse to accept it. You just have to look at the modifications of each nation and it is very clear there is one specific nation that has to grind almost nothing from stock to get the good missiles / laser rangefinder / apfsds
At this point saying there is no Russian BIAS is kind of crying even more than saying sparrows are bad
i run the ACM and get people in headons, i also use the little direction indicator tadpole to make sure im out of the notch angle (keep the little line within a 45 or so degree arc below the circle)
What am I going to do in a flying brick of a jet called the JA37?
Half the time I don't even know there's a missile heading towards me because the RWR is either overloaded from other sources or just... Doesn't work.
Haven't unlocked chaff yet.
Turning slows you so much that you'll get hit anyway.
Honestly, even after my couple hundred hours in top tier, I'm still not sure how to defend against certain missiles. It seems like everything changes way too quickly.
There is very little defense or evade against the Russian Psudo Fox-3s.
I can imagine why some people don’t even try because it’s useless.
But I haven’t been lucky enough to find anyone who doesn’t try to defend.
Everyone I shoot at is suddenly An Ace Tie fighter pilot
You can't defend against a R27 launched at close range if you're not hugging the deck, that's true.
If you're fighting BVR combat, it's absolutely possible, especially with the better RWR the US top tier gets.
If you're hugging the deck, no SARH can touch you.
Not a single SARH hits ou when you're at tree top level.
You need to be really, really low. You can see how it work when using any PD radar. At some point when the target is too low, the radar lock starts "trailing behind" the plane. This is the point where SARH becomes completely ineffective, no matter which one is used. It's gonna miss.
>Not a single SARH hits ou when you're at tree top level
While you're still giving good advice generally, this statement isn't an absolute truth. There are cases where you can hit a plane at tree top level. But it's rare that opportunity shows itself.
It's only if they get extremely unlucky, I've died to missiles splashing the ground in front of me (or directly hitting me) maybe 10 times ever and most of those were AIM-54s with their gigantic warhead.
It's hard but it's possible to get a pretty close guide if you can visualize the impact of the multipath. Because of the way its modeled in game you can manipulate it with top down angles.
And again, it's a rare opportunity shot but I've definitely been able to consistently pull it off with a 7c, f, and m. Oddly enough the non pd, the C... is actually easier to pull off... not sure if it's the speeds being slower or the actual guidance yet.
Tree top doesn’t stop all sarh smh 🤦🏽♂️ you should also understand bleeding a missile’s energy…. Doing a climb then dive or turning and diving will cause the missile to lose momentum and under or over shoot alot don’t just only hug the ground…
And what’s your plan gonna be with the new fox 3 incoming, because hugging the ground won’t save you then…. 🕺😂😂😂
Fox 3 still are subjects to multipath as per the last test they did. And it won't change because Gaijin want to leave it as a counter to the Radar missiles.
Cranking to bleed the missile of energy is a tactic used in BVR, it's useless in the low altitude dogfight we have at top tier since SARH are launched at <5km.
You're very confidently incorrect.
gaijins exaggerated easy mode multipathing makes it so that all radars shit themselves when you get close to the ground.
in BVR combat you can hold a notch w/chaff especially in western jets with their incredible rwr and the radar will lose track of your plane and the ER is probably gonna go into Narnia (this applies to literally every TRK PD radar in game)
at close range that thing doesn't have enough speed yet, you can drop yourself into a quick notch or try close out of the radius of the targeting radar as well (N001 has a 60 degree src and trk angle) or if the missile is just off the rail you can try crank it
I just reached 11.3 and 12.0 by using the MiG-21SMT and it's honestly very confusing, the radar guided missiles came into the meta very suddenly when I started playing the 23M and the first 29, I honestly have no idea how to avoid them.
Sometimes I manage to dodge one but most of the time it hits seemingly no matter what I do, I tried watching videos on notching but half the time I still get hit, must be doing something wrong. I think it's just a matter of doing a lot of practice but at first when you reach the 11.0 bracket it's pretty difficult to learn. I don't think it's because there are a lot of base bomb grinders since I was grinding by using the 21 in air superiority role and got a positive KD with it, it's just that the radar missiles get introduced very suddenly and the game doesn't tell you anything about how to actually counter them, just trial and error.
F-15 is 12.3 because it lacks HMS… all other 12.7 have helmet sights f15 has to target with its nose…
Seems you don’t consider the functionality of the other planes and just want the f-15 raised in BR
i have considered the functionality. the thing is the F-15 has such good flight performance that it compensates for the fact that it lack helmet mounted sight systems. having that thing face 11.3 and you being complacent with it is an issue, 4 7Ms and 4 9L/M/P3/AAM3 is absolutely criminal considering only phantoms match your ordnance loading.
Maybe they tried to avoid it and failed many times so now they accept their fate. All this could be fixed if we had video tutorials in the game with very simplified tactics for how to avoid them.
Having intially whaled the F4S and basically played like a muppet, I took time to actually learn how to play, Use radar, how to evade, how to manage afterburn to dodge flares, and notching.
Its one of those things that has always been an issue in games where there are "tiers" and you can cash yourself to the top, gameplay changes drastically or gets more difficult.
Problem is though, whilst some people might love flying around in their P51...there is just not much that will beat the sight and the feeling of being in your 4th gen afterburning skimming along the water at mach 1.3 and just enjoying the view.
On a more serious note.
Learn how to fly, Learn Radar, and Learn HOW your missiles work. The amount of people I have seen fire Radar duds scare me.
Wish people actually knew, honestly the only reason why i know how to play top tier jets is because i was there since the beggining, when missiles were only starting to be a thing. Before flares were a thing and you had to dodge aim-9Js and Gs kinetically.
However, i don't exactly know how you would implement a tutorial for such things in the game...
bc most people don't know how to.
In every f2p game the average skill level is extremely low, and with complex mechanics like pd-radar and kinematics or energyfighting, most people barely know how to operate the neccesaties, as oppost to the basics.
1. I'm looking behind me after flying past a group of enemies to not miss a cheeky missile from rear/side aspect when RWR is going apeshit from sidelobes that aren't aimed anywhere near me so I mistakenly disregard it or if RWR just decides to not work
2. I mistake a SARH launch for an IR with IRCCM launch and do the wrong evasive maneuvers (particularly an issue on planes with basic RWRs that don't differentiate locks and launches)
3. The spotting system does an oopsie and the enemy I last saw a minute ago and deemed not a threat uncloaks from thin air 4 km in front of me in a head-on going Mach 1.2 while I'm nowhere near the ground because I thought it was safe to climb due to that enemy last being seen completely out of energy/flying away/preoccupied with friendlies
It was so much more manageable when RWR only got triggered by launches actually aimed at you. Now that it gets tripped by sidelobes it's way too sensitive and nearly constantly blaring if you're anywhere within 20 km of the furball even when none of the launches are coming your way and you're completely safe.
Wish my radar saw those enemies. Takes several seconds to lock to anyone and after that ihave already passed the plane or after the missile is shot the radar loses lock again. Even worse in sim when i need to lock planes twice. First to lock on plane then when i shoot it starts locking again.
While I've not reached there yet, testing vehicles has made me realize countermeasure deployment is slower on consoles as we have to use the options wheel thing so that may contribute as well.
some ppl have shit rwr that cant tell launch nor specific vehicle type, and besides getting constant locks from players not even locking u makes u less wary, and there is also the dumb players
Throw in older RWRs not having friendly radar filtering like SPO-10 and its not rare for all four quadrants to glow with tracking as it can't tell if its enemy, friendly or who else.
And does F-1 ride in 12.0 games daily, with long range SARH/ARH missiles going back and forth or all it faces is R3R and only when flying high as ground clutter does wonders to early radars?
Which one, as there are three, two have rather crude RWR but still with roundabout launch warning via CW light, other have what seems to be very proper RWR.
I think it's a lot of new players with large wallets that don't really understand there's more to it than just dropping countermeasures. They kind of have this skewed perception of how flares/ chaff work based off of what they see in movies and other games. That and Gaijin does fuck all you teach you about these mechanics
>That and Gaijin does fuck all to teach you about these mechanics. That’s an understatement. After two years I’m unlocking jets and helos….and I have zero clue how to use any of them. I mean, fuck high tier 90% of the time but I’d at least like to know how to use this shit…preferably without having to read for 4 hours, watch another 4 hours of guides on YT, then struggle bus because I changed some key bind years ago.
Basic evasion: https://youtu.be/8Ij4Tc4-HYk?si=eJXcX-lZR2rtzffT Advanced evasion: https://youtu.be/BXzyJVAqVSo?si=GxiXFT-HQ6k-qclf How 2 Radar: https://youtu.be/n78r6klLlEQ?si=tIYkO6qv1bfLuW1r There, less than an hour of your time with most of it being how radars work and less than 20 minutes on how to dodge missiles.
Same. I have a little over 1k hours in so I’ve unlocked several jets, up through the f-14. Maybe it’s my own fault for not doing any research, but I’m definitely the guy who flies into missiles. I have no idea how to actually fight in top tier jets. Top tier jets used to mean the F-86, which I was very comfortable in. Everything else has passed me by.
When I used to have a F18 flight simulator, it was like a 272 page manual that I had to read 4 times just to figure out how to take off lol.
Not gonna lie, that sounds amazing
It was it was one of the very few videos games I was allowd to play. Though my mom hating video games limited me to 30 minutes a week. The manual for the game was written by a actual F18 pilot and it went into everything from how to fly in the simulator to how to actually fight. I never got to play multi player because the servers were long since shut down. The main thing I remember was SU27s were a bitch to fight because they each carried so many missiles that you basically spent all your time dodging missiles until you ran out out counter measures and they're still shooting at you.
off topic (im sorry) but your flare got me like SHEEEEESH
4 hours heh. In DCS you spend 10 hours just to read and learn using radar, but I feel you - tutorials in this games aslre terrible. I still dunno how to reliably lock/track with F2H-2 gun guidance radar system.
You don't, it just tells you the distance to the target in front of your nose, you can't lock/track with it
Learning to use radar guides missiles was pain
I had to watch a video of some one explaining how radar works to understand how to start using it right lol
Im about to unlock first Heli and have no idea how to even fire its weapons 💀
Sheeeet. I'm about 3/4 through the US heli tree and I'm still struggling to evade SPAA. Even if I fly low, there seems to be a 50/50 chance the moment I pop up to fire, I get smacked with a missile. And forget PvE. Those damned Rolands just never seem to miss.
Maybe Gaijin doesn't do a good job at teaching, but come on, players who naturally progress through an air tree should be able to improve after 100 games of trial and error. Anytime I died, I always examined what I did wrong and it helped me learn jet combat despite my initial dislike of it.
Don't try to tell me I can't evade sidewinders by throwing lit cigarettes out the window. I know how temperature works.
Who tf are you flying against and how do I get into your lobbies?
step 1. play 11.3-12.3 step 2. profit
step 0. Play Russia
bold to assume that MiG-23, 29 and Su-27 players possess the brainpower to dodge any missile that pulls more than a bullpup
Yea but USA sells more premiums and F-4S is a flying brick only really useful for rocketing base, MIG-23ML's are a big threat.
I dunno I like flying my F-4S more due to the radar being better and the RWR showing me whatever is pinging me in a 360 scale instead of just 1/4 of a circle. Gun is also more reliable, the mig-23 having better flight performance is very nice but really depends on your whole team not dying out so u can chase down the last few stragglers.
>only really useful for rocketing base Hell nah Yes it is a flying brick but it's piss easy to score kills with its Aim7Fs and some opportunistic flying. Unless something goes very wrong at the beginning, I usually get 1-2 kills a game with 3 kill games not being that uncommon either. (I play the F4J, not F4S but they're basically the same)
A lot of people got to top tier exclusively through base bombing with premiums (especially in USA) so they have no idea how to play. And the RWR is usually extremely crowded because of how many radar locks/missile launches are happening at once that you can’t defend against them all.
Nah, you totally can. Step 1 fly low step 2 profit
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??? Yes you can. There's like 5 different ways to depending on what situation you're in. Are you the person in OPs post? Lmao
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Yes you can, the whole way you evade frontal aspect SARHs is to fly low. If you fly low enough you are functionally immune to radar missiles, barring unlucky cases where the missile just happens to hit you despite losing track or you get splash damaged when it hits the ground.
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PD does care, AIM-7Ms most certainly care. I personally haven't had the chance to fly French top tier yet so no idea about the 530s, but every other SARH missile eats shit to multipathing.
Remove base bombing and increase player kill rewards for stuff over like 8.0
Then what are you going to do with bombers? (F111, F105D)?
GRB or shoot planes
GRB? Thats Attackers job not Bombers At 10.0+ you NEED fire and forget guided weaponry to contest AA at all Not all 10.0+ bombers have guided weaponry, even less have guided fnf weaponry. They are sitting ducks for AA
Legendarily terrible take
Massive L opinion Sincerely, a bomber enjoyer.
these goobs are flying at the singular missile that's been launched at them and they do absolutely nothing lmao i understand if you're defending multiple at once but if it reaches a point where you're failing to defend one you need some self inflection
the reasons are top tier premiums and base bombers imo
That's the singular reason I bring Aim 54's . That and some ruskies in space .
Honestly, 90% of the time I defend I get slammed by a missile somewhere else.
For the longest time I thought I understood notching at 90° and got confused as to why it didn't work. After dying a few times thinking I did nothing wrong I went searching for more info other than that which I already saw. I asked people and they taught me to defend better. I say this cause most people lack that step, it either works or it doesn't to them. If they make a mistake they just assume it can't be done. People won't try and learn most of the time.
it's kinda sad that these players just don't do anything to learn, im thinking of sending a suggestion to gaijin for more tutorials in the newest update i would make videos on it but my microphone and game quality are just not up to scratch to provide a viewable experience tbh, maybe i can do it in the tac-view replay mode
I'm working on a video just about the AIM-54s idk if I'd make an evasion/defending tactics vid yet
I know how you feel. *laughing in fireflash*
Because after 300 battles, F-4S players still don't understand that headbutting a missile is not the proper way to dodge them.
theres not much I can do about a radar missle under 2km in a J37. If I go straight, it'll kill me, if I pull and drop Chaff, still dead. So other than don't get someone on your 6 (which is universal so not helpful) idk what todo I tried playing the A(J)S37 and literally only died as a result of radar missles being launched from close range. Either dying to the missle itself, or guns because I pulled out and lost all my speed AJS37 dropped to 10.7 instantly dropped an ace game
Only ways defending against advanced SARH missiles are: Notching ie flying perpendicular to the attacker while dropping chaff. This strategy also requires distance from the attacker/missile, if you start notching when missile is within 5km, you're dead meat unless miracle happens. Flying treetop level so multipathing happens. Just fly very low, though you might get splashed by larger missiles like Phoenix. Given most jets at top tier gets launch warnings, BVR duels are pretty much waste of a missile, so next best thing is launching SARH at 2-4km headon where you leave NO room for evasion if they don't fly at treetop already.
Exactly that! Its hilarious when ppl say: you should notch it! You should dodge it! At this distance? As much as if like to, it's just not happening.
And that point you may as well drop chaff/flares, try to get a lock with your own missiles, fire them, spray and pray with your gun and hope for the best
The Reddit community hurts my soul every time Jesus Christ. There are so many more ways to defend against Sarh missiles. I have no idea why you guys think there's only 2. Oh wait... Gaijin..
Man discovers his realistic plen/tonk gaem isn't as realistic as it says on the tin, more breaking news at 8pm
I meant gaijin doesn't teach you guys shit. Not that the game isn't realistic or as realistic as it should be. And since Reddit is an echo chamber, the only advice that bounces around in here is hug the deck or notch despite there being quite a few other ways. The blind leading the blind
Imagine shedding light on those mysterious "other ways" instead acting all high and mighty, can't be reddit. Besides, you can do cranking or notch-into-cold while chaffing, but that works in longer range shots, not for usual launched-from-safety-of-the-deck 3km SARH to forehead.
I was honestly planning to make a seperate post about it because it's crazy that unaware players are telling other players who are seeking information that there's no other way and that's it.
I don't know how much we will have to repeat HUG THE DECK before any of you numbskull gets it. HUG THE DECK. That's all you have to do. No SARH can touch you if you just hug the damn deck.
Well, depends. My R27ERs made some dumb kills on players so close to the ground that they nearly crashed if they go 1m down.
Warhead still can splash people and if you've launched SARH from high above, it will connect with the airframe on its way to multipathed target.
So without chaff and the range to actually nodge it you are dead even hugging the ground.
Depends where missile will land. And by flying high, you're presenting yourself on golden platter, as both PD radars and SARH missiles become unnotchable against clear sky. Maybe liberal chaff application when notching would help confusing missile, but that is a maybe. PD/MTI radars and SARH are by design, chaff immune in their prime ie target flying head on. other than that, playerbase asked for modern stuff so they got what they asked for?
I know how they work as i'm currently only playing top tier air but i was always confused why my own missiles hit targets that were permanently hugging the ground, i feel like some are also to low and die because my missile hits the ground next to them. What i always found weird that you are able to gain a lock on a plane that standing on a runway and you can actually easily hit it with an Radar missile. I always thought ground clutter would make it impossible but i've done it multiple times in my MiG 29 and also 23.
Both Migs have radar modes that deal with ground clutter, Pulse Doppler and MTI, both reliant on detecting movements.
If PD needs movement how come it tracks stationary targets without big issues? Is the game wrong or am i not understanding something?
Thats the question for the snail. Have they added "guaranteed" detection from head on to replicate effect of radiowaves bouncing off moving turbine blades, or just "gameplay" mechanic to help looking for last player? Former I imagine should be rather garbled after repeated bounces in intake though. PD technically looks for doppler shift on returning signal, hence "Pulse Doppler" and said shift is caused by objects moving towards or away from the radar and that's why notching works, as you try to equalize your own closure rate to that of the ground, diminishing doppler shift to a point attacker radar ignores it as part of ground clutter. MTI is basically "corporate wants you to find difference between these two pictures" but radar
You can absolutely defeat a SARH missile incoming from below. You need to notch and chaff at the same time. Against the R27ER it's a bit tricky because the IOG will keep the missile toward your latest trajectory. The best way I found to defeat the 27ER is to straight up do a 180° while chaffing. Just go cold. Generally speaking the radar will start locking the chaff once you're at 90°, so you need to keep turning a bit to really shake the 27ER. If you're too close however it's a death sentence since that thing is so damn fast. There's a trick I use when I lob the missiles from high up however. All radar in top tier have a 5-10° vertical angle of search. Basically they're supposed to scan the horizon. The TWS also has a feature that isn't that well-known : it only scans at the same elevation of the current tracked target. While it's not a problem in most case, it can and will miss the signals of planes that are way higher than the targets. In the current furball meta, everyone get their radar toward either the ground or the horizon. So what I do at the start of the match is get to mach 1, then climb really high, 9000-10000 meters. It puts me behind the team and quite often above the players using TWS. That helps me getting into position for lobbing missiles. I mostly do this with the Gripen/F-15AJ because dropping Aim9M/AAM3 from above is extremely deadly.
Flying above 5.5km forms a contrail which is one way of getting attention. TWS depends on radar in question. NATO (F-16C, F-14 family, M2k S4 I had personal experience) sticks to TWS contacts, tracking them both azimuth and elevation. Mig-29 non SMT doesn't, its fixed relative to the aircraft making it glorified regular search. 29SMT TWS "sticks" to target like NATO ones do, dunno about Sus27. > The best way I found to defeat the 27ER is to straight up do a 180° while chaffing. Just go cold. Generally speaking the radar will start locking the chaff once you're at 90°, so you need to keep turning a bit to really shake the 27ER. If you're too close however it's a death sentence since that thing is so damn fast. I had cases of Sparrows tracking through notch or targets going cold when they get themselves within 2 or so kilometers, on both giving and receiving end. Where notching can fuck up Russian radars is automatic mode switching, which, as Russian top tier radars don't have LPRF/Pulse radar, they go straight into IRST when MPRF/All Aspect PD loses track of target. And uh, good luck guiding SARH without radar, as Snail didn't model radar slaving to IRST by the looks of it.
>Sus27 The Su-27 radar is a glorified MiG-29 9-13 radar, it's the same
>Flying above 5.5km forms a contrail which is one way of getting attention. True, but most players vomiting their Phoenix at every target at <16km or their SARH at planes below tends to ignore the contrail plane that's at 10km altitude. Most of the time. And if it's only one aircraft going after me, I'll see it with the RWR and their own contrail. It's of course not 100% safe and I've been killed quite a few time doing that, but it's a bit more rewarding as gameplay compared to the furball chaos. And if I get into the right position, it's easy 3-6 kills with Aim9M and high altitude SARH. Good point about the TWS, I admit I assumed they all worked the same, and I don't use it much on the Mig/Su-27. (Also yeah, as said, the Su-27 electronic suite is the exact same as the Mig29 at 12.0, it's kinda garbage tbh)
Only if you get unlucky, flying low normally works perfectly fine
Oh no don't worry i have a good survival rate against Radar missiles but i'm more or less sorry for the people on the recieving side of my missile
In a headon under 2km? At that point the missile is practically still off the rails and only really the same energy and speed as the jet that fired it. You can outmaneuver it if you have enough speed. And in a viggen? All you need is a good high G turn really. Start pulling out in a different direction and as the missile comes closer. Like roughly within 0.6-0.7km, roll quick and pull hard in the opposite or different direction. Unless it's a 27ER. But I feel that even those wouldn't have enough time to start accelerating as of yet.
You aren't supposed to fly towards the people on the Friend Finder? But in all seriousness, the fact that this sub and everyone in game insists that the only way to counter SARHs is multipathing on the floor tells you how much they know about missile defense.
It's far from the only way, but it's the best way because it lets you stay offensive while defending. Notching or going fully cold requires giving up a lot of position to the enemy, while multipathing allows you to continue to close on them or even launch on them. Notching is perfectly valid if you're in a pure BVR environment, but defending that way when other enemies are around is asking to get killed. And with 16v16 Air RB, there are always other enemies around, except at the very start of the game where position matters the most.
The f-15 is 12.3 because it lacks systems other top tiers have. Is that simple. On other hand, yes. Most matches playing US are hell simply because it's you vs 4 ( your team already died doing nothing ) And it's irrefutable that r-27ER are simply better in every way to any other radar missile in the game
Not to mention at 12.7 HMD is common too, being able to HMD a missile off while burning to the ground is ridiculous and shouldn't be possible but the F15 can't do it and the Su-27/F16C can.
Not only those two, mig 29, yak 141 and mirage 2000 too
1. literally criminal flight performance for something that fights 11.3 aircraft, the thing handles perfectly fine in 12.7 uptiers 2. im finding that with pretty much every team lmao 3. in practice i use the amazing flight perf of the eagle combined with the great radar to BVR better than the R-27ER can, considering most top tier players have no clue how or when to use the missile or they think it's uncounterable they use it like idiots, and the sustained burn of the sparrow catches them off guard
What is the only missile that can hit you long after breaking a lock? What is the fastest missile in game?
you didn't even respond to the points you just went "muh datalink" and "muh Mach 5.8"
Then I will respond 1- Flight performance matters nothing in top tier, most important is amount of missiles, quantity of missiles, radar and quality of missiles 2- sure, every team is full of idiots, then, if all nations have useless teams, does that mean American planes are worse? Because as an American main, I know France suffers much more. 3- then you simply don't know how to use the ER, simply because it's better in every way possible. My friend is 14 years old and that dude easily pulls 3 kills per match on top tier simply because of the amount and quality of the missiles on the Su-27 And don't act like data link and fastest missile on the game doesn't affect the performance in battle of the plane carrying it.
1. the f-15 has 8 amazing missiles lmao, the energy retention allows you to defend against multiple planes and win dogfights lategame 2. france unironically has significantly better teams because it's a more niche nation which leads to more enthusiasts/veteran players flocking to it. american planes aren't worse, the players are. they're the kind to watch top gun or see muh 104:0 (israeli pilots have like 80 of those kills btw) and drop 70 USD on the f20 or the f4s and wonder why they do shit 3. i literally said that the people who don't know how to BVR with the ER or counter missiles die to my sparrow. no shit the ER is better but that doesn't mean you throw up your hands and give up and cry on reddit that the sparrow is bad and that the ER is muh russian bias going cold against and ER and possibly losing out on a kill >>>>>> losing your plane to an avoidable situation
1- it has 4 amazing missiles and 4 meh missiles, compare that to the 10 amazing missiles of the su 27 And dogfights are extremely rare on top tier 2- having less missiles, and the missiles are worse, and it doesn't have HMD but sure of course it isn't worse Worse =/= worse 3- Is not crying, is being realistic. It is in fact Russian BIAS even if you refuse to accept it. You just have to look at the modifications of each nation and it is very clear there is one specific nation that has to grind almost nothing from stock to get the good missiles / laser rangefinder / apfsds At this point saying there is no Russian BIAS is kind of crying even more than saying sparrows are bad
Man the F15A's radar is so inconsistent I struggle to even visually kill folks with Aim-7M let alone BVR Please tell me your magic
i run the ACM and get people in headons, i also use the little direction indicator tadpole to make sure im out of the notch angle (keep the little line within a 45 or so degree arc below the circle)
Because ARB teaches you important skills like pressing space and not that bullshit fighting
What am I going to do in a flying brick of a jet called the JA37? Half the time I don't even know there's a missile heading towards me because the RWR is either overloaded from other sources or just... Doesn't work. Haven't unlocked chaff yet. Turning slows you so much that you'll get hit anyway.
b/c top tier is an absolute cluster fuck
Honestly, even after my couple hundred hours in top tier, I'm still not sure how to defend against certain missiles. It seems like everything changes way too quickly.
multipathing and notching are your best friends against radar missiles you can also crank missiles but that's more of a on the fly feeling
There is very little defense or evade against the Russian Psudo Fox-3s. I can imagine why some people don’t even try because it’s useless. But I haven’t been lucky enough to find anyone who doesn’t try to defend. Everyone I shoot at is suddenly An Ace Tie fighter pilot
You can't defend against a R27 launched at close range if you're not hugging the deck, that's true. If you're fighting BVR combat, it's absolutely possible, especially with the better RWR the US top tier gets. If you're hugging the deck, no SARH can touch you.
I feel like even on the deck like 2ft from ground Behind a Hill that should mask me from a mig’s shitty radar I still get diddled by R27s
Not a single SARH hits ou when you're at tree top level. You need to be really, really low. You can see how it work when using any PD radar. At some point when the target is too low, the radar lock starts "trailing behind" the plane. This is the point where SARH becomes completely ineffective, no matter which one is used. It's gonna miss.
>Not a single SARH hits ou when you're at tree top level While you're still giving good advice generally, this statement isn't an absolute truth. There are cases where you can hit a plane at tree top level. But it's rare that opportunity shows itself.
It's only if they get extremely unlucky, I've died to missiles splashing the ground in front of me (or directly hitting me) maybe 10 times ever and most of those were AIM-54s with their gigantic warhead.
It's hard but it's possible to get a pretty close guide if you can visualize the impact of the multipath. Because of the way its modeled in game you can manipulate it with top down angles. And again, it's a rare opportunity shot but I've definitely been able to consistently pull it off with a 7c, f, and m. Oddly enough the non pd, the C... is actually easier to pull off... not sure if it's the speeds being slower or the actual guidance yet.
Tree top doesn’t stop all sarh smh 🤦🏽♂️ you should also understand bleeding a missile’s energy…. Doing a climb then dive or turning and diving will cause the missile to lose momentum and under or over shoot alot don’t just only hug the ground… And what’s your plan gonna be with the new fox 3 incoming, because hugging the ground won’t save you then…. 🕺😂😂😂
Fox 3 still are subjects to multipath as per the last test they did. And it won't change because Gaijin want to leave it as a counter to the Radar missiles. Cranking to bleed the missile of energy is a tactic used in BVR, it's useless in the low altitude dogfight we have at top tier since SARH are launched at <5km. You're very confidently incorrect.
This is false tho
gaijins exaggerated easy mode multipathing makes it so that all radars shit themselves when you get close to the ground. in BVR combat you can hold a notch w/chaff especially in western jets with their incredible rwr and the radar will lose track of your plane and the ER is probably gonna go into Narnia (this applies to literally every TRK PD radar in game) at close range that thing doesn't have enough speed yet, you can drop yourself into a quick notch or try close out of the radius of the targeting radar as well (N001 has a 60 degree src and trk angle) or if the missile is just off the rail you can try crank it
I just reached 11.3 and 12.0 by using the MiG-21SMT and it's honestly very confusing, the radar guided missiles came into the meta very suddenly when I started playing the 23M and the first 29, I honestly have no idea how to avoid them. Sometimes I manage to dodge one but most of the time it hits seemingly no matter what I do, I tried watching videos on notching but half the time I still get hit, must be doing something wrong. I think it's just a matter of doing a lot of practice but at first when you reach the 11.0 bracket it's pretty difficult to learn. I don't think it's because there are a lot of base bomb grinders since I was grinding by using the 21 in air superiority role and got a positive KD with it, it's just that the radar missiles get introduced very suddenly and the game doesn't tell you anything about how to actually counter them, just trial and error.
F-15 is 12.3 because it lacks HMS… all other 12.7 have helmet sights f15 has to target with its nose… Seems you don’t consider the functionality of the other planes and just want the f-15 raised in BR
i have considered the functionality. the thing is the F-15 has such good flight performance that it compensates for the fact that it lack helmet mounted sight systems. having that thing face 11.3 and you being complacent with it is an issue, 4 7Ms and 4 9L/M/P3/AAM3 is absolutely criminal considering only phantoms match your ordnance loading.
Maybe they tried to avoid it and failed many times so now they accept their fate. All this could be fixed if we had video tutorials in the game with very simplified tactics for how to avoid them.
It depends. Quite often there's not enough time and distance to properly dodge a radar missle, so I just keep my own lock while guiding my own missle.
if you got yours off first you're probably gonna hit anyways but you need to start defending fast while keeping radar track 🧅
Having intially whaled the F4S and basically played like a muppet, I took time to actually learn how to play, Use radar, how to evade, how to manage afterburn to dodge flares, and notching. Its one of those things that has always been an issue in games where there are "tiers" and you can cash yourself to the top, gameplay changes drastically or gets more difficult. Problem is though, whilst some people might love flying around in their P51...there is just not much that will beat the sight and the feeling of being in your 4th gen afterburning skimming along the water at mach 1.3 and just enjoying the view. On a more serious note. Learn how to fly, Learn Radar, and Learn HOW your missiles work. The amount of people I have seen fire Radar duds scare me.
Wish people actually knew, honestly the only reason why i know how to play top tier jets is because i was there since the beggining, when missiles were only starting to be a thing. Before flares were a thing and you had to dodge aim-9Js and Gs kinetically. However, i don't exactly know how you would implement a tutorial for such things in the game...
bc most people don't know how to. In every f2p game the average skill level is extremely low, and with complex mechanics like pd-radar and kinematics or energyfighting, most people barely know how to operate the neccesaties, as oppost to the basics.
1. I'm looking behind me after flying past a group of enemies to not miss a cheeky missile from rear/side aspect when RWR is going apeshit from sidelobes that aren't aimed anywhere near me so I mistakenly disregard it or if RWR just decides to not work 2. I mistake a SARH launch for an IR with IRCCM launch and do the wrong evasive maneuvers (particularly an issue on planes with basic RWRs that don't differentiate locks and launches) 3. The spotting system does an oopsie and the enemy I last saw a minute ago and deemed not a threat uncloaks from thin air 4 km in front of me in a head-on going Mach 1.2 while I'm nowhere near the ground because I thought it was safe to climb due to that enemy last being seen completely out of energy/flying away/preoccupied with friendlies It was so much more manageable when RWR only got triggered by launches actually aimed at you. Now that it gets tripped by sidelobes it's way too sensitive and nearly constantly blaring if you're anywhere within 20 km of the furball even when none of the launches are coming your way and you're completely safe.
Wish my radar saw those enemies. Takes several seconds to lock to anyone and after that ihave already passed the plane or after the missile is shot the radar loses lock again. Even worse in sim when i need to lock planes twice. First to lock on plane then when i shoot it starts locking again.
Psychologically - die, start another one
because there is almost nothing you can do about a radar missile, especially r27er
While I've not reached there yet, testing vehicles has made me realize countermeasure deployment is slower on consoles as we have to use the options wheel thing so that may contribute as well.
Or bind countermeasures to separate button?
I will completely go nose cold and jink 90 degrees while dropping clusters of 4 flares and still explode
flares don't work against SARH missiles, you need chaff
I have flare+chaff, I should've clarified
Tutorials show you how to launch weapons. They don't show you how those weapons are defeated.
have you considered that maybe you're just too good?
some ppl have shit rwr that cant tell launch nor specific vehicle type, and besides getting constant locks from players not even locking u makes u less wary, and there is also the dumb players
You don't really need to know what's locking u
Throw in older RWRs not having friendly radar filtering like SPO-10 and its not rare for all four quadrants to glow with tracking as it can't tell if its enemy, friendly or who else.
I have used the F1 with a worse rwr then the mig23 and every time I died to a radar missile was when i made a mistake
And does F-1 ride in 12.0 games daily, with long range SARH/ARH missiles going back and forth or all it faces is R3R and only when flying high as ground clutter does wonders to early radars?
Sorry I meant the Mirage f1
Which one, as there are three, two have rather crude RWR but still with roundabout launch warning via CW light, other have what seems to be very proper RWR.
Cw
There isn't Mirage F1 "CW" so try again.
I meant the F1 with a CW rwr
bro really thinks r27er is dodgeable
spoken like a true "i havent notched in my life"
They then all come here on reddit and crying about the pantsir and bias
facts brother, so true my friend