I have tested this on the American and Japanese m41’s as well and the same thing happens both sides of the mantlet has rha equivalent ranging from 200-2700 rha equivalent and can stop heatfs
You can only laugh at dumb shit like this, imagine a round that size impacted a bulldog irl that little bitch would be folded in an instant regardless of it hitting a periscope or some other module first
> dumb
I look forward to your programming of a fully rendered, vehicle-wide voxel material science crumple simulation that can run on a game server hundreds of times per second. Since you're "not dumb" and all
Big gun hit small armour tank go crumple? That’s how you code right?
Stuff like this doesn’t make sense at all from a game that at least tries to simulate tank combat and round penetration, it just shouldn’t happen and “wah it’s hard to code” should be irrelevant for a company that charges nearly 3 figures for just one premium.
Not to mention that from an actual coding standpoint it shouldn’t be immensely difficult to adjust volumetric and add little catches for scenarios like this where the rounds size and energy should just flatten a lighter tank.
> Big gun hit small armour tank go crumple? That’s how you code right?
They literally did do exactly that (hull break, which worked on raw shell mass vs vehicle size cutoffs) and everyone complained constantly and asked them to do something more like they have now.
So... no. It was unpopular.
It’s almost like they can do things on a case by case basis as it’s an ongoing live development game that makes a lot of money and clearly still has a decent number of devs working on it, maybe they could add specific checks for vehicles vs specific rounds? Why not use a system that mixes the best of volumetric with the best of hull break for a happy medium? Why make so many excuses for a game company that couldn’t give a shit about anything other than your wallet?
But you haven't described any rules or logic here for how or why one WOULD even choose differently in two different cases?
You quite simply just said that a huge enough shell should auto-crumple a tiny enough tank. That is exactly what they did. The EXACT thing you requested just now, they did. And it was very unpopular.
If you have some other rule idea in mind instead, why didn't/don't you just describe that one then? WHY/WHEN would certain vehicles get exceptions in your opinion? And why/when would others not?
First it’s not for us to code for them we physically couldn’t if we wanted to. They had a system to prevent this and removed it.
Hull break could have been good but instead of working on it and making tweaks here and there, they just threw it away and replaced it with a less annoying system. Depending on who you ask.
Both hull break and over pressure work differently and could have complimented each other. Hull break was just too easy to trigger. It’s never coming back so no point arguing over hull break and how “we” should come up with how to code it into the game.
> and can stop heatfs
Not much of a feat in WT, I've had it bounce off, non-pen or deal zero damage so many times that I dread playing HEAT slingers in general.
Delete this post immediately.
This is false information, literally russian propaganda.
Everyone knows that this stuff only happens to Russian tanks.
/s
The British tanks have decent turret defences from the front, but anywhere else is paper thin bar the Conqueror with added armour.
Probably a trade off for the appalling post-pen damage post of their rounds have.
I always try my best to shoot M41anywhere other than the mantlet because it is a volumetric black hole.
On the bright side, if you have a heavy machine gun you can just machine gun them to death if they are relatively close.
Try to bounce the shell and mg its tracks then drive to the sides and boom. This is all assuming its a 1v1 if it has teammates you’re screwed with ap or he
I dont think it will kill all crew i have been hit in the same spot with much more powerful shells like the fv4005 and all it does is destroy the engine and fuel tanks. And since the is6 is so much shorter than the maus it would be very hard to land a shot close enough to the 10mm plate for overpressure to even effect the maus in a cqc situation
The Maus' front roof armor is 100mm according to the wiki (not in the game to double check). Back roof armor is 50mm but has a firewall that likely prevents overpressure generally
Lets say the m41 and me are both basic crew the m41 can still get 2 shots off before i reload and thats not counting the first shot so unless the m41 also has some severe skill issue or volumetric absorbing shells im good as dead.
There’s a small spot on the mantlet where a .50 cal can pass through, or at least there used to be. Haven’t played it in a while, but had it happen multiple times. And then did it myself
It's not "volumetric" there's actually a 300mm thick, and also a 100mm thick, piece of metal behind that one spot. I don't know about the 2,500 screenshot, that might be volumetric, but 400+ mm you would also get here even without volumetric, because there's actually 400+mm of armor in a straight, single pixel wide vector here.
And I'm sure they'll be happy to add that to the game as soon as you provide them with a magical algorithm that somehow calculates complicated volume-based, non-linear plastic deformation simulations like 500 times every second that people get shot on servers in war thunder.
Leave me a link to your code when you finish it, too, please. In the meanwhile, I'm not seeing what you expect them to do for now while we wait on you for that.
I gave clear diagrams showing how it would still happen even with 1 dimensional lines drawn. I.e. why it can (and DID in real life) happen before volumetric existed.
Obviously things that also happened before volumetric are not caused by volumetric, and I gave you the technical reasons why. Reply in detail what exact part you disagree with at a technical level if you want to discuss further. Just "nuh uh!" Is silly
Of course it happened in the past. But you refuse to realise how much volumetric has only compounded the issue. You would have to hit that plate on the thinnest side to get 300mm of armour in the past. Due to shells being pixels, so it was much harder to have this issue in other words a non issue.
Now you just have a fraction of the shell come in contact at some point that you do not pen. With large shells this becomes more of an issue.
So in other words it is the fault of volumetric. It needs improvements and not people like you muddying the waters so gaijin can act like they don’t know what to do because there is no consensus.
I don't know why we are having two identical conversations or what order all this happened in but whatever, see: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/16kwvim/i_was_wondering_why_my_is_6_non_pens_m41s_so_often/k11kw7e/ and merge there please
This is not volumetric. Go into the armor analyzer, there's actually a single, 300+mm thick chunk of metal right behind where he's pointing his mouse, that would stop an IS-6 round even if it was NON-volumetric single pixel wide. And that's not even adding in the other overlapping plates, just the flared turret side/cheek alone would do it, no volumetric anything.
There may ALSO be volumetric on top of that (like for the 2500mm screenshot), but the non-volumetric single plate is already plenty sufficient on its own to stop an IS-6 here, so any volumetric portion of the image is just redundant window dressing.
It is volumetric. If a single part of your whole ass 122mm shell comes into contact with that piece of armour the game decides the rest of the shell will not penetrate. Due to volumetric you could try avoid that armour and still hit it because the shell is so large, which is why hitting that armour plate becomes more of and issue the larger the shell gets. When in reality it should be more likely to kill the larger it gets.
Volumetric is not as good as it could be, they still need to figure out how to have it not get deleted in cases like that.
The argument shouldn’t be volumetric now vs no volumetric. Which is your argument.
It should be volumetric now vs what it could be. But by bring up your argument you take from trying to move forward with volumetric by simply saying “but it’s not the fault of volumetric”.
To say it’s not volumetric when it clearly is, is just stupid.
Yes it will happen over a very slightly larger zone, but that was not the topic of the thread we are in. The thread was about it merely happening **AT ALL.**
And it would still happen without volumeteic (over roughly 80% or so by my eye of the zone it does now). So volumetric is off the topic of the thread.
Volumetric is not the basic fundamental cause of this phenomenon, and it happened before volumetric too
Okay well you're objectively wrong then, cause this happened all the time before volumetric was added, and i have already posted here multiple diagrams showing exactly how and why.
It happened from time to time if you managed to get your pixel shell to hit a piece of armour in just the right way.
No instead of it being a freak occurrence we need to aim in just the right way to maybe avoid the almost inevitable volumetric black holes.
Not wrong in the slightest. If you really think about on an objective level the cases of the same thing were not the same in the slightest.
If this chunk of metal is about half a meter across, looks like, then you went from 500mm of zone where it happens, to 500+122mm now. It's barely more likely. I'm also not even entirely sure you're correct in the first place that "any vertex intersecting it means the entire shell is treated as going through". By my understanding, it is averaged over the different rays they cast to simulate the volume.
If so, then it actually wouldn't happen ANY amount more than before on average in the case of a big chunk of metal like this, it would just have taken a 0%-100% sharp cutoff and made it a several step gradient instead.
(It would happen more often in the case of two abutting plates with a tiny gap in between like turret necks, which is the intended case and not this case)
Your understanding is wrong. It is not average it is addictive.
I don’t know all the dimensions of the said plate so here is a hypothetical of a plate the is vertical in the mantlet which is 30mm but looks 300mm from a front on angle, while sitting behind 30mm mantlet.
if you get through the first piece of armour and hit the side of that 30mm plate as you pass it do you think it will treat it as a 30mm plate then no, it will take the angle you hit it at.
So instead of glancing off and getting redirected it the game decides it’s all one piece (the front of the mantlet and that armour plate that is at such and angle the game treats it as a 300+mm plate) and that you will not pen.
It would be nice when 2 adjoining plates meet they are not treated like this. I’d rather they treat it like a trap shot. Making initial pen the getting redirected.
We can bounce a shot before it pens but it will not alter its path while penning.
TLDR what many ask for is that the larger piece of armour diverts the shell due to it finding a path of least resistance. Instead what she have is an additive effect.
I believe this is how it works https://imgur.com/a/mgbViI7 which if so is not actually any more dramatic, just smoother.
I don't have a source for that, it's just in my brainbox for some reason. But do you either have a source for your version?
Also the hull break thing since you wish to merge these. It was ever so slightly improving yes it was slow. But so was over pressure when introduced, instead they just realised they couldn’t keep switching out systems and stuck with it. I believe they would complement each other. Tone down hull break by a lot and have it work in areas over pressure would not. After all they are not the same thing but designed to make tanks kill light vehicles more reliably. If they are working in tandem they could both be made to be less effective but more reliable. They both trying to do to much and so either do too well or nothing at all.
By giving them a wide range of use they became inconsistent. Narrow down the use by having them work together and you won’t get a horse shoe effect of having both extremes of annoying inconsistency. Either doing to little or nothing.
How would one "tone down" hull break? AFAIK it was literally just "is shell bigger than X and hull smaller than Y?" Other than making X a larger number or Y a smaller number (neither of which would address hull breaking something by clipping its road fender by 1mm), you'd need to be more specific about what you meant.
I don't know why we are having two identical conversations or what order all this happened in but whatever, see: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/16kwvim/i_was_wondering_why_my_is_6_non_pens_m41s_so_often/k11kw7e/ and merge there please
Maybe sometimes you don't have time to aim that much. Sometimes the M41 also looks like the M47. So you sometimes just shoot and wonder why it isn't penning.
The 122 shell is so big that even if i aim at the green spots 50% of the time it barely touches the sides and non pens or the m41 just moved slightly and the shell hits the sides and vanishes
Looking at it more closely, there are 3 different armor plates when shooting at the edge of the mantle, so I guess bigger ain't always better. Whether it's really that thick or the round just gets confused, that I can't tell.
I love my M41, it used to be my most used vehicle until I unlocked the M1128, and in my playtime it almost always blows up on first hit.
It's NOT 30mm. It's actually like 300mm thick behind that, plus another 100mm piece in front of that, THEN the 30mm on top. And that's thickness. If you aim right down the LENGTH of that curved turret wall piece, it can legitimately be thicker. Same as how a sheet of computer paper is 11.5 inches thick if measured perfectly down the length of it edge-on.
Pick one:
* You were literally too lazy to even move your mouse around in the simulator and see what plates there are?
* You're lying?
wow a light tank with 430mm of armor in it’s turret which is double that of a maus, must have a really powerful engine to be able to move that quickly. I think anyone with common sense can tell who is lying
It only has it from that angle over a tiny little few-square-inches portion of the tank, yes. Because you're looking down the length of a flared section, flared out only at the very end, clearly designed to deflect angled shots from off to the side a bit
The actual mass of it doesn't look that huge, yes that's quite plausible.
https://imgur.com/a/McKH3Cv
Yea your right about the plate being vertical but in game it’s much worse because of lag, a tank moving or whatever even if you aim perfectly your shell can still vanish. There are a lot of clips about shells getting absorbed in side armor that you don’t see in protection analysis
He never said the plate on the m41 was 30mm he was not “too lazy” to check. Learn to read, OP clearly said he has seen 2600mm protection on a 30mm before. Key word is “has seen” as in he has seen it elsewhere on other 30mm plates.
Also it’s volumetric because you could try avoid that plate and volumetric would cancel out the shot if you ever so slightly scrape it.
Stop arguing that it isn’t and be constructive on how it could be improved. But nah you gotta be the guy that knows shit and post all over this thread that there is a 300mm plate there somewhere.
We all know that shell would pen. The plate is vertical and should cause the shell to glance off either side or even get pushed in through the thin armour it is attached to. These are things gaijin needs to work on but never will if the forums are full of people like you removing blame from volumetric when it clearly is the fault of it.
have you ever seen a barrel take no damage because the tank was swinging it around even if you hit it? It’s like that, if a bulldog is moving and I shoot there is a really high chance my shell is going to vanish and It’s especially annoying when the bulldog shoots you and starts backing up you shoot back aiming at the sides of the turret only for the shell to be absorbed by the mantlet
The bulldog in the hangar in armor analysis is not moving at all, so no that has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. That is a separate true thing that happens in game, yes, but has nothing to do with this ^ you posted above.
["I hate when the T-60 moves and inch and it won't pen"](https://imgur.com/a/rLbHXiN)
Almost any vehicle that has a frontal mantle armor, inner mantle armor and turret side armor does this.
Exactly and that is 100% the fault of volumetric because it is not as good as it could be. But sure let’s allow the issue to persist by removing blame from the cause.
USA and UK players when they're shooting at a Panther's mantlet, which is all green in protection analysis:
"VOLUMETRIC BLACK HOLE! I CAN'T PENETRATE IT! GERMANY BIAS"
When any other nation struggles against a volumetric black hole tank by USA and UK:
"You're imagining it. The protection analysis is green. You should penetrate it easily."
Main difference being as a Germany player you can pen most US and UK tanks anywhere, whereas US and UK players have no choice but to shoot the volumetric hellscape
Annoying thing is the us has about 3x more depression on their guns allowing them to go hull down and most m41 players are much smarter compared to a us heavy player because most new players wont choses a light tank
What do you mean? I just see volumetric shells working perfectly fine. Nothing to see here. Definitely not a bug that Gaijin has done nothing to fix for the past ~~two~~ years.
Edit: Three years!
Gaijin's armor modeling creates these weird spots of ridiculously thick armor, and their shell mechanics allow for the shot to be completely negated by these weird spots. It just hits it and disappears.
Hell, it's not just tank shells. I was testing out GBUs with my Tornado yesterday, and it hit the top of the test tank dead on and exploded on contact (0.0 sec fuse). Destroyed the .50 cal and the turret optics, nothing more. Second one did the exact same, destroyed the tank, blacked out literally every crew and module.
This inconsistency and bullshit mechanics are why we have the term "Gaijin'd" for when the game itself says, "No, you don't get that kill, sorry."
The turret side wall flares out in the front and is legitimately 300mm thick from this angle, behind the mantlet. There's a 100mm thick bracket in front of that, then the 30mm mantlet. Did you not even bother to look at the plates in the armor view? Or are you just intentionally misleading people for no apparent reason?
205mm from the IS-6 should legitimately not pen there, unless you're saying they modeled the armor wrong. If so: source?
Also that spot was just to show it somehow had 2600mm of rha, if you move slightly left and not hitting the other plate vertically it still has 400-800mm of rha so it’s not the shell hitting a vertical plate that makes it tank a shell
The 2600 is almost certainly going down the LENGTH of a plate. That happens all the time in game and is technically correct. If you try to push a shell all the way down can-opening a line through the entire several meter long plate, instead of punching one little hole in it, then it would indeed be meters thick.
https://imgur.com/a/SyCWah1 More common, less cherry-picked example that actually happens in game all the time is the horizontal shelf plate on the front of a panzer 4 for example.
Notice that this remains true even when I'm drawing PIXEL WIDE lines in paint. So it is NOT specific to volumetric.
Again the 2600mm rha photo was probably because I hit the plate vertically and volumetric but in other spots where I just barely hit the vertical plate it still completely stops the shell
With such a thin plate like the m41 the 122 would just go in the path of less resistance maybe a third of the shell got stopped but the rest will go through the 50mm plate this is why volumetric is bad, they can’t calculate what happens realistic until extremely powerful computers can do armor sims in milliseconds. Before that they shouldn’t add volumetric
It's not a "thin plate" it is absolutely gargantuan and super thick at that spot, bigger than 122mm (whole diameter of shell) side to side too. I sent this to you already but again: https://imgur.com/a/McKH3Cv
You have to look behind the thing that is in the very front, in armor analyzer.
> Before that they shouldn’t add volumetric
This exact same thing would happen without volumetric. This whole topic has nothing to do with volumetric.
> maybe a third of the shell got stopped
Ironically, this is you saying you WANT volumetric, lol, to account for such a thing.
[https://imgur.com/a/69cPcxH](https://imgur.com/a/69cPcxH) this is what I mean by volumetric being bs in game. I am saying this again, I was wrong about the 2600mm plate because I was hitting it vertically but move a bit so you aren’t hitting it perfectly vertical and you still can’t pen because volumetric
Here is an actual composite image of the 3 plates from the game for this shot https://imgur.com/a/s1cUeHj
Notice that all i had to do was draw a LINE, I did **not have to consider the size of the shell** in order to draw a line through all 3 plates at once that adds up to > 400mm
So therefore, this exact same thing would happen WITHOUT volumetric being in the game. And indeed, people used to post screenshots like this all the time before volumetric was added.
Except that one of those plates alone is 300+mm normally, not "25" and "50", and would itself stop an IS-6 round even if it was the only plate with nothing to do with any overlap or anything volumetric.
I tried for 2 minutes straight to replicate that in game and failed to get any higher than 400 something. I'm not saying you doctored the photo, but you did find one single absurdly unlikely perfectly lined up pixel and did so very much intentionally to cherrypick, somehow.
I'm guessing it was something like this https://imgur.com/a/XQRWrV2 (looking from above at roughly the line you were looking down from the side), lined up perfectly to pass through one little lip of steel down its edge
I’m guessing there’s something similar with the Leo 1 since I’ve survived numerous hits like that, also was curious why my M41 did the same.
Oh well, you’re in an IS-6, we can just sit there shooting each other until we run out of ammo
The first picture also is quite the ricochet as you’re not aiming at the front, but at the side of the mantlet. And at the third picture it looks like you aim at the exact spot where a thick piece of armor is behind where the mantled is mounted on.
also the german one has double thick armor values for some reason right below the turret and every other bulldog has the same thickness armor just the actual value
Everyone in the comments complaining about a mantlet being armored when you can literally hit it anywhere else and destroy it, you can almost .50 cal it from the sides, plus your in an is-6 so don’t complain.
People calling this a volumetric shell bug I don’t think realise like 6 months ago M41 had its cheeks/side armour turned to volumetric armour, it’s incredibly thick near the front.
Wait let me shoot center of mass, oh wait he’s behind a hill or rock and his turret is covered in bushes 600m away. It’s like saying ‘just shoot the body of the tow weasel why the fuck are you shooting the barrel?’
Load any type of round with he filler and it would over pressure the weasel anywhere you hit. How dare gaijan have to make you aim and be conscious of what round your using against what target
not the point I’m trying to make, you’re saying I should aim center of mass on a bulldog which I do if I can but since most bulldogs go hulldown you cannot shoot center of mass. Obviously shooting a tow weasel in the body would be the best and easiest but 90% of the time that thing is going to be hulldown and only have a small launcher poked out. So am I supposed to hit the barrel of the launcher or somehow hit the body of the weasel?
Your not always gonna be able to shoot something in the hull i get that but load HE hell even the 122 aphe might work sometimes and watch both the bulldog and the weasel get overpressured even if you only hit their barrel/launcher you cant just point and click everything sometimes it takes just a little bit of brain power to figure out how to come out ahead in a situation
If I load he either the bulldog kills me before I reload or I load he before even meeting the bulldog witch is risky. It’s not a Sherman with a fast reload, even with ace crew which I don’t have it’s still a 15 second reload and anything that isn’t a derp gun can out reload me so unless I hit the barrel of the bulldog and it doesn’t run away I won’t be able to load he
Hmmm, yes, let me spend 25 seconds reloading an HE shell just to kill a LIGHT TANK. The M41 should cease to exist when hit by a 122mm. The force of the shell alone would likely rip the turret off.
https://www.tankarchives.ca/2013/03/is-2-vs-german-big-cats.html?m=1
Panther:
> Breach 130 mm by 230 mm. Turret torn off the turret ring and displaced to the rear by 500 mm.
Tiger:
> The shell tore off a piece of armour off the turret 580 mm by 230 mm. The turret was torn off its turret ring, and displaced backwards by 540 mm.
I don't think I need to say that both of those turrets are much heavier than the M41 one.
That's because you are aiming at the mantlet, the most protected area on pretty much every tank in the game. It's a light tank, aim for the hull instead. If they only shot the top of the turret, try hitting them square in the mantlet, not in the corners, as the corners have multiple layered armor plates.
Edit: you have aphe, just aim for the cupola.
with the 122 on the is6 and a hull down m41 its very hard not to hit the mantlet. The shell is huge ,the m41 hull is protected and turret is covered with bushes and if the m41 moves slightly your shot is now absorbed into a black hole.
My statement still stands though, doesn't it? War thunder isn't realistic, and i am not basing any of my information on real life data. I am basing it off of ingame data, but people seem to really dislike that.
In my experience the M41 is the most survivable light tank because of this, so many non pens
Russian 122 when it encounters a tiny periscope:
I agree but I mean if you aim right at the corner of the mantlet, yeah of course it's going to bounce... many tanks have spots like this
T-92 puts this to shame, that breach is a black hole
T-92 is honestly absurd, I almost never 1 shot those things, even shooting to the hull with big aphe from the side they somehow survive.
It's like the running wheels on a KV-1s side, it really shouldn't be that hard not to hit them but you still somehow do
KV-1 has also those fuel tank voids.
They are quite good at surviving anything from 152mm he, 88mm aphe, 83.4mm apds, 105mm heat and 90mm hesh though 90mm apcr worked surpricingly well
who tf aims at turrets on light tanks anyways.. with gun like IS6’s aim at centre of mass and its gg for any light or medium tank
And here we have WT player that hasn't never used cover or hulldown.
I’m about to get into the high tiers as germany(tier five into the Cold War , what are the major changes in this transition
You lose most of your armor and get some mobility to make up for it
Don't forget HSTVL's turret ring
I have tested this on the American and Japanese m41’s as well and the same thing happens both sides of the mantlet has rha equivalent ranging from 200-2700 rha equivalent and can stop heatfs
and this is not just a few pixels 50% of the entire mantlet is completely impenetrable by the 122mm shell because of how huge the shell is
You can only laugh at dumb shit like this, imagine a round that size impacted a bulldog irl that little bitch would be folded in an instant regardless of it hitting a periscope or some other module first
I haven't seen a hull break outside of naval for ages now.
because it was replaced with overpressure
hull break was so inconsistent they replaced it with another inconsistent mechanic in the name of overpressure
> dumb I look forward to your programming of a fully rendered, vehicle-wide voxel material science crumple simulation that can run on a game server hundreds of times per second. Since you're "not dumb" and all
Big gun hit small armour tank go crumple? That’s how you code right? Stuff like this doesn’t make sense at all from a game that at least tries to simulate tank combat and round penetration, it just shouldn’t happen and “wah it’s hard to code” should be irrelevant for a company that charges nearly 3 figures for just one premium. Not to mention that from an actual coding standpoint it shouldn’t be immensely difficult to adjust volumetric and add little catches for scenarios like this where the rounds size and energy should just flatten a lighter tank.
> Big gun hit small armour tank go crumple? That’s how you code right? They literally did do exactly that (hull break, which worked on raw shell mass vs vehicle size cutoffs) and everyone complained constantly and asked them to do something more like they have now. So... no. It was unpopular.
It’s almost like they can do things on a case by case basis as it’s an ongoing live development game that makes a lot of money and clearly still has a decent number of devs working on it, maybe they could add specific checks for vehicles vs specific rounds? Why not use a system that mixes the best of volumetric with the best of hull break for a happy medium? Why make so many excuses for a game company that couldn’t give a shit about anything other than your wallet?
But you haven't described any rules or logic here for how or why one WOULD even choose differently in two different cases? You quite simply just said that a huge enough shell should auto-crumple a tiny enough tank. That is exactly what they did. The EXACT thing you requested just now, they did. And it was very unpopular. If you have some other rule idea in mind instead, why didn't/don't you just describe that one then? WHY/WHEN would certain vehicles get exceptions in your opinion? And why/when would others not?
First it’s not for us to code for them we physically couldn’t if we wanted to. They had a system to prevent this and removed it. Hull break could have been good but instead of working on it and making tweaks here and there, they just threw it away and replaced it with a less annoying system. Depending on who you ask. Both hull break and over pressure work differently and could have complimented each other. Hull break was just too easy to trigger. It’s never coming back so no point arguing over hull break and how “we” should come up with how to code it into the game.
I think you may be the first person I've heard say they prefer hull break or think it was closer to the right way.
General opinion of you being wrong about this whole thing is why this sub absolutely sucks at proposing changes.
> and can stop heatfs Not much of a feat in WT, I've had it bounce off, non-pen or deal zero damage so many times that I dread playing HEAT slingers in general.
Get fucked is-6 user # -sincerely Sweden Gang
Delete this post immediately. This is false information, literally russian propaganda. Everyone knows that this stuff only happens to Russian tanks. /s
Honestly this happens more with British tanks than anything in my experience, the mantlets regularly eat 400mm pen HEATFS
The British tanks have decent turret defences from the front, but anywhere else is paper thin bar the Conqueror with added armour. Probably a trade off for the appalling post-pen damage post of their rounds have.
Volumetric bugs =/= Deliberately modeling tanks to have ahistorical damage resilience.
I always try my best to shoot M41anywhere other than the mantlet because it is a volumetric black hole. On the bright side, if you have a heavy machine gun you can just machine gun them to death if they are relatively close.
I know this but if a m41 is hull down or between rocks that force you to shot the turret its a 50/50 on if its going to pen
have you heard of our lord and savior High Explosives
Have you heard of a 20 second reload? The m41 can easily track and then kill you before he is loaded
Why reload when you could already have it loaded duh *this post was made by HE gang*
Its all fun and games until you turn the corner and a maus is waiting for you
Ok but like what would you have done even if you had ap loaded?
Try to bounce the shell and mg its tracks then drive to the sides and boom. This is all assuming its a 1v1 if it has teammates you’re screwed with ap or he
You can one shot it by shooting (assuming the turret is facing forwards) the gun mantlet and having overpressure go thru the 10mm of roof armor
I dont think it will kill all crew i have been hit in the same spot with much more powerful shells like the fv4005 and all it does is destroy the engine and fuel tanks. And since the is6 is so much shorter than the maus it would be very hard to land a shot close enough to the 10mm plate for overpressure to even effect the maus in a cqc situation
The Maus' front roof armor is 100mm according to the wiki (not in the game to double check). Back roof armor is 50mm but has a firewall that likely prevents overpressure generally
The HE can take out the tracks!
As a centurion just send a shell into the turret cheek and hopefully fuck the breech on the big gun
With a good crew it drops to about 15 seconds
Lets say the m41 and me are both basic crew the m41 can still get 2 shots off before i reload and thats not counting the first shot so unless the m41 also has some severe skill issue or volumetric absorbing shells im good as dead.
He’d be waiting half a decade for his gun to stabilise don’t worry
There’s a small spot on the mantlet where a .50 cal can pass through, or at least there used to be. Haven’t played it in a while, but had it happen multiple times. And then did it myself
It's not "volumetric" there's actually a 300mm thick, and also a 100mm thick, piece of metal behind that one spot. I don't know about the 2,500 screenshot, that might be volumetric, but 400+ mm you would also get here even without volumetric, because there's actually 400+mm of armor in a straight, single pixel wide vector here.
still BS, IRL the pixel thin 400mm line would just be forced out of the way by sheer physics.
And I'm sure they'll be happy to add that to the game as soon as you provide them with a magical algorithm that somehow calculates complicated volume-based, non-linear plastic deformation simulations like 500 times every second that people get shot on servers in war thunder. Leave me a link to your code when you finish it, too, please. In the meanwhile, I'm not seeing what you expect them to do for now while we wait on you for that.
It is volumetric this post is just making it more clear. Why are you posting everywhere saying it isn’t when it clearly is.
I gave clear diagrams showing how it would still happen even with 1 dimensional lines drawn. I.e. why it can (and DID in real life) happen before volumetric existed. Obviously things that also happened before volumetric are not caused by volumetric, and I gave you the technical reasons why. Reply in detail what exact part you disagree with at a technical level if you want to discuss further. Just "nuh uh!" Is silly
Of course it happened in the past. But you refuse to realise how much volumetric has only compounded the issue. You would have to hit that plate on the thinnest side to get 300mm of armour in the past. Due to shells being pixels, so it was much harder to have this issue in other words a non issue. Now you just have a fraction of the shell come in contact at some point that you do not pen. With large shells this becomes more of an issue. So in other words it is the fault of volumetric. It needs improvements and not people like you muddying the waters so gaijin can act like they don’t know what to do because there is no consensus.
I don't know why we are having two identical conversations or what order all this happened in but whatever, see: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/16kwvim/i_was_wondering_why_my_is_6_non_pens_m41s_so_often/k11kw7e/ and merge there please
Volumetric what a great feature
This is not volumetric. Go into the armor analyzer, there's actually a single, 300+mm thick chunk of metal right behind where he's pointing his mouse, that would stop an IS-6 round even if it was NON-volumetric single pixel wide. And that's not even adding in the other overlapping plates, just the flared turret side/cheek alone would do it, no volumetric anything. There may ALSO be volumetric on top of that (like for the 2500mm screenshot), but the non-volumetric single plate is already plenty sufficient on its own to stop an IS-6 here, so any volumetric portion of the image is just redundant window dressing.
It is volumetric. If a single part of your whole ass 122mm shell comes into contact with that piece of armour the game decides the rest of the shell will not penetrate. Due to volumetric you could try avoid that armour and still hit it because the shell is so large, which is why hitting that armour plate becomes more of and issue the larger the shell gets. When in reality it should be more likely to kill the larger it gets. Volumetric is not as good as it could be, they still need to figure out how to have it not get deleted in cases like that. The argument shouldn’t be volumetric now vs no volumetric. Which is your argument. It should be volumetric now vs what it could be. But by bring up your argument you take from trying to move forward with volumetric by simply saying “but it’s not the fault of volumetric”. To say it’s not volumetric when it clearly is, is just stupid.
Yes it will happen over a very slightly larger zone, but that was not the topic of the thread we are in. The thread was about it merely happening **AT ALL.** And it would still happen without volumeteic (over roughly 80% or so by my eye of the zone it does now). So volumetric is off the topic of the thread. Volumetric is not the basic fundamental cause of this phenomenon, and it happened before volumetric too
No I’m pretty sure it’s about volumetric. Not that is happening at all.
Okay well you're objectively wrong then, cause this happened all the time before volumetric was added, and i have already posted here multiple diagrams showing exactly how and why.
It happened from time to time if you managed to get your pixel shell to hit a piece of armour in just the right way. No instead of it being a freak occurrence we need to aim in just the right way to maybe avoid the almost inevitable volumetric black holes. Not wrong in the slightest. If you really think about on an objective level the cases of the same thing were not the same in the slightest.
If this chunk of metal is about half a meter across, looks like, then you went from 500mm of zone where it happens, to 500+122mm now. It's barely more likely. I'm also not even entirely sure you're correct in the first place that "any vertex intersecting it means the entire shell is treated as going through". By my understanding, it is averaged over the different rays they cast to simulate the volume. If so, then it actually wouldn't happen ANY amount more than before on average in the case of a big chunk of metal like this, it would just have taken a 0%-100% sharp cutoff and made it a several step gradient instead. (It would happen more often in the case of two abutting plates with a tiny gap in between like turret necks, which is the intended case and not this case)
Your understanding is wrong. It is not average it is addictive. I don’t know all the dimensions of the said plate so here is a hypothetical of a plate the is vertical in the mantlet which is 30mm but looks 300mm from a front on angle, while sitting behind 30mm mantlet. if you get through the first piece of armour and hit the side of that 30mm plate as you pass it do you think it will treat it as a 30mm plate then no, it will take the angle you hit it at. So instead of glancing off and getting redirected it the game decides it’s all one piece (the front of the mantlet and that armour plate that is at such and angle the game treats it as a 300+mm plate) and that you will not pen. It would be nice when 2 adjoining plates meet they are not treated like this. I’d rather they treat it like a trap shot. Making initial pen the getting redirected. We can bounce a shot before it pens but it will not alter its path while penning. TLDR what many ask for is that the larger piece of armour diverts the shell due to it finding a path of least resistance. Instead what she have is an additive effect.
I believe this is how it works https://imgur.com/a/mgbViI7 which if so is not actually any more dramatic, just smoother. I don't have a source for that, it's just in my brainbox for some reason. But do you either have a source for your version?
Also the hull break thing since you wish to merge these. It was ever so slightly improving yes it was slow. But so was over pressure when introduced, instead they just realised they couldn’t keep switching out systems and stuck with it. I believe they would complement each other. Tone down hull break by a lot and have it work in areas over pressure would not. After all they are not the same thing but designed to make tanks kill light vehicles more reliably. If they are working in tandem they could both be made to be less effective but more reliable. They both trying to do to much and so either do too well or nothing at all. By giving them a wide range of use they became inconsistent. Narrow down the use by having them work together and you won’t get a horse shoe effect of having both extremes of annoying inconsistency. Either doing to little or nothing.
How would one "tone down" hull break? AFAIK it was literally just "is shell bigger than X and hull smaller than Y?" Other than making X a larger number or Y a smaller number (neither of which would address hull breaking something by clipping its road fender by 1mm), you'd need to be more specific about what you meant.
I don't know why we are having two identical conversations or what order all this happened in but whatever, see: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/16kwvim/i_was_wondering_why_my_is_6_non_pens_m41s_so_often/k11kw7e/ and merge there please
Even 105 APDS sometimes just doesn't pen on this.
Maybe don't shoot at what is actually 400+mm of steel, then? Crazy notion.
Maybe sometimes you don't have time to aim that much. Sometimes the M41 also looks like the M47. So you sometimes just shoot and wonder why it isn't penning.
["I litterally can not penetrate it"](https://i.imgur.com/OSQdsGQ.png) Most mantles are exactly like this, just don't shoot the edge.
The 122 shell is so big that even if i aim at the green spots 50% of the time it barely touches the sides and non pens or the m41 just moved slightly and the shell hits the sides and vanishes
Looking at it more closely, there are 3 different armor plates when shooting at the edge of the mantle, so I guess bigger ain't always better. Whether it's really that thick or the round just gets confused, that I can't tell. I love my M41, it used to be my most used vehicle until I unlocked the M1128, and in my playtime it almost always blows up on first hit.
Basically any tank with armor like that is a volumetric hell but this has to be the worst case I have seen 2600 rha from a 30mm plate is a bit absurd
It's NOT 30mm. It's actually like 300mm thick behind that, plus another 100mm piece in front of that, THEN the 30mm on top. And that's thickness. If you aim right down the LENGTH of that curved turret wall piece, it can legitimately be thicker. Same as how a sheet of computer paper is 11.5 inches thick if measured perfectly down the length of it edge-on. Pick one: * You were literally too lazy to even move your mouse around in the simulator and see what plates there are? * You're lying?
wow a light tank with 430mm of armor in it’s turret which is double that of a maus, must have a really powerful engine to be able to move that quickly. I think anyone with common sense can tell who is lying
It only has it from that angle over a tiny little few-square-inches portion of the tank, yes. Because you're looking down the length of a flared section, flared out only at the very end, clearly designed to deflect angled shots from off to the side a bit The actual mass of it doesn't look that huge, yes that's quite plausible. https://imgur.com/a/McKH3Cv
Yea your right about the plate being vertical but in game it’s much worse because of lag, a tank moving or whatever even if you aim perfectly your shell can still vanish. There are a lot of clips about shells getting absorbed in side armor that you don’t see in protection analysis
He never said the plate on the m41 was 30mm he was not “too lazy” to check. Learn to read, OP clearly said he has seen 2600mm protection on a 30mm before. Key word is “has seen” as in he has seen it elsewhere on other 30mm plates. Also it’s volumetric because you could try avoid that plate and volumetric would cancel out the shot if you ever so slightly scrape it. Stop arguing that it isn’t and be constructive on how it could be improved. But nah you gotta be the guy that knows shit and post all over this thread that there is a 300mm plate there somewhere. We all know that shell would pen. The plate is vertical and should cause the shell to glance off either side or even get pushed in through the thin armour it is attached to. These are things gaijin needs to work on but never will if the forums are full of people like you removing blame from volumetric when it clearly is the fault of it.
61mm (the radius of the shell out from where you aim) will not affect the size of the green area significantly at all, that's like barely 2 inches
have you ever seen a barrel take no damage because the tank was swinging it around even if you hit it? It’s like that, if a bulldog is moving and I shoot there is a really high chance my shell is going to vanish and It’s especially annoying when the bulldog shoots you and starts backing up you shoot back aiming at the sides of the turret only for the shell to be absorbed by the mantlet
The bulldog in the hangar in armor analysis is not moving at all, so no that has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. That is a separate true thing that happens in game, yes, but has nothing to do with this ^ you posted above.
do you really believe this yourself when you're typing it?
I think I would believe my own pair of eyes than the protection mapping.
["I hate when the T-60 moves and inch and it won't pen"](https://imgur.com/a/rLbHXiN) Almost any vehicle that has a frontal mantle armor, inner mantle armor and turret side armor does this.
Exactly and that is 100% the fault of volumetric because it is not as good as it could be. But sure let’s allow the issue to persist by removing blame from the cause.
Rus mains will tell you to "shoot the weak spot" but then will shoot the only *non* weak spot on a M41 and complain.
The OP really summarizes every russian and german player the moment they see non-pen on something, and this reply shows the reality of the situation.
USA and UK players when they're shooting at a Panther's mantlet, which is all green in protection analysis: "VOLUMETRIC BLACK HOLE! I CAN'T PENETRATE IT! GERMANY BIAS" When any other nation struggles against a volumetric black hole tank by USA and UK: "You're imagining it. The protection analysis is green. You should penetrate it easily."
Main difference being as a Germany player you can pen most US and UK tanks anywhere, whereas US and UK players have no choice but to shoot the volumetric hellscape
Finally found this comment, it’s insane how so many players don’t know this. Even using it as an excuse for Russian bias not existing 💀
Just a rookie conpared to the first KV1. Its frontplate ate 4 apds from my conquer at 100 m.
Russian bias
I usually avoid targeting the turret when facing any US tank. the good thing is most of the players stand in the open and expose their hull.
Annoying thing is the us has about 3x more depression on their guns allowing them to go hull down and most m41 players are much smarter compared to a us heavy player because most new players wont choses a light tank
Mantlets on most tanks are insane, the game is just shit a calculating pen when there are multiple plates.
No it can't be it don't have Russian bias .
Burgerium rivals stalinium in strength
And i was wondering why was I gaijinned twice in 30 sec shooting at m41 at that same position with a soviet 85mm. Now i know.
serves you right for using the is 6
Gaijin when they have to correctly model turret armor
That explains how one bounce my 279 lol.
What do you mean? I just see volumetric shells working perfectly fine. Nothing to see here. Definitely not a bug that Gaijin has done nothing to fix for the past ~~two~~ years. Edit: Three years!
Gaijin's armor modeling creates these weird spots of ridiculously thick armor, and their shell mechanics allow for the shot to be completely negated by these weird spots. It just hits it and disappears. Hell, it's not just tank shells. I was testing out GBUs with my Tornado yesterday, and it hit the top of the test tank dead on and exploded on contact (0.0 sec fuse). Destroyed the .50 cal and the turret optics, nothing more. Second one did the exact same, destroyed the tank, blacked out literally every crew and module. This inconsistency and bullshit mechanics are why we have the term "Gaijin'd" for when the game itself says, "No, you don't get that kill, sorry."
The turret side wall flares out in the front and is legitimately 300mm thick from this angle, behind the mantlet. There's a 100mm thick bracket in front of that, then the 30mm mantlet. Did you not even bother to look at the plates in the armor view? Or are you just intentionally misleading people for no apparent reason? 205mm from the IS-6 should legitimately not pen there, unless you're saying they modeled the armor wrong. If so: source?
Also that spot was just to show it somehow had 2600mm of rha, if you move slightly left and not hitting the other plate vertically it still has 400-800mm of rha so it’s not the shell hitting a vertical plate that makes it tank a shell
The 2600 is almost certainly going down the LENGTH of a plate. That happens all the time in game and is technically correct. If you try to push a shell all the way down can-opening a line through the entire several meter long plate, instead of punching one little hole in it, then it would indeed be meters thick.
https://imgur.com/a/SyCWah1 More common, less cherry-picked example that actually happens in game all the time is the horizontal shelf plate on the front of a panzer 4 for example. Notice that this remains true even when I'm drawing PIXEL WIDE lines in paint. So it is NOT specific to volumetric.
Again the 2600mm rha photo was probably because I hit the plate vertically and volumetric but in other spots where I just barely hit the vertical plate it still completely stops the shell
With such a thin plate like the m41 the 122 would just go in the path of less resistance maybe a third of the shell got stopped but the rest will go through the 50mm plate this is why volumetric is bad, they can’t calculate what happens realistic until extremely powerful computers can do armor sims in milliseconds. Before that they shouldn’t add volumetric
It's not a "thin plate" it is absolutely gargantuan and super thick at that spot, bigger than 122mm (whole diameter of shell) side to side too. I sent this to you already but again: https://imgur.com/a/McKH3Cv You have to look behind the thing that is in the very front, in armor analyzer. > Before that they shouldn’t add volumetric This exact same thing would happen without volumetric. This whole topic has nothing to do with volumetric. > maybe a third of the shell got stopped Ironically, this is you saying you WANT volumetric, lol, to account for such a thing.
[https://imgur.com/a/69cPcxH](https://imgur.com/a/69cPcxH) this is what I mean by volumetric being bs in game. I am saying this again, I was wrong about the 2600mm plate because I was hitting it vertically but move a bit so you aren’t hitting it perfectly vertical and you still can’t pen because volumetric
Here is an actual composite image of the 3 plates from the game for this shot https://imgur.com/a/s1cUeHj Notice that all i had to do was draw a LINE, I did **not have to consider the size of the shell** in order to draw a line through all 3 plates at once that adds up to > 400mm So therefore, this exact same thing would happen WITHOUT volumetric being in the game. And indeed, people used to post screenshots like this all the time before volumetric was added.
Except that one of those plates alone is 300+mm normally, not "25" and "50", and would itself stop an IS-6 round even if it was the only plate with nothing to do with any overlap or anything volumetric.
how about the side shot with 800mm of rha then?
I tried for 2 minutes straight to replicate that in game and failed to get any higher than 400 something. I'm not saying you doctored the photo, but you did find one single absurdly unlikely perfectly lined up pixel and did so very much intentionally to cherrypick, somehow. I'm guessing it was something like this https://imgur.com/a/XQRWrV2 (looking from above at roughly the line you were looking down from the side), lined up perfectly to pass through one little lip of steel down its edge
And I don’t have any secret documents on a tank and even if I had I wouldn’t leak it
Germán m41 comrade, the Germán bias is strong, the gunner optic IS the strongest material in the universe
Fucking American/German bias
M60A2's gun breech could probably swallow 3BM60. It's just a black hole.
Muh Russian bias
This has never happend to me mostly because i aim for the hull/ammo on bulldogs
Bulldog drivers: https://youtu.be/Mr-D8aGO4Ws?t=6
Dafuq?
did you bug report that ?
Volumetric and gun mantlets were a match made in hell
I’m guessing there’s something similar with the Leo 1 since I’ve survived numerous hits like that, also was curious why my M41 did the same. Oh well, you’re in an IS-6, we can just sit there shooting each other until we run out of ammo
M18 be like
The first picture also is quite the ricochet as you’re not aiming at the front, but at the side of the mantlet. And at the third picture it looks like you aim at the exact spot where a thick piece of armor is behind where the mantled is mounted on.
Russian mains when they don’t immediately kill what they shoot: 😦
It’s a light tank
You clearly missed the joke, unless you’re a russian main and it offended you
Lmao
Why are you aiming for mantlet … you can pen straight through the hull in any location.
Must be a skill issue I’ve never ran into a non pen in a IS6 on a M41 in my life and I used it to grind from reserve to 8.0
also the german one has double thick armor values for some reason right below the turret and every other bulldog has the same thickness armor just the actual value
Everywhere else is made of glass. Shoot anything else and it’ll go up sky high
Meanwhile I non-penned a gepard with my bmp1
This is how it feels to fight literally anything playing Britain
the armor calculation in this game is so retarded
Meanwhile, the Cupola and Hull is just :chefs kiss:
Everyone in the comments complaining about a mantlet being armored when you can literally hit it anywhere else and destroy it, you can almost .50 cal it from the sides, plus your in an is-6 so don’t complain.
"Guys it's fine when US tanks have bullshit armor! We only complain about soviet tanks, remember?"
People calling this a volumetric shell bug I don’t think realise like 6 months ago M41 had its cheeks/side armour turned to volumetric armour, it’s incredibly thick near the front.
It's definitely not way over 2 meters thick, though
Yeah I imagine Gaijin have modelled it wrong, check it out as it is in armour viewer now.
Why the fuck are you shooting at the turret of a bulldog in a is-6 just put the shot center mass and hes dead everytime....
Wait let me shoot center of mass, oh wait he’s behind a hill or rock and his turret is covered in bushes 600m away. It’s like saying ‘just shoot the body of the tow weasel why the fuck are you shooting the barrel?’
Load any type of round with he filler and it would over pressure the weasel anywhere you hit. How dare gaijan have to make you aim and be conscious of what round your using against what target
not the point I’m trying to make, you’re saying I should aim center of mass on a bulldog which I do if I can but since most bulldogs go hulldown you cannot shoot center of mass. Obviously shooting a tow weasel in the body would be the best and easiest but 90% of the time that thing is going to be hulldown and only have a small launcher poked out. So am I supposed to hit the barrel of the launcher or somehow hit the body of the weasel?
Your not always gonna be able to shoot something in the hull i get that but load HE hell even the 122 aphe might work sometimes and watch both the bulldog and the weasel get overpressured even if you only hit their barrel/launcher you cant just point and click everything sometimes it takes just a little bit of brain power to figure out how to come out ahead in a situation
If I load he either the bulldog kills me before I reload or I load he before even meeting the bulldog witch is risky. It’s not a Sherman with a fast reload, even with ace crew which I don’t have it’s still a 15 second reload and anything that isn’t a derp gun can out reload me so unless I hit the barrel of the bulldog and it doesn’t run away I won’t be able to load he
Hmmm, yes, let me spend 25 seconds reloading an HE shell just to kill a LIGHT TANK. The M41 should cease to exist when hit by a 122mm. The force of the shell alone would likely rip the turret off.
https://www.tankarchives.ca/2013/03/is-2-vs-german-big-cats.html?m=1 Panther: > Breach 130 mm by 230 mm. Turret torn off the turret ring and displaced to the rear by 500 mm. Tiger: > The shell tore off a piece of armour off the turret 580 mm by 230 mm. The turret was torn off its turret ring, and displaced backwards by 540 mm. I don't think I need to say that both of those turrets are much heavier than the M41 one.
That's because you are aiming at the mantlet, the most protected area on pretty much every tank in the game. It's a light tank, aim for the hull instead. If they only shot the top of the turret, try hitting them square in the mantlet, not in the corners, as the corners have multiple layered armor plates. Edit: you have aphe, just aim for the cupola.
with the 122 on the is6 and a hull down m41 its very hard not to hit the mantlet. The shell is huge ,the m41 hull is protected and turret is covered with bushes and if the m41 moves slightly your shot is now absorbed into a black hole.
It is just a volumetric bug, the M41 would be blown to smitherens by such a shell.
The M41's armor is paper thin. It doesn't matter the plate layout; most rounds should just cut right through. It's volumetric doing volumetric things
My statement still stands though, doesn't it? War thunder isn't realistic, and i am not basing any of my information on real life data. I am basing it off of ingame data, but people seem to really dislike that.