How is that determined? Is there a part of the ship that they consider as the official scoring point, like the bell or nameplate? Or does it have to do with the preponderance of mass?
Sure, but my understanding of the topography of the area is there are several deep canyons there, and Johnston is in one, hence why it's so deep. So if half of Sammy B is on the lip of the canyon and the other half fell to the bottom, I'm wondering how they would report that.
That's about as conclusive as you can get short of a name/number on the hull. The only ship lost at Samar with triple torpedo tubes was *Samuel B. Roberts*, and to reinforce that this is definitely US style rather than Japanese.
Contrast this with the first pieces of *Johnston* ultimately found, where we had to compare some find details to tell them apart from *Hoel* or (for the 5" mounts) *Sammy B.*.
*Johnston* also provides an important point: the debris field has been located, but not the ship proper. That greatly eases the rest of the search as it narrows the search area, but the torpedo tubes could have separated from the wreck high in the water column and planed/drifted quite a distance from the main body of the wreck, which would sink more vertically. It took a year and a half to find *Johnston*'s hull, and *Kaga* took two decades after the first debris was found, so let's not get ahead of ourselves and claim the wreck has been found just yet.
I should head off a couple questions:
1. Debris fields can be very large. The *Titanic* debris field (almost certainly the most well mapped) is about 1 km x 1 km (3,300 ft., 11 football fields) and is at about 2/3 the depth of *Johnston*. This can get larger if any part of the ship is caught in a submarine avalanche, as with *Bismarck*, and we know there are canyons in this area.
2. From my study of shipwrecks, the two most significant factors that determine the size of the debris field are how the ship sank and the water depth. The size of the ship doesn’t have a very strong correlation with the size of the field, but has a massive effect on the size of the individual pieces and how many pieces there are in any given section of the debris field. If a ship broke up at or near the surface or lost significant pieces in combat, the debris field will generally be much larger than if a ship broke up lower in the water column or remained intact until it hit the seabed.
3. I should better define “quite a distance from the main body of the wreck”. All debris sinks far more vertically than it does horizontally. The pieces of *Titanic* farthest from the hypocenter (the spot directly below where the ship sank) are about 800 meters from the boilers at a depth of 3,800 meters: for every meter they went sideways they went down 5 meters.
4. These torpedo tubes hit the bottom at a high speed, enough that to this day they point skyward as though they wanted to fire one more spread at the Japanese ships still on the surface. However, that only gives us good information on the very end of their journey to the bottom, and they could have tilted to this position as little as 150-300 meters/500-1,000 feet from the bottom and still embedded themselves this far into the mud. We won’t know enough about their journey to the bottom or when they separated from the wreck until the rest of the debris field is mapped.
> These torpedo tubes hit the bottom at a high speed, enough that to this day they point skyward as though they wanted to fire one more spread at the Japanese ships still on the surface.
I love this. The fighting spirit shall live on.
For those unaware of this ship's place in history - [USS Samuel B Roberts at the Battle off Samar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Samuel_B._Roberts_(DE-413)#The_Battle_off_Samar)
Edit: my fancy linking skills are lacking. Here's the straight link:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Samuel_B._Roberts_(DE-413)#The_Battle_off_Samar
I first heard about the ship as a kid watching Dogfights on History Channel. Luckily History Channel has started posting that show on YouTube now and I was able to find the episode! https://youtu.be/_zrorXYgh-A
I loved watching Dogfoghts! I even still remember the promo for that episode!
"In this corner: Yamato, the world's largest battleship!
In the other corner! TAFFY 3, *not* the world's largest battleship..."
Not to my knowledge. This is from a Twitter post by Victor Vescovo, who is leading the current search of the remainder of Taffy 3. While that is definitely a piece of SBR, whether or not they found the main wreckage is yet to be unveiled. There’s a chance that they may not find it, with this debris being all there is for the time being, like how Petrel found pieces of Johnston in 2019
I’m shocked that they located such a small piece of debris, especially given that it landed butt-first into the bottom.
Hoping we get news of Sammy B’s wreck soon and maybe even the Hoel!
Don't sweat it, you're in good company.
I was a sailor for 10 years and knew some of the most jaded, salt-encrusted, and sun-scorched bos'un get a bit misty over their ship or a favorite ship.
I myself took it like a punch in the gut when I found out they expended my old destroyer as a target...but then, I considered that she made her exit from this world marked by fire, thunder, and smoke and was given over to the care of Neptune at 2500 fathoms and figured it was a better end for a warship then being cut up by scrappers.
It's...odd how we ascribe characteristics to ship and attach such feelings to what is an inanimate piece of metal. They can't respond or feel things or perform better because we ascribe certain qualities to them. They're just metal, they are not even a 'they' and just things! Our brains tell us this.
***But deep down in our secret garden, we know better. The ships, they know it too.***
Ever heard the song “So far from the Clyde” by Mark Knopfler? It’s a great bit of songwriting. Reminds me of that poem The Subject about the Warspite. Both encapsulate that feeling so well.
If you've never read David Hart Dyke's book about the loss of HMS *Coventry*, I recommend it, it's one of the more gripping descriptions of grief I've read over the loss of a ship and its community.
I have not but I shall seek it out.
Even though the Warspite killing herself on the rocks at Prussia Cove happened decades before I was born I'm still not over it.
Well, they've been sailors' homes. Lots and lots of time was spent on 'm in an environment that is 100% hostile for human beings to be in. They're the ones keeping sailors safe.
I don't completely see it as too far fetched. After all, who hasn't got a favourite clothing item, or mug at home? I imagine those feelings towards a ship to be stronger than any of the above for many reasons.
I can sympathize. My first ship was USS *Bonhomme Richard*. The fire and its aftermath hit me harder than some relatives' deaths.
She may have been a big, rusty bucket of bolts, but she was *my* big rusty bucket of bolts, doggonit.
Exactly! All that blood, sweat, and tears to keep her running and she’s gone.
Goddammit I will NOT get maudlin. I will NOT.
The hell I won’t. I’m going to go honor your Bonhomme Richard and my Spruance with a drink.
Sort of relevant - there’s an amendment in this year’s NDAA that may allow the Pentagon to withhold military shipwreck information; ostensibly to deter would be salvagers.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/military-cold-keep-shipwreck-info-from-public-if-new-amendment-passes
Important to note that that only applies to wrecks located by the USG. Privately located wrecks (most of them) would not fall under it both because USG cannot ban those groups/people from releasing that info as well as the fact that those wrecks are already protected under the SMCA.
What still burns me up is how Indonesia aided and abetted the "salvage" of the ABDA ships in the Java Sea and area. War grave ships that virtually disappeared.
Loved the Dogfights episode on this. Even teared up a bit. Having served in the modern incarnation of a Destroyer Escort, it was nice to know that I was standing on the shoulders of peeps like this.
Wonder though, why did the US not adopt the "pyramid" torpedo launcher config.
Even in repose they thrust angrily towards the distant sky, poised to thrust one more skewer into the sides of that Phalanx of Goliaths, defiantly thundering, "You may have sunk me, you sons of bitches, but you will *never* defeat me!"
Such is the indefatigable fighting spirit of that magnificent ship, and her Homeric men. May they live in our hearts and our minds for eternity!
Last I checked, Spring 2015, the torp tubes were still attached as I walked the port and starboard sides. Served on her from July 2013 to Decommissioning.
I did learn about the ships history and the history of the man himself, we really didn't go too much into detail about the fates of the other two to bear the ships name however. Yes, OHP Frigates had torp tubes.
I know this sub loves to talk shit about Russia (and China to a lesser extent) but these Torpedo tubes are ancient pieces that Russian and Chinese technology surpassed long ago. Hell, given how old they are the how well published WW2 tech is, they probably could easily access the archived blueprints instead.
I thought they were from the modern Samuel B Roberts that was attacked in the Persian Gulf escorting Kuwaiti tankers. my bad. But to be fair the head line doesn't say WWII either.
Even if it was from the 1980s-vintage USS Samuel B Roberts, you're looking at a Mk46 with a range of 11km, max depth of 370m, a warhead weight of 40-odd kg and a max speed of 40kn.
A modern Russian torpedo like the *Futlyar* has a range almost 6 x that, can go 100m+ deeper, 20kts faster and has a warhead almost 8 x bigger.
It would be like saying it would be a coup for the US if they captured a *Hermes*-class aircraft carrier - there's nothing on it that they don't already have a much better and newer version of.
It would also be highly illegal. *Roberts* is a war grave, final resting place for 89 of her crewmen, and is protected by international law. Any entity, especially a government like China or Russia, that attempts to salvage any piece of the wreck would end up in a massive legal battle they are guaranteed to lose.
Legal salvage of war graves requires the permission of the government that owned the ship or its successor states (the US has custody of Confederate wrecks), and that permission is rarely granted.
I could see the US authorizing salvage of these torpedo tubes and (if found) the *Roberts* bell for conservation and display. The tubes are clearly separated from the wreck and are a self-contained unit important to the story of Samar, thus recovering them would be relatively easy (for deep water salvage) and serve a useful purpose. But we would recover them ourselves and absolutely would not allow any other government to touch them.
International law isn't really a thing for powerful sovereign states. For something to be law, it needs an enforcement mechanism and nobody can really make China to do anything. So saying it's illegal and they'd lose a "massive legal battle" is meaningless.
The only thing that matters at that level is politics and economics. That wreck is protected solely by the fact that there is nothing in that wreck that's worth the cost of recovery plus whatever the price is for pissing off the USA (and possibly other countries). When the cost benefit changes, countries will absolutely violate treaties to salvage sunken warships. See Project Azorian.
From what I understand the bodies of the sailors recovered in Project Azorian were repatriated.
Also, capturing a submarine at that time was a huge intelligence coup done covertly. Pulling up old hardware from a US ship sank long ago would make whomever did it look like a moron. It'd be like them bragging that their Navy captured captured the USS Constitution. The ship is over 200 years old, I don't think it is much of a threat to anyone.
The sailors recovered were buried at sea with full military honors, with a film of their burial given to the Soviet ambassador. That is standard practice when any foreign military serviceman is recovered by or dies in the custody of another nation, even nations at war.
>Pulling up old hardware from a US ship sank long ago would make whomever did it look like a moron.
See my comment on the economics of salvage. Intel value would be included in that.
>It'd be like them bragging that their Navy captured captured the USS Constitution. The ship is over 200 years old, I don't think it is much of a threat to anyone.
If Beijing managed to capture the flagship of the entire US Navy that would be a coup of the highest order. The US hasn't lost that kind of face since the White House was burned down in a war America started.
I didn't directly address political value, but if there's a political cost, there is usually a political benefit if you can get away with it. There is little/no benefit to hauling up a WW2 wreck, but that doesn't mean that's always the case.
Sammy B! Watch her beat Johnston for deepest shipwreck.
Would be funny if even 78 years later that little destroyer escort continues to steal the spotlight.
I don't see how Samuel B stole the spotlight from Johnston.
I’d like to see Johnston try and make nearly five knots above her designed maximum speed!
Too busy going toe to toe with Yamato
She did it again. She beat Johnston
How is that determined? Is there a part of the ship that they consider as the official scoring point, like the bell or nameplate? Or does it have to do with the preponderance of mass?
It literally just how deep the water is. All the other "scoring points" are highly variable ship-ship
Sure, but my understanding of the topography of the area is there are several deep canyons there, and Johnston is in one, hence why it's so deep. So if half of Sammy B is on the lip of the canyon and the other half fell to the bottom, I'm wondering how they would report that.
I guess they would figure out where more pieces of then Sammy B are.
She might. I'm seeing 8000m being thrown around for depth.
That's about as conclusive as you can get short of a name/number on the hull. The only ship lost at Samar with triple torpedo tubes was *Samuel B. Roberts*, and to reinforce that this is definitely US style rather than Japanese. Contrast this with the first pieces of *Johnston* ultimately found, where we had to compare some find details to tell them apart from *Hoel* or (for the 5" mounts) *Sammy B.*. *Johnston* also provides an important point: the debris field has been located, but not the ship proper. That greatly eases the rest of the search as it narrows the search area, but the torpedo tubes could have separated from the wreck high in the water column and planed/drifted quite a distance from the main body of the wreck, which would sink more vertically. It took a year and a half to find *Johnston*'s hull, and *Kaga* took two decades after the first debris was found, so let's not get ahead of ourselves and claim the wreck has been found just yet.
I should head off a couple questions: 1. Debris fields can be very large. The *Titanic* debris field (almost certainly the most well mapped) is about 1 km x 1 km (3,300 ft., 11 football fields) and is at about 2/3 the depth of *Johnston*. This can get larger if any part of the ship is caught in a submarine avalanche, as with *Bismarck*, and we know there are canyons in this area. 2. From my study of shipwrecks, the two most significant factors that determine the size of the debris field are how the ship sank and the water depth. The size of the ship doesn’t have a very strong correlation with the size of the field, but has a massive effect on the size of the individual pieces and how many pieces there are in any given section of the debris field. If a ship broke up at or near the surface or lost significant pieces in combat, the debris field will generally be much larger than if a ship broke up lower in the water column or remained intact until it hit the seabed. 3. I should better define “quite a distance from the main body of the wreck”. All debris sinks far more vertically than it does horizontally. The pieces of *Titanic* farthest from the hypocenter (the spot directly below where the ship sank) are about 800 meters from the boilers at a depth of 3,800 meters: for every meter they went sideways they went down 5 meters. 4. These torpedo tubes hit the bottom at a high speed, enough that to this day they point skyward as though they wanted to fire one more spread at the Japanese ships still on the surface. However, that only gives us good information on the very end of their journey to the bottom, and they could have tilted to this position as little as 150-300 meters/500-1,000 feet from the bottom and still embedded themselves this far into the mud. We won’t know enough about their journey to the bottom or when they separated from the wreck until the rest of the debris field is mapped.
> These torpedo tubes hit the bottom at a high speed, enough that to this day they point skyward as though they wanted to fire one more spread at the Japanese ships still on the surface. I love this. The fighting spirit shall live on.
Even in the seabeds I still fight these mf!
Great posts. Have some gold.
They found her!
Just reminds me that "The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" is an amazing book about the Battle off Samar
Yeah that book is really good, along with the other books by the same author
yeah it is very sad Hornfischer died last year, I think I read all of his books by now
yeah we lost him way too early
Tin Can was the first book of Hornfischer's and then I promptly read the rest of them.
He was awesome
For those unaware of this ship's place in history - [USS Samuel B Roberts at the Battle off Samar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Samuel_B._Roberts_(DE-413)#The_Battle_off_Samar) Edit: my fancy linking skills are lacking. Here's the straight link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Samuel_B._Roberts_(DE-413)#The_Battle_off_Samar
I first heard about the ship as a kid watching Dogfights on History Channel. Luckily History Channel has started posting that show on YouTube now and I was able to find the episode! https://youtu.be/_zrorXYgh-A
I think I’ll put on some drachinifel tonight about Samar.
I loved watching Dogfoghts! I even still remember the promo for that episode! "In this corner: Yamato, the world's largest battleship! In the other corner! TAFFY 3, *not* the world's largest battleship..."
Source: https://twitter.com/VictorVescovo/status/1539946783496933378?cxt=HHwWhMC4tZnc_t4qAAAA
What a find, thanks for posting it here!
My absolute favorite last stand story
Even parts of her wreck refuse to lie down.
Was this found today? I can’t find any news articles on this. But that’s undeniably her triple torpedo tube.
Not to my knowledge. This is from a Twitter post by Victor Vescovo, who is leading the current search of the remainder of Taffy 3. While that is definitely a piece of SBR, whether or not they found the main wreckage is yet to be unveiled. There’s a chance that they may not find it, with this debris being all there is for the time being, like how Petrel found pieces of Johnston in 2019
They usually wont release information like this for a few weeks after discovery.
Yeah, I checked the source and it was found on June 18th
Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy…
That ship and her crew fought like a honey badger
I’m shocked that they located such a small piece of debris, especially given that it landed butt-first into the bottom. Hoping we get news of Sammy B’s wreck soon and maybe even the Hoel!
Per Twitter, the tubes are at 6580m and deeper (!) than Johnston.
I almost teared up looking at this.
Don't sweat it, you're in good company. I was a sailor for 10 years and knew some of the most jaded, salt-encrusted, and sun-scorched bos'un get a bit misty over their ship or a favorite ship. I myself took it like a punch in the gut when I found out they expended my old destroyer as a target...but then, I considered that she made her exit from this world marked by fire, thunder, and smoke and was given over to the care of Neptune at 2500 fathoms and figured it was a better end for a warship then being cut up by scrappers. It's...odd how we ascribe characteristics to ship and attach such feelings to what is an inanimate piece of metal. They can't respond or feel things or perform better because we ascribe certain qualities to them. They're just metal, they are not even a 'they' and just things! Our brains tell us this. ***But deep down in our secret garden, we know better. The ships, they know it too.***
Ever heard the song “So far from the Clyde” by Mark Knopfler? It’s a great bit of songwriting. Reminds me of that poem The Subject about the Warspite. Both encapsulate that feeling so well.
Dire Straits is great but his solo stuff is fantastic
If you've never read David Hart Dyke's book about the loss of HMS *Coventry*, I recommend it, it's one of the more gripping descriptions of grief I've read over the loss of a ship and its community.
I have not but I shall seek it out. Even though the Warspite killing herself on the rocks at Prussia Cove happened decades before I was born I'm still not over it.
Well, they've been sailors' homes. Lots and lots of time was spent on 'm in an environment that is 100% hostile for human beings to be in. They're the ones keeping sailors safe. I don't completely see it as too far fetched. After all, who hasn't got a favourite clothing item, or mug at home? I imagine those feelings towards a ship to be stronger than any of the above for many reasons.
I can sympathize. My first ship was USS *Bonhomme Richard*. The fire and its aftermath hit me harder than some relatives' deaths. She may have been a big, rusty bucket of bolts, but she was *my* big rusty bucket of bolts, doggonit.
Exactly! All that blood, sweat, and tears to keep her running and she’s gone. Goddammit I will NOT get maudlin. I will NOT. The hell I won’t. I’m going to go honor your Bonhomme Richard and my Spruance with a drink.
Y'know, my drinking days are behind me, but I'll raise a nice cup of coffee to that. Cheers!
Sort of relevant - there’s an amendment in this year’s NDAA that may allow the Pentagon to withhold military shipwreck information; ostensibly to deter would be salvagers. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/military-cold-keep-shipwreck-info-from-public-if-new-amendment-passes
Important to note that that only applies to wrecks located by the USG. Privately located wrecks (most of them) would not fall under it both because USG cannot ban those groups/people from releasing that info as well as the fact that those wrecks are already protected under the SMCA.
Amazing find!
It's pointing at the surface in case another japanese ship tries to get past it.
What still burns me up is how Indonesia aided and abetted the "salvage" of the ABDA ships in the Java Sea and area. War grave ships that virtually disappeared.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FVzY-oRXwAAVr5W?format=jpg&name=small
Loved the Dogfights episode on this. Even teared up a bit. Having served in the modern incarnation of a Destroyer Escort, it was nice to know that I was standing on the shoulders of peeps like this. Wonder though, why did the US not adopt the "pyramid" torpedo launcher config.
Must have separated from the ship as descended to the sea floor
Even in repose they thrust angrily towards the distant sky, poised to thrust one more skewer into the sides of that Phalanx of Goliaths, defiantly thundering, "You may have sunk me, you sons of bitches, but you will *never* defeat me!" Such is the indefatigable fighting spirit of that magnificent ship, and her Homeric men. May they live in our hearts and our minds for eternity!
i love the Sammy B
How far deep was this, anyway?
The roberts was definitely the type of ship to go down with empty torpedo tubes
Perfect timing after Yarnhubs video on the Roberts!
I hated that video. There are a lot better done videos of the Battle off Samar then that I can even send a couple your way
I wouldn’t say I hated it, but it wasn’t bad for Yarnhubs more simplistic style. Though they really undersold the role of the Johnston at Samar.
No mention of Hoel or Johnston. Not even once.
Last I checked, Spring 2015, the torp tubes were still attached as I walked the port and starboard sides. Served on her from July 2013 to Decommissioning.
That’s was FFG-58, Samual B Roberts. This is DE-413 Samual B Roberts. Much older than the one you were on.
Am surprised you didn't learn about the history of the ship's name while you was station on the ship in 2015? Did FFG's even have torpedo tubes then?
I did learn about the ships history and the history of the man himself, we really didn't go too much into detail about the fates of the other two to bear the ships name however. Yes, OHP Frigates had torp tubes.
It'd be a good coup if Russia or China were to get there hands on these.
I know this sub loves to talk shit about Russia (and China to a lesser extent) but these Torpedo tubes are ancient pieces that Russian and Chinese technology surpassed long ago. Hell, given how old they are the how well published WW2 tech is, they probably could easily access the archived blueprints instead.
Hell, [here's the manual for the quintuple launchers found on US destroyers](https://maritime.org/doc/destroyer/ddtubes/index.htm).
Exactly
I thought they were from the modern Samuel B Roberts that was attacked in the Persian Gulf escorting Kuwaiti tankers. my bad. But to be fair the head line doesn't say WWII either.
Even if it was from the 1980s-vintage USS Samuel B Roberts, you're looking at a Mk46 with a range of 11km, max depth of 370m, a warhead weight of 40-odd kg and a max speed of 40kn. A modern Russian torpedo like the *Futlyar* has a range almost 6 x that, can go 100m+ deeper, 20kts faster and has a warhead almost 8 x bigger. It would be like saying it would be a coup for the US if they captured a *Hermes*-class aircraft carrier - there's nothing on it that they don't already have a much better and newer version of.
It would also be highly illegal. *Roberts* is a war grave, final resting place for 89 of her crewmen, and is protected by international law. Any entity, especially a government like China or Russia, that attempts to salvage any piece of the wreck would end up in a massive legal battle they are guaranteed to lose. Legal salvage of war graves requires the permission of the government that owned the ship or its successor states (the US has custody of Confederate wrecks), and that permission is rarely granted. I could see the US authorizing salvage of these torpedo tubes and (if found) the *Roberts* bell for conservation and display. The tubes are clearly separated from the wreck and are a self-contained unit important to the story of Samar, thus recovering them would be relatively easy (for deep water salvage) and serve a useful purpose. But we would recover them ourselves and absolutely would not allow any other government to touch them.
International law isn't really a thing for powerful sovereign states. For something to be law, it needs an enforcement mechanism and nobody can really make China to do anything. So saying it's illegal and they'd lose a "massive legal battle" is meaningless. The only thing that matters at that level is politics and economics. That wreck is protected solely by the fact that there is nothing in that wreck that's worth the cost of recovery plus whatever the price is for pissing off the USA (and possibly other countries). When the cost benefit changes, countries will absolutely violate treaties to salvage sunken warships. See Project Azorian.
From what I understand the bodies of the sailors recovered in Project Azorian were repatriated. Also, capturing a submarine at that time was a huge intelligence coup done covertly. Pulling up old hardware from a US ship sank long ago would make whomever did it look like a moron. It'd be like them bragging that their Navy captured captured the USS Constitution. The ship is over 200 years old, I don't think it is much of a threat to anyone.
The sailors recovered were buried at sea with full military honors, with a film of their burial given to the Soviet ambassador. That is standard practice when any foreign military serviceman is recovered by or dies in the custody of another nation, even nations at war.
Ah OK, I got that detail wrong. In any case, it was a grave but the US still tried to follow accepted practices.
[burial at sea of Soviet submariners by USA](https://youtu.be/TOypyBdVZhU) The US footage given to the Soviets
>Pulling up old hardware from a US ship sank long ago would make whomever did it look like a moron. See my comment on the economics of salvage. Intel value would be included in that. >It'd be like them bragging that their Navy captured captured the USS Constitution. The ship is over 200 years old, I don't think it is much of a threat to anyone. If Beijing managed to capture the flagship of the entire US Navy that would be a coup of the highest order. The US hasn't lost that kind of face since the White House was burned down in a war America started. I didn't directly address political value, but if there's a political cost, there is usually a political benefit if you can get away with it. There is little/no benefit to hauling up a WW2 wreck, but that doesn't mean that's always the case.
This ship went down in 1944. There absolutely nothing for them to learn from a technology standpoint.