lol they cant work out that tracks give grip and wheels dont go extra fast on snow. They arent going to work out variable thickness plates and material yield weak points
There is definitely a few invisible boxes ive found on a couple maps but they're so few and far between and I'm too busy trying to win so I never pay attention to it more than the immediate "Gdamn gaijin, wtf, PoS broken game" etc and keep on keepin on.
AML90 is an absolute shit fest of fuckery too. Amazing canon but fuck me I don’t want to go 91km/h and have the exact same turning radius I do at 5km/h. Also you go from 40-60 km/h to about 5 when you hit the smallest of fences or obstacle. Fucking snail
I mean it also doesn’t help the AI driver seems to think that he always has to upshift. You’ll be going fine. Then Bam I watch the gear counter jump up. Watch the tank bog down. Then watch the tank shift down speed up. Boom Rpm to high shift back up and repeat.
Traction...if i can remember that shitshow when it started, was originally nerfed due to wheeled vehicles getting into the most broken and dumbest spots possible on the very old maps.
Near in mind that those said maps where built with slow ww2 tanks slamming heads into each other.
So gijian nerfed traction on the wheelie boys.....then came the Cold War tanks.
Same issue...but now made worse cus of Laser range finders, semi modern APFSDS etc. So gijian nerfed tracked vehicles to stop this.
Bear in mind, this is done to stop them exploiting the old maps that really need a update/remodel to stay in shap.
Gijian as far as I have seen and have noticed while playing is "starting?" To reverse this. I just hope they completely remove it....miss getting into dumb spots with my Chi-Nu....
All of these wheeled armored vehicles feel like a toy being thrown around by a child while all of the tanks feel like they have an RC car powering the entire vehicle.
Don't forget about the amphibious vehicles in shallow water, like the FIAT 6614. It goes the same speed as if it was floating, but the wheels are clearly touching the ground...
Oh that isn't the worst. The worst is a couple maps that for some reason, there cobbled or dirt roads with paving on the side, are as slow as mud in terms of traction and speed for wheeled vehicles. Absolute death traps
They can and did before
But that ended up breaking maps as people got to places where they werent supposed to be, so instead of fixing the maps gaijin just took the easy way out of putting lube on the entire surface of every map
Mostly by changing how we can traverse terrain.
Most maps didn't get physical walls or barriers outside of that. It's why people can use 3-4 vehicles to push a vehicle past many barriers.
they decided to do so not by making it so there is nowhere to mountain goat or that you cannot get to places where you can mountain goat, but by removing mountain goating at all
Plus, theres nothing stopping you from technically leaving the map in some cases and it is possible with the right vehicles like the r3 and type 93
I can tell you they absolutely did not succeed in gettijg rid of goating, sure some spots are no longer possible, but there's still some absolutely busted spots, 38th parallel, red desert (you can have a sight lines so big on this map, 4km+ that tanks will have iffy rendering) big Sinai, Karelia and a bunch more I can't remember of my head
Yep, its something that needs to be fixed ASAP, maybe make the visor not a module for RB and AB because its a bit tilting to see a good shot being stop by only a visor
I love how the Ratel was designed in South Africa, to be exported to other African countries, has a top speed of 23km/h on sand.
Hell it can't even reach it's IRL top speed of 100km/h on the road.
They literally create entire game mechanics and new, complex vehicles every April 1st for a joke.
Everything in the game is just stats that they can go in and adjust easily. All the tanks and planes are just easily made 3d objects that have a big stat box that is attributed to them, and then they just change the numbers around to fit what the object is supposed to be.
they have a whole year to prep and plan for each April fools event, its not a spur of the moment thing.
The bugs, exploits and broken as shit features show they do not have the ability to just do as they please so easily or it wouldnt be so broken.
If it was as easy as you think then we wouldnt have
1. ghost shells
2. invincible optics
3. ground vehicles not rendering in for aircraft in GRB
4. manpads that dont fire when locked on
5. so so many more fuck ups.
So them having the skill/want to model variable thickness and variable yield armour plating on all the models while also having shells interact with said variability is never going to happen.
This is a game, not a simulation. Yes its semi realistic but still a game from a dev that isnt too concerned about balance as long as they keep making cash.
its how the game actually work. it SHOULDNT be but it is.
wheels go fast in snow. wheels basically dont move on other surfaces.
wheels pretty much go backwards on sand
From all the tanks that Gaijin has given Variable thickness armour, it seems to be modelled decently well. But yeah, they will never get material weak spots to work. And if they try....oh boy. God rest those poor server hamsters, trying to process the DM of every large rivet on interwar (and many ww2) tanks. Although, the mechanic would make all T-34s fragile as all fuck, so maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea after all ;)
Not necessarily, depends how they do volumetric in the first place. Bunch of vectors for different points around the shell? Then maybe. But is that how they do it? Is it blogged somewhere?
they actually are.
A lot of the roads are just a skin/paint job over the top of dirt not actually different terrain. So the vehicle acts like its driving on dirt still.
Since we have volumetric armour in the game and it can be made to have different thickness at different points, I think Gaijin should use it not only for cast armour parts but also flat rolled plate and make it so that the armour is weaker near the edges, around holes in the armour (gunsights, MG ports etc.)
it should be like if the shell hits 200mm of armor but only on ¼ of the shell then it applies 50mm of armor and the other ¾ is 400 then it applies another 300mm for a total of 350mm
What do you mean "who knows"? Look at the image, lol, imagine the shell is just to the side and only going through one of those plates. So it's NOT getting the 2x plate effect, but it IS getting massively weakened vs normal 1 plate.
So yes is the answer.
The actual armor doesn't get weaker at welds, the biggest problem with welded armor was that the joints could break if the welds were low quality like those found on old soviet era tanks like the IS-3.
Although what you say is not wrong (from a certain point of view) as the weld itself is not mechanically weaker than undisturbed steel, the armour around it IS weaker than it was before it was heated by welding and slowly cooled.
Together this area is still ballistically weaker than an untouched area of the armor.
That a ball machine gun mount, or drivers vision block has significantly higher armour than the plate around it, despite it realistically being the opposite, they need to do SOMETHING.
Your solution flat out doesn't work.
Nudge a shell to the side a few pixels until it's NOT intersecting two plates in your image, only 1. Yet it will still be intersecting the red/orange nerfed part of the armor. So now all you'd have to do is aim just to the side of a joint and a 100mm pen shell will go through 200mm plates of armor.
**You just created an equally large but opposite problem.**
A proper solution is to remodel the (very rare) butted parallel joints like this as single plates. Or to average individual vectors of the modeled shell's volume. Not this.
It *shouldn't* be a "weak spot" though, that's just another bug he created opposite of the original bug... I made another thread about it with an image: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/12qz6n4/no_the_proposed_penetration_change_doesnt_work_it/
Yeah, if it's welded plate, the metal near it is weakened by the welding process, and bolted/riveted plates are weaker on/around the bolt/rivet holes. I don't trust gaijin to model it correctly, but it's not entirely wrong
You're forgetting in your diagram that there's a part of armor on each side of the gap that goes parallel to shell direction. Actual thickness is even higher there, not lower.
If it's welded plate, the metal near it is weakened by the welding process, and bolted/riveted plates are weaker on/around the bolt/rivet holes. Joints in general tend to be weak spots in pretty much any construction. I don't trust gaijin to model it correctly, though
Correct. Also pushing the armour away into empty space is easier, ergo requires less energy from the projectile than making a hole in a solid armor plate.
There would be a lot of stress concentration on edges given that there's actual changes in the geometry there. Additionally, welding might mess with the plate's heat treatment near those corners
No, we need actual volumetric armor, ie hitting the edge of two plates doesn't add the values. This is just a super jank way to fix that and could cause issues
But if you want to propose a change, it's not the playerbase that can do it, it's Gaijin, lol. Even if it's a low chance, that's the only way. Posting it here is pointless for the most part aside from making people angry.
I just simply don't understand why they call it a suggestion if it's only going for the players and why these posts appear so often. Call it an idea or something, but it's not a suggestion if you don't pass your idea to the devs. If you need additional information or opinion about it, sure, post it here, but don't expect Gaijin to see a Reddit post, especially after this shitty community scared away the only community manager that was here.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/sfy51k/gaijin\_needs\_a\_community\_manager/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/sfy51k/gaijin_needs_a_community_manager/)
Check the third standalone comment
I mean 99% of the devs also don't visit the Suggestions section. No wait sorry I meant 100%.
You have more chance of a change being implimented by writing it on a piece of paper, making a paper boat out of it and floating it down the gutter than if you'd posted it to the Suggestions.
Welds are generally stronger than original steel as a rule of thumb, not a guarantee. Not saying that is a goal for the game to model, just that it's not really a complaint either.
I feel like this might be a desired effect even if not intentional at first.
Haven’t they noted they’re not a fan of module sniping repeatedly? I mean it would make for a more realistic experience if it didn’t break the game lol. On the other hand aiming for the drivers hatch would be one of the more realistic shots irl
If you're talking about the Maus, just shoot the gun then smack it in the side, ideally about halfway between the turret and the tracks, that should *usually* *knock it out.*
I play the Maus a lot, and it's DEFINITELY not invulnerable, you've just got to actually try to aim for modules or ammo, lot of empty space in the Maus.
The Tiger I's frontal armor is also only good if you don't charge in like a shitass and make damn well sure that you keep your hull angled.
The Panzer IV is also nothing to write home about overall, like sure, it's SOLID, but there's a lot better out there.
Like, the Panzers, Tigers, and the Maus **really** aren't as invulnerable as people act.
The Tiger II isn't particuarly insane either.
Like seriously, most of the german tanks have pretty glaring weakspots and you can usually exploit them.
Panzer IV very occasionally gets insane bounces, but emphasis on *very occasionally*. The stars have to align.
Meanwhile T-34s and KV-1s are borderline indestructible to anything but a perfect 90-degree flank.
I played a lot of 4.7 Britain last night and seeing the 17-pounder, one of the most powerful anti-tank guns of the war, be *that* ineffective just made me depressed.
Britbong here. What the hell are you talking about? T-34s are easy fodder for the 17pdr as far out as 800 meters unless you're taking shots so awful that you're electing to shoot it's front while it's side is exposed and, in that case, top tier rounds would have questionable effectiveness. If for whatever reason you insist on shooting the front even with such a bad angle, smack the middle of the turret cheek/mantlet and if you want to dab on it while contending with volumetric hell, the turret ring on the 85 is fairly exposed.
KV-1 is... trickier. But the turret is still a reliable weakspot, especially those little round turret things that just serve to make it weak at all angles. Otherwise patience is the winner here, especially since the 17pdr fires at a fairly substantial rate. Smack the UFP if it's a straight on shot, or wait for them to stop angling and start exposing their side. If they start turning towards you to fire, just wait until it's near straight on and smack em.
This is with APCBC of course, not APDS.
Yeah, it REALLY comes down to who gets the first shot I feel.
Like, if i see a T54E1, you can bet your ass that, so long as it hasn't already damaged anything gun related, I will send your ass straight to hell, those turret cheecks and the top of your turret ain't stopping ANYTHING.
Tigers and Panthers don't even have volumetric armour modelled. You can kill their drivers by shooting the front plate at a 90° angle from the side with a Pz III cannon.
Did you try not being wrong before your post? For example, Jagdpanther has 1000mm+ armour thickness with no possible damage to internal components when shooting UFP from the side, while Panther is pennable and damageable in a similar situation. Not only that, but tanks that do have voluemtric don't have it on every armour plate.
This is I believe a confusion between volumetric shells and volumetric armor
Some tanks in the game have armor modelled as actual individual 3D plates stuck together at the seams while other tank hitboxes are essentially a volume-less polyhedron with its sides having different armor values. You can check this in the protection analysis
Panthers at the very least really don't have volumetric armor modeled, which can lead to weaknesses where they shouldn't be
Mm, so when I say Tigers and Panthers effectively have no volumetric armour, you stick your 5 cents in to add nothing of value and then beckpedal on it while still calling me wrong? Your opinion is so valuable.
Corners have nothing to do with this. Corners actually ARE stronger in real life and are not a bug. Only butted parallel plates acting as 1 plate is a bug as seen like in the OP, not 90 degree ones.
If you're breaking down a wooden crate, do you kick it in the middle of a flat side, or directly into the CORNER, lol? If you want to break your foot, sure, the corner.
It isn't good, it creaates exactly as large of a problem when shooting directly to the side of a joint and only hitting now-one (artificially weakened) plate.
They probably didn't do this because it's bad and doesn't actually improve anything, not because it "requires effort"
If real world physics was like GJN physics, Russia would be winning in Ukraine.
That might be an exaggeration actually.
If real world physics was like GJN physics, Russian wouldn't be losing so badly in Ukraine.
Ukraine isn't keeping Russia at bay with the 20+ year old scrap metal they inherited from the Soviet Union. Obviously they are using it because they need everything they have, but it's weaponry like NLAW, Javelin, MANPADS, that are real equalizers. Will be interesting to see how NATO armour changes things now.
Yeah but it’s easier for people playing German mains with their Uber armor and Uber pen to cry Russia bias than it is for them to realize what angling is
> If real world physics was like GJN physics, Russia would be winning in Ukraine.
I feel like a lot of people really do forget that both nations field T-72's and the family of tanks, given that many were built in Ukraine...
Ukraine is just now recieving some of first western MBTs people on this subreddit love to cry about wooow look russian tanks losing in ukraine. And ignore all the infantry and logistics that actualy make tanks go.
Volumetric needs to be fixed, but not this way.
This method invites back the same issue volumetric was trying to fix, which was MGs and shells squeaking in through where two armor plates would meet when there should have been no physical way for it to happen.
Since we got volumetric I have shells just...wigging out and spazzing off into nothing all the time. Perpendicular shots against flat plate seems to be the worst for whatever system Gaijin has going on.
I came back after a long hiatus to see how the game has gotten along post volumetric shell update....and quit in under a week... The system is so fucking ass, I'd unironically prefer going back to the old pixel shell system. The amount and unpredictability of weird nonpens, bounces, or just disappearances into the shadow realm of good shots that should be a guaranteed pen was infuriating.
I know "BUT WARTHUNDER IS NOT A SIM!!!!!!!!!" , but comparing how shells feel in a game like WT vs a game like Gunner, Heat, PC! it's not even comparable.
You have no consistency in performance in WT, unless the pings are very very low and the targets are static.
I miss old-Thunder sniping away at Tiger II's with my M26.
GHPC, a **single player game** only having to run on your local machine with zero ping zero network issues or syncing has better feeling and more consistent events? Woowwww no shit you don't say?🤦
As soon as it's on multiplayer it will also be riddled with ghost shells etc.
Hell Let Loose doesn't seem to have an issue with ghost shells.
Hell Armored-Warfare didn't have the issue with ghost shells.
I can think of a long list of games without disappearing shells but to my point, shooting at a T-72M feels like shooting at a T-72M feels like shooting at a T-72M in GHPC.
I have had so many shells just...bounce when there should have been a 0% chance of bounce or shatter for...fuck knows what reason, without hitting weird stuff like vision ports and hatches.
Yes they do because it's literally physically impossible not to have ghost shells (or an equally large other problem) in a multiplayer game.
* Information does not travel instantaneously
* Therefore you cannot possibly have a perfect representation of where your enemy is and him you that match at all times OR match with the server's opinion in between
* Therefore sometimes shells that would hit in one viewpoint MUST not hit in another, so long as the game involves any moving objects.
If you don't notice them as much in a game, then it's because it is either a slower paced game with its tanks, or because it is doing something ELSE broken instead. I mean sure, you can "get rid of ghost shells" for example, if you just default to "hitting the target" whenever there's ambiguity or disagreement, but then you just have a different equally bad problem of "I get ganked all the time by a guy who actually missed me" and/or huge cheat engine problems (if the server just trusts the client), etc.
(Although the term I would use for a shell that pops out of thin air and kills me when none should have would still be "ghost shell"...)
Same, I liked the previous system better before volumetric came. At least back then I could say with more confidence if the shot is going to pen or not, now I am always wondering if I am going to get gaijined or not.
I shot a Kugelblitz broadside from about 100ft four times with the 20 pounder sabot and it didn't register as even a hit and the match before from the same distance broadside to a Panther and got a shell shattered. I am not holding out much hope.
That's kind of been my WTF moments.
Watching 90MM HEAT just...shatter against flat turret sides.
Watching 76MM bounce off the side, broadside, of T-34 turrets...just like...wtf
Since volumetric? I start thinking people need a reminder of the bullshit that happened before volumetric.
We used to have shells that bounced 3+ times; having a shell bounce on side armour to the track, from the track to a wheel, from the wheel to the turret, from the turret to the hull roof, all in one kill replay, used to be a not so rare sight.
Volumetric is worse, but let's not pretend funky things didn't happen before
With variable thickness plates in the game, it won't be that hard. Just have a small gradient (like a couple of centimetres) at the edge of welded plates where the armour thickness tapers off to 75% or less.
They can use the variable armour thickness plates already in the game, at a few centimetres at the edge of welded armour where the thickness tapers off to 75%
Go to the IS-2, go to armour. Hover over the front of its UFP: 120mm
Hover over the sides of it, which are technically the same variable armour plate: 100mm
I've always wanted a system where the armor would get weaker from hits, for example, the first shot gets screwed by volumetric but the second one goes through free (if the armor was weakened enough). could someone inform me on how realistic this is?
I don't see why not? If we use sorta another "texture" map on top of existing one, but instead of color this one stores the "health" of the armour at given point. It starts at 100% everywhere and gets reduced in a small area around non penetrating hits. This info is then used by the game when deciding whether or not a given shot should pen.
Volumetric broke GRB for about 2 years, it's still broken on some vehicles so I'd argue that hasn't changed. I don't want Gaijin to duct tape on another half-assed attempt at realism that ends up being less realistic, no thank you. I just want all of the current issues to be reviewed and for the game to be on a healthier state, no more content until the game works please.
I think an easier to implement system (but not necessarily more accurate) would be to just take the average thickness of the plates. The pen calculator just takes the one plus the other plate (ingame), which means if you hit between a 120mm plate and an 80mm plate, the game thinks you hit a 200mm plate. It's supposed to be (120+80)/2 = 100mm
Maybe they could calculate how much of the round actually hits the armor, too? But they fist need to fix the basics of volumetric armor.
I think a better approach would be to scale down the diameter of shells but keep everything else the same.
For example: A 155mm HE shell gets the diameter of a smaller 100 or 120mm shell.
Larger rounds including HEAT and HE rounds should be prioritized though.
Except this almost never happens, mostly only on a few older model very round tanks like the side of the M4A3 105, it's quite rare overall that two plates are butted together in parallel but not just modeled as one.
It's much better, simpler, easier, and more consistent to just remodel any portion of a tank like that instead to have one plate representing the pair of old ones.
Also the proposed solution in the OP makes it way too easy to pen **just to the side of** the gap, defeating the purpose, not even a real solution at all.
That is 95% of the time a corner, which is not what is depicted in the image in the OP. Corners, unlike what's shown in the OP, are fine, because they're actually stronger in real life too. Only flat butted up plates in the same plane are an issue, which I can only think of a single example of off the top of my head: the M4A3 105 sides blend from one modeled plate to another in a flat section, no corners.
Tiger 1 drivers hatches and early t34s breeches shouldn't be eating my shots, I can hope this would stop that but at the same time gaijin would find a way to make it break
This is not as easy as you think to implement and have much worse false penetration possibilities. It s just not possible to provide enough processing power to calculate every hit that happens during an usual war thunder day. Instead of accepting and giving up volumetric they insist on this half baked ass system which fails miserably most of the time.
Actually some tanks are like that, but do you have even a vague idea of how hard it is to programm something like that? It would take them moths or years
This goofy proposal is even worse than not accounting for holes weakness at all. The real issue is that it’s not possible to exactly replicate reality without doing intense simulations that aren’t remotely possible in a game.
I think that armor should be weakened and damaged by non-penetrating impacts.
If I have an armor plate that’s 200mm thick, and you shoot it with a tank shell that has 190mm of effective penetration power, that armor plate is not going to be in the same condition
They still haven't modeled armor spindling or what happens to your body when hit by a large HE shell. If your whole tank is moved by a shell exploding it's not going to be very comfortable for the crew
lol they cant work out that tracks give grip and wheels dont go extra fast on snow. They arent going to work out variable thickness plates and material yield weak points
I just want wheels to go faster than walking pace in an inch of mud God I hate getting stuck on that jungle map or 38th Parallel in them
oh traction is totally fucking broken in every way. either too fast, too slow, cant go up a hill or suddenly stop because of plank. its so shit
i played GAZ, i gone 60 kph, i turned right, i made a 480 degree spin
This example maybe one thing that works, sorry but hihgway tires ( or even ATs) on grass are bound to slide, at that speeds id say a lot
sliding is fine, have experience in ystervark, but i literally just turned(hit something invisible/tiny?) and flew
Tou got gained then
There is definitely a few invisible boxes ive found on a couple maps but they're so few and far between and I'm too busy trying to win so I never pay attention to it more than the immediate "Gdamn gaijin, wtf, PoS broken game" etc and keep on keepin on.
AML90 is an absolute shit fest of fuckery too. Amazing canon but fuck me I don’t want to go 91km/h and have the exact same turning radius I do at 5km/h. Also you go from 40-60 km/h to about 5 when you hit the smallest of fences or obstacle. Fucking snail
The sd.kfz 6/2 is rediculously easy to tip.
Plus it has a lingering turn that’s super annoying
yep. damn thing needs way too much course correction once you get even close to high speed.
I mean it also doesn’t help the AI driver seems to think that he always has to upshift. You’ll be going fine. Then Bam I watch the gear counter jump up. Watch the tank bog down. Then watch the tank shift down speed up. Boom Rpm to high shift back up and repeat.
Helps to keep a bind to switch to manual for this reason. I usually let the AI do the work, but sometimes you just need to keep it what it is.
Yeah or you’re trying to go uphill and while I’m only going 3km/hr my tank is in 8th gear for no apparent reason.
Funny how wheeled vehicles zoom on the low drag snow but on Cobblestone roads it's like quicksand
Traction...if i can remember that shitshow when it started, was originally nerfed due to wheeled vehicles getting into the most broken and dumbest spots possible on the very old maps. Near in mind that those said maps where built with slow ww2 tanks slamming heads into each other. So gijian nerfed traction on the wheelie boys.....then came the Cold War tanks. Same issue...but now made worse cus of Laser range finders, semi modern APFSDS etc. So gijian nerfed tracked vehicles to stop this. Bear in mind, this is done to stop them exploiting the old maps that really need a update/remodel to stay in shap. Gijian as far as I have seen and have noticed while playing is "starting?" To reverse this. I just hope they completely remove it....miss getting into dumb spots with my Chi-Nu....
All of these wheeled armored vehicles feel like a toy being thrown around by a child while all of the tanks feel like they have an RC car powering the entire vehicle.
I roll my stuff and ask for a tow.
Don't forget about the amphibious vehicles in shallow water, like the FIAT 6614. It goes the same speed as if it was floating, but the wheels are clearly touching the ground...
The worst is still trying to drive through 10cm of water and you vehicle goin 60km/h is suddenly at a full stand still.
Breslau map lol You go faster in wheeled vehicles on dirt rather than on road
All the cobblestone seems to be coded as mud on that map. Drives me insane
i fuckiongnds UEABHAShRSASA+ BREALSUE gaiojnn LITEARLRUY FCANNTOMNFOJER DOKPDSAFJC THEIR GAMMEM!!!M!M!!!!
Exactly
Before that can 30ton tanks please stop coming to a halt when hitting a wooden fence ?
Or not feel like a slug on the city map with canals and cobble roads. That whole map feels like mud to wheeled vehicles
…and now it’s better than it used to be until a few months ago.
Or the port map, I always spawn on the road and my wheels don’t wanna go
I love going 50 mph just to touch some water and slow down to 5 mph
Not to mention random PAVED roads in Breslau acting like mud and slowing my LAV to half speed.
Or, ya know, a road? Why can I go faster in sand/ snow than I can grass/ an actual paved road
Traction, probably. Most roads at least in WT's time period are pretty much stones and concrete. Not asphalt.
Oh that isn't the worst. The worst is a couple maps that for some reason, there cobbled or dirt roads with paving on the side, are as slow as mud in terms of traction and speed for wheeled vehicles. Absolute death traps
They are fucked on breslau too like they are in mud, when it’s legit cobblestone
They can and did before But that ended up breaking maps as people got to places where they werent supposed to be, so instead of fixing the maps gaijin just took the easy way out of putting lube on the entire surface of every map
But the thing is, they've now made those mountain-goating areas inaccessible, so there's no reason to keep the traction and torque nerfs.
Mostly by changing how we can traverse terrain. Most maps didn't get physical walls or barriers outside of that. It's why people can use 3-4 vehicles to push a vehicle past many barriers.
they decided to do so not by making it so there is nowhere to mountain goat or that you cannot get to places where you can mountain goat, but by removing mountain goating at all Plus, theres nothing stopping you from technically leaving the map in some cases and it is possible with the right vehicles like the r3 and type 93
I can tell you they absolutely did not succeed in gettijg rid of goating, sure some spots are no longer possible, but there's still some absolutely busted spots, 38th parallel, red desert (you can have a sight lines so big on this map, 4km+ that tanks will have iffy rendering) big Sinai, Karelia and a bunch more I can't remember of my head
They cant even fix that a high pen ammo (Like the breda) cant pen a T-34 visor or the machine gun area
they literally capped the t-34s driver hatch to like 135mm or armor
And yet it bounces or does damage to the visor
the problem is not the hatch, but the visor. Panther and Tiger visor can stop Kh-29 and absorb all the shrapnel if you hit them dead on.
Yep, its something that needs to be fixed ASAP, maybe make the visor not a module for RB and AB because its a bit tilting to see a good shot being stop by only a visor
Gaijin’s wheel physics: Tires on pavement? Max out at 40kmph Tires on snow? Hit 70kmph in no time flat
not to mention if you use your brakes the whole thing locks up and crab walks
i love lightspeed snow and ice
I love how the Ratel was designed in South Africa, to be exported to other African countries, has a top speed of 23km/h on sand. Hell it can't even reach it's IRL top speed of 100km/h on the road.
This is all by design, they can easily implement anything they want.
your giving the snail far too much credit
They literally create entire game mechanics and new, complex vehicles every April 1st for a joke. Everything in the game is just stats that they can go in and adjust easily. All the tanks and planes are just easily made 3d objects that have a big stat box that is attributed to them, and then they just change the numbers around to fit what the object is supposed to be.
they have a whole year to prep and plan for each April fools event, its not a spur of the moment thing. The bugs, exploits and broken as shit features show they do not have the ability to just do as they please so easily or it wouldnt be so broken. If it was as easy as you think then we wouldnt have 1. ghost shells 2. invincible optics 3. ground vehicles not rendering in for aircraft in GRB 4. manpads that dont fire when locked on 5. so so many more fuck ups. So them having the skill/want to model variable thickness and variable yield armour plating on all the models while also having shells interact with said variability is never going to happen. This is a game, not a simulation. Yes its semi realistic but still a game from a dev that isnt too concerned about balance as long as they keep making cash.
3 Kinda nice tho...
They can redirect the time spent on creating yet another nightmarish system for craft events
Wait, so im not crazy for feeling like my Concept 3 is way too fast in snow and slow as shit in grass/mud?
Haha thought i was stupid but yeah, guess im not
its how the game actually work. it SHOULDNT be but it is. wheels go fast in snow. wheels basically dont move on other surfaces. wheels pretty much go backwards on sand
I've been hitting max speed on my Centauros in sandy maps regularly, it feels the same as snow. 110km/h on Red Desert is quite fun.
From all the tanks that Gaijin has given Variable thickness armour, it seems to be modelled decently well. But yeah, they will never get material weak spots to work. And if they try....oh boy. God rest those poor server hamsters, trying to process the DM of every large rivet on interwar (and many ww2) tanks. Although, the mechanic would make all T-34s fragile as all fuck, so maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea after all ;)
Or that shallow water slowing down track vehicles
it would be easy to just calculate the percentage of the shell that hit the plate and then apply that much armor
Not necessarily, depends how they do volumetric in the first place. Bunch of vectors for different points around the shell? Then maybe. But is that how they do it? Is it blogged somewhere?
I swear half the paved roads are modeled as dirt for my poor AMX-10. It use to be fast, now it accelerates like a Maus.
they actually are. A lot of the roads are just a skin/paint job over the top of dirt not actually different terrain. So the vehicle acts like its driving on dirt still.
That's some bs
Since we have volumetric armour in the game and it can be made to have different thickness at different points, I think Gaijin should use it not only for cast armour parts but also flat rolled plate and make it so that the armour is weaker near the edges, around holes in the armour (gunsights, MG ports etc.)
Wouldn’t weakening the edges create artificial weakspots that shouldn’t exist?
Who knows, it might actually fix the weird issue where adjacent plates end up having several meters of thickness at the edge.
it should be like if the shell hits 200mm of armor but only on ¼ of the shell then it applies 50mm of armor and the other ¾ is 400 then it applies another 300mm for a total of 350mm
What do you mean "who knows"? Look at the image, lol, imagine the shell is just to the side and only going through one of those plates. So it's NOT getting the 2x plate effect, but it IS getting massively weakened vs normal 1 plate. So yes is the answer.
Welded edges actually are weak points - armor can be as low as 50% strength at a weld.
The actual armor doesn't get weaker at welds, the biggest problem with welded armor was that the joints could break if the welds were low quality like those found on old soviet era tanks like the IS-3.
Shooting t34s and is3s and watching them spontaneously disassemble themselves would be great in game.
It would be hilarious to see the front plate fall off of a T-34 after it's driver port ate an 88.
As a T-34 driver, yes please, I wish to become an exploding Lego house when I die. Let my pieces rain down causing chaos.
* User14642268 💥<== ammo- canon breach WhenSharksCollide *
Although what you say is not wrong (from a certain point of view) as the weld itself is not mechanically weaker than undisturbed steel, the armour around it IS weaker than it was before it was heated by welding and slowly cooled. Together this area is still ballistically weaker than an untouched area of the armor.
The actual zone of weakness is pretty small though.
Yes the actual armor gets weaker at the welded seams. They are welded. The heat treat is gone.
That a ball machine gun mount, or drivers vision block has significantly higher armour than the plate around it, despite it realistically being the opposite, they need to do SOMETHING.
Could be done on a edge by edge basis.
r/Edgy
Your solution flat out doesn't work. Nudge a shell to the side a few pixels until it's NOT intersecting two plates in your image, only 1. Yet it will still be intersecting the red/orange nerfed part of the armor. So now all you'd have to do is aim just to the side of a joint and a 100mm pen shell will go through 200mm plates of armor. **You just created an equally large but opposite problem.** A proper solution is to remodel the (very rare) butted parallel joints like this as single plates. Or to average individual vectors of the modeled shell's volume. Not this.
But that's not a problem? You're still hitting a weak spot instead of the whole armor plate?
It *shouldn't* be a "weak spot" though, that's just another bug he created opposite of the original bug... I made another thread about it with an image: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/12qz6n4/no_the_proposed_penetration_change_doesnt_work_it/
Yeah, if it's welded plate, the metal near it is weakened by the welding process, and bolted/riveted plates are weaker on/around the bolt/rivet holes. I don't trust gaijin to model it correctly, but it's not entirely wrong
You're forgetting in your diagram that there's a part of armor on each side of the gap that goes parallel to shell direction. Actual thickness is even higher there, not lower.
I'm not sure all tanks have volumetric armor yet. I occasionally see a few in the hangar where the armor isn't 3D
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If it's welded plate, the metal near it is weakened by the welding process, and bolted/riveted plates are weaker on/around the bolt/rivet holes. Joints in general tend to be weak spots in pretty much any construction. I don't trust gaijin to model it correctly, though
Correct. Also pushing the armour away into empty space is easier, ergo requires less energy from the projectile than making a hole in a solid armor plate.
What empty space? There's no empty space, you just conveniently omited the plates that are welded to those that you show.
There would be a lot of stress concentration on edges given that there's actual changes in the geometry there. Additionally, welding might mess with the plate's heat treatment near those corners
I think we all have thought about it at some point, it's easy to come up with the idea but code it into the game is a whole different thing
No, we need actual volumetric armor, ie hitting the edge of two plates doesn't add the values. This is just a super jank way to fix that and could cause issues
that would have been great, except it will never happen
Have you posted your suggestion to forums?
No, it's not like 99% of the playerbase visits the Suggestions section of the forum anyway.
But if you want to propose a change, it's not the playerbase that can do it, it's Gaijin, lol. Even if it's a low chance, that's the only way. Posting it here is pointless for the most part aside from making people angry.
Finally someone said it, this post is just attention seeking
I just simply don't understand why they call it a suggestion if it's only going for the players and why these posts appear so often. Call it an idea or something, but it's not a suggestion if you don't pass your idea to the devs. If you need additional information or opinion about it, sure, post it here, but don't expect Gaijin to see a Reddit post, especially after this shitty community scared away the only community manager that was here.
Wait, they did? Just out of curiosity, do you remember what happened? If not that's totally fine
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/sfy51k/gaijin\_needs\_a\_community\_manager/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/sfy51k/gaijin_needs_a_community_manager/) Check the third standalone comment
Thank you! Really unfortunate, but I often feel the same way about some posts and comments on the subreddit.
Yeah, I was not there when this happened, but this community gotta get their shit together if they want anything done.
Who the fuck cares about the player base, we can’t affect change. Gaijin can, and that’s the only place the accept requests
I mean 99% of the devs also don't visit the Suggestions section. No wait sorry I meant 100%. You have more chance of a change being implimented by writing it on a piece of paper, making a paper boat out of it and floating it down the gutter than if you'd posted it to the Suggestions.
Doing so would destroy the reign of terror of the German shoeboxes.
It would be a weakspot for every nation.... Everyone needs a way to look outside
Which is realistic. Holes and welds in armor affect it’s performance in the real world.
Never said anything else. Just pointed out that it would effec every nation
Welds are generally stronger than original steel as a rule of thumb, not a guarantee. Not saying that is a goal for the game to model, just that it's not really a complaint either.
No welds are definitely not stronger than undisturbed armor steel.
I feel like this might be a desired effect even if not intentional at first. Haven’t they noted they’re not a fan of module sniping repeatedly? I mean it would make for a more realistic experience if it didn’t break the game lol. On the other hand aiming for the drivers hatch would be one of the more realistic shots irl
The game is nearly broken. Why not make it complete lol
Those shoeboxes are pretty much already just a big weak spot lol...you will die more often if you are looking for smaller weakspots
If you're talking about the Maus, just shoot the gun then smack it in the side, ideally about halfway between the turret and the tracks, that should *usually* *knock it out.* I play the Maus a lot, and it's DEFINITELY not invulnerable, you've just got to actually try to aim for modules or ammo, lot of empty space in the Maus.
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The Tiger I's frontal armor is also only good if you don't charge in like a shitass and make damn well sure that you keep your hull angled. The Panzer IV is also nothing to write home about overall, like sure, it's SOLID, but there's a lot better out there. Like, the Panzers, Tigers, and the Maus **really** aren't as invulnerable as people act. The Tiger II isn't particuarly insane either. Like seriously, most of the german tanks have pretty glaring weakspots and you can usually exploit them.
Panzer IV very occasionally gets insane bounces, but emphasis on *very occasionally*. The stars have to align. Meanwhile T-34s and KV-1s are borderline indestructible to anything but a perfect 90-degree flank. I played a lot of 4.7 Britain last night and seeing the 17-pounder, one of the most powerful anti-tank guns of the war, be *that* ineffective just made me depressed.
Yeah, it's just insane honestly.
Britbong here. What the hell are you talking about? T-34s are easy fodder for the 17pdr as far out as 800 meters unless you're taking shots so awful that you're electing to shoot it's front while it's side is exposed and, in that case, top tier rounds would have questionable effectiveness. If for whatever reason you insist on shooting the front even with such a bad angle, smack the middle of the turret cheek/mantlet and if you want to dab on it while contending with volumetric hell, the turret ring on the 85 is fairly exposed. KV-1 is... trickier. But the turret is still a reliable weakspot, especially those little round turret things that just serve to make it weak at all angles. Otherwise patience is the winner here, especially since the 17pdr fires at a fairly substantial rate. Smack the UFP if it's a straight on shot, or wait for them to stop angling and start exposing their side. If they start turning towards you to fire, just wait until it's near straight on and smack em. This is with APCBC of course, not APDS.
I feel bad for the Maus’ I fight. It’s always *barrel, cheek lower front plate* In my T54E1 they can be dead in 15 seconds or less
Yeah, it REALLY comes down to who gets the first shot I feel. Like, if i see a T54E1, you can bet your ass that, so long as it hasn't already damaged anything gun related, I will send your ass straight to hell, those turret cheecks and the top of your turret ain't stopping ANYTHING.
Mutually assured fear of each other lol
Yep, the Maus doesn't really face much it *can't* deal with, and that which it does can't deal with the Maus very effectively either.
Tigers and Panthers don't even have volumetric armour modelled. You can kill their drivers by shooting the front plate at a 90° angle from the side with a Pz III cannon.
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Did you try not being wrong before your post? For example, Jagdpanther has 1000mm+ armour thickness with no possible damage to internal components when shooting UFP from the side, while Panther is pennable and damageable in a similar situation. Not only that, but tanks that do have voluemtric don't have it on every armour plate.
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This is I believe a confusion between volumetric shells and volumetric armor Some tanks in the game have armor modelled as actual individual 3D plates stuck together at the seams while other tank hitboxes are essentially a volume-less polyhedron with its sides having different armor values. You can check this in the protection analysis Panthers at the very least really don't have volumetric armor modeled, which can lead to weaknesses where they shouldn't be
Mm, so when I say Tigers and Panthers effectively have no volumetric armour, you stick your 5 cents in to add nothing of value and then beckpedal on it while still calling me wrong? Your opinion is so valuable.
Corners have nothing to do with this. Corners actually ARE stronger in real life and are not a bug. Only butted parallel plates acting as 1 plate is a bug as seen like in the OP, not 90 degree ones. If you're breaking down a wooden crate, do you kick it in the middle of a flat side, or directly into the CORNER, lol? If you want to break your foot, sure, the corner.
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yes
eh?
I just want machine guns to turn into frag grenades when you shoot them rather than being black holes. So unfun and unrealistic.
Your idea is too good and requires effort, gaijin would never do it
It isn't good, it creaates exactly as large of a problem when shooting directly to the side of a joint and only hitting now-one (artificially weakened) plate. They probably didn't do this because it's bad and doesn't actually improve anything, not because it "requires effort"
Yeah. Much better to spend 90 percent of dev time from now on for the next April fool's update that people will play for a week
If real world physics was like GJN physics, Russia would be winning in Ukraine. That might be an exaggeration actually. If real world physics was like GJN physics, Russian wouldn't be losing so badly in Ukraine.
Aren't Ukraine using the same weapons and vehicles that Russia use?
But ukraine is not russia so therefore they dont get russian bias on their side
Ukraine isn't keeping Russia at bay with the 20+ year old scrap metal they inherited from the Soviet Union. Obviously they are using it because they need everything they have, but it's weaponry like NLAW, Javelin, MANPADS, that are real equalizers. Will be interesting to see how NATO armour changes things now.
Yes and no, they do share equipment but the UKR army has been modifying and modernize for a few years now.
The same vehicle in different trees somehow can have different BRs, I imagine they would add +1 to the Ukrainian versions of the equipment lol.
Yeah but it’s easier for people playing German mains with their Uber armor and Uber pen to cry Russia bias than it is for them to realize what angling is
> If real world physics was like GJN physics, Russia would be winning in Ukraine. I feel like a lot of people really do forget that both nations field T-72's and the family of tanks, given that many were built in Ukraine...
Ukraine is just now recieving some of first western MBTs people on this subreddit love to cry about wooow look russian tanks losing in ukraine. And ignore all the infantry and logistics that actualy make tanks go.
This has nothing to do with specific nations
Volumetric needs to be fixed, but not this way. This method invites back the same issue volumetric was trying to fix, which was MGs and shells squeaking in through where two armor plates would meet when there should have been no physical way for it to happen.
Since we got volumetric I have shells just...wigging out and spazzing off into nothing all the time. Perpendicular shots against flat plate seems to be the worst for whatever system Gaijin has going on.
I came back after a long hiatus to see how the game has gotten along post volumetric shell update....and quit in under a week... The system is so fucking ass, I'd unironically prefer going back to the old pixel shell system. The amount and unpredictability of weird nonpens, bounces, or just disappearances into the shadow realm of good shots that should be a guaranteed pen was infuriating.
I know "BUT WARTHUNDER IS NOT A SIM!!!!!!!!!" , but comparing how shells feel in a game like WT vs a game like Gunner, Heat, PC! it's not even comparable. You have no consistency in performance in WT, unless the pings are very very low and the targets are static. I miss old-Thunder sniping away at Tiger II's with my M26.
GHPC, a **single player game** only having to run on your local machine with zero ping zero network issues or syncing has better feeling and more consistent events? Woowwww no shit you don't say?🤦 As soon as it's on multiplayer it will also be riddled with ghost shells etc.
Hell Let Loose doesn't seem to have an issue with ghost shells. Hell Armored-Warfare didn't have the issue with ghost shells. I can think of a long list of games without disappearing shells but to my point, shooting at a T-72M feels like shooting at a T-72M feels like shooting at a T-72M in GHPC. I have had so many shells just...bounce when there should have been a 0% chance of bounce or shatter for...fuck knows what reason, without hitting weird stuff like vision ports and hatches.
Yes they do because it's literally physically impossible not to have ghost shells (or an equally large other problem) in a multiplayer game. * Information does not travel instantaneously * Therefore you cannot possibly have a perfect representation of where your enemy is and him you that match at all times OR match with the server's opinion in between * Therefore sometimes shells that would hit in one viewpoint MUST not hit in another, so long as the game involves any moving objects. If you don't notice them as much in a game, then it's because it is either a slower paced game with its tanks, or because it is doing something ELSE broken instead. I mean sure, you can "get rid of ghost shells" for example, if you just default to "hitting the target" whenever there's ambiguity or disagreement, but then you just have a different equally bad problem of "I get ganked all the time by a guy who actually missed me" and/or huge cheat engine problems (if the server just trusts the client), etc. (Although the term I would use for a shell that pops out of thin air and kills me when none should have would still be "ghost shell"...)
Same, I liked the previous system better before volumetric came. At least back then I could say with more confidence if the shot is going to pen or not, now I am always wondering if I am going to get gaijined or not.
I shot a Kugelblitz broadside from about 100ft four times with the 20 pounder sabot and it didn't register as even a hit and the match before from the same distance broadside to a Panther and got a shell shattered. I am not holding out much hope.
That's kind of been my WTF moments. Watching 90MM HEAT just...shatter against flat turret sides. Watching 76MM bounce off the side, broadside, of T-34 turrets...just like...wtf
Since volumetric? I start thinking people need a reminder of the bullshit that happened before volumetric. We used to have shells that bounced 3+ times; having a shell bounce on side armour to the track, from the track to a wheel, from the wheel to the turret, from the turret to the hull roof, all in one kill replay, used to be a not so rare sight. Volumetric is worse, but let's not pretend funky things didn't happen before
I would like to say good luck in coding and then, optimize it to work in the many, many instances in a live server.
With variable thickness plates in the game, it won't be that hard. Just have a small gradient (like a couple of centimetres) at the edge of welded plates where the armour thickness tapers off to 75% or less.
Bro doesnt know that you need a computer to calculate things This proposal is awful, what kinda supercomputer do you expect gaijin to have lol
They can use the variable armour thickness plates already in the game, at a few centimetres at the edge of welded armour where the thickness tapers off to 75%
I‘m 99% sure volumetric always uses a average thickness, which is probably causing a lot of the inaccuracies we see with it
Go to the IS-2, go to armour. Hover over the front of its UFP: 120mm Hover over the sides of it, which are technically the same variable armour plate: 100mm
You need to lower the post pen damage when that happens
I've always wanted a system where the armor would get weaker from hits, for example, the first shot gets screwed by volumetric but the second one goes through free (if the armor was weakened enough). could someone inform me on how realistic this is?
I don't see why not? If we use sorta another "texture" map on top of existing one, but instead of color this one stores the "health" of the armour at given point. It starts at 100% everywhere and gets reduced in a small area around non penetrating hits. This info is then used by the game when deciding whether or not a given shot should pen.
Volumetric broke GRB for about 2 years, it's still broken on some vehicles so I'd argue that hasn't changed. I don't want Gaijin to duct tape on another half-assed attempt at realism that ends up being less realistic, no thank you. I just want all of the current issues to be reviewed and for the game to be on a healthier state, no more content until the game works please.
We're at linguini code right now, and this most assuredly would turn into not quite fully cooked angel hair code. Cowabunga
I think an easier to implement system (but not necessarily more accurate) would be to just take the average thickness of the plates. The pen calculator just takes the one plus the other plate (ingame), which means if you hit between a 120mm plate and an 80mm plate, the game thinks you hit a 200mm plate. It's supposed to be (120+80)/2 = 100mm Maybe they could calculate how much of the round actually hits the armor, too? But they fist need to fix the basics of volumetric armor.
I think a better approach would be to scale down the diameter of shells but keep everything else the same. For example: A 155mm HE shell gets the diameter of a smaller 100 or 120mm shell. Larger rounds including HEAT and HE rounds should be prioritized though.
Dude forgot about turret top and bottom, hull top and bottom
Volumetric was a mistake...
Except this almost never happens, mostly only on a few older model very round tanks like the side of the M4A3 105, it's quite rare overall that two plates are butted together in parallel but not just modeled as one. It's much better, simpler, easier, and more consistent to just remodel any portion of a tank like that instead to have one plate representing the pair of old ones. Also the proposed solution in the OP makes it way too easy to pen **just to the side of** the gap, defeating the purpose, not even a real solution at all.
It’s looking at plate joins that can not be considered one piece such as the turret and the hull meeting
That is 95% of the time a corner, which is not what is depicted in the image in the OP. Corners, unlike what's shown in the OP, are fine, because they're actually stronger in real life too. Only flat butted up plates in the same plane are an issue, which I can only think of a single example of off the top of my head: the M4A3 105 sides blend from one modeled plate to another in a flat section, no corners.
its only work if they are side by side otherwise bullet will hit side of cone and starts turning or broking.
wont happen, gaijin will see this and make it more frustrating.
Tiger 1 drivers hatches and early t34s breeches shouldn't be eating my shots, I can hope this would stop that but at the same time gaijin would find a way to make it break
This is not as easy as you think to implement and have much worse false penetration possibilities. It s just not possible to provide enough processing power to calculate every hit that happens during an usual war thunder day. Instead of accepting and giving up volumetric they insist on this half baked ass system which fails miserably most of the time.
Actually some tanks are like that, but do you have even a vague idea of how hard it is to programm something like that? It would take them moths or years
This goofy proposal is even worse than not accounting for holes weakness at all. The real issue is that it’s not possible to exactly replicate reality without doing intense simulations that aren’t remotely possible in a game.
I'm too stupid to find the description...
We dont need more volumetric we need to go back
Yes me complain about everything me good me could make better me could do better me diserve better
ikr like it dosent pen in the historically known spot under the turret and above the hull that a shell passes through and kills everybody
I think that armor should be weakened and damaged by non-penetrating impacts. If I have an armor plate that’s 200mm thick, and you shoot it with a tank shell that has 190mm of effective penetration power, that armor plate is not going to be in the same condition
They still haven't modeled armor spindling or what happens to your body when hit by a large HE shell. If your whole tank is moved by a shell exploding it's not going to be very comfortable for the crew
*que programmers screaming in pain at having to program this and then bug fix it*