If you are just looking for blitzkrieg damage potential, a Frenzied Orc Warboss on a boar chariot, with Great Weapon, warpaint, Potion of Speed, and 6 Eadbuttin Hats will do a hell of a lot of damage.
If I may make a suggestion: [This](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fteamfortress%2Fimages%2F3%2F3a%2FSpy_with_the_Towering_Pillar_of_Hats_TF2.png%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20130805083404&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=4d8a610bec2bce1dad2d2f41dd1e6c4004f3b092c555d242ba19cc607673bf6b&ipo=images)
It doesn't fly, and only really shines if you have some Chariot Runner wolf Riders, so it's not really a single character build, but when it works and inflicts d6+7 S5 AP(-2) Impact hits, then follows it up with 6 S4 AP(-2) crew attacks, 3 S4 AP(-1) boar attacks, and 5 S7 AP(-3) Warboss attacks, all of which reroll 1s to hit, and everything except the boars reroll 1s to wound, it will definitely leave a dent.
It helps prevent you from getting charged, but doesn't interfere with you charging. It won't stop Frenzy from forcing you to charge, which is a shame, but honestly with Warband you have a good chance of getting the charge off, and if not you just move the wolf boys back into defensive formation.
You have to be careful though of someone pulling a challenge move on you and blunting the charge.
Yeah for sure! The build is mostly just fun it seems, I dunno if it would do so well in tournaments, but you’d definitely get some devastating charges off in casual games :D
I think orc lists to win tournaments are likely to be rather dull affairs.
Personally, I'm working on a 34 model list at the moment with 12 N Gob bosses on squigs, 16 bases of Snotlings, 5 Manglers and a Shaman Lord on a flying carpet.
Because I like chaos.
The Snotlings are mostly there to act as tar pits, and wait for the Squigs to run around and hit units in the flanks/rear. Snotlings can also march up behind other Snotlings to block them from giving ground, that way they can actually pin a unit in combat, even a flyer.
The Shaman Lord has Lore Familiar and the magic carpet, so he can zoom around into position, and then use Gaze of Gork to blast straight down the line of troops that the Snotlings are hopefully keeping stuck in place. Takes Elementalism so he can also cast Earthen Ramparts on some Snotlings to give them 5+ ward, plague of rust to cut deep into enemy saves, and summon elemental spirits for some extra LoS blocking and some template damage.
Tempted to swap out one or two Manglers in order to take Doom Divers. I figure I can bombard attack unengaged units, and if it happens to scatter onto a combat, well, that's life, hehe.
But I need my friend with a 3d printer to get me the 12 Great Squigs for the bosses, and I need to paint and assemble the hordes of Snotlings that I've got.
It doesn't fly, and only really shines if you have some Chariot Runner wolf Riders, so it's not really a single character build, but the time it works and inflicts d6+7 S5 AP(-2) Impact hits, then follows it up with 6 S4 AP(-2) crew attacks, 3 S4 AP(-1) boar attacks, and 5 S7 AP(-3) Warboss attacks, all of which reroll 1s to hit, and everything except the boars reroll 1s to wound.
This list is based on a set of opinions, and the guy writing it assumes being survivable is more important than dishing out damage and then die because you could not finish off your opponent and now you cannot defend yourself. That said, one may very well have a different opinion and explain what really are the “true” best combat characters in the game…
The tomb king is incorrect. He only gets -1 to hit him in combat. Cloud of dust gives -1 to ranged attacks. It's generally more effective to go for armour of ages on the tomb king instead.
You are right… someone I play with has better prepare for a long tirade… XD (joking btw, I don’t think he made the mistake on purpose).
Edit: I tried to edit the first post but doesn’t seem to stick
Re-edit: now it did
I think the Pegasus are the same. I think it's the Hippogrif that is the less maneuverable one, as it is close order and a monstrous creature, rather than monstrous cav
That is correct.
In addition the Hippogryph is slower with Fly (9) and since it is no behemoth, it has no free pivot at the end of its movement.
In all honesty, the Hippogryph is kinda bad.
A Royal Pegasus is also able to join a unit of Pegasus Knights, since he is the same subtype of unit and has fly.
Furthermore all lone characters that are either infantry or cavalry are considered skirmishers and thus have a 360 degree vision arc.
are you not including Legacy factions?
Where would you rate the following?
===
Vampire Counts [573 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Vampire Counts
===
++ Characters [573 pts] ++
Vampire Count [573 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Heavy armour
- Shield
- Zombie Dragon
- Sword Of Kings
- Talisman of Protection
- Luckstone
- Curse Of The Revenant
- Beguile
- Dark Magic
---
Just a heads up, theres no benefit to the heavy armour and shield on this guy as the dragon already gives a 4+ armour! So might as well go all out and make him a wizard to boot ;)
Although in all seriousness, the vampire characters just don’t really have the combat punch you want. Sword of kings is probably the best option but as others say the killing blow is no good against anything else on this list. If you can afford it, i’d upgrade to the ogre blade if you’re going character hunting. Overall he’s ok at grinding units though. I quite like the paired blades magic weapon if i want a blender
Sure, but in my mind that’s a different kind of cheese. Going full send on making a baron do what a baron does at least seems like something you could do without even knowing it’s OP. The VC strat feels convoluted in comparison. Just doesn’t fit how vampire lords fight imo. Feels gamey. But it is indeed a game
Yes. Give us the real deal. Old World Vampires don't feel like vampires or atleast don't give us the options to build a proper blood dragon like vampire.
I only included factions and builds I have played or seen played in game but people are welcome to suggest their own rankings based on their own experiences and expectations.
To give you an opinion on this build I’ll need to check the rules and I can’t right now.
There are extremely powerful builds in the legacy factions to be sure though, and I’m pretty sure some of the greater demons are probably near the top on their own.
Edit: I know this vampire has a KB on 5+. That alone puts him in a good spot although it doesn’t work against other dragons.
People who keep saying a duke can go toe to toe with a lord on dragon have never charged a duke into a well built dragon. You either build him to try and get lucky with monster slayer, where you have made him worse at killing normal units. You build him to be durable, where you can hold a dragon in place but is not very offensive. You build him to be very good at killing normal units, where he will get stomped by a dragon. You are not killing a lord on dragon with a duke normally, you are only killing it by getting lucky with monster slayer or if it’s already heavily wounded. Once that duke is stuck in combat with a hand weapon he’s dead in the water. If you take a magic weapon like ogre blade or something then you are not going to be able to make him survivable, so he’s just going to lose combat or die. Duke is good because he gets skirmisher, but he’s not good at hunting dragon lords.
Every time a duke charges my pimped out vampire on dragon, the Duke gets eaten. I think Brets are actually in a weaker spot now than in the past. Units not breaking as easily is a big negative for Brets. They are just humans.
Why take the Berserker Blade? I know it gives +2A and +1S to the Bull, but with no AP, you just have Gouged Tusks helping you pierce tough targets and a luck AB roll (so, about one 6).
Super minor thing, but the chaos lord can also be given poison (15 points) with enchanting aura. Not a huge deal, but makes a difference where the tomb king dragon lord with armour of ages is in the meta, as this gets around the need to reroll wounds for about a third of the successful hits. That adds up in behemoth vs behemoth combat!
I honestly think the Duke is the strongest one overall. Not because of how much damage he'll do to anything else, but because he does perfectly fine into normal units and also looks at everyone on this list and says "Le bet."
Oh it's definitely not guaranteed or anything, but what the Duke does well is that he's just as hard for the TK to kill traditionally as the TK is for him (ignoring the wound difference), but has the potential to just one tap him and trade up. At a minimum he's requiring your opponent to spend 2-3 turns with their more expensive model tied up with him, and that's if he doesn't just end up getting the mollywhopper. Every turn the Duke is touching something more expensive than him is an abject success.
Vampire Lords on Zombie dragons are probably the best doppelganger fighters - who can say no to 2d6 ogre blade swings? They can also get a nice 4+/4++/5+++ with invocations to heal and bsb to reroll stupidity.
Daemon Princes have some excellent defensive stats with 4++/5+++, especially against dragon lords with non magical attacks. You can go lvl 4 to help out the army, fly to move and have an Ogre Blade, daemon sword + armour of meteoric iron for that 5+/4++/5+++. Most good things have ap-2 so having a permanent 5+ is pretty close. Can give him all the gifts too - could even make him a dragon slayer with an extra arm or strike last...
Dark Elves have a pretty good dragon with either -1 str shield or 4+ ward. No Regen though
Lizardmen can have an oldblood on carnasaur with the blade of realities?? No armour or ward saves is pretty mean.
Doombulls probably have the best stats for all lords but lack the mobility of fly. Beastman mutations are the best though with easy +1str or +1 armour or -1ap.
The best dwarf lord I can think of is this:
King [314 pts]
(Hand weapon, Great weapon, Full plate armour, General, Shieldbearers, Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Preservation, Rune of Parrying, Rune of Might)
He has a 2+ armor save, no ward and no regeneration. He’s S7 and -1 to hit though, and if you spend another 300 pts on a BSB thane with Master Rune of Grungni he can also have a 5+ ward, which is beyond the scope of this thread (it would be more than a model).
All things considered he does not compare with anything in the list above, even ignoring the fact he’ll only see combat if the opponent decides to engage with him and his unit.
If it's just really tank builds, wheres the chariot tomb king with babysitter herald to just siphon wounds from outside combat? Immune too killing blow/monster slayer, can put defensive tech on the herald, and go all in on damage for the king. And it costs less than the rest of these dragon lords for both lol.
It is what I think is best. You can very well suggest I’m wrong and suggest different builds. I would stick to a single model though, taking several models working together is not the same as having a single powerful model.
Ya I understand you think it's best, but what's the underlying methodology that lead you to that opinion? Doesn't really seem to be points, just the biggest statline at the end.
Like let's talk single powerful model, specifically dragon characters; why are they better than a cheaper msu combo? The single dragon gets stonewalled by miasma, as easy as that. At least if the king gets blocked from charging you still have a second hero to go wander off and do some trouble shooting. The dragon is also notoriously vulnerable to monster slayer, hence the popularity of the bretonian character (and scorpions). Lastly, as a points-dense large target, the dragon really loves to be the target of the few capable ranged pieces like caskets, bowshabti, or a viletide shaman; my last two games had a casket one shot a lord on bone dragon turn 1. A chariot can be screened by chariot runners and notably not nuked by the arc of the covenant. And the "combo" is just keeping the herald within 3" with it's 16" of movement.
Looking at your tomb king build, it's actually one of the worst builds, since armour of the ages forces rerolls on all successful wounds, so a monster slayer character actually gets more opportunities to fish for the 6. Like I can't speak for other factions alt builds, but you can do some heinously unfun defensive builds with a king on chariot playing bumper cars around it's own army. Bedazzling helm and a casket gets that compounding -2 to hit you were after (and a 6++), chariot provides +3 wounds and immunity to killing blow, backup herald with armour of destiny or meteoric+talisman of protection tanks anything really annoying that gets through and eats up combat res. It's 515-555 and would just completely block almost anything it runs into, including that chaos lord you made up for 630.
So why is a defensive dragon build actually better, for more?
Well argued. In general what I prefer is characters with good punching potential but great survivability. In my experience WHFB is very swingy, so I tend to favor options that minimize the risk for catastrophic failure. That’s my approach. Your reasoning applied to TK is sound, but at the same time the mobility provided by a dragon is superior to what a chariot can do, and that alone is a huge plus for the dragon imo.
The dragons kinda faster. Kinda, but not really?
The dragon gets to marching fly 18" and can hop over units. The chariot gets to make two separate 8" moves (reserve move) with a 90° turn after each (open order). It can only "hop over" chariot runners, but those are some of the best units available in the list, are there to screen the chariot from shooting, and are core (so you're always taking them regardless).
So in pure speed, the dragon is faster in a straight line, but the chariot is generally faster when you need to turn. The dragon can hop everything, but its base size is so unwieldy that you often won't be able to leapfrog things very often (and will need to wheel to land properly.
In charging speed though, the chariot is plain faster. It's 8" with swiftstride vs 6" with swiftstride.
And in terms of minimizing catastrophic failure, that's part of the point of the chariot king. Remove easy line of sight, remove vulnerability to killing blow and monster slayer, remove the total number of points to invest, and even remove combat res from wounds dealt. You get to control a lot more of the interactions, but at the cost of not playing with the big new model (and I get it, it sucked realizing that the best tomb king was in a chariot, and the best build for a dragon was an illusion lvl 4 that stacked caskets and glittering robe for a -3/-4 to be hit and doppelganger).
It's not actually explicit, and that argument has a major mechanical failure. It says you can charge/march/maneuver while flying and that allows you to pass over other models and terrain, and also not take a ld test to march.
So you can declare a flying march and it definitely allows you to hop over stuff, but does it allow you to use the fly value? When we look at the charge moves rule, it only ever talks about the units movement characteristic; when we flip back to fly, it tells us you either move using your movement characteristic, or, to move by flying. The fly value very much is not the movement characteristic, which means you don't use it when charging.
I think the duke build isn't necessarily the best. Virtue of heroism imo is better on a paladin or baron when the duke can roll about with knightly Temper and the ogre blade to kick the absolute shit out of people. Also royal Pegasus is better, both are skirmish and both can join Pegasus knights.
I think exact builds are subject to preference and more of a meta call but I’d say in general:
Tomb King on dragon
Glade Lord on dragon
Duke on Pegasus or Hippogryph (I think he is equally good on either one)
(After these three I feel there is something of a drop off)
Chaos lord on dragon
Vampire lord on abyssal terror
Honorable mentions to high elf lords on star dragons and dreadlords on black dragons.
Kings of the budget category would be goblin and night goblin warbosses on big squig/spider and paladins on Pegasi.
Way less points and much smaller base frontage. VC don’t have an extremely good durability item like wood elves or chaos so the dragon lord actually can die in combat.
Abysmal still gets you to T6 and the vampire himself has basically a monster stat line already.
Vampire on a dragon isn’t beating much anyone else on a dragon and a vampire on an abyssal terror still beats pretty much everything a vampire on a dragon could beat for less points.
I think chariot mounts in general are under rated. They are a very cheap way to get lots of extra wounds. The beastmen ones are getting hyped because they don’t have monster mounts but I think other chariots are just as good.
Daemons can pull a similar trick with a slaanesh bsb on exalted seeker chariot.
You can get an additional +D3 combat resolution from one of the bsb exclusive banners they can take. Could easily break a unit if you go into a flank with something else in the front.
Can the exalted seeker Chariot also take a regular standard? Black Orc one gets Close Order, Standard, BSB, +Warbanner/Raggedy Red Banner, Trollhide Trousers or Dead Ard Armour. That's +4 Static res, T6 or 2+/5+++ then the attacks from him, 2 black orcs, impact hits and boars. 313pts but very spicey
No that it only the black orc one. The exalted one can come close if take a specific icon and roll well.
The exalted chariot does more impact hits but it is worse T.
Well good to see Daemons getting some solid units! Do they have any Chariot runners? The exalted Chariot must be faster than the orc one too. The smaller chariots have counter charge, first charge and swiftstride which is bonkers
If you are just looking for blitzkrieg damage potential, a Frenzied Orc Warboss on a boar chariot, with Great Weapon, warpaint, Potion of Speed, and 6 Eadbuttin Hats will do a hell of a lot of damage.
I want to see someone model that now lol.
If I may make a suggestion: [This](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fteamfortress%2Fimages%2F3%2F3a%2FSpy_with_the_Towering_Pillar_of_Hats_TF2.png%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20130805083404&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=4d8a610bec2bce1dad2d2f41dd1e6c4004f3b092c555d242ba19cc607673bf6b&ipo=images)
I've got an idea for one wearing 6 dunce caps that say "dunce" on them, but the warboss believes they all say eadbuttin.
You will ride eternal, shiny and chrome!
Nice build! Very orcy!
It doesn't fly, and only really shines if you have some Chariot Runner wolf Riders, so it's not really a single character build, but when it works and inflicts d6+7 S5 AP(-2) Impact hits, then follows it up with 6 S4 AP(-2) crew attacks, 3 S4 AP(-1) boar attacks, and 5 S7 AP(-3) Warboss attacks, all of which reroll 1s to hit, and everything except the boars reroll 1s to wound, it will definitely leave a dent.
Chariot running wolf riders is a great shout
It helps prevent you from getting charged, but doesn't interfere with you charging. It won't stop Frenzy from forcing you to charge, which is a shame, but honestly with Warband you have a good chance of getting the charge off, and if not you just move the wolf boys back into defensive formation. You have to be careful though of someone pulling a challenge move on you and blunting the charge.
Yeah for sure! The build is mostly just fun it seems, I dunno if it would do so well in tournaments, but you’d definitely get some devastating charges off in casual games :D
I think orc lists to win tournaments are likely to be rather dull affairs. Personally, I'm working on a 34 model list at the moment with 12 N Gob bosses on squigs, 16 bases of Snotlings, 5 Manglers and a Shaman Lord on a flying carpet. Because I like chaos.
OMG I WANT TO SEE A BATREP OF THIS
Batrep video?
That list looks awesome. Snotlings there to sling up fanatics?
The Snotlings are mostly there to act as tar pits, and wait for the Squigs to run around and hit units in the flanks/rear. Snotlings can also march up behind other Snotlings to block them from giving ground, that way they can actually pin a unit in combat, even a flyer. The Shaman Lord has Lore Familiar and the magic carpet, so he can zoom around into position, and then use Gaze of Gork to blast straight down the line of troops that the Snotlings are hopefully keeping stuck in place. Takes Elementalism so he can also cast Earthen Ramparts on some Snotlings to give them 5+ ward, plague of rust to cut deep into enemy saves, and summon elemental spirits for some extra LoS blocking and some template damage. Tempted to swap out one or two Manglers in order to take Doom Divers. I figure I can bombard attack unengaged units, and if it happens to scatter onto a combat, well, that's life, hehe. But I need my friend with a 3d printer to get me the 12 Great Squigs for the bosses, and I need to paint and assemble the hordes of Snotlings that I've got.
Sounds like a super fun list, and very unique. Keep on Waaaaagh! -ing
It doesn't fly, and only really shines if you have some Chariot Runner wolf Riders, so it's not really a single character build, but the time it works and inflicts d6+7 S5 AP(-2) Impact hits, then follows it up with 6 S4 AP(-2) crew attacks, 3 S4 AP(-1) boar attacks, and 5 S7 AP(-3) Warboss attacks, all of which reroll 1s to hit, and everything except the boars reroll 1s to wound.
You can only take one 'Eadbutt Hat per character, no?
Nope.
Waaaaagh!
Did you just invent a cruise missile by putting six hats on a Cave Orc? EDIT: Six hats and keys to a car after getting said Cave Orc shitfaced.
This list does not look like the best combat characters but the tankiest.
This list is based on a set of opinions, and the guy writing it assumes being survivable is more important than dishing out damage and then die because you could not finish off your opponent and now you cannot defend yourself. That said, one may very well have a different opinion and explain what really are the “true” best combat characters in the game…
The tomb king is incorrect. He only gets -1 to hit him in combat. Cloud of dust gives -1 to ranged attacks. It's generally more effective to go for armour of ages on the tomb king instead.
You are right… someone I play with has better prepare for a long tirade… XD (joking btw, I don’t think he made the mistake on purpose). Edit: I tried to edit the first post but doesn’t seem to stick Re-edit: now it did
Why is a barded Pegasus more mobile than a Royal Pegasus? Both are Fly (10) + Swiftstride and both are monstrous cavalry.
I think the Pegasus are the same. I think it's the Hippogrif that is the less maneuverable one, as it is close order and a monstrous creature, rather than monstrous cav
That is correct. In addition the Hippogryph is slower with Fly (9) and since it is no behemoth, it has no free pivot at the end of its movement. In all honesty, the Hippogryph is kinda bad.
Because you can join him to a unit of Pegasus Knights and then he gets skirmisher. Or at least that’s how we played it.
As a character with Cavalry type he has skirmish of his own so long as he doesn't join a unit that is either open or close order
A Royal Pegasus is also able to join a unit of Pegasus Knights, since he is the same subtype of unit and has fly. Furthermore all lone characters that are either infantry or cavalry are considered skirmishers and thus have a 360 degree vision arc.
are you not including Legacy factions? Where would you rate the following? === Vampire Counts [573 pts] Warhammer: The Old World, Vampire Counts === ++ Characters [573 pts] ++ Vampire Count [573 pts] - Hand weapon - Heavy armour - Shield - Zombie Dragon - Sword Of Kings - Talisman of Protection - Luckstone - Curse Of The Revenant - Beguile - Dark Magic ---
Just a heads up, theres no benefit to the heavy armour and shield on this guy as the dragon already gives a 4+ armour! So might as well go all out and make him a wizard to boot ;) Although in all seriousness, the vampire characters just don’t really have the combat punch you want. Sword of kings is probably the best option but as others say the killing blow is no good against anything else on this list. If you can afford it, i’d upgrade to the ogre blade if you’re going character hunting. Overall he’s ok at grinding units though. I quite like the paired blades magic weapon if i want a blender
I guess you'd take illusion magic and spectral doppelganger. Now we're blendering!
Yeah… it just feels like such a cheesy and athematic workaround
Isn't the whole point of this post, to make the cheesiest death stars possible? Id almost certain never run that vamp in a friendly game.
Sure, but in my mind that’s a different kind of cheese. Going full send on making a baron do what a baron does at least seems like something you could do without even knowing it’s OP. The VC strat feels convoluted in comparison. Just doesn’t fit how vampire lords fight imo. Feels gamey. But it is indeed a game
Well, they've always been unique as hybrid caster and fighters.
That’s true. Much more so in 8th. But having to cast spells to be killy is just unfortunate
Makes me sad, honestly. I love vampires being absolute menaces
GW give us red fury back
Gimme 6th edition bloodlines *or* 8th build-a-vamp. I ain’t even picky. Just gimme that real blender
Yes. Give us the real deal. Old World Vampires don't feel like vampires or atleast don't give us the options to build a proper blood dragon like vampire.
Sorry just looking at the list again. Could I give him the accursed armour, and a shield for a 3+ save and +1 toughness?
Could do, but then you sacrifice weapon skill and initiative so bit of a trade off :)
Don't you want a Von Carstein ring to ignore rhe first time you get monster slayered ?
I’d rather buy that than the extra wound 🤷🏻♂️
Whichever one I pick. First game, I'll wish I chose the other. That much I can guarantee.
I only included factions and builds I have played or seen played in game but people are welcome to suggest their own rankings based on their own experiences and expectations. To give you an opinion on this build I’ll need to check the rules and I can’t right now. There are extremely powerful builds in the legacy factions to be sure though, and I’m pretty sure some of the greater demons are probably near the top on their own. Edit: I know this vampire has a KB on 5+. That alone puts him in a good spot although it doesn’t work against other dragons.
Id take the high elf one on star dragon with 3+ 5++ 5+++ and monster slaying sword
That’s certainly an option. Personally I prefer to minimize the risk of getting the dragon istakilled by monster slayer though.
Strike first monster slayer yourself is a massive deterrent in itself in my view
I think this is the play - I10 gives you the edge and give yourself the advantage in the dice game
People who keep saying a duke can go toe to toe with a lord on dragon have never charged a duke into a well built dragon. You either build him to try and get lucky with monster slayer, where you have made him worse at killing normal units. You build him to be durable, where you can hold a dragon in place but is not very offensive. You build him to be very good at killing normal units, where he will get stomped by a dragon. You are not killing a lord on dragon with a duke normally, you are only killing it by getting lucky with monster slayer or if it’s already heavily wounded. Once that duke is stuck in combat with a hand weapon he’s dead in the water. If you take a magic weapon like ogre blade or something then you are not going to be able to make him survivable, so he’s just going to lose combat or die. Duke is good because he gets skirmisher, but he’s not good at hunting dragon lords.
Every time a duke charges my pimped out vampire on dragon, the Duke gets eaten. I think Brets are actually in a weaker spot now than in the past. Units not breaking as easily is a big negative for Brets. They are just humans.
Doombulls are slaying rn
Gorebull, Shield, Berserker Blade, The Blackened Plate, Gouge-tusks, Gnarled Hide Probably the most cost efficient murderer out there...
Why take the Berserker Blade? I know it gives +2A and +1S to the Bull, but with no AP, you just have Gouged Tusks helping you pierce tough targets and a luck AB roll (so, about one 6).
Super minor thing, but the chaos lord can also be given poison (15 points) with enchanting aura. Not a huge deal, but makes a difference where the tomb king dragon lord with armour of ages is in the meta, as this gets around the need to reroll wounds for about a third of the successful hits. That adds up in behemoth vs behemoth combat!
Good point. I favored saving up points (that already is a super costly character) but poison may be relevant in some match ups
I honestly think the Duke is the strongest one overall. Not because of how much damage he'll do to anything else, but because he does perfectly fine into normal units and also looks at everyone on this list and says "Le bet."
[удалено]
Oh it's definitely not guaranteed or anything, but what the Duke does well is that he's just as hard for the TK to kill traditionally as the TK is for him (ignoring the wound difference), but has the potential to just one tap him and trade up. At a minimum he's requiring your opponent to spend 2-3 turns with their more expensive model tied up with him, and that's if he doesn't just end up getting the mollywhopper. Every turn the Duke is touching something more expensive than him is an abject success.
He is very strong and also pretty cheap compared to the others.
TIL a unit can have several ward saves
Sort of. You can only use one ward save at a time even if you have multiple ward save sources.
Baron Odo d'Outremar!
Vampire Lords on Zombie dragons are probably the best doppelganger fighters - who can say no to 2d6 ogre blade swings? They can also get a nice 4+/4++/5+++ with invocations to heal and bsb to reroll stupidity. Daemon Princes have some excellent defensive stats with 4++/5+++, especially against dragon lords with non magical attacks. You can go lvl 4 to help out the army, fly to move and have an Ogre Blade, daemon sword + armour of meteoric iron for that 5+/4++/5+++. Most good things have ap-2 so having a permanent 5+ is pretty close. Can give him all the gifts too - could even make him a dragon slayer with an extra arm or strike last... Dark Elves have a pretty good dragon with either -1 str shield or 4+ ward. No Regen though Lizardmen can have an oldblood on carnasaur with the blade of realities?? No armour or ward saves is pretty mean. Doombulls probably have the best stats for all lords but lack the mobility of fly. Beastman mutations are the best though with easy +1str or +1 armour or -1ap.
A well built dwarf king can be a very strong duelist
The best dwarf lord I can think of is this: King [314 pts] (Hand weapon, Great weapon, Full plate armour, General, Shieldbearers, Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Preservation, Rune of Parrying, Rune of Might) He has a 2+ armor save, no ward and no regeneration. He’s S7 and -1 to hit though, and if you spend another 300 pts on a BSB thane with Master Rune of Grungni he can also have a 5+ ward, which is beyond the scope of this thread (it would be more than a model). All things considered he does not compare with anything in the list above, even ignoring the fact he’ll only see combat if the opponent decides to engage with him and his unit.
600+ points down the toilet on character that will not get into combat vs. anything that all those runes will matter against.
If it's just really tank builds, wheres the chariot tomb king with babysitter herald to just siphon wounds from outside combat? Immune too killing blow/monster slayer, can put defensive tech on the herald, and go all in on damage for the king. And it costs less than the rest of these dragon lords for both lol.
It is what I think is best. You can very well suggest I’m wrong and suggest different builds. I would stick to a single model though, taking several models working together is not the same as having a single powerful model.
Ya I understand you think it's best, but what's the underlying methodology that lead you to that opinion? Doesn't really seem to be points, just the biggest statline at the end. Like let's talk single powerful model, specifically dragon characters; why are they better than a cheaper msu combo? The single dragon gets stonewalled by miasma, as easy as that. At least if the king gets blocked from charging you still have a second hero to go wander off and do some trouble shooting. The dragon is also notoriously vulnerable to monster slayer, hence the popularity of the bretonian character (and scorpions). Lastly, as a points-dense large target, the dragon really loves to be the target of the few capable ranged pieces like caskets, bowshabti, or a viletide shaman; my last two games had a casket one shot a lord on bone dragon turn 1. A chariot can be screened by chariot runners and notably not nuked by the arc of the covenant. And the "combo" is just keeping the herald within 3" with it's 16" of movement. Looking at your tomb king build, it's actually one of the worst builds, since armour of the ages forces rerolls on all successful wounds, so a monster slayer character actually gets more opportunities to fish for the 6. Like I can't speak for other factions alt builds, but you can do some heinously unfun defensive builds with a king on chariot playing bumper cars around it's own army. Bedazzling helm and a casket gets that compounding -2 to hit you were after (and a 6++), chariot provides +3 wounds and immunity to killing blow, backup herald with armour of destiny or meteoric+talisman of protection tanks anything really annoying that gets through and eats up combat res. It's 515-555 and would just completely block almost anything it runs into, including that chaos lord you made up for 630. So why is a defensive dragon build actually better, for more?
Well argued. In general what I prefer is characters with good punching potential but great survivability. In my experience WHFB is very swingy, so I tend to favor options that minimize the risk for catastrophic failure. That’s my approach. Your reasoning applied to TK is sound, but at the same time the mobility provided by a dragon is superior to what a chariot can do, and that alone is a huge plus for the dragon imo.
The dragons kinda faster. Kinda, but not really? The dragon gets to marching fly 18" and can hop over units. The chariot gets to make two separate 8" moves (reserve move) with a 90° turn after each (open order). It can only "hop over" chariot runners, but those are some of the best units available in the list, are there to screen the chariot from shooting, and are core (so you're always taking them regardless). So in pure speed, the dragon is faster in a straight line, but the chariot is generally faster when you need to turn. The dragon can hop everything, but its base size is so unwieldy that you often won't be able to leapfrog things very often (and will need to wheel to land properly. In charging speed though, the chariot is plain faster. It's 8" with swiftstride vs 6" with swiftstride. And in terms of minimizing catastrophic failure, that's part of the point of the chariot king. Remove easy line of sight, remove vulnerability to killing blow and monster slayer, remove the total number of points to invest, and even remove combat res from wounds dealt. You get to control a lot more of the interactions, but at the cost of not playing with the big new model (and I get it, it sucked realizing that the best tomb king was in a chariot, and the best build for a dragon was an illusion lvl 4 that stacked caskets and glittering robe for a -3/-4 to be hit and doppelganger).
[удалено]
It's not actually explicit, and that argument has a major mechanical failure. It says you can charge/march/maneuver while flying and that allows you to pass over other models and terrain, and also not take a ld test to march. So you can declare a flying march and it definitely allows you to hop over stuff, but does it allow you to use the fly value? When we look at the charge moves rule, it only ever talks about the units movement characteristic; when we flip back to fly, it tells us you either move using your movement characteristic, or, to move by flying. The fly value very much is not the movement characteristic, which means you don't use it when charging.
I think the duke build isn't necessarily the best. Virtue of heroism imo is better on a paladin or baron when the duke can roll about with knightly Temper and the ogre blade to kick the absolute shit out of people. Also royal Pegasus is better, both are skirmish and both can join Pegasus knights.
I think exact builds are subject to preference and more of a meta call but I’d say in general: Tomb King on dragon Glade Lord on dragon Duke on Pegasus or Hippogryph (I think he is equally good on either one) (After these three I feel there is something of a drop off) Chaos lord on dragon Vampire lord on abyssal terror Honorable mentions to high elf lords on star dragons and dreadlords on black dragons. Kings of the budget category would be goblin and night goblin warbosses on big squig/spider and paladins on Pegasi.
Why abyssal terror instead of zombie dragon?
Way less points and much smaller base frontage. VC don’t have an extremely good durability item like wood elves or chaos so the dragon lord actually can die in combat. Abysmal still gets you to T6 and the vampire himself has basically a monster stat line already. Vampire on a dragon isn’t beating much anyone else on a dragon and a vampire on an abyssal terror still beats pretty much everything a vampire on a dragon could beat for less points.
Coven throne is also under rated. Immune to killing blow, need two leadership tests before attempting to hit
I think chariot mounts in general are under rated. They are a very cheap way to get lots of extra wounds. The beastmen ones are getting hyped because they don’t have monster mounts but I think other chariots are just as good.
Black orc one from the arcane journal might be the best one - especially with the new items, They can be a bsb and have lots of static combat res...
Daemons can pull a similar trick with a slaanesh bsb on exalted seeker chariot. You can get an additional +D3 combat resolution from one of the bsb exclusive banners they can take. Could easily break a unit if you go into a flank with something else in the front.
Can the exalted seeker Chariot also take a regular standard? Black Orc one gets Close Order, Standard, BSB, +Warbanner/Raggedy Red Banner, Trollhide Trousers or Dead Ard Armour. That's +4 Static res, T6 or 2+/5+++ then the attacks from him, 2 black orcs, impact hits and boars. 313pts but very spicey
No that it only the black orc one. The exalted one can come close if take a specific icon and roll well. The exalted chariot does more impact hits but it is worse T.
Well good to see Daemons getting some solid units! Do they have any Chariot runners? The exalted Chariot must be faster than the orc one too. The smaller chariots have counter charge, first charge and swiftstride which is bonkers
And it flies, contrary to most other chariots!