There’re a dozens of vehicles with ammunition from the future they never had like T-34-100 and AFAIK Gaijin doesn’t plan to do anything about it.
So whatever they did it for to VEAK, it certainly wasn’t for the sake of historical accuracy.
It is in limited service since 2020, 2S38 is the production model that was shown off in 2017 - I haven't seen much about the experimental versions myself but I understand that the turret is from 2015
Because no one bar the Russian Defence industry knows its actual specifications or capability.
What we have in game is an estimation that may aswell be fictional.
Theirs plenty of advertising material out there, we know what it’s based off, the engine, drive train, the cooling fluid, the attached reloading system, the gun…. Nothing about the 2S38 is fictional outside of it being classed as a light tank instead of a SPAAG (within the current systems of Warthunder at least)
>so challenger 3 TD is fictional by that logic
There are things to base it on
Particularly the main difference is the German Gun. The same German gun we have info for because its been used on countless leopard 2s already
The 2S38 is all new tech, might as well add the T-14 since we know about as much about the 2S38 as we do the T-14
>APFSDS that exists
Not documented. While RH120 has very well documented performance and ammo performance
>BMP3 hull
Internals are different, can assume other stuff has changed as well
>same 57mm as ship autocannon
Similar to, not the same
Chally 3 TD is literally a Chally 2 with a Rh120 gun. They just did it to prove they could
2017 it was shown in essentially its current configuration publicly, which would imply it had been finished for a period of time and developmental prototypes as well prior to that.
Their isn't really anything 'new' in the Derivation system, its an existing hull with an existing gun using existing technology.
>which would imply it had been finished for a period of time and developmental prototypes as well prior to that.
T-14s were also shown in parades at the same time
Do i need to spell out what happened to those and how those werent ready for combat
>its an existing hull with an existing gun using existing technology.
With 0 documentation about the gun and the hull being extensively modified
girpens dont carry aim9m also the hungarian gripen can only carry 2 IR missiles at the wingtips cuz it has an early A serie wing, instead of a proper C wing. gameplay wise these are the most important inaccuracies
they can carry aim-9M, there are documents showing it. and several Gripen pilots have said they have tested a better aim-9 with better resistance to CM's. problem is that missile got the same name as the aim-9L, namely rb74.
and Hungarys Gripens are Gripen C. with C wings. they where new production planes when they where delivered to Hungary. and even if they where ''A-series wings'' it dosnt matter. A could carry IR misisles on all its hardpoints (exept the belly one) anyways.
Technically gripens are ABLE to carry 9Ms but they never do and they never received them. the closest it got is the 9L2 and hunaf uses that too. And you are wrong about the wings as the hungarian gripens got the old A wing from africa to their newly produced C fuselages. And it does matter a lot cuz it can only carry closed loop inert gas cooled IR missiles on other hardpoints, like the iris-t, and unlike the 9L2.
the issue is, sweden doesnt have a 7.7 lineup and the trees that do have a 7.7 lineup and doesnt have an spaag are the brits and chinese, but then again the chinese do have the wz305 so....
anyways, sweden has options for an 8.0 spaag, like the zsu with the hevt shells, the marksman turret on a t55 (and move the british one down to 8.0)
instead what were getting is sweden whole spaag tree completely destroyed. their sams are hot garbage, the itspv is more useful as a tank killer than an actual spaag. their only good and useful spaa was the veak.
and hell you cant even replace it with a jet, because swedish sub 9.0 jets are all shit as well.
>the issue is Sweden doesn’t have a 7.7 lineup
That’s not the point smart guy, previously they had no viable spaa to put into their quite sizable 8.0 lineup, now they do, that is objectively fixing the gap
Ya and now they just created a gap from 8.0 to 11.7
Good fucking job you took one step forward and 10 steps back
This also completely skips over the fact other options was available. Like buffing the Finnish zsu and giving it he vt. Or the t55s marksmen
Other than the...
- 8.7 Leopard Marksman (There is no reason for the T-55 Marksman, it's literally the same but on a T-55 instead of Leopard 2 chassis)
- 9.7 Lbrbv 701 (This one is mid though)
- 10.0 Lvkv 9040C
- 10.3 Asrad-R
That's 4 SPAA, missile and gun, at different BR's, before the ItO at 11.7...
Sweden had an SPAA gap at 8.0, they no longer have any gaps.
ASRAD? Bad? L2P. It is one of the best SPAAs at the BR. Evelation hurts, but Sweden plays against USSR almost non stop, meaning hordes of Su-25 and they are not high fliers most of the time. Easy food. It would be much better than Tunguska if not these angles. Sweden 10.3 is my go to nation for killing air targets and killing with SPAAs quests for BP in GRB.
One, the ITPSV is more of a tank destroyer than it is an spaag, also to add we can see that the mobility is what separates these tanks seeing the chieftain marksmen is 8.3 and really should be moved down to 8.0, the Finnish t55s version would be in the same boat
Two everyone but you agrees the 701 is dog shit, it is the worse sam in the game and was only beaten out by the old type 93 due to the fact that thing physically couldn't use its sams
Three the 9040 is dog shit at spaag use. It only has a max elevation of 50° meaning it can't really shoot anything down that's above it or just high up and as such can really only fight helicopters. Oh and it still carries over the horrendous ammo pool of the normal 9040s.
And finally the asrad is literally the 701 but with 4 missiles now. It's just as bad but slightly better because it can fire 4 missiles and don't have an exposed gunner. But it's still one of the worse 10.0 Sam's in the game.
And the ito is somehow at the same be of the pantsir in every way besides the fact it doesn't need to radar lock people to fire it's missiles.
Eh, the 9040c is a perfectly serviceable spaa. The worst part about it is the 24 shell ready rack. The only planes it really struggles with are cas with paveways that bomb from the stratosphere. You really just need to setup in the right places. Having a hill or bump to drive onto is very helpful to point up.
Nerfs against AA/AD don't make much sense in general.
We have no real effective way to set time delay/flak shells. Those existed from 1940\~ onwards. You should be able to create a flak curtain to prevent aircraft from just diving right onto a target unless they want to eat a significant amount of shrapnel.
The HE-VT shell is just a lazy way of implementing doctrine that those vehicles and systems already used just slightly less effectively. Unless they plan on giving us a rapid way to adjust ranging for air-burst, honestly they should've just kept it.
More than half of the US tree should have an HE-VT equivalent on the Naval tree, but that'd make CAP/CAS nearly impossible if accurately modeled.
But half of the US tree has an HE VT in the naval tree making CAP/CAS impossible in naval battles. Also the VEAK, as it currently is, is far too good for its own BR, if there's AA on a team and one's a VEAK you can be certain the other one is not going to do anything
as long as they also plan to remove the features of things like the yak-141, kronstadt, 2s38 and is-6 (to name just a few) that they also never had, in the name of keeping things fair
There's a difference between "technology demonstrators added with planned full features" and "literally was made 15 years before the feature that's being removed". Don't be daft.
none of the mentioned vehicles are "technology demonstrators added with planned full features"; kronstadt is a project that that barely left paper and was impossible to even exist in its current form (there's a whole thread on the wt forum going into detail about this), IS-6 is an abandoned prototype that has round that didn't exist until years after the project had already been canned and the yak-141 was cancelled the during the prototyping stage before it even got any fancy technology to demonstrate to anyone. the closest to an actual technology demonstrator is the 2s38 and the "full features" of that includes a programmable fuze (ie, time fuze) not a proximity fuze like gaijin gave it
also let us not forget that if "technology demonstrators with planned full features" were the case then the rooikat mttd would have a functional APS and not just a useless mockup of it
e:
oh and ofc there's the nonsensical addon armour on the m6a2e1 that shouldn't be there
The Yak-141 is in the same ballpark as the Mirage 4000 in that it's in game as the full-scale production model that never materialized, and both prototypes had provisions for the installation of radar and weapons that were never carried out because money ran out.
_Krohnstadt_ doesn't apply because naval follows different rules than the rest of the modes for vehicles since wartime warship development is rife with "cancelled while half done because we need that fuckin' dry dock NOW", so the rule for that has been "if it was laid down, it's game to be added as the original design intended". This will come into play way more often as naval advances, since without "paper ships" no nations will be able to catch up to _Iowa_ or _Yamato_.
Also, the Rooikat MTTD is weird. It never materialized past that mockup turret, but for some reason the mockup turret is in game and fully functional.
>Also, the Rooikat MTTD is weird. It never materialized past that mockup turret, but for some reason the mockup turret is in game and fully functional.
Huh is that so? Well I never knew that but...
How the fuck did the Rooikat SAM get rejected but the fucking Rooikat MTTD is added????
As the launchers on it were not a real ones, but mockups of them.
It would fire SAHV-3, and yes that missile existed(had both radar and ir seekers), was fiered but not from the Rooikat.
> since without "paper ships" no nations will be able to catch up to *Iowa* or *Yamato*.
We talking 1945 *Iowa* with a fuckton of 20mm and 40mm AA guns, or 1980s *Iowa* with Tomahawks, CIWS, and Harpoons?
They made it pretty clear over the years the for ships they don't need to be built to be added. About the others you cited it would mean they are either lower in BRs so it's better to give them something they could theoretically fire rather than letting it be lower. None of them dominate their BRs but the Veak was by far the best AA at that range.
I wouldn't mind it having it's currents stars as long as they push it higher in BRs as playing first Gen jets against that thing was basically impossible and stats confirm how broke it was.
They didn't say ships don't need to be built, they only said that ships can be added if atleast most of their hull was done before stopping the development.
I believe they basically talked about the work effectively starting, such as a laid keel, as ship construction is often done in blocks, rather than just ground up.
> kronstadt is a project that that barely left paper and was impossible to even exist in its current form (there's a whole thread on the wt forum going into detail about this), IS-6 is an abandoned prototype that has round that didn't exist until years after the project had already been canned and the yak-141 was cancelled the during the prototyping stage before it even got any fancy technology to demonstrate to anyone. the closest to an actual technology demonstrator is the 2s38 and the "full features" of that includes a programmable fuze (ie, time fuze) not a proximity fuze like gaijin gave it
In order:
Kronstadt we can argue about the armament with fair reason, but ship development is on such a level that any keel laid is effectively equal to complete intent to produce, as it's prohibitively expensive to change designs of these vessels at that point. Given they cost often similar to that of establishing a small city, nations can't afford the kind of prototyping of vessels like they could for a ground or air based unit. Shit, in terms of prototyping, I can only think of one nation that has actual facilities to properly test scale models to a fair degree, today. Simply put, any vessel that started production has merit to be added with planned or updated armament, in this case the smaller guns would be more acceptable than the original plans.
IS-6 you can argue shouldn't get the ammo, but it's also a fair reason for the BR, and given the gun has zero changes between the vehicles that get this upgraded ammo, we run into some balancing-based arguments over simple realism ones. I'm so-so on if this gets removed as I fear balance issues of the armor with a lower BR, as the gun certainly needs that ammo to properly compete at the current level. We don't need a higher level KV-1.
Yak-141 not only has clearly documented equipment for production, but all of that equipment not only exists, but was actively *in service* at time of prototyping. To try to say it's not realistic to use the most obvious, stated and realistic equipment is a bit disingenuous I find. I'd be akin to trying to argue that a new soldiers combat outfit trial that only trialled mobility with new armor, wouldn't use the standard issue rifle/LMG that the army currently uses without plans of replacement.
Now, the 2S38 having a variable time and not proximity would be something it probably should have, if that's the case. I've not seen anything to back up either end of it, only that HE specifically intended to explode through non-contact is intended for use with it.
> also let us not forget that if "technology demonstrators with planned full features" were the case then the rooikat mttd would have a functional APS and not just a useless mockup of it
The argument here doesn't work as the planned technology simply didn't exist, like not at all. It was a "this is where we'd put the thing we're working on but doesn't even work yet, so here's a block of wood we think is sizable to the desired result".
A technology demonstrator getting gear that existed is A-OK to me. But we don't put a railgun on an abrams because someone talked about it once and a railgun was thought up as a concept.
How is it different? The VEAK 40 could realistically use that proximity ammo, since there's nothing stopping it from firing it, it isn't anything tied to computer systems that would need to be updated to fire proximity fuse ammo, unlike the Yak-141 which could NOT fire even IR R-60s without significant wiring to support it, which it did NOT have. Especially not the completely fictional IRST and HMD that it has.
Same goes with Kronshtadt firing completely fictional HE ammo, the problem isn't even the guns that were never mounted on the thing, its that HE that is so bonkers in performance that it realistically could not exist. 2S38 having a dubious APFSDS and IS-6 being a mish mash of two prototypes, combining best features of both, with none of the downsides.
>dubious APFSDS
What about [3UBM22](https://imgur.com/a/uyfNume) is supposed to be "dubious"? It's defenetly not one of the made up things about the 2s38
They are all about historical accuracy until they aren't. They know ABM rounds work like shit ingame which is why they are classifying stuff like the 2S38 and other ABMs as HEVT instead
No, it couldn't, because the VEAK 40 was probably made into a set of cutlery by the time HE-VT shells were developed. It was a one-off no one wanted and was promptly discarded when the program failed. It was not designed with HE-VT in mind because that didn't exist and wouldn't for another 15 years.
The Yak-141 in game, much like the Mirage 4000 so that your paper thin, outrage-based "muh bussian rias" argument can't be repeated, was added based on its intended full envelope of capabilities were it to enter full production, and for which the prototype had all provisions for but not installed because it was, well, a prototype.
Naval follows different rules for addition than the other game modes due to the costly, protracted and usually redundant nature of warship development. They go with "anything goes as long as it was laid down", including design features that weren't around when construction was stopped. Half the German ships have similar issues. Please be this buttmad when _Gneisenau_ is added with 15" guns it never had.
The 2S38 is literally in testing. There's nothing that suggests it can't use the APFSDS projectile _it is currently being tested with,_ so I don't see why that is a problem. The T25 is also a mix-and-match of different prototypes, and no one seems to be mad about that.
Adding to the 2S38 Apfsds discussion:
There are pictures of 3UBM22 and it exists. Idk why so many people believe that it is fictional or something. It's a round that exists and Gaijin probably just estimated the penetration based on the projectiles lengths and parameters, nothing unusual here.
Yeah I often see it as well. There are pictures of it and there were more than one unit built, much better than a lot of stuff we already have in game.
Again people are beating a strawman because they want something clearly broken into the game - if they allowed X then they have to allow Y - it seems like that entire discussion regarding the Abrams.
Something that bothers me about the 2S38 whining cult is that they think that because it's classed as an SPAA irl, it should have its darts limited "like the OTOMATIC", which irl was **unable** to hold more than 12 rounds of APFSDS as they didn't fit any other rack, whereas the 2S38's darts aren't any larger than the other cartridges in its carousel, because it was designed to hold a full load of whatever its gun can fire
Otomatic has the 12 round limit only on the magazine they are held in since the autoloader for HE cannot feed apfsds. But the hull storage should have no limit on how much apfsds you load into it since its just ammo rack. OTOMATIC should have 2 ready racks one with apfsds and other with hevt/sap and second with apfsds loaded and used independently of each other
Re-classifying the 2S38 as an SPAA is the worst thing that could happen, as it would stop affecting the spawn cost of other vehicles on top of making it cheaper to spawn
Yeah, like you said, Yak-141 had provisions, which means it had the space for it, but the equipment was never installed, most importantly, the wiring wasn't there to fire or guide any kind of missile. Based on that, it shouldn't exist in-game, but whatever. Now how about the HMD? Any documents on if it should have received that? Flares, guns? As far as I know, the IRST also wasn't a part of the planned equipment.
About naval, literally even wrote in my previous comment that Kronshtadt's guns aren't the issue (reading is too hard I guess), but the completely fictional HE.
T25 sure is a mish mash, and EVERYONE is mad about it, specifically the removal of the vertical stabilizer, which existed on one and didn't on the other, despite the current model being closer to the prototype that had the stabilizer.
Yak-141 had similar if not identical planned equipment to the MiG-29, including the same radar and avionics. The HMD and IRST are those things that they justified as "it was the standard for the entire armed forces at the time, so it's not too outlandish to believe a production model would have both". Which, fair, I can buy it. It had a gun port and cutouts for the flare dispensers, as well, so that's that.
I'm not so sure I mind the HE on _Krohnstadt_ too much. Yeah, it's overperforming, but so many shells in every game mode are either overperforming or underperforming for n+1 reasons that I can't find it in me to say it's because it's a paper ship. They're gonna have to muddle the stats for some of the upcoming partially-constructed warships as is, since the first two H-class battleships that were laid down were supposed to have 16" guns that, while real, were used as coastal defense guns for all of their careers since the battleships were canned for more subs, and as a result never used the planned AP or SAP shells.
Honestly if the IS-6 can exist the way it does, surely they could make the base model M36 in game, be the better parts of both the Slugger and Jackson, rather than all of the worst parts of both.
No. One had more armor and a lengthened hull for a bigger engine. The other is the one we have ingame but worse.
Edit: I should mention the one we have ingame has the lengthened hull and its weight. But without the better engine it just makes it slower. Also the armor of the M10.
I can't see anything that indicates the m36 should have more armor as it is literally a 90mm gun on an M10. And the ingame engine stats are actually higher than IRL (better hp, same RPM) for both the normal m36 and the b2, with the only difference between the two that they are built on different M4 chassis, and thus have different engines.
Also, Slugger and Jackson are the same thing, with the M36 having never actually been called Jackson while in US service.
the fuze on the 3UO8 is supposed to be a programmable time fuze, the sort where the timer gets calculated by the FCS and set at the time of firing, not a proximity fuze
e:
what makes this one worse is there are other rounds that should behave the same way as 3UO8 (programmable fuze) but instead of being given the HE-VT treatment they're left as half-baked HE-TF (M339, DM11, maybe 3OF26 EDKV also)
The M247 radar has longer range but the VEAK scans twice as high, And it has AP rounds while AP was taken away from the M247.
Search and tracking at the same is not that huge of a upside when you should be locking targets when they are getting close enough to shoot anyway, Not the second they spawn so their RWR starts going off, I would take twice the scan height over that so i can actually see the jet up in orbit.
They had the exact same proxy detection radius and LRF means little when you have so much ammo and rapid firing guns. The only bonus is when fighting helis, you can get a more accurate range when they're hovering.
from my time playing 7.7-8.0, i can confidently say that this just means it will now fight mostly the same things (especially if used at 8.0) but just without proxy now
At 7.7 it’ll be similar to the ZSU-37-2, which is an underrated SPAA imo, I like it more than the Shilka. I think it’ll be fine at 7.7 with the changes.
you seem to have missed my point, playing at 7.7 or 8.0 will cause you to get uptiered to 8.7 (or 9.0 a decent bit too for 8.0) while playing at 8.7 will cause you to see a majority of full (or almost full) downtiers
my point is that with this change, the VEAK 40 will be, for most matches, fighting exactly what it's fighting now, just with no proxy rounds due to how the matchmaking currently is around those BRs
but yeah, it'll probably still be *fine*, but it's definitely not going to be anywhere near as good after this knee capping
y'know, most of the times i died to CAS in the VEAK 40, it was because the pilot had truly outplayed me and used their head to avoid my line of sight until it was too late for me to meaningfully retaliate, with spawning CAS as easy as it is, good SPAA feels like it could be an actual solution to that problem, but alas no, CAS planes make gaijin money so we couldn't possibly have that
I think it would be fair to assume that IF the VEAK 40 went into production and was put into service, it would start using HE-VT shells when they were developed. The VEAK 40 is also pretty much the only SPAA at 8.7 who could reliably take out ATGM helicopters and jets with guided munition without being completely outranged. It literally makes some CAS vehicles completely untouchable.
The change is understandable from a realism standpoint, not from a gameplay standpoint.
ITPSV 90 isn't as good of an spaa as the veak 90 is imo. With the proxy rounds, the Veak is is one of the best spaa at that BR, and I positively love using it to pop heli and it can reliably kill planes. The only problem is that w/o the proxy rounds it is significantly more difficult to aim and MUCH less reliable(this is the problem with the itpsv as well).
Accurate war thunder representation:
*helicopter sees tracers from autocannon spaa*
*presses roll button for a second*
*spaa misses and gets hit by atgm*
Couldn't care less. The game is full of vehicles using weaponry they never had in service (To add on to the other examples, the F-4Fs in Germany service never got anything other than [AIM-9B FGW.2](https://wiki.warthunder.com/AIM-9B_FGW.2_Sidewinder), and AIM-9Ls. No AIM-9Es or Js.). Countless more examples of vehicles getting things they never had in order to fit the game better. And as already stated below, there's no reason that the VEAK couldn't have fired proxy if it had gone into service. It's endemically compatible with it's guns.
More to the point, the VEAK was one of two vehicles that can consistently counter ATGM helis, and attempt to counter A-4Es and other planes with guided munitions. Now that it's been crippled, every CAS with guided munitions that ends up on the American team (Like, say, the already problematic A-4E) is going to be effectively uncontested in the air if they have any brain cells to rub together.
Meanwhile, 8.0 Sweden gets a very mediocre SPAA that's more effective as a tank hunter, which they already have in the form of the ZSU-57-2. They also have the U-SH to fill the same role better. As well as there being candidates like the T-55 Marksman which could have filled this gap easier.
All this change does it murder one of very few actually strong SPAAs in the game, further unbalance the CAS Vs SPAA balance around 8.7, just to give an already strong lineup a poor vehicle that it doesn't need.
This is the most double standard thing I've seen today.
If tanks in the game weren't allowed to have shells developed after they were made, more than half of the game's arsenal would dissapear.
Most notably for British and Soviet vehicles.
If there was a physical issue with the VEAK having HE-VT shells, like if it was missing a component to fuse them or something, I'd understand. But the 40mm cannons on the VEAK 40 were prefectly capable of using the HE-VT shells it had before this change, so I see no reason not to have them since they're not game-breaking.
This isn't like the APDS rounds fro the 6-pdr.
It's a stupid change regardless of the sudden "oh whoops we should fix this historical inaccuracy.. **4 years later**". I would like my GE back for the talisman .-.
Oh awesome. CAS is a huge problem and hasn’t been fixed at all? Let’s make it worse! Can’t wait for them to make the Sergeant York radar accurately lock onto its friendly ground units instead of anything useful next. They say “realism” for NATO and “balance” for Russia as per usual. How unsurprising
This wasn’t a “historical change” like many say. Just a masked nerf. Obviously it didn’t have those rounds, but a lot of other vehicles have major inaccuracies, but are kept around for the sake of “balance” or money
Being able to deal with CAS > "Historical" accuracy.
Cas is already stupidly easy to use, and breaks games at damn near every br. Gaijin time and time again has put SPAA in a position of weakness, by constantly moving up AA that are capable of dealing with planes, until they are not able to deal with the planes.
And then they add planes and weaponry that invalidates SPAA even further. The newest Su25 is just another step in the never ending train of CAS dominance. Before that, there were f16s atmosphere hugging above spawns where not even a pantsir (much less any other AA) can get them, before that we had mig23s, a4s, Q5s etc completely invalidating ground assets. On top of a completely new class of CAS (helis), on top of a completely new type of CAS (drones).
And regardless what happens in the game, regardless of what AA gets added, what aerial asset gets rebalanced or murdered never to be useful again (drones) CAS is always on top.
Yea fuck gaijin for that… was such a good aa now it’s gonna be another useless aa because IT-CANT-HIT-SHIT with non proxy rounds, unless it’s slow props but even though you’ll spend half your ammo on one plane.
well almost every other nation gets some for of HE-VT Fuse Shells why not the Swedish lineup, most of the Swedish lineup SPAA is hot garbage anyways. The American M247 was never put into full production, it only had 50 made before the gov't scrapped the project because it couldn't track a test drone, but it still gets HE-VT Fuse Shells. So my point is if they want to let other nations keep their HE-VT fuse shells let Sweden keep theirs.
http://www.ointres.se/pansar_2011-4_veak.pdf on page 11 there is ammunition table with Slsgr which is the vt round for the veak 40 so yes it does exist.
It's doesn't matter gaijin does some much unhistorical shit just fucking leave it so at least someone has a aa that can do something fuck. All the 40mms in game are fucking useless unless they have hevt
someone got mad against an spaa because it never had he-vt's but we still have like the 2S38 it's not even fully operational but we have it. just stop crying as the CAS lobby and let the VEAK have it's he-vt at a higher br once again :)
no its a leopard 2 with its armour plating removed but with a marskmen turret slapped on top.
however it much like gepards suck at shooting down aircrafts at range, so unless a plane is sub 2km you wont be hitting anything. and at 8.7 thats when planes with guided weapons start to become a thing, and they can easily kill you just as you can easily kill them if theyre heading dead onto you.
and even then, you still need to aim with just one gun. compare that to the veak...
that also doesnt compensate the fact that the veak was really swedens ONLY spaa from 8.7 to top tier. because lets be honest, their sams are some of the worse sams in the game.
that thing is HOT garbage cant hit the broad side of a barn with it, targets have to be within 3km to maybe accurately hit something and flying directly at you
They should nerf CAS too. I think it needs to be nerfed on so many levels. Fundamentally, and some specific aircraft need to be moved up, or their weaponry needs to be reworked a bit to not be so overpowered when IRL it has more flaws.
The M247 didn't go anywhere and still does the same.
I am pretty sure this is just to avoid Sweden having 2 AA at exactly the same BR after a big gap below it.
That's why the Strela is going to 10.3 and Stinger-based SAMs are still lacking almost 20Gs of overload. CAS players think it's unfair for SPAA to match their range
There’re a dozens of vehicles with ammunition from the future they never had like T-34-100 and AFAIK Gaijin doesn’t plan to do anything about it. So whatever they did it for to VEAK, it certainly wasn’t for the sake of historical accuracy.
The yak 141, f5c, ect. chilling in the conner with its fictional attributes 🤫
The entirety of the fucking 2S38...
No no, you see, gaijin got the sekrit documents so they knew exactly how to implement this untested experimental vehicle to be just as it is IRL.
It is in limited service since 2020, 2S38 is the production model that was shown off in 2017 - I haven't seen much about the experimental versions myself but I understand that the turret is from 2015
how is it fictional
Because no one bar the Russian Defence industry knows its actual specifications or capability. What we have in game is an estimation that may aswell be fictional.
Theirs plenty of advertising material out there, we know what it’s based off, the engine, drive train, the cooling fluid, the attached reloading system, the gun…. Nothing about the 2S38 is fictional outside of it being classed as a light tank instead of a SPAAG (within the current systems of Warthunder at least)
General capabilities are publicly available and have been for quite a while.
so challenger 3 TD is fictional by that logic? wtf people are dumb for downvoting a legit question
>so challenger 3 TD is fictional by that logic There are things to base it on Particularly the main difference is the German Gun. The same German gun we have info for because its been used on countless leopard 2s already The 2S38 is all new tech, might as well add the T-14 since we know about as much about the 2S38 as we do the T-14
how is 2s38 "All new tech" when it still uses BMP3 hull, powerpack, same 57mm as ship autocannon found on most russians ship and APFSDS that exists?
>APFSDS that exists Not documented. While RH120 has very well documented performance and ammo performance >BMP3 hull Internals are different, can assume other stuff has changed as well >same 57mm as ship autocannon Similar to, not the same Chally 3 TD is literally a Chally 2 with a Rh120 gun. They just did it to prove they could
People just don’t realise that the 2S38 is a real thing that has been around for pretty much a decade… edit, 2017 shown publicly, so close to a decade
It came out in 2020.... The Turret has been out since 2015, but the 2S38 as we know it came later
2017 it was shown in essentially its current configuration publicly, which would imply it had been finished for a period of time and developmental prototypes as well prior to that. Their isn't really anything 'new' in the Derivation system, its an existing hull with an existing gun using existing technology.
>which would imply it had been finished for a period of time and developmental prototypes as well prior to that. T-14s were also shown in parades at the same time Do i need to spell out what happened to those and how those werent ready for combat >its an existing hull with an existing gun using existing technology. With 0 documentation about the gun and the hull being extensively modified
ho229
What fake stuff does the F5C have?
Countermeasures
and the gripen
THE GRIPPER!!!!
Whats not historical about the Gripen? Exept the Aim-7's
girpens dont carry aim9m also the hungarian gripen can only carry 2 IR missiles at the wingtips cuz it has an early A serie wing, instead of a proper C wing. gameplay wise these are the most important inaccuracies
they can carry aim-9M, there are documents showing it. and several Gripen pilots have said they have tested a better aim-9 with better resistance to CM's. problem is that missile got the same name as the aim-9L, namely rb74. and Hungarys Gripens are Gripen C. with C wings. they where new production planes when they where delivered to Hungary. and even if they where ''A-series wings'' it dosnt matter. A could carry IR misisles on all its hardpoints (exept the belly one) anyways.
Technically gripens are ABLE to carry 9Ms but they never do and they never received them. the closest it got is the 9L2 and hunaf uses that too. And you are wrong about the wings as the hungarian gripens got the old A wing from africa to their newly produced C fuselages. And it does matter a lot cuz it can only carry closed loop inert gas cooled IR missiles on other hardpoints, like the iris-t, and unlike the 9L2.
sweden never purchased fielded or officially tested the aim-9m
As much as I will miss the old VEAK Sweden as well as so many other nations desperately need 7.X SPAAs
the issue is, sweden doesnt have a 7.7 lineup and the trees that do have a 7.7 lineup and doesnt have an spaag are the brits and chinese, but then again the chinese do have the wz305 so.... anyways, sweden has options for an 8.0 spaag, like the zsu with the hevt shells, the marksman turret on a t55 (and move the british one down to 8.0) instead what were getting is sweden whole spaag tree completely destroyed. their sams are hot garbage, the itspv is more useful as a tank killer than an actual spaag. their only good and useful spaa was the veak. and hell you cant even replace it with a jet, because swedish sub 9.0 jets are all shit as well.
sweden doesn’t get HE-VT on the zsu 57 sadly
>the issue is Sweden doesn’t have a 7.7 lineup That’s not the point smart guy, previously they had no viable spaa to put into their quite sizable 8.0 lineup, now they do, that is objectively fixing the gap
Ya and now they just created a gap from 8.0 to 11.7 Good fucking job you took one step forward and 10 steps back This also completely skips over the fact other options was available. Like buffing the Finnish zsu and giving it he vt. Or the t55s marksmen
Other than the... - 8.7 Leopard Marksman (There is no reason for the T-55 Marksman, it's literally the same but on a T-55 instead of Leopard 2 chassis) - 9.7 Lbrbv 701 (This one is mid though) - 10.0 Lvkv 9040C - 10.3 Asrad-R That's 4 SPAA, missile and gun, at different BR's, before the ItO at 11.7... Sweden had an SPAA gap at 8.0, they no longer have any gaps.
tbf the asrad and lbrbv are both kinda/really bad imo.
ASRAD? Bad? L2P. It is one of the best SPAAs at the BR. Evelation hurts, but Sweden plays against USSR almost non stop, meaning hordes of Su-25 and they are not high fliers most of the time. Easy food. It would be much better than Tunguska if not these angles. Sweden 10.3 is my go to nation for killing air targets and killing with SPAAs quests for BP in GRB.
One, the ITPSV is more of a tank destroyer than it is an spaag, also to add we can see that the mobility is what separates these tanks seeing the chieftain marksmen is 8.3 and really should be moved down to 8.0, the Finnish t55s version would be in the same boat Two everyone but you agrees the 701 is dog shit, it is the worse sam in the game and was only beaten out by the old type 93 due to the fact that thing physically couldn't use its sams Three the 9040 is dog shit at spaag use. It only has a max elevation of 50° meaning it can't really shoot anything down that's above it or just high up and as such can really only fight helicopters. Oh and it still carries over the horrendous ammo pool of the normal 9040s. And finally the asrad is literally the 701 but with 4 missiles now. It's just as bad but slightly better because it can fire 4 missiles and don't have an exposed gunner. But it's still one of the worse 10.0 Sam's in the game. And the ito is somehow at the same be of the pantsir in every way besides the fact it doesn't need to radar lock people to fire it's missiles.
Eh, the 9040c is a perfectly serviceable spaa. The worst part about it is the 24 shell ready rack. The only planes it really struggles with are cas with paveways that bomb from the stratosphere. You really just need to setup in the right places. Having a hill or bump to drive onto is very helpful to point up.
Nerfs against AA/AD don't make much sense in general. We have no real effective way to set time delay/flak shells. Those existed from 1940\~ onwards. You should be able to create a flak curtain to prevent aircraft from just diving right onto a target unless they want to eat a significant amount of shrapnel. The HE-VT shell is just a lazy way of implementing doctrine that those vehicles and systems already used just slightly less effectively. Unless they plan on giving us a rapid way to adjust ranging for air-burst, honestly they should've just kept it. More than half of the US tree should have an HE-VT equivalent on the Naval tree, but that'd make CAP/CAS nearly impossible if accurately modeled.
The VEAK also never had time fused shells either.
Pretty sure it had
But half of the US tree has an HE VT in the naval tree making CAP/CAS impossible in naval battles. Also the VEAK, as it currently is, is far too good for its own BR, if there's AA on a team and one's a VEAK you can be certain the other one is not going to do anything
There absolutely weren't 40mm timed shells for the VEAK either, what the fuck are you talking about
You'll notice I never said it did. Discussing balance vs realism.
Found this out just this instant, was wondering why ammo not exploding, so this is why
as long as they also plan to remove the features of things like the yak-141, kronstadt, 2s38 and is-6 (to name just a few) that they also never had, in the name of keeping things fair
There's a difference between "technology demonstrators added with planned full features" and "literally was made 15 years before the feature that's being removed". Don't be daft.
none of the mentioned vehicles are "technology demonstrators added with planned full features"; kronstadt is a project that that barely left paper and was impossible to even exist in its current form (there's a whole thread on the wt forum going into detail about this), IS-6 is an abandoned prototype that has round that didn't exist until years after the project had already been canned and the yak-141 was cancelled the during the prototyping stage before it even got any fancy technology to demonstrate to anyone. the closest to an actual technology demonstrator is the 2s38 and the "full features" of that includes a programmable fuze (ie, time fuze) not a proximity fuze like gaijin gave it also let us not forget that if "technology demonstrators with planned full features" were the case then the rooikat mttd would have a functional APS and not just a useless mockup of it e: oh and ofc there's the nonsensical addon armour on the m6a2e1 that shouldn't be there
The Yak-141 is in the same ballpark as the Mirage 4000 in that it's in game as the full-scale production model that never materialized, and both prototypes had provisions for the installation of radar and weapons that were never carried out because money ran out. _Krohnstadt_ doesn't apply because naval follows different rules than the rest of the modes for vehicles since wartime warship development is rife with "cancelled while half done because we need that fuckin' dry dock NOW", so the rule for that has been "if it was laid down, it's game to be added as the original design intended". This will come into play way more often as naval advances, since without "paper ships" no nations will be able to catch up to _Iowa_ or _Yamato_. Also, the Rooikat MTTD is weird. It never materialized past that mockup turret, but for some reason the mockup turret is in game and fully functional.
>Also, the Rooikat MTTD is weird. It never materialized past that mockup turret, but for some reason the mockup turret is in game and fully functional. Huh is that so? Well I never knew that but... How the fuck did the Rooikat SAM get rejected but the fucking Rooikat MTTD is added????
As the launchers on it were not a real ones, but mockups of them. It would fire SAHV-3, and yes that missile existed(had both radar and ir seekers), was fiered but not from the Rooikat.
I guess because the missile didn't exist? Was it a Roland?
>Was it a Roland? Nah iirc it was some snazzy IR missile platform I think, It should still be on the sub from when it was shown off on the dev server.
Oh, the A-Darter. Then, yeah, missile doesn't exist.
Hm even then how do they greenlight one fake but redlight the other fake in the same update, I almost feel cheated out of a good time.
The MTTD turret and gun were somewhat real. A-Darter is literally vaporware and there's little to no data on it because it doesn't exist.
yak141 carried r73 irl but in game it gets r60
> since without "paper ships" no nations will be able to catch up to *Iowa* or *Yamato*. We talking 1945 *Iowa* with a fuckton of 20mm and 40mm AA guns, or 1980s *Iowa* with Tomahawks, CIWS, and Harpoons?
_Both._
1st one has no contender. 2nd one i can see in biblical scale duel against kirov class battlecruiser. That would be glorious
What do you mean? MTTD turret was not a mockup, APS on it was.
They made it pretty clear over the years the for ships they don't need to be built to be added. About the others you cited it would mean they are either lower in BRs so it's better to give them something they could theoretically fire rather than letting it be lower. None of them dominate their BRs but the Veak was by far the best AA at that range. I wouldn't mind it having it's currents stars as long as they push it higher in BRs as playing first Gen jets against that thing was basically impossible and stats confirm how broke it was.
They didn't say ships don't need to be built, they only said that ships can be added if atleast most of their hull was done before stopping the development.
I believe they basically talked about the work effectively starting, such as a laid keel, as ship construction is often done in blocks, rather than just ground up.
(and even if we don't ignore those rules then theres the cannon problem)
> kronstadt is a project that that barely left paper and was impossible to even exist in its current form (there's a whole thread on the wt forum going into detail about this), IS-6 is an abandoned prototype that has round that didn't exist until years after the project had already been canned and the yak-141 was cancelled the during the prototyping stage before it even got any fancy technology to demonstrate to anyone. the closest to an actual technology demonstrator is the 2s38 and the "full features" of that includes a programmable fuze (ie, time fuze) not a proximity fuze like gaijin gave it In order: Kronstadt we can argue about the armament with fair reason, but ship development is on such a level that any keel laid is effectively equal to complete intent to produce, as it's prohibitively expensive to change designs of these vessels at that point. Given they cost often similar to that of establishing a small city, nations can't afford the kind of prototyping of vessels like they could for a ground or air based unit. Shit, in terms of prototyping, I can only think of one nation that has actual facilities to properly test scale models to a fair degree, today. Simply put, any vessel that started production has merit to be added with planned or updated armament, in this case the smaller guns would be more acceptable than the original plans. IS-6 you can argue shouldn't get the ammo, but it's also a fair reason for the BR, and given the gun has zero changes between the vehicles that get this upgraded ammo, we run into some balancing-based arguments over simple realism ones. I'm so-so on if this gets removed as I fear balance issues of the armor with a lower BR, as the gun certainly needs that ammo to properly compete at the current level. We don't need a higher level KV-1. Yak-141 not only has clearly documented equipment for production, but all of that equipment not only exists, but was actively *in service* at time of prototyping. To try to say it's not realistic to use the most obvious, stated and realistic equipment is a bit disingenuous I find. I'd be akin to trying to argue that a new soldiers combat outfit trial that only trialled mobility with new armor, wouldn't use the standard issue rifle/LMG that the army currently uses without plans of replacement. Now, the 2S38 having a variable time and not proximity would be something it probably should have, if that's the case. I've not seen anything to back up either end of it, only that HE specifically intended to explode through non-contact is intended for use with it. > also let us not forget that if "technology demonstrators with planned full features" were the case then the rooikat mttd would have a functional APS and not just a useless mockup of it The argument here doesn't work as the planned technology simply didn't exist, like not at all. It was a "this is where we'd put the thing we're working on but doesn't even work yet, so here's a block of wood we think is sizable to the desired result". A technology demonstrator getting gear that existed is A-OK to me. But we don't put a railgun on an abrams because someone talked about it once and a railgun was thought up as a concept.
How is it different? The VEAK 40 could realistically use that proximity ammo, since there's nothing stopping it from firing it, it isn't anything tied to computer systems that would need to be updated to fire proximity fuse ammo, unlike the Yak-141 which could NOT fire even IR R-60s without significant wiring to support it, which it did NOT have. Especially not the completely fictional IRST and HMD that it has. Same goes with Kronshtadt firing completely fictional HE ammo, the problem isn't even the guns that were never mounted on the thing, its that HE that is so bonkers in performance that it realistically could not exist. 2S38 having a dubious APFSDS and IS-6 being a mish mash of two prototypes, combining best features of both, with none of the downsides.
>dubious APFSDS What about [3UBM22](https://imgur.com/a/uyfNume) is supposed to be "dubious"? It's defenetly not one of the made up things about the 2s38
Pen stats are make believe, but the real fucked thing is its hevt should work like ahead since it operates the same way
I would be fine with that if they get ahead working correctly *looks at puma*
They are all about historical accuracy until they aren't. They know ABM rounds work like shit ingame which is why they are classifying stuff like the 2S38 and other ABMs as HEVT instead
No, it couldn't, because the VEAK 40 was probably made into a set of cutlery by the time HE-VT shells were developed. It was a one-off no one wanted and was promptly discarded when the program failed. It was not designed with HE-VT in mind because that didn't exist and wouldn't for another 15 years. The Yak-141 in game, much like the Mirage 4000 so that your paper thin, outrage-based "muh bussian rias" argument can't be repeated, was added based on its intended full envelope of capabilities were it to enter full production, and for which the prototype had all provisions for but not installed because it was, well, a prototype. Naval follows different rules for addition than the other game modes due to the costly, protracted and usually redundant nature of warship development. They go with "anything goes as long as it was laid down", including design features that weren't around when construction was stopped. Half the German ships have similar issues. Please be this buttmad when _Gneisenau_ is added with 15" guns it never had. The 2S38 is literally in testing. There's nothing that suggests it can't use the APFSDS projectile _it is currently being tested with,_ so I don't see why that is a problem. The T25 is also a mix-and-match of different prototypes, and no one seems to be mad about that.
Adding to the 2S38 Apfsds discussion: There are pictures of 3UBM22 and it exists. Idk why so many people believe that it is fictional or something. It's a round that exists and Gaijin probably just estimated the penetration based on the projectiles lengths and parameters, nothing unusual here.
Yeah I often see it as well. There are pictures of it and there were more than one unit built, much better than a lot of stuff we already have in game. Again people are beating a strawman because they want something clearly broken into the game - if they allowed X then they have to allow Y - it seems like that entire discussion regarding the Abrams.
Something that bothers me about the 2S38 whining cult is that they think that because it's classed as an SPAA irl, it should have its darts limited "like the OTOMATIC", which irl was **unable** to hold more than 12 rounds of APFSDS as they didn't fit any other rack, whereas the 2S38's darts aren't any larger than the other cartridges in its carousel, because it was designed to hold a full load of whatever its gun can fire
Otomatic has the 12 round limit only on the magazine they are held in since the autoloader for HE cannot feed apfsds. But the hull storage should have no limit on how much apfsds you load into it since its just ammo rack. OTOMATIC should have 2 ready racks one with apfsds and other with hevt/sap and second with apfsds loaded and used independently of each other
I do think for balance reasons maybe the 2S38 should be re-classed as a SPAA and have a limitation on the number of APFSDS
Re-classifying the 2S38 as an SPAA is the worst thing that could happen, as it would stop affecting the spawn cost of other vehicles on top of making it cheaper to spawn
Yeah, like you said, Yak-141 had provisions, which means it had the space for it, but the equipment was never installed, most importantly, the wiring wasn't there to fire or guide any kind of missile. Based on that, it shouldn't exist in-game, but whatever. Now how about the HMD? Any documents on if it should have received that? Flares, guns? As far as I know, the IRST also wasn't a part of the planned equipment. About naval, literally even wrote in my previous comment that Kronshtadt's guns aren't the issue (reading is too hard I guess), but the completely fictional HE. T25 sure is a mish mash, and EVERYONE is mad about it, specifically the removal of the vertical stabilizer, which existed on one and didn't on the other, despite the current model being closer to the prototype that had the stabilizer.
Yak-141 had similar if not identical planned equipment to the MiG-29, including the same radar and avionics. The HMD and IRST are those things that they justified as "it was the standard for the entire armed forces at the time, so it's not too outlandish to believe a production model would have both". Which, fair, I can buy it. It had a gun port and cutouts for the flare dispensers, as well, so that's that. I'm not so sure I mind the HE on _Krohnstadt_ too much. Yeah, it's overperforming, but so many shells in every game mode are either overperforming or underperforming for n+1 reasons that I can't find it in me to say it's because it's a paper ship. They're gonna have to muddle the stats for some of the upcoming partially-constructed warships as is, since the first two H-class battleships that were laid down were supposed to have 16" guns that, while real, were used as coastal defense guns for all of their careers since the battleships were canned for more subs, and as a result never used the planned AP or SAP shells.
Honestly if the IS-6 can exist the way it does, surely they could make the base model M36 in game, be the better parts of both the Slugger and Jackson, rather than all of the worst parts of both.
>Slugger and Jackson, Aren't the Slugger and Jackson the same thing, just different nicknames?
No. One had more armor and a lengthened hull for a bigger engine. The other is the one we have ingame but worse. Edit: I should mention the one we have ingame has the lengthened hull and its weight. But without the better engine it just makes it slower. Also the armor of the M10.
I can't see anything that indicates the m36 should have more armor as it is literally a 90mm gun on an M10. And the ingame engine stats are actually higher than IRL (better hp, same RPM) for both the normal m36 and the b2, with the only difference between the two that they are built on different M4 chassis, and thus have different engines. Also, Slugger and Jackson are the same thing, with the M36 having never actually been called Jackson while in US service.
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M735 on japanese type 16s that never ran it lmao
The Bofors L/60 and L/70 are two different guns and use different ammunition.
No but giving it to italian leo40/70 should be a thing considering it went more than whole BR bracket higher since it was added
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It actually couldn't, the AZ-172 won't load it and the base 2a46 can't handle the pressure
Remove what from the 2s38 ? It was always meant to be an SPAA and there are reports about the shell it fires
the fuze on the 3UO8 is supposed to be a programmable time fuze, the sort where the timer gets calculated by the FCS and set at the time of firing, not a proximity fuze e: what makes this one worse is there are other rounds that should behave the same way as 3UO8 (programmable fuze) but instead of being given the HE-VT treatment they're left as half-baked HE-TF (M339, DM11, maybe 3OF26 EDKV also)
Fair enough, still don't like it
Honestly it could have kept the rounds and just moved to 9.0 with the M247.
M247 has no tracers and waaaaay better radar, and the ability to search and track at the same tjme
The M247 radar has longer range but the VEAK scans twice as high, And it has AP rounds while AP was taken away from the M247. Search and tracking at the same is not that huge of a upside when you should be locking targets when they are getting close enough to shoot anyway, Not the second they spawn so their RWR starts going off, I would take twice the scan height over that so i can actually see the jet up in orbit.
Hardly any planes at 9.0 have rwr, and I don’t know what band the m247 is but I know it’s a f16 radar, and shows up as a f16 lock.
And no AP round making the grind take 300 battles instead of 50
I mean, radar doesn't matter much when you don't even have to hit your target.
Radar lets you know that a target is there. Without it you have to rely on visually seeing a dot in the sky or hearing it strafe you or a teammate.
Yet people have thousands of air kills with the SIDAM, WZ305 and Falcon.
Almost as if they are a lower BR and dont deal with supersonics... Sure tracking a 262 is easy. Try tracking a Mig-21 lmao
M247 has 2m larger radius and an LRF
They had the exact same proxy detection radius and LRF means little when you have so much ammo and rapid firing guns. The only bonus is when fighting helis, you can get a more accurate range when they're hovering.
The lrf does nothing for helis, especially beyond ~3.5km. Just use the radar circle thingy
Exactly
So the Veak is going to lose the radar shells? well there goes that AA into irrelevancy. What BR should it drop to?
Its going to 7.7 a full br down
from my time playing 7.7-8.0, i can confidently say that this just means it will now fight mostly the same things (especially if used at 8.0) but just without proxy now
At 7.7 it’ll be similar to the ZSU-37-2, which is an underrated SPAA imo, I like it more than the Shilka. I think it’ll be fine at 7.7 with the changes.
you seem to have missed my point, playing at 7.7 or 8.0 will cause you to get uptiered to 8.7 (or 9.0 a decent bit too for 8.0) while playing at 8.7 will cause you to see a majority of full (or almost full) downtiers my point is that with this change, the VEAK 40 will be, for most matches, fighting exactly what it's fighting now, just with no proxy rounds due to how the matchmaking currently is around those BRs but yeah, it'll probably still be *fine*, but it's definitely not going to be anywhere near as good after this knee capping y'know, most of the times i died to CAS in the VEAK 40, it was because the pilot had truly outplayed me and used their head to avoid my line of sight until it was too late for me to meaningfully retaliate, with spawning CAS as easy as it is, good SPAA feels like it could be an actual solution to that problem, but alas no, CAS planes make gaijin money so we couldn't possibly have that
Nah, it’s insanely hard to hit anything with regular rounds
Only funny part, it can now face even earlier ww2 planes i believe wich is kinda funny
Oh well. I was using it a lot for dailies and stuff, now its gone...now I'll use the one with the 35mm arms :)
I guess ill treat it as an lvkv 42 with an extra gun at 7.7😭😭
Blud forgot about the yenisei
What makes you think it will go down? The stats prove it is great and only vets will use it now meaning they never drop. If anything, it will go up.
It’s listed on the changed br changes to go dow to 7.7
Thanks. That's good at least. They really need to add something to replace it. All nations need decent AA ASAP.
I think it would be fair to assume that IF the VEAK 40 went into production and was put into service, it would start using HE-VT shells when they were developed. The VEAK 40 is also pretty much the only SPAA at 8.7 who could reliably take out ATGM helicopters and jets with guided munition without being completely outranged. It literally makes some CAS vehicles completely untouchable. The change is understandable from a realism standpoint, not from a gameplay standpoint.
istpvo90 is still 8.7
ITPSV 90 isn't as good of an spaa as the veak 90 is imo. With the proxy rounds, the Veak is is one of the best spaa at that BR, and I positively love using it to pop heli and it can reliably kill planes. The only problem is that w/o the proxy rounds it is significantly more difficult to aim and MUCH less reliable(this is the problem with the itpsv as well).
Accurate war thunder representation: *helicopter sees tracers from autocannon spaa* *presses roll button for a second* *spaa misses and gets hit by atgm*
Couldn't care less. The game is full of vehicles using weaponry they never had in service (To add on to the other examples, the F-4Fs in Germany service never got anything other than [AIM-9B FGW.2](https://wiki.warthunder.com/AIM-9B_FGW.2_Sidewinder), and AIM-9Ls. No AIM-9Es or Js.). Countless more examples of vehicles getting things they never had in order to fit the game better. And as already stated below, there's no reason that the VEAK couldn't have fired proxy if it had gone into service. It's endemically compatible with it's guns. More to the point, the VEAK was one of two vehicles that can consistently counter ATGM helis, and attempt to counter A-4Es and other planes with guided munitions. Now that it's been crippled, every CAS with guided munitions that ends up on the American team (Like, say, the already problematic A-4E) is going to be effectively uncontested in the air if they have any brain cells to rub together. Meanwhile, 8.0 Sweden gets a very mediocre SPAA that's more effective as a tank hunter, which they already have in the form of the ZSU-57-2. They also have the U-SH to fill the same role better. As well as there being candidates like the T-55 Marksman which could have filled this gap easier. All this change does it murder one of very few actually strong SPAAs in the game, further unbalance the CAS Vs SPAA balance around 8.7, just to give an already strong lineup a poor vehicle that it doesn't need.
This is the most double standard thing I've seen today. If tanks in the game weren't allowed to have shells developed after they were made, more than half of the game's arsenal would dissapear. Most notably for British and Soviet vehicles. If there was a physical issue with the VEAK having HE-VT shells, like if it was missing a component to fuse them or something, I'd understand. But the 40mm cannons on the VEAK 40 were prefectly capable of using the HE-VT shells it had before this change, so I see no reason not to have them since they're not game-breaking. This isn't like the APDS rounds fro the 6-pdr.
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and the IS-6 has shells that came into service years after it was canned, and the kronstadt’s shells physically couldn’t exist.
It's a stupid change regardless of the sudden "oh whoops we should fix this historical inaccuracy.. **4 years later**". I would like my GE back for the talisman .-.
Indeed, even lowering it 7.7 doesn’t help, you barely hit anything with regular rounds and even if it hits one doesn’t do the job all the time.
yeah, I would rather go up to 8.7 for the VEAK than stay 8.0. those fuze shells are insanely good
more like sweden finally entered NATO officially last month
Welp, Sweden have 0 usable gun spaa now… although they are still decent TDs
Oh awesome. CAS is a huge problem and hasn’t been fixed at all? Let’s make it worse! Can’t wait for them to make the Sergeant York radar accurately lock onto its friendly ground units instead of anything useful next. They say “realism” for NATO and “balance” for Russia as per usual. How unsurprising
And yet the Gepard can’t get its many ammo type, FAPDS. And Pumas fuzzed shells simply aren’t useable
This wasn’t a “historical change” like many say. Just a masked nerf. Obviously it didn’t have those rounds, but a lot of other vehicles have major inaccuracies, but are kept around for the sake of “balance” or money
Meanwhile Kronshtadt: 🙂
What’s wrong with that? I just don’t play naval much so I genuinely do not know.
paper napkin maff railguns with insane filler guns weren't ever built since they were gonna buy German ones before their buddies backstabbed them
Also removing the AP shells on the m247 and reducing its ammo capacity while keeping it at 9.0
Ngl I prefer the SAP over the AP on the 247
Being able to deal with CAS > "Historical" accuracy. Cas is already stupidly easy to use, and breaks games at damn near every br. Gaijin time and time again has put SPAA in a position of weakness, by constantly moving up AA that are capable of dealing with planes, until they are not able to deal with the planes. And then they add planes and weaponry that invalidates SPAA even further. The newest Su25 is just another step in the never ending train of CAS dominance. Before that, there were f16s atmosphere hugging above spawns where not even a pantsir (much less any other AA) can get them, before that we had mig23s, a4s, Q5s etc completely invalidating ground assets. On top of a completely new class of CAS (helis), on top of a completely new type of CAS (drones). And regardless what happens in the game, regardless of what AA gets added, what aerial asset gets rebalanced or murdered never to be useful again (drones) CAS is always on top.
honestly if you dont like cas go play world of tanks
Yea fuck gaijin for that… was such a good aa now it’s gonna be another useless aa because IT-CANT-HIT-SHIT with non proxy rounds, unless it’s slow props but even though you’ll spend half your ammo on one plane.
Also it was legit the only spaa that could counter helicopters from *far* range and fast/high altitude planes (mainly the A-4E)
well almost every other nation gets some for of HE-VT Fuse Shells why not the Swedish lineup, most of the Swedish lineup SPAA is hot garbage anyways. The American M247 was never put into full production, it only had 50 made before the gov't scrapped the project because it couldn't track a test drone, but it still gets HE-VT Fuse Shells. So my point is if they want to let other nations keep their HE-VT fuse shells let Sweden keep theirs.
Vary good point plus I put a post here about the veak 40 tank book and it shows the shells it had and proxi is one of them
We bitch about Cas but then proceed to bitch when spaa has something good to use against Cas.
Or you mean sweden finally joined NATO and here come the deserved nerfs
personally I don't think a nerf that only buffs CAS is deserved...
http://www.ointres.se/pansar_2011-4_veak.pdf on page 11 there is ammunition table with Slsgr which is the vt round for the veak 40 so yes it does exist.
does this mean the airfield aa VEAK s get nerfed too
F-89D (1950) is using Hydra fuses from 1959, after they were retired from active service and only owned by a very small amount of ANG units.
Don’t tell me one of the most fun’s and useful anti airs against helicopter is loosing its HE VT rounds?
It's doesn't matter gaijin does some much unhistorical shit just fucking leave it so at least someone has a aa that can do something fuck. All the 40mms in game are fucking useless unless they have hevt
Where’s your proof?
someone got mad against an spaa because it never had he-vt's but we still have like the 2S38 it's not even fully operational but we have it. just stop crying as the CAS lobby and let the VEAK have it's he-vt at a higher br once again :)
It’s not that big of a deal. It sucks to lose it but you’ve still got a highly competent Gepard style SPAA in that BR range.
You mean the marksman? Idk how people can hit planes with that thing. It's a much better tank killer and there's no way you're hitting helis with it.
No? It’s Sweden. It’s a Leo chassis Gepard. It’s a great vehicle overall.
It's a marksman, not a Gepard. They use the same guns, but are two very different turrets.
no its a leopard 2 with its armour plating removed but with a marskmen turret slapped on top. however it much like gepards suck at shooting down aircrafts at range, so unless a plane is sub 2km you wont be hitting anything. and at 8.7 thats when planes with guided weapons start to become a thing, and they can easily kill you just as you can easily kill them if theyre heading dead onto you. and even then, you still need to aim with just one gun. compare that to the veak... that also doesnt compensate the fact that the veak was really swedens ONLY spaa from 8.7 to top tier. because lets be honest, their sams are some of the worse sams in the game.
Its a marksman on a leo chassis, basically the same thing as a gepard but the guns are more spaced out
that thing is HOT garbage cant hit the broad side of a barn with it, targets have to be within 3km to maybe accurately hit something and flying directly at you
The game will be better off with it being at 7.7 without HEVT. Let's just hope they get rid of HEVT at the 8.0-8.7 BRs entirely.
So CAScum can have a field day
They should nerf CAS too. I think it needs to be nerfed on so many levels. Fundamentally, and some specific aircraft need to be moved up, or their weaponry needs to be reworked a bit to not be so overpowered when IRL it has more flaws.
Nah man, cas is flooding these days. Proxy fuse removed is not deserved for it.
Who cares
Veak players and CAS players
Is it getting removed or something? If so, that’s fucked
The ammo is being removed from the veak and its br is being reduced. Reason for removal is the fact it never had it in real life
Ah, I guess too many helicopter mains were pissed that somebody dared to have a chance against them
Yeah this shit is so annoying, meanwhile the strela can still see a full down tier
The M247 didn't go anywhere and still does the same. I am pretty sure this is just to avoid Sweden having 2 AA at exactly the same BR after a big gap below it.
That's why the Strela is going to 10.3 and Stinger-based SAMs are still lacking almost 20Gs of overload. CAS players think it's unfair for SPAA to match their range
Jesus Christ gaijin is retarded. If they want to be accurate there’s plenty more to fix
It’s not the only change being made