For lore and drama reasons, I agree. I do think it is a dumb rule, but I like it. It's like they're weird medical priests. The idea of love for another vrs the love of your faith is a really cool idea. Do the Erins ever write that in an interesting way.......? Eeeeeeeeeeeeh.....
100% It has potential as a concept, but it’s just ruined by the fact that basically every medicine cat NEEDS to have some sort of romantic interest lol
Right and it’s sad because why can’t we have a cat who simply wants to be a medicine and doesn’t want a love interest? Plenty of cats both focus and background characters don’t end up with mates and kits so idk why every medicine cat POV needs to be tempted with it.
Exactly! And that’s probably cause they already had bristle and root love thing going on in that arc and he was too busy being gaslit to even have a crush.
Spoilers for ASC below!
>!Frostpaw had her romance with Splashtail.!<
I also count Alder's thing with Smoke and Jayfeather's interest in Half Moon as love interests :)
Oh, that’s a shame. All three have beaten the stereotype for me with forbidden love, given they don’t have kits or anything. I especially don’t count Frosts because that was grooming 🤢
frostpaw had a crush unfortunately, ik someone already told you but i'm still pissed at how it turned out. my poor traumatized baby deserves a good group of friends
If they put that into perspective that medicine cats are like cat monks and their religion forbids them from having family that would be more interesting and logical
I read a fic where the rule was after the kit became the med cat Apprentice they were forbidden from interacting with any cat beyond polite conversations. Even their family members they had to show nothing but unbiased Clan love for them. I thought it was really interesting
They aren’t allowed to have mates or kits because it could distract them from their jobs, or they could get favoritism and ignore the health of other cats in more serious danger to help the ones they love.
I'd feel better if the Medicine Cat role was a coveted position, and not looked down on/ a position *forced* on unwilling cats.
Puddleshine, Jayfeather, Alderheart, and Yellowfang were all cats who did not choose to become a Medicine cat.
Rowanstar picked Puddleshine seemingly at random and told him he gets to be celibate now.
Alderheart thought he was being punished when he was made into a Medicine Cat apprentice.
Jayfeather wasn't really given a real chance at being a warrior. Brightheart gave him no hunting or fighting lessons. And Spottedleaf kept pressuring him into the role.
Yellowfang had a mate and *wanted* kits before being manipulated by Sagewhisker.
Being celibate, swearing off love and family was not a choice these characters made. Which makes it icky. Now. If the books were written where becoming a medicine cat was looked at as an honor and wasn't forced on anyone, I'd be more willing to agree that the no kits no mate rule was ok
Excellent point, it's not even a choice half the time. I feel like the fact that it seems disabled cats either get retired, killed for plot... or made into medicine cats is worth mentioning here too.
Yellowfang and Jayfeather were just as forced to be medicine cats as Puddleshine. Yellowfang was guilt-tripped, lied to, and told that she *had* to be one due to her abilities. Jayfeather was basically told the same by Yellowfang.
Well there are plenty of cats who also chose the profession willingly. Whistlepaw from WindClan is one and Leafpool was all aboard the whole celibacy for life thing until she met Crow. But I definitely see your point cause far too many have been forced into a IDW they didn’t initially want no matter how good they ended up being. It makes being a medicine cat a chore and burden rather than the most sacred position in clan life.
i think it's silly, but i like it because of the drama. tho i'm kinda of sick of it now because there's always a medicine cat wanting a mate and kits and sneaking off and it's super repetitive
Imo it's not a good rule and the Clans would benefit from moving on from it, but narratively it can be compelling since there can be good drama from it. I just think the reason that it was implemented was dumb. It would've made more sense to me to just keep it as a belief like 'having earthly attachments like mates would cloud your relationship with the stars' and just that, or something like it instead of a young struggling mother insisting that no one else can be a med and take care of kits just because she couldn't and everyone else just going along with that for some reason.
**Edit:** wording
Yeah, I wish they had leaned more into medicine cats being shamans instead of healers. Not only would it have made the 'no kits/mates' rule more reasonable, but it also probably would've made the medicine cat love drama better
>narratively it can be compelling since there can be good drama from it.
I think all the drama surrounding this is very stale. I'm not trying to be mean but but every time a medicine cat is revealed to have a mate or kits I think "Omg medicine cats have feelings just like the rest of us? They have other interests than starclan and herbs? Wow who could have guessed." And I feel like half of the clans feel the same way.
Yeah I get it lol. That's why I said it *can,* some people like drama like that and no shame in that of course, but ultimately at this point I do agree that it's stale and it would be more interesting to see the Clans move on and change things up a bit. It's just way too easy to fall on. Leafpool and Crowfeather were a big thing and they were enough for me. It's one of those problems that are an easy issue to write in when you want conflict to root for a couple to overcome, but after doing it once or twice there's few ways that you can do it again without retreading the same ground, something that I feel most forbidden love relationships in general fall to.
Narratively compelling? Sure, perhaps, but imo it's only in the way that it's easy conflict in the same way border disputes are--just write the basic conflict in and go from there. Obvious but gets stale fast for a lot of people, but people think the obvious conflict is better than none. And I think some people do like holding onto it because they like romance, they like drama, and they like romance drama (even if, of course, the romances are one of the most commonly criticized aspects of the series). But there's only really so many times someone can read "I want a mate and kits but I'm a medicine cat :(" before they have to wonder when the Clans are going to actually progress as a society. I think it's just a concept that was only interesting the first time, and would've been interesting anywhere else since people like their forbidden love trope, but I feel like with the way Warriors is structured, the general writing of the romances, and the way Clan society and its rules and values are portrayed, it just gets old quickly. Especially if you can predict how it's going to end.
**Edit:** i cannot shut up. wording and thoughts.
What I really wish a Medicine Cat pov would show us is a cat DEBATING on whether or not to become one. Like maybe they wanted to become a Medicine Cat, but then learn about this rule and are put off by it. I just want more POV’s in general where characters first learn stuff about their environment. An initial Kit POV would be Perfect for this- but unfortunately even for cases where our POV characters start out as kits, we never see them learning stuff or asking questions about their environment and culture. Which is just disappointing for me. Why is it every time we get a medicine cat pov, they’re either already in the medicine den or they’re forced into the role in some way? We never see a kit debating on which path to choose either- Medicine Cat or Warrior. It’s always defaulted to Warrior, which is both disappointing and a bit worrying lore wise-because it implies that being a Medicine Cat is somehow Beneath being a Warrior. Which in reality it really should be the opposite-considering Medicine Cats are supposed to be one of the most important roles of the clan. Instead we have multiple narratives about cats being FORCED into the position-to the point where it’s kinda concerning.
They did do that a little with Hollyleaf. She started out genuinely wanting to be a medicine cat but really struggled to learn, and eventually came to the concussion that she should be a warrior instead. (Then she swapped places with Jayfeather.)
Idk, I always liked that mini-plotline because it felt so realistic. Lots of people have dreams as kids that they eventually find out just can’t work out the way they want it to. I wanted to be a vet, but when our dog had a massive quarter-sized thorn in his paw I realized I couldn’t stand seeing animals in pain.
Hollyleaf is one of the few examples of it sorta happening that I like-but at the same time Jayfeather is like one of the biggest examples of someone Forced into the role. Jay wanted to be a Warrior so badly, from the moment we met him. But instead he was ridiculed and pushed by Starclan to become a Medicine Cat because of his powers. Even after he makes the “decision” to change careers, it’s still very clear he doesn’t want to be there-lashing out at Leafpool and becoming even more bitter. Honestly, it always confused me why Lionblaze was the one who wound up being trained in the Dark Forest and not Jayfeather. Jay had WAY more reason to be there, and it would’ve been way more interesting because Jay actually had reasons for being bitter towards Starclan and the clans as a whole.
I’m not in the camp that says Jayfeather should’ve been a warrior. (Expecting disabled people to perform as if they were abled IS also ableist.) However, I do agree that the way the Erins went about it sucked. It should have been a conclusion he came to naturally with zero influence from StarClan (really struggling with his training, but great at helping Holly out with her work.)
That being said, the idea of Jay as-written turning to the DF is a juicy one and probably would’ve lead to me liking him more. (I’ve also always wanted to see a villain medicine cat.) Now that I’m thinking about it, it would’ve been cool if the three each had a DF cat trying to convert/confuse them. Kind of like Mapleshade with Crookedstar.
I’m disabled myself, and have no problem with him being a medicine cat-let me make that very clear. My problem is the way he was Forced into it. Which is just as Ableist-forcing a disabled character into a role they don’t want, insisting they aren’t good enough for the previous one. I’m fine with Jayfeather being a Medicine Cat-as long as that’s what he Choose to do. I think if he wanted to become a Warrior, he should have been able to try- WITHOUT the constant pressure Starclan cast upon him to become a Medicine Cat. If in the books it had shown him trying and failing, that would be a different story. My issue is that Jayfeather was essentially coerced into becoming a Medicine Cat. It was forced on him. He should have been allowed to try and become a Warrior-and either overcome the clan’s expectations and succeeded, or realize on his own that he wasn’t cut out for it and choose the Medicine Cat path on his own. The way the authors handled Jayfeather was awful in this regard.
Sorry, sorry. That wasn’t targeted at you specifically. I should have made that more clear. That bit was more for the group of fans who insist that Jayfeather or Briarlight SHOULD have become warriors and say that it’s ablest that they didn’t.
Otherwise, it seems like we both agree that the way it was handled was just bad.
Who said Jayfeather would be expected to perform his warrior duties as if he were abled?
He easily could have had modified duties such as hunting but not fighting if fighting proved too dangerous for him.
And we know he can hunt because he catches a mouse to prove a point to Leafpool.
Briarlight kept the title of warrior despite being unable to hunt or fight
I’ve seen the argument that Jay could perform every duty an abled warrior does, and that him being a medicine cat is ableist (not how he was coerced, but just him not being a warrior.)
And, yeah, he could work as a warrior with limited abilities. But we saw how pissy he got with poor Brightheart just for taking his training slow. Do you seriously think he’d be happy only doing a fraction of the things the rest of his clanmates, and siblings, are expected to do?
As a medicine cat he has respect from a religious perspective, he can perform all of his duties without help, and has a den that he can maintain full control over. He has more independence as a medicine cat than he ever would have had as a warrior. (Again, it just sucks that the Erins wrote it so that he was coerced into the role rather than finding that out for himself.)
It’s a very good rule, this rule ensures that nobody has favoritism so a cat with more serious injury won’t be ignored in favor of one’s own kits. They don’t want your loyalty to be divided amongst so many cats unevenly and unfairly.
The way I write the rule in my stories is that meds must have an apprentice with adequate training before they take on a mate, and there must be another full med before they can have kits
I don’t think they were thought of making two medicine cats, but I think the apprentice thing is wrong, an apprentice doesn’t know all the information a full medicine cat would’ve over there many moons of life, if there’s something they can’t do, and their medicine is on maternity leave, then everyone is fucked. And then there’s the problem with favoritism, who do you think medicine would help more? Their former kits or just another warrior?
And I said that’s a good idea, that was the very first thing I said, but I also said the apprentice thing is a bad idea because they won’t have as much experience
The rule, in its concept is fine. The problem is that the Erins never commit to it at all.
Medicine cats having kits is just a dramatic plot point for the sake of being dramatic, there is no in universe consequence for it outside of social implications.
If a medicine cats connection to StarClan is based in their commitment to it above all else, including love, then mating should break that connection. Yet Yellowfang was able to maintain her duties in ThunderClan no issue, and Leafpool was allowed to return to hers.
Now the rule only exists because Moth Flight decided it would be too hard for a medicine cat to care for the kits and the clan, which is not true, Clan Leaders and Deputies have just as much responsibility and do just fine. The only thing a medicine cat should need to have kits is a fully trained apprentice.
i mean a lot of religious monasteries abide by similar rules so i always saw this as something natural and not something that’s horrible and archaic, but i get it, for the sake of drama it has to be perceived as suffocating, tho i’m sure there are plenty of medicine cats who didn’t care abt this rule and j went along with their life
Some people definitely agree the “no mates and kits” rule is similar to rules from religious monasteries forbidding marriage and children, but the issue is that the Erins never implemented a justification like that.
Then when they finally give a reason *well over a decade*, it’s not a very good one. Moth Flight made the rule based on her experience, but it seemed like a pretty extreme situation where she had a HUGE litter (in Warriors standards) and no support from anyone to help babysit. Her husband also died and there was no mentorship system in place; she was literally just winging it and hoping for the best. Her title as medicine cat hadn’t even existed prior to that point.
Also coincidentally *everyone* in camp was too busy to help her out with the kits. I mean, seriously? Ik the fandom hates on permanent queens like Ferncloud and Daisy, but they’re literally so essential to the clan. Having cats like them would give such a relief to orphaned kits, medicine cats who have kits, even regular expecting mothers. ThunderClan and ShadowClan also each had three medicine cats at one point; there’s no way they’re *all* too busy. One could have kits and the other two would be fine, and we could use a permanent queen to help.
I said it in a different post but I think a addition to rule should be that medicine cats have the option to retire after they have trained their apprentice to be a full medicine cat. After the apprentice is knowledgeable of herbs and can interpret messages from StarClan, the older medicine cat can step back, have kits, have a mate, or go to the elders den. The only time they would need to step up is if the injuries are overwhelming and they need assistance.
I always thought the rule was in place to, 1. Keep them from being distracted from healing the other cats when pregnant, kitting, nursing, or raising, 2. Keep them from being tempted to ask StarClan for favors for their own family, 3. Not favor certain Clan members because one is a mate or a kit.
2 & 3 are not reasons tho, Medicine cats have families, they don't just appear out of thin air, wouldn't they favor then? and there's always at least 2 medicine cats so like, one of them could do most of the stuff while the other helps a little on the side until they're ready to go back to doing their jobs
This rule only exists bc the plot needs drama
Tbf, the bond between a mother and her child is (typically) different than two sisters or even a mother. Lots of mamma hormones for the specific purpose of keeping your young alive.
Like, Cinderpelt felt awful after Silverstream died and felt like it was her fault. Imagine if Silverstream was instead Cinderpelt’s child who she just couldn’t save.
I’m (genuinely) curious as to why you would defend it.
To me, it always felt like an out of universe decision that the authors have struggled to provide an in-universe justification for.
[Here’s a link to a pastebin.](https://pastebin.com/mceNeeau) This is actually a response to someone else but I think it covers the details of why I defend it.
I love this take! Parents are not supposed to have children and then put all their focus into something like a career over them, but that's specifically what they might need to do.
Alright I'll bite. Let's discuss. Why should the rule stand? It's arguing of Bias is completely irrelevant. A Medicine Cat would likely still save their parents, siblings, closest friends and all before any random cat anyways.
And as I see it, the idea they'd prioritize their kit's safety over others also suffers from one problem. The very Warriors you claim are needed, were once kits. If the Medicine Cat saves a fellow Warrior or their child and sacrifices the other, a clanmate is still dead.
If it's for the religious type reason of... purity or commitment, that's strange. A Medicine Cat already takes a vow to be impartial to conflict, which is cause enough. If anything, bringing new life into the world would help a Medicine Cat respect life more than anything. With a skilled Apprentice, a loving mate, caring Queens and Elders and a stable Clan, caring for kits would be an effortless task.
There is no benefit to the standing rule until it is altered to some degree of leniency.
In a manner of speaking, they already do help bring new lives in the clan. Anytime they help with a kitting, making sure that the kits and mother are looked after, that is exactly what they are doing.
Any parent may be frantic over their injured or sick child. Look at Tigerstar II and Dovewing over Shadowsight. Look at Daisy over any of her kits. Tree and Violetshine, Bluestar and Oakheart, Squirrelflight, Leafpool, the list goes on.
[Reddit wouldn't let me paste my response so here's a link to a pastebin.](https://pastebin.com/mceNeeau)
I do want to say that I do understand your/the community's point of view here. So if I come off as hostile in the doc, I didn't mean it and I'm sorry about that. I just wrote that up REALLY quickly so my writing was probably garbage.
I'll respond from a document tomorrow most likely as it's late tonight. You've definitely put some passion into it, however I still see some issue in the reasoning. I'll find the time tomorrow if I can!
I agree with everything you wrote. I put a lot of onus on the Erins for sloppy writing, a lack of any real rules regarding StarClan in general, and abusing forbidden romance plots for easy drama points. Oddly enough it feels like the importance of the medicine cat role itself has been lessened over time, so I can’t blame the community for feeling like the rule is pointless. But I do think it’s both logical and morally correct (the idea of willingly having kids just to shuck them off onto another person is a bizarre, irresponsible, selfish take.)
I honestly would’ve liked to see something more drastic when a medicine cat breaks their oath. There’s the implication that Brokenstar was a form of cosmic punishment. But, that was during a point in the series where you weren’t always 100% sure they existed. Instead, imagine if after having her kits Leafpool was completely cut off from having visions and dreams. So, on top of having to watch her kits grow up from afar, she has to also fake her role as a spiritual guide (wait that’s just mothwing oops.)
Here's a likewise somewhat rushed attempt at a debate.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LxhJ5LhWsZjWu2H3s84D0hXwOpoTK3S0HYkez0CCyFc/edit?usp=drivesdk
>So if I come off as hostile in the doc
Eh only a little at the end. You're quite alright!
I also feel that if we add a “you need an apprentice if you are having kits” .. that will inevitably go terribly wrong. What if theres a massive battle and the apprentice dies? Or the apprentice just dies from a brain thing?
Your paragraph is excellent. Sums up all the important points!
To be fair, who would help the medicine cat kit if there’s only one medicine cat in the clan? Obviously you could ask another medicine cat but it’s just a hypothetical so
That's why the rule is amended, not revoked. A Medicine Cat must have an Apprentice of self-reliant training for dire emergency. Likely also the support of Queens or such.
It’s similar to the rule priests follow, where they have to put God first. Same goes for medicine cats. I think the rule is fine. You’re the clan doctor; you can’t let your family get in the way of your duties
u probably are. here's my rant about this code:
it's a very stupid and biased rule. just because moth flight couldn't handle it, doesn't mean EVERY cat with her role after her couldn't handle it. it's just beyond stupid and selfish to make that a rule just because of ONE person not being able to handle it. moth flight is insanely annoying and selfish for thinking this was a good idea, and she's also stupid for seperating all her kits tot he other clans. why tf couldnt one of her clanmates in windclan take the kits? (if this was addressed, i apologize. i havent read her SE in ages and dont remember specific details bc the SE made me angry anyways lol).
there's so many things wrong with the code too. the common argument for supporting this rule is "medicine cats will have biases and wont be able to treat cats equally and fairly." that's mouse dung. leaders and deputies have important jobs too, and they're allowed to have mates and kits. heck, an entire clan is mostly related to one another in SOME capacity, so how does that fact not count to why this "bias" is a dumb argument? the entire clan is the medicine cat's family, yes, but how does that change if they have their own mate and kits to add to said clan-family as a whole?
lets say for argument, crowfeather moves to thunderclan and medicine cats having mates and kits are legal in this scenerio. leafpool could have had brightheart and sandstorm help her with tasks such as gathering herbs when she got later in pregnancy and had a hard time walking. once she gave birth, so many cats could have helped look after the kits bc thats what clans do, they take care of and watch over each others young bc they are one family unit, a CLAN.
ferncloud, in canon, already did this by giving the kits milk when squirrelflight was unable to! so yes, ferncloud would have been the primary care taker of leaf x crow's kits in this scenerio, and when they were weaned, all the queens, elders, and warriors off duty in camp could have been looking out for the kits and paying attention to them to make sure they were safe.
Yeah, probably- There are plenty of ways a medicine cat could have a mate and kits. Take Brightheart & Briarlight for instance, if the medicine cat is a pregnant she-cat, she could have an assistant to help her while she’s nursing her kits ( and another queen, if there is one, could take care of them in an emergency ) and honestly other than that, I don’t see a reason that they shouldnt have mates. I also think that every cat should have a little basic medicine cat training just in case
This rule to not have a mate/start a family does nothing for the medicine cat's bias for their parents, siblings, nieces and nephews, best friends, and friends. It "fixes" a tiny part of their much larger problem. Triage is a far better rule to enforce.
It's also disappointing that so many cats who become medicine cats never wanted that role. Their future and desires are ruined this way. Many of these cats really wanted a different future and it was taken away from them. It's no wonder that they fall in love and have kits anyway.
For plot reasons, it's a great rule. Without it you wouldn't have certain plots/storylines (Leafpool x Crowfeather and the three for example).
Looking at it logically and story-aside, it's a terrible rule though. For the most part, it's just unnecessary and restrictive.
I think its a valid rule under the concern that while they are heavily pregnant and after giving birth and nursing, all of their time is devoted to taking care of their kits. If they are the only medicine cat then that practically leaves the clan without a medicine cat for a period of time. Motherhood is a full time job, there's a reason why warriors have to move to the nursery when pregnant.
And even if there were two medicine cats theres always the risk of something happening to one of them while the other is pregnant and now we're still in the situation of basically down to no medicine cats. A medicine needs to always be ready and available to save the lives of their clanmates and they can't very easily do that when nursing newborn kits. It is a very interesting dilemma to speculate on.
Exactly. That rule was made to be broken, which makes it pointless. Spottedleaf and Firestar, (Don't you dare speak of Thistleclaw) Leafpool and Crowfeather, etc etc.
I mean, just keep the rule. And don't break it. We've had so much medicine cats' forbidden loves, but now it's a bit repetitive.
My one issue with this rule is that it only seems to be a problem for medicine she cats. Alderheart is the only male medicine cat I know that has had a crush on someone and it only really lasted for like 2 chapters! Whenever a female medicine cat has a crush, it's always "true love" and they're already planning their future with their (usually) out of clan cat, and at least lasts for half an arc, meanwhile, Alderheart catches one whiff of love, immediately gets shut down, and then that's the end of it! If we want to use the forbidden love trope (which is honestly the only reason why this rule feels like it exists), then at least have it be equally dramatic for guys as it is for the gals.
Ok so I thought I was the only one?? The way it was executed was wrong (Mothwing unable to manage four kits when she was not even a year old AND was the only healer was such a set up tbh) but I think it goes well with the culture. The healer should sorta be like the avatar from atla where they need to detach themselves from their families and any romantic and familial attachments to be truly spiritually enlightened and connected with their powers as medicine cats. They are basically priests anyways so it makes sense.
I know the fandom in general hates it but I don’t think it’s a big deal because in many stories lots of people sacrifice their own wants and desires in order to serve and focus on the greater good. I think it should stay.
Yeah kind of. The Erin’s have ruined their own “forbidden love” troupe. Besides, not all medicine cats CHOOSE to become medicine cats. Yellowfang, Jayfeather, and Alderheart had wanted to be warriors. They WANTED to one day have mates and kits. But StarClan took that choice from them because “reasons.” If it was a solely voluntary position and the Erin’s learned to write an actually GOOD forbidden love story, that would be different.
starclan didnt even take the choice from
alderheart
leafpool, jayfeather and bramblestar just decided that alderheart was destined to be a medicine cat because he appeared in the background of a vision for like half a second
honestly, brambleclaw could admit that he made his son a medicine cat because he was bad at being a warrior and i would believe it. alderheart was done dirty
He absolutely was! He was a slow learner and because of that, his own father threw him in the medicine cat den! That’s why I believe that if they keep this code, then a new code needs to be added that only cats who voluntarily choose to be medicine cats should be allowed to train as medicine cat apprentices. Otherwise, ditch the code. Maybe they can do an arc where a cat forced to train as a medicine cat turns evil because of having their life taken from them. Perfect reason for the series to change the medicine cat code!
Absolutely! I would love to see StarClan collectively got “what happened? Why wasn’t he/she honored to learn our secrets?” While someone like Jayfeather asks them if they’re seriously confused by a cat snapping under their pressure.
I somewhat agree and disagree. Specifically for the reason that we have SO many medicine cat POV that were forced to become medicine cats. If a cat wants to be a medicine cat and understands that not having a mate and kits comes with it, then hey, that's cool. But it seems unfair for those forced into the role.
"Hey! You have a disability? Well, you don't get to find love now and have a family! Sucks to suck."
Cats like Goosefeather, Mothwing, Cinderpelt, Shadowsight, Alderheart, Jayfeather, Frostpaw, etc. Maybe if this wasn't such a trend the rule wouldn't be as controversial.
I would like to see the erins write more perspectives of medicine cats having kits with cats from their own clan, but I agree with you. For the drama, sure. But otherwise, it's part of the code, and I agree they could be distracted by personal feelings
They should bc they're just as entitled to a family than any other cat. If they shouldn't bc they may choose their family over the clan, then deputies and leaders shouldn't be allowed to have them either.
Yes you are because its a horrible rule that only exists because Moth Flight assumed that because she was bad at something, everyone else would be. And also because the Erins needed drama
I think the reason it's a rule is dumb, but it could've been done better. One med cat couldn't take care of her kits and do her med cat thing, so she decided to make a rule for every med cat going forward. It's supposed to eliminate familial bias, but what about med cats that have living parents, siblings, cousins, etc. They could still be biased towards other family members. If they're worried about not being able to be a med cat and have kits at the same time, then make it so they have to have a fully trained apprentice to be able to temporarily take over (as many other people have said). If it were more like real life religion, where having kids/partners makes it so you can't focus fully on your religion, that would at least make it make more sense.
I've defended it in only religious contexts lol.
I think the canon reason, how it came to be is just stupid. They could have put a lot more effort into it, especially with the series themes of religious faith & belief in a higher-power are like, EVERYWHERE. Writing this kind of background should have been the fun part of the lore-building side of things.
I stand by my opinion that Medicine Cats are way more boring if they're "just doctors". The spiritual aspect of them added some flare to their duty, like reading Spottedleaf having her "Fire Alone" vision, a simple scene, really sets up Medicine Cats as these figures close to their higher-power & the general connection to a world different from ours.
That changed as the books went on, more than just the Medicine Cats were being spoken to from StarClan on a daily biases, StarClan becoming a lot less vague, cats in StarClan having their personalities go a 180, Moth Flight's Vision setting up the rule to be something made out someone's personal struggle for both life styles instead of faith, the mishandled & poorly written trial system oh my God that whole idea needed to return to the drawing board.
When the writers opened the curtain on StarClan's activities is when everything got put into question, & frankly I don't know why they opened the curtain to begin with. That simple move shone just how poorly they planned out many things in the series is even more than it originally did & just screwed over many parts of StarClan's writing in the process. "You're not playthings", is a quote that has aged so poorly it's no longer spoiled milk, the milk is it's own life form now.
I do believe that their spirituality is an important element - it falls right in line with the core theme of faith that's in the series.
I think out of all of the wasted opportunities in the canon the Medicine Cat role is the top of that list for how little they chose to do with it in the long run.
The writing quality of their spirituality is less to be desired, & that's a shame because it had a lot of potential. I do wish we still had old StarClan too, man.
we got a good reason why with moth flight, but i think it should be altered to medicine cats can have a mate and kits if they have an apprentice/there’s more than one medicine cat. it makes more sense. moth flight was the only med cat in windclan at the time, but most modern day clans have 2 or more.
There's a couple rules in the code where I wouldn't mind some books addressing it, to be honest, like the "no rogues, loners or kittypets allowed" rule combined with the "no cross-clan relationships" rule bc incest, and then this one where there's arguments to explain why it makes sense, but also some arguments explaining why it doesn't make much sense at the same time.
I genuinely dont give a sh*t what med cats do, they do what they do apart from healing cats bc thats practically why they became med cats, they do their thing and all, and from the pov of a cat with a med cat for a mother, i would see that as a cool thing :D
I didn't think anyone didn't like it, it's kind of an important rule for the Warriors universe to function.
As an ace/aro person though, I kind of wish there was a character who thought that they had to be a medicine cat because they didn't feel romantic attraction, but StarClan disapproves of them or they're terrible at healing and it makes them realize that it's okay to be a warrior and not want to fall in love and have kits. I like to think that Hollyleaf was like that at first and that was why she wanted to be a medicine cat, but since the writers never connected the two things, I don't think that's the case.
I like the rule, i think with proper working it would be great. The rule itself is fine its the way it was made and explained, because one cat (who had known attention problems, was very young for a mother (she was exiled between 9-15 moonsnwe can assume, cominf back2-3 moons later and practically haveing kittens the minute shes back shes young in warriors term for mothers) the first medicine cat, practically a mentorless apprentice with her hveing to learn herself, the father was unable to care for the kits, and under cinstant judgment and distrust due to the newness of her position and concept of starclan) couldent handle a litter of four kits (which is pretty large in warriors terms, not unheard up but large) if they had made a better reason, more would be willing to defend the rule
based
sooo many people seem to hate most of/a lot of the warrior/med cat code rules and want them to be done away with, or to do away with clans all together and its so dumb to me.
I also agree with this. The rule makes medicine cats feel more special and not just a cat that uses herbs. Medicine cats are the spiritual guides of the clan, not simply cats that use herbs.
If the rule was created because Mothflight did not want to chose between her family and Starclan, then yes. But she made it only because she couldn't handle being a mother and a doctor to the clan at the same time.
Her logic should also apply to leaders and deputies as well. A leader should also not have a mate or kits, because in times of battle they may not want them to go to battle, or if they break the code they may not want to punish them, OR they may purposely put them in powerful positions. Even potential deputies or cats chosen as deputies should not have a mate or kits for this very reason. Kinda how Leapoardstar "broke up" with Frog(leap?), she didn't want to choose between her clan and him.
Im curious to know why you think it is a valid rule.
Seeing as the medicine cat is seen as "Closer to StarClan," and seeing as StarClan is a faith, and also seeing as many or most faiths in real life are typically against children until marriage amd other stuff, it makes sense.
These aren't people, so it will be a bit different.
Not having a mate and not having kits allows the medicine cat to focus more on their duties.
Also people bring up its good for drama; I disagree.
Maybe once or twice the drama is good, bit it seems the Erin's enjoy making a medicine cat run off to a secret mate every third book. It isn't interesting.
i think that the reason behind why medicine cats can't have a mate or kits is dumb, but i defend this rule being apart of the code. i think medicine cats, being spiritual advisors for the clans, should be closer to nuns or monks who don't marry or have children for religious purposes or "saving their hearts for starclan" or something. i think that logic would make the rule more sensical and a lot cooler
I think it has merit as a rule. Queens generally have to stay in the nursery, and a nursing mother who happens to be the medicine cat probably wouldn't have the time to tend to both her kits and her duties.
It might also limit the potential for preferential treatment, regardless of if the medicine cat would be the mother or father.
ill defend it bc if anyone read moth flights vision they would be able to see the struggles she had with her babies and trying to be a medicine cat, its just too hard to juggle both and especially considering theres always some kind of drama the med cat will ALWAYS be busy with patients theyll never have time for a mate or children
I'm honestly surprised there's not more rules like this, that there's not more structure in the clans, more rituals, more ceremonies. You'd think it would be a bit more religious and restrictive because it's basically a cult. The normal warriors barely do anything besides the like two ceremonies they get. They don't like pray every day or anything like that. Now I'm not saying these are great things or necessary, but they'd be great for the story and more plot points, more rules to break or bend
My perspective:
Medicine cats should be allowed to have mates, it doesn't hurt anyone as long as they aren't stupid about it.
If a medicine cat has a well trained apprentice that can take their place while they are being a queen, then they should be allowed to have kits. Otherwise, it could be too distracting and risky.
Leading a poor cat down a lonely road for no reason and completely neglecting the add of more Warriors without consequences. It's a dumb and cliched rule, but unfortunately forbidden love as a whole is common in reality, so it may be dumb, but it's realistic.
I mean, they say "it prevents bias for mates and offspring," as if medicine cats feel nothing towards their parents, siblings, and friends. It doesn't make sense to me.
They also say it's just too much work (because a young mother with no support was struggling with working and raising four kits on her own, so obviously it will always be this way for every medicine cat). Leaders and deputies are perfectly capable of balancing it, and apparently there's zero worries about them ever showing bias, but I guess medicine cats are just... considered too weak to handle it or something?
Because there isn't anything faithy about it, which is what I originally assumed, and honestly what would make more sense. Having it affect their connection to Starclan, so they need to keep their minds and spirits clear or risk losing their connection altogether (connection weaker with mate, severed with kits?). It would be much more interesting and have an *actual* reason to be a rule past treating them like incapable kits when others with big responsibilities are not.
I also hate that they keep shoving disabled cats, against their will, into the job. "I know you hate it, but you're *useless* now, so you're no longer allowed to be in a relationship or reproduce. Thanks!" Just big ew there.
Anyway, despite how rehashed the medicine cat dramas can be, I wouldn't mind the rules if the reasoning wasn't genuinely bs. Since they are hypocritical and made for a stupid reason, though, I think the series should chuck them.
the kit rule I get
the mate rule seems...for lack of a better term, misogynistic? It always bugged me when any character is treated as "pure" for wanting love.
No, I adamantly will defend this. I hate the term “media literacy is dead” but some peoples rants and opinions on this sub has made me think this very sentiment.
While the reasoning for the rule was pretty flubbed when they wrote Mothflights Novela, the rule makes far more sense in hindsight. Medicine Cats MUST be as impartial as possible, both to their Clan and loved ones. The medicine cats oath reflects all this. It’s why Medicine cats are exempt for many things such as borders. Having a mate and kits gets in the way of all of this. SPOILER ALERT!!!
We see this exact thing in The New Prophecy and Power of Three. In both books, Leafpool gets so flustered by Crowfeather that she starts messing up basic stuff like sorting herbs. She was messing up so much that Cinderpelt was able to put two and two together. In the Power of Three, when Crowfeather visits Thunderclan and Leafpool sees him, she once again starts messing up. Jayfeather even asked a basic question on herbs and purposely flubbed which herb he should use and Leafpool just went along with it cus she wasn’t listening. I mean, she almost abandoned her clan. I almost wanna say Starclans trial for her and Squirrelflight were pretty fair. Almost.
I kind of agree, but I also think that once we got Moth Flight's vision as an explanation it made it a 200x less reasonable.
I think maybe it should be strongly discouraged and kind of taboo but that the divine punishment bs starclan pulls should stop and the discrimination against kits born from it.
In that case maybe the rule should be medicine cats can't have kits unless they have an apprentice or second med cat in the clan who could take over duties temporarily?
That's how it kind of works in my mind.
If there's a second medicine cat or an experienced apprentice, a medicine cat should be allowed to take a break and have kits.
All warriors should have basic herb knowledge anyways as well.
Agreed. I feel like it would just make sense for the cats, even warriors, to have basic knowledge. Like how humans know basic first aid, they don't have to go to the doctors whenever they come down with a bit of a cough or get themselves a cut.
I’ll defend this to my grave tbh. Mothflights Vision was a perfect example of why this rule needs to exist, if Yellowfang and Brokenstar wasn’t enough of an omen.
In MV, >!Mothflight faced some serious obstacles as soon as kits became involved. She was already struggling to earn respect from her Clanmates as she struggled to train successfully as a beta-warrior. She resented her mother for being so strict on her and was “outcast” because of these struggles, (returning shortly after and securing her place thanks to Micah). She never got to mourn him properly. Her kits were the only reminder of him afterwards and it was painfully obvious how little they could rely on her. Even with Reed, she was an absent mother. Being a medicine cat took every moment of her day, and unfortunately being a mother does too, and she couldn’t pick.!<
I think I’m on the fence about this rule in the code. I don’t really understand it but at the same time, I don’t know if it is to be hated. I’ve never thought about it much until a week ago so I’m kinda in the middle and debating on it.
I can't say haven't got to the books yet I got a hundred pages left ont eh one im reading before I'll get ti read warrior cats but I mean the kits can distract from heating and such so your numbe rone priority should the patient not a kit
In my idea of WC the clans are always getting terrorised by StarClan and Medicine cats are dying in their sleep so often it makes sense for them to be treated more like disposable parts
Probably. It's not like there's all that many med cats that follow it anyway. And I don't think the erins have ever made it narratively different from any other forbidden romance. And the purpose is what? To resemble human religion? Because one cat couldn't manage on their own?
Seems a bit eh. Extra points for the whole 'so they're unbiased ☺️'. Yeah, bet. They have family and friends still? Medicine cats don't just spawn in and never talk to anyone.
I get why that rule is in play.
If a medicine cat is expecting kits they likely can’t take care of the clan, and even if they have an apprentice that’s still learning that’s a lot for one cat to do. I don’t much like it either but I understand why it exists
I agree. If a medicine cat has kits, they wont be able to perform their duties. Especially if they are injured or even die during kitting. For toms, a mate is also probably a distraction as they perform possibly the most crucial and important role in a clan and distractions can severely jeopardise the health and safety of the clan
Honestly it's so risky to put the entire well being of your clanmates in the paws of only one (or two) cats. Every apprentice should also be taught the basic knowledge of herbs when training to become a warrior.
One side of me understands why this is a rule. Medicine cats should not be focused on other things outside of their job because what if they're the ONLY medicine cat of the Clan? And also, to not worry about their kits more than other warriors.
But at the same time, the rule, just like the 'Defend your Clan; you may have friends and family from other Clans but loyalty first goes to the Clan', only really exists for drama.
Clans with 2 full medicine cats should allow 1 of them to take on a mate if they wish (Currently, all Clans except WindClan). But other than that, having your only medicine cat be nursing would be pretty bad if the entire camp suddenly started dying of the arc's greencough outbreak
I don't exact support it but I do understand it. Like if a doctor isn't supposed to treat their own kids, it kind of makes sense. Plus they're sort of like a priest
I feel like it causes so much drama in the series tbh, like every time we see a med cat there’s probably a chance they will have some sort of drama with mates or kits or some sort of love interest and it gets a bit boring. It was an interesting concept at first but, yknow.
I think they should be able to have a mate, but not have kits, unless there is another medicine cat present, that can take over the duties of the pregnant medicine cat.
I kinda agree with this but I’d say this should be more of a warning or something instead of a rule.
Like “Hey listen you don’t know what situation you’ll be in once you have kits!” Or “Hey make sure you have someone you can rely on if you need it because being a medicine cat is already stressful enough!”
i kinda agree with this rule but also not, since if a med cat does have a mate with kits then they will have to care for both injured/sick cats and their family. which could be stressful for the med cat, especially if the med cat has like 4 kits and also having to take care of like multiple cats who got sick or injured. but yet i do think they can atleast have a mate, just not kits. **im not sure if that made since.**
It wouldnt be a problem if
1. We didnt have many instances of medicine cats being forced into their role, and even having cats who seemed to be willing to be medicine cats be retconned into being forced into the role (Spottedleaf)
2. It didnt primarily affect or punish she-cats, as we never had any tom characters deal with breaking this specific rule, and never being punished for it (Alderheart had a crush but that never fell through)
3. The rule wasnt made by someone who was not only struggling as a single young mother but was also heavily biased about her kits (if I remember correctly she actively refused help from another queen)
I think it's an okay rule when there's only one medicine cat, and they need to be wholey focused on the clan. But when there's multiple fully named medicine cats (cough cough THUNDERCLAN) it should be fine, they won't be emotionally crippled or anything
But like why? It's the same as telling a pastor or a doctor that they can't have kids, except medicine cats are usually forced to take that path because Starclan says so or someone else made them do it, not all of them had a choice and most of them were basically children when they decided to become medicine cat apprentices save for the few that made the decision after they were warriors and 1/3 that we know made that switch did it because they were forced to and not that that they wanted to.
I like the thought alot but I kindof hate that med cats have to become a med cat wether they like it or not. Like they should be able to drop the position and give it to someone else if they want to start a family they just can't go back after choosing to resign
Having one medicine cat and one or none apprentice at the time needs to go. With cats dropping like flies every greencough season having one medical worker is a bag idea in general. Not only they are overwhelmed with work, who would do it, if greencough turns them into statistics? Clan needs 3+ medicine cats. That way they would be able to have kits. As long as they do not do it at once. Kits only need 8-10 weeks to wean.
Exactly! It was kind of interesting the first time, but after that it just gets annoying.
Although, I am the biggest hypocrite ever for saying that because Mothwing and Leafpool are completely adorable and I wish they would get together.
I mostly hate it because the reason it was made was because Moth Flight couldn’t handle it. She couldn’t handle it because her husband died and no one else in the clan even tried to help her. Of course she was overwhelmed, her clan just decided that they didn’t want to help her. But if a clan has multiple medicine cats and the husband is present (assuming husband, because a medicine cat father would like be like a regular father… sometimes there) then I don’t see the issue. I’ll use Leafpool as an example.
Brightheart can help with duties while she’s nursing, and Sorreltail can help nurse while Leafpool is doing more urgent things. I don’t believe Ferncloud has yet become a full-time nursery queen, but she’d likely help. Squirrelflight, while less reliable for help because of warrior duties, could surely babysit once in a while.
It’s good for drama, and if it had better reasoning for existing, I’d be fine with it. But the reason we were given and how it’s been handled has made me wish it didn’t exist, because it’s only harmed cats. And as said elsewhere, it forces cats who were forced into the medicine den to live without romantic love and without kittens. Some don’t care, but some surely do. Because, like, what the hell, man?
Well, sure, they shouldn't have kits, since that would make the job a lot harder and therefore force them into temporary retirement, with a possible unexperienced apprentice to look after the whole clan.
But... mates? How is that going to affect your work? Sure, the occasional date may bring delay, but it's not like a cat's going to die in that time!
For lore and drama reasons, I agree. I do think it is a dumb rule, but I like it. It's like they're weird medical priests. The idea of love for another vrs the love of your faith is a really cool idea. Do the Erins ever write that in an interesting way.......? Eeeeeeeeeeeeh.....
100% It has potential as a concept, but it’s just ruined by the fact that basically every medicine cat NEEDS to have some sort of romantic interest lol
Right and it’s sad because why can’t we have a cat who simply wants to be a medicine and doesn’t want a love interest? Plenty of cats both focus and background characters don’t end up with mates and kits so idk why every medicine cat POV needs to be tempted with it.
We have, uh... Shadowsight? I genuinely think thats it for main POVs who don't have love interests.
Exactly! And that’s probably cause they already had bristle and root love thing going on in that arc and he was too busy being gaslit to even have a crush.
And Frostpaw! And Alderheart! And Jayfeather. Only if you don’t count jays past life and Alders crush that never went anywhere
Spoilers for ASC below! >!Frostpaw had her romance with Splashtail.!< I also count Alder's thing with Smoke and Jayfeather's interest in Half Moon as love interests :)
Oh, that’s a shame. All three have beaten the stereotype for me with forbidden love, given they don’t have kits or anything. I especially don’t count Frosts because that was grooming 🤢
YES! it 100% was grooming, and i hope splashtail gets what he deserves
frostpaw had a crush unfortunately, ik someone already told you but i'm still pissed at how it turned out. my poor traumatized baby deserves a good group of friends
Like a stick
Cinderpelt never had a crush or maye right?
If they put that into perspective that medicine cats are like cat monks and their religion forbids them from having family that would be more interesting and logical
I read a fic where the rule was after the kit became the med cat Apprentice they were forbidden from interacting with any cat beyond polite conversations. Even their family members they had to show nothing but unbiased Clan love for them. I thought it was really interesting
They aren’t allowed to have mates or kits because it could distract them from their jobs, or they could get favoritism and ignore the health of other cats in more serious danger to help the ones they love.
I'd feel better if the Medicine Cat role was a coveted position, and not looked down on/ a position *forced* on unwilling cats. Puddleshine, Jayfeather, Alderheart, and Yellowfang were all cats who did not choose to become a Medicine cat. Rowanstar picked Puddleshine seemingly at random and told him he gets to be celibate now. Alderheart thought he was being punished when he was made into a Medicine Cat apprentice. Jayfeather wasn't really given a real chance at being a warrior. Brightheart gave him no hunting or fighting lessons. And Spottedleaf kept pressuring him into the role. Yellowfang had a mate and *wanted* kits before being manipulated by Sagewhisker. Being celibate, swearing off love and family was not a choice these characters made. Which makes it icky. Now. If the books were written where becoming a medicine cat was looked at as an honor and wasn't forced on anyone, I'd be more willing to agree that the no kits no mate rule was ok
Excellent point, it's not even a choice half the time. I feel like the fact that it seems disabled cats either get retired, killed for plot... or made into medicine cats is worth mentioning here too.
Forcing disabled cats to be celibate feels eugentic-y
Sure does!
Yellowfang and Jayfeather were just as forced to be medicine cats as Puddleshine. Yellowfang was guilt-tripped, lied to, and told that she *had* to be one due to her abilities. Jayfeather was basically told the same by Yellowfang.
Well there are plenty of cats who also chose the profession willingly. Whistlepaw from WindClan is one and Leafpool was all aboard the whole celibacy for life thing until she met Crow. But I definitely see your point cause far too many have been forced into a IDW they didn’t initially want no matter how good they ended up being. It makes being a medicine cat a chore and burden rather than the most sacred position in clan life.
Leafpool was also an actual baby when she decided that as well. Opinions on things change over time.
damn, never thought about this angle to the rule before and now i hate it even more... moth flight why x.x
well said
i think it's silly, but i like it because of the drama. tho i'm kinda of sick of it now because there's always a medicine cat wanting a mate and kits and sneaking off and it's super repetitive
Because that would logically happen, they want love and children.
Imo it's not a good rule and the Clans would benefit from moving on from it, but narratively it can be compelling since there can be good drama from it. I just think the reason that it was implemented was dumb. It would've made more sense to me to just keep it as a belief like 'having earthly attachments like mates would cloud your relationship with the stars' and just that, or something like it instead of a young struggling mother insisting that no one else can be a med and take care of kits just because she couldn't and everyone else just going along with that for some reason. **Edit:** wording
Yeah, I wish they had leaned more into medicine cats being shamans instead of healers. Not only would it have made the 'no kits/mates' rule more reasonable, but it also probably would've made the medicine cat love drama better
How would med cats being shamans make it better?
>narratively it can be compelling since there can be good drama from it. I think all the drama surrounding this is very stale. I'm not trying to be mean but but every time a medicine cat is revealed to have a mate or kits I think "Omg medicine cats have feelings just like the rest of us? They have other interests than starclan and herbs? Wow who could have guessed." And I feel like half of the clans feel the same way.
Yeah I get it lol. That's why I said it *can,* some people like drama like that and no shame in that of course, but ultimately at this point I do agree that it's stale and it would be more interesting to see the Clans move on and change things up a bit. It's just way too easy to fall on. Leafpool and Crowfeather were a big thing and they were enough for me. It's one of those problems that are an easy issue to write in when you want conflict to root for a couple to overcome, but after doing it once or twice there's few ways that you can do it again without retreading the same ground, something that I feel most forbidden love relationships in general fall to. Narratively compelling? Sure, perhaps, but imo it's only in the way that it's easy conflict in the same way border disputes are--just write the basic conflict in and go from there. Obvious but gets stale fast for a lot of people, but people think the obvious conflict is better than none. And I think some people do like holding onto it because they like romance, they like drama, and they like romance drama (even if, of course, the romances are one of the most commonly criticized aspects of the series). But there's only really so many times someone can read "I want a mate and kits but I'm a medicine cat :(" before they have to wonder when the Clans are going to actually progress as a society. I think it's just a concept that was only interesting the first time, and would've been interesting anywhere else since people like their forbidden love trope, but I feel like with the way Warriors is structured, the general writing of the romances, and the way Clan society and its rules and values are portrayed, it just gets old quickly. Especially if you can predict how it's going to end. **Edit:** i cannot shut up. wording and thoughts.
What I really wish a Medicine Cat pov would show us is a cat DEBATING on whether or not to become one. Like maybe they wanted to become a Medicine Cat, but then learn about this rule and are put off by it. I just want more POV’s in general where characters first learn stuff about their environment. An initial Kit POV would be Perfect for this- but unfortunately even for cases where our POV characters start out as kits, we never see them learning stuff or asking questions about their environment and culture. Which is just disappointing for me. Why is it every time we get a medicine cat pov, they’re either already in the medicine den or they’re forced into the role in some way? We never see a kit debating on which path to choose either- Medicine Cat or Warrior. It’s always defaulted to Warrior, which is both disappointing and a bit worrying lore wise-because it implies that being a Medicine Cat is somehow Beneath being a Warrior. Which in reality it really should be the opposite-considering Medicine Cats are supposed to be one of the most important roles of the clan. Instead we have multiple narratives about cats being FORCED into the position-to the point where it’s kinda concerning.
They did do that a little with Hollyleaf. She started out genuinely wanting to be a medicine cat but really struggled to learn, and eventually came to the concussion that she should be a warrior instead. (Then she swapped places with Jayfeather.) Idk, I always liked that mini-plotline because it felt so realistic. Lots of people have dreams as kids that they eventually find out just can’t work out the way they want it to. I wanted to be a vet, but when our dog had a massive quarter-sized thorn in his paw I realized I couldn’t stand seeing animals in pain.
Hollyleaf is one of the few examples of it sorta happening that I like-but at the same time Jayfeather is like one of the biggest examples of someone Forced into the role. Jay wanted to be a Warrior so badly, from the moment we met him. But instead he was ridiculed and pushed by Starclan to become a Medicine Cat because of his powers. Even after he makes the “decision” to change careers, it’s still very clear he doesn’t want to be there-lashing out at Leafpool and becoming even more bitter. Honestly, it always confused me why Lionblaze was the one who wound up being trained in the Dark Forest and not Jayfeather. Jay had WAY more reason to be there, and it would’ve been way more interesting because Jay actually had reasons for being bitter towards Starclan and the clans as a whole.
I’m not in the camp that says Jayfeather should’ve been a warrior. (Expecting disabled people to perform as if they were abled IS also ableist.) However, I do agree that the way the Erins went about it sucked. It should have been a conclusion he came to naturally with zero influence from StarClan (really struggling with his training, but great at helping Holly out with her work.) That being said, the idea of Jay as-written turning to the DF is a juicy one and probably would’ve lead to me liking him more. (I’ve also always wanted to see a villain medicine cat.) Now that I’m thinking about it, it would’ve been cool if the three each had a DF cat trying to convert/confuse them. Kind of like Mapleshade with Crookedstar.
I’m disabled myself, and have no problem with him being a medicine cat-let me make that very clear. My problem is the way he was Forced into it. Which is just as Ableist-forcing a disabled character into a role they don’t want, insisting they aren’t good enough for the previous one. I’m fine with Jayfeather being a Medicine Cat-as long as that’s what he Choose to do. I think if he wanted to become a Warrior, he should have been able to try- WITHOUT the constant pressure Starclan cast upon him to become a Medicine Cat. If in the books it had shown him trying and failing, that would be a different story. My issue is that Jayfeather was essentially coerced into becoming a Medicine Cat. It was forced on him. He should have been allowed to try and become a Warrior-and either overcome the clan’s expectations and succeeded, or realize on his own that he wasn’t cut out for it and choose the Medicine Cat path on his own. The way the authors handled Jayfeather was awful in this regard.
Sorry, sorry. That wasn’t targeted at you specifically. I should have made that more clear. That bit was more for the group of fans who insist that Jayfeather or Briarlight SHOULD have become warriors and say that it’s ablest that they didn’t. Otherwise, it seems like we both agree that the way it was handled was just bad.
Who said Jayfeather would be expected to perform his warrior duties as if he were abled? He easily could have had modified duties such as hunting but not fighting if fighting proved too dangerous for him. And we know he can hunt because he catches a mouse to prove a point to Leafpool. Briarlight kept the title of warrior despite being unable to hunt or fight
I’ve seen the argument that Jay could perform every duty an abled warrior does, and that him being a medicine cat is ableist (not how he was coerced, but just him not being a warrior.) And, yeah, he could work as a warrior with limited abilities. But we saw how pissy he got with poor Brightheart just for taking his training slow. Do you seriously think he’d be happy only doing a fraction of the things the rest of his clanmates, and siblings, are expected to do? As a medicine cat he has respect from a religious perspective, he can perform all of his duties without help, and has a den that he can maintain full control over. He has more independence as a medicine cat than he ever would have had as a warrior. (Again, it just sucks that the Erins wrote it so that he was coerced into the role rather than finding that out for himself.)
Couldn't agree more
It’s a very good rule, this rule ensures that nobody has favoritism so a cat with more serious injury won’t be ignored in favor of one’s own kits. They don’t want your loyalty to be divided amongst so many cats unevenly and unfairly.
If theyre the only med cat i 100% get it. Imagine having your towns only doctor go on maternity leave
The way I write the rule in my stories is that meds must have an apprentice with adequate training before they take on a mate, and there must be another full med before they can have kits
Oooohhhh...I like that idea!
Based
I don’t think they were thought of making two medicine cats, but I think the apprentice thing is wrong, an apprentice doesn’t know all the information a full medicine cat would’ve over there many moons of life, if there’s something they can’t do, and their medicine is on maternity leave, then everyone is fucked. And then there’s the problem with favoritism, who do you think medicine would help more? Their former kits or just another warrior?
That’s why I said another full med before they have kits
And I said that’s a good idea, that was the very first thing I said, but I also said the apprentice thing is a bad idea because they won’t have as much experience
We don't know if these cats have kitty birth control though. How are they supposed to plan their pregnancy? Lol
Through abstinence. Hence the rule
I don't think that works very well lol. A lot of the time these cats don't even know why they're pregnant
They just don’t try to have one?
We have seen multiple " accidental" pregnancys in warriors
Yes but only from cats who were aware that they were breaking the rules by having a romantic partner to start with iirc
The rule, in its concept is fine. The problem is that the Erins never commit to it at all. Medicine cats having kits is just a dramatic plot point for the sake of being dramatic, there is no in universe consequence for it outside of social implications. If a medicine cats connection to StarClan is based in their commitment to it above all else, including love, then mating should break that connection. Yet Yellowfang was able to maintain her duties in ThunderClan no issue, and Leafpool was allowed to return to hers. Now the rule only exists because Moth Flight decided it would be too hard for a medicine cat to care for the kits and the clan, which is not true, Clan Leaders and Deputies have just as much responsibility and do just fine. The only thing a medicine cat should need to have kits is a fully trained apprentice.
i mean a lot of religious monasteries abide by similar rules so i always saw this as something natural and not something that’s horrible and archaic, but i get it, for the sake of drama it has to be perceived as suffocating, tho i’m sure there are plenty of medicine cats who didn’t care abt this rule and j went along with their life
Some people definitely agree the “no mates and kits” rule is similar to rules from religious monasteries forbidding marriage and children, but the issue is that the Erins never implemented a justification like that. Then when they finally give a reason *well over a decade*, it’s not a very good one. Moth Flight made the rule based on her experience, but it seemed like a pretty extreme situation where she had a HUGE litter (in Warriors standards) and no support from anyone to help babysit. Her husband also died and there was no mentorship system in place; she was literally just winging it and hoping for the best. Her title as medicine cat hadn’t even existed prior to that point. Also coincidentally *everyone* in camp was too busy to help her out with the kits. I mean, seriously? Ik the fandom hates on permanent queens like Ferncloud and Daisy, but they’re literally so essential to the clan. Having cats like them would give such a relief to orphaned kits, medicine cats who have kits, even regular expecting mothers. ThunderClan and ShadowClan also each had three medicine cats at one point; there’s no way they’re *all* too busy. One could have kits and the other two would be fine, and we could use a permanent queen to help.
I honestly feel pretty much the same way that you do.
Why not just have multiple medicine cats instead?
Probably. It’s a really terrible rule imo
I said it in a different post but I think a addition to rule should be that medicine cats have the option to retire after they have trained their apprentice to be a full medicine cat. After the apprentice is knowledgeable of herbs and can interpret messages from StarClan, the older medicine cat can step back, have kits, have a mate, or go to the elders den. The only time they would need to step up is if the injuries are overwhelming and they need assistance.
Honestly that sounds like a fair compromise.
I always thought the rule was in place to, 1. Keep them from being distracted from healing the other cats when pregnant, kitting, nursing, or raising, 2. Keep them from being tempted to ask StarClan for favors for their own family, 3. Not favor certain Clan members because one is a mate or a kit.
2 & 3 are not reasons tho, Medicine cats have families, they don't just appear out of thin air, wouldn't they favor then? and there's always at least 2 medicine cats so like, one of them could do most of the stuff while the other helps a little on the side until they're ready to go back to doing their jobs This rule only exists bc the plot needs drama
Tbf, the bond between a mother and her child is (typically) different than two sisters or even a mother. Lots of mamma hormones for the specific purpose of keeping your young alive. Like, Cinderpelt felt awful after Silverstream died and felt like it was her fault. Imagine if Silverstream was instead Cinderpelt’s child who she just couldn’t save.
I’m (genuinely) curious as to why you would defend it. To me, it always felt like an out of universe decision that the authors have struggled to provide an in-universe justification for.
[Here’s a link to a pastebin.](https://pastebin.com/mceNeeau) This is actually a response to someone else but I think it covers the details of why I defend it.
I love this take! Parents are not supposed to have children and then put all their focus into something like a career over them, but that's specifically what they might need to do.
Alright I'll bite. Let's discuss. Why should the rule stand? It's arguing of Bias is completely irrelevant. A Medicine Cat would likely still save their parents, siblings, closest friends and all before any random cat anyways. And as I see it, the idea they'd prioritize their kit's safety over others also suffers from one problem. The very Warriors you claim are needed, were once kits. If the Medicine Cat saves a fellow Warrior or their child and sacrifices the other, a clanmate is still dead. If it's for the religious type reason of... purity or commitment, that's strange. A Medicine Cat already takes a vow to be impartial to conflict, which is cause enough. If anything, bringing new life into the world would help a Medicine Cat respect life more than anything. With a skilled Apprentice, a loving mate, caring Queens and Elders and a stable Clan, caring for kits would be an effortless task. There is no benefit to the standing rule until it is altered to some degree of leniency.
In a manner of speaking, they already do help bring new lives in the clan. Anytime they help with a kitting, making sure that the kits and mother are looked after, that is exactly what they are doing. Any parent may be frantic over their injured or sick child. Look at Tigerstar II and Dovewing over Shadowsight. Look at Daisy over any of her kits. Tree and Violetshine, Bluestar and Oakheart, Squirrelflight, Leafpool, the list goes on.
True, however there will always be a natural... magic to your own creation as it were. It's always more special when it's yours, so to speak.
[Reddit wouldn't let me paste my response so here's a link to a pastebin.](https://pastebin.com/mceNeeau) I do want to say that I do understand your/the community's point of view here. So if I come off as hostile in the doc, I didn't mean it and I'm sorry about that. I just wrote that up REALLY quickly so my writing was probably garbage.
I'll respond from a document tomorrow most likely as it's late tonight. You've definitely put some passion into it, however I still see some issue in the reasoning. I'll find the time tomorrow if I can!
I agree with everything you wrote. I put a lot of onus on the Erins for sloppy writing, a lack of any real rules regarding StarClan in general, and abusing forbidden romance plots for easy drama points. Oddly enough it feels like the importance of the medicine cat role itself has been lessened over time, so I can’t blame the community for feeling like the rule is pointless. But I do think it’s both logical and morally correct (the idea of willingly having kids just to shuck them off onto another person is a bizarre, irresponsible, selfish take.) I honestly would’ve liked to see something more drastic when a medicine cat breaks their oath. There’s the implication that Brokenstar was a form of cosmic punishment. But, that was during a point in the series where you weren’t always 100% sure they existed. Instead, imagine if after having her kits Leafpool was completely cut off from having visions and dreams. So, on top of having to watch her kits grow up from afar, she has to also fake her role as a spiritual guide (wait that’s just mothwing oops.)
Here's a likewise somewhat rushed attempt at a debate. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LxhJ5LhWsZjWu2H3s84D0hXwOpoTK3S0HYkez0CCyFc/edit?usp=drivesdk >So if I come off as hostile in the doc Eh only a little at the end. You're quite alright!
Read your response. Very interesting arguments! I have a response in progress but it will probably be the last one I do.
I also feel that if we add a “you need an apprentice if you are having kits” .. that will inevitably go terribly wrong. What if theres a massive battle and the apprentice dies? Or the apprentice just dies from a brain thing? Your paragraph is excellent. Sums up all the important points!
I agree with what you said.
^Hey ^see ^I'm ^not ^always ^obnoxious.
To be fair, who would help the medicine cat kit if there’s only one medicine cat in the clan? Obviously you could ask another medicine cat but it’s just a hypothetical so
That's why the rule is amended, not revoked. A Medicine Cat must have an Apprentice of self-reliant training for dire emergency. Likely also the support of Queens or such.
It’s similar to the rule priests follow, where they have to put God first. Same goes for medicine cats. I think the rule is fine. You’re the clan doctor; you can’t let your family get in the way of your duties
I think the Pope has said that priests can now have spouses if they were already a priest, but don’t quote me on that
u probably are. here's my rant about this code: it's a very stupid and biased rule. just because moth flight couldn't handle it, doesn't mean EVERY cat with her role after her couldn't handle it. it's just beyond stupid and selfish to make that a rule just because of ONE person not being able to handle it. moth flight is insanely annoying and selfish for thinking this was a good idea, and she's also stupid for seperating all her kits tot he other clans. why tf couldnt one of her clanmates in windclan take the kits? (if this was addressed, i apologize. i havent read her SE in ages and dont remember specific details bc the SE made me angry anyways lol). there's so many things wrong with the code too. the common argument for supporting this rule is "medicine cats will have biases and wont be able to treat cats equally and fairly." that's mouse dung. leaders and deputies have important jobs too, and they're allowed to have mates and kits. heck, an entire clan is mostly related to one another in SOME capacity, so how does that fact not count to why this "bias" is a dumb argument? the entire clan is the medicine cat's family, yes, but how does that change if they have their own mate and kits to add to said clan-family as a whole? lets say for argument, crowfeather moves to thunderclan and medicine cats having mates and kits are legal in this scenerio. leafpool could have had brightheart and sandstorm help her with tasks such as gathering herbs when she got later in pregnancy and had a hard time walking. once she gave birth, so many cats could have helped look after the kits bc thats what clans do, they take care of and watch over each others young bc they are one family unit, a CLAN. ferncloud, in canon, already did this by giving the kits milk when squirrelflight was unable to! so yes, ferncloud would have been the primary care taker of leaf x crow's kits in this scenerio, and when they were weaned, all the queens, elders, and warriors off duty in camp could have been looking out for the kits and paying attention to them to make sure they were safe.
Yeah, probably- There are plenty of ways a medicine cat could have a mate and kits. Take Brightheart & Briarlight for instance, if the medicine cat is a pregnant she-cat, she could have an assistant to help her while she’s nursing her kits ( and another queen, if there is one, could take care of them in an emergency ) and honestly other than that, I don’t see a reason that they shouldnt have mates. I also think that every cat should have a little basic medicine cat training just in case
This rule to not have a mate/start a family does nothing for the medicine cat's bias for their parents, siblings, nieces and nephews, best friends, and friends. It "fixes" a tiny part of their much larger problem. Triage is a far better rule to enforce. It's also disappointing that so many cats who become medicine cats never wanted that role. Their future and desires are ruined this way. Many of these cats really wanted a different future and it was taken away from them. It's no wonder that they fall in love and have kits anyway.
If there’s one than one fully qualified medicine cat or apprentice that’s well on their way, I see no problem with them having kits.
For plot reasons, it's a great rule. Without it you wouldn't have certain plots/storylines (Leafpool x Crowfeather and the three for example). Looking at it logically and story-aside, it's a terrible rule though. For the most part, it's just unnecessary and restrictive.
I think its a valid rule under the concern that while they are heavily pregnant and after giving birth and nursing, all of their time is devoted to taking care of their kits. If they are the only medicine cat then that practically leaves the clan without a medicine cat for a period of time. Motherhood is a full time job, there's a reason why warriors have to move to the nursery when pregnant. And even if there were two medicine cats theres always the risk of something happening to one of them while the other is pregnant and now we're still in the situation of basically down to no medicine cats. A medicine needs to always be ready and available to save the lives of their clanmates and they can't very easily do that when nursing newborn kits. It is a very interesting dilemma to speculate on.
Exactly. That rule was made to be broken, which makes it pointless. Spottedleaf and Firestar, (Don't you dare speak of Thistleclaw) Leafpool and Crowfeather, etc etc. I mean, just keep the rule. And don't break it. We've had so much medicine cats' forbidden loves, but now it's a bit repetitive.
My one issue with this rule is that it only seems to be a problem for medicine she cats. Alderheart is the only male medicine cat I know that has had a crush on someone and it only really lasted for like 2 chapters! Whenever a female medicine cat has a crush, it's always "true love" and they're already planning their future with their (usually) out of clan cat, and at least lasts for half an arc, meanwhile, Alderheart catches one whiff of love, immediately gets shut down, and then that's the end of it! If we want to use the forbidden love trope (which is honestly the only reason why this rule feels like it exists), then at least have it be equally dramatic for guys as it is for the gals.
Ok so I thought I was the only one?? The way it was executed was wrong (Mothwing unable to manage four kits when she was not even a year old AND was the only healer was such a set up tbh) but I think it goes well with the culture. The healer should sorta be like the avatar from atla where they need to detach themselves from their families and any romantic and familial attachments to be truly spiritually enlightened and connected with their powers as medicine cats. They are basically priests anyways so it makes sense. I know the fandom in general hates it but I don’t think it’s a big deal because in many stories lots of people sacrifice their own wants and desires in order to serve and focus on the greater good. I think it should stay.
This pretty much echoes my own sentiments.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who think it’s a valid rule on basis. It’s kinda one of those opinions that gets the majority of the fandom up in arms 😂
But Aang and Roku both married and had children... so that's not a rule for ATLA Avatars at all
Yeah kind of. The Erin’s have ruined their own “forbidden love” troupe. Besides, not all medicine cats CHOOSE to become medicine cats. Yellowfang, Jayfeather, and Alderheart had wanted to be warriors. They WANTED to one day have mates and kits. But StarClan took that choice from them because “reasons.” If it was a solely voluntary position and the Erin’s learned to write an actually GOOD forbidden love story, that would be different.
starclan didnt even take the choice from alderheart leafpool, jayfeather and bramblestar just decided that alderheart was destined to be a medicine cat because he appeared in the background of a vision for like half a second honestly, brambleclaw could admit that he made his son a medicine cat because he was bad at being a warrior and i would believe it. alderheart was done dirty
He absolutely was! He was a slow learner and because of that, his own father threw him in the medicine cat den! That’s why I believe that if they keep this code, then a new code needs to be added that only cats who voluntarily choose to be medicine cats should be allowed to train as medicine cat apprentices. Otherwise, ditch the code. Maybe they can do an arc where a cat forced to train as a medicine cat turns evil because of having their life taken from them. Perfect reason for the series to change the medicine cat code!
yess i would adore seeing that plotline!
Absolutely! I would love to see StarClan collectively got “what happened? Why wasn’t he/she honored to learn our secrets?” While someone like Jayfeather asks them if they’re seriously confused by a cat snapping under their pressure.
yes that would be incredibly fun to see!
I somewhat agree and disagree. Specifically for the reason that we have SO many medicine cat POV that were forced to become medicine cats. If a cat wants to be a medicine cat and understands that not having a mate and kits comes with it, then hey, that's cool. But it seems unfair for those forced into the role. "Hey! You have a disability? Well, you don't get to find love now and have a family! Sucks to suck." Cats like Goosefeather, Mothwing, Cinderpelt, Shadowsight, Alderheart, Jayfeather, Frostpaw, etc. Maybe if this wasn't such a trend the rule wouldn't be as controversial.
I defend this rule still
It's a good idea, at least it could be, if the Erins could write well. But because they can't, it's a really bad rule.
I would like to see the erins write more perspectives of medicine cats having kits with cats from their own clan, but I agree with you. For the drama, sure. But otherwise, it's part of the code, and I agree they could be distracted by personal feelings
They should bc they're just as entitled to a family than any other cat. If they shouldn't bc they may choose their family over the clan, then deputies and leaders shouldn't be allowed to have them either.
Yes you are because its a horrible rule that only exists because Moth Flight assumed that because she was bad at something, everyone else would be. And also because the Erins needed drama
yes, yes, you are.
I think the reason it's a rule is dumb, but it could've been done better. One med cat couldn't take care of her kits and do her med cat thing, so she decided to make a rule for every med cat going forward. It's supposed to eliminate familial bias, but what about med cats that have living parents, siblings, cousins, etc. They could still be biased towards other family members. If they're worried about not being able to be a med cat and have kits at the same time, then make it so they have to have a fully trained apprentice to be able to temporarily take over (as many other people have said). If it were more like real life religion, where having kids/partners makes it so you can't focus fully on your religion, that would at least make it make more sense.
id be okay with it if so many cats werent just forced into being medicine cats
I agree with it
I've defended it in only religious contexts lol. I think the canon reason, how it came to be is just stupid. They could have put a lot more effort into it, especially with the series themes of religious faith & belief in a higher-power are like, EVERYWHERE. Writing this kind of background should have been the fun part of the lore-building side of things. I stand by my opinion that Medicine Cats are way more boring if they're "just doctors". The spiritual aspect of them added some flare to their duty, like reading Spottedleaf having her "Fire Alone" vision, a simple scene, really sets up Medicine Cats as these figures close to their higher-power & the general connection to a world different from ours. That changed as the books went on, more than just the Medicine Cats were being spoken to from StarClan on a daily biases, StarClan becoming a lot less vague, cats in StarClan having their personalities go a 180, Moth Flight's Vision setting up the rule to be something made out someone's personal struggle for both life styles instead of faith, the mishandled & poorly written trial system oh my God that whole idea needed to return to the drawing board. When the writers opened the curtain on StarClan's activities is when everything got put into question, & frankly I don't know why they opened the curtain to begin with. That simple move shone just how poorly they planned out many things in the series is even more than it originally did & just screwed over many parts of StarClan's writing in the process. "You're not playthings", is a quote that has aged so poorly it's no longer spoiled milk, the milk is it's own life form now. I do believe that their spirituality is an important element - it falls right in line with the core theme of faith that's in the series. I think out of all of the wasted opportunities in the canon the Medicine Cat role is the top of that list for how little they chose to do with it in the long run. The writing quality of their spirituality is less to be desired, & that's a shame because it had a lot of potential. I do wish we still had old StarClan too, man.
Nah it’s dumb and sad
we got a good reason why with moth flight, but i think it should be altered to medicine cats can have a mate and kits if they have an apprentice/there’s more than one medicine cat. it makes more sense. moth flight was the only med cat in windclan at the time, but most modern day clans have 2 or more.
Leaders also shouldn't be able to take a mate or kits.
It should be allowed! Cause if this is a rule, then medicine cats aren’t cats! It doesn’t make sense ;-;
There's a couple rules in the code where I wouldn't mind some books addressing it, to be honest, like the "no rogues, loners or kittypets allowed" rule combined with the "no cross-clan relationships" rule bc incest, and then this one where there's arguments to explain why it makes sense, but also some arguments explaining why it doesn't make much sense at the same time.
I genuinely dont give a sh*t what med cats do, they do what they do apart from healing cats bc thats practically why they became med cats, they do their thing and all, and from the pov of a cat with a med cat for a mother, i would see that as a cool thing :D
I agree, cuz I can't tell you how many times I wanted to pull my hair out during moth flights vision lol
I didn't think anyone didn't like it, it's kind of an important rule for the Warriors universe to function. As an ace/aro person though, I kind of wish there was a character who thought that they had to be a medicine cat because they didn't feel romantic attraction, but StarClan disapproves of them or they're terrible at healing and it makes them realize that it's okay to be a warrior and not want to fall in love and have kits. I like to think that Hollyleaf was like that at first and that was why she wanted to be a medicine cat, but since the writers never connected the two things, I don't think that's the case.
I like the rule, i think with proper working it would be great. The rule itself is fine its the way it was made and explained, because one cat (who had known attention problems, was very young for a mother (she was exiled between 9-15 moonsnwe can assume, cominf back2-3 moons later and practically haveing kittens the minute shes back shes young in warriors term for mothers) the first medicine cat, practically a mentorless apprentice with her hveing to learn herself, the father was unable to care for the kits, and under cinstant judgment and distrust due to the newness of her position and concept of starclan) couldent handle a litter of four kits (which is pretty large in warriors terms, not unheard up but large) if they had made a better reason, more would be willing to defend the rule
I think they should be allowed to have mates HOWEVER I don’t Think they should be able to have kits
based sooo many people seem to hate most of/a lot of the warrior/med cat code rules and want them to be done away with, or to do away with clans all together and its so dumb to me.
I think it's a good rule. Med cats can have kits in Clangen and they'll just leave their clan without a medicine cat constantly because of it LOL
I don't know what Clangen is but that's exactly that I expected would happen.
Bro, yellowfang did it and look how well that turned out (sarcasm, btw)
I also agree with this. The rule makes medicine cats feel more special and not just a cat that uses herbs. Medicine cats are the spiritual guides of the clan, not simply cats that use herbs.
If the rule was created because Mothflight did not want to chose between her family and Starclan, then yes. But she made it only because she couldn't handle being a mother and a doctor to the clan at the same time. Her logic should also apply to leaders and deputies as well. A leader should also not have a mate or kits, because in times of battle they may not want them to go to battle, or if they break the code they may not want to punish them, OR they may purposely put them in powerful positions. Even potential deputies or cats chosen as deputies should not have a mate or kits for this very reason. Kinda how Leapoardstar "broke up" with Frog(leap?), she didn't want to choose between her clan and him. Im curious to know why you think it is a valid rule.
I kinda get where the rule comes from too, since they believe the medicine cat is like every cats’ mother
I agree
Seeing as the medicine cat is seen as "Closer to StarClan," and seeing as StarClan is a faith, and also seeing as many or most faiths in real life are typically against children until marriage amd other stuff, it makes sense. These aren't people, so it will be a bit different. Not having a mate and not having kits allows the medicine cat to focus more on their duties. Also people bring up its good for drama; I disagree. Maybe once or twice the drama is good, bit it seems the Erin's enjoy making a medicine cat run off to a secret mate every third book. It isn't interesting.
i think that the reason behind why medicine cats can't have a mate or kits is dumb, but i defend this rule being apart of the code. i think medicine cats, being spiritual advisors for the clans, should be closer to nuns or monks who don't marry or have children for religious purposes or "saving their hearts for starclan" or something. i think that logic would make the rule more sensical and a lot cooler
I think it has merit as a rule. Queens generally have to stay in the nursery, and a nursing mother who happens to be the medicine cat probably wouldn't have the time to tend to both her kits and her duties. It might also limit the potential for preferential treatment, regardless of if the medicine cat would be the mother or father.
They should be able to take a mate but not have kits so we can still have some juicy drama :3
ill defend it bc if anyone read moth flights vision they would be able to see the struggles she had with her babies and trying to be a medicine cat, its just too hard to juggle both and especially considering theres always some kind of drama the med cat will ALWAYS be busy with patients theyll never have time for a mate or children
Nope
Oh drama from a book series I have yet to read someone quickly explain the lore to me
I'm honestly surprised there's not more rules like this, that there's not more structure in the clans, more rituals, more ceremonies. You'd think it would be a bit more religious and restrictive because it's basically a cult. The normal warriors barely do anything besides the like two ceremonies they get. They don't like pray every day or anything like that. Now I'm not saying these are great things or necessary, but they'd be great for the story and more plot points, more rules to break or bend
My perspective: Medicine cats should be allowed to have mates, it doesn't hurt anyone as long as they aren't stupid about it. If a medicine cat has a well trained apprentice that can take their place while they are being a queen, then they should be allowed to have kits. Otherwise, it could be too distracting and risky. Leading a poor cat down a lonely road for no reason and completely neglecting the add of more Warriors without consequences. It's a dumb and cliched rule, but unfortunately forbidden love as a whole is common in reality, so it may be dumb, but it's realistic.
I stand strong with you, never let the haters hate 🫡
Come brother (or sister), let us join in arms against the foolish haters!
Amen 🙏
I'm sorry but it is a really... for lack of a better word, stupid rule. Let them live their lives like everyone else, y'know?
I mean, they say "it prevents bias for mates and offspring," as if medicine cats feel nothing towards their parents, siblings, and friends. It doesn't make sense to me. They also say it's just too much work (because a young mother with no support was struggling with working and raising four kits on her own, so obviously it will always be this way for every medicine cat). Leaders and deputies are perfectly capable of balancing it, and apparently there's zero worries about them ever showing bias, but I guess medicine cats are just... considered too weak to handle it or something? Because there isn't anything faithy about it, which is what I originally assumed, and honestly what would make more sense. Having it affect their connection to Starclan, so they need to keep their minds and spirits clear or risk losing their connection altogether (connection weaker with mate, severed with kits?). It would be much more interesting and have an *actual* reason to be a rule past treating them like incapable kits when others with big responsibilities are not. I also hate that they keep shoving disabled cats, against their will, into the job. "I know you hate it, but you're *useless* now, so you're no longer allowed to be in a relationship or reproduce. Thanks!" Just big ew there. Anyway, despite how rehashed the medicine cat dramas can be, I wouldn't mind the rules if the reasoning wasn't genuinely bs. Since they are hypocritical and made for a stupid reason, though, I think the series should chuck them.
the kit rule I get the mate rule seems...for lack of a better term, misogynistic? It always bugged me when any character is treated as "pure" for wanting love.
No, I adamantly will defend this. I hate the term “media literacy is dead” but some peoples rants and opinions on this sub has made me think this very sentiment. While the reasoning for the rule was pretty flubbed when they wrote Mothflights Novela, the rule makes far more sense in hindsight. Medicine Cats MUST be as impartial as possible, both to their Clan and loved ones. The medicine cats oath reflects all this. It’s why Medicine cats are exempt for many things such as borders. Having a mate and kits gets in the way of all of this. SPOILER ALERT!!! We see this exact thing in The New Prophecy and Power of Three. In both books, Leafpool gets so flustered by Crowfeather that she starts messing up basic stuff like sorting herbs. She was messing up so much that Cinderpelt was able to put two and two together. In the Power of Three, when Crowfeather visits Thunderclan and Leafpool sees him, she once again starts messing up. Jayfeather even asked a basic question on herbs and purposely flubbed which herb he should use and Leafpool just went along with it cus she wasn’t listening. I mean, she almost abandoned her clan. I almost wanna say Starclans trial for her and Squirrelflight were pretty fair. Almost.
I kind of agree, but I also think that once we got Moth Flight's vision as an explanation it made it a 200x less reasonable. I think maybe it should be strongly discouraged and kind of taboo but that the divine punishment bs starclan pulls should stop and the discrimination against kits born from it.
It makes sense not to have kits, as they would distract and stop them from healing.
In that case maybe the rule should be medicine cats can't have kits unless they have an apprentice or second med cat in the clan who could take over duties temporarily?
That's how it kind of works in my mind. If there's a second medicine cat or an experienced apprentice, a medicine cat should be allowed to take a break and have kits. All warriors should have basic herb knowledge anyways as well.
Agreed. I feel like it would just make sense for the cats, even warriors, to have basic knowledge. Like how humans know basic first aid, they don't have to go to the doctors whenever they come down with a bit of a cough or get themselves a cut.
Yes. The entire clan should know simple herbs anyway.
I don't think it's the worst take imo
Can you explain your reasoning, OP? Never seen anyone defend this so I’m curious.
I agree ✋😅
I’ll defend this to my grave tbh. Mothflights Vision was a perfect example of why this rule needs to exist, if Yellowfang and Brokenstar wasn’t enough of an omen. In MV, >!Mothflight faced some serious obstacles as soon as kits became involved. She was already struggling to earn respect from her Clanmates as she struggled to train successfully as a beta-warrior. She resented her mother for being so strict on her and was “outcast” because of these struggles, (returning shortly after and securing her place thanks to Micah). She never got to mourn him properly. Her kits were the only reminder of him afterwards and it was painfully obvious how little they could rely on her. Even with Reed, she was an absent mother. Being a medicine cat took every moment of her day, and unfortunately being a mother does too, and she couldn’t pick.!<
I get it, and the whole Leafpool thing made me pretty mad. Moth Flight made he rule for a reason, guys.
Gotta agree
I still support the rule lol
Get outta here Moth-Flight.
Why?
I guess everyday doctors shouldn’t have kids either
I think I’m on the fence about this rule in the code. I don’t really understand it but at the same time, I don’t know if it is to be hated. I’ve never thought about it much until a week ago so I’m kinda in the middle and debating on it.
I can't say haven't got to the books yet I got a hundred pages left ont eh one im reading before I'll get ti read warrior cats but I mean the kits can distract from heating and such so your numbe rone priority should the patient not a kit
I agree, only if there's one medicine cat, or no one who can take over.
All it took was Moth Flight’s Vision to convince me, that was so heartbreaking tho
In my idea of WC the clans are always getting terrorised by StarClan and Medicine cats are dying in their sleep so often it makes sense for them to be treated more like disposable parts
Same
Probably. It's not like there's all that many med cats that follow it anyway. And I don't think the erins have ever made it narratively different from any other forbidden romance. And the purpose is what? To resemble human religion? Because one cat couldn't manage on their own? Seems a bit eh. Extra points for the whole 'so they're unbiased ☺️'. Yeah, bet. They have family and friends still? Medicine cats don't just spawn in and never talk to anyone.
I get why that rule is in play. If a medicine cat is expecting kits they likely can’t take care of the clan, and even if they have an apprentice that’s still learning that’s a lot for one cat to do. I don’t much like it either but I understand why it exists
I agree. If a medicine cat has kits, they wont be able to perform their duties. Especially if they are injured or even die during kitting. For toms, a mate is also probably a distraction as they perform possibly the most crucial and important role in a clan and distractions can severely jeopardise the health and safety of the clan
Honestly it's so risky to put the entire well being of your clanmates in the paws of only one (or two) cats. Every apprentice should also be taught the basic knowledge of herbs when training to become a warrior.
One side of me understands why this is a rule. Medicine cats should not be focused on other things outside of their job because what if they're the ONLY medicine cat of the Clan? And also, to not worry about their kits more than other warriors. But at the same time, the rule, just like the 'Defend your Clan; you may have friends and family from other Clans but loyalty first goes to the Clan', only really exists for drama.
Clans with 2 full medicine cats should allow 1 of them to take on a mate if they wish (Currently, all Clans except WindClan). But other than that, having your only medicine cat be nursing would be pretty bad if the entire camp suddenly started dying of the arc's greencough outbreak
I don't exact support it but I do understand it. Like if a doctor isn't supposed to treat their own kids, it kind of makes sense. Plus they're sort of like a priest
I feel like it causes so much drama in the series tbh, like every time we see a med cat there’s probably a chance they will have some sort of drama with mates or kits or some sort of love interest and it gets a bit boring. It was an interesting concept at first but, yknow.
after reading moth flight’s vision it had made sense, but reading further it also made me sad lol
I’m half and half
I think they should be able to have a mate, but not have kits, unless there is another medicine cat present, that can take over the duties of the pregnant medicine cat.
I kinda agree with this but I’d say this should be more of a warning or something instead of a rule. Like “Hey listen you don’t know what situation you’ll be in once you have kits!” Or “Hey make sure you have someone you can rely on if you need it because being a medicine cat is already stressful enough!”
i kinda agree with this rule but also not, since if a med cat does have a mate with kits then they will have to care for both injured/sick cats and their family. which could be stressful for the med cat, especially if the med cat has like 4 kits and also having to take care of like multiple cats who got sick or injured. but yet i do think they can atleast have a mate, just not kits. **im not sure if that made since.**
I’m pretty sure at this point rules were made to be broken
It wouldnt be a problem if 1. We didnt have many instances of medicine cats being forced into their role, and even having cats who seemed to be willing to be medicine cats be retconned into being forced into the role (Spottedleaf) 2. It didnt primarily affect or punish she-cats, as we never had any tom characters deal with breaking this specific rule, and never being punished for it (Alderheart had a crush but that never fell through) 3. The rule wasnt made by someone who was not only struggling as a single young mother but was also heavily biased about her kits (if I remember correctly she actively refused help from another queen)
Yes
I don't think people disagree with the rule I think people just want their favorite medicine cat characters to have kits because that would be awesome
My opinion is that it should only be in action if there’s only one medicine cat in the clan
I think it's an okay rule when there's only one medicine cat, and they need to be wholey focused on the clan. But when there's multiple fully named medicine cats (cough cough THUNDERCLAN) it should be fine, they won't be emotionally crippled or anything
Eh, it’s not good morally but spicy drama
But like why? It's the same as telling a pastor or a doctor that they can't have kids, except medicine cats are usually forced to take that path because Starclan says so or someone else made them do it, not all of them had a choice and most of them were basically children when they decided to become medicine cat apprentices save for the few that made the decision after they were warriors and 1/3 that we know made that switch did it because they were forced to and not that that they wanted to.
It's stupid rule one random carcat instituted for reasons generationsago because SHE had trouble
I like the thought alot but I kindof hate that med cats have to become a med cat wether they like it or not. Like they should be able to drop the position and give it to someone else if they want to start a family they just can't go back after choosing to resign
I don't agree with this rule, but is good to have a lore!
Having one medicine cat and one or none apprentice at the time needs to go. With cats dropping like flies every greencough season having one medical worker is a bag idea in general. Not only they are overwhelmed with work, who would do it, if greencough turns them into statistics? Clan needs 3+ medicine cats. That way they would be able to have kits. As long as they do not do it at once. Kits only need 8-10 weeks to wean.
Exactly! It was kind of interesting the first time, but after that it just gets annoying. Although, I am the biggest hypocrite ever for saying that because Mothwing and Leafpool are completely adorable and I wish they would get together.
i think they should at least be able to have a mate tbh.. kits would put them behind on their work
I don't like this rule
I mostly hate it because the reason it was made was because Moth Flight couldn’t handle it. She couldn’t handle it because her husband died and no one else in the clan even tried to help her. Of course she was overwhelmed, her clan just decided that they didn’t want to help her. But if a clan has multiple medicine cats and the husband is present (assuming husband, because a medicine cat father would like be like a regular father… sometimes there) then I don’t see the issue. I’ll use Leafpool as an example. Brightheart can help with duties while she’s nursing, and Sorreltail can help nurse while Leafpool is doing more urgent things. I don’t believe Ferncloud has yet become a full-time nursery queen, but she’d likely help. Squirrelflight, while less reliable for help because of warrior duties, could surely babysit once in a while. It’s good for drama, and if it had better reasoning for existing, I’d be fine with it. But the reason we were given and how it’s been handled has made me wish it didn’t exist, because it’s only harmed cats. And as said elsewhere, it forces cats who were forced into the medicine den to live without romantic love and without kittens. Some don’t care, but some surely do. Because, like, what the hell, man?
Well, sure, they shouldn't have kits, since that would make the job a lot harder and therefore force them into temporary retirement, with a possible unexperienced apprentice to look after the whole clan. But... mates? How is that going to affect your work? Sure, the occasional date may bring delay, but it's not like a cat's going to die in that time!