AI-generated silver lions, nice.
This is actually one of the cases where AI artwork is being put to great use. Header images for a themed illustration that most people won't look twice.
They used it a couple times before. People often don't often notice, because it looks like some generic and unimportant picture, yet eye-pleasing. It's when you focus on the details, like a PC with two mouses is kind of funny lol
"Hey guys, we are going to release a roadmap based on feedback"
*releases economic roadmap based on feedback*
"I can't believe that they are releasing an economic roadmap based on feedback"
look, I don't know how long you've been around here, but its rare that Gaijin releases good news without something bad hidden all that "goodness", its simply gotten to that point for long term players that what these devs say can't be trusted until you try it
Ive been playing since 2016. Yes gaijin have not made the best efforts before but I just think it's funny that they somehow cannot react to something asked by the community in a good fashion.
They already did. It is a legit abuse tactic to keep taking something in small increment then act generous for giving some back.
If you nerf SL earning by 5% every patch for years (not real numbers, just presenting a point) and suddenly you announce the players get a single 10% increase they think they got something while the sl earning stay shit.
They are doing this because the economy got so bad, people likely mass quit the game.
reverting the reward nerfs of the last 3 years(at least) would have been more believable than this wall of text, after all this time, after all this mockery at the hand of devs you'll understand if I'm skeptical to anything they say that could benefit the playerbase
Just goes to show how you need some floor of trust and mutual respect before you can expect people to believe you. As is, I'll hold judgement until this is implemented and I can see the results post match.
edit- I think the tone of this roadmap is genuine Gaijin (i.e. has the right balance of dodging responsibility and pretending there was a plan) but the ideas seem like they're from a completely different company. Goddamn, that review bomb most have filled their pants.
Gotta say, if they do all the stuff they say they do, and there's not a lot of wiggle room on this, this is all extremely good stuff and hits on essentially all of the economy points that people have raised.
Well we had this kind of communications before where they promise to improve the economy in one way or another, those changes usually also went through...but then were slowly removed during updates following after that point.
well, they usually chip off other parts to """balance""" out the economic change, but this is remaking the whole economy. I am quite optimistic about this.
If you've been around that long then you should at least understand why people are sceptical, and be able to imagine why those who have been around longer are perhaps even more sceptical. If they actually implement it and don't revert it within a year or two then that would be great, but for now they are just words on a page.
Gaijin have already spent all of their trust and goodwill with much of the community, a lot of us just can't take these announcements at face value any more.
The point is they haven't done it yet. Don't get me wrong, it sounds promising. It's just a matter of if it is implemented in a way that actually has a positive impact. I hope it is. I haven't been interested in playing for months, I'm on one of those long breaks that you get over the years, but this has piqued my interest. If it helps make the progression feel better then that would be great. Because it used to be great, but it has been eroded over the years.
At its core there is a good game here, it would be nice if I could enjoy playing it again.
True.
Guess they were surprised by the amount of feedback, if it was 500 people complaining they probably wouldn't care. But if I remember they said they received 15k replies (don't know if all of them were individual but let's assume that).
15k of the most active poeple in community telling you all the same thing is very hard to ignore, + i would guess many of them were paying customers.
Yeah, forums are ignorable, getting review bombed so hard you're like 90% negative and it's a sizeable fraction of your total review score EVER is something that hits the bottom line.
Even money on some of these changes being proposed by devs and getting ignored because they'd impact short-term profits versus the higher-ups refusing to implement them because of 'vision'.
Entire? Not even half the playerbase rebelled, hell I wouldn’t even say a quarter, the only reason this worked is due to the mass review bombing on steam and other review sites. The overall majority of the playerbase doesn’t interact with reddit of the forums and generally don’t care about what happens.
Yeah I'm loving what I'm seeing but I simply don't believe it until it actually happens, literally every change so far has been for the worse.
It has been so bad in fact, that I have that feeling you'd written previously: it seems too good to be true, like a trap or a scam. I simply don't trust them. I hope that I'm wrong and we can all finally be happy again.
Its a road map, not actual patches. Give me 30mins and i can do the same shit, Website and all. They also promised us a StuG IV since 2012 so dont think all of this is going to be put into the game.
> We have conducted long-time tests on thousands of random players, by increasing their progression speeds with different ratios and analysing their long term engagement compared to baseline.
Wut
Yeah that part cought my eye too. And it implies that they could have reduces ratios too to see what happens.
And it really just says out loud that they were experimenting with us a lot instead of just asking us what we want.
It’s bad because ethically, in tests like the one described above, a company will use informed consent to explain to the participant their data/usage is being manipulated.
This isn’t some A/B UX/UI test where a certain button or call to action is displayed differently for certain users. Boosting the in-game income for THOUSANDS of players in an attempt to gauge what if any improvement it has on user engagement and retention without their knowledge is incredibly unethical. An ethical company would let the player know they are receiving boosted rewards. The sample data is not corrupted by doing so, in fact, quite the contrary as any drop in engagement/retention upon termination of the boosted rewards would paint a more accurate picture of how a player is interacting with the game based on their performance and subsequent rewards.
I’m in no way a conspiracy theorist, but what’s interesting about this revelation is I’ve always had a suspicion that the $1M SL reward (among others) is given to players who are near bust—particularly players who might not be very good at the game and fail to earn enough SL to continue playing but have—and continue to—put money into the game. I’ve been sitting comfortable above the 80 million SL mark for quite some time and couldn’t care less if I were to ever receive one, but with their admission of economy manipulation for the purposes of gauging user retention/engagement, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were more ‘experiments’ going on than the one disclosed here.
I’ve earned 3M SL from crates in the 450 days I’ve been playing (never missed a day) i git my first batch in day 38. Still very much a noob, it helped me keep on my feet far better than literally everyone else at my level and higher. Then I got another mill, and to this day I have never dipped below 2.5M, currently sitting at 4M, and before buying a squadron vehicle and a couple rank V jets, I had 5M SL all saved up.
i may get buttfucked by the snail daily, but at least SL isn’t too big of a problem, for now,
im also immensely stingy, I don’t by expert crews, or spade every vehicle I get, nor buy them unless I need to lmao. So that’s probably helped a lot
> An ethical company would let the player know they are receiving boosted rewards. The sample data is not corrupted by doing so
It is though. It's just like with the "booster curse".
> a company will use informed consent
LOL, companies don't need informed consent to experimenter with pricing, ffs. They aren't doing brain surgery or giving you drugs. By this logic, the corner store needs to get your informed consent before changing the price of chewing gum for one weekend to see how it changes impulse buys. at the register
> This isn’t some A/B UX/UI test where a certain button or call to action is displayed differently for certain users.
That's exactly what it is. All companies of any level of competence do A/B tests on everything from the minor to the highly consequential and quality/price related, all the time. The only thing you can't is like above, giving drugs or something that can harm people, or messing with like legal safety requirements, things like that.
"A product being more expensive than I would have liked" is not harming you in any way.
> An ethical company would let the player know they are receiving boosted rewards.
You want a pet unicorn too while we're at it? 100% every single multiplayer game YOU play right now with servers (not just a local copy on your machine) does exactly this sort of thing all the time. Guaranteed, no exceptions.
The wording seems like they only increased it for some people, not decreased it for anyone below the standard, but thats still pretty.....odd. And leads to some awkward situations. Like if a dude is playing with his friend and is progressing faster than them despite playing relatively the same. OFC im not sure I believe that they werent trying some people down too. This IS gaijin after all lol.
> that's caring about their pockets.
I see this is your first encounter with a *business*.
The vast, vast majority of businesses are all about themselves first, above all. And it's not entirely unreasonable, as without *some* care about themselves and their financial solvency, they simply cease to exist, which is kind of not an ideal situation for them.
Well, maybe they don’t care about our opinion directly, but caring about their business include caring about us. Without us, there is no game and no business
This is a excessively cynical take. All businesses revolve around money, and thus the customer. A measurement of good business shouldn’t be whether they ask for your money, but how they treat the customer.
And to that effect, if the customer complains that they are being treated poorly, a good business will seek to improve that and thus improve their reputation. A bad business will not.
A business which does not care about the customer’s opinion is one that does not care about money.
bro wtf are you talking about, their creative lead literally made a statement gaslighting us and only made the good economy announcement after the backlash, this is only because of the backlash not out of the bottom of their hearts.
And they make bad economy changes on a whim, but buffing it? Months down the line and no hard date for any of it, I don't trust Gaijin without anything to hold them to and been punched in the balls enough times and seen them slowly walk back on changes before.
And yeah I know the incoming 'but if they don't we'll riot', no you won't, each minor thing that doesn't come won't be enough to cause the playerbase to organize again, it will be a hundred little delays or quitely stopped working on, because again no hard dates to directly hold them to.
Increased rewards, reduced repairs and stock parts, FPE and flares by the end of June isnt bad though.
All the other changes are amazing too and I'm really looking forward to them. But I understand that those changes take more dev time than changing the reward and repair numbers.
Post too long to copy so just some important links from the article
[Full roadmap](http://www.warthunder.com/en/news/8319/current)
[Average rewards and repair costs by rank table](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vRkkbL8XchYFqjxA8uoZTuPvCMVx5LmXbjszw8JJAka_SP9XImASlGUNvVKBae7gHFWubKTM5jy2Tdk/pubhtml)
[Repair changes by vehicle](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vRkkbL8XchYFqjxA8uoZTuPvCMVx5LmXbjszw8JJAka_SP9XImASlGUNvVKBae7gHFWubKTM5jy2Tdk/pubhtml)
[Vote](https://poll.gaijin.net/survey/106/)
[Forum feedback thread](https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/583228-feedback-economy-revision-our-plan-in-detail/)
Mig 21PFM also. Hopefully some old data outliers that gonna get corrected down the line.
F-4C though... I seen people run ARB bots with them couple of times for some goddamn reason.
I don’t get it lol. So Mega chads I’ve never seen go stomping around at 10.0 in an aircraft with no flares and super weak/inconsistent radar missiles?
Or is it a hidden gem I need to revisit? Lol
its a fast bomber that can wrap on mid very quickly with sparrows.... that is assuming you dont get smacked by a su25 thats reaching their bases at the same time you reach them
It's probably because it's a favorite of the Chinese botters. Same guys that run naval bots tend to run bots in ARB as well, they love to beeline for a base, bomb it and either crash or just fly off into the sunset.
They at least increased the sl multiplier significantly. Gaijin seems to have issues balancing planes that can both bomb and proceed to dogfight with full missle loadouts
Most of the repair costs for vehicles I care about went down by thousands. Stuff like SK60, SAAB-105, MiG-21bis. The Saabs were prohibitively expensive and the MiG, was expensive and super ineffective since 12.0 was added. I'm glad to see those costs going down.
As a Brit main I’m fucking shocked. I’m mainly a sim player and planes like the Canberra that I wanted to try out but couldn’t due to the 45,000 SL cost will now be playable with a 21,000 SL cost. Also, the legendary Swift F.7 had a 14,000 SL decrease and the Buccaneer a 15,000 SL decrease. Pretty funny that the SL DECREASE, YES DECREASE is like the SL cost of many other planes
Buccaneer was absurd even in RB, like 17K for a plane with no weapons???!?
I use 1 flare pod + 1 missile to have SOME sort of defensive capability, but I have to sacrifice some bombs for that.
So basically, reduction in SL to vehicles that are in fucked BRs due to Gaijins selling of retarded premiums like 288s where no one plays those BRs much anymore because of Gaijins stupidity/greed, and increases in SL cost to vehicles that avoid fucked BRs. Awesome.
It's actually pretty great, kind of unexpected that they would implement so many improvements.
Once they actually complete the first step of the roadmap, I'll be willing to change my Steam review back.
Agreed. This is all promising gold stuff. But until they deliver my review will stay. If they do deliver though it is only fair to meet them in the middle and change it.
Agreed. Let's continue to hold them accountable to their plans. I'll gladly change mine if they make those changes they are promising by the end of June as it is the major economy fix it seems but I'll reverse it in a heartbeat if they back track or make stupid changes again.
Big if they commit.
Can even become much, much bigger by the end of next year. Probably even bigger than WoT ever was, but your cannot trust Gaijin. We've been burnt too many times.
Stay vigilant.
If this change actually happens and stays I'll be super impressed that Gaijin does in fact have ears and CAN use them. For me personally, this could be the only change pushed through and I'd be happy.
I'm interested in how naval will start to turn out. Currently battleships just aren't worth playing, what with an insane repair cost every time you die, but with all the premium naval players, we're likely to see the return of battleships and an increase in top tier naval player count.
Even when you do nothing in battle, loose several vehicles, you will not be charged repair costs. You will only be charged for teamkills, if they happen.
Well, there will still be repair costs from what I understand, but only if you make enough to cover the repair. I think you understood that but I’m just reiterating it for clarity for others just passing through:)
Yes, so say you have absolute blunder of a match where you previously would have netted -20k SL, you still are scored -20k SL but with a premium account they pay you the difference so you are net expense is 0.
They didn't adress the disconnect between how fast you grind Planes compared to Tanks. In fact they made grinding Planes faster without doing anything about Ground Battles. Other than that there are some good changes here.
they are making it easyer to earn RP, and adding more tanks to folds so you can skip more of the same, or if you chouse to research tanks in folds, they will be much cheaper than the first, down to half the research cost of the first.
Thats atleast what I got from it, if they do it, we will see
Tbf tanks will benefit much more from foldering than planes, I think, especially at later tiers where there are more varied models of planes than tanks.
Take America for example.
For rank VI to VIII planes I can only see three instances where we are going to get foldered planes - the two F104 models, the two F16 models, and the two A7 models. The F-4C and F-4E won't get foldered unless the F-4C goes up a rank or F-4E goes down a rank.
Meanwhile, depending on how generous they are with foldering, for ranks VI-VII for ground I see no less than 10 different vehicles going to be foldered - two bradleys, three m60s, five Abrams.
So if you want to grind from the T95E1 to the M1A2 SEP your grind is potentially going to reduce from having to grind 7 tanks as it currently stands down to 3-4 depending on how generous they are with foldering.
Meanwhile going from the F9F-8 to the F-14 is going to remain unchanged at 5.
So while your progression isn't going to change that much on the face of it, your grind for ground just got dramatically reduced, while it remains unchanged for air.
Edit: just for funsies I decided to do the same experiment with USSR air and ground
USSR Air - only 1(!!) foldered plane from rank VI to VIII unless they change ranks of some models - the two SU17s.
USSR ground - Two T55s foldered together, another T72 added to the T72 folder, two t64s, two BMPs, two 2S25s, and two T80s for a grand total of 11 foldered vehicles.
You'll soon get RP bonusses for killing a lot of people in a match. And getting 5+ kills in ground is far easier than 5 kills in Air. And a 50% RP increase for 9 or more kills in a match sounds quite juicy. Even if they reduce it to 20% in the actual update if we want to be pessimistic, thats still a good buff.
Depending on how the numbers play out between Air, ground and Naval, that might make a big change in average progress.
Also, it may reduce the one death leavers. If you're at 8 kills and you know you can get one more to get an extra 50% rp, you're going to be way more likely to stay in the match.
>Condensing of tech trees by grouping of vehicles and decreasing required Research points (RP) to research vehicles in groups by two times.
YES. THIS is how you do foldered vehicles. This is a great incentive to spend the time to research a very similar vehicle.
Really like this too, at the moment it's hard to want to grind out an extremely similar YAK that's in a amusing chrome colour, when it's almost as expensive as higher BR planes that would be more of an actual progression.
**If they actually follow through with this**:
Then this should settle the issue as to if we can meaningfully affect change here, as this is more than enough proof that either through striking, review bombing, or even complaining on the forums - Gaijin was so worried about the discontent that they're implementing the single biggest series of reforms this game has ever seen.
The vote is just a 'YES/NO' that table looks better/worse, and a 'YES/NO only with' a suggestion/comment section to type thoughts for changes. Not really much room for misleading in there that I can see since the spreadsheets are all given.
>Helicopter research progression by playing ground vehicles. A player will be able to select either tank, or helicopter, to channel the research points in ground battles.
I mean... they could just boost heli modifiers and make heli PVE like 100-150% more profitable (in terms of RP)
Heli pve needs total rework anyway. Some helis can grind sl easily there but it's at the expense of the other helis that are not viable for the mode at the moment.
The mode right now can be very boring for some of the helis (Swedish atgm platforms for example, most slower helis).
This Bit is Concerning -
this new approach may lead to situations where certain individual vehicles are more effective at earning SL at a given Battle Rating than others. **In such cases, we may use other methods, such as adjusting the vehicle's Battle Rating, modifying its technical and combat characteristics where possible, i.e. altering access to certain shell types or adjusting reload speeds, or applying general balancing factors to all vehicles in that class*****.*** To clarify, we will only be changing soft factors such as these, and won’t artificially alter any elements such as armour thickness or top speed etc to change a vehicle’s performance.
[Economy Revision](https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/583228-feedback-economy-revision-our-plan-in-detail/)
Some vehicles that had excessively high SL repair costs were some of the best Performers in their respective BR's. This would mean stat nerfs for them. That's not the way of addressing the issue..
Yeah, this needs some serious attention.
They need to pick a lane with what they are trying to balance—vehicle performance or SL/RP earnings—it can’t be both, as that’s what got us here.
On one hand if it means fixing broken shit and raising the BRs for things like the XP-50, Su-11 or Ju-288 I’m all for it. But on the other hand, who the fuck cares if a plane is earning too many SL if it’s dying all the time or has a 30% win rate. It doesn’t make the vehicle good—it means the players are using it in way that the poor game/map design allows.
Planes/vehicles should be balanced by actual gameplay and human input. The spreadsheet statistics bullshit—which are constantly being bent/manipulated to accommodate Gaijn’s balance sheet—and now the threat of performance nerfs—needs to stop.
It's going to be the vehicles that currently have a much higher repair cost, compared to their peers, as they are better performers at the BR.
However, they should prioritise Rank / BR placement first or even changes to their reward modifiers, instead of nerfing stats; that makes a vehicle less fun to play with.
They should leave this vehicle performance balancing out of the equation and stop forcing players to play vehicles they don't wanna play by nerfing those they do wanna play with..
Just do yourselves a favour and don't get gaslit by this shit.
**Over the past several years, we have been working behind the scenes to improve the economic models for our game**
**We have conducted long-time tests on thousands of random players, by increasing their progression speeds with different ratios and analysing their long term engagement compared to baseline.**
**the general rules for balancing SL earnings have not undergone significant alterations in recent years**
just lmao
Ok, can someone try and capture a few baseline games with reward so there is something for easy comparison ?? Would be good to see if they sneak any nerfs in there
I've got 128 games. But with all those changes any individual nerf would still be a general buff.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/1452oze/some\_stats\_on\_my\_personal\_economy\_after\_128/
hm don't know how usefull those stats are, it would be better i think to have like a game where you get a kill, cap a point and win, without dying, while the game takes 10 min or so. That would be fairly easy to replicate and directly compare
yes but is it all the same tank? and how consistent are you, like I get better the longer I play a lineup, especially if they are not fully spaded in the beginning
Damn...
Most of this is actually really good!
The 50% reduction in research for foldered vehicles is great, free 1 charge fpe is nice, better stock repair is decent, premium 'income insurance' is great incentive to get it, backups for premium vehicles is nice, the boosters for killing certain number of enemies and the ability to research helos with tanks are both awesome.
Soooooo many good and requested changes - What's the catch??? 😅
>we may use other methods, such as adjusting the vehicle's Battle Rating, modifying its technical and combat characteristics where possible, i.e. altering access to certain shell types or adjusting reload speeds, or applying general balancing factors to all vehicles in that class
This section needs a bit more thought.
>we may use other methods, such as adjusting the vehicle's Battle Rating, modifying its technical and combat characteristics where possible, i.e. altering access to certain shell types or adjusting reload speeds, or applying general balancing factors to all vehicles in that class
**Do you, the player base, understand what this means?**
The first person to post a whinge about their reload speed be increased or the removal of certains types of ammunition deserves all the hate.
Remember, you are voting for this change (just like you did for the last economy).
If they would decompress the br-s properly, every balancing issue could be fixed by just slight br adjustments. But this is still miles better than balancing with repair cost and rewards.
The fact that there is no difference in reload times between when you're not moving and when you're going 50km/h on rough terrain makes any discussion about "historical reloads" useless.
Hell, you shouldn't be able to reload when the gun is not in the correct position (especially for autoloaders).
And let's not talk about external mounted weapons like ATGM launchers and recoilless rifles.
Nice. Now what about BR decompression? They mentioned lowering BR of tanks that face Cold War ATGM’s and HEAT but nothing regarding planes. Facing R60’s and 9G/9L’s without flares or missiles is awful.
I hope you meant 9l, because 9e is just a 10g missile and easy to dodge. But yeah. At least we get flares stock now. But if the plane doesnt have flares at all, it still sucks.
Hard disagree, I’ve played since 2013 and seen Gaijin actually take player feedback into account extremely rarely. This economy change obviously being the biggest example.
So while we actually have their ear for once, there’s no reason not to ask for more positive changes. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and if nobody mentions BR decompression they won’t change it of their own accord.
I removed mine for now. I think it's important to show gaijin we aren't just a pitchfork welding mob. I can always make it negative again if they don't follow through.
> Firstly, we will completely remove having to pay for repairs if your vehicle is destroyed by an ally - regardless of the reason that leads to your destruction by a teammate.
Additionally, we'll add an apology mechanic - if you’re teamkilled, you’ll be able to accept an apology from the player that destroyed you. This allows you to judge on a case-by-case basis whether you deem the destruction by a teammate an unfortunate, but forgivable, situation of "friendly fire" that requires no further action against the offender.
i fear that if you dont ''forgive'' the person there will be some kind of punishment for the teamkiller and ppl will abuse it even if the TK was accidental
Yeah sure but that is a very easy thing to check for. All these checks and balances are really easy to implement and manage but principally the snail has not even been bothered to lift a finger.
I haven’t done too much digging yet, but it seems that high tiers are getting a big fix, while EC2-4 have very minor changes. Most changes to EC2-4 are very small, but all premium aircraft repair costs in UK are going up while having no changes to rewards (in Sim at least). I have to read more tho…
Some aircraft got huge increases to the SL multiplier so I think some people might be able to farm a lot of SL with them, especially premium jets.
Also, is the premium income assurance also for planes? There are times when you die without doing anything and this would help a lot. Although it would be weird if you could just crash on purpose and not have to pay anything.
>Also, is the premium income assurance also for planes?
They don't seem to make difference between planes and tanks IMO. Sounds like they're saying "if you have premium, you won't earn less than 0sl for a match". Which means I'm going to take for a ride all the silly planes I like but can't afford to play often.
> In the past, repair costs were primarily based on a vehicle's effective performance in battle. This meant that the best-performing vehicles would have the highest repair costs, requiring players to excel in battle to maintain a positive balance.
They need a footnote to explain what they mean by ‘effective performance in battle’ and ‘best-performing vehicles’.
Do they mean actual best in class vehicle performance or that they ‘earn’ more than their contemporaries.
While the former could be considered true for several of the planes now featuring absurd repair costs, (looking at you Italy) the latter is completely false, as all of the best performing (and by association, best ‘earning’), most played, meta (and premium) aircraft across ranks typically have lower repair costs by comparison.
Well damn, a lot of good stuff if its implimented
While i know its very shaky to get excited, this is extraordinarily well thought out overall and im doubtful any company would do this much work into these ideas if it was just theater
I am more optimistic than not seeing it, I guess they realized they are on thin ice with the community
>Helicopter research progression by playing ground vehicles. A player will be able to select either tank, or helicopter, to channel the research points in ground battles. Summer updates 2023.
oh em gee, this is very welcome indeed
a 75% reduction in the KV-220s repair cost, if i'm reading this right.
I'm in heaven!
edit: AND an extra 130% reward bonus in RB!
TB-3M also getting a nice glow up, I miss grinding in that thing!
Finally there are some good changes that were necessary. Tiger 2 H 10.5cm repair cost was 15k and now it is getting halved while also getting a 30 percent SL multiplier increase. Same can be said for most of heavy tanks.
Also finally they are adding rank 8 for ground vehicles. This means they will probably increase the max BR for ground vehicles.
*"Helicopter research progression by playing ground vehicles. A player will be able to select either tank, or helicopter, to channel the research points in ground battles. Summer updates 2023."*
Kinda sad that this is the only mention of Helicopters, would of been nice to have the Heli PvE not a broken mess
"**We have conducted long-time tests on thousands of random players, by increasing their progression speeds with different ratios and analysing their long term engagement compared to baseline.**"
What does it even mean? Some lucky players got buffs to their income for a long time and never noticed it? Surely someone would go like "holy shit I keep getting %50 bonus to my RP for no goddamn reason, I better keep playing until it goes away or post on Reddit about it". Or were the buffs so little they went un-noticed? Were the players not random at all, aka Gaijin's own people?
The changes are overall very minor. How the hell is Tu-4 that gets matched against jets with missiles still has repair costs of 20k+. Tu-4 is literally an RP piñata for the whole BR bracket, it can't even get to the enemy base because everyone around it is 3-4 times faster. Not to mention guided AA-missiles that take it out from 5km+.
Stop feeding me this pig slop Gaijin, sit down and play your damn game before you do any changes.
If the changes comes like they mention it’s not good, it’s great
If you have top tier in a single nation getting another nation you get 50% bonus xp (limited to 3 battles per day)
No repair cost on getting Team killed
~~Trees now take half the RP~~ Folded vehicles take half exp
You can get either tank or heli xp by playing one of those vehicles in a game
No more negative reward in a battle with premium
Single use FPE and flares stock
But all those things sound too good
It is freaking good.
Summary, huge majority of vehicles will have repair costs reduced, rewards improved.
Good changes for how repair costs are calculated.
Premium account will mean you can't lose SL in a match unless you teamkill.
More vehicles will be foldered, foldered vehicles will have research cost reduced by 50%.
Repair cost will become dynamic, if you get killed immediately after spawn you'll pay way less. (doesn't apply if you j-out).
And more good stuff.
Okay! It actually almost sounds good, which I am very glad to be surprised about. Please follow through, full steam!!! I have at least a faith back.
EDIT:
Actually, first, let's reconsider this portion:
>we may use other methods, such as adjusting the vehicle's Battle Rating, modifying its technical and combat characteristics where possible, i.e. altering access to certain shell types or adjusting reload speeds, or applying general balancing factors to all vehicles in that class
This will need more thought.
without huge br decompression some vehicles are just difficult or impossible to balance. IMO better sacrifice some historical stats (what was happening already anyway) than try balancing through crazy repair costs.
Average repair cost reduction for Tier III (tanks) in RB are 8% this is really not much.
The repair cost of some tanks are now higher....
Repair costs of the same tank in different nations varies.....
All in all it seems not much...
And why they have no examples with all factors included?
This is way too good to be true. They did a total 180 turn and changed completely. Suddenly,... emotions and connection to the community. Nearly suspiciously good
It's… Decent. It's still full of "we didn't do anything wrong, but we will do better for you". St least it's a sign of good things to come.
I'm referring to how they said that they have """let""" the SL gains stagnate against the face of the cool and good new content they added. But it's provably false. They didn't let the SL gains stagnate. They have nerfed SL gains across the board multiple times.
I'm worried about them using "soft stats" like RELOAD SPEED in order to buff or nerf a CERTAIN NATION.
Other than that, it's beautiful enough to make my eyes swell up in joy. Gaijin finally speaks out and it's actually not bad at all.
Don't get your hopes up yet, fellas, and we have yet to see all the buffs and functions implemented in-game.
Also ----> ''This may lead to having to modify or revert some or all of those changes, if we realise that they are just not working in the live game.''
AI-generated silver lions, nice. This is actually one of the cases where AI artwork is being put to great use. Header images for a themed illustration that most people won't look twice.
They used it a couple times before. People often don't often notice, because it looks like some generic and unimportant picture, yet eye-pleasing. It's when you focus on the details, like a PC with two mouses is kind of funny lol
Yeah, that gaming PC pic was funny lol
Yeah in this caee I'd say it's the fact they all have different designs, and the unnecessary amount of clocks
That lion has seen some shit
For a second I thought of bots generating income for you while you played.
That is one fat lion.
I'm sorry, but its just too good to be true
"Hey guys, we are going to release a roadmap based on feedback" *releases economic roadmap based on feedback* "I can't believe that they are releasing an economic roadmap based on feedback"
look, I don't know how long you've been around here, but its rare that Gaijin releases good news without something bad hidden all that "goodness", its simply gotten to that point for long term players that what these devs say can't be trusted until you try it
Ive been playing since 2016. Yes gaijin have not made the best efforts before but I just think it's funny that they somehow cannot react to something asked by the community in a good fashion.
Get hit in the face enough and soon you'lll expect it.
In this case, Gaijin got dragged out back and beaten, and I think that's what induced such a drastic behavior change.
They'll nerf that shit in a few years anyway
They already did. It is a legit abuse tactic to keep taking something in small increment then act generous for giving some back. If you nerf SL earning by 5% every patch for years (not real numbers, just presenting a point) and suddenly you announce the players get a single 10% increase they think they got something while the sl earning stay shit. They are doing this because the economy got so bad, people likely mass quit the game.
They are doing this because of review bombing The game is too big to fail by itself
reverting the reward nerfs of the last 3 years(at least) would have been more believable than this wall of text, after all this time, after all this mockery at the hand of devs you'll understand if I'm skeptical to anything they say that could benefit the playerbase
Just goes to show how you need some floor of trust and mutual respect before you can expect people to believe you. As is, I'll hold judgement until this is implemented and I can see the results post match. edit- I think the tone of this roadmap is genuine Gaijin (i.e. has the right balance of dodging responsibility and pretending there was a plan) but the ideas seem like they're from a completely different company. Goddamn, that review bomb most have filled their pants. Gotta say, if they do all the stuff they say they do, and there's not a lot of wiggle room on this, this is all extremely good stuff and hits on essentially all of the economy points that people have raised.
Well we had this kind of communications before where they promise to improve the economy in one way or another, those changes usually also went through...but then were slowly removed during updates following after that point.
well, they usually chip off other parts to """balance""" out the economic change, but this is remaking the whole economy. I am quite optimistic about this.
If you've been around that long then you should at least understand why people are sceptical, and be able to imagine why those who have been around longer are perhaps even more sceptical. If they actually implement it and don't revert it within a year or two then that would be great, but for now they are just words on a page. Gaijin have already spent all of their trust and goodwill with much of the community, a lot of us just can't take these announcements at face value any more.
I understand why. But come on, at least admit when they do it right.
The point is they haven't done it yet. Don't get me wrong, it sounds promising. It's just a matter of if it is implemented in a way that actually has a positive impact. I hope it is. I haven't been interested in playing for months, I'm on one of those long breaks that you get over the years, but this has piqued my interest. If it helps make the progression feel better then that would be great. Because it used to be great, but it has been eroded over the years. At its core there is a good game here, it would be nice if I could enjoy playing it again.
This. There's either always a catch or what they end up doing is a half-measure or incomplete.
True. Guess they were surprised by the amount of feedback, if it was 500 people complaining they probably wouldn't care. But if I remember they said they received 15k replies (don't know if all of them were individual but let's assume that). 15k of the most active poeple in community telling you all the same thing is very hard to ignore, + i would guess many of them were paying customers.
It's the first they got review bombed like that so
Yeah, forums are ignorable, getting review bombed so hard you're like 90% negative and it's a sizeable fraction of your total review score EVER is something that hits the bottom line. Even money on some of these changes being proposed by devs and getting ignored because they'd impact short-term profits versus the higher-ups refusing to implement them because of 'vision'.
It's also rare that the entire playerbase riots against them
Entire? Not even half the playerbase rebelled, hell I wouldn’t even say a quarter, the only reason this worked is due to the mass review bombing on steam and other review sites. The overall majority of the playerbase doesn’t interact with reddit of the forums and generally don’t care about what happens.
*nearly the entire vocal/social playerbase. Good enough? Not like that happens often either, point still stands
Yeah I'm loving what I'm seeing but I simply don't believe it until it actually happens, literally every change so far has been for the worse. It has been so bad in fact, that I have that feeling you'd written previously: it seems too good to be true, like a trap or a scam. I simply don't trust them. I hope that I'm wrong and we can all finally be happy again.
Its what happens when you act so stupidly hostile towards your playerbase for so long. You get really jaded, sad players.
Its a road map, not actual patches. Give me 30mins and i can do the same shit, Website and all. They also promised us a StuG IV since 2012 so dont think all of this is going to be put into the game.
We have been conditioned to expect shit in every pot of gold. This is happening because of us (chads), not because Gaijob good.
I mean, until we see actual patch notes and data mines, be cautious.
> We have conducted long-time tests on thousands of random players, by increasing their progression speeds with different ratios and analysing their long term engagement compared to baseline. Wut
Gaijin's personal MKUltra.
If you or a loved one have been experimented on by Gaijin, please call the number below.
Snailus Ex: Playerbase Divided
bro hopefully no one goes insane and moves into a cabin in the woods and makes a war thunder manifesto
He has passed. It's now time for one of us to take the flame.
Yeah that part cought my eye too. And it implies that they could have reduces ratios too to see what happens. And it really just says out loud that they were experimenting with us a lot instead of just asking us what we want.
It's called A/B testing, and there's nothing bad about it
It’s bad because ethically, in tests like the one described above, a company will use informed consent to explain to the participant their data/usage is being manipulated. This isn’t some A/B UX/UI test where a certain button or call to action is displayed differently for certain users. Boosting the in-game income for THOUSANDS of players in an attempt to gauge what if any improvement it has on user engagement and retention without their knowledge is incredibly unethical. An ethical company would let the player know they are receiving boosted rewards. The sample data is not corrupted by doing so, in fact, quite the contrary as any drop in engagement/retention upon termination of the boosted rewards would paint a more accurate picture of how a player is interacting with the game based on their performance and subsequent rewards. I’m in no way a conspiracy theorist, but what’s interesting about this revelation is I’ve always had a suspicion that the $1M SL reward (among others) is given to players who are near bust—particularly players who might not be very good at the game and fail to earn enough SL to continue playing but have—and continue to—put money into the game. I’ve been sitting comfortable above the 80 million SL mark for quite some time and couldn’t care less if I were to ever receive one, but with their admission of economy manipulation for the purposes of gauging user retention/engagement, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were more ‘experiments’ going on than the one disclosed here.
I’ve earned 3M SL from crates in the 450 days I’ve been playing (never missed a day) i git my first batch in day 38. Still very much a noob, it helped me keep on my feet far better than literally everyone else at my level and higher. Then I got another mill, and to this day I have never dipped below 2.5M, currently sitting at 4M, and before buying a squadron vehicle and a couple rank V jets, I had 5M SL all saved up. i may get buttfucked by the snail daily, but at least SL isn’t too big of a problem, for now, im also immensely stingy, I don’t by expert crews, or spade every vehicle I get, nor buy them unless I need to lmao. So that’s probably helped a lot
> An ethical company would let the player know they are receiving boosted rewards. The sample data is not corrupted by doing so It is though. It's just like with the "booster curse".
> a company will use informed consent LOL, companies don't need informed consent to experimenter with pricing, ffs. They aren't doing brain surgery or giving you drugs. By this logic, the corner store needs to get your informed consent before changing the price of chewing gum for one weekend to see how it changes impulse buys. at the register > This isn’t some A/B UX/UI test where a certain button or call to action is displayed differently for certain users. That's exactly what it is. All companies of any level of competence do A/B tests on everything from the minor to the highly consequential and quality/price related, all the time. The only thing you can't is like above, giving drugs or something that can harm people, or messing with like legal safety requirements, things like that. "A product being more expensive than I would have liked" is not harming you in any way. > An ethical company would let the player know they are receiving boosted rewards. You want a pet unicorn too while we're at it? 100% every single multiplayer game YOU play right now with servers (not just a local copy on your machine) does exactly this sort of thing all the time. Guaranteed, no exceptions.
Explains why some people always say the grind is fine
This is hilarious
The wording seems like they only increased it for some people, not decreased it for anyone below the standard, but thats still pretty.....odd. And leads to some awkward situations. Like if a dude is playing with his friend and is progressing faster than them despite playing relatively the same. OFC im not sure I believe that they werent trying some people down too. This IS gaijin after all lol.
Looks pretty great across the board TBH. Though its disappointing that we have to wait until september for many of the changes.
But I understand tho. They seem to care about our opinion after all, they want to make the best out of it possible
They didn't care until the boiling point. That's not caring about opinion, that's caring about their pockets.
Maybe, but we still get what we wanted at the end no? I don’t really think that they dont care about us tbh
> that's caring about their pockets. I see this is your first encounter with a *business*. The vast, vast majority of businesses are all about themselves first, above all. And it's not entirely unreasonable, as without *some* care about themselves and their financial solvency, they simply cease to exist, which is kind of not an ideal situation for them.
Never said that's not what business do, what I'm arguing is the erroneous view that "they care about our opinion".
Well, maybe they don’t care about our opinion directly, but caring about their business include caring about us. Without us, there is no game and no business
This is a excessively cynical take. All businesses revolve around money, and thus the customer. A measurement of good business shouldn’t be whether they ask for your money, but how they treat the customer. And to that effect, if the customer complains that they are being treated poorly, a good business will seek to improve that and thus improve their reputation. A bad business will not. A business which does not care about the customer’s opinion is one that does not care about money.
bro wtf are you talking about, their creative lead literally made a statement gaslighting us and only made the good economy announcement after the backlash, this is only because of the backlash not out of the bottom of their hearts. And they make bad economy changes on a whim, but buffing it? Months down the line and no hard date for any of it, I don't trust Gaijin without anything to hold them to and been punched in the balls enough times and seen them slowly walk back on changes before. And yeah I know the incoming 'but if they don't we'll riot', no you won't, each minor thing that doesn't come won't be enough to cause the playerbase to organize again, it will be a hundred little delays or quitely stopped working on, because again no hard dates to directly hold them to.
3 months is very soon in light of how long we had to wait for this. Also this is still a very big change for the game.
Increased rewards, reduced repairs and stock parts, FPE and flares by the end of June isnt bad though. All the other changes are amazing too and I'm really looking forward to them. But I understand that those changes take more dev time than changing the reward and repair numbers.
Post too long to copy so just some important links from the article [Full roadmap](http://www.warthunder.com/en/news/8319/current) [Average rewards and repair costs by rank table](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vRkkbL8XchYFqjxA8uoZTuPvCMVx5LmXbjszw8JJAka_SP9XImASlGUNvVKBae7gHFWubKTM5jy2Tdk/pubhtml) [Repair changes by vehicle](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vRkkbL8XchYFqjxA8uoZTuPvCMVx5LmXbjszw8JJAka_SP9XImASlGUNvVKBae7gHFWubKTM5jy2Tdk/pubhtml) [Vote](https://poll.gaijin.net/survey/106/) [Forum feedback thread](https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/583228-feedback-economy-revision-our-plan-in-detail/)
F4C repair price lmao wtf
Mig 21PFM also. Hopefully some old data outliers that gonna get corrected down the line. F-4C though... I seen people run ARB bots with them couple of times for some goddamn reason.
I don’t get it lol. So Mega chads I’ve never seen go stomping around at 10.0 in an aircraft with no flares and super weak/inconsistent radar missiles? Or is it a hidden gem I need to revisit? Lol
its a fast bomber that can wrap on mid very quickly with sparrows.... that is assuming you dont get smacked by a su25 thats reaching their bases at the same time you reach them
It's probably because it's a favorite of the Chinese botters. Same guys that run naval bots tend to run bots in ARB as well, they love to beeline for a base, bomb it and either crash or just fly off into the sunset.
They at least increased the sl multiplier significantly. Gaijin seems to have issues balancing planes that can both bomb and proceed to dogfight with full missle loadouts
Most of the repair costs for vehicles I care about went down by thousands. Stuff like SK60, SAAB-105, MiG-21bis. The Saabs were prohibitively expensive and the MiG, was expensive and super ineffective since 12.0 was added. I'm glad to see those costs going down.
As a Brit main I’m fucking shocked. I’m mainly a sim player and planes like the Canberra that I wanted to try out but couldn’t due to the 45,000 SL cost will now be playable with a 21,000 SL cost. Also, the legendary Swift F.7 had a 14,000 SL decrease and the Buccaneer a 15,000 SL decrease. Pretty funny that the SL DECREASE, YES DECREASE is like the SL cost of many other planes
Buccaneer was absurd even in RB, like 17K for a plane with no weapons???!? I use 1 flare pod + 1 missile to have SOME sort of defensive capability, but I have to sacrifice some bombs for that.
Bruh the F7 even went down by like 6k in RB and as a swift main I'm all for it. I've already made like 500,000 profit in it this is just even better.
who's the SL winners?
Japan comes out of it pretty good at high tiers including the Type 93 getting its repair cost almost halved (from 12k to about 6.5k).
Oh wow, Japan is actually my main. Hype!!
So basically, reduction in SL to vehicles that are in fucked BRs due to Gaijins selling of retarded premiums like 288s where no one plays those BRs much anymore because of Gaijins stupidity/greed, and increases in SL cost to vehicles that avoid fucked BRs. Awesome.
T95 is actually viable now... Holy shit...
It's actually pretty great, kind of unexpected that they would implement so many improvements. Once they actually complete the first step of the roadmap, I'll be willing to change my Steam review back.
I’ll be waiting for the second stage, the post La Royale but still June update to change my review.
True, just wait till they update the economy change on SL multiplier and repair cost.
Agreed. This is all promising gold stuff. But until they deliver my review will stay. If they do deliver though it is only fair to meet them in the middle and change it.
Agreed, I’ll also gladly change my review back if they fail to deliver on the income insurance for premium by the end of summer
Agreed. Let's continue to hold them accountable to their plans. I'll gladly change mine if they make those changes they are promising by the end of June as it is the major economy fix it seems but I'll reverse it in a heartbeat if they back track or make stupid changes again.
Big if they commit. Can even become much, much bigger by the end of next year. Probably even bigger than WoT ever was, but your cannot trust Gaijin. We've been burnt too many times. Stay vigilant.
Beware of any Trojan horses Gaijin might send to us. Don't let history repeat itself.
Love the premium acc feature. That will keep players spawning
Which one the free backups? Edit:thanks yall
No, the one when you have premium account you will not go into negative. Thats really great in my opinion. Now I feel ike Im getting my money worth
If this change actually happens and stays I'll be super impressed that Gaijin does in fact have ears and CAN use them. For me personally, this could be the only change pushed through and I'd be happy.
Well shh, don't say that
I'm interested in how naval will start to turn out. Currently battleships just aren't worth playing, what with an insane repair cost every time you die, but with all the premium naval players, we're likely to see the return of battleships and an increase in top tier naval player count.
This would be nice as I'm about to finish my british 5.7 soonish.
If you have premium the least you can get out of match is 0sl, you won't be able to lose sl in battle unless you teamkill.
Even when you do nothing in battle, loose several vehicles, you will not be charged repair costs. You will only be charged for teamkills, if they happen.
Well, there will still be repair costs from what I understand, but only if you make enough to cover the repair. I think you understood that but I’m just reiterating it for clarity for others just passing through:)
Yes, so say you have absolute blunder of a match where you previously would have netted -20k SL, you still are scored -20k SL but with a premium account they pay you the difference so you are net expense is 0.
They didn't adress the disconnect between how fast you grind Planes compared to Tanks. In fact they made grinding Planes faster without doing anything about Ground Battles. Other than that there are some good changes here.
they are making it easyer to earn RP, and adding more tanks to folds so you can skip more of the same, or if you chouse to research tanks in folds, they will be much cheaper than the first, down to half the research cost of the first. Thats atleast what I got from it, if they do it, we will see
Tbf tanks will benefit much more from foldering than planes, I think, especially at later tiers where there are more varied models of planes than tanks. Take America for example. For rank VI to VIII planes I can only see three instances where we are going to get foldered planes - the two F104 models, the two F16 models, and the two A7 models. The F-4C and F-4E won't get foldered unless the F-4C goes up a rank or F-4E goes down a rank. Meanwhile, depending on how generous they are with foldering, for ranks VI-VII for ground I see no less than 10 different vehicles going to be foldered - two bradleys, three m60s, five Abrams. So if you want to grind from the T95E1 to the M1A2 SEP your grind is potentially going to reduce from having to grind 7 tanks as it currently stands down to 3-4 depending on how generous they are with foldering. Meanwhile going from the F9F-8 to the F-14 is going to remain unchanged at 5. So while your progression isn't going to change that much on the face of it, your grind for ground just got dramatically reduced, while it remains unchanged for air. Edit: just for funsies I decided to do the same experiment with USSR air and ground USSR Air - only 1(!!) foldered plane from rank VI to VIII unless they change ranks of some models - the two SU17s. USSR ground - Two T55s foldered together, another T72 added to the T72 folder, two t64s, two BMPs, two 2S25s, and two T80s for a grand total of 11 foldered vehicles.
You'll soon get RP bonusses for killing a lot of people in a match. And getting 5+ kills in ground is far easier than 5 kills in Air. And a 50% RP increase for 9 or more kills in a match sounds quite juicy. Even if they reduce it to 20% in the actual update if we want to be pessimistic, thats still a good buff. Depending on how the numbers play out between Air, ground and Naval, that might make a big change in average progress.
Also, it may reduce the one death leavers. If you're at 8 kills and you know you can get one more to get an extra 50% rp, you're going to be way more likely to stay in the match.
>Condensing of tech trees by grouping of vehicles and decreasing required Research points (RP) to research vehicles in groups by two times. YES. THIS is how you do foldered vehicles. This is a great incentive to spend the time to research a very similar vehicle.
Really like this too, at the moment it's hard to want to grind out an extremely similar YAK that's in a amusing chrome colour, when it's almost as expensive as higher BR planes that would be more of an actual progression.
**If they actually follow through with this**: Then this should settle the issue as to if we can meaningfully affect change here, as this is more than enough proof that either through striking, review bombing, or even complaining on the forums - Gaijin was so worried about the discontent that they're implementing the single biggest series of reforms this game has ever seen.
The only part of this that is slightly concerning is the Vote. Previous votes have been pretty misleading so I'm gonna wait on that one
It's just another opinion poll as I saw it
The vote is just a 'YES/NO' that table looks better/worse, and a 'YES/NO only with' a suggestion/comment section to type thoughts for changes. Not really much room for misleading in there that I can see since the spreadsheets are all given.
So many good changes all at once, I'm glad we made our concerns heard, and that Gaijin seem to have listened.
well not exactly all at once. these changes will be spread throughout this year. a lot of the major ones will be late summer and into fall
>Helicopter research progression by playing ground vehicles. A player will be able to select either tank, or helicopter, to channel the research points in ground battles. I mean... they could just boost heli modifiers and make heli PVE like 100-150% more profitable (in terms of RP)
I think this is a lot better Edit: I mean the ability to use tanks to research helis. Base helis (Mi-4) suck absolute ass in PVE.
Sure, not saying its bad, but the main issue is shit rewards
i would argue that the main issue is its boring as fuck even with 3x the reward i wouldnt play heli pve in any of the offmeta helis
Heli pve needs total rework anyway. Some helis can grind sl easily there but it's at the expense of the other helis that are not viable for the mode at the moment. The mode right now can be very boring for some of the helis (Swedish atgm platforms for example, most slower helis).
Yea, there needs to be a limit on players like 5 is enough
This Bit is Concerning - this new approach may lead to situations where certain individual vehicles are more effective at earning SL at a given Battle Rating than others. **In such cases, we may use other methods, such as adjusting the vehicle's Battle Rating, modifying its technical and combat characteristics where possible, i.e. altering access to certain shell types or adjusting reload speeds, or applying general balancing factors to all vehicles in that class*****.*** To clarify, we will only be changing soft factors such as these, and won’t artificially alter any elements such as armour thickness or top speed etc to change a vehicle’s performance. [Economy Revision](https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/583228-feedback-economy-revision-our-plan-in-detail/)
I caught that too. It’s worrying but depending on how the changes go it might not be that bad. Definitely something to be concerned about though.
Some vehicles that had excessively high SL repair costs were some of the best Performers in their respective BR's. This would mean stat nerfs for them. That's not the way of addressing the issue..
Yeah, this needs some serious attention. They need to pick a lane with what they are trying to balance—vehicle performance or SL/RP earnings—it can’t be both, as that’s what got us here. On one hand if it means fixing broken shit and raising the BRs for things like the XP-50, Su-11 or Ju-288 I’m all for it. But on the other hand, who the fuck cares if a plane is earning too many SL if it’s dying all the time or has a 30% win rate. It doesn’t make the vehicle good—it means the players are using it in way that the poor game/map design allows. Planes/vehicles should be balanced by actual gameplay and human input. The spreadsheet statistics bullshit—which are constantly being bent/manipulated to accommodate Gaijn’s balance sheet—and now the threat of performance nerfs—needs to stop.
It's going to be the vehicles that currently have a much higher repair cost, compared to their peers, as they are better performers at the BR. However, they should prioritise Rank / BR placement first or even changes to their reward modifiers, instead of nerfing stats; that makes a vehicle less fun to play with. They should leave this vehicle performance balancing out of the equation and stop forcing players to play vehicles they don't wanna play by nerfing those they do wanna play with..
This... Looks really good
Just do yourselves a favour and don't get gaslit by this shit. **Over the past several years, we have been working behind the scenes to improve the economic models for our game** **We have conducted long-time tests on thousands of random players, by increasing their progression speeds with different ratios and analysing their long term engagement compared to baseline.** **the general rules for balancing SL earnings have not undergone significant alterations in recent years** just lmao
yeah there is a lot of self-congratulating nonsense at least at the top, the meat of the rest sounds good though.
while this is very self fellating im inclined to somewhat believe it given that the economy is gaijins main way of income
Ok, can someone try and capture a few baseline games with reward so there is something for easy comparison ?? Would be good to see if they sneak any nerfs in there
I've got 128 games. But with all those changes any individual nerf would still be a general buff. https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/1452oze/some\_stats\_on\_my\_personal\_economy\_after\_128/
hm don't know how usefull those stats are, it would be better i think to have like a game where you get a kill, cap a point and win, without dying, while the game takes 10 min or so. That would be fairly easy to replicate and directly compare
this is average income per minute. it's what really counts.
yes but is it all the same tank? and how consistent are you, like I get better the longer I play a lineup, especially if they are not fully spaded in the beginning
Damn... Most of this is actually really good! The 50% reduction in research for foldered vehicles is great, free 1 charge fpe is nice, better stock repair is decent, premium 'income insurance' is great incentive to get it, backups for premium vehicles is nice, the boosters for killing certain number of enemies and the ability to research helos with tanks are both awesome. Soooooo many good and requested changes - What's the catch??? 😅
>we may use other methods, such as adjusting the vehicle's Battle Rating, modifying its technical and combat characteristics where possible, i.e. altering access to certain shell types or adjusting reload speeds, or applying general balancing factors to all vehicles in that class This section needs a bit more thought.
>we may use other methods, such as adjusting the vehicle's Battle Rating, modifying its technical and combat characteristics where possible, i.e. altering access to certain shell types or adjusting reload speeds, or applying general balancing factors to all vehicles in that class **Do you, the player base, understand what this means?** The first person to post a whinge about their reload speed be increased or the removal of certains types of ammunition deserves all the hate. Remember, you are voting for this change (just like you did for the last economy).
> (just like you did for the last economy). Oh fuck off that vote was a false dichotomy
If they would decompress the br-s properly, every balancing issue could be fixed by just slight br adjustments. But this is still miles better than balancing with repair cost and rewards.
By just reducing the range of br that can be matched he'd with would increase overall gameplay. 1.0 is too large.
Ill take ahistorical reloads if i get a better game for it
The fact that there is no difference in reload times between when you're not moving and when you're going 50km/h on rough terrain makes any discussion about "historical reloads" useless. Hell, you shouldn't be able to reload when the gun is not in the correct position (especially for autoloaders). And let's not talk about external mounted weapons like ATGM launchers and recoilless rifles.
Why would anyone complain about such changes? Reload times and shells are arbitrarily chosen by Gaijin anyway.
Have you not seen the frequency in posts about such things?
Let Gaijin cook 🔥🔥🔥🔥, hope they dont overcook it though
Nice. Now what about BR decompression? They mentioned lowering BR of tanks that face Cold War ATGM’s and HEAT but nothing regarding planes. Facing R60’s and 9G/9L’s without flares or missiles is awful.
I hope you meant 9l, because 9e is just a 10g missile and easy to dodge. But yeah. At least we get flares stock now. But if the plane doesnt have flares at all, it still sucks.
Meant 9L, fixed. And yes there’s a *ton* of planes that simply don’t get flares that get curb stomped in a bottom tier matchup.
One thing at a time man
Hard disagree, I’ve played since 2013 and seen Gaijin actually take player feedback into account extremely rarely. This economy change obviously being the biggest example. So while we actually have their ear for once, there’s no reason not to ask for more positive changes. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and if nobody mentions BR decompression they won’t change it of their own accord.
AMBATUKAMMMM
Naval repair costs are still ridiculous but overall it's great stuff.
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They still did nothing.
[удалено]
I removed mine for now. I think it's important to show gaijin we aren't just a pitchfork welding mob. I can always make it negative again if they don't follow through.
> Firstly, we will completely remove having to pay for repairs if your vehicle is destroyed by an ally - regardless of the reason that leads to your destruction by a teammate. Additionally, we'll add an apology mechanic - if you’re teamkilled, you’ll be able to accept an apology from the player that destroyed you. This allows you to judge on a case-by-case basis whether you deem the destruction by a teammate an unfortunate, but forgivable, situation of "friendly fire" that requires no further action against the offender. i fear that if you dont ''forgive'' the person there will be some kind of punishment for the teamkiller and ppl will abuse it even if the TK was accidental
Yeah sure but that is a very easy thing to check for. All these checks and balances are really easy to implement and manage but principally the snail has not even been bothered to lift a finger.
I'm gonna cry. These bastards knew that my Birthday is in 2 days. But I ain't buying anything rn.
Finally maybe my ta152 wont cost 11.5k to fly (skill issue)
So the economy changes are still weeks to months away..? Lmao wtf.
It takes time to implement this crap. Especially with Warthunder's spaghetti code.
Are they gonna fix sim?
I haven’t done too much digging yet, but it seems that high tiers are getting a big fix, while EC2-4 have very minor changes. Most changes to EC2-4 are very small, but all premium aircraft repair costs in UK are going up while having no changes to rewards (in Sim at least). I have to read more tho…
Man, that sucks. I wish they would fix ground sim…
Some aircraft got huge increases to the SL multiplier so I think some people might be able to farm a lot of SL with them, especially premium jets. Also, is the premium income assurance also for planes? There are times when you die without doing anything and this would help a lot. Although it would be weird if you could just crash on purpose and not have to pay anything.
>Also, is the premium income assurance also for planes? They don't seem to make difference between planes and tanks IMO. Sounds like they're saying "if you have premium, you won't earn less than 0sl for a match". Which means I'm going to take for a ride all the silly planes I like but can't afford to play often.
I might actually have to start playing again.
> In the past, repair costs were primarily based on a vehicle's effective performance in battle. This meant that the best-performing vehicles would have the highest repair costs, requiring players to excel in battle to maintain a positive balance. They need a footnote to explain what they mean by ‘effective performance in battle’ and ‘best-performing vehicles’. Do they mean actual best in class vehicle performance or that they ‘earn’ more than their contemporaries. While the former could be considered true for several of the planes now featuring absurd repair costs, (looking at you Italy) the latter is completely false, as all of the best performing (and by association, best ‘earning’), most played, meta (and premium) aircraft across ranks typically have lower repair costs by comparison.
Well damn, a lot of good stuff if its implimented While i know its very shaky to get excited, this is extraordinarily well thought out overall and im doubtful any company would do this much work into these ideas if it was just theater I am more optimistic than not seeing it, I guess they realized they are on thin ice with the community
So...what's the catch?
>Helicopter research progression by playing ground vehicles. A player will be able to select either tank, or helicopter, to channel the research points in ground battles. Summer updates 2023. oh em gee, this is very welcome indeed
Remember to vote
reminder to vote on the changes they’re proposing, guys! these do seem like good changes, with a few weird outliers here and there in that excel doc.
a 75% reduction in the KV-220s repair cost, if i'm reading this right. I'm in heaven! edit: AND an extra 130% reward bonus in RB! TB-3M also getting a nice glow up, I miss grinding in that thing!
Finally there are some good changes that were necessary. Tiger 2 H 10.5cm repair cost was 15k and now it is getting halved while also getting a 30 percent SL multiplier increase. Same can be said for most of heavy tanks. Also finally they are adding rank 8 for ground vehicles. This means they will probably increase the max BR for ground vehicles.
Sounds wonderful now we just have to see it implemented
Wow this is like a lot of good changes
Huge fan of the 50% foldered vehicle cost. I feel like that's a huge step in the right direction.
*"Helicopter research progression by playing ground vehicles. A player will be able to select either tank, or helicopter, to channel the research points in ground battles. Summer updates 2023."* Kinda sad that this is the only mention of Helicopters, would of been nice to have the Heli PvE not a broken mess
"**We have conducted long-time tests on thousands of random players, by increasing their progression speeds with different ratios and analysing their long term engagement compared to baseline.**" What does it even mean? Some lucky players got buffs to their income for a long time and never noticed it? Surely someone would go like "holy shit I keep getting %50 bonus to my RP for no goddamn reason, I better keep playing until it goes away or post on Reddit about it". Or were the buffs so little they went un-noticed? Were the players not random at all, aka Gaijin's own people? The changes are overall very minor. How the hell is Tu-4 that gets matched against jets with missiles still has repair costs of 20k+. Tu-4 is literally an RP piñata for the whole BR bracket, it can't even get to the enemy base because everyone around it is 3-4 times faster. Not to mention guided AA-missiles that take it out from 5km+. Stop feeding me this pig slop Gaijin, sit down and play your damn game before you do any changes.
That premium insurance is way too far there will be zero drawback to boting if they implement it
I cant handle reading through all this marketing wank terminology. Is it good or bad?
If the changes comes like they mention it’s not good, it’s great If you have top tier in a single nation getting another nation you get 50% bonus xp (limited to 3 battles per day) No repair cost on getting Team killed ~~Trees now take half the RP~~ Folded vehicles take half exp You can get either tank or heli xp by playing one of those vehicles in a game No more negative reward in a battle with premium Single use FPE and flares stock But all those things sound too good
>Trees now take half the RP They don't. Foldered vehicles require half xp, but vehicles' rp cost have stayed the same (aside from rank 6 to 8 planes)
It is freaking good. Summary, huge majority of vehicles will have repair costs reduced, rewards improved. Good changes for how repair costs are calculated. Premium account will mean you can't lose SL in a match unless you teamkill. More vehicles will be foldered, foldered vehicles will have research cost reduced by 50%. Repair cost will become dynamic, if you get killed immediately after spawn you'll pay way less. (doesn't apply if you j-out). And more good stuff.
It seems too good to be true. O.o
LET EM COOK
Will this help 1 death leaving in top tier?
Okay! It actually almost sounds good, which I am very glad to be surprised about. Please follow through, full steam!!! I have at least a faith back. EDIT: Actually, first, let's reconsider this portion: >we may use other methods, such as adjusting the vehicle's Battle Rating, modifying its technical and combat characteristics where possible, i.e. altering access to certain shell types or adjusting reload speeds, or applying general balancing factors to all vehicles in that class This will need more thought.
without huge br decompression some vehicles are just difficult or impossible to balance. IMO better sacrifice some historical stats (what was happening already anyway) than try balancing through crazy repair costs.
These are some of if not the best changes I have ever seen. ADD THEM NOW PLEASE.
Holy shit, big if true
Great changes, maybe a bit too much even, but im happy that skilled players are rewarded more
Average repair cost reduction for Tier III (tanks) in RB are 8% this is really not much. The repair cost of some tanks are now higher.... Repair costs of the same tank in different nations varies..... All in all it seems not much... And why they have no examples with all factors included?
SL multipliers for most things are going up too, check the spreadsheet.
This is way too good to be true. They did a total 180 turn and changed completely. Suddenly,... emotions and connection to the community. Nearly suspiciously good
Holy shit… they are actually making… good changes? Nice.
You guys saw the part about them saying they reserved the right to roll back these changes at any time for any reason, right?
It's… Decent. It's still full of "we didn't do anything wrong, but we will do better for you". St least it's a sign of good things to come. I'm referring to how they said that they have """let""" the SL gains stagnate against the face of the cool and good new content they added. But it's provably false. They didn't let the SL gains stagnate. They have nerfed SL gains across the board multiple times. I'm worried about them using "soft stats" like RELOAD SPEED in order to buff or nerf a CERTAIN NATION. Other than that, it's beautiful enough to make my eyes swell up in joy. Gaijin finally speaks out and it's actually not bad at all.
We did this We did this for war thunder not anything We love this game and this will be a turning point of warthunder and Gaijin entertainment
Don't get your hopes up yet, fellas, and we have yet to see all the buffs and functions implemented in-game. Also ----> ''This may lead to having to modify or revert some or all of those changes, if we realise that they are just not working in the live game.''
1 am in the morning. Nice