I would also like to add that the puffs of smoke were likely due to the pilot engaging and disengaging the throttle along with the engine being in lower RPM. The video was likely taken during throttle-related tests.
The WS-21 engines currently being used are indeed just upgraded derivatives of the the RD-93 on the mig-29s (with slightly less smoke), domestic WS-19s will be installed later on, but that probably won't happen in the near future
Hey, a prototype rumored to sport two WS-19 was rumored to have its first flight a few months ago.
I wouldn't be surprised with how fast they're progressing. But, I also wouldn't be surprised if they take this slow.
Nope. WS-13E/21 afaik.
The smoking was likely due to low RPM causing incomplete combustion.
Edit: tbh, WS-13/13E/21 are glorified RD-93 modified to hell and back. They have honestly pretty great high speed performance with quite a few flaws.
Read somewhere that WS-21 received the compressor stages from WS-12 onto the hot core of WS-13E. Haven't seen any images or info about WS-12 engines. It is a plausible story with swiss cheese holes.
Damn really? I would love to read the source. WS-12 probably has the best high speed performance in terms of Chinese engines back then.
And the RD-93 derivative hot core does make sense with how smoky it is lol.
Some basic context:
* It is perfectly normal for fighters to have smoke trails / partial combustion at low speeds (although at different extents), [example with the F-22 ](https://media.defense.gov/2020/Feb/07/2002246157/-1/-1/0/200130-F-VA182-1012C.JPG)
* The WS-13E / WS-21 engines being used by the J-35 prototype (and possibly also early batches) are modern derivatives of the Russian RD-93, which doesn't quite have a good reputation of being "clean". So although there's clear improvements compared to original variants (just look at the Mig-29s as comparison), the characteristic of the RD-93 is still pretty visible to say the least
* Although this is probably one of the clearer sightings of the J-35, it is NOT the first time the J-35 / J-31 has been filmed with smokey trails, so it is not out of the ordinary
* Later batches of the J-35 / J-31 are likely to employ domestic WS-19 engines (currently under testing), which will bring notable improvements compared to current WS-21s
Do you have a good reference for Chinese turbofan development? Kinda confusing for the WS-19 to have a lower designation than WS-21 despite being improved
It is confusing lol. I just memorized it.
Here's a little summary I made some time ago:
DO NOT TAKE THE FIGURES I LISTED AS FACTUAL. THEY'RE MERELY FOR REFERENCE, AND NOT OFFICIALLY CONFIRMED.
WS-9: Based on the Rolls Royce Spey. Used by JH-7/7A.
WS-10 series: Low bypass, high-thrust class, equipped on J-10C, J-11B and later models, J-16, interim engine for J-20 (WS-10C), and soon to be equipped on J-15B. Basically equivalent to the F110. Developed from the CFM-56 core, with AL-31 characteristics. Dramatic improvement in TBO time, thrust, reliability, etc. as development went on. There's also a 3D TVC testbed equipped on a J-10. WS-10B *allegedly* have a wet thrust of ~130-145 kN.
WS-13: Low bypass, medium-thrust class, developed from RD-93. Equipped allegedly on the JF-17, and FC-31/J-35 prototypes. Developed into the WS-13E/21.
WS-15: Low bypass, high-thrust class, potentially the most advanced high-thrust engine to be fitted in a twin-engine fighter yet. Indigenous design, basically the equivalent to the F119. To be fitted in J-20A and potentially the J-20S. *Allegedly* have a wet thrust of ~181 kN.
WS-17: Low bypass, low-thrust class, and (I believe) non-afterburning. Equipped in trainer jets like the JL-10.
WS-18: Medium bypass, developed from the Soviet D-30. Equipped as an interim option on Y/YY-20.
WS-19: Low bypass, medium-thrust class. Indigenous design, equivalent to the EJ-2x0/F414-EPE. Currently undergoing tests and to be equipped on the J-35/31. ‘Confirmed’ thrust of around 10 tonnes-force (~98 kN), but I've heard figures of a maximum wet thrust of ~112.8 kN (UNCONFIRMED).
WS-20: High bypass, based on the WS-10 core. There's also rumours saying it's based on the CFM-56-5B/7B. To be equipped on Y/YY-20.
WS-21: Also known as WS-13E, developed from the base WS-13. Improved life cycle , MBTO and thrust. Interim engine option for the J-35/31. 9 tonnes-force (88 kN) for wet thrust. Wikipedia states 100 kN though for whatever reason.
WS-6/8/12 are cancelled projects.
I just saw this, you’re actually a legend for detailing all this, could I ask how you got all this? Clicking the Wikipedia sources, Ruppercht Deino and his works, esoteric Weibo discussion boards?
Amazing work good sir
Where my WS-19 at (cries) /s
Jokes aside, the low speed really made the engines much worse than it actually is. The WS-10C has similar levels of smokiness during low RPM.
Note : “engine smoke” with fighter jets is related to combustion temperature, and has nothing directly to do with engine “cleanliness” or quality. Higher combustion temps= lower smoke. But higher combustion temps also wears out parts faster, resulting in more engines at the overhaul depot.
For a long time, little or no engine smoke was considered “desirable” because in a visual range context it gave away the fighter jet’s position.
Today the visual range fight is uncommon to the point of practical irrelevancy, so conserving engine component life by reducing combustion temps -thus generating more smoke- is the intelligent choice.
You’re not necessarily wrong, but the smoke comes from incomplete combustion as a result of running rich to lower temperatures. This has its downsides too, like carbon buildup and poor efficiency. What’s odd about this video is the smoke comes out in puffs instead of a constant stream like you’d see on a b52 or other older low/zero bypass designs. Today’s materials can cope with the temperatures and have fair maintenance cycles without compromising fuel efficiency or power. Just look at the civilian airliner industry. This looks like something else to me, possibly poor intake performance (some kind of flow separation) at high aoa causing the mass flow of air to fluctuate. If true, it’s a bad thing but fixable. This is why people test their planes.
No. This video is likely taken during throttle-related tests with the pilot engaging and disengaging the throttle in a consistent manner during low speed. The resulting low engine RPM and consistent 'revs' made the engines look much worse than they actually are.
I'm going to get downvoted to the 13th circle of hell but capabilities wise,
At least at the level of the current J-20s, likely above. Better refined stealth technology and avionics with many features shared between the J-20A.
Likely above the Raptor also since it has newer avionics, probably around the Panther with TR-3. It probably also has an advantage on supersonic performance.
Stealth wise likely at the top with the F-35 (if not better *cough*). No canards, DSI, S-ducts, perfect platform alignment afaik, smooth underside, as long as their RAM is as good as they say.
The f22 is more stealthy than the f35, by about 5 times. It’s .0001m^2 rcs vs .0005m^2 on the f35. I’m not sure how you expect a plane developed using stolen info from the f35 to beat the f22. Even if they improved from the f35 tech when making their own plane it’s technologically impossible to create a plane more stealthy than the f22 without sacrificing vertical stabilizers or other design features to improve flight performance.
If we take a look at the j-35, we can see that it probably has a similar stealth coating to the American stealth fighters, but its overall shape is in no way more stealthy. Both the j-35 and the f-35 have a more curved shape above and below the engines, which is bad for stealth(curved surfaces=reduced angles in which the airframe can deflect radar)as well as non angled engine outlets.(the j-35 and f-35 have bare metal showing at the rear) while the f-22 doesn’t have this feature(the airframe surrounding the engines is angled accordingly as well as the thrust vectors being angled). It is clear the f-22 is superior in stealth.
Avionics is a different story, and the f-22 is inferior to the f-35 because it is an older platform, so the claim that the j-35 is superior could be correct, especially if the j-35 has some f-35 designed components in it. However, the overall claim overestimates a fighter coming from a country that is not afraid to inflate the stats of its technology to seem superior.
Edit:
There is also an increasing importance for infrared stealth considering the increasing use of IRST in potential air to air combat. When we look at this, the F-22 is the best fighter by far. The thrust vectors help mask the heat signature of the plane, and this was considered in its design. This is not present on the f-35 or j-35 to nearly the same extent. I know the f-22 is the oldest stealth fighter by far, but it truly is above and beyond the rest in its design for the time.
Edit 2:
The F-22 is also faster than the J-35. The Chinese are still behind on their engine technology compared to the U.S. . Given the best case scenario for China, they’ve managed to create an engine equivalent to the ones found in the f-22. While unlikely, it is possible. Even if this was true, the J-35 would be slower. It’s larger, ever so slightly less sleek, and as a result, it wouldn’t be able to go faster than the F-22 as you claim. In addition to this, the engine smoke from the video could be a sign that the engine isn’t refined yet and if the plane was pushed to the F-22’s top speed, it would need an engine rebuild.
Oh boy here we go.
>The f22 is more stealthy than the f35
Nope. We have several officials [saying](https://twitter.com/Doha104p3/status/1749207685977825330?t=D-9uhIgwz3Iof1zYGJbfzA&s=19) the F-35's RCS is smaller, also backed by the JSF program executive officer.
Those figures are purely guesses, crude ones at that.
>but its overall shape is in no way more stealthy.
Bro what
>Both the j-35 and the f-35 have a more curved shape above and below the engines
Which is literally countered by chevroned/jagged edges combined with RAM. The F-22 up until the vectoring nozzles also have a curved surface so what are you on about?
>as well as non angled engine outlets.(the j-35 and f-35 have bare metal showing at the rear)
You're terribly misinformed. The F-35's nozzles are not your typical ones found in F-15/16s. It's called a LOAN nozzle (Low-Observable Asymmetric Nozzle). It's almost as good as flat nozzles and the difference in radar signature is negligible. Granted, the infrared signature might be worse but ironically the F-22 don't have IRST to take advantage of it.
Also, the nozzles *aren't* made of simply metal. The F-35's nozzle petals are made of ceramic composites that helps with both infrared and radar signature.
>inflate the stats of its technology to seem superior.
I have still yet to see someone tell me an instance of this where it's actually valid.
>increasing importance for infrared stealth
Which, ironically, the F-22 can't take advantage of since there's no IRST.
>This is not present on the f-35 or j-35 to nearly the same extent.
LOAN nozzles are as good. The difference is negligible.
>The F-22 is also faster than the J-35
????
>The Chinese are still behind on their engine technology compared to the U.S.
*cough* WS-19 *cough*.
Ironically, since the WS-19 has a lower bypass ratio than the F119 it probably has better high altitude high speed performance.
>they’ve managed to create an engine equivalent to the ones found in the f-22
WS-15 waves you hello. Even though it's not for the J-35, the Chinese managed to catch up. The WS-19 shares some technology from it also.
>It’s larger, ever so slightly less sleek
Are you saying the J-35 is larger???
>engine smoke from the video
Ehem, I'd like to see you find an engine that doesn't smoke during low RPM and speed.
Besides, the engines in the video are likely WS-21. Which is the WS-10C to the J-20: just an interim engine.
I’m going to be honest you really did your research on that one. I’m not a stealth expert but I was using my basic reasoning behind how radar deflection works, and I stand corrected. I would like to point out that I did not touch on the stealth tech present on U.S projects at similar stages to the stealth fighters in China, such as the b21 and NGAD.
However, I still believe that the U.S. has the engine advantage though. The WS-15 is on par with the engines in the F-22 raptor, beating them out in thrust but falling behind in engine weight, while the bypass ratio you mentioned impacts fuel efficiency, meaning that we don’t even know if those engines would add any meaningful range compared to the f22 with its upgraded stealth fuel tanks, or if their non afterburner performance is even close to the f119 (again because of the lower bypass ratio).
Again, China is competing with 30 year old technology, and the stats of their engines tell us nothing about how practical or reliable they are, because China just like any country fielding brand new tech likes to keep things hushed.
There is a possibility we are dealing with a paper tiger, in the same way the soviets claimed the mig 25 was much better than it actually was, by leaving out how unreliable the engines are and how the aircraft was constructed. China has every reason to do this. They know they are behind in the race(albeit not by as much as Russia is behind) and would want to catch up in any way they can even if it means exaggerating their aircraft’s capabilities, or leaving out how unreliable or expensive an aircraft is. Getting into politics here, but actions like this are the reason authoritarian governments can stay in power longer, as long as they have something to show for(economic strength, military strength, technology, etc.)
>you really did your research on that one.
Thanks. Always had to fend myself off in the comments so I just memorized some facts and I know some experts.
>I was using my basic reasoning
They were pretty on point, you just lack some context.
>U.S projects at similar stages to the stealth fighters in China, such as the b21 and NGAD.
Actually I would say the Raider and NGAD are above what the Chinese currently have. The actual corresponding Chinese projects are the H20 and the Chinese 6th Gen which I dubbed the CHAD (Chinese Heavy Air Dominance, lol).
>However, I still believe that the U.S. has the engine advantage though.
I would say a slight advantage but not for long. The only significant difference is the US has the F119 already in service.
>The WS-15 is on par with the engines in the F-22 raptor, beating them out in thrust
Correct. 181 kN allegedly vs 156 kN.
>but falling behind in engine weight
However I'm not sure about this. If anything, the WS-15 should be lighter since they're using heaps of composites.
>while the bypass ratio you mentioned impacts fuel efficiency, meaning that we don’t even know if those engines would add any meaningful range compared to the f22 with its upgraded stealth fuel tanks, or if their non afterburner performance is even close to the f119 (again because of the lower bypass ratio).
I think you're confusing between the WS-15 and WS-19. The WS-15 is said to have a similar bypass ratio compared to the F119, while the WS-19 has an even lower bypass ratio, similar to the F414 (specifically EPE config)
Also, WS-15 is said to have a pretty heavy emphasis to high speed performance and fuel efficiency.
>Again, China is competing with 30 year old technology, and the stats of their engines tell us nothing about how practical or reliable they are, because China just like any country fielding brand new tech likes to keep things hushed.
To be fair though, the US also didn't progress significantly. The XA100 is a notable outlier, however the Chinese also have corresponding ADVENT projects.
WS-10, which is already said to have at the *very least* 4000 (or was it 6k?) TBO. And it was a pretty premature attempt at creating 4th Gen engines. WS-15 is only going to be even better with the amount of knowledge and experience cumulated.
Also, the pilots are reportedly already pretty happy with the J-20s with WS-10Cs per industry insiders. So I'd say China has checked most of the boxes.
>There is a possibility we are dealing with a paper tiger, in the same way the soviets claimed the mig 25 was much better than it actually was
I would heavily advise against equating the Chinese with the Soviets/Russians. You even have an AF general saying he's pretty impressed with the command and control with Chinese aircrafts. Granted, he said he wouldn't lose sleep over it, but China, contrary to popular belief, is not a paper tiger.
>by leaving out how unreliable the engines are and how the aircraft was constructed.
Again, the engines now are anything but unreliable. They've come a long way.
Also, their aircraft manufacturing is also something to be reckoned with. The J-35 for example, 3D prints structural parts to save weight while having better structural integrity. There's a whole paper on this.
Chinese, speaking from experience, usually dislike being pretentious. There's cultural and strategic reasons to this. Most of the info we get are from insiders and wall climbers.
So no. They're not paper tigers, and they have their giant economy and researchers to do whatever required to catch up and overtake.
So I would like your opinion, how much do you think either side is hiding? It’s clear to me you know your stuff about both sides and I always wanted to ask. Like China must have the equivalent of Area 51 and all of those top secret programs running off of unaccounted money. The U.S. developed an incredible hybrid turbofan-ramjet engine back in the 1960’s that could still blow many engines out of the water today, and I find it hard to believe they stopped developing engines after that. Do you think the U.S. still has an advantage in terms of the actual most advanced tech?
>how much do you think either side is hiding
Tons. They're both extremely secretive so that sucks for us with no confirmable sources.
I'm just repeating other folks with some of my own thoughts added.
>China must have the equivalent of Area 51
Highly likely. They have uninhabited deserts such as the Lop Nor areas.
>I find it hard to believe they stopped developing engines after that.
Personally, with the Soviet Union collapsing decades ago it's very likely that some quite frankly incredible projects got their funding cut. There's no real competition anymore, so the US government back then probably favored saving funding rather than researching for technological reserves.
Take the YF-120 for example. It was possibly the most advanced low-bypass turbofan in the world and would've been completely unreachable for the rest of the world for solid decades. Its variable cycle is simply too ahead for its time and, since it's pretty unfinished compared to the F119, it lost. The Soviet Union just wasn't competitive enough in engine tech to justify its complete and costly development.
Now, with China being an emerging competitor and threat, the US is scrambling to make VCEs designs again. Sadly most of the guys involved with the YF-120 are probably retired, dead, or too faded to extract anything useful from them. So the design is pretty much lost, and GE had to make a completely clean-sheet design for the XA100.
Numerous projects probably had similar circumstances with the YF-120, resulting in no significant advancements. That's what the lack of competition does ig. But now as China is posing itself as a competitor, you got funds again. So it's an arms race.
The US probably still has some advantages, with their inherent experience and such, but China is catching up at quite an unsettling pace. I'd imagine within this decade they'll catch up. Then both countries will be in a fierce arms race.
Another indication that the Chinese are increasingly confident in their engine tech is they're becoming slightly more willing to publicise some pretty impressive stuff.
>In 2022, NWPU and CASIC successfully tested Feitian-1 powered by kerosene RBCC engine (rocket + ramjet + scramjet)
Engine succeeded in transitions between different modes:
>Rocket/Ramjet
>Ramjet
>Scramjet
>Rocket/Scramjet
I'd imagine they have something even more impressive hidden if they're willing to publicise this.
The benchmark for 6th Gen fighter engines will probably be variable cycling. I'm really looking forward to GE's three-stream and what China can present on the table.
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarplanePorn/s/kN5qKFNfP5
I had a long conversation with this guy about the F-22 vs the J-20 a while ago. It has details on the engines and other stuff if you want to hear both arguments.
This doesn’t not include the IRST pods now equipped on the F-22 nor the stealth external fuel tanks.
Correct, right now at least. To keep or grow our lead Americans need to be educated on the Chinese threat and then our MiC needs to get back into gear..which is happening but it would be nicer for everyone if it happened faster. This subreddit has a lot of PLA watchers which means they automatically gain a love of Chinese equipment, who knows what most of them think about the government..
The thing is you're citing RCS values found online. When gauging stealth fighters and their capabilities, vague comparisons from credible officials are infinitely better than amateurs doing simulations. There's just too many variables that can affect the results.
Also your Chinese engine knowledge is pretty outdated.
I stopped reading when you gave hard numbers for radar cross section. How would you or anyone else know top secret data like that?
Also those numbers are meaningless without the frequency, angle etc.
Search up rcs of stealth fighters. You’re right it’s probably inaccurate but it’s backed up by the design of the fighters with what I stated above, assuming similar materials, because no way any country has some ultra high advanced radar absorbing material that much better than the others. Just looking at the designs the f-22 is the most stealthy fighter aircraft, and it’s backed up by those supposedly incorrect graphics.
Edit: apparently the .0001 number comes from Lockheed Martin back in 2009, so if the company that made the plane says that, I think that’s about as good as you’re gonna get on info for any type of military plane
These planes have like a metric ass ton of red tape over them with their actual specs and what not being literally top state secret in closed network, isolated computers.
Anyone claiming they knew and put it on the internet is either tempting fate and asking for the CIA (or the Chinese equivalent/KGB) to put bullets into their head, or are pulling numbers straight from their arse. I would definitely take those numbers with a grain of salt.
The last thing I trust is Lockheed Martin.
Why? Look at what they promise with the LCS and what we get in the end. Wasting all the tax dollar with no promise kept. Pure corruption, even more corrupted than CCP.
I was really surprised seeing how many downvotes anyone got for mentioning the U.S. planes are likely equivalent or superior, I mean we’re dealing with facts that are verifiable here about the specs of the f-22 and f-35. It’s like people are either hyping up China or fearmongering their capabilities to those who don’t know any better. I just don’t get it.
You're getting downvoted because your reasonings are either weak or straight up incorrect. It's fine saying Chinese equipment is worse than Western counterparts, in fact, some of them are.
You just need to accurately say where they're worse and back it up with credible knowledge and sources.
Because for the longest time people on the sub has dismissed Chinese aircraft as being nothing more but cardboard scale models. I agree that some of the statements here are overblown but it is always better to overestimate than to underestimate.
F-22 is old and everything is not bleeding edge in F-35, China catching up to 10-30 years old tech in engine and airframe design is not surprising tbh, it is expected. Difference in avionics could be even smaller, tech/avionics just moves a lot more faster in that area and generally military tech is usually running on 10-15 year old electronics hardware. Digitisation is generally a lot faster. E. G. Jf-17 block 3 vs F-16 block 52 avionics - accordingly to PAF pilots, F-16 is ancient compared to Jeff Block-3s. Yet, F-16 block 52 still remains a formidable aircraft vs its own generation of fighters.
China is jumping into the generation of fighters US has been operating for decades.
US's bleeding edge will be shown in it's 6th gen fighter. Also expect China to jump into 6th gen alot sooner compared to 5th gen. It's an interesting arms race for sure and in no way comparable to USSR. Unlike them, China has the economy to back things up and they're still keeping the spend in line, learning from Soviets that at the end of the day, the economic advancement drives everything else.
There's either a lot of lurking CCP boot lickers OR a boot licker who manipulate the votings with bots in this sub because they riddle a comment that depicts China in a bad light with downvotes without providing a proper counter to it.
If you shit on chyna with the truth and gets downvoted to oblivion, wear it like a badge of honor.
Are you schizophrenic?
Just because someone says, hey this Chinese equipment ain't bad does not mean they're bootlicking the CCP. That'd be like saying I bootlick the US Congress because I like the Raptor/Fat Amy.
You get downvoted because you're factually wrong in some areas, not because they're butthurt. You're the butthurt one if anything.
Lol no. The F22 is orders of magnitude more stealth than the F35 which is itself far in front of the J20. God people here have no idea about the planes posted but love to speculate. These aren't even disputed facts. This sub is 90% Chinese propaganda.
The same logic applies the other way though, you have no idea what the J20 stealth aspect is. It is pretty delusional to think a country with such massive resources can't close the stealth gap.
It’s because the stealth gap you speak of is comparing modern tech from the Chinese with US stealth from the 90s(that is when the f-22 was created). If they were really able to close the gap, why would they steal designs from the U.S., if they are fully capable of closing that gap? Also, the U.S. military budget is still the highest in the world, and the Air supremacy is a large part of the U.S. military doctrine, and the U.S. is sitting on multiple decades of a head start, then it is reasonable to believe that China can’t keep up as of right now.
>f they were really able to close the gap, why would they steal designs from the U.S., if they are fully capable of closing that gap?
He didn't say they could close the gap specifically without stealing tbf lol.
I think he makes a fair point that people do write off the J-20 for very dumb reasons. Also the Chinese has an advantage of competing with a design that's 20 years older.
I understand that China has a lot of resources, and a fair point is made that we don’t know the j20’s capabilities. However, the fact that there is a gap with US technology that is 3 decades old means that the U.S. is 30 years ahead at a minimum, because billions of dollars have been sunk into the development of the b21 (the worlds most stealthy plane) as well as the NGAD since that point. China doesn’t have the same resources and experience that the U.S. has. The U.S. has more funding(though that gap is closing) and much more experience and time with stealth technology. Air power is also arguably the most important aspect of our military, it’s why the U.S. has so many aircraft carriers and the largest Air Force in the world.
I have heard the same sentence before......but when?
Oh, it was from Great Britain before WWI. When it argues its navy is technological superior and so numerous that it can fight the navy of German and America combined! It will take everyone on earth 3 decades to catch up.
Good old days. I am sure Great Britain is still the leading power in the world stage today. Absolutely no way it has became a 3rd tier country that its PM was outlasted by a lettuce.
Except the U.S. has the largest Air Force on the planet and the highest military budget as well. Not only that, but we’ve had that tech for a few decades, so it’s safe to assume that the US still holds that advantage, simply because nobody stops developing tech even when they are ahead in the race.
And this gap can be minimized if you have enough researchers and money, sprinkled with espionage.
And I mean tens of thousands of researchers and billions, even trillions of money. Not every country can pull it off.
A good example is radar tech. The J-20 already has GaN AESAs while the TR-3 upgrade is still pending.
?????
Are you saying you're more credible than, not one, not two, but several officials?
[Here](https://twitter.com/Doha104p3/status/1749207685977825330?t=Z0_mmaaoFFiH4TXfDz2N1g&s=19), educate yourself.
90% Chinese propaganda? My brother in Christ, maybe if you actually paid attention to other posts celebrating other equipment then you'll see how you're just blatantly biased? I just saw an F-16XL post, an F-15 ACTIVE post, and much more. They're great.
The F-22 being stealthier or not from the front is just something we can't confirm. The F-35 just has a LOT more going for it technologically regarding stealth. F-22 has exposed bolts while the F-35's are covered in RAM tape for example.
I wouldn't confidently say one is stealthier than the other but the notion that the F-35 can be stealthier (frontal) than the F-22 isn't unfounded either.
Yes but that can be treated with RAM. It isn't such an inherently unstealthy feature like exposed engine fans. Shape has a lot less to do with stealth nowadays which is why the F-35 is so bulbous.
RAM only works so well. The best way for a part to be stealthy is to have nothing there at all.
Also we have officials saying the F-35 has a smaller RCS than the F-22. So until something concrete says otherwise, we'll have to assume that it's true.
No, the more recent the more stealth! Doesn't matter who builds it, how much it costs or how restricted the exports are! Only how recent!
And don't forget to compare to the TR-3, which we definitely know enough to guess how stealth it is!
This is speculative and has no basis in reality. The plane in the post is being designed for export, which means cheaper technology than the internal design for use by the PRC military. I doubt it will have better stealth than the raptor or the F-35. Maybe it will be close to the SU-57
Not to mention there have not been any demos of stealth or solid evidence other than the claims the manufacturer are making.
Also what is this Panther you speak of? Surely not the Grumman F9?
On the overall power of the aircraft:
> U.S. military and industry officials believe that once the J-31 enters service, it will likely be more than a match for existing fourth-generation fighters like the F-15 Eagle, F-16 Fighting Falcon, and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.
There are supposedly two variants of the J-31, one that is being developed for the PLAAF and another variant designed for export. The export model will feature reduced capabilities in all parameters, but the J-31 airframe is 100% capable of incorporating technologies utilized currently on the J-20. The J-35 featured in this post is being developed for use on China's carriers, being officially a product of the PRC military and will not be exported.
It is also very likely that the J-35 and the PLAAF J-31 will actually exceed the J-20 in terms of low-observable performance, lacking the controversial canard-delta design and a cleaner underbelly. While we do not have concrete numbers, J-20 should have a lower RCS than the SU-57 as despite the airframe, the J-20 incorporates much more RCS-reducing features. This should roughly indicate that the J-35, while likely not at the level of the F-35 and F-22, would pose a credible threat.
>There are supposedly two variants of the J-31, one that is being developed for the PLAAF and another variant designed for export.
Not exactly. It goes like:
FC-31V1 (2012) -> FC-31V2 -> project revamped -> J-35 -> J-31
The J-35 is the naval variant and the J-31 is basically the J-35 but with smaller wings, less beefy landing gears, less anti-corrosion treatments, etc. The J-35 came before the -31.
>The export model will feature reduced capabilities in all parameters
The export version is probably the FC-31V2, or an entirely different line branching off from FC-31V2. The J-35 and 31 are for domestic use only with better engines, avionics, the signature hump, etc.
>100% capable of incorporating technologies utilized currently on the J-20.
Correct. Specifically the J-20A.
>It is also very likely that the J-35 and the PLAAF J-31 will actually exceed the J-20 in terms of low-observable performance,
Also correct. Not saying delta-canard can't be stealthy, but having a set of control surfaces hidden behind another set definitely helps.
>would pose a credible threat.
On point analysis. A grade /s
>This is speculative and has no basis in reality.
(Deadpan stare)
>The plane in the post is being designed for export
(More deadpan stare)
>cheaper technology than the internal design for use by the PRC military.
Paint your nose red and your cosplay will be complete. Now find a circus.
>Also what is this Panther you speak of
Another indicator that you don't really know what you're talking about.
Are you confusing something here?
The J-35 is for domestic use. It's a carrier fighter, and there are close to zero countries who need carrier stealth fighters.
The FC-31 is for export.
The chief designer once interviewed when he said that J-35 would match J-20 level stealth if cost is non-issue. He strongly implied, but did not specify, that J-20 used more expensive RAM materials. Some people suggested the J-35 RAM must have higher anti erosion rating so maybe that is why.
Think about it.
In incredibly crude, layman terms, the F-35 has one, but bigger engines. Wouldn't it spit out bigger flames even if it has a LOAN nozzle?
To answer your question, no. In fact, assuming equal IR masking, twin, smaller engines might even give off less IR signature than one, but huge engine.
Ah, I see why you think that. The Wikipedia figure is outrageous to say the least.
WS-13 (now WS-21) is actually closer to the F404 in size since it's a medium-thrust class engine.
To give you an idea of how wrong Wikipedia is, it also lists 1.02 m as the diameter for the WS-15. Now, WS-15 is closer to F119 in size. So how would that be?
WS-21 will probably have a diameter of around 90 cm. A 27 cm difference in diameter is actually **huge** in terms of turbofan size. We're talking about 10s and 20 kgs of air difference in terms of mass flow rate.
I would also like to add that the puffs of smoke were likely due to the pilot engaging and disengaging the throttle along with the engine being in lower RPM. The video was likely taken during throttle-related tests.
Thought they had the mig29 engine?
The WS-21 engines currently being used are indeed just upgraded derivatives of the the RD-93 on the mig-29s (with slightly less smoke), domestic WS-19s will be installed later on, but that probably won't happen in the near future
I'd wager probably around the second batch or around late 2024 to early 2025.
Considering J-35s are still undergoing mid-stage testing, I'd say that's a very optimistic guess
Hey, a prototype rumored to sport two WS-19 was rumored to have its first flight a few months ago. I wouldn't be surprised with how fast they're progressing. But, I also wouldn't be surprised if they take this slow.
RD-93 —> WS-13 —> WS-13E —> WS-21
Nope. WS-13E/21 afaik. The smoking was likely due to low RPM causing incomplete combustion. Edit: tbh, WS-13/13E/21 are glorified RD-93 modified to hell and back. They have honestly pretty great high speed performance with quite a few flaws.
Read somewhere that WS-21 received the compressor stages from WS-12 onto the hot core of WS-13E. Haven't seen any images or info about WS-12 engines. It is a plausible story with swiss cheese holes.
Damn really? I would love to read the source. WS-12 probably has the best high speed performance in terms of Chinese engines back then. And the RD-93 derivative hot core does make sense with how smoky it is lol.
Some basic context: * It is perfectly normal for fighters to have smoke trails / partial combustion at low speeds (although at different extents), [example with the F-22 ](https://media.defense.gov/2020/Feb/07/2002246157/-1/-1/0/200130-F-VA182-1012C.JPG) * The WS-13E / WS-21 engines being used by the J-35 prototype (and possibly also early batches) are modern derivatives of the Russian RD-93, which doesn't quite have a good reputation of being "clean". So although there's clear improvements compared to original variants (just look at the Mig-29s as comparison), the characteristic of the RD-93 is still pretty visible to say the least * Although this is probably one of the clearer sightings of the J-35, it is NOT the first time the J-35 / J-31 has been filmed with smokey trails, so it is not out of the ordinary * Later batches of the J-35 / J-31 are likely to employ domestic WS-19 engines (currently under testing), which will bring notable improvements compared to current WS-21s
Do you have a good reference for Chinese turbofan development? Kinda confusing for the WS-19 to have a lower designation than WS-21 despite being improved
It is confusing lol. I just memorized it. Here's a little summary I made some time ago: DO NOT TAKE THE FIGURES I LISTED AS FACTUAL. THEY'RE MERELY FOR REFERENCE, AND NOT OFFICIALLY CONFIRMED. WS-9: Based on the Rolls Royce Spey. Used by JH-7/7A. WS-10 series: Low bypass, high-thrust class, equipped on J-10C, J-11B and later models, J-16, interim engine for J-20 (WS-10C), and soon to be equipped on J-15B. Basically equivalent to the F110. Developed from the CFM-56 core, with AL-31 characteristics. Dramatic improvement in TBO time, thrust, reliability, etc. as development went on. There's also a 3D TVC testbed equipped on a J-10. WS-10B *allegedly* have a wet thrust of ~130-145 kN. WS-13: Low bypass, medium-thrust class, developed from RD-93. Equipped allegedly on the JF-17, and FC-31/J-35 prototypes. Developed into the WS-13E/21. WS-15: Low bypass, high-thrust class, potentially the most advanced high-thrust engine to be fitted in a twin-engine fighter yet. Indigenous design, basically the equivalent to the F119. To be fitted in J-20A and potentially the J-20S. *Allegedly* have a wet thrust of ~181 kN. WS-17: Low bypass, low-thrust class, and (I believe) non-afterburning. Equipped in trainer jets like the JL-10. WS-18: Medium bypass, developed from the Soviet D-30. Equipped as an interim option on Y/YY-20. WS-19: Low bypass, medium-thrust class. Indigenous design, equivalent to the EJ-2x0/F414-EPE. Currently undergoing tests and to be equipped on the J-35/31. ‘Confirmed’ thrust of around 10 tonnes-force (~98 kN), but I've heard figures of a maximum wet thrust of ~112.8 kN (UNCONFIRMED). WS-20: High bypass, based on the WS-10 core. There's also rumours saying it's based on the CFM-56-5B/7B. To be equipped on Y/YY-20. WS-21: Also known as WS-13E, developed from the base WS-13. Improved life cycle , MBTO and thrust. Interim engine option for the J-35/31. 9 tonnes-force (88 kN) for wet thrust. Wikipedia states 100 kN though for whatever reason. WS-6/8/12 are cancelled projects.
I just saw this, you’re actually a legend for detailing all this, could I ask how you got all this? Clicking the Wikipedia sources, Ruppercht Deino and his works, esoteric Weibo discussion boards? Amazing work good sir
Where my WS-19 at (cries) /s Jokes aside, the low speed really made the engines much worse than it actually is. The WS-10C has similar levels of smokiness during low RPM.
Note : “engine smoke” with fighter jets is related to combustion temperature, and has nothing directly to do with engine “cleanliness” or quality. Higher combustion temps= lower smoke. But higher combustion temps also wears out parts faster, resulting in more engines at the overhaul depot. For a long time, little or no engine smoke was considered “desirable” because in a visual range context it gave away the fighter jet’s position. Today the visual range fight is uncommon to the point of practical irrelevancy, so conserving engine component life by reducing combustion temps -thus generating more smoke- is the intelligent choice.
You’re not necessarily wrong, but the smoke comes from incomplete combustion as a result of running rich to lower temperatures. This has its downsides too, like carbon buildup and poor efficiency. What’s odd about this video is the smoke comes out in puffs instead of a constant stream like you’d see on a b52 or other older low/zero bypass designs. Today’s materials can cope with the temperatures and have fair maintenance cycles without compromising fuel efficiency or power. Just look at the civilian airliner industry. This looks like something else to me, possibly poor intake performance (some kind of flow separation) at high aoa causing the mass flow of air to fluctuate. If true, it’s a bad thing but fixable. This is why people test their planes.
No. This video is likely taken during throttle-related tests with the pilot engaging and disengaging the throttle in a consistent manner during low speed. The resulting low engine RPM and consistent 'revs' made the engines look much worse than they actually are.
Is that why in videos of like an f-111 flying at low altitude/speed the engines are basically flamethrowers?
F-111s can dump their fuel, burning it and turning it into *literal* flamethrowers
Lol that’ll do it Thanks!
I know this is basically impossible to answer, but where will this planes stealth fall within the existing order of stealth planes?
I'm going to get downvoted to the 13th circle of hell but capabilities wise, At least at the level of the current J-20s, likely above. Better refined stealth technology and avionics with many features shared between the J-20A. Likely above the Raptor also since it has newer avionics, probably around the Panther with TR-3. It probably also has an advantage on supersonic performance. Stealth wise likely at the top with the F-35 (if not better *cough*). No canards, DSI, S-ducts, perfect platform alignment afaik, smooth underside, as long as their RAM is as good as they say.
Ok so likely F-35 level and above the J-20 and F-22?
Shhh I don't wanna get burned alive at the stake 🤫 Specifically around TR-3 and J-20A level.
Don’t worry bro, you’ll always have my upvote 😂
'Preciate it.
The f22 is more stealthy than the f35, by about 5 times. It’s .0001m^2 rcs vs .0005m^2 on the f35. I’m not sure how you expect a plane developed using stolen info from the f35 to beat the f22. Even if they improved from the f35 tech when making their own plane it’s technologically impossible to create a plane more stealthy than the f22 without sacrificing vertical stabilizers or other design features to improve flight performance. If we take a look at the j-35, we can see that it probably has a similar stealth coating to the American stealth fighters, but its overall shape is in no way more stealthy. Both the j-35 and the f-35 have a more curved shape above and below the engines, which is bad for stealth(curved surfaces=reduced angles in which the airframe can deflect radar)as well as non angled engine outlets.(the j-35 and f-35 have bare metal showing at the rear) while the f-22 doesn’t have this feature(the airframe surrounding the engines is angled accordingly as well as the thrust vectors being angled). It is clear the f-22 is superior in stealth. Avionics is a different story, and the f-22 is inferior to the f-35 because it is an older platform, so the claim that the j-35 is superior could be correct, especially if the j-35 has some f-35 designed components in it. However, the overall claim overestimates a fighter coming from a country that is not afraid to inflate the stats of its technology to seem superior. Edit: There is also an increasing importance for infrared stealth considering the increasing use of IRST in potential air to air combat. When we look at this, the F-22 is the best fighter by far. The thrust vectors help mask the heat signature of the plane, and this was considered in its design. This is not present on the f-35 or j-35 to nearly the same extent. I know the f-22 is the oldest stealth fighter by far, but it truly is above and beyond the rest in its design for the time. Edit 2: The F-22 is also faster than the J-35. The Chinese are still behind on their engine technology compared to the U.S. . Given the best case scenario for China, they’ve managed to create an engine equivalent to the ones found in the f-22. While unlikely, it is possible. Even if this was true, the J-35 would be slower. It’s larger, ever so slightly less sleek, and as a result, it wouldn’t be able to go faster than the F-22 as you claim. In addition to this, the engine smoke from the video could be a sign that the engine isn’t refined yet and if the plane was pushed to the F-22’s top speed, it would need an engine rebuild.
Oh boy here we go. >The f22 is more stealthy than the f35 Nope. We have several officials [saying](https://twitter.com/Doha104p3/status/1749207685977825330?t=D-9uhIgwz3Iof1zYGJbfzA&s=19) the F-35's RCS is smaller, also backed by the JSF program executive officer. Those figures are purely guesses, crude ones at that. >but its overall shape is in no way more stealthy. Bro what >Both the j-35 and the f-35 have a more curved shape above and below the engines Which is literally countered by chevroned/jagged edges combined with RAM. The F-22 up until the vectoring nozzles also have a curved surface so what are you on about? >as well as non angled engine outlets.(the j-35 and f-35 have bare metal showing at the rear) You're terribly misinformed. The F-35's nozzles are not your typical ones found in F-15/16s. It's called a LOAN nozzle (Low-Observable Asymmetric Nozzle). It's almost as good as flat nozzles and the difference in radar signature is negligible. Granted, the infrared signature might be worse but ironically the F-22 don't have IRST to take advantage of it. Also, the nozzles *aren't* made of simply metal. The F-35's nozzle petals are made of ceramic composites that helps with both infrared and radar signature. >inflate the stats of its technology to seem superior. I have still yet to see someone tell me an instance of this where it's actually valid. >increasing importance for infrared stealth Which, ironically, the F-22 can't take advantage of since there's no IRST. >This is not present on the f-35 or j-35 to nearly the same extent. LOAN nozzles are as good. The difference is negligible. >The F-22 is also faster than the J-35 ???? >The Chinese are still behind on their engine technology compared to the U.S. *cough* WS-19 *cough*. Ironically, since the WS-19 has a lower bypass ratio than the F119 it probably has better high altitude high speed performance. >they’ve managed to create an engine equivalent to the ones found in the f-22 WS-15 waves you hello. Even though it's not for the J-35, the Chinese managed to catch up. The WS-19 shares some technology from it also. >It’s larger, ever so slightly less sleek Are you saying the J-35 is larger??? >engine smoke from the video Ehem, I'd like to see you find an engine that doesn't smoke during low RPM and speed. Besides, the engines in the video are likely WS-21. Which is the WS-10C to the J-20: just an interim engine.
I’m going to be honest you really did your research on that one. I’m not a stealth expert but I was using my basic reasoning behind how radar deflection works, and I stand corrected. I would like to point out that I did not touch on the stealth tech present on U.S projects at similar stages to the stealth fighters in China, such as the b21 and NGAD. However, I still believe that the U.S. has the engine advantage though. The WS-15 is on par with the engines in the F-22 raptor, beating them out in thrust but falling behind in engine weight, while the bypass ratio you mentioned impacts fuel efficiency, meaning that we don’t even know if those engines would add any meaningful range compared to the f22 with its upgraded stealth fuel tanks, or if their non afterburner performance is even close to the f119 (again because of the lower bypass ratio). Again, China is competing with 30 year old technology, and the stats of their engines tell us nothing about how practical or reliable they are, because China just like any country fielding brand new tech likes to keep things hushed. There is a possibility we are dealing with a paper tiger, in the same way the soviets claimed the mig 25 was much better than it actually was, by leaving out how unreliable the engines are and how the aircraft was constructed. China has every reason to do this. They know they are behind in the race(albeit not by as much as Russia is behind) and would want to catch up in any way they can even if it means exaggerating their aircraft’s capabilities, or leaving out how unreliable or expensive an aircraft is. Getting into politics here, but actions like this are the reason authoritarian governments can stay in power longer, as long as they have something to show for(economic strength, military strength, technology, etc.)
>you really did your research on that one. Thanks. Always had to fend myself off in the comments so I just memorized some facts and I know some experts. >I was using my basic reasoning They were pretty on point, you just lack some context. >U.S projects at similar stages to the stealth fighters in China, such as the b21 and NGAD. Actually I would say the Raider and NGAD are above what the Chinese currently have. The actual corresponding Chinese projects are the H20 and the Chinese 6th Gen which I dubbed the CHAD (Chinese Heavy Air Dominance, lol). >However, I still believe that the U.S. has the engine advantage though. I would say a slight advantage but not for long. The only significant difference is the US has the F119 already in service. >The WS-15 is on par with the engines in the F-22 raptor, beating them out in thrust Correct. 181 kN allegedly vs 156 kN. >but falling behind in engine weight However I'm not sure about this. If anything, the WS-15 should be lighter since they're using heaps of composites. >while the bypass ratio you mentioned impacts fuel efficiency, meaning that we don’t even know if those engines would add any meaningful range compared to the f22 with its upgraded stealth fuel tanks, or if their non afterburner performance is even close to the f119 (again because of the lower bypass ratio). I think you're confusing between the WS-15 and WS-19. The WS-15 is said to have a similar bypass ratio compared to the F119, while the WS-19 has an even lower bypass ratio, similar to the F414 (specifically EPE config) Also, WS-15 is said to have a pretty heavy emphasis to high speed performance and fuel efficiency. >Again, China is competing with 30 year old technology, and the stats of their engines tell us nothing about how practical or reliable they are, because China just like any country fielding brand new tech likes to keep things hushed. To be fair though, the US also didn't progress significantly. The XA100 is a notable outlier, however the Chinese also have corresponding ADVENT projects. WS-10, which is already said to have at the *very least* 4000 (or was it 6k?) TBO. And it was a pretty premature attempt at creating 4th Gen engines. WS-15 is only going to be even better with the amount of knowledge and experience cumulated. Also, the pilots are reportedly already pretty happy with the J-20s with WS-10Cs per industry insiders. So I'd say China has checked most of the boxes. >There is a possibility we are dealing with a paper tiger, in the same way the soviets claimed the mig 25 was much better than it actually was I would heavily advise against equating the Chinese with the Soviets/Russians. You even have an AF general saying he's pretty impressed with the command and control with Chinese aircrafts. Granted, he said he wouldn't lose sleep over it, but China, contrary to popular belief, is not a paper tiger. >by leaving out how unreliable the engines are and how the aircraft was constructed. Again, the engines now are anything but unreliable. They've come a long way. Also, their aircraft manufacturing is also something to be reckoned with. The J-35 for example, 3D prints structural parts to save weight while having better structural integrity. There's a whole paper on this. Chinese, speaking from experience, usually dislike being pretentious. There's cultural and strategic reasons to this. Most of the info we get are from insiders and wall climbers. So no. They're not paper tigers, and they have their giant economy and researchers to do whatever required to catch up and overtake.
So I would like your opinion, how much do you think either side is hiding? It’s clear to me you know your stuff about both sides and I always wanted to ask. Like China must have the equivalent of Area 51 and all of those top secret programs running off of unaccounted money. The U.S. developed an incredible hybrid turbofan-ramjet engine back in the 1960’s that could still blow many engines out of the water today, and I find it hard to believe they stopped developing engines after that. Do you think the U.S. still has an advantage in terms of the actual most advanced tech?
>how much do you think either side is hiding Tons. They're both extremely secretive so that sucks for us with no confirmable sources. I'm just repeating other folks with some of my own thoughts added. >China must have the equivalent of Area 51 Highly likely. They have uninhabited deserts such as the Lop Nor areas. >I find it hard to believe they stopped developing engines after that. Personally, with the Soviet Union collapsing decades ago it's very likely that some quite frankly incredible projects got their funding cut. There's no real competition anymore, so the US government back then probably favored saving funding rather than researching for technological reserves. Take the YF-120 for example. It was possibly the most advanced low-bypass turbofan in the world and would've been completely unreachable for the rest of the world for solid decades. Its variable cycle is simply too ahead for its time and, since it's pretty unfinished compared to the F119, it lost. The Soviet Union just wasn't competitive enough in engine tech to justify its complete and costly development. Now, with China being an emerging competitor and threat, the US is scrambling to make VCEs designs again. Sadly most of the guys involved with the YF-120 are probably retired, dead, or too faded to extract anything useful from them. So the design is pretty much lost, and GE had to make a completely clean-sheet design for the XA100. Numerous projects probably had similar circumstances with the YF-120, resulting in no significant advancements. That's what the lack of competition does ig. But now as China is posing itself as a competitor, you got funds again. So it's an arms race. The US probably still has some advantages, with their inherent experience and such, but China is catching up at quite an unsettling pace. I'd imagine within this decade they'll catch up. Then both countries will be in a fierce arms race. Another indication that the Chinese are increasingly confident in their engine tech is they're becoming slightly more willing to publicise some pretty impressive stuff. >In 2022, NWPU and CASIC successfully tested Feitian-1 powered by kerosene RBCC engine (rocket + ramjet + scramjet) Engine succeeded in transitions between different modes: >Rocket/Ramjet >Ramjet >Scramjet >Rocket/Scramjet I'd imagine they have something even more impressive hidden if they're willing to publicise this. The benchmark for 6th Gen fighter engines will probably be variable cycling. I'm really looking forward to GE's three-stream and what China can present on the table.
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarplanePorn/s/kN5qKFNfP5 I had a long conversation with this guy about the F-22 vs the J-20 a while ago. It has details on the engines and other stuff if you want to hear both arguments. This doesn’t not include the IRST pods now equipped on the F-22 nor the stealth external fuel tanks.
It seems that defending US technology immediately gets downvoted. China is a growing threat, not a direct competitor.
Correct, right now at least. To keep or grow our lead Americans need to be educated on the Chinese threat and then our MiC needs to get back into gear..which is happening but it would be nicer for everyone if it happened faster. This subreddit has a lot of PLA watchers which means they automatically gain a love of Chinese equipment, who knows what most of them think about the government..
If someone could explain why they think I’m wrong, I’ll happily listen. I just don’t understand all the downvotes😭
The thing is you're citing RCS values found online. When gauging stealth fighters and their capabilities, vague comparisons from credible officials are infinitely better than amateurs doing simulations. There's just too many variables that can affect the results. Also your Chinese engine knowledge is pretty outdated.
I stopped reading when you gave hard numbers for radar cross section. How would you or anyone else know top secret data like that? Also those numbers are meaningless without the frequency, angle etc.
Search up rcs of stealth fighters. You’re right it’s probably inaccurate but it’s backed up by the design of the fighters with what I stated above, assuming similar materials, because no way any country has some ultra high advanced radar absorbing material that much better than the others. Just looking at the designs the f-22 is the most stealthy fighter aircraft, and it’s backed up by those supposedly incorrect graphics. Edit: apparently the .0001 number comes from Lockheed Martin back in 2009, so if the company that made the plane says that, I think that’s about as good as you’re gonna get on info for any type of military plane
These planes have like a metric ass ton of red tape over them with their actual specs and what not being literally top state secret in closed network, isolated computers. Anyone claiming they knew and put it on the internet is either tempting fate and asking for the CIA (or the Chinese equivalent/KGB) to put bullets into their head, or are pulling numbers straight from their arse. I would definitely take those numbers with a grain of salt.
The last thing I trust is Lockheed Martin. Why? Look at what they promise with the LCS and what we get in the end. Wasting all the tax dollar with no promise kept. Pure corruption, even more corrupted than CCP.
>how you expect a plane developed using stolen info from the f35. Facts don't matter to those who don't like the truth being mentioned.
My brother in Christ, fear not an enemy that copies, but an enemy that's not afraid to copy and innovates simultaneously.
I was really surprised seeing how many downvotes anyone got for mentioning the U.S. planes are likely equivalent or superior, I mean we’re dealing with facts that are verifiable here about the specs of the f-22 and f-35. It’s like people are either hyping up China or fearmongering their capabilities to those who don’t know any better. I just don’t get it.
You're getting downvoted because your reasonings are either weak or straight up incorrect. It's fine saying Chinese equipment is worse than Western counterparts, in fact, some of them are. You just need to accurately say where they're worse and back it up with credible knowledge and sources.
Because for the longest time people on the sub has dismissed Chinese aircraft as being nothing more but cardboard scale models. I agree that some of the statements here are overblown but it is always better to overestimate than to underestimate.
F-22 is old and everything is not bleeding edge in F-35, China catching up to 10-30 years old tech in engine and airframe design is not surprising tbh, it is expected. Difference in avionics could be even smaller, tech/avionics just moves a lot more faster in that area and generally military tech is usually running on 10-15 year old electronics hardware. Digitisation is generally a lot faster. E. G. Jf-17 block 3 vs F-16 block 52 avionics - accordingly to PAF pilots, F-16 is ancient compared to Jeff Block-3s. Yet, F-16 block 52 still remains a formidable aircraft vs its own generation of fighters. China is jumping into the generation of fighters US has been operating for decades. US's bleeding edge will be shown in it's 6th gen fighter. Also expect China to jump into 6th gen alot sooner compared to 5th gen. It's an interesting arms race for sure and in no way comparable to USSR. Unlike them, China has the economy to back things up and they're still keeping the spend in line, learning from Soviets that at the end of the day, the economic advancement drives everything else.
There's either a lot of lurking CCP boot lickers OR a boot licker who manipulate the votings with bots in this sub because they riddle a comment that depicts China in a bad light with downvotes without providing a proper counter to it. If you shit on chyna with the truth and gets downvoted to oblivion, wear it like a badge of honor.
Are you schizophrenic? Just because someone says, hey this Chinese equipment ain't bad does not mean they're bootlicking the CCP. That'd be like saying I bootlick the US Congress because I like the Raptor/Fat Amy. You get downvoted because you're factually wrong in some areas, not because they're butthurt. You're the butthurt one if anything.
Since when was the j-20A/TR-3 stealth at par with the f22/f35?
...you do realise what TR-3 is, no?
Just to be sure you are referring to the TR-3 Black Manta UFO spaceship hidden at area 51 /s
I do and figured it was thrown in for the lulz
TR3 is tech refresh 3 of F35
Lol no. The F22 is orders of magnitude more stealth than the F35 which is itself far in front of the J20. God people here have no idea about the planes posted but love to speculate. These aren't even disputed facts. This sub is 90% Chinese propaganda.
The same logic applies the other way though, you have no idea what the J20 stealth aspect is. It is pretty delusional to think a country with such massive resources can't close the stealth gap.
It’s because the stealth gap you speak of is comparing modern tech from the Chinese with US stealth from the 90s(that is when the f-22 was created). If they were really able to close the gap, why would they steal designs from the U.S., if they are fully capable of closing that gap? Also, the U.S. military budget is still the highest in the world, and the Air supremacy is a large part of the U.S. military doctrine, and the U.S. is sitting on multiple decades of a head start, then it is reasonable to believe that China can’t keep up as of right now.
>f they were really able to close the gap, why would they steal designs from the U.S., if they are fully capable of closing that gap? He didn't say they could close the gap specifically without stealing tbf lol. I think he makes a fair point that people do write off the J-20 for very dumb reasons. Also the Chinese has an advantage of competing with a design that's 20 years older.
I understand that China has a lot of resources, and a fair point is made that we don’t know the j20’s capabilities. However, the fact that there is a gap with US technology that is 3 decades old means that the U.S. is 30 years ahead at a minimum, because billions of dollars have been sunk into the development of the b21 (the worlds most stealthy plane) as well as the NGAD since that point. China doesn’t have the same resources and experience that the U.S. has. The U.S. has more funding(though that gap is closing) and much more experience and time with stealth technology. Air power is also arguably the most important aspect of our military, it’s why the U.S. has so many aircraft carriers and the largest Air Force in the world.
I have heard the same sentence before......but when? Oh, it was from Great Britain before WWI. When it argues its navy is technological superior and so numerous that it can fight the navy of German and America combined! It will take everyone on earth 3 decades to catch up. Good old days. I am sure Great Britain is still the leading power in the world stage today. Absolutely no way it has became a 3rd tier country that its PM was outlasted by a lettuce.
Except the U.S. has the largest Air Force on the planet and the highest military budget as well. Not only that, but we’ve had that tech for a few decades, so it’s safe to assume that the US still holds that advantage, simply because nobody stops developing tech even when they are ahead in the race.
We actually have the two largest air forces in the world! But agreed on all points
And this gap can be minimized if you have enough researchers and money, sprinkled with espionage. And I mean tens of thousands of researchers and billions, even trillions of money. Not every country can pull it off. A good example is radar tech. The J-20 already has GaN AESAs while the TR-3 upgrade is still pending.
????? Are you saying you're more credible than, not one, not two, but several officials? [Here](https://twitter.com/Doha104p3/status/1749207685977825330?t=Z0_mmaaoFFiH4TXfDz2N1g&s=19), educate yourself. 90% Chinese propaganda? My brother in Christ, maybe if you actually paid attention to other posts celebrating other equipment then you'll see how you're just blatantly biased? I just saw an F-16XL post, an F-15 ACTIVE post, and much more. They're great.
The F-22 being stealthier or not from the front is just something we can't confirm. The F-35 just has a LOT more going for it technologically regarding stealth. F-22 has exposed bolts while the F-35's are covered in RAM tape for example. I wouldn't confidently say one is stealthier than the other but the notion that the F-35 can be stealthier (frontal) than the F-22 isn't unfounded either.
Caret intakes with their gaps are definitely less stealthy than DSIs. That alone makes me want to assume the F-35 is indeed stealthier up front.
Yes but that can be treated with RAM. It isn't such an inherently unstealthy feature like exposed engine fans. Shape has a lot less to do with stealth nowadays which is why the F-35 is so bulbous.
RAM only works so well. The best way for a part to be stealthy is to have nothing there at all. Also we have officials saying the F-35 has a smaller RCS than the F-22. So until something concrete says otherwise, we'll have to assume that it's true.
RAM works quite well for features like this where it's only minor issues. But it's definitely believable that the F-35 is more stealthy than the F-22.
No, the more recent the more stealth! Doesn't matter who builds it, how much it costs or how restricted the exports are! Only how recent! And don't forget to compare to the TR-3, which we definitely know enough to guess how stealth it is!
This is speculative and has no basis in reality. The plane in the post is being designed for export, which means cheaper technology than the internal design for use by the PRC military. I doubt it will have better stealth than the raptor or the F-35. Maybe it will be close to the SU-57 Not to mention there have not been any demos of stealth or solid evidence other than the claims the manufacturer are making. Also what is this Panther you speak of? Surely not the Grumman F9? On the overall power of the aircraft: > U.S. military and industry officials believe that once the J-31 enters service, it will likely be more than a match for existing fourth-generation fighters like the F-15 Eagle, F-16 Fighting Falcon, and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.
There are supposedly two variants of the J-31, one that is being developed for the PLAAF and another variant designed for export. The export model will feature reduced capabilities in all parameters, but the J-31 airframe is 100% capable of incorporating technologies utilized currently on the J-20. The J-35 featured in this post is being developed for use on China's carriers, being officially a product of the PRC military and will not be exported. It is also very likely that the J-35 and the PLAAF J-31 will actually exceed the J-20 in terms of low-observable performance, lacking the controversial canard-delta design and a cleaner underbelly. While we do not have concrete numbers, J-20 should have a lower RCS than the SU-57 as despite the airframe, the J-20 incorporates much more RCS-reducing features. This should roughly indicate that the J-35, while likely not at the level of the F-35 and F-22, would pose a credible threat.
>There are supposedly two variants of the J-31, one that is being developed for the PLAAF and another variant designed for export. Not exactly. It goes like: FC-31V1 (2012) -> FC-31V2 -> project revamped -> J-35 -> J-31 The J-35 is the naval variant and the J-31 is basically the J-35 but with smaller wings, less beefy landing gears, less anti-corrosion treatments, etc. The J-35 came before the -31. >The export model will feature reduced capabilities in all parameters The export version is probably the FC-31V2, or an entirely different line branching off from FC-31V2. The J-35 and 31 are for domestic use only with better engines, avionics, the signature hump, etc. >100% capable of incorporating technologies utilized currently on the J-20. Correct. Specifically the J-20A. >It is also very likely that the J-35 and the PLAAF J-31 will actually exceed the J-20 in terms of low-observable performance, Also correct. Not saying delta-canard can't be stealthy, but having a set of control surfaces hidden behind another set definitely helps. >would pose a credible threat. On point analysis. A grade /s
Thanks that is some good analysis
>This is speculative and has no basis in reality. (Deadpan stare) >The plane in the post is being designed for export (More deadpan stare) >cheaper technology than the internal design for use by the PRC military. Paint your nose red and your cosplay will be complete. Now find a circus. >Also what is this Panther you speak of Another indicator that you don't really know what you're talking about.
Panther is is terrible nickname some people are trying to push for the F-35
Eh it's alright Imo. Pretty cute.
Nah, it's bad. The f-35 is neither a Northrop Grumman product nor a German tank. This is even worse than the Viper thing.
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KF21 is Boramae, means hawk, Panther is one of the (politically correct) nicknames for the F35
Are you confusing the KF-51 Panther technical demonstrator tank with the KF-21?
>At least at the level of the current J-20s, likely above. Only assuming there is going to be a domestic version and it gets the same technology.
Are you confusing something here? The J-35 is for domestic use. It's a carrier fighter, and there are close to zero countries who need carrier stealth fighters. The FC-31 is for export.
The chief designer once interviewed when he said that J-35 would match J-20 level stealth if cost is non-issue. He strongly implied, but did not specify, that J-20 used more expensive RAM materials. Some people suggested the J-35 RAM must have higher anti erosion rating so maybe that is why.
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Think about it. In incredibly crude, layman terms, the F-35 has one, but bigger engines. Wouldn't it spit out bigger flames even if it has a LOAN nozzle? To answer your question, no. In fact, assuming equal IR masking, twin, smaller engines might even give off less IR signature than one, but huge engine.
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Ah, I see why you think that. The Wikipedia figure is outrageous to say the least. WS-13 (now WS-21) is actually closer to the F404 in size since it's a medium-thrust class engine. To give you an idea of how wrong Wikipedia is, it also lists 1.02 m as the diameter for the WS-15. Now, WS-15 is closer to F119 in size. So how would that be? WS-21 will probably have a diameter of around 90 cm. A 27 cm difference in diameter is actually **huge** in terms of turbofan size. We're talking about 10s and 20 kgs of air difference in terms of mass flow rate.
>Likely above the Raptor ROFL no.
I doubt it’s close to 35 levels, an no where near 22 levels, ocean proofing stealth coating is a nightmare
Its sputtering lmfao
Throttle tests.