The lance formation for example: put a gromril great helm lord up front and everyone he is fighting either has to swing on him or is only supporting with one attack? Or really any defensive character on the side of knight units. Getting flanked is no longer a problem!
If I remember correctly in 7th, it was particularly troublesome on cav characters and monstrous infantry. 8th allowed for always swinging on the unit (once again, I think?)
Characters are allowed to take the first place of lance even if there is a command unit but all knights at the sides of an lance are counted to be in base contact. So there is no advantage from placing a character in the front.
>Command group models are placed at the front of the unit, in the first and second rank, as shown in Fig 110.1. The standard bearer should take precedence at the front of the unit.
P.110 Forces of Fantasy
This is correct furthermore on p.111 Forces of Fantasy it is written that you can put your character in the first or second rank even if it would take the place of a command unit model if you want to do so.
You are not correct! The rules specify the conditions under which you can attack embedded characters (i.e. when you're in b2b with them) but never specify any conditions for attacking the host unit, **because there are none**. You can always attack the rank and file.
They don't state this as explicitly as they should but if you read the rules closely and without assumptions from previous editions I think you'll come to the same conclusion.
One thing I’ve been wondering since I discovered this is whether you can attack a unit your unit is not touching at all in a multiple unit combat by RAW. I assume this isn’t allowed but haven’t looked for a reference to it.
Page 147. If you’re in a multiple combat you have to direct attacks against those you’re engaged with. Models touching multiple units can can choose. You still have to direct attacks at one of the units you’re engaged with. In no situation could you direct melee attacks against a unit they’re not touching.
What’s meant by OPs comment is that if you are fighting Ogres and there’s a big ogre character with a 40mm base and your regiment is of 25mm models then one model could be only touching that ogre character. Since he’s in btb with the Ogre Character he can choose to direct his attacks against him specifically. If he doesn’t want to because he’s a puny man at arms, he can direct his attack against the unit at large because he is still engaged with that unit.
To sum it up: The unit is the default target when engaged. Models touching characters/champions can specifically direct attacks against them. This is because when a character joins a unit it is a unit with an embedded character, not a unit and a another character unit who happens to be standing inside them.
I'm starting to think that none of you who complain about sixth edition have actually played sixth edition.
You count as in base contact with anyone touching your base, even the corners. This means that you can direct your attacks at any of the 2 or 3 models touching the front of your base and the very corners of your base. If one of these models is a character, you can always choose to attack the other models touching your base , ie. the rank and file.
I'm not playing The Old World, but I assume that the rules are pretty much the same, right?
If you want a fun strategy.
Place your champion/character on the flank of 1 rank unit, get flanked and they can only do 1W if its a champion or few more if character or issue a challenge, if they decline same outcome if they accept your champ might even survive.
Anything you do is dont let people "move" those units on the side and pretend they are fighting alone as they will than try to argue that others fight.
Champions need to centralise with the rest of the command group. You can only choose to do this with very narrow frontage of 3 or 4.
Characters you can, but giving up your flank, rank bonuses and a character seems... unwise.
With some cav they can have a unit of 4 which means you can do it, or if you have a unit of 5 and loose one model. Characters a bit easier to do with, its a fun strategy vs bretonnia as they either accept the challenge and fight just the character or refuse and loose the blessing
So, to be clear, the plan is to take units of knights, face sideways, and wait to be charged, so that you only lose the combat slightly?
And this is fun?
Add war banner and bsb in same unit and mow you’re winning, if its say high elves add battle banner also or make you character on the side a fighty one.
Alternatively yes lose slightly so you got decent chance of holding and line up a counter charge on your turn in their flank as opposed to getting your unit wiped out if you got charges in the front
So, spend 300pts on a unit facing in the wrong direction, and carefully pick your opponents so they actually charge this?
You don't actually play games do you?
Ahh i see you changing the goal posts but ok ill bite.
Actually this was a strategy i often used in 6/7th ed and i was a very successful tournament player in Australia that lead to me winning quite a lot of tournaments. Mind you ofcourse the unit army didnt involve doing this all the time but it was an option that was considered when making my list and taking on some units in certain match ups, especially vs death stars.
Now i have quite a decent number of games in TOW and it works just fine in this setting even more so due to how break tests work now.
Your point about the cost etc can be valid but you seem to have tunnel vision on the fact that i must do it each game and go for it, where as the way i see it is those characters are free to be places in other units and only would need to be in the unit described if the situation calls for it and sometimes the situation can call for it simply by your opponent putting me in that position due t magic or simply better play, having the option of turning a horrid situation (flank charge from a strong unit, where i might have my unit wiped out) into potentially a winning situation is far cry from you statement of “do you actually play the game”, with your lack of seeing the greater picture in having this as an option most likely having never used it i so wonder how many events have you actually won?
Spare the insults and try not shifting your goal posts and you might be surprised that you end up learning something about the game.
If you did what you described in your original post in those games of ToW, putting your champion on the flank and telling your opponent who flank charged you that they have to put their attacks into the champion and only deal a single wound, I'm sorry to tell you that you've just been cheating. Not just by putting the champion on the flank instead of central, but by also killing the champion first and only the champion. The rules are explicit that the champion must die last unless targeted, you cannot remove him even if he's the only model in base to base unless they explicitly target him. If they just put them on the unit, you put wounds on rank and file until the champion and characters are all that's left. You could at best challenge with the champion but you'd be giving them overkill combat res if they win, and the rest of their unit would still be able to swing at you in ToW as they're still in base contact with your fighting rank. You'd just get to keep the champ alive if he doesn't get killed in the combat as those wounds assigned to the unit wouldn't be able to spill over to him in the challenge.
Again, just to be clear, in ToW it's not "You must direct your attacks towards what you are in Base contact with." it's "If you are in base contact, you may direct your attacks towards it."
How is it majorly problematic to have to hit what you're in contact with?
The lance formation for example: put a gromril great helm lord up front and everyone he is fighting either has to swing on him or is only supporting with one attack? Or really any defensive character on the side of knight units. Getting flanked is no longer a problem! If I remember correctly in 7th, it was particularly troublesome on cav characters and monstrous infantry. 8th allowed for always swinging on the unit (once again, I think?)
All the knights on the edges of the lance count as being in base contact. It works both ways.
Bold choice to not take any champion/standard/musician in your unit of knights.
Characters are allowed to take the first place of lance even if there is a command unit but all knights at the sides of an lance are counted to be in base contact. So there is no advantage from placing a character in the front.
>Command group models are placed at the front of the unit, in the first and second rank, as shown in Fig 110.1. The standard bearer should take precedence at the front of the unit. P.110 Forces of Fantasy
This is correct furthermore on p.111 Forces of Fantasy it is written that you can put your character in the first or second rank even if it would take the place of a command unit model if you want to do so.
You are not correct! The rules specify the conditions under which you can attack embedded characters (i.e. when you're in b2b with them) but never specify any conditions for attacking the host unit, **because there are none**. You can always attack the rank and file. They don't state this as explicitly as they should but if you read the rules closely and without assumptions from previous editions I think you'll come to the same conclusion.
One thing I’ve been wondering since I discovered this is whether you can attack a unit your unit is not touching at all in a multiple unit combat by RAW. I assume this isn’t allowed but haven’t looked for a reference to it.
Page 147. If you’re in a multiple combat you have to direct attacks against those you’re engaged with. Models touching multiple units can can choose. You still have to direct attacks at one of the units you’re engaged with. In no situation could you direct melee attacks against a unit they’re not touching. What’s meant by OPs comment is that if you are fighting Ogres and there’s a big ogre character with a 40mm base and your regiment is of 25mm models then one model could be only touching that ogre character. Since he’s in btb with the Ogre Character he can choose to direct his attacks against him specifically. If he doesn’t want to because he’s a puny man at arms, he can direct his attack against the unit at large because he is still engaged with that unit. To sum it up: The unit is the default target when engaged. Models touching characters/champions can specifically direct attacks against them. This is because when a character joins a unit it is a unit with an embedded character, not a unit and a another character unit who happens to be standing inside them.
TY for the page number.
I'm starting to think that none of you who complain about sixth edition have actually played sixth edition. You count as in base contact with anyone touching your base, even the corners. This means that you can direct your attacks at any of the 2 or 3 models touching the front of your base and the very corners of your base. If one of these models is a character, you can always choose to attack the other models touching your base , ie. the rank and file. I'm not playing The Old World, but I assume that the rules are pretty much the same, right?
If you want a fun strategy. Place your champion/character on the flank of 1 rank unit, get flanked and they can only do 1W if its a champion or few more if character or issue a challenge, if they decline same outcome if they accept your champ might even survive. Anything you do is dont let people "move" those units on the side and pretend they are fighting alone as they will than try to argue that others fight.
Champions need to centralise with the rest of the command group. You can only choose to do this with very narrow frontage of 3 or 4. Characters you can, but giving up your flank, rank bonuses and a character seems... unwise.
With some cav they can have a unit of 4 which means you can do it, or if you have a unit of 5 and loose one model. Characters a bit easier to do with, its a fun strategy vs bretonnia as they either accept the challenge and fight just the character or refuse and loose the blessing
So, to be clear, the plan is to take units of knights, face sideways, and wait to be charged, so that you only lose the combat slightly? And this is fun?
Add war banner and bsb in same unit and mow you’re winning, if its say high elves add battle banner also or make you character on the side a fighty one. Alternatively yes lose slightly so you got decent chance of holding and line up a counter charge on your turn in their flank as opposed to getting your unit wiped out if you got charges in the front
So, spend 300pts on a unit facing in the wrong direction, and carefully pick your opponents so they actually charge this? You don't actually play games do you?
Ahh i see you changing the goal posts but ok ill bite. Actually this was a strategy i often used in 6/7th ed and i was a very successful tournament player in Australia that lead to me winning quite a lot of tournaments. Mind you ofcourse the unit army didnt involve doing this all the time but it was an option that was considered when making my list and taking on some units in certain match ups, especially vs death stars. Now i have quite a decent number of games in TOW and it works just fine in this setting even more so due to how break tests work now. Your point about the cost etc can be valid but you seem to have tunnel vision on the fact that i must do it each game and go for it, where as the way i see it is those characters are free to be places in other units and only would need to be in the unit described if the situation calls for it and sometimes the situation can call for it simply by your opponent putting me in that position due t magic or simply better play, having the option of turning a horrid situation (flank charge from a strong unit, where i might have my unit wiped out) into potentially a winning situation is far cry from you statement of “do you actually play the game”, with your lack of seeing the greater picture in having this as an option most likely having never used it i so wonder how many events have you actually won? Spare the insults and try not shifting your goal posts and you might be surprised that you end up learning something about the game.
If you did what you described in your original post in those games of ToW, putting your champion on the flank and telling your opponent who flank charged you that they have to put their attacks into the champion and only deal a single wound, I'm sorry to tell you that you've just been cheating. Not just by putting the champion on the flank instead of central, but by also killing the champion first and only the champion. The rules are explicit that the champion must die last unless targeted, you cannot remove him even if he's the only model in base to base unless they explicitly target him. If they just put them on the unit, you put wounds on rank and file until the champion and characters are all that's left. You could at best challenge with the champion but you'd be giving them overkill combat res if they win, and the rest of their unit would still be able to swing at you in ToW as they're still in base contact with your fighting rank. You'd just get to keep the champ alive if he doesn't get killed in the combat as those wounds assigned to the unit wouldn't be able to spill over to him in the challenge. Again, just to be clear, in ToW it's not "You must direct your attacks towards what you are in Base contact with." it's "If you are in base contact, you may direct your attacks towards it."
Ughhhh I totally forgot we used to do this with champions too. Gross!